Breaking News: Israel Shuts Down Christ’s Resurrection Site. Bishop Strickland & Tucker Respond.

Bishop Strickland, thank you so much for doing this.

What do you make of the closure of the Church of the Holy Seplicer by Israeli authorities on Palm Sunday? Well, really Tucker, probably some things have developed even since the last thing I saw, but it looked like they were designing to open it after all or whatever. To me, really Tucker, this comes down to a consequence of the evil that we see that we're witnessing.

“And I think we need to pay attention to it in that context as we already discussed the large scale destruction of civilian life.”

It's never morally justifiable by any entity, but for any reason, it's just not.

And to me, the closure of the Holy Seplicer, the Holy Seplicer for us, there's so many in the Holy Land. But the closure of that and not allowing the procession of Palm Sunday is a tragic consequence of just how far off the mark. Really, the world is at this point in so many ways and what's going on there, we must speak calmly, lovingly, clearly, that no, we can't allow this. And the closure to me is just one of many tragic consequences where this has to be addressed and we've got to keep going back to that principle,

that the large scale destruction of civilian life can never be morally justified.

“Amen, and I'm glad to hear at least one religious leader of the United States say that so clearly, I think that any believing Christian would agree with that as a foundational part of the faith.”

But you're hearing just the opposite and I want to ask with that in just to in it, but but you're, you don't seem like you believe that the church of the Holy Seplicer was closed for, quote, safety reasons. Well, I really don't know, Tucker, and maybe for some, making those decisions, that's the reason, but why is it. This chaos that surrounds it. So like I said, I think it's a, it's a consequence of everything we're seeing, which is immor and is destructive to humanity in, I mean, and very significant ways.

We're a man of history, and we all need to be people of history, and if we look at history, these days will be marked in history as a very devastating time similar to things that we can look back in the last 100 years, 200, 2000 years, that with these kind of moral. So that's the reason we're looking forward to this collaboration, begin to just take over. We need to speak up, and I really don't know the motivation for the closure of the Holy Seplicer. I mean, I can survive a lot of things. The opening or partial that I've heard about, I don't know if even that's accurate, that's part of I know what you're finding, and what we're all finding is so much misinformation, so many false messages, it's really hard to know what is true.

“And that's why I think it's so important, and I will be a broken record repeating, we can never justify the large scale destruction and devastation of civilian life as morally justifiable.”

We can't do that, and I think we have to keep going back to that home base with all the chaos that we're all dealing with. I think one of the things that we can say is that Christianity targeted or not, the court tends to Christianity, whether on purpose or not, is often in the crosshairs. We know that I believe talking to people in Jerusalem this morning that there were no synagogues completely closed. And we know that the Church of Holy Seplicer was not closed during the last two world wars. We know that the idea was to have a Catholic leader in three others in there for a live stream service, and that was banned.

It's hard to understand how this was done for safety reasons, and moreover, I wasn't aware that the government, the secular government of Israel owned the Church of the Holy Seplicer, or by the way, the Dom of the Rock, or were any other religious building owned by someone else in East Jerusalem.

I don't think it is true authority, and it is basically totalitarian saying, "We've got the power, we've got the bombs, we can do what we want."

“And that is, again, as we look at history and we look at this moment, that is about as scary as it gets to have that attitude, and sadly we're seeing that attitude.”

We are the ones with the power, so we are the ones calling the shots. Forgett, what is moral, forgett, what is true, forgett, what is historic, has historic precedent. I mean, I'm sure both of us, for some more years now, I get tired of the word unprecedented, because we hear it all the time.

But we're living in unprecedented times for all the more reason we need to go back to foundational pillars of life and faith.

“Of course, as a Catholic Bishop, Jesus Christ is that pillar that we keep returning to, listening to Him, looking at the model of His life, which flies in the face of anything violent.”

And that doesn't mean that He was not addressing the terrible issues of His life.

I mean, you mentioned, you used the phrase in the crosshairs.

The cross is where Jesus Christ died and ironically, and I'm sure it isn't lost on you, that in my experience as a Bishop and a priest, holy week is always a time where things are in the crosshairs, and it's different issues and different situations historically, but there's something about holy week that calls us back to who is Jesus Christ. Do we believe Him or not? And if we do, we must, moreover, be guided by His life, we must. It suggests that there's something else going on here, perhaps influenced by the spiritual where I'm going around us,

that Christians would be the targets since it is at its core, a religion that opposes violence against innocence and the destruction of innocence. And so here, I mean, a totalitarian regime, at least as you think of it in your mind, or I do, targets violence against its enemies. It's, you know, the threats. There's nothing less threatening than for Christian clergyman standing in an empty church, live streaming the sacraments, but they went after those guys. So what does that, what does that tell you of all the enemies? Why are they?

Well, really, really Tucker, what it tells me is that truth is threatening. And if you think about the drop of holy week, which we in the Catholic faith are in the midst of, when Jesus Christ is before Pilate, and that is historic reality for whatever your faith perspective, this Jesus of Nazareth stood before Pilate, the leader of the Roman Empire that was stationed there in Jerusalem. And Pilate says, "What is truth?" And the mom that was there, Pilate himself, everyone was threatened by this Jesus who we know, we believe, is truth incarnate. He is the truth.

“And as he's standing there, really Tucker, I think that is what's threatening, because those who are not living by the truth and hungry seeking the truth, which we all have to do.”

I don't claim to have it all figured out, but I look to Christ because he is the truth. For those who are promoting all of these things closure of holy sites and attack of innocent people, they are definitely threatened by the truth. Not by some propaganda, but by the real truth, they find it threatening. And to me, that really what Cardinal pizza balla and the others were going to try to do just a wide stream, very small scale, really, that was threatening, because it's about proclaiming truth, that really begins to cause people of good hearts, whether they have faith or not.

It causes the human instinct to say, "Why did it make it? What's going on? When they hear truth, that is disruptive. Not in a violent way, but just because truth cuts through it all."

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Get three months free at Hallow.com/tucker. We sincerely, passionately recommend it. One of the truths that seems the most threatening is that violence is not the answer.

And so the power of the world isn't the answer. That is what threatens them, and that's what they don't want to get into the hearts and minds of just everyday people.

They don't want that word to get out there. War isn't the answer. Sometimes, the church, the Catholic Church, has a doctrine of justifiable war, which is pretty strict and pretty clear and probably very few wars have qualified.

“And there are serious questions about this, where I think it's pretty much unqualified. But that's what we have to keep looking at. Look at the principles and it really took a what I would encourage your viewers and all of us.”

I mean, I'm just one of the viewers and many situations. I'm a bishop who doesn't even have a die season anymore, but I do have a apostolic call that I take very seriously. And I say to myself, to you, Tucker, as a good man, sinking truth, and all of us who are in this, we need to take a breath.

We need to call our hearts, and we need to simply seek the truth. I believe, and I feel compelled to proclaim to the world, we know the truth. The truth sets us free. It's Jesus Christ.

And certainly, that was the threat that the Romans and the Jewish leaders wanted to get rid of. That's historic reality. They plotted to rid themselves of this truth problem. And in many ways, we see the same thing repeated. I mean, it gets masked in a lot of ways, but yes. Oh, and I pray daily, for the leaders of the world, forever in action, for leaders who have the power and the responsibility in this moment, to go back to those basic principles.

“They need to take a deep breath, and as themselves, is this true, what I'm promoting, what I'm doing, is it about the truth that sets us free?”

When we ignore the truth, that is when we are the most bound by violence and evil, and we're seeing it, it played out in our lifetime, running these moments on the TV screen, on our phones screens, on the airwaves, we're seeing ignoring truth has consequences, and it comes down to each of us individually. We ignored the truth that I am a simple man who needs to repent, and I need to seek the life that his Jesus Christ. When we tried to hide that to ignore it, to eliminate it, it doesn't go away. It will not be eliminated anymore than killing Jesus Christ on a cross in the first century eliminated the truth that he is.

It will not be eliminated, but a lot of innocence can be harmed when we think we can avoid the truth and do it our way and do it with our power. When we go down that path, it's destructive in so many ways, even to those individuals that are doing it, but the tragedy is the so many innocence that get lost in it, that we must speak against innocent lives, being just, the term is collateral damage, but that in itself says we have to be very careful about allowing our hearts to hearten that we just used terminology for innocence dying, other just collateral damage.

Can you summarize that for people who aren't familiar with what it is, just in broad terms, what's a justified war?

Well, there are four basic points that I can't claim that I can get all of them as, you know, it's pretty simple, most of the time the truth is pretty simple, but it has to be, the just for theory is based on, if war, when should be avoided if it all possible, if it is to be justified, it has to be proportionate, it has to be, that it can't be preemptive.

“It really, Tucker goes back in a lot of ways to the right to self-defense, the right to self-defense of one person, the right to self-defense of a nation.”

That is really the core of the just for theory. It has to be a real threat, not a perceived threat, not a future threat, but a real threat.

It has to be a proportion, I mean, you know, putting it on the just person-to-person context.

I mean, somebody slaps you, you don't shoot them. That is not proportional.

It has to avoid harming innocence that really have nothing to do with whatever the conflict is in any direct way. And so those basic points for what you're going to look at, it has to be, it has to have a reasonable expectation of success, that this will accomplish the protection of innocence that it should be about. And those points are what we have to keep looking at. And like I said, there are probably many wars in human history that would qualify as meeting all the criteria, some meet more than others.

I don't know that this, some conflict, they're not even calling it a war, and I think that tells us something. But this present conflict, I don't know that it qualifies down any of those points, because yes, there were some threat there, but it was it justifiable to immediately address that threat, which seemed to be of future threat.

“And they have been very real, I don't claim to know all of that, but I think the leaders are challenged to really look more deeply that, and certainly the idea that of protecting innocence.”

I mean, and again, I haven't been in any war rooms or heard the real discussion, but it seems, and what we're seeing, it's like we can expect, and we can plan for the collateral damage, which should be always stated as, we can plan for innocence to die because of this action, because that's what collateral damage really is talking about. So that, I think, is a reasonable, probably, not the most scholarly exposition of the just fourth theory, but those are the basic points, and again, if people say, I get so complicated, just think about defending yourself, defending your home, defending your family, you can't go out, and you have a neighbor that's talking crazy and go and put a bomb in their front yard.

“I mean, that's not proportionate, that is not reasonable, and it has to be something that is a reasonable, and I think one of the greatest points of the just fourth theory, is it, is it likely to be successful?”

Is it likely to have an outcome that brings more peace, more protection? Not just to the individuals that you're specifically responsible for, but brings it to the world, and so I think that we've got to honestly assess what is happening, and acknowledge that no nation seems to be really, and I love the United States. I would race as a patriotic kid, I still believe in a lot of the principles, but when we lose sight of the basic principles of our founding as a nation, or as of our faith of Christianity, or whatever unfaithless those basic principles have to guide us.

And we can't allow popular, popular opinion, or political agendas to override those basic moral values that should be the pillars that found us, that shape and that stabilize everything that is shaking in the world today.

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How would you assess that? Is that consistent with a just war?

No, and as you said, Tucker, we have to acknowledge that it is to directly do that, is it wrong?

“In more, going back to that basic principle I started with, any time civilian life is devastated, it's not morally, it's not done morally, it's not something we can just turn a blind eye and say, well, we gotta do this.”

The large scale destruction of civilian lives is never morally justified. Like I said, if I'm a broken record, making that point, I believe I need to be, because the more I think about that, the more I pray about that, the more I look at what's happening. It says, let's put a stop to this, let's pull back from this and understand from what I see in the news that there are efforts of talking about some sort of solutions, but the talk seems to always have much less focus and much less power behind it than the bonds and the destructive forces.

I guess that is, you know, by human nature, maybe that's somewhat natural that when you've got the power, it's hard to restrain yourself from using it.

We see that played out in so many ways, but that is where the moral values have to kick in for the individual man or the individual nation and the leader that is a man or a group of men or women that are leading a nation.

“They need to constantly go back to those principles and asking themselves, is this justifiable, is this something that is moral to do?”

And if it's not moral, then we should just put up a big bright red stop sign and say, we're not going to do this because it is morally questionable, much less clearly immoral. And when we go down the path of saying, well, we've got to do some immoral things. I mean, it's like the end justifies the means, I mean, some basic principles of philosophical, logical thought that have guided nations and individuals through history. You know, if we get on a path where we say, the end justifies the means, then the means can become so immoral that it's just devastating for not just the individuals or the nations evolve, but for all of humanity, we've got to be very cautious about going down that path.

And I'm afraid that many of the things that we've seen have crossed that line of just saying, we believe, yeah, this is evil, okay, it's evil, but we've got to do it for the good end. That is very dangerous territory. Also common, I think, I mean, people, as you said, who have power tend to misuse it, an often noted phenomenon because it's true.

So I guess what I'm saying is one of the battles here is over what Christianity is as a faith, and that seems to me a very important battle, certainly a conversation.

So what you're seeing some Christian leaders do is say, well, there's violence throughout the Bible, and God justifies it, in some cases, defend it through what the Christians call the Old Testament from beginning to end, there's violence against innocence.

“So it's therefore okay, what is your response to that?”

Well, Tucker quite simply, probably not surprising, my response is Jesus Christ.

If we claim, what can I do, and I do my best, I mean, I'm a sinner, I mess up all the time, we do individually, if we're smart enough to be humble enough to acknowledge that. We as nations and we as individuals, we get off the mark, we mess up, but we can always repent of that and seek again to follow the truth that is Christ. And that's the distinction that I would make, if people are calling themselves Christians, we are of the body of Christ that is His church, that and we have to look to Him.

“Yes, in the Old Testament, there are many examples of destructive power, but that is not the world that we live in, we believe that Jesus Christ has redeemed everything.”

And one of the key points of Jesus Christ, St Paul says it very well, we are neither Greek nor Roman, we are not individual nations, we are Christian, and to use Christianity as a weapon against one part of His body to another part of His body is, that's a misuse of the message of Jesus Christ. If we look to Him, I mean, He died of a cross because He embraced the fruitless as a man and as the son of God, but He was willing to do that. He was willing to personally receive the greatest violence of destroying His body and His human life for the sake of the peace that He brings.

And if we look to Jesus Christ, we can't justify the violence that we're seeing.

You can harken back to the Old Testament, but if you believe Jesus Christ is the new covenant that He came out of that world of the Old Testament, He is a Hebrew origin. And we should embrace that absolutely, that is historical reality, but He came to bring a new covenant into bring a redemption of all of that. And just one example of what Christ, if we look to Christ, He's often saying, yes, we used to do this, but this is the new way that through the Father's sending me to you is being revealed. It used to be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth that cannot be that way with us. He sent us to His disciples.

And we have to really listen to that. We may not like listening to Christ Himself, but that is what we're called to, especially if we call ourselves Christian. That is probably, as you point out, Tucker, one of the greatest issues that we have to face them because there are many non Christians in the world. And for Christianity to be really co-authed and hijacked in the way that we're seeing is is destructive to the message of truth that is Jesus Christ.

“I can imagine people saying, well, if this is what Christianity is really all about, I've considered it, but I'm not going to even look at Christianity, if that's what it's about.”

It's not what it's about, but when voices are saying, we can go again, going back to that basic idea of, we can destroy civilians. Violately and in drastic ways, and say that it's moral because we're claiming to be Christian. That's non-sensical, and it's a defensive to Christ Himself as anything could be.

So, I guess what I would say, the Christians that are claiming sort of old Testament justification show me that in Christ, and they're not going to find it.

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Visit Brooklynbedding.com, use the promo code Tucker, check out for 30% off, site wide, this offer, not available anywhere else. It does seem like this is an effort to co-op Christianity and change the world's understanding of Jesus, and it seems like holy week, maybe is particularly hard for people who want to do that, because the whole message of holy week is the opposite. I mean, you're the theologian, but I think Jesus is coming into Jerusalem at a time when it's occupied by foreign pagan authorities, they're pressing the people of Jerusalem, and a lot of people watching assume Jesus was going to liberate the city in some using force. He was the king, but he doesn't come in on a war horse. He comes in on a donkey and then submits to being tortured to death, because the victory is larger than a military victory. It's a final victory. It's a spiritual victory.

“And that seems like the message as a, you know, as a non-theologian Protestant, that seems like a very clear message, but you tell me, is that, is that the message?”

Tucker, you are spot on, and that's what I mentioned earlier in our conversation. Holy week is a week of drama, and so week of waking up and realizing the real message of Jesus Christ. I mean, it, the whole passion story of Christ is the elements there. I mean, we have Judas Iscariot, who, why did he betray Christ? I mean, I don't claim to be able to read his mind or his part, but the indications are he betrayed Christ because he wanted the kind of military leader that many wanted Christ trying for an entry into Jerusalem is,

it, it's a very interesting scene that we need to cut, to constantly go back to and look at, in terms of what's really going on. Just before Christ, as recorded in scripture, just before Christ enters triumphally into Jerusalem, the verses are talking about the authorities seeking and plotting to assassinate Lazarus. The one here raised from the death. What is really one of the most, it's in described in John, and it's one of the most amazing passages in the entire Bible. Jesus has just raised this man from the dead four days after his death.

One of the amazing things he did, the guys alive, and the religious authorities want to murder him. It's like, excuse me, it's amazing. It really is, and the drama is wrong there. We have to see it and recognize the way it continues to unfold in our lives.

I don't want to label anyone Judas the scary it, but we need to ask ourselves, every one of us, and I include myself, we have to be very careful and ask,

or we, it beginning to move in a direction that Judas the scary it would have approved. When we are saying, we want, hail Jesus, hail to the son of David, but we want to shape the son of David according to our agenda.

As he is truth, because he is God's divine son, what the world can throw at him, can't destroy him because he's beyond creation. He is the lord of creation, but he allows it to happen at a block for all of us, and you know, and the kind, I mean, it's just so rich with images that can be beneficial to all of us, but for us to hear Christ in this time, in this moment, in our history, for the world, for this nation, for the Catholic church for Christians, they hear Christ's saying, to those who are literally in the moment, nailing him to a cross, killing him, father forgive him, they know not what they do, to have that kind of mercy and compassion in your heart, is, and we've seen some saints that have echoed it.

“St. Stephen, the first martyr echoed his Lord in saying that, but that is, again, going back to where's the threat?”

That is a very threatening sentiment when you think, when the world thinks that the powers of the world can ultimately prevail, to hear the man being destroyed by the world, saying, father forgive them,

they know not what they do, it reminds us that we've got to retune our hearts and our minds to the message of Jesus Christ into face, everything we're facing.

It's like Holy Week being played out again at writ large in our time, the hidden messages and the plottings and the confusing, I mean, here we have things being hailed as wonderful and then underneath it, the underbelly is a darkness of plotting the destruction of innocence and the destruction of lives that really have nothing to do with this. So, once again, I go back to that idea of we have to, I mean, the gauge has to be the large-scale destruction of civilian life can never be morally justified, and, you know, with Christ, I mean, it was one man, but in terms of reality, in terms of the universe, trying to kill Jesus Christ, son of God,

Jesus of Nazareth, killing him, I mean, they were successful in killing him, he died on their graphs, but that is large-scale destruction of innocent life of civilian life, and that is the principle we just have to keep going back to, to keep really looking through, looking at everything through that lens and urging the leaders of Israel, the leaders of the United States, the leaders of Europe, the leaders of the world,

“to come together and to listen to the words of Jesus Christ, even those who don't believe him, because they are true words, they resonate in hearts, if people will just listen and really open their hearts to what he's saying.”

I mean, certainly, I believe the world will embrace Jesus Christ before it ends, that is prophecy, and that is logic, when the world will embrace truth, not everyone, we're all left with our free will, and that is, I mean, the free will of the individual and writ large, the free will of nations, and we see that in Old Testament, God doesn't necessarily stop. The free will of nations or individuals from doing something that God knows is contrary to truth, and the consequence of ignoring the truth, really, I mean, we can see it as God's punishment, but really, those deeper than that is simply, in conflict with reality, and when we oppose the truth, we're opposing reality, and the consequences will follow.

Maybe not immediately, but the consequences will catch up with us, when we ignore truth and Tucker, I know that the people that you interview as your wife, your career, your good work of doing your best to share truth, you're constantly talking to people who have themselves lived through the consequences, and hopefully awaken to the reality, I've got to follow truth.

When we decide, I'm going to consciously deviate from the truth, because I'm decided, I know better, that should be a huge caution, ultimately, stoplight for all of us, be very careful about going down that path, because we've seen it in history, and we see it in our time.

“When the individual says, I'm somehow above or outside the truth, then they may prevail for a moment, but it will always come to destruction.”

There was a controversy six weeks or so ago around a woman called Carrie Precian Boller, who was a member of the president's religious liberty task force. She was expelled from it, really I, from my reading for two reasons, one, she called attention to the deaths of innocence in Gaza, and made the point that their lives were as valuable as anyone else's. And two, she refused the basic tenants of Zionism, political Zionism, and said that she didn't have to sign up for that as a Christian, and she was expelled for that, and there were a number of religious leaders, Christian leaders, who approved of her expulsion, in fact, who made it possible.

“You weighed in on this. Can you tell us why you, why you did that, and what you said?”

Yeah, and thank you Tucker. Well, really, again, you know, I'm a simple guy, and it comes down to basic simple truth, ultimately, and truth is simple.

Yes, it's deep, it's rich, it's hard to fathom, but it's not complicated in the way that our world is so often complicated.

“As you said, I think Carrie was removed, because they didn't like the truth she was speaking, the truth about Gaza, which is verboten by many, the innocence that have devastatingly died there is just horrible, it truly is a Holocaust of our time.”

But she was, they didn't like that truth, and they didn't like the truth of her pushing back against the agenda that is saying, this political Zionism is something that Christians need to embrace.

No, it's not, and the Catholic Church is very clear. For everything that I've seen, I had a conversation with Carrie before I put out my statement, and I had the conversation because I was hearing things, and I just wanted to really, my intention with reaching out to Carrie was just to be a pastor and offer her some support and some consolation. In the midst of that conversation, she basically challenged me and asked me, Bishop, if what you're saying you really believe, my message to her, if I really believed it, was I willing to publicly speak it, and I told her, I would pray about it, and I would consider it.

But even this, and I told her that I would pray about it, I knew in my heart that, you know, I was, as we say, sometimes Christians say, I was convicted.

I knew that if I was going to be the man I want to be, if I was going to be the Christian that I want to be, I had to speak up, and to not attack anyone, but simply say, you know, and what I tried to do, and a rather several more words than this, but basically was say, Carrie was removed from that committee, because she was speaking truth that the powers that he didn't want to be spoken, and because of that, we, I felt the need to speak out for her. Now, I don't think Carrie claims to be a send-less, some sort of perfect woman, but she was right in what she was speaking.

You know, people can say, I mean, very often, and I know you hear this all the time, you know, people will, when they don't like the truth that's being said, though very often go after the tone.

We can hopefully not give violent, but we can get very animated in how we're going back.

“But I think that that's what people really pretty cleverly will say, oh, it was the tone.”

Well, yeah, sometimes the tone, but sometimes it may be appropriate, when truth is being ignored, we need to get attention sometimes.

And again, looking to crisis the model, I mean, he said, love your enemy, but he also was willing to call a spade a spade.

And when the leaders that he was speaking with were clearly not in the line of truth, he was willing to get pretty animated in the way he spoke to them and said things like, you brewed a virus, and I think that was actually John the Baptist.

“Christ said those kinds of things to the leaders because that's what truth demands sometimes.”

We should not return to violence in order to stand for the truth, but we should do it with vigor, with strength. And to me, that's where Carrie was rejected primarily because they didn't want her to speak that truth, and they, you know, as you've seen it.

Well, if you're, I think you're an example, Dr. I mean, you were a man speaking truth and they tried to silence Carrie was speaking truth, they tried to silence her and ultimately backfires.

And when it's when it is truth, when someone or a group is speaking truth, trying to oppose that, it does backfire. I think of Gameliel and the acts of the Apostles, a Jewish leader who said, y'all need to be careful. If this is a God, you'll find yourself finding God, if it's not a God, then it'll go away on its own. What Gameliel is saying truth, why has truth prevails, truth continues because of the essence of what it is, it is truth. And we see that over and over again, when truth is being proclaimed, and whatever powers of the world try to squelce that truth, try to silence it. So often, I mean, Jesus Christ, what is the whole drama of Jesus Christ, the world, the powers that were in the first century, tried to eliminate him.

And where are we now in the 21st century, he is still that voice of truth that can and should guide us. So Carrie was removed as one voice echoing the truth that is Jesus Christ. She was removed because of that and look what's happened. Her voice has grown. And no idea who Carrie, preaching bowler was before she got removed. And then I ended up making a statement about her. That is a beautiful example of what we all need to remember for ourselves and our personal journey against sin and death. And the global journey we need to remember if it's the truth, it will come out and it will prevail. So we better do our best to stay with the truth.

I love the image of a plumber line of truth that comes from Old Testament prophets to stay with the truth. I, however, I, we can, I'm a sinner, but I do my best to return to that plumber line of truth.

“And that's what we need to do is individuals and as nations, we need to constantly be willing to challenge ourselves. Am I in whatever way, avoiding or trying to obfuscate the truth?”

And to the degree that I'm doing that I'm sinning, I repent, I ask forgiveness and I get back to the truth. What kind of response did you get to the statement that you wrote about Carrie? I have to say over one, I mean, I've been on X even when it was back when it was Twitter. And I've had some things that I've said that have gotten significant response.

And sometimes those numbers don't all necessarily mean that people are in agreement, but the vast majority of people have said, thank you for being a bishop, a successor of the apostles that was willing to speak to this. And you know, Tucker over and over again, and I can imagine, I mean, you're in a large, you have a big voice in today's world, and I know you know that, and you know you do your best to take that responsibility, which we have to.

I'm the first to be surprised to have a million acknowledgements of what I've said for the most part, very positive.

“So the response has been tremendous, and the words I believe, the words that I've posted, I believe they came from prayer, they came from real consideration of the truth that I believe in.”

But it wasn't my words that people are really responding to. The truth, people are hungry, they are starving. There is a worldwide famine for the truth, thankfully it's there, we can find it, but we have to fight for it sometimes. So I saw in the responses, people are grateful when a voice and no, when carry and I spoke, you know, God has blessed me and tremendous ways and really Tucker, I mean we've never met, but I see you and our story is very similar.

Trying to cancel you on and back in the culture when people speaking truth, we're getting canceled. And what does happen? Your voice has grown, and I think it should.

“Thankfully, I don't know, you're not the perfect man, but you are a man seeking truth. That's how I understand Tucker calls and because of that, they tried to, they fired you and they tried to eliminate your voice and that voice is only grown.”

The same thing for me, I'm a bishop removed from his diocese and my voice has grown. I mean, I still am in the kids for me, stacksets, but my voice of doing my best to be faithful to the truth and to be willing, and that's, I think, where both of us can stand together.

We've been willing to speak the truth when it wasn't popular when it was sometimes threatening to be further consequences if we stay with that voice of speaking the truth.

But I need both of us in different ways. I can't speak for you, but I can speak for myself. I have to, I have to do what I'm done. I can't knuckle under and say, okay, just just quit speaking the truth. I was told to quit it, stop it, quit speaking the truth. You've already told as well, and I'm sure behind the scenes, you could share lots of stories and people say, oh, Tucker, don't, you know, calm down, don't do this, you can back off, but we can't. When it's the truth and you know what deep in your heart.

That is what Christ was able to do, and a beautifully peaceful way in doing everything the world to throw it in. And, you know, in many ways, I haven't had anything thrown at me, but I've been willing to speak the truth when it wasn't popular.

“And when it basically got me kicked out of the club, but I'm still a bishop, I'm still a successor of the apostles. And so it's essential that I continue to speak.”

Not my truth. I mean, you know, that's where some, it gets crazy. People speak of, oh, well, that's your truth. And that's my truth. There's truth, and we all have the obligation to seek it. To be willing, and I've said this many times, and I say it again. Anytime I speak something that I'm claiming to be the truth, if people can show me that this is not the truth, I want to hear that. I don't want to ever be in a position where people are saying, oh, well, he's got a big boy, so I won't tell him he's wrong on that.

I want to hear if I'm wrong. But, and I can't, for sure, I'm a, you know, man, we can simple and easily confused and easily diverted from the truth, but I keep going back to trying to do my best to grow climate. That's what we're all called to do. And I'd say, carry right there with us as a woman, a mother and a wife and a woman with a voice.

You said you're an ex, you're clearly paying attention to what's happening around the world. It's very easy to become discouraged.

Jesus is under fire. The, the church broadly is under fire. Truth is, obviously a target, maybe the main target.

“So it's discouraging. Do you see God moving as a counterbalance to that? Do you see God moving more as evil becomes more obvious?”

I don't think I've ever asked in that question because I think absolutely, I see goodness and beauty and truth, changing hearts and moving people in all kinds of voice. That's been one of my blessings. I'm basically, I'm an attenorant Bishop now and travels all over the place and speaks in different settings and meets people across this nation. Around the world, and I have seen that goodness and those hearts syncing the truth. And of course, I believe that God is, it's still his work. It's still his church and he isn't absent from any of this.

“We will allows us to destroy ourselves if we make that foolish choice, but God is a little ways offering the opportunity to each of us individually.”

And each of us in whatever group, whatever definition of a group of humanity for us, we're all brothers and sisters, we're all the children of God, but I believe absolutely answering your question that God is working in hearts. God is working through all of this. Look at all the evil that's been exposed. We've had it, we're horrified, but it's like a wound that needs to be cleansed. A wound that needs to be opened up and the future fried flash needs to be cleansed. We're in the time of cleansing, a purification, God is allowing the truth that it's been hidden for so long so much corruption. It just, it does get overwhelming.

And I've put out messages to encourage people don't despair. It's so easy to despair. And we see it. I know both of us see it.

Too often, especially young people lives ending sometimes intentionally because they're just despair of this dark world, but we can never despair.

We should be people of hope and acknowledge the evil that's there, but believe that God is with us. Jesus Christ prevails as truth prevails. And I guess that's because I know many of the people that probably listen to you are not people of faith.

“But again, I would go back to simply truth prevails. When is the truth? And we know, I believe that Jesus Christ is truth incarnate, truth walked this Earth and we believe in the Catholic faith.”

Remains here through the sacrifice, through the life of baptized people and goodness living in the world, but truth prevails. And when we are willing to challenge ourselves to always go back to the truth, that will lead us to know where but to God.

And so God is working through all of this. And there's so much goodness out there. The things that have been hidden literally for centuries that are coming to light.

And what comes to mind for me is an apparition of our lady called our lady of good success that is in Ecuador, Ecuador, Ecuador, it happened shortly after our lady of God looping in our lady of God looping appeared in 1531 there in Peacock, outside Mexico City. The image of our lady of God looping still is revered there by Catholics and others there of that miraculous appearance. This apparition happened in the 1570s, hopefully after our lady of God looping. And what's interesting is the apparition, it's to a nut, our lady, it speaks to a nut and this has been approved as private revelation, but it is accepted as authentic by the church.

I mean, that's what it comes down to. We believe the church is will prevail. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic church. That is our faith. We believe what Christ says in the gospel and we believe it applies to this church, but that doesn't mean that we human beings and the church has gone through every kind of storm that humanity can come up with.

“But we believe the church will not be destroyed so we can't despair. But what's interesting to me is that this apparition, it's a sign of the goodness, a sign of the hope, a sign of God still with us.”

The things that as a bishop is as a lifelong Catholic, one of the great realities that I think is always helpful to me is to remember God is timeless. That's hard for us to grasp, but can't really grasp it. How can God be outside time? But he is. God is eternal. And so the things unfolding, we've said, well, this was 400 years ago and now it's happening now and how's this work? For God, there is no time. It's simply truth, goodness, and beauty, always flowing from the heart of the Trinity. God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

“So keeping that perspective always reminds us, reminds me, to be careful about presuming things about history, because God's outside all of that.”

My history is a reality of the creation that God is given us, which is precious and is good as God says in Genesis. He saw that it was good, but the evil and the bad can come when we were created in God's image, a likeness begin to ignore truth. That is constantly what it comes down to. When I send, I'm ignoring truth. I mean, we may not say, oh, I'm going to go ignore some truth today, but if we trace it back logically, what I'm doing when I send in Significant or just small ways, sometimes it's literally telling a lot, ignoring the truth, pretending that this is the way things are, or this is what I've done.

But when we ignore truth, on the personal level, on the natural level, in the midst of history, when we ignore truth, we are on a destructive path.

We're always challenged to go back to the truth and in this conversation once again, I repeat, the destruction, the one and destruction of innocence of civilians is never morally justified.

That's the anchor of truth, that's the pillar of truth that we have to keep returning to when we get caught up in the confusing and chaotic realities that we're all facing.

We have to go back to the truth and humbly acknowledge Lord, I'm wondering, in Significant or maybe just in basic ways, but the more we allow ourselves to put blindfolds on and ignore the truth.

“I think that's a lot of what's happening right now, it's like, you know, the political entity that is called Israel is getting a free pass for facing the truth, or whatever reasons for political agendas or some kind of co-opted religious idea.”

But when we ignore the truth that atrocities have been committed against civilians, against innocence, then when we won't speak of that like Gaza, then we're on a dark path, and it becomes something it sort of like the club of complicity where we say, well, we'll all ignore that from thought way and we move forward and too much of that happens in today's world.

You wonder why, I mean, there are, you know, a lot is written about this, there's a lot of speculation about it.

Why would people intentionally lie in the United States about what everyone can see, but the atrocities you just mentioned, why would our political leaders do that, why would many so many of our religious leaders do the same. And there are these theories where they're being paid off for those are not adequate explanations from my perspective. It does feel like, and there are instances of this, Paul eludes to this in Galatians,

Do you think that that phenomenon exists?

Now, absolutely, absolutely evil is real. The Catholic Church sees evil personified in Satan and his demons. Christ has, I mean, Satan has no power, realen, but we individual human beings and any group of human beings, when we give him to ignoring the truth, we really are giving him to the power of evil.

“And like you're alluding to Tucker, I mean, that's why thankfully God clearly tells us through his son and in other passages, even in the Old Testament, we are not to judge each other.”

We are not the judges. We are to make judgments about what is true, but we're not the judge of the individual person. And I think that that's where we have to always remember, because, you know, the atrocities that happen, and that doesn't mean what we just said, well, you know, out of respect for this person, I need to allow this to happen or allow myself to be attacked. That is not what we're talking about, but we do have to always acknowledge when it comes down to judging the person. We should simply not do it and acknowledge that maybe there is evil, and I truly believe that the delusion of evil has many by the grace and the world today. We all have the obligation to set ourselves free from that, to see the light and to make the choice to turn from it.

“But I know that can become very difficult, seemingly impossible. And I think that really, as we talk about all of this Tucker, we, I believe it, again, it comes down to basic human choices.”

The, the world leader that is deciding this is justified, because I have decided this, this and this, it comes down to, and again, I think of us as individual centers.

What we send, we've simply decided, I know better, in this, you know, we explain it away, we make rationalizations, but what at the heart of it is, yes, this is what the world says is true, but I know better, I've figured it out, I know better. And I think that that's where, you know, the atrocities in Gaza, that they are, they are actively working to hide those into, to squelch any voice that there's to speak up about innocence, lives being destroyed, because it threatens their, I know better attitude.

It threatens that truth that they're trying to create, we can all try to create a wrong truth, but it doesn't exist really, and that is what we have to always be humble enough to acknowledge.

And we have to pray that world leaders will be people whose hearts are open because that got the power to do drastically devastatingly destructive things like, we've witnessed in Gaza, what we're witnessing in Lebanon. Very little is spoken about some of these things because the powers that be don't want that truth spoken, because it threatens their false scenario.

“So it really is as basic as that, but I think there are forces, morally and supernatural, of evil that, I mean, just like when, you know, when evil tries to cancel a voice of truth and our culture.”

Certainly, in the supernatural realm, Satan and his minions are trying to do the same thing. I mean, the same Michael prayer that we offer as Catholics is rooted in acknowledging that basic reality. And not saying a demon around every corner, but acknowledging that evil is real, evil has its power when we give it power. So if we have to prayerfully turn to the truth, I urge everyone to do that. And if you want a believer to at least, I mean, hopefully, to somewhat being sane is to embrace the truth.

My final question is about persecution, which you've alluded to, and you've said, oh, Jesus was murdered for telling the truth.

That was the main threat he posed, the fact that he was the embodiment of truth, and that that principle stands and that people who, it's not the liars who are punishes people, it's illiterate. So if we accept that we're clearly in a new kind of world where

“trends are accelerating, you would have to think that persecution will intensify specifically of Christians, and I think it is, I think it's what we're watching.”

Do you believe that? And if you do, how should Christians respond to persecution?

Well, talk where I do believe that, I mean, it's, it's very clear, I believe, that faith, any, really, any stands for truth, the real truth is being persecuted because the powers of chaos, the powers of that false message are growing. And gaining influence, what is our response as Christians? Well, I guess it sounds pretty simplistic, but we stay with the truth, we don't compromise.

We don't become violent in the face of violence, we don't embrace hatred, and I think that, you know, it probably is one of the most powerful things we can do.

Is seek to truly love our neighbor along the way. And certainly, I mean, Christ tells us, love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself, the great commitment. But I think that we need to put them into practice by not giving in to the hate, no matter how much we are persecuted, no matter how much hatred is thrown on us.

“We have great examples in our Catholic faith in the saints of the ages, so many of the saints and Christ Himself says, if they hate you, remember they hated me first. What is persecution about?”

We're persecuted when they hate what we're doing, they hate who we are, they hate what we're saying. And so we're in good company with Christ Himself. How did Christ respond? He didn't waver from the truth, but he didn't violently fight back either. That is, I think the basic reaction we should have, we should trust in the power of the truth. Yes, we can be eliminated, we can be assassinated in this for a minute happens, but the truth continues to prevail. And if, as Christ died in service to the truth, he was the truth and he died from the truth, if it comes to that, we shouldn't seek that, our lives are valuable.

“But if it comes to that, then we believe in the truth should, you know, be the martyrs, be willing, if it, if that's what it takes to stand for the truth that I sacrifice my life and this world.”

And it begins to remind us that life is not eliminated to this world. We believe in everlasting life, the salvation of souls is what the church, the Catholic church exist for, and may not always look like that through history and in our tongue, because too many voices saying to be too worried about this world, but ultimately, to be alive is to have eternal life with God. So sacrificing this earthly life, if it comes to that, and we should, I've always loved the example of St. Thomas Moore, he was a great lawyer, he was a great mind, and he did everything he could to keep from losing his life in this world, but ultimately he knew that, if he had to sacrifice his life in this world, he could look to eternal life with God and heaven.

But when that ends, and if we lose that life, because we've stood for the truth, then we're in good company.

“So the Christian's response to persecution should ultimately, to be willing, and to be strengthened, and to strengthen each other, to stand with the truth, come what may.”

Amen. This is Strickland. Thank you very much for taking this time. That was great.

Thank you, Taker. God bless you. God bless you.