Ken Rideout On Why Everything You Want Is On The Other Side Of Hard

because I'm constantly on them." "Can't be easy to be your kid." "No.

“It's not in what they see as intensity and aggressiveness, and I don't want to put this burden”

on them. We have Ken right out. One of the world's pre-eminent master's athletes." A former prison guard Wall Street trader, he has overcome addiction.

He's been put in that fight or flight situation, and he's always picked fight.

"Disit element of me that's tortured and my protective mechanism is to have a hard exterior. All of the hard charging, driving and trying to win and be the best is just an extension of wanting validation that is something missing in my life that I have to do which is." Ken right out, you made it here, you're back in the studio.

On three, this is going to be a targeted conversation where here to celebrate Ken's brand new book called "The Other Side of Hard." You did an incredible job on this book. It's memoir essentially, but it's also interlaced with all of these kind of like life learnings and wisdom about how to approach obstacles and how to get unstuck and we're

going to parse all of that. Before we even go into it, I want to kind of land on the obsession piece right now because so much of the book is about your obsession, your obsession with becoming someone in the world, becoming this master's world champion, winning races, initially it was finance.

This is a moving target for you, but underneath it all, there's always this layer of obsession

that's driving everything. Talk a little bit about your relationship with that.

“I think growing up the way I did around, then people will see in the book around drug”

addicts and basically mediocre to sub-medioker people. And I don't know where I came from. I have a brother who's 11 months younger than me who never went didn't finish high school and never had a job as a career criminal in and out of prison. And I come to the realization through writing the book, like I hated him as a kid, hated

him. I was like, why is this kid behaving like this? Because that was my worst fear. I don't want to be a loser. I wanted to be a winner. I wanted to be respected and what I came to realize is he was just probably had some mental health issues and was dealing with parents that probably didn't have the tools to understand

identifying cope with those problems. And as a result, he was just floundering and being around that kind of behavior and that kind of chaos.

“The personality is what it is. Like it was the same then as it is now.”

Like I was like, I don't want to be mediocre, like being like the people around me scared me because I just saw them going nowhere. They weren't experiencing life. As a kid, I was like adventurous. Like I wanted to like go to other countries and travel and do the things that I ended up

doing, live in London, you know, go skiing and Europe and do these things. And I didn't have any role model for that. And there was no like, I didn't have a friend down the street. The most successful person in my neighborhood was like, the guy was a male man and his wife was a stay-in-home mom, say no, wife, which was ought to me that was like they would like

the model of success. So it wasn't like I was looking at people flying private and driving Mercedes-Benz and I was like, that's what I want. I just wanted a lack of chaos. I wanted the life that I have now.

I literally wanted the life that I've created for myself. And if anything, I would say the obsession or the torture that I deal with is feeling like if I let off the gas and stop obsessing over continuing to succeed, it's like I said every time something good happens.

I can easily convince myself that that was lucky and it's never going to happen again

and I have to stay on the gas and that's something that I'm hyper aware of and have worked on like extensively and spent time. I spent almost a week at the on-site workshops which for people who don't know it's like the Hoffman Institute or bridges, it's like a trauma healing center and it was like an intense five-day eye opener for me because I didn't think I had childhood trauma and even saying

that I don't, I never ever like, I'm almost afraid to identify myself as a victim. I'm not a victim, I'm like, I'm shit happens to me and I can control my reactions and like it doesn't change the fact that traumatic things happen and you know the expression, the most traumatic thing that happened to you, is the most traumatic thing that happened to you, whether it's sexual abuse or getting bullied and for whatever reason my brain

doesn't process trauma very well and I hold on to it and it it like creates on me and going to on-site forced me to sit with my own thoughts without distractions, without a phone.

I think I was naive to what was coming and I was like, I blocked it out of my brain.

“For years I'd have appointments with psychologists and just it's completely out of character”

for me to just forget meetings and not put them in my calendar but subconsciously I would do it almost weekly to the point where I'm like, this is crazy.

I've never had anything like this where this kind of psychosomantic reaction is happening

when I'm like, purposely blocking out the meeting but I don't remember until an hour after the meeting, oh shit, I missed my meeting with my therapist because I didn't want to deal with it and go into on-site and saying like, look, I don't think I have trauma and then sitting with the woman and having her break it all down for me was like a punch in the face that was like really difficult and super uncomfortable.

The way I see it is you definitely suffered a tremendous amount of childhood trauma in my opinion. You grew up essentially impoverished. You suffered abuse, bullying, then there's the addiction piece which is a coping mechanism for that trauma that serves its purpose.

“That's why us addicts kind of end up picking up in the ways that we do and then you get”

sober, you discover running and running becomes a new way to cope with this childhood trauma that you've compartmentalized. In your mind, or in the addict brain, the solution to this problem is just to run more and run further and run faster. You ran as fast as you possibly could. You ran so fast that you became the master's world champion, you know, the fastest 50 year old ever run a marathon and you cross the goby desert and won that race

and all these epic stories. We've talked about on prior episodes and are in the book, but ultimately this is a means to try to control something that's uncontrollable to create certainty as a response to that chaos that you experience. I'm going to control my environment if I'm obsessive enough and I train hard enough, then everything will be fine, right? But it doesn't matter how fast you were, you were the fastest in the world, but you still weren't fast enough

“to outpace your past, which eventually catches up to you. And what's interesting and I don't”

think we really fully explored this last time you were here is the fact that all of this stuff starts to come up in the aftermath of all of your financial and athletic success. You've done it all, you're at the top of the mountain, you've got all the metals and you know, all the stuff. And then you start to sink into a depression, you have suicidal ideation, and you're having, you know, issues in your marriage, like all of these things

are coming up, which must have been very confusing because Ken, you know, like, you're not signing up to go to onsite on your own, like, because everything's great. So I want to understand how all of this stuff started to come to the surface and, you know, what that experience was like and how you made this decision, like, okay, now I really have

to like face this again. I never want to be mediocre. I don't want to be bad at anything

and that includes being a bad husband, a bad dad, a bad friend, like bad to myself, which I my concern for myself always seems to come last. And that's part of the problem and what I realized is just like with getting sober at some point I come to the realization, like, this isn't getting better unless I do something about it. And I wish that it was easy, but you've hit the nail right on the head, all of these things are coping mechanisms

and trying to control the narrative and I'm trying to impress people that I don't even know or I don't even like, I don't know who I'm trying to impress or if it's I'm trying to impress myself. But I'm clearly like trying to fill a void in my life and I realized that just like with getting sober, like, I can't do this by myself. I don't know, I don't know why I'm feeling like this, but I should not be thinking that suicide is like an

answer to my problems. And as a result, I wasn't really having problems with my marriage. I was having problems with myself and unfortunately my wife lives with me and she gets the brunt of my emotional struggles and the way it manifests itself is by trying to control everything around the house. Who left this fucking milk out on the counter? Who left the garage door opener? The garage door opener is like freaking coyotes in the garage,

you know? And as a result of not having control, I would lash out at everyone in the house and I realized like this is I am becoming a person that I'm machined of and I just I had a friend actually a guy about my house room played for the Tennessee Titans, a super nice guy, Chris Spencer. He had said to me that he had gone there to the onsite and I know enough about Hoffman Institute from people like Robin Andrew Cooperman and listening to

people like yourself and talking about all these different options. And I was like, I'm never

It's not like I'm like blissfully unaware and just like trying to feel voids like I'm hyper aware. But like in as they say in AA, self-awareness will avail you nothing. That's one thing to be aware of this and it's a very different thing to actually confront it and do the work and unpack the whole thing. That's a great point in my wife would

remind me all the time just because you've identified what the problem is here right now

doesn't make it right. What are you going to do about it? And then eventually I was like I've got to do something about this and going to onsite was a good for a step but I would be lying if I didn't say if I said it was a cure all but I will say for the week for a few weeks after leaving there I was on like cloud nine. I was euphoric. I was like high on life and eventually like anything if you don't do the work and keep on it and integrate the therapy into your life

it all falls to the way side and and that has to a certain extent happen and going through the process with this book and the anxiety and stress I've been feeling with this book is like that's now on my list of things that I have to do again is like go back for a tune-up so I'm looking at like

Hoffman Institute in different places just trying to do different things because all of the

issues that you've identified are my reality and it's like they're not going to these problems aren't going to fix themselves and to the people that you know how it is when people follow you online they think they know you and they they admire certain things and I love and respect people that like like me I like people that like me but there is a part of me that's like be careful who you like admire like this everyone's going through their own struggles and no

“one's perfect and I think sometimes you know social media becomes like a highlight real of your life”

and it's like look at my life I'm great look at my kids look at these races I'm not out there post in like I'm running right now thinking like how am I going to get through this week emotionally you know and um but like you said identifying the problem and doing something about it at two different things but I am putting together a new plan and I definitely am aware that shit needs to be identified so just here's the question for you can would you rather spend three days

three sleepless nights and three days running across a barren desert trying to win a race or would you prefer to spend three days with your wife in an intense therapy setting around like your trauma and your intimacy issues and whatever else which would you opt for? Well obviously the right answer is to do the work to fix my like not that my relationship needs fixing and we'll get into my wife's cancer struggle recently

cancer battle and my marriage is probably better than it's been in a long time because when we're dealing with like difficulty that's where I thrive so yeah obviously I'd rather run across

“the desert because to me I convince myself whether I believe whether I really believe it or not”

I've controlled the narrative to the extent where I'm like I can't lose I'm going to race I'm going to train like there's no way I can win but I'm going to race like I can't lose so for me there's something fun about like I'm going to figure this out I'm going to get these guys in the end and that's like an uncomfortable challenge but the idea of sitting and like talking about my feelings like we are right now is not fun for me but I but I also want to be honest with

people and honestly I love and respect you and when you ask these difficult questions yeah I'd rather much rather talk about how great I am and how good I am at running and all the bullshit but I know that that's bullshit this is what people really need to hear if they're going through it no one needs to hear about you don't really learn much in winning you just learn like I had a great day when you get that you're asked kicked in life or in race or in any endeavor professional

professionally or otherwise that that's when you learn what you're all about because it's very

“difficult especially when you go through something publicly or professionally where you have to”

deal with setbacks and other people who like stand in their watch and whether you get fired from a job or like not finishing a race or getting divorced it's like and that's what I say to my wife I'm like even when we were struggling I'm like we have to fix this because it's not going to get better we're not going to like oh I'm going to meet someone else and they're going to be a perfect fit like no one's going to be a more better fit for me than my wife the problem isn't her the problem

is like we just have to figure out how to deal with this together and while obviously I always

accept all the responsibility like a true addict you know we both could do a lot of things better and I think that the nice thing about my wife is she's aware of that too she's going through cancer treatment right now breast cancer treatment how is she doing she's doing great cancer free all done with all her treatments she had a mastectomy and now she is just you know they do

and I was just telling you wife Julie about this and I'll come back but come back to the beginning

“but in terms of breast cancer we had best case scenario it was stage one it was early but when you”

hear your wife has cancer for me again wanting to control everything I'm like oh my god this is a death sentence potentially like I'm scared and I'm like the problem in my brain is snowballing I'm like oh my god this is catastrophic but I can't let her know that I have full kids like

what am I going to do like I wasn't I never felt so vulnerable in my life I was like I'd rather have

terminal cancer than have her go through curable breast cancer right now that's in that moment that would have been my choice and and we're feeling sorry for ourselves as I was explaining to Julie for a few days maybe a week and then at some point just like with preparing for a race or something I just looked at and I'm like you know what have this enough is enough with this wait this isn't going to fix itself sitting here crying and whining about this shit isn't going to fix it we need to

like toughen up get with the program and like figure out what the game plan is and bring some like

“toughness and and aggressiveness to the treatment because crying about isn't going to fix it like”

it's happening like it's like being drafted into Vietnam like you go and stop crying pick up that gun and learn how to shoot it because otherwise someone's going to shoot you and that's kind of how and she to regret it was like you're right you're right this moping around isn't going to do what I said you're going to like write your own comeback story and be an example to the I'm getting emotional to our kids and to your friends about like this is what toughness looks like in the face of

adversity and like the choice is yours how you behave right now is going to stay with you for a long time and as someone who has gone to like through events and quit and given up and dealt with the bullshit that comes with quitting it's so much easier to be tough and and and be tough right now and she did it and we I was like I was telling Julie we went to the doctor like here's the plan

and you know it was incredible like tons of people reached out Andrew Hubertman was like I'm

“gonna have this person call and that person call we went to the first doctor's meeting in Nashville”

with St. Thomas ascension and they were like here's the plan boom boom boom and I was like I don't even think we knew they were so confident and everything that they told us happened instantly she was in for MRI the biopsy this that and then two weeks later they're like all right the surgery is scheduled don't think I'll say is they were like really pressing for a double mastectomy and I was like man do we should we take like a less aggressive approach and see what

happens it's stage one there's no nothing to indicate she'll get it again in the long run she got single mastectomy she was in hindsight was really happy that she'd made that decision so then they removed her breast put in an expander and then slowly inflated every day and to my wife's credit we eventually like learned to laugh about it because like she would be getting in the shower and I

be like you know you look crazy she would like you know for the first few days she was like

hysterical like I look awful this is not good but eventually we laughed about it I'm like yeah you look crazy you've got like 120 year old boob and 150 year old boob and I didn't know how else to deal with it but other than to laugh and she laughed about it and now I said you're going to be 52 be a cancer survivor and have new boobs it's going to be great and she can't so free now I'm really happy to hear that I know you you guys have really been going through it but it's no surprise that you know

in a chaotic cataclysmic situation like that you just that's like a dopamine surge like oh now I can here's my here's here's where I come alive and I can attempt to control this and you know create a plan of action and it's like you're you're hardwired to like step in in a situation like that because of the background that you had like the childhood that you had like it's all related yeah well to that point on the flight out here I'm sitting in I was sitting in one row and a guy

right behind me I get up to go the bathroom and an older guy sitting behind me and he and as I'm coming out he's like standing in the in the walk in the aisle but he doesn't like something is often I'm like oh it's going on there and he's like struggling to get the thing he's probably like 78 a little bit overweight and he just has a crazy look on his face I'm like yo you're right and he's like like stumbling I'm like no this guy ain't right and I snatch him up like under his arms

and I'm like yo you're right and he like stumbles into the bathroom like falls onto the toilet and the flight attendant goes oh she's like oh my god do I need medical I'm like yeah you need medical but people would just stand in a round and like I was like on this guy I'm like yo you are right and and it was one of those things like to your point when anytime I've been in those situations with something's going on I'm like who needs help not that trying to be the hero it's just like

my instincts just took over and I was like yo what's going on you know who was sitting right there and watch the whole thing your friend Anthony Anthony's a medic yes yeah he texted me yeah about it yeah

getting he ended up kind of pulling himself together and he was okay and then I was like oh you're gonna have an ambulance for this guy like he's definitely not right and they were like yeah they

“had there a way on the ground so yeah it was scary I think what separates your story in this book”

from other versions of it you know in this genre of you know kind of ultra endurance athlete addiction recovery story is the fact that you had the courage to tell this childhood trauma you know story and it creates this arc because it goes from here are the mindset tools which are very

much like be hard and you know never quit and we're talking about that all the way to the conclusion

of the book which is essentially this this epiphany or realization as a result of all the work that you've done to you know heal your relationship with your past that that that that the real obstacle is the self and you have spent a lot of time in your life like focused on other people in the competition and I need to beat this person you know to overcome my imposter syndrome or to feel deserving or worthy of love you know all of these things that are very kind of like human drives

but to understand like ultimately it's about my relationship with myself and really isn't about all these other people. No that's exactly right this past fall I helped coach the local cross country high school team and some of my talks to the kids like I just would get so so fired up for the kids and I think the coaches in the times were like oh this guy is intense because I would be like tell the kids you know you think that this preconceived notion of like

cross country guys and nerds these people don't know what it's like to be running one two with five with you know 500 meters to go they don't know what that kind of toughness is the toughness that

“you have to find within yourself to get up and run in the morning I was like whatever you think about”

yourself it's the truth if you think you're a loser and a nerd then you probably are but if you think you're tough on your champion then you can be that too I would get so excited talking to the kids and that was the I don't know what got me going on that uh tirade but when I think about the internal narrative and relationship with self I really believe that what you think about yourself becomes the truth and it's something that I've struggled with and when I when I catch myself

getting into that negative self talk how would you take care of your mind and body if you had to take care of your best friend or your spouse or one of your child's bodies for two years I had to take your soul put it in someone else's body that you love more than anything how would you take care of that person and when you think about your life in those terms and like even with regards to

addiction you would never do to someone else what you would do to yourself I would never put drugs in

like my child or my wife or anyone else but I wouldn't think twice about at a period in my life of doing those things to myself this episode is sponsored by Better Help you know I was reflecting this morning on how my life and really the life of my kids are family all together it

“really just doesn't work without my wife she quietly carries so much and I think this is the case”

for women across the board who go wildly underappreciated for their gift to hold space for others while selflessly spinning a zillion other plates at the same time and that kind of emotional labor is very real and it deserves care it deserves support which is why I'm so bullish on Better Help because it provides this place to pause to reflect on the roles that you're playing and to make space for your own well being Better Help connects you with fully licensed therapists

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your emotional well being matters sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/bridgeroll that's BetterHELP.com/bridgeroll this episode is sponsored by Rivian when I think back on some of my fondest memories from childhood 100% of them happen outdoors on mountains in lakes and oceans getting muddy in the local

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“your story is so incredible I don't want to presume or assume that just because you've been on the”

show before that everybody who's watching or listening to this has heard that so I want to give you the opportunity to you know tell it in your own words like a sort of you know truncated version

yeah what we've talked about in previous episodes the memoir is basically of a memoir of my life

from going growing up in Boston in the inner city playing competitive hockey like on all the travel teams it was my whole life um got out of high school I worked in a as a guard in a prison for four years a prison that my stepfather had been in previously my my brother would eventually be in inmate there a couple years after I stopped working there thank god um I worked there with guys like Mickey Ward though this they made a movie called the fighter about him just legendary right

to have touch and bail and yeah yeah just that you were a prison guard to the to him he was a guard with me and he was a guard and his brother Dickie Eklin who was played by Christian Bell was he was with the inmate yeah and Dickie is like a crazy like Dickie is just crazy real life as he is in the movie and uh it's funny like I'm friends with a guy called Mike Lee who goes by being shooter on uh on um Instagram crazy guy but those guys from low will just all crazy

but it was everyone at the prison was like one one like bad decision away from being inmate or or the guards were one decision away from being inmates themselves it was a really crazy environment the guards were like at times for me worse than the inmates it was very crazy environment and I talked about that in the book in in detail but um went to college um paid work they worked at the prison to pay for school I played football and hockey in college eventually going

into my junior year I get cut from the hockey team and that sent my life into a spiral like once that was taken away from me like I very much identified with being a hockey player and in my mind I'm like all right I'm going to get through college and then I'm going to go like maybe playing the East Coast hockey league with my buddies or you know you know perfect world playing like the AHL you know like the right below the NHL even though that was a bit far fetched but in my mind that

was a reality and if I couldn't get there playing I'd get there fighting like I was just like willing to do anything to stay playing hockey so when that was taken away from me I started to like

“experiment with cocaine I think it's always funny to say experiment I started to abuse cocaine with my”

friends and that set off like a three or four year Odyssey with my Boston friends like they these will crazy crazy guys lots of teamsters and different blue collar guys and this is Boston Boston this is Boston Boston I moved to New York and started working in finance and I was hanging out with this guy Mike Peltier who introduced me to the world of finance I was a pharmaceutical sales rep playing in a men's hockey league in Chelsea pairs one of the guys who happened to be on

my team was a guy called Mike Peltier who worked as an inter dealer broker like a broker of

commodities and inter dealer meeting like brokering trades between institutions never

dealing with like retail mom and pop customers it was like in it banking and unfortunately he died 9/11 Mike Peltier's sweet guy Rick French Canadian guy awesome hockey player so we went out one night while in New York I've been there about six months and I said to him at one point I'm like Mike do you know that I've been here six months I've never seen one single fight and he's like why would that be unusual I'm like when I grew up and I don't say this to be like a tough guy like I

know who I am I don't have to pretend to be tough when I would go out of my friends from like

or someone else would be a fight it was like a really really crazy place and this is like not

“in like some don't be barred this was like in fanior hall and like the touristy area like in like”

higher end bars but it was just a super aggressive place even now when I talked to friends from Boston like yeah that was really it's a really unique place in that way that I don't know if it's like people feel so oppressed and aggressive that they're fighting with each other but it was

it was chaos and that was like my reality I never thrived in that I was never like I was like

a normal person I was like oh my god I'm so scared there's going to be a fight but I also had this thing where I'm like well if there's going to be a fight you at least better start throwing punches because otherwise you're going to be of the victim and I didn't want to be the victim even though I was scared like I would tell my kids I know sometimes it's scary when things are about to go down but you just have to learn how to do certain things scared because everyone is scared

no one gets into a fight and it's like not scared so anyway I move to New York meet my

“pelty it tells me they've got a trading assistant job on the trading desk he's working on I get”

that job and I'm getting bullied like crazy by these people which is crazy to say I'm like

boxing for the New York Athletic Club I've worked in a prison I wasn't the kind of person that

was getting pushed around the necessarily but working on a trading desk is like being the freshman on a football team there's a certain amount of hazing that's like kind of customary and accepted but I was not comfortable doing that and eventually like the guy one guy in particular harassed me so much that I slapped him in the face and they fired me right on the spot and I was so naive you just got hired too right there for a couple months and I was so naive I didn't know

we had competitors I didn't know there were other trading desks competing against us I didn't know that I would get two weeks of severance when they told me they were gonna give me like two weeks severance I was like jackpot I was like yes I've got a two week runway to figure something out

“even though I don't know what I'm gonna do I have a degree in sociology and I have no finance”

experience I've been working two months and I don't know anything that's going on and then I was lucky that some guys in Enron heard the story and the guy who was the most senior trader was a Boston guy from Martin's and he loved it and was like hey I called this desk there was another trading desk that competed against the desk I worked on that what did but they weren't very good but this senior trader at Enron was like you all my sales guy and they're gonna hire you and literally

they double I was making 40 grand they hired me within two days making 80 grand and then very quickly they were like okay you knew salary is like 125 grand and then I got hired to go to London to run I got hired by Canterford's Gerald a year before roughly a year before 9/11 but because I had a contract with a competing Wall Street firm they said electricity trading and natural gas trading was relatively no go to Europe London instead of this trading desk for us and it was like a dream job I

mean it was like x-pat meaning they paid my rent I'm talking like the nicest house I've ever lived in at the time I had a brand new Porsche I was like a finance guy I had everything conquered back and forth London to New York and around that time my equals introduced to opioids and I had an ankle surgery got some opioids and as soon as I took them all of my feelings of inferiority all of my fraud complex and posture syndrome which I was struggling with working

in finance like what I was described in earlier with racing every time I would do a big trade or get a job I was like oh my god I'm so lucky they're eventually going to figure out I don't know anything about what's going on I'm just like faking my way through this because I had good

client relationships some living in London and that was the first time I got silver while I was in

London I went to NA meetings over there got silver just white knuckles did and um and run one bankrupt the my life was turned upside down they're like okay that that job's over 9/11 happens at the same time and everyone that I worked with on the trading desk in New York all died like 2300 people the office was on the top floor the World Trade Center so you're employed by canter fits Gerald yeah working for them in London on 9/11 I presume you're at your work because it's later

in the day and essentially you watch in real time as like something like 685 of your co-workers yeah essentially instantly yeah we were on what was that what was that what was that like like being in the office at that time it was so shocking it almost like didn't register it was like you were watching something but it was hard to believe it was real and we have open line of communication with them like a squawk box they call it so you can push a button and speak on a speaker into the

whole trading floor or the specific trading desk that you're looking for so if you're trading interest rate swaps and you need a price in New York you'd push the button and say hey where is this

Lewis says into the world trades center wow that's crazy and then very quickly you see the other

“plane hit and just like everyone else I'm like this is this you know you watch on TV doesn't seem real”

and eventually we're talking back and forth and it's kind of similar and like the phone lines between your office and the New York office are wide open initially very calm like guy because don't forget in 1993 someone lit off a bomb in the in the basement of the in the pocket garage of the world trades center and a lot of the people that were working with us had either been working there then or knew someone who had so it wasn't like oh my god this had happened before

the crazy thing is I had a friend who worked on the 80 the Drew Turnbull who I worked with for years he wasn't at Canada he worked somewhere else but he was in the building in 1990 in 1993 just got out of school and he was on like the 83rd floor so the bomb was off and they're like okay evacuated electricity's out and stuff and you know think about this when you're going to an internal stairwell there is zero ambient light it's pitch black I mean pitch black and I know because during the

“black out in like 2002 of New York City I lived on the 32nd floor and had to walk up and down a”

couple times to get in and out to eat and it was so dark in the stairwell you're trying to count the floors okay it's 10th floor 11th floor and every single time I'd go to the 37th floor and pop out on the roof I'm like how did I miscount by five stories it was that kind of like disorienting so now they're 93 they're trying to get down like 80 something stories it's pitch black in the entire hallway is filled with black smoke you can't see it obviously but you can smell it in this

people are like shoulder to shoulder trying to hustle out of there he said when they popped out into the sunlight he was like every single person like firefighters everything on them was black from the smoke their face their clothes just pitch black except eyes so when it happened when nine eleven happened it was kind calm initially like hey guys get out of there like this looks

and they're in the second plane hits you like yo get out of there and then eventually the

lines went off and you know you're still like oh there's people up on the roof there's people down maybe only some of the stairs are gone you know because obviously the plane went through and jacked up a bunch of stuff and then eventually I mean the stories that came out after it like people that would come to London eventually who'd survived either weren't there or they were on lower floors they'd come there was one guy and orthodox Jewish guy he was like on that you

you had to take two elevators to get to the top so you'd go to a landing like on 80 something and then you'd get to next elevator that would take you to 105 and he was standing with other people on 80 something and when the plane hit like jet fuel filled the shafts of the elevators and the doors open so he's standing to the side the door opens and a frigging fireball blows out and there's another woman who worked at Canterstan in the fireball and golf there but she's

still alive but she has no skin this guy basically carries her down 80 stories with no like

the pain he's like there was I mean guy must have crazy PTSD he's like the pain from this woman as I'm carrying her I'm thinking she's gonna die she has no skin and she survived it was just but there were dozens of stories like this that came out later but when it happened and the buildings went down it was just like no one really said anything it wasn't like screaming it was just like holy cow like this is crazy just like everyone watching it was and then it just turned

into like literally a war zone and at the office because people who survived set up shop in London so everything was trading centrally from London and it was literally looked like like mash it looked like a military setup there were cuts everywhere people working around the clock and then there were some a lot of clients that were like wanted to do business with cancer it's like keep them going and like helped them because they had set up all these kind of relief funds and

“him and it was it was dramatizing but something that I think in going to on site that I”

probably had blocked out a lot of it and didn't really register with me again I never wanted to

feel like war was me so maybe I like put up some defense mechanisms like this didn't really affect me even though it didn't took a little while to kind of work through that but but it was a moment where you realized hey maybe I'm not really valuing this life that I have hundred percent and and I need to make some changes that I was so close for that yeah that's when I got sober the first time and I was doing really well but I wasn't like working the program the

way I should I was like a sober addict and when back to New York and just like you would imagine soon as I had like a hard day of something I would take some more pills and then it would lead to weeks and then I'd get sober for a week and then eventually that was like a year's long Odyssey where I couldn't get sober for a week without help without help of an old patient detox

I'm very much a functioning addict it'd be like someone who was like a hardcore drunk but

“during the day they show up they were like and then they just fun guy who's like oh just happens to”

be out every single night drunk and eventually she catches on realizes like this guy is either crazy or on drugs because this is not normal baby you were you were using when you met her and started to date her yes she only knew you as that version of can exactly who was like like just crazy extreme I would just be like get it and I was when you're not using you're not crazy or extreme no not not not to that extent and I I was also making a lot of money so I would you know I'm

dating her I wanted to so desperately to impress her she grew up in a beautiful family parents are still married all the kids went to college they all get along they're just like the perfect normal family I mean they have their own stuff going on but nothing relative or comparative to what I had seen so to me I was like they have everything I want so to a certain extent it was almost like I want her to be the mother of my kids and I kind of wanted to be my mom too

“in a subconscious way and but I was always aware of that but like you say just being aware of it”

doing something about it doesn't necessarily justify the identifying of the problem so I mean her going through a we break up get back together and because I have money I'd be like hey let's go to the Bahamas oh there's no flights I'll get a private jet and we'd fly to the Bahamas private and this was overwhelming to her because she was working as an actress her parents put her through school but they didn't pay her bills or anything so she was like working as a

sign language interpreter a waitress doing odd jobs trying to be an actress and you know struggling living with a roommate of her best friend and then I come along and I'm like you know at one point we were we were talking when we were first age she's like oh if I if I have a like made a lot of money first thing I would do is go like to Victoria's secrets and by like a hundred pairs of new underwear or something so the close to next day I send a hundred pairs of new underwear I was like

what a you know whatever I could do she she wore a glass she wore she needed glasses for

certain things so I bought her lace accessory and but she was never motivated by money or not like

she doesn't have designer bags she's just not into stuff like that so to her it was very overwhelming and off putting to be like I don't want everything handed to me but my way of showing her love was to give her everything that I always wanted which is you know material like whatever I wanted and I had the means it's also compensating yeah exactly and she saw through that and it made things difficult because in my mind I'm like why are you upset because I want to do

nice things for you and she's like I don't need you to do nice things for me to like like you eventually we were working all out we get married I get sober here and there and we start the adoption process as soon as we get married because we were going to have our own kids but we also wanted to adopt kids and we get matched with a daughter in Ethiopia and at that point I was like that's when I said like I'm going to get sober or kill myself you're chipping at this time at this point right

yeah you're and you're hiding it yes so I'm I'm using opioids but then I'm also using subutex which in my mind is like kind of like I'm kind of sober I'm not getting high and the subutex is like methadone it's just keeping me from like going into withdrawals but that's all it's doing and when we when when I realized this is okay I couldn't do it for myself I couldn't do it for my wife and I was like I cannot bring kids into this because I'm not this person who's like

unstable and like disgracey like I'm in my heart in my like sober state I'm like empathetic I'm like a little more gentle and like on drugs I was hyper aggressive and I went to an outpatient detox facility and you're called parallax where they give you like medically assist they help you like go through a medically assisted withdrawal so you I would check in every morning and they would give me like riddle into stay awake blood pressure medication for the withdrawals and then

Xanx and sleeping medicine to go to bed because it couldn't sleep I'd sleep for a few hours wake up absolutely drenched in sweat I mean like to the point where I'm like the sheets of wet the mattress is wet I'm like going from I mean our bedroom to the gas bedroom and like just sweating through everything it was horrible and around the fourth day you know I write about this in the book around the fourth day I I wake up to the bathroom and pass out blackout from all the

different medication in the withdrawals and my wife finds me unconscious and is like hysterical and I

“just like did she know that you were doing that you were keeping this whole thing secret yes if I”

can get seven days sober with no subject and no opioids I can get a shot of a drug called Vivitrol that's an opioid blocker that will prevent me from getting high for 30 days at a time

and it was like a miracle drug so I had never taken it but I was like oh it's basically now

three days to go and I'm going to get this shot no one's going to be none the wiser and I'm

“going to be sober even if I don't like it I will be able to get high and she finds me and yeah”

and you know if you've ever seen the movie flight where Denzel Washington is like high and drunk and he gets in a plane crash and saves a bunch of people but he's high and drunk when he does it and they're like they know it and he's going to trial and he thinks he can prove he's not drunk and high when in heavens and he's been sober for like six months and he realizes the night before the trial his room at the hotel he's staying at getting ready for trial is cracked open to

the neighboring room and he's had all the booze taken out of his room but he sees the door open and walks in and all you see is the refrigerator full of booze and then the next day flashed the next day and he's walking into court and he's like completely whacked out he's been up drinking and doing coke all night and he gets on the stand and they're like and all he had to do he was going to be found innocent and all he had to do a show up that next day and be like I didn't do it

and he's done and he gets on the stand and he's like yep I did it I was high the whole time I'm high right now and they're like you know he gets sentenced to prison that's kind of the feeling I had when she found me I was like yep I was high I've been like this is the life I've been living these are all the things that I've done and I was literally like yeah I'm a piece of shit I'm like I'm a loser and I'm looking at her and looking at the balcony and thinking like

I'm going to jump off the balcony to get out of here to like escape this confrontation but obviously I didn't and I dealt with it and and I three days later I got the Vivitra all shot and that was like the beginning of my like sobriety I mean I had some bumps along the road but that was like the changing of my life and that was also right around the time I started to like really like get into endurance sports and that became my like new obsession crotch

new addiction and all the things that go along with it and we went to Ethiopia, dropped to my daughter and everything it was everything was good and it was almost like a weight off my shoulders though telling my wife that I what happened because then I felt like I could tell her everything I mean

“obviously I wouldn't tell her I'm like that's what I got high again yesterday but eventually she figured”

it out she would see right through it she'd be like what is wrong with you so there were a couple relapses after that but we're really stuck yeah yeah there's so much shame around relapses but it's part of the process you know I think it's rare I think there are people who just think like well you go in and you get sober and if you relapse like your failure or whatever but the you know the most most people like are relapsing all the time before it eventually sticks

you I do you you identify perfectly though it's like I and I would enter into a severe severe shame storm well just like so disgusted with myself and you realize like that's why

I've never shied away from talking about the mistakes I've made because I think what you just

said is important for people to hear it's not although you don't want to I don't want to tell people like listen I mean mistakes like it's like it's okay like no you definitely don't want to have relapses but I always feel a change of jealousy when someone's like yeah but I got sober and like you know 2002 on this exact date and I'm like I want to have like an exact date when I because every time I would relapse I'd be like I'm not going to keep track anymore because there's

just too much pressure that like attachment to like this is my date or whatever I think it's there's value in that like you know it's important to acknowledge like hey you know this this much time has elapsed since you know I came into the rooms or whatever but there's also a violence with it you know and and that's what contributes to the shame like if you go out you're like oh I just blew it and I'm a fuck up and I lost all that time because all for nothing it's like no it

wasn't all for nothing you know like you were sober all of that time and now something happened and you can learn from that because all we actually have is today right and what we do with this moment

“is the only thing that is important because it's actually the only thing that exists everything”

else is a story right we have a story about our past and a story about like who we want to become or who you know we think we can become or can't become and you know for me sobriety is very much about like deconstructing all of those stories and trying to be a little bit more present

and letting go like I'm so willful like you and I want to control things and I want to basically

channel my obsession to like make this or that happen and just being constantly you know humbled and reminded that like the way forward is really in the letting go and when you're you know when you're struggling to you know to to get pregnant or Shelby gets a cancer diagnosis you're just reminded that you know we have so little control and and you know life is uncertain and you know

yeah the other thing I would say is when I would relapse at least for me it would remind me of why

“I'm doing this because I wouldn't even say like the getting high wasn't the end result it was like”

why am I hiding from these feelings there's something I'm avoiding because what I realize is the only time I would be happy if I would think that's it I'm getting high I would be like almost euphoric from the time I decided to do it until I got my hands on the drugs and then it was all downhill and then I was like why did I do this it's not as good as I thought it was gonna

be and it never is and it just gets worse and with time and enough of those mistakes I've

come to realize like now this all a big lie so when I talk to my kids about drugs because we're obviously when I wrote the book and the kids have already my wife's like you can talk to them about this like you can't just let them read it like you got to talk to them about the diction stuff but I always describe it like this and like listen drugs are a lie like they're telling you that everything's gonna be okay they're making you think things that aren't

true and what you're gonna realize is the things that you're hiding from are not gonna go away they're only gonna get worse and then you're also gonna have to deal with the fact that now you have like a drug addiction problem and I said it's just a big giant lie that you're telling

yourself and trying to impress upon themselves like because obviously they see the attention that

the book is getting and then I'm getting and I don't want them to think like oh my dad these these these these these these these these things and look at him I'm like no no no these these these the things that I'm writing about here are like learn from my mistakes there's other of this there's other ways to cope with this and that would have been a lot less unpleasant for me and they also see me they know they're not stupid they know that I struggle with a lot of

things they know that I could be a lot happier and that's been the most difficult part of this whole journey is like trying to be the person that I want to be when I'm around them and like want to be the example for them of how to deal with difficulties versus being like the angry dad or aggressive dad like that's not the answer and it's that's the thing that I struggle with with when it comes to sports is like I just I can tell them anything but I have to like behave

like in a like a mature man yeah the problem with that though is that if they're watching what you're doing you're setting a standard that's very difficult for them to live so

you're like don't worry about what I it's like your kids are always watching what you're doing

it doesn't matter what you say right right is your point but they see you doing things that most people don't do or or are incapable of doing or just don't have the determination and the internal drive and commitment that you have so how do you deal with that as a as a parent to make sure that like they they don't feel like they have to you know kind of be a version of you no that's a great question and I was just going to ask you do you have any advice because

I'm obviously not doing it right because I don't want this but I don't know how to I feel like sometimes when I'm trying to be something I'm not I'm like I'm pretending like I need to be myself but I've got to find a way that it's like organic and natural for me to be a little more calm and less concerned. I think plugging you in is as like the coach might not

“be the best way to do it because you're then it just you know like your the Ken ride out's coming”

out no matter what you know like you got to make sure they feel supported and that you're there for them and all of that but there's a great one you know when all that when all that like you know go harder stuff starts coming out like I don't know maybe that's in service to them I don't have any answer to that I'm not a psychologist. No I am there's a great quote from it's like a meme from a Theo Vaughan where he's describing his dad and he's like a great guy threatening to kill me a

couple times other than that awesome so I put it like a text on a thing of me like train exercising with the kids like in the gym and running with them like how was it having your dad as your coach great guy threatening to kill me a couple times other than that awesome. Yeah as somebody who is public facing and transparent about your your past with addiction when you get an email or a DM from somebody as I'm sure you do like hey Ken I'm inspired by

your story I just you know I can't get off the oxy or I've been you know I've been on the viking in for 10 years and I don't know what to do I'm at the end of my rope like what should I do like I'm sure you get a lot of those messages right like what is the advice or the council that you give. I typically say that for a step is the hardest and asking for help is the hardest thing and I would say I'm not a drug counselor but I'm going to connect you on a DM right now is that

“Clark I release recovery and the best thing you can do is talk to people that have the tools to”

hope you get through this because you've ignored essentially this is dependent on the person

like I couldn't do it on your on my own and the best thing you can do is ask for help and I've had

“a long term relationship with Zach Clark and a formal relationship with the guys that release”

recovery in New York which is like a rehab center sober living facility just a full service addiction treatment service and they've been great if you don't have health insurance and if you don't have the means to get into treatment they'll provide it for you they have a non-profit like

but really I when I get those kind of messages it I always treat it with incredible sensitivity

because I'm not an addiction counselor I haven't had the best you know I I'm like not the picture perfect like sober person in the sense that I haven't had this like clean like upward trajectory of like a good sober and then never look back like I've made all the mistakes possible but I just emphasize speaking to the right people taking take continuing to take responsibility for yourself and most importantly like keep going no matter what even if you continue

to make mistakes like every day you get a day a chance to start over and the only person that's as you know with an intervention the only person that's going to get you clean and sober as yourself and the fact that you're even reaching out you know they're like I think I have a problem I think I need to do this I say if you reach out to me and tell me you think you have a problem you don't need to think anymore I can guarantee you have a problem which is fine and I've been there

it's not about giving advice or being a psychologist or an addiction medicine specialist

“it's about sharing your experience like that's what we learn right you're not there to tell them”

what they should or they shouldn't do or to take their inventories just like well this is what I did

you know or here's what happened to me and the fact that you have this set of life experiences

gives you a level of kind of credibility for that person that you know inspired them to like reach out to you but yeah it's not like there's any one way as some of you know I am in a very different season of training that I've ever been in before I'm rebuilding slowly intentionally after this spinal fusion surgery that I underwent this past May and I'm learning what it means to be patient with my fitness and how to prioritize sustainability

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about your kind of all or nothing approached a life this obsessive kind of relationship that you have with the things that um excite you and essentially this boils down to this mantra of winner die trying like is this is this still your your your go to mindset strategy the whole expression makes it sound like I don't care if I die and I definitely don't want to die but

“that's the only way that I can get the most from myself in the reason that I know that as I've”

explained here before is going to Hawaii the first time in qualifier for the current higher man world championships and getting there and getting out on the run and quitting like a loser I was so angry I'm so angry at myself thinking about it now just like how could you possibly quit just because things were hard in the pain that I carry from that not just that decision but just in general I take in the easy way out using drugs as a crotch like those kind of

things piss me off that in hindsight that I did those and the fact that I can't change it frustrates me and that's something that I'm trying to come to terms with but and again I want to emphasize

that I don't have all the answers I would never advise other people to take my advice or to take my

approach but that has been the only approach that I have found to get the things that I want to get into in it to win the way that I need to win because I don't see myself as someone who's overly talented overly intelligent I wasn't like you know when I got to New York it's not like the walls though finance community was like oh my god thank god Ken's here it was like oh this idiot like in my mind I'm like I had to basically like kick down the door no one was opening it for

me and same thing with running it's like if I don't go there with that mentality I can easily convince myself like take it easy man just participating is fun and I just have never found that like that space where I'm like just participating is fun although I will say I'm closer to that than I ever have been I'm getting old and I do love the running community I love going to the races and seeing people like I genuinely do and when I bring that mentality it's like

until the race is over like I do not want to like be nice I don't want to talk I don't want to hang out I don't want to like take effin selfies I want to like kill myself in this race and then when we're done I'm like everybody's best friend it's sort of anathetical to the conclusion of the book being like the competition is with yourself because the idea of winning is really kind of about other people and I would say that you have an unhealthy fixation with other people

and being better than other people and that speaks to maybe an underlying insecurity or like imposter syndrome look where addicts were sensitive people you know we feel like we don't belong we feel like we have to prove ourselves and we compensate and have to go out and do outrageous things just to feel like you know we're deserving of love and attention like I get all of that but I think

on some level it is a little ricky bobby you know like you're either first or you're last you

know you know kind of thing and I can see why like it worked for you and on perhaps some level continues to work for you like it's a very kind of binary thing like this is not it's like you're either drinking or you're sober you know it's like it's a light switch like I'm going to win or I'm going to die trying and it's an accountability tool like I'm going to hold myself accountable for yes for this and that doesn't mean that I'm going to win but I'm committing to

“giving everything that I have towards that goal that's how I feel going to the races like I want to”

get the most out of myself and yes you're right that I want to win but my fixation isn't necessarily with a person other than myself like there's a part of that's not true there's a part of me get fixated on these and there's stories in the book out this guy you know rub me the wrong way so I'm going to beat him now you get fixated on these other people and all about that other moments in the moment you can get on my radar and all of a sudden I'm like you could have just

left me alone now but it's like your brain needs that you need an enemy you know but I'm looking for an enemy and that like locks you in but I don't feel like I have any enemies in reality like

I never I go to a race knowing who the other competition is but I never want to like I never

wish ill will on people that I like don't know for sure I mean I have like I wouldn't say I have any enemies I mean I have competition I think it's like a device it's a way of activating that part of your brain like it's like like fully focused oh in the moment if we're like we're at one and two in a race yeah then I'm like I'm going to kill this guy like yeah for sure but as soon as

“the race is over I'm like dude good job you should when I went by you should have jumped on me”

not everybody has the can write out cranium you know I think you're wiring strong for that you know to me I think you you know because of your unique set of life circumstances like your brain was wired to be this very intense person and and you know lens itself to this type of like

is the advice to the average person who's not going to run the goby desert who feels stuck wants to

make a change knows knows they need to make a change but you know maybe they grew up you know what they maybe that perfectly fine childhood and they grew up in a you know loving home in suburbia and they don't have that you know they're not a they're not an addict they're not a recovering addict they don't have that like edge that you have like how do you counsel that person I would say you don't have to bring intensity to your life to get up and do something discipline

to every day but I would say that there's like a quote from L.A. to keep choggy where he's talking about discipline and how discipline will set you free it's like the person with discipline has freedom the person who doesn't have discipline is like tortured or prisoner to their emotions like my emotions tell me to like not work out today and have donuts and just be lazy which cool once in a while is cool personally for me like one bad decision can lead to in my mind can lead

to two because it has one day of getting high when I would get sober for a few months and then I'd get high for a day it would be like two weeks of being high 24/7 so like my brain doesn't work like that but the other thing that I would say is there's so much gaslighting in the world like everyone's telling oh this is okay that's okay but deep down we all know what to truth this it's like if you wanted to lose weight well prior to GLP ones if you wanted to lose weight you knew you

had to eat less and exercise more and it's like I'm looking for that like diet hack and there's like a whole industry about here's a healthy snack here's this how about this just eat less and work out more I know it sucks definitely suck getting sober sucks but it can be done and there's a

million examples of how people have done it and I would say that there are lessons in the book about

“how I did all those things that I don't think you have to be a savage to set some realistic fitness”

goals without you help you have nothing like you really do and it's your number one responsibility in your life is to take care of you when ritual wakes up in the morning no one is telling you you have to eat a vegan diet and you have to have this if you wanted to be like you know what I'm having a whole f and cake or I'm having a box of donuts because they taste good you only person controlling those decisions is you it's the same thing with staying sober it's the same

thing with getting along with your wife it's like all of these things require some form of discipline and if you can learn how to harness that and take care of yourself to me the greatest thing ever is showing up and being in good shape and having people be like wow you really look like you care about yourself yeah it's reflective of how I like take care of my business but when you show up disheveled and out of shape it's kind of like do your number one responsibility is to yourself like

let's go and I love people that are trying and I know it's not easy for everyone but it's also doesn't have to be as hard as you making it out to me so what is the tool that you use most frequently to stave off that voice in your head that's trying to lead you astray you called the beta voice

“that's constantly haunting me it's for me it's as simple as discipline and I think we can”

we can talk around and around and beat it to death and overanalyze but at the end of the day it's like if you can't beat accountable to yourself how are you going to show up for other people it's like if I don't take care of my health and wellness mental and physical like at some point my kids are going to have to take care of me anyway I'd like that to be as long in the future as

possible like the idea of you know I heard someone say a man has two lives the first one is

when they think they're going to live forever and the second one starts when they realize they only have one and that I'm in that stage right now where I'm like I'm like this is coming to an end like I'm no one I'll get out of here alive and I have four kids that I care about more than anything in the world and the idea that they are eventually going to have to take care of me scares me and the idea of me that I'm having to take care of me sooner than absolutely necessary like to

I'm very old like I don't I don't want that so there's and there's maybe an element of fear there too or I'm like oh I gotta keep taking care of myself and obviously you don't have to be as motivated as I am or as obsessive about health and wellness as I am but there is an element of accountability to yourself that I just don't know what to tell you it's like if you're in college and you don't have discipline to study like why would you expect to be on the deans list unless you

are like a savant or a genius you know what I mean it's like that's your responsibility you just

“you have to figure it out it's discipline is the only way to get that you know as well as anyone”

that this boils down to willingness again like self-awareness will avail you nothing like anyone who needs to lose weight or who is out of shape name your you know maladaption

willingness problem you have a lot of willingness for me willingness comes and goes like

“willingness is like this energy field and the way I think about it is you have to court it kind”

of like the muse but you can't just make somebody willing you know but I can't convince somebody to be willing like you we see this all the time and like the rooms of recovery like hey you're not willing you know if you're not willing to do anything different like there's no reason for you to be here and you can tell that person all day long and do as many what do they call those interventions on them as you want but you know until that person decides that they they're willing to make

that change for themselves it's all like hot air it's not gonna do anything do you have any experience or advice to the person who struggles with willingness like they know they need to make

this change they don't need to be told that you know that they need to make it they don't need

to be shamed they don't need more information what they need is willingness but you can't give that to them right like there's that thing in a where it's like well you just need to go out and do more research like it's a very kind of like detached you know unemotional thing like well come back when you're when you're ready you're clearly not ready right now the same way people don't respond to interventions until they're ready to do it themselves is the same it's the same exact

emotion I think with with getting in shape and accountability and fitness and all the things that go along with it is like if I had a magic answer to make people willing to take care of themselves

“we had some mystery box it's a mystery box but that that's why pain and suffering is so vital”

because these are the like catalysts or you know that ignite willingness you know they're the

things that like when you're in enough pain or you've suffered enough then suddenly you're willing to do something you want before right and why these experiences that we have in life that are painful or even when we volunteer for suffering it's because it's so deeply related to our relationship with willingness you know it it it it it it brings that to the surface well I would say this is like if you're not willing but you know you need to make a change sometimes the best thing you can

do is reach out for help to the appropriate like parties or someone that has is doing someone that has gone through similar struggles which is why a and and and make so much sense with people because you're hearing their shared experiences because what you realize is that everyone has so much in common regardless of their background and my 14 year old son is man he's going through it he's like you know going through puberty and he's just a ball of emotions and it's like the hardest

thing that I've dealt with in a long time and the on Sunday he must have been having like the Sunday scariest and was all down in the dumps and his grades weren't great so I was like dude I got to take the phone I got to take the computer out of your room and you know he's like obsessed with making videos he's now taken flying lessons and he's very obsessive when he's into something and I'm like I have to take these things because you can't do it and he was down at them so I said come on let's

let's go take the car to the car wash and we'll talk and as we're talking I said to him like having a hard day yeah and no words you know he's very just and they're like listening like it's so difficult and I'm like buddy the same way I had to get off of drugs I had to realize I can't do this by myself how you think it's going for you right now it's like not good I said right sometimes when our lives are on manageable we have to just accept the fact that

I'm not doing I'm not doing good at this I need help and I've had to do it your moms had to do it sometimes we need to just realize like hey how's it going on you don't know not good I can't do it by myself you're in that space right now but the good news is the thing just struggling with like you're imagining everything like you'll you have everything going for you you have a clean slate lots of good things come I like I heard Andrews human in the other

day saying it's all internal like when you win a race or something good happens someone doesn't sprinkle dopamine on you and I was explaining that to him I said the emotions that you're feeling like you're imagining a lot of things right now like you're depressed about something like yeah there's might be a chemical imbalance but recognize like you're imagining a lot of these things like school socks this socks instead of thinking this is great I get to start over again

Monday across seasons here it's going to be fun you're in the eighth grade you're one of the older kids you're going to have a good season I said you gotta like tell yourself all the things

“that you have to be thankful for thank god moms cancer is like short I mean imagine if she was”

really sick and like going through it and like people die from this and I said well we're good and I think it got through to a little bit of it is it is difficult it's a hard age it's it's so hard to be in the adolescent or or teen these days like you know I just I have so much compassion for

or high school with social media and everything and the toxicity of what's being you know communicated

through those screens it is very difficult they're inundated with you know so many challenges as a result of that that we didn't have to and it's it's it's really difficult I mean what he's going through isn't you know he's not alone like this is particularly with like young you know young boys young men like that like it's a big problem is he looking at the looks maxing stuff he putting out an episode on that it's just total insanity and the looks looks they get like the whole idea that like

“the only thing that matters is how good looking you are and all of that that whole trend on social”

media right now the difficult thing is he doesn't really communicate with me like that my kids are

so different all I have four right I have a daughter who's 15 and then I have boys 14 12 and 10

and they are so wildly different it's like for completely different aliens in the house and everyone is in a different stage of like maturity and a different stage of development and yes to us he I can be very judgmental too and like obviously you know they see me away they'll be easy to be your kid no it's not and it's very difficult for me to see them go through that especially the little one he he lost a couple of um I get so sad thinking about it he lost a couple of wrestling matches

and he was so destroyed and it like it was like devastating to me because I'm like I know that he's bummed to think he disappointed me and I'm like and I say to him like dude he realized

“the only thing I care about is that you're trying and how can you be the best we haven't been”

the worst yet we've only been wrestling two years that guy has probably been wrestling for seven years and he I mean he got mauled but the kids were like really good I'm like dude you don't have to be a rocket science to look at that kid right now it'd be like he's been wrestling for years you barely like even how to put your freedom wrestling shoes on but it was so hard he was devastated I mean really devastated but he kept getting back up and going back out for the next match

and we went home and I was like I had to take him aside and it was it was really hard because as I'm talking about this I'm getting choked up myself twice I'm talking to him and I'm like I just want you to be happy and try hard I don't care about you don't you don't have to be the best but I know that he feels pressure because when I go to do something I like I want to win

“and they know that and I say to him but I've said like dude you've seen me lose more than I've won”

like you only know the win the wins because they like get out more attention but how many times have I gone to races and got killed a lot and man it's it's really hard yeah yeah the can ride out mindset and obsession you know doesn't doesn't how does that measure up when it comes to parenting you know like that's even if you're seeing all those things they're seeing how you behave that's right and they're measuring their own you know kind of output and effort against that and you know

if they have a shred of that DNA strand that you have of imposter syndrome or insecurity it's only going to like you know exacerbate that so that's a that's a hard one it's um it's incredibly hard because it doesn't matter how many times I tell them those things I made a post the other day about this my kids hear some of what I say but they believe everything they see and what they see is intensity and aggressiveness and I'm aware of that and it like breaks my heart which is why I get

so emotional thinking about it because I don't want this for them I don't want my kids to have my personality or my aggressiveness like I don't like I said earlier I don't profess to have the answers I'm I'm surviving I'm not like this is the way to do it run through everything I'm that that's not my that's not my conscious mindset that's like my defense mechanism for a lot of other like issues that I'm dealing with but to your earlier point it has served me well in terms of like

getting this book done and in all things that go with it you know these these relics of childhood trauma become superpowers and go to strategies and defense mechanisms that not only

allowed you to survive they basically created you know this larger than life life life they have

empowered you to like great heights at the same time these things are Achilles heels you know they like like your greatest strength is your greatest weakness so like what gave you all of these things is the very same thing that can take it all away and destroy it and that tension you know like I'm familiar with that like how do you reconcile those two things but I think and this is like a credit

me is that the most important thing like the priority is to heal those childhood wounds so that

you can show up as a your most self-actualized self for your spouse and your children and to interrupt that generational pattern of trauma and abuse so that it stops here and I think that while everyone's celebrating you for all the marathons that you've run and for the goby desert race and and you know all these other kind of like adventures that you've been on the most courageous thing that you have done and are continuing to do is to heal those wounds in the interest of Shelby

and your children that is your Mount Everest this is the mountain that you're climbing and it's very clear in the book that you realize that you recognize that and you're taking that challenge on seriously yeah it's did like what you said about the Achilles heal it's like not only is that my Achilles heal but it's like for all the successes and wins that are aligned in the book

“the only thing I have assess over is the Achilles heal oh my god I got to fix this I got to fix this”

and the running is really like your willfulness isn't going to fix it and then there's no amount of running

or no number of race victories that's going to resolve that because the solution is is almost the

opposite it's like everything in life it's serve you for a period of time that's where then it doesn't because you've grown past it so your addiction to opioids worked until it didn't and you needed that at that time in order to survive what you were going through and then it played its part and you were done and you struggle to overcome it but you eventually did then it becomes running you know running becomes a way of and it moves your life forward like I'm not denigrating it like I'm right

with you buddy but at some point it's like okay how much are you growing and learning by doing this like you can you can you can keep running races the rest of your life but you know it's it's it's diminishing returns at this point and I think the universe like delivered you that message when suddenly you're depressed and you're like why am I feeling this way everything's great okay that's not going to work anymore now we got to go over here and we got to do this and it's not as

sexy as like running medicine you know what I mean it's messy and it's you know behind closed doors and rooms and it's hard to there's no stopwatch so you can't you you're not racing against anyone you can't really judge how well you're progressing and it's really just up to you you have to hold yourself accountable to this and you know it's not something that plays out on social media or that you're going to get likes and accolades and you know like get externally validated for

“but it is the most important thing yeah well you're right that's why I really haven't”

run any races I mean I ran the last and half marathon just because I was like I got to get to at least set some goals I'm just going through the motions and it's like I do love the process of getting ready even though I'm like not nearly as like fit as I've been but I haven't really competed in a real race since like the Chicago marathon in like 23 when that the age group world championships but since then I haven't really done anything and I and to you but you describe

it perfectly like I'm desperately trying to get to the next chapter and in realizing like this is I do know running is not like I don't want to feel like it's like this performative thing which is what it was becoming is like initially I was running to get sober it was like my own personal thing and I was getting faster and I loved it and then I started to get recognition for it and

“became like a performative and almost like for other people but to your point it's like the”

willingness versus able like am I able to do anything I want but am I willing and that's basically like the next chapter that I'm on to is like all right what am I going to do next to like get to the next like level of maturity here because running isn't it right I've like exactly you said I've maxed out the running of like drugs didn't work running ain't going to get me where I need

to be you know and there's always another a longer race or a crazy or you know like you

can be on that treadmill for the rest of your life yeah right I'm like what are you actually getting out of that that's right what in your mind is the difference the differentiator between the person who can hear something reads something watch something like this podcast here's you say whatever and then goes oh yeah okay I'm going to do that and then they do it and they change their life versus the person who just can't they they know what they need to do and they just can't

instead of this time thinking that you want to do it pick up the phone call someone just take

“one step in the right direction it becomes contagious and it's like it all of these like sayings”

and expressions sound corny and cliche like the journey of a thousand miles starts with one step yeah that the gold be much seems insurmountable but I have what some point I was just like well let me just show up on day one and start getting after it and eventually you're in day two it's like being an onsite I was laughing with my roommate was Eric Decker the NFL receiver who's like become one of my closest friends in Nashville and we're in the room together with another guy

with another older guy three of us in a room together I'm like I can't believe I have three roommates and I'm like 50 years old like I can't believe I'm here because I was like I was in jail and yeah like we're old men yeah like talking about yeah exactly so we're in the room together but we were laughing because I had like the the date they they give you the schedule and it's in days in blocks and like the calendar has like block here then we got this and I'm crossing them off

like I'm in prison I'm like guys last day we only have three modalities and we're out here and they were laughing and I was like you know weird way as I was driving out of the oh my god I was in a emotional mess driving home calling my wife because I hadn't been able to use the phone add so much to say to her but as we're leaving it's like one of those things where

when people ask me like how was on site I always say it would be like this you're back's jacked up

how was your back surgery it sucked but guess what I'm better now but if I didn't go through that back surgery I wouldn't be to the point I am now like doing pushups and we're looking out every day at 430 in the morning I'm so proud of you by the way I love seeing your workout videos

“I'm serious I can't imagine anyone is fine to any of it I think it's so boring”

I like it anyway to me it's inspiring because I know how much you suffered with that back so when I see you doing pushups to me because I know if I couldn't work out or run because my back was jammed up and then it got fixed and now I'm doing 14 pushups I see everything I'm like yes he's doing it I feel genuinely happy for you that's my part of my therapy is like

having friends like you and Rob Moore and Zach Clark and some of the other guys that we've

mentioned today is like having friends that I like genuinely love and want to see them succeed is a new experience for me in the last like 10 years call it where I've been comfortable enough with myself to like genuinely I think before I was almost so insecure that I didn't want acknowledge that someone might even be better at anything but now to have friends that I want so desperately to see succeed that I can feel happy for other people and their successes has been

life changing for me because I feel like I get to participate in so many wins because when I see my friends when I'm like yes we're doing it and I feel a certain extent I feel a version of that when I win myself because I know that I have some friends that are really happy for me and there's a part of me that really feels like I'm caring everyone with me when I'm doing these events good batter and different when I win like the goal we march I feel like oh we did it I feel like

I won for everyone that's kind of been on this similar journey that's friends with me who what is your relationship with happiness are you a happy person is being happy important to you yes but I try to reflect I try to think more about like being at peace because happiness is like an emotion that comes and goes whereas someone who's peaceful and like living in gratitude is like I look at someone like Mike Polesner and I feel like a tinge of jealousy I'm like he seems

so at peace I'm like conflicted all the time I called him when I was going through some stuff with the recently that you and I've talked about when I was frustrated with some other situations and I called him and I'm venting and ranting and raving about and he's like can relax it's all going to be fine and I was like I know you're right I'm like I just I hated a bothers me but he's

“like at peace so I think of when I think anytime I catch myself wanting to be happy I think more about”

finding peace and because I have moments of happiness every day I look at my kids and I feel happy but if I'm in a bad space I look at my kids and I see anxiety because I'm like oh I know my daughter is struggling with this so that and I was talking to Julia about this it's like man having being a parent is by far harder than anything I've ever done like living and dying with their emotional struggles is so difficult for me and something that one of the things that I

want to work on when I get to my next stop on the therapy train the therapy journey is like realizing that the kids are going to be all right I don't have to like be in control of their emotional like their emotional journeys you know I don't have to wear their emotional like baggage like they're going to have good days bad days and when I was in on site the woman was like well how

had trauma and and I was like my kids could never have gone through the things that I've gone

through and she was literally like why would you be special like if they were in it they'd go through it whether they like it or not what are they going to do speed like I want to get off the ride now I don't want anymore which is how sometimes I would describe my own life whereas a kid I was like

“I'm on a ride at an amusement park I don't want to be honored anymore let me off that's how my life”

felt with living in the house I lived in where I was like guys I don't want to be on the Turkish twist anymore I'm getting nauseous like stop the ride was it just like anger and fighting or was it like alcoholism like what was going on my in my house my mother and stepfather would smoke weed every day and in uh you know 80s and 70s and 80s like that was not acceptable that was like hippies and like I have a different view on on weed in general now I'm not a weed person but I have

a different view uh similar to alcohol but as a kid I was like oh my god because weed wasn't like something that was like cool I was like these people at the generates and then I had my uncle who lived with us downstairs when my grandma was shooting heroin it was just like I don't want to be around

this I was never attracted to drugs I had contempt for everyone that used drugs which is crazy

that I then found myself in my own you know addiction cycle but um on top of that it was like very aggressive my mother and stepfather fighting all the time usually usually screaming and yelling but occasionally physical and then my brother just like literally invites every single day and then as he got older cops at the house all the time he had a motorcycle which is fucking crazy that it's my grandma the bottom like a legitimate like ninja motorcycle and um he just he was hanging out with

drug addicts and other junkies and it was just madness it was never any stability all I wanted to do is be home when no one was home it'd be like oh my god peace and quiet and it was never that so now I like peace and quiet like when someone rings the doorbell in the dog and we have two dogs my wife as two dogs and they stop barking I'm like get those dogs out of here I don't do well with like loud noise or someone slams a cabin and I'm like who slams that cabinet it's like a gunshot going off

I'm like my trauma response is immediate and instant yeah I mean that those triggers are installed deep in you those buttons man so when you like sit down and do like an inventory on your behavioral patterns or like like what's what's coming up like what's the thing that is

“inflamed right now or that keeps happening that you know you need to work on but maybe haven't”

started to yet I think all the things we've talked about about being a better dad and being a little bit more um patient and at peace around the house is something that is is pressing right now but I will say the culmination of the book and the publication on March 10 all of that stuff is like coming to a head I'm like it's been it's been building for so long that it's like not that it's super anxiety inducing but it is and it's just like I'm so nervous like anxious just about the

release I wanted to be I wanted to go well and I just because I have you know this deal with um Simon and Schuster I have an agent I just want to like represent everyone I want people to like it and there's I'd be lying if I didn't say there's that that feeling that you know that I struggle with of like wanting people to like it and like being a normal being trolled by people that I don't really care about their opinion but I let them invade my peace and uh so here's the

thing dude first of all uh I understand all of those emotions and desires and and uh aspirations

“for the book but you wrote a great book I said you should be proud of the outset but you corrected”

me correctly by saying you know it's more like gratitude um you've already done it yeah you have done the thing you have you have created this expression of your life and it's gonna go out into the world and you have no fucking control over what's gonna happen dude it is just uncertainty from dawn to dusk and there is nothing that you can do to exert control over it and that's a very uncomfortable place for anybody but I sense particularly uncomfortable for you right so I think

this is like I'm gonna watch this like a spectator before I'm gonna be like let's see how this goes because listen there's every reason why it's gonna be celebrated and you know it's gonna be

by critics who aren't gonna like it yeah like that's just how it goes like when you go into the Coliseum and you you know show up in public that goes with the territory so I think for you it's all about detaching from all of that and learning to just accept that that's part of the process and it's almost like God the universe whatever you call your higher power is delivering you this challenge and opportunity to grow because you do have this thing with external validation and

other people's opinions we all do but like this is a flashpoint for you that's right and this experience is gonna is gonna really like you know like it's just this is like an AP course in that right that's right because it's there's gonna be a lot of a lot of opinions out there and you can't manage them and if you start getting into fights with people in the comments sections and you know like letting your lower impulses like drive this it's gonna be a fucking disaster but if you can be a

master of your own emotional being and approach all of it with gratitude and a degree like a

greater degree of equanimity it's gonna be an amazing experience because you've already done it like

you wrote the book you wanted to write it's a fantastic book and everything else is just a rollercoaster ride that you're not you know driving you know what I mean and so can you enjoy it or are you going to be the guy who's like reading every everything that comes out about it reading every comment refreshing your Amazon page like the obsessive you know version of you like I know like I know this

“right like like that's what it's gonna want to do like the beast in you you know is gonna want to do”

all of those things and I think the challenge is can you can you make that a different experience for yourself that's the all great points the one thing that really resonated with me is can you be the master of your own emotions and that to me of all the things you said that's what one thing that resonated with me where I was like yeah that's the next challenge I'm gonna learn how to master all my emotions and I will say the one nice thing is that I've gotten over the years with experience

in doing like the podcast that I did with Teddy Alas and now having my own is I have become better

at like not getting deep in the comments and the one thing that I never very rarely do is ever

respond to negative comments because I realized like when's the last time you left a negative comment for someone you didn't know I realized like these people like that's I don't know people that leave negative comments because who would waste their time sometime I was talking to one of my neighbors and they're like oh so and so I live in this community in Nashville and the neighbors are saying oh this one has a problem with this one and I said can you imagine

having enough time and enough like free spacing your brain to be worrying about neighbors fighting

“with each other like how do these people these people have nothing going on and that's how I”

feel about comment negative commenters is like who the hell has time to watch strangers on the internet and then leave shitty comments about them about other men who are just out there trying to like get it done I'm gonna clip that yes little paragraph that you just said there and when you call me mad about something I'm gonna just hit play on that playback to you I have done better at that with dealing with comments from people I don't know the definitely the book reviews

but the book reviews so far have been excellent publishers weekly printed a really good one that I like felt super proud of because at the end it was like what you get from after I forget how it says after can describe says like when after when it's not said in a bragging way it's just a matter of fact way what you realize is that he doesn't think he's special and it's just like a reflection of hardworking grit however it was written it made me feel good I was like yes

because I don't ever want to talk about how I want this and I want that like look at me I'm the best

yes you want to be the best and you want to win but I never feel like

I'm special otherwise I wouldn't be here telling you all like friggin problems I have with myself I'm just highlighting all of great things that I did which so what is the core message that you want the reader to take away from the book I want the reader to know that anything that you

“want to do in your life is possible and if you think that I know that I have achieved some”

extraordinary things but I'm far from an extraordinary person I like a very physically average person within within above average mindset when it comes to setting goals and those things are avail everything that I've done is available to anyone nothing in there required a special skills that I was important with like awesome genetics that wasn't going to I wasn't a threat to play any division one

a family there's stories about how I was able to achieve all of those different things successfully

“in the book and if nothing else I think that there's very entertaining stories about how I did them”

we've talked a lot about childhood trauma but I feel like we're kind of dancing around getting down to the nitty gritty of what it actually is inside of you that needs to get healed and fixed we've got the addiction we've got the bullying and the childhood abuse and the opioid addiction but beneath it all like what is the thing that is animating you and that needs to be repaired. I think if I had to boil it all down to kind of one thesis statement I would say that and it

pains me to say this and I want to be sensitive because you readers will see throughout the book like my parents didn't do a lot of things right but I also don't want to like just smash them up in the book and be negative towards other people there was a lot of things that Michigan I wrote in that book that I went back and took out and I'm like this doesn't add to my story to say look what else they did doesn't add to the story but it will devastate them even though it's happened I just

“it's not in my nature to just hurt people unnecessarily and if I think I had and with that being said”

I think my father who had me when he was 20 so he was young and inexperienced and didn't have probably the best upbringing himself he was adopted and I would say that he probably got a lot of his validation through my sports he was not happy with my brother obviously being you know struggling

with what he was struggling with with mental health not into sports at all he was never athletic

and my father very much identified with sports not that he was like a big athlete himself necessarily he played some sports I think in high school but I think that that's where I always got my validation was trying to like impress my dad which it pains me to say because I don't really want consciously I don't want that to be the case but I think that I would be it would be naive

“for me not to acknowledge that and I think maybe to a certain extent all of the hard charging”

driving and trying to win and be the best of different things is just an extension of wanting validation from my dad in slash the world and the reason I get so emotional talking about my own kids is because I don't want to put this burden on them and I think in writing this book and talking about all these things and sharing this experience even with you now it's part of me wanting to like close that chapter and be like I've done everything I need to do I don't need

to impress anyone else the only people the only really opinions of me that matter are my own and the people that live in my house and I know they love me so I think that that's been really the kind of overriding theme or like undercurrent of this whole thing is like just constantly seeking validation that and again it pains me to say because I don't want to feel like I need validation I want to say I don't need anyone I'm good but I would be it would be naive for me to

have that cavalier of an attitude and not be honest about the situation I yeah I appreciate you being so open and honest about that and to the extent that the book like closes that chapter

for you it's also ushering in this experiment where you know basically like this is a you know

it like an external validation meter you know it's gonna go out in the world and every day the meter's gonna go like this and and it's gonna and and the job for you is to not like as it as it flickers back and forth to like use that as how you're making a judgment about your self worth and based upon how it's received you know what I mean yeah it's been an interesting journey and the advent of social media and having people like kind of know who I am and like

be invested in my story is like a really awkward feeling at times but it's an act of service yes you're like this is in service of the person who needs to read it and it's not gonna be for everybody but to the extent that it's going to reach certain people and it's gonna impact them in a positive way I think the more that you can be in that you know inhabit like that mindset it that it like alleviates the anxiety of like you know the the the perception aspect of the whole thing

yeah I agree knowing what I know about you and your relationship with shall be your wife my sense or what I'm gathering from this experience that the two of you and your family have had

changed your relationship with spirituality on some level can you talk a little bit about that

yeah no that's a great great topic to discuss because she'll be always took has always taken

the kids to church on a fairly regular basis at least two or three Sundays a month and I would use it as an excuse to do a long run and I just I grew up Catholic but never really embraced religion I would say I wouldn't say I'm an atheist but I would say that I've been like flirting with the

“idea of leaning more into religion and I think when she was diagnosed she definitely leaned”

into her faith heavily and and a lot of people from her like she goes to a Bible study I think once once or twice a month and seeing all the people rally around her was refreshing for me to see how tight the community is so like at and then at Christmas we go to we go to church together and I'm trying to think of the name of the place we go in Nashville they go all the time but it was funny when we walked into the service it's outside it's festive you know there's people

everyone it's because it's like the star pastor was there any standing outside saying hello to everyone and it's a little bit like those southern churches where the church it's a big church in the pastor is like a celebrity and he's standing outside saying hi and my daughter is into it she loves going to church and she'd be like oh dad pastor Mike is here it's like he's

never comes he's always on zoom and as we come do it was like they were hyper focused on me every

person was like hey welcome it's like it was almost like God was like we gotta get him get get the dad quick and even my daughter because my daughter's there she's like they're like celebrity star and they go right pastor don't even look at her and they hone in on me and I'm like oh hey what's on my go go to see nice to me and they're like hey keep coming back and um that's bizarre like an AA meeting exactly I was like man they like they they identify me it's like they

knew and it's funny I just um I didn't interview with Nick bear who's really like leaned into his faith recently and I've have a lot of questions about it and I was saying to him like I don't I don't even know where to start like how do you start reading the Bible I open it and I'm like it's it's overwhelming the letters are so small there's so many words there's so much in there I'm like where do you start and uh he connected me with a guy in um in Nashville pastor

Lyle um uh Lyle Phillips maybe anyway and I connect with this guy I'm gonna meet him next week for coffee and start to like explore this journey but seeing Shelby go through this in the strength

“that she got from her own faith was um motivational to me and it gave me I think that as we've”

been discussing today like this clearly some thing this something missing in my life on the spiritual side like I'm doing all these over compensating type challenges to avoid dealing with the real work that I have to do which is like finding this like inner peace that we've been talking about and um seeing Shelby deal with her own mortality and the challenge that she's faced is incredibly scary it's like I said earlier when she was diagnosed it's almost like I would

rather have terminal cancer because watching her feel scared and unsure for the first certainly

for the first week or two and then eventually like I was saying the science is so advanced and medicine is so advanced they outline for us exactly what would happen and it almost seemed to happen in hyperspeed it was all a blur in hindsight and I remember telling her like this is all going to be a distant memory because I didn't know what else to say to her and I was trying to keep it positive but there were definitely some like really low moments going through this before she had the

“surgery and uh that was one of the most difficult periods of my life is just seeing her be scared”

and not just seeing her be scared but seeing the kids scared and they all reacted wildly different differently because for the first day or two we're like a little bit not tell the kids yet and of course the kids would see me talking to her and then just not crying and like really crying and then I'd walk out of the room and my kids would just like what is going on here and then eventually we just had to tell them because it was so obvious and um the two older ones were like

pretty matter of fact but my middle son is very emotional and he was like man he had a hard time

at some point we just had to like suck it up and like try to find some strength and um I think that

“the silver lining to this whole thing is that they saw her really like be strong and especially”

like once we had the plan and she went through with the surgery seeing her kind of like walking around and having like post surgery with the drains in and I mean it was it was a big surgery so

seeing them seeing her recover and you know women in general are so much more tough if I had a cold

I would be like oh bring me this bring me that like you know she they told her don't get up and

“she's up walking around and I'm like they told you to lay down she's a gommel cam gonna be fine”

whereas I would be like have the bell she have I'm like a big baby when I'm sick she brings a

bell and it puts an exit about she's like just bring this bell if you need anything I mean usually

the kids use it but of course I abuse it when I have it myself but um she was an excellent example of the kids of how to be tough in the face of adversity and how to deal with fear because there were definitely a lot of fear and um they also got an example of like how to lean into your faith we say grace every night before we dinner when we eat as a family if the kids don't have sports and um they talk a lot about being thankful for that she's okay and it's just my wife is like the

leader you know and she's like the silent leader that does all the hard work like a like a female lion she's the one that's like out there hunting and doing all the hard work and I'm like thinking I'm the like king of the jungle but really she's leading from the front yeah king baby exactly um I love you buddy I love this journey that you're on like I have seen so much uh so much growth in you and in the past couple of years you know it's it's it's a remarkable

thing and you're just you're a real one dude really are I'm proud of you for this book and I think it's gonna help a lot of people and it's gonna it's it's gonna it's gonna move people too because

“you're telling the truth you know and that's what these books should be well I appreciate”

love you man and thank you for having me like I said without you I genuinely don't think that this book happens and um I'm incredibly grateful that you allow me to come on and talk about the book as it comes out as you know right and a book is tremendous pressure to like do all the things and um it's not easy to ask for help so thank you for making difficult situations a lot easier and um for being such a good friend so honor me for your brother back at you man thank you

thanks can peace