Russillo Summer Book Club Part 2: “The Gunfighters: How Texas Made the West Wild” w/ Bryan Burrough. Plus Life Advice!

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and you get free shipping. That's nutrafol.com promo code pmt. The Ryder Silla show is presented by Drifting Sports. Today on the Silla book club, The Gunfighters. Brian Burrell. This is a classic get it for your dad or anyone who enjoys the legend of all the great gunfighters. We got Billy the Kid. We got Jesse James. But why at her end, the biggest badass that you may not know his name. This summer, whatever you're watching,

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I don't know, Texas cattle thing and settling the West. And if I don't, there's not a specific list other than I'm just going to share with you right now. It's the gunfighters from Brian Burrow.

“And I think this book is probably one of the best gift ideas because we're just going to run”

through a bunch of the Texas legends and areas outside of Texas, where maybe Texas is the origin of all this stuff. So Brian, it's good to see you. Thank you so much for everything you did on this book. I really enjoyed it. Ryan, it's a real pleasure to be with you. All right, so let's start with Texas as the main character like you do in your book because, you know, I've read about the Southern philosophy, the Southern rules, you know, but it was like, hey, the people from the South that sort

of went to Texas, like it started in the South, but then Texas was so unruly that it was a combination of all these different beliefs and how society should run. So how does Texas become the origin of all of these gunfighting legends? Well, you're right. The first thing you may have to think realize and remember is that Texas is first and foremost, especially then a Southern state. So it inherited a lot of the Southern behaviors around male honor, principally for our purposes, the idea

firmly held in the 19th century that if you were insulted, if somebody disses you, you are not only have the the right, you have the obligation to push back with violence, even deadly violence. Then what happened in Texas, Texas was a Marshall society, one very comfortable with guns because it had to be, not only because of snakes and critters and such, but because they had, you know, they were the only Southern state with two violent frontiers throughout much of the 19th

century. The Mexican frontier, the Native American, the community frontier that cut the state and have it well into the 1870s. So it was an extraordinary violent place and then came the decade after the Civil War in which Texas pretty much revolted against federal occupation. It was a very nasty, often racist type of violence that permeated kind of the male, you know, the male genes in Texas, if you will. And then the final ingredient in what some people call the code to the west

that came out of Texas was the rise of the Texas cattle business, which was an extraordinarily off-the-charts violent business. For the simple reason, we're talking open-range cattle business.

No bark, no bark, wire, no fencing. So their primary concern was always theft from cattle

a bullet or a nips, not a lot of rustlers ever found their way to a Texas courtroom. All of which

“would be kind of interesting local history for Texans, except that Texas violence did not stay”

in Texas with the rise of the cattle drives and the cattle trails. There was this huge type of Texas diaspora, 90% of the cattle that came to populate the ranches of the great plains, the Rocky Mountains, New Mexico, Arizona. There were Texas lawboards because that's the only cattle that were out there. And with those long horns came an awful load of young violent Texans. If what I argue in the book gently is that they were responsible,

certainly not for all the gunfighter style violence in the West, but a disproportionate amount of it. Yeah, that's a pretty staggering number when you lay it out. It's like if you were to look at all of the gunfighting legends and I know that you even admit like whatever's on record versus maybe what had happened, but what is it a third of the people involved historically over this time

“frame like the originated in Texas is that? I put the number 60%. If you look at the 60%”

with you look at what we call the Marquis gunfights because look, there's no way to really adequately measure all the gunfights in the West. So I'm really riding and addressing those that are remembered, those that made the newspapers, those that I'm able to ride out. When you look at those, it's close to 60% of those involved in Texans, a Texan, at least one side. Let's stay on the Texas thing before we get into the individuals though, because

you had to have wanted to maybe be one of these guys to go there in the first place.

Now I understand that there is always man's quest for land and if you feel like, hey,

there's no room for me here in the south, certainly the Northeast, which feels like it's 150 years ahead, even if the calendar says the same time period just based on the way society conducts itself,

“but there's a romantic part of this, but there's also clearly the guys that go out there to bring”

their families, then the furthest edges of the frontier seem to be accepting the danger that comes along with this. You had to. People went out west for a multitude of reasons. By and large, these were not people who were hugely successful back east or wherever they were coming from. They were looking for a new start. There was money to be made in land and livestock in the west. It seemed easy, it seemed up for grabs and risk and danger. This is in a society where

the average male lifespan might be 50 and anything, you know, a snake could kill you, a million

different things could kill you. There was a awful septemic farland movie from years ago, a million ways to die in the west, which is almost true. So yeah, but in the pantheon of things that could kill you in the old west, other white people probably did not rank in the top things, top 10 things that people were scared of going out there. There's also a post civil war crisis where you have all of these former soldiers that are a little unhinged coming out of battle.

And as you clearly mentioned, which makes sense, not like people were diagnosing PTSD back then, but it was so bad that there had actually been a law that was passed that you weren't supposed to serve veterans of the Civil War alcohol. There were municipal audiences in various parts of the north where that type of thing happened. Look, at any talk that you and I gaze with or anybody

does about PTSD after the civil war, there's never gonna be any data to back it up, but it just

makes sense that it was a major problem, especially because this was an era in which mental health challenges were just not addressed. So you had a lot of a crime wave that really swept much of the east in the late 1860s, much of it was blamed on veterans. And it's during those years where we see the rise of this new American archetype out west, the gunfire, many of them were in fact mentioned. Let's start with Wild Bill Hedcock. Was he a fraud? He started as a fraud,

that is what I argue. When you Wild Bill Hedcock is the first gunfire. It's not the first time Americans ever had a gunfire, but the gunfire that he engaged with in killing a man, it's Springfield, Missouri, and July 1665 was the first time that the phenomena was written about in a major Eastern magazine, and suddenly everybody was fascinated. And it wasn't just that Hedcock killed a man. He was at a writer discovered in this was a guy from Harper's Weekly, much like the

New Yorker. And he writes straight-faced that he has no doubt that this Wild Bill Hedcock person

confirmed why. I mean, what's he just the actual number was closer to two. Wild Bill, was a human who didn't mind becoming a somebody, and so he continued this charade, if you will, for several years. And the odd thing Ryan is that after a few years, the various communities led by Evelyn Kansas, Texas, Caltown, a set up for Texans. Saw that reputation in hiding, and he was not a great martial. He killed people who didn't

need killing a number of times, most famously including his own deputy. But he did get a reputation

“for being a talented gunman. So when I think of Hedcock, I think of a guy who started out as a fraud,”

but kind of grew into the image. Yeah, I think it's a really fascinating part of telling the story,

because you go through a lot of these legends. And it's like, here's what's real, and here's what

is, and it's tremendous amount of research. But you do make the point, like it's not an attack on Wild Bill necessarily. It's that he's the rarest of cases where he was absolutely a fraud, but then it was almost like because he was a fraud, he felt like he had a, I mean, I'm not trying to be insensitive here. But like it is numbers up so that the legend actually matched up. So it was almost like he was chasing his own publicity by going on the sprees of taking

guys out. That is very much my sense of the man. Of course he never admitted it. But Hedcock is the

“first gun fighter. He is very human in some ways heroic in some way sad. But that's the fun of all this.”

I mean, if you like the old West, trying to figure out what was real to, of all this, because so much of it will, I mean, the standard thing of any academic who's going to get up here and talk about old West gun fighters for years. They would just say this was all Hollywood stuff. It's all made up. It wasn't. There's a large part of reality that underpins these gun fighter legends. And so for those of us that watched Deadwood, the scene with Wild Bill being shot of a card game,

that's 100% what happened, correct? Yes. I'm not remembering the Deadwood episode, but Deadwood

got everything right. We'll never understand why that guy came around and shot Wild Bill in the

back of the head. But yeah, all all research suggests that Hedcock can actually be nice to it. It slid him some money when he was losing and said, "Hey, go take a break, get a meal." And I guess the man's manhood was somehow challenged because he did away with Hedcock pretty easily. But the sad part of Hedcock by then, as he was already on the decline, he had lost, I mean, ironically, what he had lost physically was a much of his eyesight. He used more

blue tinted glasses for those last years, because bright light tended to bother. And so he, of course, the gunfices for him had ended in 1871 in Abelene, the last major one being the one in which

“he killed his deputy Papas take. How does Abelene Kansas enter the timeline?”

If you look at kind of the pantheon of great theaters of gunfighter violence, tombstone with Wilder, New Mexico with Billy the Kid, it starts in Abelene, Kansas 1871,

which is really the first moment when a crowd of Texas cowboys led by the most notorious

Texas gunfighter of all John Wesley Harden arrive in town and start shooting things up. And the reason it became so well known, the reason that it is kind of the genesis of so much of these legends is the Marshall and Abelene, was the best known gunfighter in America, really the only gunfighter in America that most people have ever heard of while Bill Hickock. So the shootings and there were a series of them, like six or seven involving Harden and

several involving Hickock. It kind of begins the gunfighter narrative. I referred to this period overall from 1865 to 1901 as the gunfighter era, because that's when every gunfighter you've ever heard of rose and fell. And Abelene is the first theater of note. The first one where Marquee gunfights really kind of made the eastern papers and sank into the history books. That also had a really funny anecdote like Ben Thompson enters the scene and everybody,

it feels like all of our main characters in Abelene at this point and they decided it was that they wanted to mess with while Bill when they decided to paint a bull with an erect penis

Like you've got all these gunfighters are like, hey, we can't have it. A wreck penis bull

“on the side of a building on Main Street. Can we? Well, Bill go handle this.”

Well, you're right to observe that what made Abelene amazing is the amount of star power,

not just John Wesley Harden, not just Wild Bill Hickock, but the Texas gambler and gunfighter. Ben Thompson and much of the narrative of that summer does begin when Thompson opens a bar for Texas Cowboys who, of course, bringing in their cattle to put on trains to go to Chicago. And it's called the bull's hand in the and he puts a wreck bull's penis on his on his sign-out side and will the Wild Bill comes in and puts and paints it open. And Thompson is

beside himself. So when John Wesley Harden, an 18-year-old young man who is by my count already killed about 24 people, 24 people comes in. Thompson knows it from Texas that says, "This hit caught just hates the sun the nurse." He hates us. Now, you should go kill him. And as Harden related, he's our sole source for this many years later, and then auto biophysic.

“Ben, if you want to, if you want to shout, why don't you do it yourself?”

But Harden got his dander up, and when Hickock went to see his pistols, when Harden was in a bowling alley, who knew they had bowling alleys in the old West, but they did. Harden had grown to a bunch of cowboys who were making a little too much noise. Hickock went in and confronted him, and this was one of the most famous gunfighter front confrontations of the old West. And he called Harden by a nickname that he had acquired

little Arkansas for a shootout that had happened by the little Arkansas River. And he said, "Little Arkansas, I need to weapons." And Harden was wearing two pistols, and he handed him but forward as you do. And then he famously spun them in his hand, a very difficult niche maneuver known as the road agents span or the border roll, so that suddenly his guns were trained on Harden. And Harden, excuse me, his guns were trained on Hickock. And that's when you,

I mean, Harden had killed so many people so easily. You really expect this to be an historic confrontation. And Hickock bless his heart, basically, says, "Little Arkansas, you're mistaken. I don't wish you will will. I'm not trying to hurry. I don't know what been Thompson's told you. Could we just have a sass burilla?" And they did, they just sat down, they talked to that. It was kind of the most famous non-gunfight of the Old West. Why it herbs

background, which it has been lost to Hollywood? There's so much to say, there's been a lot of good news scholarship. I'm gunfighters over the last 50 years. In fact, that's one reason I wanted to write this book, the gunfighters is to bring it to a general audience. And the most single most

amazing fact to win of all this is that for the length of his time, on the Old West Front here,

from which it taught where he began to dodge city to tombstone as a lament. Wider was also escaped federal prisoner. In 1872, I want to say 1871, he was arrested in Oklahoma for stealing the horse. And he may really have done it. Don't really know, put in a jail in Van Buren, Arkansas, facing a lengthy jail time. He went a bunch of guys broke through a hole in the roof and ran out into the night. He ran out too. Two years later, he shows up as a deputy in a witch-a-taw

five years later, he begins entering legend in Dodd City. And even though I offer that, I will tell you that, you know, Wider is kind of the shining moral symbol of this whole era. You know, in an era where so many of the lawmen, the sheriffs, the marshals are corrupt, drunk, or both. Erp and his brothers, Erp and those who worked with the Dodd City, we're really, we're really pretty darn good. They were hardworking, they're moral. And while

they, you know, Erp obviously did go off, you know, did go off the range a little bit,

as a vigilante in tombstone. He really had an incredible career of marked by

“unusual professionalism for that day in time. His kill total, though, is what?”

Looks like, too. Looks like, too, that he killed curly-bill brosius in a confrontation in the so-called Vendetta ride at the height of the violence in tombstone. And then he probably killed another guy, uh, one of brosius's partners, uh, that oath of which, um, Wider believed had killed his brother Morgan and wounded his brother, Virgil. Uh, there was one other guy in Dodd City. There was, uh, an 1879 version of a drive by in Dodd City in which a bunch of Texas Cowboys shot up a bar

and when they rode off, Erp and a number of guys stepped into the street and shot down, shot at the

flame guys in one one cowboy fell and ultimately died and that might have been the first person

Wider, uh, kill. When I saw Tombstone the first time as much as I enjoyed the movie, I was like, man, this has, I thought it was over 30 minutes ago because the movie just keeps going and it's over

“and then it's, and then once I read all the tombstone stuff, like, to be fair, I think the movie”

kind of nails it because it just goes on forever between all of these characters and the Cowboys. If you haven't seen the Tombstone movie from 1993, it's not only to my money, the best Wider movie, it's, it's got to be one of the three best gunfighter based movie. It is largely accurate. I could certainly say point to the initial massacre of Mexican villagers as fancival and standing in for all sorts of real-life violence. And then the, at the end, where Johnny Ringo is killed,

and I believe that's by the, yeah, that's by Valkylmers, Doc holiday and he's the greatest Doc holiday ever. That didn't happen. We're pretty sure Johnny Ringo killed himself. Wider often claimed to have killed Johnny Ringo, but you're right. You know, you think that the climax of this is when Wider's two brothers are one of his killed one is wounded, but that only begins the narrative of this righteous, highly moral lawman, who goes vigilante to avenge his brothers.

And that's exactly what happened. It was a big deal in Western newspapers. It made some of the

“Eastern newspapers, and that movie, you know, you have to give a lot of credit for because it is”

largely accurate. Yeah, especially when it's the, what you think is like the historic shootout at the OK Carl and you're, you're, you're, you know, OK, well, this, this must be this incredible thing. And I'd say it is, it's kind of like you can't believe people keep missing, but I think the movie does a good job of, of keeping it to your point like accurate because when you start reading about that shootout, and you're like, OK, this isn't, and the legend of it is

so much bigger than the actual. It's not like, you know, 100 guys or 100 guys here. It's kind of the way you think about it the whole time, but here's another thing I thought like you

have Masterson who honestly is like, always kind of one of my favorites because he pivots over to

boxing, he becomes friends with Teddy Roosevelt. He becomes a writer. He's living in New York City. And that person going into like New York City, New York City like gilded age, high society, he must have been like, we have a real like badass that was with why it hurt. As the Northeast,

“I think is incredibly enamored with this vigilante lifestyle and all these stories that”

reading about. But was it that Doc and Masterson and the Cowboys and the EURPS? Is it that the truly are like the legends of their time? And they all decide to kind of like link up or does that setting with all of these characters there turned them into these legends? Because it feels like we've got a super team of gunfighters. And I couldn't figure out like, would it be, would everybody just say, hey, everybody's going to Dodge City this year? Let's go or

or was the city itself building them up? I think that the source of the fame is the fact that both wider and his great friend from Dodge City, Bat Masterson grew to old age. They lived into the 1920s at a time where I have to say, all of this gunfighter legend was pretty much for God.

It always reintroduced by a famous magazine article when someone who's first words were

who remembers Billy the Kid, which is hard to imagine now. But that led in the mid 1920s to the rediscovery of her who was still alive. Masterson had been writing and heralding, not just her, but Doc Holliday. But the others around him. So that narrative of wider from Kansas to Arizona, climaxing and tombstone kind of became the spine of the whole gunfighter era, the whole gunfighter legend. And I think it deserves to be. It's that great of story. But it's also largely a fluke

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What was your favorite doc holiday story? Well, I mean, the first one where he will never know

exactly what happened. But why told the story? This was in Dodge City. They had met before and up down in Fort Griffin, Texas. And Urban kind of made an impression on him. And so holiday, who was a wandering gambler, wandered up to Dodd City. And he clearly admired White or if he saw something that he was not. Or did have this kind of moral core that the holiday largely did not have. And that night that a bunch of Texas cowboys and Dodd City were shooting up a bar.

Urban is deputies responded. And by and large, they did not engage cowboys and drunk with gunfire, but with gun butts. And so they start going in and swinging these big heavy revolvers, braining these guys. And you know, there's an understanding that nobody's going to pull a gun. We're just going to, you know, we're just going to do this with our fist. One of the Texas Cowboys broke the rules and pulled a gun. And as as are described, and I'm doing this by memory,

holiday, you know, basically, yeah, why it looked out and pulled the gun on the cowboy. Nobody

fired, but the cowboy then did not shoot White Urban and he was in the back. And it, you know, there is a bond that you see between those men that you see in the good and the bad White.

“Murray, in the good and the bad White. Murphy's that I think is was real and was justified.”

And here's how you know, because that the climactic moment when White Urban is brothers or about to walk down to the okay crowd and try to arrest or fight with this group of cowboys, holiday walks up just as they're about to leave. And he says, what are you doing? They explain. And he says, well, you're not asking me. He and White Urban says, this is likely to be a tough one, talk. And Doc, the multiple sources says, the tough ones are the one I like. And he just walked

down there and engaged in this gun fight with no skin on the game except his loyalty to their brothers. I think that means a lot of men. He comes off as incredibly like, well, because like your sort of is you're reading these different stories in your trying to get through fact or fiction. There's definitely some ones where you go. Oh, this sucks. Like, this guy's awful. Not to say, like, I need to be convinced that guys that were murdering people were bad people because of further

research. But I think Doc holds up really well historically based on the way you present him and backing up a lot of the other stuff, which I think is a perfect pivot in his Jesse James, because he is entirely different based on origin. And you even suggest that you didn't even want to put him in the book. No, he, he, if Ryan Burroughs running a book on old West Gunfighters, Jesse James is not an old West Gunfighter. Two problems. He's not from the old West and he's not a

“gunfighter. That's what I thought. But I put him in there, because look, anybody, because you're out of their”

statue, people, people expect Jesse James in this book. And I figured that there was utility, there was use in telling his story in a single chapter to show what he was and what he wasn't. What he was was, you know, the last rebel of the Civil War and the way that he rebelled was through crime. He was not only the first American bankrupt, he was the first American train room. His level of criminality from 1869 until 1881 is unmatched in American history.

There had never been anything, anything like Jesse James before and there hasn't been sense.

He was the first household name criminal, Billy the Kid would probably be the second. And he was, you know, a guy of incredible talent at being a bad guy. He's not a gunfighter, because I think of a gunfighter as a civilian who kind of gets in equal fights from time to time. Jesse James just killed people. Typically bank officers, bank tellers, who wouldn't do what he said. He wouldn't open the safe. Jesse James puts a gun to his head and kills him. He killed like five

people that way. So I don't consider that a gunfighter. Yes, I realize there's no strict rules on this. But it's my book. I can soon want to me. That's just a murder. I was convinced after the Jesse James chapter and it is interesting how he's held up historically because once you read your chapter, you're like, okay, but he's just shooting people and he's shooting people who doesn't even need to shoot. And at that time, despite what we would grow up

call it a traditional old West. People weren't really robbing banks, right? Like this was kind of

“a new thing where his numbers were like his, his usage rate, I would say, was a lot higher than”

anybody else that was was doing this, which is not the way it's remembered. It's kind of felt like everybody was doing this. Now, he, Jesse James and his brother Frank really blazed this trail. They may have been the first, we don't know, the first bank robbed in America in a peacetime was, I will say, 1866 in Missouri. He may have been there. We can't be sure. We can't really start handing him to things until 1869. But the odd ball thing about Jesse James and you put your

finger on it, Ryan, is that he was a cold blooded murderer. But Americans never viewed him that way.

We've always had a tendency to when we see criminals involved with acts of daring do. Typically, any type of escape, any type of thing where they're fighting against the odds where every bank rubber constantly was, we tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. We tend to, let slide the fact that, yes, Jesse James had some incredible escapes. Yes, he ran away from all sorts of gunmen and marshals. But just because he was brave and had, you know, daring exploits,

doesn't mean he wasn't a cold blooded murderer, too. And given that set of facts, with any number of people in this book and others, you know, a different civilization in the NARS, my painting,

with a, you know, a black brush. And we never had. Another thing that's easy to kind of forget here,

too, is we're not that far removed from the end of the Civil War. And so if James is fighting for the Confederacy, it would, you know, it's partly his legend is like, well, you know, this is just a southern boy that was still upset of how come with the war. And you're like, well, that's excusing a ton of shit. But it certainly was part of his, his motivation, even if he was pretty like loose with the idea that this was some vengeance against the North because it wasn't like

he was just going after banks in Pennsylvania here. This is, this is a common theme, though, is that you, you have a lot of lost soldiers that may think people owe them for their service beyond whatever it is that they gain during wartime. Yeah, you see that a lot. You see a lot of angry southerners out on the front here, Dr. Holiday would be one certainly. If you look at the vast number of the vast outlaw gang, it wider falling tombstone over a hundred guys, they were predominantly

Texans. And there were, and certainly in the Kansas Cal Towns, where a lot of the violence was, Texas Cal Boys, you know, often drunk, fighting it out with wider or per bat master, so no while Bill Hickock, all of them had a sense of, well, I'm not going to let some Yankee share of take me in. So the civil war certainly fed a lot of this, especially I think in the early years, the late 1860s and early 1870s, if you track the trajectory of Jesse James's career, he got very

much, he loved when a newspaper editor or three called in the last of the engine rebel. He ate this stuff up. He sent out, you know, notes, installing that he was fighting for the self, yada yada, when he'd fact, as you say, this is just an extensive rationalization for the man

“to keep doing the only thing he knew how to do, which was being extraordinary criminal,”

but he very much liked wearing the clothes of self-registness. But over the, you know, the course of, of his career into the late 1870s, that acts increasingly began to wear thin. America, Missouri, it was, was there was all moving on? Yeah, and there's a fascinating entry where he, like, tells the press like, yeah, the James Gangs back and like, nobody even cares. I mean, it feels like an athlete that had retired three

years ago and then says I'm, I'm making a comeback and it's like, well, no one, no one actually cares. And it just feels like even then society moved on, like, we're kind of sick of the stuff, which I do want to get to kind of the end of this era, but there's still a couple of names. Sam Bass was not somebody that I was familiar with. Sam Bass has kind of this legend status

“in Texas, who was Sam and, and why is he not considered the same way some of these other names are?”

Oh, Sam Bass. Sam Bass pulled off. Sam Bass was a Texas cowboy, young guy, illiterate,

not the sharpest pencil in the pack once suspects. He, uh, he first wrote to something,

some degree of fame in Texas as a jockey and he took some of his winnings with a crooked cattleman, uh, and they bought some cattle, took him up and, and, and, and, uh,

winnings into, they lost their winnings, either in a mining claim or, or gambling, we don't know.

They turned a pity any crime robbing stage coaches in the Deadwood area. They were awful at it. Like one guy gave them one one driver gave them peaches and said, that's sorry, that's all I got. These were not this kind of game for the shoots break. And so you can imagine the jaws that drop across the right planes when Sam Bass and his knucklehead buddies, um, rob a train, uh, in remote western Nebraska and they find a shipment from the US men in San Francisco. And it is

the largest train robbery in American history larger than anything the James game had ever did. And of course, they're like, oh crap. So anyway, long story shorts, uh, almost all, almost all as partners are running down and and and killer captured. Sam Bass, Sam Bass makes it back to Texas. Where, um, you know, we put a number on like financially, what it, what it met, what, what this,

what was it like the modern day? It would have been like almost two million.

“I think all three of them. It's like three million. It was one of three million dollars.”

And by the time, Sam, and people are still looking for, Sam Bass is fortunate. There's nobody's ever been to a find out how that happened. I mean, there are old Texas guys, you know, on walkers and oxygen machines with, you know, you know, metal detector, still trying to find Sam Bass's fortunate. So everybody in Texas, when Sam Bass comes back, is on the lookout for him. And that the rangers and everybody, the, the sands on his head, home town of Denton,

which is north of Dallas. There's all sorts of chases and escapes and daring do and eventually the area gets too hot for Sam Bass. So he embarks on a second crime wife robbing trains in Texas and then moving south to rob banks. And a funny thing happened along the way and maybe was just the tenor of the times in Texas. But there's a such a thing in America, an academic sort of circles called the social outlaw, like Robin Hood, an outlaw that the public

lionizes, that the public falls in love in Sam Bass's case. There were a lot of editorial us in Texas and say, okay, he's robbing these things. He's not hurt, not one of these bank presidents and railroad presidents and everything. Going after this poor jocky and didn't, and he got enormous amounts of public support. This did not stop him from getting shot to pieces

“in round rock Texas. And I believe it was 1878. This is the town 30 miles up the road from”

where I live. But afterwards, he became a real Texas folklore. There were songs about it that I think you can even win to certain nursing homes around Texas. You could probably find people seeing your sand bass on it. And I will tell you without going into it into a hotel. You know, how we know sand bass is a great story because someone Netflix is bought the right to my book. And that's the movie they're going to make out of it. It's the sand bass on it.

That's incredible. I thought the book would be like, many series are limited series. They're

almost impossible to get anybody unless, like, if a star somebody signs off on it. But I was like, this would be an awesome TV show to just go, hey, here's the series. But every two episodes you're visiting and learning about a new character and like that. We're going to do that in a podcast that we're recording now as you would expect. Okay. All right. I can't wait to listen to it. Before I have some rapid fire stuff, we have to end with Billy the Kid. Because

it just feels different. I don't know why it feels different. I don't know that I'm like re-engineering him being like the first guy I'd ever think of as a little kid. You mentioned at one point I think there's 50 movies made with his character in the 1940s. And yes. Yeah. But in the beginning, I mean, is it really the Lincoln jail escape that starts his legend? Because he's, he's story just felt a little different. And I don't know. I, it just, again, it just felt like a completely

“different character than some of the other guys. And maybe that's why I held up.”

Billy the Kid is fascinating because there I could write 50 books on Billy the Kid. I can give you 50 different Billy the Kid. You can paint him as a hero. You can paint him as a loyal friend. A hero to the Latinos in New Mexico, many of whom he befriended in who hid him. I love the story because of the moral ambivalence. You know, he was an orphan. He gravitated into an armed conflict, the Lincoln County War. When he was a teenager, clearly he was seeking

meaning and guidance. And he got it there. And, you know, somewhat like Jesse James, he continued doing what he was good at. After the Lincoln County War, you know, he becomes a cattle wrestler in essence. He gets into a few gun fights. Not a lot, I believe, the number, the precise number man that we can prove he killed is something like three. But there's just so many ways to see

The most incredible thing is you can still go to that side in Lincoln, in Mexico. It's incredible.

You can stand where he shot the, you know, the deputy below. You can see it all. There's markers. It's wonderful. It's as good a Western history as you find. And then ultimately to be tracked down and killed by a man, he knew who probably, despite young guns, too, was probably not his best friend, Pat Garrett. They clearly knew each other. And the circumstances of that night when Billy the kid walked into a dark and bedroom. And Pat Garrett was sitting on the bed.

And the man, the elderly Mexican in the bed said to whisper to Pat L. S. It's him.

“And Pat Garrett just shot the dark. Bang, bang. The only thing you hear is the fall of a body.”

Billy the kid. I read all the books. And you can't have too many books about it. Billy the kid. He's fascinating. Why did this era end?

These, the answer is because the Western Frontier closed. Most people put the closing

the Frontier in the 1890s, the period in which railroads and civilization and civilizing ideas kind of closed off some of the wildness of the West. I think it's best symbolized by the two guys that I end the book with the last gunfighters really. Which cast in the Sunday, it's kid, aka Harry Longabot. You know, they ultimately I end the book with their decision pursued by the Pinkerton's and every lawman in the West it's seen. They actually did go to New York.

They boarded a freighter and in hopes that they could raise cattle in South America, they went to Argentina. And that seems to be the, you know, the place to end the era. I love that movie, which casting the son can't dance kid from 1969. If you haven't seen it, it's still good, it holds up well, it's read for it is best. And that was strangely

“the movie they got me all started when I saw that when I was like 11. So I think that's those”

of the factors that led to the end of the story. Certainly gunfighting and gunfights continued in parts of the West into the 20th century, but they were no longer really part of the zeitge, the zeitgeist. They were, you know, not no longer celebrated. They were frowned upon. And so I felt that was a fair place to end the story. Rapid fire. I don't know if deadliest is the same as toughest, the most brutal, scariest, but if you had to pick one,

who is it? John Wesley Hardner of Texas. Who would be the most likable? Fighter. Who's the biggest fraud? It's a toss-up between three, while Bill Hicac, who we've discussed, a guy in Texas named Wild Bill Longley, who claimed something like 38 killings. The exact number would appear to be four. Or the other guy that we mentioned from Tombstone, a Texas gunslinger named Johnny Ringo,

“who got terribly famous in the 20th century. I think mostly because he had a cool last name.”

And there's no sense that the only time we ever know that he drew a gun for sure was twice. He shot a minor in some type of drunken brawl like winged him. And the other time, he shot himself as he committed suicide. Who designed these prisons? Prisons, kind of we're lagging indicator of technological expertise in the old West.

By favorite ones were the first jailed in Texas, which were essentially holes dug into the ground.

And the jailer would sit on a chair, a top, you know, beside it and look down that that was the jail. Look, it's just of all the things that needed to be built in all of these new towns that were built. You know, the first thing you're going to do is have, you know, some housing, a hotel, maybe a a saloon, jails, you know, especially in small places. And even prisons, they're just they're worth the legal system. Was it robust enough that it was a huge demand for putting people

up behind bars? The gap between how we romanticize this era versus the reality, I try to think of like other time periods because they most of us realize like, hey, if you were walking around medieval times, it probably wasn't that great. So I guess I'll end here. Was it actually an awful time in an awful place to live? I don't think you can say that it was either at a one or a ten. You know, it was, it was what it was, meaning this violence was not in your face.

You didn't live with gun violence every day. That's an overstatement. On the other hand,

as we always thought it was. But Ryan, where I come down to end on that is just, you know why it was

“awful? No electricity. No toilet paper. No deodorant. No feminine products. It was a different”

level of hygiene than we accept. And the idea that this was barely 150 years ago is still jarring for me to grasp. There's so much more in this book. There's so many names that I didn't touch on because I mean, again, we could do it forever. And I'm not surprised that you're going to have a podcast series on all of these different characters. So about as far as the times I've had reading in a long time. So thanks, Brian. I'm honored. And please, thanks, man.

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payments of $30 a month. First charge it purchase. Availability varies. Within NFL Sunday

ticket for out-of-market games in YouTube TV for local and national games, YouTube TV required terms restrictions and embargo supply. Commercial use excluded. No refunds. You want details? 5. I drive a Ferrari. 355 cabriole. What's up? I have a ridiculous house in the south fork. I have every toy you can possibly imagine. Best of all kids, I am liquid. So now you know what's possible? Let me tell you what's

required. Life advice. Life advice [email protected]. That is the email. Let's get to it. Am I cheating or just maximizing opportunity? Jim stats 510. Okay. So you grow. I'm not cheating. I'm opportunity maxing. All right. 510 no max bench but rep in 225 in the bench for 5 times played lacrosse in college just small D3 school. This guy has finance rate in all over.

I haven't been out for years. What's that? And opportunity maxing. Yeah. I hope you still are out those pennies every month in a while there just to take yourself back. I have one. It doesn't fit. I've wanted to the gym a couple times. I look like an asshole. Yeah. The trainers like you. You made a decision today. Like yep. You're not afraid of anything like it. I see that's better. I'm not going to work out this. No. You don't want to bash it up.

“I think it's a tight. I lost so much weight over like I don't know. There's like a month”

there. So I don't know what's going on. Got real light real light for your boy. Let us virus. No. I did it three days fast. Oh. Damn. I still haven't started that one. I told you I was going to do it one at a time. That was pretty bummed out. So it was easy. I was like you haven't eaten all day. I was like, you know what? Let's do the three days early for tomorrow. He's going. Yeah. Was it all those was it during all those transactions

you hated for the NBA? Oh shit. I have an actually scary friend. Friends contact with John. Like Minnesota thinks this mellow thing's going to be good. Oh, you get it when the bronchi is a team. Text it Tim Conley. I'm not going to eat for three days because of this protest year and it just turns back. Who is this? Oh man. I can't wait to see which week of the season. The mellow stops throwing logs and Rudy go bare up. I'm just trying to figure

that out. Yeah. Three days fast. Your mood will go right up right back up when you see that. So you know what's coming. It's just going to be so funny because like dealing him kept throwing impasses. You can see the other guys were like, yeah, we don't do that here. You know, it's not a thing we do. All right. Speaking of the lettuce virus, by the way, I died. My wife got mad at me yesterday because I didn't wash. I did. I had a salad and washed. I didn't know. I'm

not aware of what's going on. So I was yesterday. I had no idea. People looking like I was buying

Yeah. Why is it here? All right. Take it off the shelf. What do you want me to do? I got to find

I'm like, I've been making like a chop salad where I'll just we got a great store atoms near us. And I'll like sit up buying like the bags of lettuce, the triple wash or whatever. I'll just get like looks like it just came out of the came out of the back of the truck. And I find that hard to wash. I really do. So I've been I've been taking chances. Yeah. I had a iceberg in there and it chopped. Yeah, a lot or yeah, Roman some just like the and it's like way bigger than you think. The

ones you see in the store are like, you know, skinny and this is some healthy lettuce. But I just find hard to get in there and watch. I've ate my way through decades of lettuce prices. So I at this

point, just you know, from like G. U. M. I've swallowed from like the ages eight to 12 and so much so much.

Dude, what we didn't need that I guess. All right. We knew what you meant. What the hell broke. Whatever. Not all of it, but yeah, you're good. Do you win gum just the one last time? One last time. Oh, man. Good washing lettuce. It's like a subtle whatever was going on in your brain when you did that.

“He'd like I did swallowing gum. Dude. Yeah. Why do they know it's gone? What is he doing?”

Whatever. What did he say? I'm like sweating over here now. I didn't even think I didn't even stand anything crazy about it. I don't even know what to do. I don't even know what to do. What was this guy who was thinking about studying the brain and now we're yeah, maxing something. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, well, here we go. I haven't been in a relationship for about two years. My ex broke up with me, which is relevant because I initially broke up with her

and she did everything besides cheating me as far as I know and then she broke up with my ass. Okay. I recently gone on two days with two beautiful women. I've kissed both of them. No big deal. But I'm not sure if I'm scared of another relationship or I'm just bored and walk a companionship. Women number one, let's call her Doja Cat. Okay. She's telling you. Yeah. Yeah. Now we got the giggles. I'm going to be tough. Yeah. This is going to be tough. It's all right.

We need it sometimes. She's tall and I find has a great sense of humor. However, as a lax finance bro, it seems to me she does not have lofty goals in her future. Women number two, let's call her Anne Hathaway. She's also tall and super into being active and lifting which I love. And however she's poor at communicating, no comma. My ex, I can't sometimes you guys. However, she's poor at communicating my ex and I were somewhat long distance.

And I know I have a fear of long distance. Again, not only have I kissed both of these women on back to back days. Yes, dude. But as a finance bro who lives in New England, I eventually want to move to the south and build a family down there. Love that. Love that you've got. You already

got to figure out. First question, am I a whore? You guys want to take that one? No. Sure,

answer no. Yeah, you good. I don't even think you've qualified. I don't think you pay people

“that I maybe you do pay people like his hero, whatever. But I think I don't even think you've”

you've entered that world. It's a little bit more a whore tournament. You wouldn't even have a number next to your name. Yeah, dude. Sorry. Yeah. You don't even need a shower after what you put up to. Yeah. Second, should I continue to play this slow and enjoy the opportunity I created? Lastly, I could be wrong. Feel free to call me a misogynist. But don't women, press generalization. Have an idea of the men they can date as options or at least have a

plethora of men to have to not be lonely. He's attached to picture himself. Having a brusky with the boys. Sounds like he's just dating, right? I mean, with everything I've heard, I don't think there's, I think this back to back kissing is just really just messed with chemistry here. He's unlike a time time release lock. He's like, it's too hard. Yeah. The neutrons are just buzzing around in

“there. Honestly, I think this email kind of means it like if you're, you're not the thing you think”

you could be potentially big, right? It's okay. You're a young guy. You broke up with somebody you kissed Dosha Cat, then Anne Hathaway back to back. Guys are right at book. Things are going to be able to pull that. Yeah. So I don't other than you being caught up a little bit in your momentum

is the thing the opposite of yourself with this. Just be happy. Just be happy that people are interested in you. Be happy that. Be nice to my friend. Yeah. Right. Like, don't get in your head about this shit. I mean, of all the things you can get in your head about wasted some of time with a little voice in there. This is not one of them. You'll look back and laugh at yourself or even sending in the email in two years guaranteed. 100%. I actually have nothing to say about

this other than Anne Hathaway. You guys see in the pictures? I've seen. Well, she's pregnant. The little bronjames of actresses has been thrown around. She's one of one. God damn. I don't know her. Yeah. I mean, I'm not just saying because she's in inception. Her to choose me. Interstellar dollar. Yeah. Well, I can't do it. And the obviously one and two. Yeah.

“And the Odyssey. Yeah. So great. Looks great. Good for her. Yeah. I think this guy's going to do well”

in the south. He's got morals. Clearly. So I think once he finally has down south, he's going to have

you do a family. No, that was coming. Such a great line. Such a great line. And the look he gives him back. Yeah. Yeah. You think he's like, probably you do her well there. I think that's the one. All right, wife wants me to get a second to me. 39, six foot, 185, poor man's catalytic with a jaylon brown, ask one handed handle. No impressive gym stats, but I did complete a tough motor in 2013 and ran the foulmouth road race. Shadow Cape Cod is a road

runner on a women 50 minutes and 2017 the morning after working a restaurant shift. I think this guy's think it's okay to say this guy's quote built different and quote. As the subject line states, my wife wants me to get a vasectomy some background. We've married nearly seven years together for 12. We have a three year old daughter or three month old son and in any 11 year old golden retriever. During the birthday of our son, she had it have an emergency C section because

he had a 95%ile head size and weight potential future NFL left tackle. Every day we do that

“something. Yeah. Wait, you want a regional percentile here? You want a global one?”

No, I think it's Norwegian. I thought so, right? That was in Norwegian. I was stuck on the region thing that I was watching dead would not too long ago and they would call those guys blockheads. I don't know if that was like big square head or maybe that meant something worse, but I just googled contra with the biggest heads. I'm not sure I want to read the answer. So, okay, I'll be that alone. Okay. All right, back on. Everything turned out fine, both

mom and baby are happy and healthy. Okay. Well, that's great to hear. The other night after a few drinks following a family adding to a summer concert series along the Cape God Canal, my wife brought up me getting a vasectomy in a half joking, but also very serious way that women often broach these types of conversations. The topic has been brought up before. I'm just not into it.

“At all, I tell her that we've only ever gotten pregnant. We've planned to and we've never had any”

scares. Her line of reasoning is that she's gone through it all. One traditional birth, a miscarriage last summer followed by the C section birth, the April and everything that comes with it, weight, fluctuation, hormonal imbalance, breastfeeding, pumping, and rebuilding her abdominal wall. You know, man, she's making some pretty good points. And me getting vasectomy would be decided by appreciation for all she's done for our family. I deeply love her and our family

and forever grateful for the amazing mother wife she is. She's the best, but I don't want any type

of elective surgery done in my boys. She's tried shaming me, called me scare, it was. That's probably fun. Again, I'll have joking, but very serious tone and that tactic just makes me double down on my stance. I kind of get a couple of competitors going out here. I avoided a potential slightly buzzed argument by leaving it off with, I'm open to learning more about how it is. I don't want to do it. I don't think it's necessary. I'd like to circle my equivalent city to compare childbirth

and vasectomy as its natural sea section aside, though it's very common and vasectomy is not. It's not about me wanting to have another kid down the road. I don't, okay, I was wondering if that was floating around back there. But what is getting through to me more is the sacrifice that she's made and vasectomy is a son of appreciation slash incine gesture. To my close high school friends, we've had vasectomy and have said it's no big deal and everything works the same.

Oh, he says two of my close friends have. Just no bullets in the gun, so to speak, but I don't, I still won't see it that way. I simply don't want to go through the rest of my life neutered. Am I being an asshole if I continue to hold my ground? Should I appease my wife's wishes to

and if I should change my stance on this big fan of the pod. I mean, I have one. Oh, yeah, I don't think

“I would have gotten it if my wife didn't want it, but I also got it if she's wrong. I think you about”

not getting it or do you think you know, I think I would have dug my heels in. But totally, that's the biggest bummer here. But she was like, hey, I, you know, we had not, you know, some sort of, I don't know how to say this. There were some things about, there were some complications with just the pregnancy in general, nothing like super insane, but something that we had to like be aware of. And it made sense to get a vasectomy afterwards. We only want to two kids.

And I got the rubber band, the second me, too, which is like not the, not the, not the later all time.

Yeah. There's, there's rapid real tight, um, which is like so supposed to be pretty like not a vaset whatever, and it wasn't a big deal. It's also reversible. Right. It's reversible. So like, I, so him saying, like, he's different from the rest of his life. Like they basically make that very clear when you go to the doctor's office. I had, I had a lovely time there. It was a great experience in and out. Um, I feel nothing different at all. Uh, afterwards after like, you know, a weak full

“vice-packs down there. So I, I think you're being a little bit of a deep as what I met you though. Do you know?”

I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Any lower now. But, no, there's like, there's just nothing bit, there's just, there just isn't a, it's just not a big deal at all. Like I didn't, I didn't know what you expect going in. It was super easy. The recovery was nothing and again, they told me a thousand times if you want to reverse as you could reverse this. So I feel like you're right, Kyle, like if she was a dick about it to me,

I'd probably be like a little bit more, you know, defiant, but she wasn't and I got it and I have no regrets. Yeah. It sounds like we skipped over the, the understanding part from her where it's like, yeah, this is kind of a big move growing up. This seems like a thing that you want to protect with

your life. You know what I mean? You survived the part where your friends are always hitting each other

in the balls and now it's like, now we're going to like change them fundamentally. I think like telling a, do a youngest do that is like, yeah, there might be something he's got to get over mentally there, but it seems like we just rushed to the like, oh, like, you're so scared and you don't appreciate me and like, in the digs, it's, that's tough. That's really tough. I don't like that. He's 39 though. Oh, and he says he doesn't want another kid. Yeah. He could sit down and say, hey,

it's only happened when we've planned it, but I, I had that thought too, but like, it, it, it is hard as especially as you get older to get pregnant. I, like, it's always funny like we talk about this like in high school, you're like, oh, man, if you'd like look at a girl the wrong way, she can get her pregnant. And it's like, oh, it's actually kind of hard to get pregnant. There's like

windows and different things like you just don't know that. Probably smarter to tell them

that it's easy to get pregnant when they're younger. But so yes, I understand what you're saying, like, you can be very deliberate about when and how you do things like that's totally true, but again, if your wife wants it, it is fair to like, you know, my wife didn't have a c-section, but you know, went through different things that were obviously difficult and you're kind of just sitting there and like, okay, so all I have to do is just, you know, this one part and she does all the

rest of the stuff. And like, it does, I don't want to say there is a fairness element to it, but if it's the one thing that she's asking for and it's not that big of a deal and it's reversible, I'm not telling you what to do, dude, but like, it just seems like something that's pre-seasoned. Yeah, and the guy here in the of this is like 25 times easier than the woman version of this, right, too. So we don't have that in your corner. Yeah, I don't know. I like, I don't think you can say,

like, you know what, maybe I would have been more receptive, but you just bet really nasty about this.

“And like, I don't think, I think you're waiting for a year, too. I think you even lose points there,”

too. So this is a tough one. I don't know. Maybe you could do the March Madness thing. Just hold her off till those two weeks. But I don't know. Is it tough because like, your pride's involved in multiple ways? So I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't understand how like, guys, because you're, you're less of a man, like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't understand that.

Because I'm humor is not a stand that intelligent humor. It's just like, oh, you're going to just like guys making fun of each other. I'm just saying, like, this guy clearly thinks like, hey, I would be less of myself if I had a recipe, which I just don't really understand. Like, what, what do you want to go around? Like, if you wanted to go around spreading seed, you couldn't, again, it's reversible. Like, I don't know what, like, how big of a deal this is.

But he doesn't even want to do that. That's not even part of his argument. I, I'm going to tell you, man, you're not making a great case in this email. And I will tell you, every one of my friends that has had it, anyone that even had anxiety about it was like, I can't even believe I had anything excited about this whatsoever. It couldn't be simpler. So there's that. I mean, when you lay out that she is sitting there saying, hey, I went through this, I went through this,

went through this. I would like you to do this for me. It's going to be hard for, like, maybe that's the end of the fall. So it'd be like, absolutely not, bro. Hold the line.

I don't know if you think you would win. Her negotiation skills suck. If we want to give him some

credit, it's like, she's now, I don't want to do it. I definitely don't want to do this for you, because it sounds like what it's you called. She called him a pussy, a baby, like a bunch of like that. And like, from your wife, I could just imagine how the, it's going to be, yeah, maybe that's the stop. Yeah. No, I mean, you can't have that. That's the other thing too.

You've known her this long. Okay, you've been together. You love this person. You want to spend

the rest of your life with them. But now she's bullying you. Yeah. But here's my, my question you, are you less likely to get it? Because you don't like her approach. Like the fundamental thing, you would be more willing to say, yes, too, that she desperately wants if she sold it better

“or differently. Well, that's how she should probably do it that if that's part of the resistance.”

No, I agree. But I mean, there's, I'm not going to say there's no one you get mad at,

then you're, then you're significant other. But there's a certain lane that of, of like anger and frustration that you can only have with somebody who knows you so well, it can get to you so well. You know what I mean? The thing doesn't last forever. But I'm saying, there's a certain lane, like sort of how like Steve says what he's like driving in the car. It's like, that's, there's only a certain type of mad. I can get driving in the car and mad may may not be the right

word, but like frustration or whatever. And like I could see this fitting into that perfectly. Like she's taunting me about this thing that I am for like, we're better. We're scared of doing it. I feel uncomfortable about it. And she's like now resorted to like bullying me and like a 13 year old version of bully. So I could see how that's like a recipe for frustration. But I think it should probably end and probably ends with you. You losing this one. Maybe you just don't tell her about it.

“You just do it on your time. Although you, I guess you have to have the recovery. So she would know.”

But Kyle had that brings up a good point. Do it around a time where like you want to just do nothing and sit in the couch for a weekend. That's the best way to do it. When they're going to visit her folks, can't be true. I'm like, yeah, sorry dude. You know, I just, yeah, silly week in the head. Yeah. I'm going to miss church group. You're a pantry thing. Yeah. You're family reunion in Washington. I don't, I think I'm busy that one. That would be kind of the ultimate gift back if it's about

the competition. Pick the weekend. You desperately don't want to do something that she wants to do.

“I think you're all right. You get one. You get one. All right. That'll do for the show. Thanks Kyle.”

Thanks, Steve. Thanks Tom. Kevin. The Ryan R. Solisho. Our school sports.