S2E40: Ibogaine Inquiries Part II: The Intelligence of the Medicine

not legal in the United States, can be dangerous when administered improperly and is not

appropriate for everyone. This series is not intended as medical advice or an endorsement of treatment. The experience is described by guests reflect their personal accounts, and listeners should conduct extensive research and consult qualified medical professionals before making any decisions related to Ibogaine or other psychedelic substances.

Hi everyone, this is Kai Dickens, and welcome to the Ibogaine Increase, a miniseries from TT Media, exploring one of the most promising, controversial, and misunderstood substances in the world of mental health and addiction recovery. Ibogaine has been described as a treatment, a molecule, a psychedelic, a dangerous drug,

“a sacred medicine, a key to consciousness, and the deeper you go, we discovered that it”

becomes harder to fit inside any one category, and that's because Ibogaine is not just a story about a substance that can help cure addiction or PTSD or seemingly reset the brain. It's also a story about a plant that seems to pull people into some of the strangest and most meaningful experiences of their lives. And this week on the Ibogaine Increase will be exploring just that, people having life

reviews, or encounters with a guide, or conversations with ancestors, often they have shared visions, telepathy, people can see through blindfolds, again and again the feeling is that the medicine is not just producing hallucinations, but showing people exactly what they need to see. In our last episode, we looked at why Ibogaine is suddenly moving from the margins and

into the center of Western policy conversations. We heard from people whose lives were changed by what happened under its influence, and we began asking how sacred African plant became one of the most talked about treatments for

“addiction, PTSD, mental health, and trauma in the United States.”

But that rise comes with some complicated questions, because Ibogaine at its core is not just a treatment. It challenges our ideas about consciousness. In this episode, we go deeper into the mystery and the unsettling possibility that this plant may be working through an intelligence that we do not yet understand.

Dr. Joseph Barsuglia, former pastor-turn psychedelic researcher, has a uniquely blended view of Ibogaine coming from both the scientific and spiritual standpoint. He describes some of the mysterious experiences while offering a grounded perspective as a doctor. So, my name is Dr. Joseph Peter Barsuglia.

I'm a clinical psychologist and a psychedelic researcher. I've been working with Ibogaine for over a decade, and prior to that, I worked in a church. I was a worship minister, went to seminary, and did pastoral counseling, and then went into psychedelic research.

“I think it's good to situate Ibogaine in the landscape of psychedelics.”

This is really in the deep end of psychedelics. People refer to Ibogaine as the Mount Everest of psychedelics, because of its intensity and how long it lasts. It's very uncomfortable, it's mentally very challenging. Being able to witness people that have taken Ibogaine, it's, for me, as a psychologist

and a therapist, it's the most powerful transformation I've ever seen.

In my own work, and then what people commonly say is in their own life, it's a peak, spiritual experience, the most healing they've ever received. The kind of transformations you see with Ibogaine is that people are able to access pain and trauma and things that have been blocked or walled off. Things that are even way beyond the conscious or the subconscious mind, things connected

to their ancestry, like multi-generational events on a spiritual level. There's divine visitations, there are divine insights that come in that people report receiving messages about their soul, about who they are, about their purpose, about what's blocking them. Just as Admiral Jim reports in the last episode, people will come out of the experience

feeling like their brain is brand new.

Oftentimes, it's the first time people report feeling like they have a newborn brain.

But this isn't just a feeling experience or's have. It's hard science backed up by brain scans. People report after Ibogaine that their vision improves, and so we saw this kind of reflected in this brain scan, we did a couple brain scans, we published one of them, but the other ones showed a similar finding of this increased blood flow in the occipital lobe of the

brain. And this reflects something that's really unique about Ibogaine, which is that when people take Ibogaine, they can often see what their eyes closed, and they will have eye shades on. But you can hold up fingers and they'll tell you how many fingers you're holding up.

And it was interesting to see on these brain scans that these parts of the brain associated with vision had significantly more blood flow connected with them.

shows, but the incident of this occurrence while under Ibogaine or Ibogaine's influence

“is very well documented across the world, and now is a good time to clarify the difference”

between Ibogaine and Ibogaine. And by the way, when Dr. Joseph says the traditional context, he's referring to people in West Africa who've been using Ibogaine as part of tradition for thousands of years. The difference is that in the traditional context they're using Ibogaine, the part of the plant is the root, and it's the root bark.

In the middle layer of the bark of the root, that's where the ocaloids are, and there are many ocaloids in the plant. Ibogaine is just one ocaloid, so most of the clinics are using Ibogaine, which is like a pharmaceutical extract of that. So you might think of like THC and cannabis, like in cannabis, there's a lot of different

compounds THCs, the most common one, Ibogaine and Ibogaine are kind of like that. Ibogaine is a plant native to West Africa, from which the ocaloid Ibogaine is derived. You cannot have Ibogaine without Ibogaine, in the same way you cannot have THC without marijuana. One common experience that we find particularly fascinating is that people experiencing Ibogaine will actually report seeing an African guide, regardless of where they are, or if they even

knew the plant was from Africa. How can this be logically explained? This is if the molecule itself is aware of its origins.

“Ibogaine is considered an oneophonic drug, which means it induces dreams, and so I think”

it's a catalyst, and there's something really unique about Ibogaine that people will have visions of Africa, or see African elders, even if they're not doing it in an African context. So I think there's something in the molecule and in the plant that has its own narrative and its own consciousness, even its own sense of humor, people will see kind of funny imagery

and cartoons in Ibogaine that they could never manufacture, like there's no people say,

there's no way that came from me. So there's something that is coming in from the outside. And then Ibogaine also being a dream inducing medicine, it reveals things to you that are deeply personal and biographical, and things that are associated with your own subconscious. So there's this dynamic interplay between the intelligence of the medicine and its own

perhaps agenda, which seems to be healing in love and peace and oneness with nature and a person's own psychology and what they bring to it. And one of the beautiful things about Ibogaine is that often brings people back to their childhood, both memories that may have been beautiful and innocent and pure as well as things that may have been forgotten or challenging or times where there are ruptures in relationships

or you didn't feel safe. And so it's part of the root etymology of the word of Ibogaine means to care for. And so it feels like there's this interplay of a caring, loving, healing consciousness that is coming through the medicine coupled with what do you need healing for or what areas of your life need care and attention, but what is universal afterwards is how clear

people feel and how centered and grounded people feel after this experience. These concepts are things many people relay when sharing their experience. Our producer Katherine has heard this from various experts, including award-winning documentary filmmaker Lucy Walker, I'll let the two of them take it from here. I sort of think of it as in the sort of theme park of Ibogaine, there are some kind of set rides

and people will have the same sorts of experience. Lucy who has spent years documenting the story of Ibogaine has experienced the plant many times herself. While a materialist at heart, she still attests to some of the unexplainable journeys the plant will take users on.

There's a very strange experience which you can kind of describe or understand in different ways where you appear to see not just through your eyelids, but if you're wearing a blindfold completely through your blindfold. And the experiences that you can see the room and the around you and it's very confusing and you can see a notebook and you can't tell is your eyes closed, is your blindfold

“on, is the right thing in the notebook already or are you about to write the notebook?”

I mean, things get kind of very much eaten there.

And perhaps even more extraordinary is something that happened during her first experience

with Ibogaine. She and another participant actually shared the exact same vision. I had this very specific vision about faces melting, as they twisted, there was a spindle with specific masks with specific expressions and I could describe the whole thing. And as we sat up, after our first, probably six hour round of Mensa, the guide and

charge went around and asked all the different activists of lying on the mats on the floor

And the first vision that the first person sat up and told us was the same exact vision

I had just had. And I was sort of a bit confused and thinking, "No wait, I must have gone first, I must be getting confused here because he's describing the masks melting on the spindle and the same expressions and the same kind of face masks and I'm sort of just absolutely thrown." And I could have put up my hand and they said, "Yes, I said, "Well, he's describing

my vision. That's I just saw that. That's the one I saw. What's going on?" The guide said, "Oh, yes, you can catch dreams."

So I sort of thought, "Okay, we're in a, we're entering strange territory here.

I have certainly never had the experience of catching anybody else's dreams.

“I'm a pretty grounded, skeptical type, honestly.”

And I am a great believer in psychedelic science and a great, a one-of-believer of so many other things. But I must say, I keep my filter up very high and I've already had a few experiences I really can't kind of fathom, just can't reconcile with my own side and, like, brain work." Yeah, exactly.

But this one was really, okay, we're entering, we're entering, we're entering strange and powerful territory, was by absolute first indication. Where synchronicity happens and where the questions just seem too meaningful, too unlikely to sort of be made coincident, so I think that's where it starts to get really interesting. And that vision, where me and somebody across the room had the exact same vision, and

that certainly got my attention, because that didn't seem statistically plausible whatsoever.

“While it may not be statistically plausible, it is certainly happening across the board,”

with many people reporting the exact same thing. I spoke with Talia Eisenberg, co-founder of another clinic that administers Ibegin treatments in Mexico about her experience with Ibegin, as well as the unique experiences the clinic has been tracking. My name is Talia Eisenberg, I'm a co-founder of Beyond Ibegin, we're a facility, and we also

have our own research department, we're located in Cancun, Mexico, and the reason why I founded Beyond in 2021 was because back in 2011, I was in my early 20s, and I had a pretty severe opiate addiction. After years of struggling with addiction, a friend of Talia's who had also been addicted to opioids returned from a session with Ibegin completely changed, so as a last resort,

she turned to it as well.

“So I myself went and did Ibegin, and I had a very profound awakening, it wasn't easy.”

Ibegin is different for everybody, what it shows you, what it does. For me, I had a very real connection to my grandmother who had survived Auschwitz, who, for me, taught me what love was as a child, and was just full of light, this woman, and a beautiful person who was not angry, she forgave the Nazis, and lived with such kindness, and forgiveness, and went on to help many other people.

I saw her, and it was as clear as day, like she came to me, and she, you know, I could see the parchment thinness of her skin, it was very vivid, and this is a hallmark about Ibegin. It's not like a hallucination, it's very real, the image, it's as if you're in this other realm, and you're lucid and aware, and very clear in your thought. She came into me, and I could still see, like, the wrinkles on her skin, and her parchment

thin skin, and piercing blue eyes, and she said to me, "Get your life together, stop poisoning yourself, our family lineage survived, everyone else was killed around me." But our... I, when I talk about it, our family survived so that you could be here and be of service to the world, stop poisoning yourself.

So, for me, that was a huge awakening, I was an atheist, I didn't believe in anything bigger

than myself, but this woke me up, and I vowed to never touch opiates, alcohol, harmful

drugs like cocaine again, and I happened, that was more than 15 years ago, it's not just about Ibegin, the medicine, or Boge and the medicine, but it connects you to the other side. Her experience completely altered the trajectory of her life. She knew she was being called to a new path. I don't think that happened to me that sometimes happens to people, not always.

Was that I saw almost like a timeline of my life, it showed me if I go this way, and

If I continued to use these drugs, I will end up dead soon. But if I go this other way, you know, and this is where free will and choice comes in,

I was shown very vividly also a place where people could come, and basically find their

truth in themselves again, people that are lost, and it looks exactly like the first facility we have and still have down to the way the pool is set up, the physical layout of the space.

“But show me one day if I choose that could be part of my destiny if you want to call it.”

And I realized still it's a choice. I had to make that choice and do the work to get there, but you know, we met with one realtor five years ago, and this was the first place we saw and it looks exactly like the place and that vision. Wow, so how were you able to get things going in a safe way as someone who had just sort

of experienced it and had this vision? I knew I'm not a scientist, I'm not a doctor, and we were able to hire, there's only a few doctors at the time that really understood eye-begined protocols, and we were able to hire a number of doctors when we opened beyond and developed protocols. Something falling into place for Talia's clinic sort of affirmed for her the greater intelligence

of this substance and how she had connected with something much bigger than herself. So that told me a lot about consciousness, and there's a lot of, I mean, the answer to questions related to consciousness, but this, but eye-begined from what we've seen now, is certainly a tool that one theory is that our brains and nervous systems are like channels, you know, TV channel, and there's years of trauma and suffering and pain can

create static, and eye-begined may allow individuals to have a clear connection to parts

“of themselves, or a greater consciousness if you want to call it that and see what they”

need to do to make changes.

Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for, because I want lighter fabrics, pieces

that feel good, the sake that you put them on, and things that can go from work to dinner without feeling overdone. That's why I love quints. They focus on high-quality essentials, like breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, and beautiful jewelry without the luxury markup.

It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but it's still easy and affordable. There are 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops, are the pieces you reach for all summer. They're lightweight, effortless, a style, and started just $32. I recently bought the Flonet Breeze short sleeve pillow, and it's perfect for going to work

or going out on a boat or to a concert in the park. The big thing for me is that quints works directly with ethical factories, and cuts out the middle then, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. I personally love their 100% European linen long-save shirt, because in California, you go from super hot to super cold, and it's perfect for layering an easy to throw in a bag.

I also love their 100% European linen, high-waisted shorts. They look so good in classic if you're going to the pool or to the beach or just to a summer barbecue. Here's summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quints.com/tapes for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

Now available in Canada too. That's QU-I-N-C-E.com/tapes for free shipping and 365 day returns, quints.com/tapes. Okay, so you had this completely profound experience with your grandmother.

“What other experiences are common in people who come through your clinic?”

There's a lot of observational data.

We've had several thousand people come through, and there's incredible stories in miracles

that happen. Roughly 25% over the last few months are able to see the room with a blindfold on, and some of these people report that they can feel the nurse or somebody coming into the room. Before they come into the room, they see their face, and then they take the blindfold off, and it's them in the room.

Some guests will have similar visions, so we sometimes people are treated individually or together. One guest, for example, will have the same imagery, like these birds will fly at them, and the other guests at the same time will have a similar imagery. Things like that happen, so they're accessing the same state of consciousness at the same

So not only does Ibygaine seem to be bringing experiences of its influence together in

“a shared space of consciousness, vision, and connection, it often seems to connect them”

to the other side of life itself, like with Talia's grandmother. But with one experience or his connection to the other side, came real-time evidence to back it up. We had a guest who recently, their family member, were expected to pass away, but they didn't know when they crossed over during the Ibygaine stream months, and mind you in

the day before the day of and the day after we asked people to kindly give up their phones so that they can go inward. So as this person was under the influence of Ibygaine, their family member passed away, unbeknownst to anyone at the clinic, since all phones were put away. When this person received their phone back a day later, it was verified, like they had

a full-on conversation with their father, who had left his body during their Ibygaine treatment, and they had connected with them.

“Their father had comforted them and said it's okay, it's my time to go, had a full conversation”

very vividly, and then it was verified afterwards when they were given their phone back. So that just tells us all these anecdotes are true. It's another example of how it connects you to another route, it's not just a hallucination. Here's Dr. Martin Polanco from last episode, who runs a different Ibygaine clinic in Mexico, discussing some of the similar experiences he's come across.

He believes Ibygaine gives us the ability to open up channels to access a greater consciousness or intelligence. Ibygaine seems to open one of those channels, that, you know, it's very unique, and when it's starting, it's almost like the screens suddenly open up, and you have access to information from the past, information from the future, you know, how your own brain works,

different voices that we're hearing, and even inside of the experiences we've seen people exchange information telepathically. So they would do their journey in the same room, and then people who did not know each other, they knew something about the other person, it's like, "Oh, you had this experience when you were a child and the other person would confirm it."

Again, it's very hard to validate this scientifically, but there's just so many anecdotes that we've seen that it just becomes an amyloble. Other researchers share the same sentiments as Talia and Martín. What they both have been observing are not just happening at clinics. They're happening with real scientists who are backing up the notion that Ibygaine works

in mysterious ways they've never seen before.

I spoke with Dalibor Somaz at Columbia University, who's fascinated by how this alkaloid works in the brain. My name is Dalibor Somaz, your Dalibor Somaz, I'm a professor of chemistry and neurochemistry here at Columbia University, New York City. I have been interested in this question of how molecular information or information encoded

in molecules can express itself in effects of consciousness and subjective experiences. Initially found his way to Ibygaine while looking for substances that have special functions, like the ability to restore synaptic connections in the brain, or our brain's ability to send messages. "I was familiar with Ebola colloids, I was familiar with them as interesting structures,

interesting substances, but I didn't know they have this remarkable potential and ability." What peaked as interest in particular was the molecule's ability to totally disrupt addiction.

He'd never seen anything like it before.

I came across these reports of observational studies showing this remarkable effect of Ibygaine to interrupt addiction, particular opioids, and cocaine. That was almost hard to believe that you could have some one actively dependent on opioids or other brain-forcing drugs and basically remove that dependence within a few hours. So that was really a shocker and since then, my team here, we have been asking the question,

“is it even possible or is this for real or is it some sort of a snake oil?”

But after studying Ibygaine more and more, his team acknowledges it's certainly isn't, and addiction recovery truly seems to be the tip of the iceberg. That we hear about Parkinson's disease and potentially others. So it, the current play today, it looks like Ibygaine has the transdiagnostic potential and on top of it, these remarkable psychoactive and psychedelic effects and the subject

of effects. So it's a rich, rich terrain, rich package, and so the question was, well, how does it work? How does it work? How can it have transdiagnostic potential the way that it does? How does it know exactly what each individual's body needs?

The messages are quite quite astounding because they report things like unbexcanned. This feeling that there's other entity and unbexcanned, and this, this Ibygaine is

insights into that, that to me is really suggestive or indicative of some sort of it.

“You know, I think of it as some sort of a healing algorithm and you have very common the presence”

of eboga spirit or Ibygaine or ancestors or other entities. So there's this feeling of there's some other intelligence involved here and then the ability to to simulate different versions of reality. Some experiences are fully immersive, holographic, it just appears this, you know, highly

sophisticated, basically a psychotech, what I call it, the technology.

Because of this, Dallabore and his team struggle to even compare it to anything else. It has become such a puzzle and such a challenge for us because Ibygaine doesn't seem to fit to existing paradigms or to existing ideas or concepts that we teach in school how drugs work in the body. In what way is it not fitting our current paradigm of other psychedelics?

How is it so mysterious to you? Yes, great question.

“So classically we explain how drugs work, including psychedelic substances, that once they enter”

the body, they interact with these special molecules called receptors.

So they largely bind and change the receptors these molecules, they're advancing all the

times. So they're moving, it's not static. So you have this dance going on and all of a sudden a neurotransmitter comes or at compounds like LSD comes, binds to the receptor, changes completely, the dance. So traditionally psychedelics like LSD or Sylasibon will come into the brain, bind to our receptors

and change the way they're moving, which can dramatically affect our experience and perception. However, Dallibor says Ibogaine does not behave in the same way. It doesn't really, with few exceptions, it doesn't really act on these receptors. It's interacting with many different molecules, they're outside of these receptors and it's not very important.

It's quite weak. It's more like brushing. So imagine a traffic grip that Manhattan and the traffic jam that Manhattan. But if you use the logic of psychedelics or other drugs, you would say, well, let's go to a hub and major hub, let time squared, and let's relieve the traffic there through

opening new streets or lanes and things like that, and then you hope that this effect then propagates through the whole grid. If we picture Ibogaine this analogy, it's more like coming in and modifying traffic throughout the whole grid. It concentrates on the business street, but it has one, two, three multiple interactions,

but it also modulates far away and state that there's some sort of a logic, some sort of a greater molecular logic, or even maybe somehow it's reading the entire system and modulating and adjusting the whole system. So we have scientific evidence to support this very complex picture.

“I think it's a completely different molecular technology that we have ever seen.”

Ibogaine may be such a game changer because of the fact that unlike any other substance

he's come across, it can change the entire brain system. Ibogaine is a teacher, so it's showing us things that we have not really seen before, and it's showing us the complexity, yeah, I'm really fascinated with this idea, what is the logic, and where it has come from, it leads us to a complete different, different paradigms. I see Ibogaine and I Voga on the level of impact as antibiotics and people forget how transformative

antibiotics have been and they are, so for mental health, neurological health, and spiritual health, I see Ibogaine as on that level. Ibogaine is certainly on the level of its own. Let's now return to Chi's conversation with Dr. Martin Polanco to talk a bit more about the scanning process Ibogaine seems to elicit that potentially forces us to think outside

of the current paradigm of substances. Part of the felt experience with Ibogaine is also this process of scanning, like that the molecule is coming in, or the essence of the molecule, or the spirit of the molecule, enacting an AI diagnostic system that it does is assessment, the small-teethread, analysis of different systems, and then it detects which areas have structural damage, where there's

maladaptive patterns, and then it starts very targeted repair, and people in the experience that can actually feel it working on specific areas where they have injury, where it's their knee or specific areas of their brain, and then the vision that they have is often of these little microbiots that are like in their kind of repairing things. It's fascinating.

We don't really understand what's going on, and the mechanism of action is quite opaque

and modern psychopharmacology really cannot explain everything that's going on. It seems to reset, serotonin, and dopamine transporters, which are affected by addiction. So in a way, it's helping the brain repair and regrow, but that's not the whole story. There's so much more going on as well. Despite the mysterious and intriguing effects of Ibogaine, as well as the plethora of positive

outcomes, every expert we spoke to had words of caution. So Ibogaine affects the heart and can prolong an interval in the EKG, reading called the QT interval, so there's a QTC prolongation, which can lead to a more severe type of arrhythmia. An arrhythmia is an irregular heartbeat when the heartbeat is either too fast or too slow,

or the actual pattern of the heartbeat is inconsistent. And that can be mitigated through the use of magnesium. It requires quite a bit of medical infrastructure, so it's easier to start with other psychedelics that are less onerous from a medical standpoint and less expensive. There is a lot of clinics out there, some that are doing great work, and it's important

to meet all the kind of physical requirements, the health requirements, get an EKG. We do echocardiograms on people, we get lab work, so it's a pretty comprehensive screening process. Here's Talia with Catherine again. This is not for everybody, many people come who are in dire situations who are struggling,

veterans struggling with suicide, or those that have severe addiction issues and have tried everything, and I've against the last house on the block, but I just wanted to

“state that first, because I think it comes with our responsibility, both from a media perspective”

and it's a clinic founder and owner. Despite the warnings, things seem to be taking off at an increasingly rapid rate. Trials are underway, funding is lined up, and researchers are eager to move this train along. Here's Dr. Dalibor Samaj again from Columbia University.

He co-founded a company dedicated to this research. Well, I'm a co-founder of Gilgamesh Pharma, and we put together Gilgamesh because nobody really cared about ibogen and other psychedelics, certainly the pharmaceutical industry was, as you know, on it, that was a taboo for a long time. So we started our own company, and Gilgamesh has multiple research programs, one of the

areas, is ibogen analogues. So the idea here in the goal is, can we take these novel e-boga molecules that were created in my laboratory? Can we generate safer ibogen compounds?

Molecules are basically like children of ibogen, so they're inspired by the parent, and

we're creating versions. None of them will be exactly like ibogen, I don't think. But we may get pretty close, or we may create a new generation. They will have its own special features and characters.

“Can we generate an entire portfolio of ibogen like therapeutics?”

But what are the implications of these therapeutics? Is anything lost if new versions are created? If this plant is indeed conscious and a teacher, does it want us to be doing this? And in order for ibogen to be used, oftentimes the plant is being taken from the forests of West Africa.

Dr. Samas is aware of the consequences of that, and doesn't want the supply burden to fall on that part of the world, which is in part why he's working on creating ibogains synthetically. However, as we'll hear about in the next few episodes, even if ibogen is chemically created in a lab, it can have direct impact on communities in Gabon Africa.

However, his excitement is clear, and it's understandable.

His plant is clearly incredibly powerful.

He thinks it's knowledge might really have the ability to change science and the world.

“I really think it's a novel molecular technology, and I also believe strong way that to be”

able to understand it and learn from it, we will need something like a human genome project. We will need a major project, initiative, you know, national, international initiative to really go deep. Because this is the boldest version of my theory that I think of that we may find out that ibogen is more of a molecular algorithm.

Ibogen may actually be its own version of molecular intelligence. And from so much of what we've been hearing throughout these interviews, it's a loving intelligence. The plant is so special, and if it is indeed conscious, the intention behind it is certainly pure. It wants to help people and wants to further society.

It's a loving being. I believe that. And even if it's very stern and direct, that's like the highest form of love in a way.

think it's a hallucination.

Because hallucinations are usually based on deep fears or deep desires.

“This is, you know, you need to do this clear as day and later, months later, it still rings”

as true. Whereas like hallucinations sort of fade off afterwards, this is around. That's very much real. And a level of truth that I hear over and over from clients, just with how that it's a true serum.

And it can be very damning and very direct and not fun to look at these parts.

“But it's what you need to hear to live a better life, you know, and that can come”

down to love.

And it really showed me actually how the light always wins.

Like, I began as this loving force. And in the end, there's all this strife and there's wars and there's chaos and it's humans hurting other humans and our bills thinking and our fear of minds, but how the light prevails. I did see like the African like where we come from as humanity and the struggle of it all. And how we need that struggle to evolve.

It was very, very powerful.

Talia also identifies a concern that we'll hear more about in the next episodes. It's one many in Gabon have as well. There's a 747 a day of overdoses in the U.S. and then, you know, the veterans suicide is awful, it's serious. So what we need to move fast, but we need to be rigorous and not move too fast, rigorous with

the science. We in the West have our own views of science and how to administer this medicine.

“But the truth is there have been thousands of years of practice, knowledge, and research”

about Aboga done by the communities in Gabon, Africa. What would happen if we started mass producing the sacred compound? What are we losing by severing Aboga from these ancient and time-honored traditions? Maybe most importantly, what does this all mean for people in Gabon? That's next time on the Ivegan inquiries.

If you enjoyed this podcast, you'll find even more on the main telepathy tapes feed, where each week we explore consciousness, human potential, and the mysteries that challenge are understanding of reality. (upbeat music)