Tucker on Trump’s Desecration of Easter and a Warning to Christians Everywhere

Millions of American Christians voted for Donald Trump when he ran for president in the last election,

“and millions more Christians around the world rooted for him to win, many still do root for Donald Trump.”

Now, why is that? Because of his personal piety, well, of course not. Trump to his credit has never

claimed to be personally pious, especially religious in any sense. They voted for him, and they still support him because he seemed like a protector. He seemed like someone who might save them from the growing and highly aggressive agnosticism, if not atheism of say the technology class or the bureaucratic class. Godless nations, nations of other religions that oppose us, Donald Trump seemed like someone who protect Christians from that, who was committed to the free exercise of

religion in this country, and who was also committed to ending abortion, whether or not he himself opposed abortion or that he was pro-life in any meaningful sense didn't seem to matter. He would appoint justices that opposed abortion that thought Rovey Wade was unconstitutional. He did that,

“and that he would basically carry the flag for their issues, and that he was sympathetic to them.”

And they support him on that basis. Can they still support him? That's the question. And that's a question Christian should have begun to ask themselves on January 4th of this year. And that was the day that the president announced the capture, the arrest of the president of Venezuela, Nicholas Maduro, who was no question an anti-American leader in a socialist, not someone most Americans liked or really had caused to like.

So the problem is not necessarily that Trump was against an anti-American leader. In fact,

that was a benefit in the eyes of most of his voters. The problem was why we did it, and why the president told us he did it, and that was for the oil. So in the days before that operation in early January, the president tweeted out sent out on his truth social account and also said in public, we're doing this because we want the oil, because that oil belongs to the United States. He never explained how exactly the United States would own the natural

resources of a foreign country. Apparently, American oil companies helped develop the oil fields in Venezuela, therefore we own the oil. That was the idea, and they stole it from us.

But there was no real effort to explain how that works, how that makes any sense at all.

“Instead, you had the president of the United States say, we need the oil, oil's really important,”

true and true. Therefore, we're going to take it. And therefore, apparently, we did in the days after that operation, the successful removal of the president of the country, and the installation of his vice president, Delcy Rodriguez, as president. Our president, Donald Trump, held a widely publicized on-camera meeting with the heads of American oil companies and talked through how we're going to split up the national resources of Venezuela. And why this is great

for America? So why should Christians have paused it exactly that moment and ask, can I still support this? Is this what I voted for? Is this what I want? Is this acceptable? And the reason is really simple, because Trump, at that moment, revealed that the motive was taking something that we wanted. And that's not acceptable for Christians. In fact, that's not acceptable for Americans or any civilized people, because taking other people's stuff by force cannot be allowed. In fact,

preventing that is the basis of our legal code. If there's one thing that every person knows that is in a civilized country, you can't steal without penalty. It's not allowed. That doesn't belong to you. You can't shop lift. You can't rob banks. You can't imbezzle. You can't invade countries to steal their stuff, because they're all varieties of the same theme, which is theft. And theft is wrong. It's wrong under the American legal code, but it's also wrong under the Christian

legal code. theft is wrong spelled out really clearly. It's also intuitive. And here was the president saying we're just stealing this because we can. Well, as a practical matter, that's quite a thing to say out loud. Given that we know from history that the things you do will be done unto you. Once you set a standard, you will have to live by that standard. Right a law, you'll be judged by that law. So, if the new law is, I can take it because I want it.

And I have more power than you. At some point, we can rest assured the tables will be turned. And the things that we want and cherish and have earned and that we own will be taken from us by force at the moment when some other power has more force than we do. It's really simple. Sometimes

law because it is a brutal and unforgiving law. So, they create higher laws, or they appeal

“to the highest law of all, which is God's law, which prohibits that. So, this was a profound moment”

in American history, probably the history of the modern world, where most powerful nation said

if we want it, we'll take it. No one's ever said that before. Now, they've done it under the guise of ideology. They've made up stories to hide the fact they're doing it, but to say you're doing it, implicates everybody else in the crime. You can't say you didn't know. Your president just told you on television, we took out their president because we want as well. And at that point, you're an accessory to the crime, whether you want to be or not. And as at that point,

that a lot of people should have spoken up and said, "I'm out." Not that I hate Trump, or don't like his entire program. Lots of things about it. I love it. I'm grateful. I may be vote form again,

but I can't support theft because it's immoral. But they didn't, maybe some did, but certainly

the leaders of the American Christian churches by and large said absolutely nothing. And maybe because they said nothing, this accelerated. These are the same people sort of didn't notice somehow that on an inauguration day the president did not take his oath of office with his hand on the Bible. His wife stood next to him holding it. I was about 15 feet away and saw it, but he did not put his hand on the Bible. And that should have been maybe a clue that we need to pause and think about what is

this. Why wouldn't you put your hand on the Bible? If you don't believe in the Bible, you think it's just a book. There's no cost to you to put in your hand, not just kind of following

“the protocol, going along with the tradition, all presidents do it. Why aren't you doing it?”

And you're not doing it intentionally. You're choosing not to put your hand on the Bible when you take that oath. That's just not that you don't believe it's real because if you didn't believe was real, why would you care? You'd put on the costume and take it off, doesn't matter. That's just you know it is real and you're rejecting it intentionally. You know what you're doing and you're doing it anyway. But nobody asks questions about that either. I seem kind of inappropriate given the

celebration that in progress to ask, why wouldn't you put your hand on the Bible and you take the oath of office to lead our nation? But pretty much nobody did. I didn't. I'll admit that. I saw it and didn't say one word bothered me ever since. But right around January 4th, they became clear that maybe he didn't put his hand on the Bible because he affirmatively rejects what's inside that book and what's inside that book are limits on human behavior. Because if there's one theme

that spans all 66 books in the Christian Bible, it's that you are not God and you cannot assume his powers. Because you don't have them. You may convince yourself you have them. You may want

them. You may have been promised them. But in the end they're not yours and you'll never have them.

And you can only destroy yourself and the people around you by pretending that you do. That is the consistent message that spans from Genesis to Revelation. When people ignore that law are punished, just like people ignore gravity or freezing temperatures are punished because these are laws that we're not created by people. They supersede people. But in January 4th, when the President of the United States told us he was stealing that our country was stealing something that

didn't belong to us, people should have piped up and said something, but they didn't. And that got us all the way to yesterday, which was Easter Sunday. Easter Sunday is not just a holy day on the Christian calendar. It is the center of the Christian calendar. It's the holiest day in Christian

“life. Because the day that Christians remember the whole point of their religion, which is not”

that Jesus was killed, but that he rose from the dead, that he beat death, unique in history. And this is the day. The Christians celebrate his resurrection. And in this country that celebrations been watered down effectively to candy and Easter bunnies, but globally and certainly historically, Easter is the focus it's preceded by a holy week and lent 40 days of self-denial and prayer, all leading up to yesterday. Easter morning. And for faithful Christians, it is still the biggest

day of the year. And it's a day of joy. The thing every person fears most is death. We're born ferrying it because we're born knowing it's coming. And Christianity, unique among religions promises victory over it. And Jesus' resurrection is proof that God can beat death because only God creates life.

yesterday was shattered. That's not an overstatement. It was shattered for many observing Christians. By statement that the President of the United States put out at 803 AM Eastern time on Easter morning that said this, and we're going to read it in its entirety, not in outrage or self-righteousness.

“But honestly, in horror, quote, Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day all wrapped up in one”

in Iran. There will be nothing like it through exclamation points. Open the fucking straight you crazy bastards or you'll be living in hell. Just watch all caps. Praise be to Allah, President Donald J. Trump. Now, a lot of people reading that. Imagine, of course, this can't be real to the President of the United States really just write that. And it is real. It is maybe the most real thing this President has ever done. And also the most revealing.

On every level, it is vile on every level. It begins with a promise to use the US military our military to destroy civilian infrastructure in another country, which is to say to commit a war crime, a moral crime against the people of the country, who's welfareed by the way was one of

the reasons we supposedly went into this war in the first place. They're being killed by their

government. We have to rescue them. And now, here's our precedent, not even a month and a half into the conflict, which we are not winning by the way, because the streets where moves are not open. There's one way to keep track. That's the measurement. Saying that we're going to use our military to kill the civilians of this country who didn't choose. Or they get nothing to do with it. They're like civilians everywhere. Blow up their bridges. Bridges on military basis? No, no, no, just bridges.

Bridges that people cross every day to go to school and work into worship and yes, church,

because they're over a million Christians in Iran. This is their Easter, too, and power plants.

Not the power plants attached to missile factories. Okay, but civilian power plants in a country of almost 100 million people. What happens when a modern country and a country that's a nuclear program as a modern country, sorry, run as a modern country. What happens when it loses power? Well, people die. Baby's connected to incubators die. People in hospitals die. And those are the first level of facts. And then people begin to starve. And then you have refugee crises. People leave

the cities looking for food and yes, they move into other countries. In the region in Europe in the United States, you cause chaos and death, mass suffering and death when you do that. And we have done that. We have intentionally bombed civilian infrastructure in Iran. It's totally unacceptable. Not only the phony laws of some international body, but under moral law, God's law, killing non-combatants, people who did nothing wrong, who didn't choose this war.

It was just people created by God. That is immoral. That will never be moral. That can never be

justified. That is always wrong. It can be expedient. We need to do this. It doesn't mean that's

“right. It's the most wrong thing. And we should always remember that what we do will be done to us”

live by the destruction of civilian infrastructure, live by the killing of children, the bombing of elementary schools and colleges. And you will die and your children will die by those same things. This is the fact that's never not been true. We don't want it to be true. It's the last thing we want to be true. But it is nonetheless true. And everyone knows that on an animal level, you can feel that that's true. Ooh, shouldn't do that. You'll be punished for it. In this life or the

next or maybe both. For the president to say that, and now bother to tell us, oh, is an accident we did this? Well, what it makes you reassess the bombing of the girl school attached to the IRGC naval base, where the children of Iranian military officers were incinerated in a bombing, not one but two, a double tap. Every person has assumed that was a mistake. No American could ever believe

“the US government would do that on purpose. I still don't believe it. But after this, you have to”

kind of wonder how did that happen? Was it bad targeting coordinates given to us we hope by Israel another country? Maybe it wasn't? Who knows at this point? For the president to call for that,

justified it. You couldn't justify it. And it can't be done in our name. And the point, of course,

is to get the Iranians to open the straight of our moves. Well, no sane person thinks that's going

“to work. At which point you have to ask, why would we do it anyway? Well, there are a bunch of”

possible reasons, but the darkest of all is for the sake of doing it, for the sake of killing, for the sake of exercising the most obvious form of power which is extinguishing life. That's why we're doing it. The thrill is in the killing. The power is in the killing. The exertion of force is the point. You don't want to think that. But after a message like this, what could possibly be the reason? There's nobody who thinks that if we do this and we pray

we don't for our sake as well as the sake of non-combatant innocent Iranians, nobody thinks this is going to work. But then the tweet continues, pardon me, the ironically named Truth continues. There will be nothing like it, open the FN straight. How dare you speak that way on Easter morning to the country? Who do you think you are? You're tweeting out the F-word on Easter morning? You'll be living in hell, as if hell is a place, hell is a condition. And this is an example of

that condition. Just watch, praise be to Allah. So obviously you're mocking the religion of Iran. Okay, if you seek a religious war, that's a good idea. But by the way, no decent person mocks other people's religions. You may have a problem with the theology, presumably you do. If it's not your religion and you could explain what that is. But to mock other people's faith

is to mock the idea of faith itself. And we should never mock that because at its core is the

acknowledgement that we are not in charge of the universe. We did not build it. We won't be here at the end of it. We can destroy life. We cannot create it because we are not God. The message of all faith at the biggest picture level is the message in our Bible, which is you are not God. And only if you think you are, do you talk this way? But it's not just mockery of Islam. And no presence should mock Islam. That's not your job. This is not a theocracy. We don't

go to war with other theocracies to find out which theocracy is more effective. We are not a

theocracy. And God willing we never will be because theocracy corrupts the religion. No,

this is a mockery not just of Islam. It's a mockery of Christianity to send out a tweet with the effort on Easter morning promising the murder of civilians and then saying praise be to Allah without explaining any of it. You are mocking me and every other Christian because we're Christians. Oh, I get it. We can't support that. Under no circumstances, can we support that? Does

“mean you have to hate Trump or take the opposite position on every issue from Trump? You shouldn't.”

A lot of positions are the right positions. But you cannot support that. That is evil. That is an intentional desecration of beauty and truth, which is the definition of evil. And you have to ask where does evil lead? If the core point of evil is to destroy which it is, God creates Satan destroys its dualism. When you see something of beauty being created, when you hear the truth being spoken, you are witnessing a manifestation of God's power. And when you see

the opposite, you're witnessing the opposite. So where does this lead? Well, on a practical level, Andy's spiritual level, they converge in the same place, which is the use of weapons of mass destruction. So in a practical level, on a strategic level, if you're at the Pentagon gaming this out, how does this work? The President, I see it keeps laying down markers. You can't go past next

“Tuesday at 2 p.m. Or whatever, you must open the straight. Rells, you'll be living in hell.”

Is it for not there already? In a certain point, what we're doing is revealing we've exhausted conventional power. If there's some tricky way to open the straight of hormones by air, probably what it does by now, because we are in a path to plunge the world into global depression and famine. And that's not hair on fire, panic andism. That's math.

What happens to Africa? A billion and a half subsaharan Africans without enough fertilizer? Well,

“a lot of them be living in the United States. That's just going to happen. It's right across”

the Atlantic Ocean. Check a map. So getting the straight open is the essence of the mission. It is these strategic goal, by the way, to be bitter. It was open on February 27th and had been for, you know, since they were pirates from the straight for modern history to been open, now it's closed because of this war. Okay, so there's that. But leave that aside. Okay, that was then. How do we get it open? Conventional air strikes will not open the straight for very obvious

reasons. You can close it with mines. So if you reach the end of your conventional power, where does that leave you? Oh, with non-conventional power. What's that a euphemism for? Nuclear weapons. And the effects of that hardly need to be explained. Well, they can't be fully known because

modern nuclear weapons have never been used. But you can just draw obvious conclusions like life

in Iran not possible. So you wipe out a country of 92 million people. What about directly across the Persian Gulf? What about the seven other countries? All of them allies of the United States, the biggest oil precinct countries in the world. Could you live there? What about the 100 odd million people live in those countries? Maybe not possible for them either. Would a nuclear strike be followed by peace? Probably not. The U.S. isn't the only country in the world with nuclear

“weapons. You could have a global nuclear war. That's why we haven't used nuclear weapons in”

80 years. No one has. Because you don't know where it goes from there. This isn't saying. Okay, this is insane. It's hard to believe you even need to say this out loud. Oh, but you do. Because all things being equal, that's where we're heading. How do we know that? Well, there are a million signs. But the most obvious is the dumbest neocons in Trump's orbit are saying it out loud. Now, in some cases, you don't even want to mention their names because

these are not decision makers. These people are very much like Jeffrey Epstein. They're not actually the evil mastermind. Jeffrey Epstein's kind of an idiot. He's an employee. Obviously, he's a communications hub. He's to get the message out to your people. And it's the same with America's most prominent neocons. They're not making policy. They don't understand anything. They don't have huge audiences. They have no organic power. They're messengers.

And flak takers. They're the ones who get the abuse for the policies of others. Put some lunatic on TV. Everyone can hate him. But is he coming up with the plan? Now, of course, not. He's got a weekend show in Fox. But it's useful to watch what he says. In fact, the president of the United States himself has said this, watch Mark Levin on Saturday night.

“You think Trump has done? I think he's doing this to juice Mark Levin's ratings? No.”

It's not possible to increase the ratings of someone nobody wants to watch. The point is to send a message that's not a conspiracy theory. It's true. Levin show written probably not by Levin, which has almost no viewers, has been a place where the future is revealed. And it's brought us out one. It's placed to test ideas. It's a place to announce obliquely what's going to happen.

And his most recent show should get you sitting bolt upright in your chair. And yes, this rend, this weekend, Easter weekend is if the defiling of beauty couldn't be more obvious. Easter, could you pick another weekend to give the finger to Christianity other than Easter weekend? Apparently not. In fact, of course, you couldn't. That's the point. Do it on Easter. Anyone who will accept

this will accept any humiliation. In any case, here's what Mark Levin said on his Easter weekend show

about what we ought to do next in Iran. Watch. And the casualty numbers as horrible as any casualty is, need some context. Let's look at World War II. The Battle of the Bulge, 80,000 to 90,000 plus casually, deaths and injuries and so forth nearly 10% of all the casualties in World War II happened at the Battle of the Bulge near the end of the war. The Battle of Okanawa, 50,000 plus casualties over 12,000 nearly 13,000 killed on that island, which is what convinced

Truman that we would lose a million men if we didn't drop the atomic bombs that we did.

Americans. Every bit is important in World War II. This is a crucially important military operation war, call it what you want peace mission. And we ought to be celebrating the success of our military unifying around our military and our commander-in-chief and urging them to complete the task. So our country is safe from nuclear weapons by insane suicidal primitives from the 7th century. Did you catch that? Did you make it through the whole clip? It's not easy, it's not easy, but embedded

“in there. And that's why we prefer a transcript of the actual audio.”

Embedded in there is something you need to know. It's an argument that is being test driven, and since no one to run all just push back against it may be in full operation. Now, it's an argument for nuclear weapons against Iran. Here's to restate in case you couldn't

make it through the accent. Here's what he said. Nearly 10% of all casualties in the second

world war happened at the Battle of Bulge, which, of course, at the end of the war. The battle will now have 50,000 casualties. Nearly 13,000 killed in that island, which is what convinced Truman, Harry Truman, that then president, 1945, we'd lose a million men if we didn't drop the atomic bombs that we did. Did you hear that? That's Mark Levin's counsel to our sitting president, Donald Trump right now. You are looking at a choice between the catastrophic loss of your troops

“in a ground war or the use of nuclear weapons, which in a sense, if you think about it,”

just think about it for a second is actually an act of peace. It's an act of peace. The most humane thing you could do is to end this now with nuclear weapons. That's the case Mark Levin is making to the president who just last week recommended that all Americans watch Mark Levin's show. Okay. This is not like crazy dot-connecting here. This is one to one. This is really obvious where we're moving. And again, we're moving toward the use of weapons of

indiscriminate mass destruction, possibly nuclear weapons. But non-conventional weapons. Not bombs dropped from the air, missiles launched from launchers, but the use of weapons that have

never been used in war ever. And the argument is the same argument that you heard in 1945

or didn't hear, by the way, if you're an American civilian, no one ever cuts you in on this. They're Kevin from Mark Levin saying it out loud. So the rest of us could at least follow along and know what we're in for and implicated in. But the argument that it's actually much more humane to kill tens hundreds of thousands millions of civilians than it is to fight it out with the Marine Corps on the rocky shores of mainland Iran. That's the argument. But it's not just the

argument that one guy in cable news is making. It is the logic of escalation in this war because in some sense, Mark Levin is right. We are not going to open the streets with the United States

Marine Corps. The eight-second air borner. The Tier one operators that everyone in cable knows

news seems to know so much about that. Tier one operator, Tier one. Guys, like some of the best guys actually in America could be killed in this. That's a better way to put it. Some are real way to put it. They are not going to open the street. And so unless somebody puts the brakes on right away, we're going to wind up in a place that we can't even imagine. Not just to run us and the rest of the world. And so that means because this is obvious to anyone who's paying any attention

that if you work in the White House, we're in the U.S. military. Now is time to say no, absolutely not. And say directly to the President, no. Okay, so thinking about using some weapon and mass destruction is the population of Iran in whose name we liberated Iran. We killed their

“religious leader for their benefit. Do you remember that? This was last month?”

Those people who are in direct contact with the President need to say no. All resigned. I'll do whatever I can do legally to stop this because this is insane. And if given you what I'm not carrying it out, figure out the codes on the football yourself. Because everything hangs in the balance right now. This is not hysteria. This is a hundred percent real. And yet the people in this country by an artist's sleepwalking on now, the future will be

pretty much like today. Maybe a little different. That's not the lesson of history. Things change fast and forever. There are pivot points where nothing is the same. Sometimes it's better, but mostly it's not. And this is one of those cases where it might not be at all better. But there's something else to think about. Something may be even more important than whether

the way we worship God, whether we acknowledge God or not, that's more important ultimately than

“anything else. And you have to think through like, could there be a spiritual component to”

what we're watching? Is it just a conventional escalation ladder in a badly thought out war with ill-defined goals? And we just wound up in this really tough place where we face either humiliation on the one side or a nuclear launch on the other? That's yeah, that's part of what it is. But it could be something bigger than that. Is it possible that what you're watching is a very stealthy yet incredibly effective attack on what from a Christian perspective is the true

faith belief in Jesus? Is that what really is under attack here? Is that's what, maybe it's what's been under attack for a long time? Maybe our whole lifetime? Maybe almost everything we see

is an attack on that faith. The one faith that is always attacked, always in everywhere for

“2000 years is one, many faiths have been attacked, many religious people have different religions have”

been killed with the past 2000 years. But there's been only one sustained effort to exterminate a faith. And that's the Christian faith. Could that be part of it? And is it possible that the president sees this not just in geostrategic terms and military terms and economic terms got open in the straight? Okay. Is it possible the president sees this in bigger terms? Seas this as the fulfillment of something or the elevation to some higher office beyond

president of the United States? That's entirely possible. And that's not an attack, but it's also not a guess because at every turn since the inauguration last January, there have been religious leaders on the scene telling us, telling us, "Oh loud, most of us ignored it," because we're just so secular, just sort of ignore it, got some sleazy southern Baptist preachers says whatever for money. Okay, got it. We've ignored that this could actually be real. There's something going on here.

“And we shouldn't ignore that. We should always remember that just because we are a”

secular nation, have been overwhelmingly secular, maybe not coincidentally, since we dropped those out of Bob's 80 years ago, doesn't mean that we live in a world wherever one else's secular, and it definitely doesn't mean that the spiritual realm has been eliminated, that is not real, that the only things that matter to the things that we can see in here and feel entased in measure, talk about fake, talk about a silly religion. That's the silly religion in real life in the

life that every person lives no matter what your religion or lack of it, there is a daily recurring experience of the transcendent things you cannot explain or see or touch or feel or taste or measure,

that is every bit is really in fact maybe determinative, maybe the most important things in your

life are the things you don't fully understand. All of us know that. And so when people start making reference to mystical religious principles, so we don't understand, it doesn't mean that it's fake, they may be getting it wrong, but it doesn't mean there's not something real at the center of this. Of course there is. An only a civilization as bereft of spiritual languages ours wouldn't pick up at that immediately. What do you mean praise be to Allah? What does that mean? Why are you

standing this out on Easter morning? I mean, obviously it's designed to offend and degrade and defile, got it, but is there something else going on here? One of the keys to this is the behavior of a woman called Paul White. In a moment we're going to speak to a man who studies or went to a church yesterday, called Nathan Appfel, fasting conversation with him, which was just finished. Where he tries to understand who are these people encouraging the president of the United States to see himself as a

millennialist figure as part of the eschatology of like part of the end-time story, who these people who are encouraging the rebuilding the third temple in Jerusalem, whatever that is, like what is this? Is this Christianity? Is it something else? Then you just a lot about it. It's a fascinating conversation that I hope that you will watch. But at the center of this is the most unlikely person of all, ludicrous figure, someone who's so absurd on one level that it's possible

to take this person seriously, that would be Paul White. The president's spiritual advisor, and because she's so self-evidently not worth taking seriously, most people don't, and it's too no right out, who cares what she says? What does that have to do with the economy? Oil prices,

example. This is something that Paul White said about the president right before this recent escalation

“during Holy Week, after White House, a gathering to which many American Protestant leaders,”

big ones, Franklin Graham included were invited, and they gave a blessing to Donald Trump as he

accelerated this war against the civilian population of Iran. Here's what she said about Donald

Trump. Watch this. Jesus taught so many lessons through his death burial resurrection. He showed us great leadership, great transformation requires great sacrifice. And Mr. President, no one has paid the price, like you have paid the price. It almost costs you your life. You are betrayed and arrested and falsely accused. It's a familiar pattern that our Lord and Savior showed us, but it didn't end there for him, and it didn't end there for you. It's hard to believe that's real. That is so

violent, such a sacrilege, standing in front of American flags in the White House with some kind of beta evangelical leader nodding along as you liken the president of the United States to Jesus, the Christian Messiah, God in human form. How could you say something like that? How could the rest of us sit by and not protest when she said something like that? How could any Christian watch that and not feel revulsion? Well, because people didn't pay attention or they didn't think about it.

It's just the praise that Trump demands. Fine. Not the first vain president, not the first vain

leader. That's for certain. But to compare him or any president to Jesus has got to be a deal killer.

“That is the end. You cannot allow that in good faith if you're a Christian, you have to say no to that.”

Doesn't matter whether you voted for Trump, campaigned for Trump across many states, defended him for 10 years, still like him, doesn't matter. You cannot compare a president, a secular president of the United States or anybody, any human being to Jesus. Why? Well, because again, it is sacrilege, premature, but because it distorts who Jesus is,

it is a lie about Jesus. Did Jesus command the disciples to go out and kill people?

Where in the New Testament is that? Well, those people probably don't even know because they don't read it because their understanding of Christianity comes filtered through people like Paul White and Franklin Graham and many others of varying levels of good faith. They may be entirely good faith, but they don't read it themselves. Kind of weird. If you think about it, it's a great story. You don't have to believe in it to enjoy it, to learn from it to love it actually.

“And if you're a believer, you need to read it and it's hard to read it. By the way, it's on amazon.com.”

Try this new living translation, NLT. Just to probably the most modern, colloquial English translation of the Bible, easiest to read. It's great. It's $4.30 on amazon to live at your house, NLT. Just read it. Just read the four gospels. You don't have to believe it. What do you think of that? What's the picture that emerges? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, is four stories about Jesus from slightly different perspectives.

Is the man that you read about? The Messiah you read about? Recognizable? As you listen to these people talk about him, does he send his disciples out to kill? Well, let's all answer the question, having just read him. No, he sends them out to be killed. He says to them, go out, tell the truth. The world will hate you for it. Take no weapon. Take no food. Take no money. Take no talking points. I'm going to tell you what to say. Just tell the truth. God will speak through you.

Totally unprepared. Doesn't give them a map. Doesn't give them a plan of any kind and he gives them no defense. And he says point blank again and again, you could be killed for this. Probably will be. In fact, they all were. So far, you may know they were all killed. That's the Christian message. Now, you may think that's absurd. Many have. Nietzsche was revolted by it. Get it? But that is what Jesus said. He did not say bomb the bridges

in the hospitals and the power plants to what? Bring my kingdom? No, he said just the opposite.

You have to be willing to be killed. You have to lay down your life. And that is the message. You think God couldn't come and throw the Romans out of Jerusalem? Oh, yeah. Of course, he chose the opposite. He chose to submit to them. Why? Because in that submission is victory over death. That's the true victory. That's the whole story right there. And anyone who perverse that is doing a grave crime against the faith itself. And that actually matters.

You can argue about all kinds of points of doctrine and transubstantiation and really things you can argue about. And Christians have argued about them for 2,000 years. But you can't argue that Jesus sends his people, God's people, his disciples out to kill. He sends them to do the opposite thing to die. And they do. And the world is transformed because they did. That's the message. And anyone preaching the opposite gospel of any Christian

denomination is saying something vile and dangerous. And should be called out for saying it. Because the message is not of conquering its submission. Put your hand on the Bible when you take that oath. Because in doing that, you acknowledge I am submitting to a law greater than myself. My own desire, my own whims, my will is not the final word. There is a limit to what you can do.

“And that limit is set not by you or any other person but by God. That's what that means.”

Submit. There is time to fix this. There is time to prevent. Whatever is coming next. Whether it's the murder of civilians and children by air or whether it's something even worse than

that. There is time to fix it. All is not lost. But the first step and this is also the first step

toward faith is submission. There are things I want to do that I will intentionally not do. I will submit to a law higher than my own desire. That's the first step towards civilization. And it is the first and absolutely mandatory step toward inverting the true disaster that is coming. And we pray that the president will take that step and that those around him will take that step because everything hangs in the balance. And with that, here is our conversation with Nathan App though.

“So thank you for doing this. Yeah, thanks at home. I think you will unravel many mysteries.”

I'd never heard a Paul White. I ran into Paul White for the first time. I heard a name for the

first time. I ran into a person at the right outside the oval office last winter. Right after the inauguration and she introduced herself to me instead. I'm the head of the religious liberty commissioner. Something and I'm thinking, I'm so glad there is such a thing. Because we need it. We need religious liberty almost one of the anything. And I said, I felt moved to say, just like escape from my lips. Thank you. And I really hope that you will do something to protect the Christians

of them at least, particularly in the Lofon. There are a lot of great Christians there and they're being hurt and nobody seems to care. And I feel like we're coiled. I remember thinking, she doesn't

like this at all. That was my first to and only experience with Paul White. And so I've wondered ever

“since who is Paul White and how did she become the president's main spiritual advisor?”

You told me this morning that you went to church on Easter Sunday, which was yesterday at her church. And so before you give us the overview, can you just describe what that was like? It was an interesting experience. When you see Paul on stage next to Trump or you see any big evangelical leader, Kenneth Copeland, Franklin Graham, you'd expect their church to be massive. Yeah, thousands and thousands of people. Their pastors, they have a church or pastoring people.

They have a shepherd. Exactly. They're the shepherd. Yeah. And so we pull up and I expected a very big building. Where is it? It is in Apapca. I think I'm saying it right Florida. So just north of Orlando. Okay. And I've been to Joel Osteens Church. You know, thousands, tens of thousands of seats. I've been to Second Baptist, 93,000 members in that church. I know big church, right? It looked like a one of those metal sheds. You know, one of those big like 5,000 square foot.

It looked like an airplane hanger basically. And I was like, this is just awkward. It was the parking lot. Probably fit 50 cars. And so it was just an overflow in a dirt lot.

pot coffee for their entire congregation. And so I walked in. I counted about 400 chairs.

“And when I got there, which was the time the service started, there was seven people sitting”

on Easter Sunday. And so we walked in. They put us two rows from the stage. And ironically, Paula's daughter-in-law approached me. And I was there with my girlfriend. And she approached us and goes, who are you? And I'm wearing a floral shirt, yellow sunglasses, and an Alabama hat. Like, I tried to be awkward in these situations. And she comes straight up. And she goes, I'm Paula White's daughter-in-law. And I'm like, I'm Nathan. I don't, I don't hide who I am.

And she's like, would you take a photo in front of our Easter display? And I'm like, sure. And so I walk over. And Paula White's daughter-in-law is taking a photo of me.

And I'm like, okay, can we get it? And I wouldn't be surprised if it's on their Instagram this

morning because it was for like their Instagram. So we go and we sit down and it packs out to about 200 people on an Easter Sunday. One of the two biggest Christmas and Easter, the two biggest holidays for Christianity. 200 people show up to this thing. Mostly African Americans, I was one of six White people. And then you got this white woman on stage. And that was the setting. That's her shirt. Her shirt. Yeah. Well, that can be wrong. I got the lights and the the fog machine and the

Jim arm that flies over the crowd. It's a production studio is what I would call it, production stage. So the point is not to minister to the people in the church, take care of their problems,

“council them, bring them closer to Jesus. The point is to produce a TV show. That's what I would say.”

Say similar to Joel Osteen, he's a TV producer by trade. You know, Kenneth Copeland, same thing, when I went to Kenneth's church, it was very small. Sat maybe 400 people. And it was a massive studio with multiple Jim arms, multiple cameras, security, massive stage. I produced TV. Like they they produced TV. That's fascinating. So did she preach? No, her son preached. Yeah. So she got up and gave a little message in the morning, a little prayer. And there was a really weird dynamic between

her and her son. And I've got I've got their bylaws, which I think explained why. But her son gave and got up and get honestly a really sound message. Like I give a shout out to Brad like that dude knows the Bible. And it was very interesting to me because I saw him visibly wrestling with this idea of shepherding. And then the idea of the institution. And there was times where he would look at his mom and just throw daggers at her about corruption, power. It was it was a very interesting

dynamic. And she would. She would belittle him to it was it was during the service. Yeah. Yeah. On Easter Sunday. On Easter Sunday. And then she once he finished the service, the sermon, which hey, Brad, great sermon until the very end. Because then he's like, I don't want to do an alter call. But I'm a charismatic. So I have to do an alter call. And I'm like, well, you don't have to

do an alter call. What's an alter call? It's basically him saying, hey, if you're not a Christian

come down to the stage, you're going to say Jesus is my Savior. I'm a sinner and boom, you're a Christian. And that's a relatively new technique in Christianity. You know, 200 years ago, alter calls were not a thing. And so alter calls are just a kind of a new tool that churches use to read metrics. You know, because at the end of the day, how are we performing? Oh, here's how many salvation we've had and how many baptisms we've had. And so he's not for the alter call,

but you can tell he's wrestling with the institution that his mom gave him. And then after the alter call, she got up and I quote her here, she goes, I'm going to speak for 60 seconds. She spoke for eight and a half minutes. I have the recording. How to give her money. And yeah, she did an eight and a half minute money pitch in church. Correct. Yeah, what did she say? She said, um, and she had an envelope and she goes, my son moved me so much in this envelope. I have a

sacrificial gift for him in this church. She didn't tell us what it was or how much it was. And she goes, well, if I could, I'd sell my house, but I can't sell my home. Why? I don't know. I would ask her the same thing. And she goes, I have shoes in jewelry, but I can't sell those. And so this is my sacrifice. And then she looked out and she goes, you guys need to sacrifice. She goes, that nice easter dress you're wearing. Your sacrifice should be more than that dress. And she goes,

Christ was the sacrifice in the offering and the tithe, but that doesn't mean it stops with Christ.

“Oh, this is a hard sell. Hard sell. So you need to sacrifice. Jesus died so send me money.”

Mm-hmm. Well, and then it was cute. She goes, she goes, oh, and we do so much for the community. Which they do things for the community. She goes, we do a food pantry and we give away food. Well, you don't pay for that food. That food is delivered to the church and then the church

And so it's the carrot. I always say churches will use a carrot or organizations will use a carrot

to get you to give. And out of your gift, let's say it's 100 carrots that they get and they're going to use that one carrot to kind of dangle in front of your face. Did you get a sense that Paul White was leading like any kind of pastoral care? You know, people have problems in churches as in everywhere else. And one of the main jobs of a pastor is to be the shepherd for that flock, right? It sounds like her daughter-in-law likes to do that. Um, the charismatic,

her very charismatic. You know, so she prays and tongues and, you know, they do all that. So they're very into that. But Paula walked in after the service started. I saw her come in and she walked out before it left or before it ended and she left. Actually. Oh, yeah. I wouldn't say there's any on-site shepherding that Paula does. So who is Paula White exactly? And pardon my ignorance. But it's just she's become this figure. She's one of the people who prayed over the president and encouraged this

war with Iran. Um, I country with over a million Christians in it. Uh, but she's like played a

“role in our form policy. So I think it's, and of course, she's been used and has allowed herself to”

be used to justify this war and violence in the name of Jesus. So I think it's worth asking like, who where does she come from? Who is this person? I don't know her upbringing, but I'll start with this. I will give Paula the benefit of the doubt that she came into the church space wanting to do good. Yes. She wanted to save souls. She wanted to preach the gospel. I believe that. But I also believe

I think that's a, that's we should always extend that benefit out to people. Okay. So when you,

when she's presenting that gospel, she has to play in a certain legal realm, which is religious institutions, corporations in America. I firmly stand on my word that that legal architecture will corrupt anybody that goes into the mission or that ministry full-time. So she started a church in Tampa called without walls with her husband Randy Knight. Um, I went to the building Saturday because I wanted to see where that was. So I drove up to Tampa and now it's a, it's a bar.

It's like a restaurant bar. And so I went into the church as a bar. Well, so I went in and

“talked to the, uh, the restaurant. I'm like, hey, was this Paula White's church with that walls?”

And the manager was like, yeah. So she's like, we get this question a lot actually, which is fascinating. So I don't know the, the financial exchange or the, or the real estate side of things, but the original without walls church was bulldozed and then that restaurant bar was built on the property. Um, so she and her husband started a church in Tampa. They started a church in Tampa called without walls. Um, there's some scandal wrapped around that church. Uh, they, they used to work

or they're very loudly talking about how they work in prostitution. They help prostitutes. They help the needy in that area. Um, and so I talked with the past employee who said that, and we're getting the tapes right now. We found some old VHS tapes from Paula back in the day. So those are actually just, they just arrived in my house. Very excited to look at those. Um, but they said, oh, there's a run down hotel on the property next to us. We bought that hotel. We're going to

turn it into a rehab facility for prostitutes and drug addicts. And that's going to be our main witness.

“Awesome. I, that's right where I think Christ would be is hanging out with the hurting the”

needy, the prostitute, the widowed. Yeah. Um, and so they started raising money for this hotel that they had built. And, uh, they raised, I don't know how the exact amount, but hundreds of thousands of

dollars. And some of their congregants mortgage their homes for it will come to find out they never

even bought the hotel. This was just all theory and a good intentioned idea. Um, and so that really crippled the church. And at the same time, um, her husband kind of, I'll just say fell off the wagon. And, uh, so they got divorced. And her spiritual advisor was TD Jakes. Do you know who TD Jakes? Yes, I've met TD Jakes. So her spiritual advisor, it's from this black preacher, Biblical Unbacker. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. Yeah. He was her spiritual advisor. He was also another pastor's

spiritual advisor in Opapka. And, um, unfortunately, that pastor in Opapka, um, Odeed in Bath tub and on drugs, on drugs. Yeah. And, uh, he was with a prostitute. The prostitute made the call, the emergency call he died. And so TD Jakes as without walls is crumbling. TD Jakes as the spiritual advisor tells Paul had to go take over this church in Opapka. So Opapka, so Opapka moves to Opapka takes over that church, which they rebranded to story-life church. And that became her home

church. So there is the coolest movie we can imagine. It's a new film adaptation of George Orwell's

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first take its available now at angel.com/tucker. Wow, that's quite a story. Then what happened?

She gets remarried? She's remarried to one of the abandoned members of Journey. That awesome band that I love to listen to. So he plays piano for her on stage. She preaches. It's a great husband, wife, duo. She did pastor this church. She sends past it down to her son, Brad Knight. Why did she pass it down because she became a special government employee under Trump? And you can't run a trip. You can't ride it. I believe the rule is you can't run an on-profit or you can't

“be raising money outside. So I don't want to judge her as a person. There's a lot written about”

for personal life. I don't know what is true and what is not true. So I don't want to repeat it. But I mean, it's kind of defined by personal scandal. Correct. There's a lot of personal scandal that I won't even go into. Of course, because I don't know and I don't want to repeat things that are not true. But it's sexual scandal. Those delegations. So there's that. And I do think in order to maintain credibility. I also think like your faith requires you to explain that and show

people that it's, you know, true and repent, apologize, be better or prove it's not true. But like that seems to all kind of unaddressed. So how did she wind up given all that? The president of the United States chief fanit, a spiritual advisor. I've talked to a past employee of hers who

Paul is a very bold woman. Very loud. I had never seen him. I don't consider that a compliment at all.

I just want to be clear. But bold and loud. Yeah. I'm not into it. No, either am I. And so I had never been around her before. But when her son was preaching and her son would say something, she would always be the loudest one yell. Amen, brother. Go, go, son. You know, she just wanted to, I find that awful. Yeah. And we're like, told we have to think that's great. I don't think it's great at all. Yeah. But sorry. I, I, well, they've women really make history. I don't know about that. I mean,

stop. Yeah. But excuse me. I would agree with you. But so the stories that I've heard from her employees are, she Trump was a mark from the early 2000s. So she would go down a moral logo and hang out at moral logo, just waiting for Trump to pass. And when Trump would pass, she'd approach him. And she's a very bullish, bold woman. So she kind of had a mark on Trump for decades. And then same thing in New York. She rented an apartment in Trump Tower. And she stayed in Trump Tower waiting

to have a FaceTime with Trump. So she's been playing the long game with Trump. Has she, I mean, is she like a well-known theologian? I don't know. No. So like, but I guess, all I'm saying is there are all kinds of predators around all power centers in hunting the White House, right? It's just that's the nature of power. It's like a bug light. It draws the Michael Cones of the world into your orbit, right? People who want power and money. But if you're the spiritual advisor,

you would think there would be some like track record of, I don't know, Christian living. So I got a question for you to talk. Tucker, can I call you talk? Tell me whatever you want. So should your business model, if you're a pastor, should your business model emulate Christ?

“I think your whole life is supposed to emulate Christ. Perfect. So here's your bylaws,”

which are marked confidential by the way. So her church cannot read her bylaws. The people who fund her cannot water bylaws. The only reason why they came out was because of a lawsuit.

members of the Board of Directors are voting. So congregants who fund it have no say over anything.

“We'll jump a few pages further about removing officers. So if for some reason,”

she had a scandal, right? Usually we remove officers from corporations that have scandals or abuse their control and power. But not for her, ready? Any officer except the pastor president. She is the pastor and president. Maybe remove from his or her office by the Board of Directors. The pastor president shall have the authority to remove any officer from his or her office at any time at her discretion. So she cannot be removed because any officer except the pastor president can

be removed and then she can fire anyone at any time. For anything. So she has unilateral control. It gets better, ready? Section five is resignation, removal, succession of pastor president. If the pastor president voluntarily resigns, she may designator successor, successor. The pastor president shall serve as president and a member of the Board of Directors until her death or resignation without need of election or appointment. She shall not be subject to removal.

These are about says that. Is this a monarchy? What is this? Some monarchy? It's a monarchical power. Depth upon her death, the pastor president shall be succeeded in the office of pastor president and as a director by her son Brad Knight. It's a dynasty in bylaws that congregants can't see. Is this a Christian principle? I know. No. And then this is the banger. Ready powers of officers. The senior pastor is the president of the corporation. And this is a sticking point for me because

most pastors will say my church is not a business. Well, no, it's corporation. Registered with the state. It's very much a business, right? So the senior pastor is the president of the corporation and is referred to within these bylaws as pastor president. Here's the general. The church finds its headship under the Lord Jesus Christ in its pastor president. So you don't find your headship in Jesus Christ. You find it under the Lord Jesus Christ in Paul the White. So if I

want to get to Jesus Christ, I have to go through Paul the White. Believe we had a Protestant Reformation to get away from this idea. You can keep that. That the leader is infallible and the

leader speaks always and everywhere for God himself. Yes. Isn't that why we had the Reformation

500 years ago? Well, that's the point of Christ. Christ came to remove middlemen, to remove

“the little bit of priesthood. That's what I thought. Yeah. Wow, that's so how unusual you have”

never heard of anything like that. How unusual is that? That's pretty aggressive bylaws. But here's second Baptist bylaws. So I had a fun interaction in Houston the other week. This is a church with a billion dollars in assets in Houston, a billion. It's 98 years old. So that means generation after generation of generous, Christ-centered, Houstonians have funded this building. Some of my favorite people in the world and relatives of mine who I really look up to as Christians, you know,

have spent a lot of time in that church and help fund it and whatever. So I know that there are

true amazing people Christians in that church. 93,000 members had voting rights and voting rights

are, hey, just like a democracy, just like America, a republic, we want to have a say and just like

“the church in Acts. Yes, we want to have a say early as church and that's what we should probably”

be modeling ourselves after, right? We want to have a say in how this all operates a couple years ago. One very interesting lawyer from Dallas who I've I've had multiple interactions with and then the young family decided to in a shady back-and-deal, remove voting rights of 93, thousand members like that. So a billion dollars in assets where that was voted on by 93,000 members in a single meeting on page seven, removed the voting rights as such members are not entitled

to vote in person by proxy or otherwise. So a billion dollars in assets were put into the hands of six people, five of which are related. When did that happen? 23 and now there's an ongoing lawsuit because the congregants are suing for their rights back. How can you do that? You can't, but shady lawyers.

So this is a big thing that we talk about in the religion business in season one. The church was never

meant to be a capitalistic endeavor. Oh, it's not a business. Yes, but capitalism has crept into it and shrewd smart businessman and women and lawyers have realized it is the perfect legal architecture

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“And your point is, and you've devoted, I mean, I think people can watch your documentaries and”

look you up, but your point is the problem with a lot of American Christianity is not the faith, of course, you are a Christian, but is the structure that corrupts by its nature. It's like almost, I think you said to me this morning, it's like almost impossible to get out of this without being corrupted if you're leading a church with a structure like that. Correct. Was it fair? A hundred percent? It's, I say that you can go in with the best of intentions, but if there's no external

accountability on the system, that system will inevitably eat you alive and corrupt you. Your sermons, your messaging will all tilt to protect that institution. And it's, I would, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt they're doing it unconsciously, whether that be the idea of tithing, whether that be Zionism and Israel, it all tilts towards protecting the status quo of the institution. Boy, you see this in all institutions, though. Isn't the point of every institution

over time to protect and enlarge the institution itself? A hundred percent? That is the mission. But that's the, that's the need for reform and everything. The, the Bible story is so beautiful because it's a story of birth, death and resurrection over and over. In Christ talks about when the seed falls, it has to die in the sense of rebirth, but what we've created is institutional structure that can't die. We can't reform this because too many people feed off the system, there's too many

parasites. But if we killed systems and reformed them, which we need for new birth and regrowth, then people lose power, people lose their control. And it's baked into human nature. And loss of power and controls are perquisite for letting, well, for religious transformation, for letting God take control. Correct. Yeah. So that's a big deal. We Christ literally gave up all control and hung on a cross. And this is one place I want to get to,

whether you're a Christian, by 160 million self-professed American Christians out there.

My brother's a sister's out there. We can see the Bible as the Word of God. And I can speak to it on that. My atheist and an ocec friends, let's see it as a history book. And today I want to talk with you about when he said it is finished on the cross, the last words that came out of his mouth. He meant it. So if you're a Christ follower, we're going to break down a lot of scriptures that you, depending on your theological approach, you will have to say it isn't

“finished. And so that's what I want to get into. And power structure is one of them. When he”

hung on that cross, he broke all power structures. He is the only way the truth in the life. And no one gets to juh over the Father except through him. So what, what does that mean? I mean, I

understand, I mean, I always understood Jesus to be talking about his life on earth, which you're

saying that when Christ said it is finished, he was talking about the old covenants, the Abrahamic covenant and the mosaic laws, all 613 of them. Huh, is that acknowledged by churches? No, because if you acknowledge it, then your church structure, modern day church structure has to really rethink and reform. And what do you left with? The gospel is saving. The saving grace of God Christ. Love. So it's, it's interesting when you look at even churches that, you know, you agree,

I'll speak for myself that I agree with and love. You'll love the liturgy, love the people, the people. I mean, you can have purehearted people in a corrupt system. You know, the congregants, or as I just said, it's about second Baptist in Houston. But the church itself,

Christ said, in multiple gospels, this is one of my favorite lines. He says, you've taken

“traditions of men and you call it doctrine. Yes. Our churches today are nothing but tradition.”

And it's their based off of a 14-point checklist that the government put forward. They're based off the nonprofit sector created in the 1913. That's all just traditions of men. That's not inherently bad. This room, there's no inherent goodness or badness to it outside of what we apply to it. Right. And so we've taken traditions of men and call it doctrine. One of those traditions is the legal architecture of the nonprofit sector and then the religious exemptions

applied to all churches, mosques, temples, you name it. They play by the same rules in America. That legal architecture, there's only one conclusion to it. And that's corruption. There's only one. When you look at how it's structured, there's no external accountability from an exterior

“source to hold the institution accountable. The government does not hold religious institutions”

so accountable. So what it means is we hold ourselves accountable. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, scripturally. Like we can't hold. Should we just sit around me like, hey, Tucker, you and I

we've got a million bucks sitting on this table. What should we do with it? Well, let's just pull

each other accountable with what we're going to do with it. No, we need some outside pressure saying, hey, let's oversee what we're going to do and how we're going to steward those resources. And the best part about that million or the ironic part is it's not even yours in my resources. It's the donors who gave it to us. And so the system right now is just set up for failure. Inflation makes credit card statements particularly scary. You work 40, 50 hours a week just to buy groceries

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In this year, 10,000 electro-fahrzeuges will be held in large groups of Europe. For improvements like football, for young people. I don't know. 10,000 electro-fahrzeuges and it will be a lot more. Based on the plans of vehicles in our live partner in the EU and Großbritannian will end 2626. And you think it's uniquely bad in this country because of the

“non-profit structured device in 1913. Same year as income tax, I think. Correct. Same thing,”

same year as Jack Lyland and all sorts of interesting things. And then you made reference to the 14-point checklist. Can you just fill us in on all of that since I'm ignorant? Yeah, so in 1913, the IRS carved out or the government carved out the non-profit sector. It looked at, it looked at all the institutions in America and it said, "Wow, there's really brilliant institutions that help social good and this is a big one. They build local social capital in their community."

In 1913, it's pretty really technology, you know, your life was like an 80 mile radius basically. Yes. So you cared about your local community. And so the government said, "Hey, these businesses do things that we can't. Salvation Army was a great example." So the Salvation Army does things for its local community that the federal government and state government cannot do. So we're going to carve out these businesses and say, "Hey, you don't have to pay taxes.

You have more freedom to pursue your mission," which is building social capital in your community, helping the homeless, the needy, basically Matthew 25, which is who Christ told us to help.

Flash forward to today, there's 1.9 million non-profits. So it went from 12,000

organizations in 1913 to 1.9 million. And you have to ask why the jump. And most arguments are

If you do the math, that's around 50,000 organizations today. So population increase didn't increase

“the non-profit sector. So how do we go from 12,000 to 1.9 million? Well, I think a lot of good”

intention people wanted to help people, but the lack of accountability in the system has turned the non-profit sector into an opportunity for massive abuse and in yourment. And in yourment is,

I don't know, the definition in front of me, but it's basically no founder, family member or

executive can enure themselves by the benefit of the organization's net assets or net resources. So I can take a salary, but I can't use it like a personal piggy bank. And these guys use it like a personal piggy bank. And most people use the non-profit sector, not like a personal piggy bank. How do they do it? From a church perspective? Yeah. Well, you can talk or start a church right now. You can just say, "I'm a church."

And because you say your a church, you get that designation from the IRS immediately. They don't have to approve you of it because of what I would argue separation of church and state. And so and that's like a double dip. They love to save separation church and state until they want the state to help them out. And it's an interesting rabbit hole to go down. But then you just

file with the state. You file your articles of incorporation, so you are a business. But you never

have to tell the Fed what you're doing at all. And then if you're in the evangelical world, the non-denominational world, there's no denominational hierarchy. So then it's the guys, the limit. It's how care ismatic are you? How good of a teacher are you? How good of an entertainer are you? And at that point it just becomes how quickly you can scale. And we call it Religious Economic Theory in the Religion Business. Because it's now, if I start a church Tucker down the street

from yours, now we're pitted against each other for consumers. And so I'm going to get a better stage than you. And then you're going to get a better lighting system. So I got to outcompete you and naturally the system just becomes a production and like a production. And we need consumers in. So we got to keep them entertained. And so the nonprofit sector has just corrupted over time because of the lack of accountability. And from the secular side, nonprofits used to look local.

“And that's why it was carved out originally, right? A nonprofit was supposed to build their”

local community. Well, now with globalism, nonprofits want to look global. It's way more appealing for me to put a starving kid from Africa on the cover of my newsletter than a white kid who need some school books down the street. And so the secular side went global. So they forgot about the local community. And the church started pitting against each other for consumers. And so the

nonprofit sector just naturally is corrupted and it's never been performed. So that's how you wind

up with churches, air quotes that are actually TV studios. Correct. Correct. And ironic ly so the 14-point checklist which I originally thought came from the IRS because there were so many churches popping up. Someone was like, how do we define what a church is? There was a big lawsuit. I can't remember it was in the 50s or 60s. And it was literally a wine distillery. It was registered as a church. And so there was a lawsuit about it because they're like, you're not a church dude,

you're just selling wine. And so the word on the street is the IRS was like, hey, we got to put some structure to this. And so outpopped this 14-point checklist and the checklist came from that lawsuit and it was in California. And it's really simple. You need a house of worship. You need a place. You need a physical building. You need a congregation. That congregation has to what do they call it? It's basically a faith statement. Your congregation has to have a specific

“faith statement to itself. And then you have to meet once a month physically. And most churches”

already acted like that. Somewhat. And so boom, you get the exemption. Well, what that does is it shoves all religion and faiths into that simple box. And so Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, you name it, Scientology. They just play by the same rules now. And so that they want the tax exemption. They have to behave. They want the tax exemption. But what does that do? That's not really separation, church and state. That's actually the state constraining church. Correct. And you

have to ask like why let's talk about it. We'll give everybody the benefit of the doubt. Why what happens? What's the byproduct of that 14-point checklist? Every mosque looks like every Christian church. Looks like every Jewish synagogue. It's the same thing. The exterior might be looking a little different. Your message from the pulpit might be a different. But structurally, they're all the same. And what it does is it pulls all resources inward. It calcifies the institution as opposed to

It was help your neighbor. It was go out and make disciples. Of course. Jesus sends the disciples out.

“But now it's come in. And naturally, what does that do? If I'm bringing everybody into my church,”

hierarchy starts building, we need resource to do this. And it's just a natural conclusion to what happened in 1913 and then the 14-point checklist. That's amazing. So some of these churches have become very rich. It sounds like very. Yeah, the LDA Mormon church. They're sitting in

like 350 billion in net assets billion with a B. The second largest private landowner in the

US now. They'll hit a trillion dollars in market assets if they keep their profit. They're the market profits in the next 15 years. Why? What's the point of a church? Any church having them much money? Well, they'll say it's for a famine. And they'll say it's for the second coming. That's literally their argument. Yes. And so you go, okay. I'll even give you that, ready. So, and they use the story of Joseph and the famine in Egypt as an example. They have the largest

“farm, largest ranch in Florida. Well, they're turning it into a city. Desiret. Yeah. They want to build”

their 130,000 acre city. Yeah, they're working on that right now. Interesting. But so what they what they say is they point to Joseph. Well, Joseph only stockpiled for seven years. Right. The Mormon church has stockpiled indefinitely. So they have they've reached something that the widows might report calls escape velocity. They make so much in the market in interest alone. They could fund the global LDS church just off a fraction of the interest and grow in perpetuity.

They would never have to ask a dollar for any from any congregant again. But they still ask you for

your money. It's interesting that they point to Joseph. I mean, it's a wonderful, amazing story. It's a huge chunk of Genesis, right? Yeah. And a great, great story. But it's kind of the opposite of the way Jesus commanded his own disciples. He sends them out with nothing. Correct. With no preparation whatsoever, no food, no arms, no extra sandals, no extra clothes. He doesn't even send them a talking point. He doesn't tell them what to say. Well,

can I ask you, why do you think he sent them out with nothing? So they would rely on God. He says when you're holding to court, don't think about what you're going to say. The Holy

Spirit will speak for you. Just open your mouth and start talking. And then, and so they would

rely on the generosity of others. Yes. And of God. Yeah. Like, they put yourself out there and God comes to the rescue, display weakness, and God will become your strength. So he's like telling very explicitly people not to prepare for that eventuality. I mean, all of us disobey it, I certainly do. But I'm, I hope I'm not sending self-righteous, but like that's not the message of the gospels that I can tell. I agree. So what if we built, we've just, we've built corporations

labeled with Jesus on him. We've built products labeled with Jesus. We've built energy drinks, labeled with Jesus. We've built, we're selling Jesus in man. Does he talk about selling him his name and his father's name? He does. Yeah. Explain. Well, there's a story and it's right before they want to kill him. He walks into the temple and he starts flipping tables over and he has this whip and he's whipping people, like whipping people. And he goes, "You've turned my father's house

into a robber's den." And the place of worship where you're supposed to worship, Jehovah, my father. You've turned this house into a robber's den. You're making money in my father's name. And what are we doing? We've turned the entire religious structure in America, Christian structure into a money-making endeavor. Even well-intentioned denominations, they have to accept money to keep

“the machine moving. It's a hungry machine financially. And so I believe the models totally backwards.”

We've, Americans are good at well. All humans are good at building. But Americans are really good at building. And we've just built things to the point where they've corrupted. And the the casualty of that is the true body of Christ is now chained to the pews of the institution because they have to be. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I grew up in a church like that. A church that built buildings that were so beautiful that you could not go to them even when they became pagan. Yeah. It's like a lot of it.

It's such a beautiful church. I mean, there aren't many of those left in the United States, but with the Episcopal Church built a pretty building, probably in the whole country. Some of my love cathedrals. I travel a lot in my favorite thing are cathedrals. But during the Protestant

because when Christ came, he goes, you are the temple. The Holy Spirit dwells in you. There's no

more physical temple. Right. And so what are we building? We're building physical temples. And the

“LDS side of things is fascinating too in regards to the temples they love to build. And you have to”

ask why they want to build those temples. And that just goes into the history of Joseph Smith and Mormonism. But they've, I tip my hat to the Mormon church in regards to you figured out the cheat code, like in any video again, you figured the cheat code out in the religious exemption side of things, because the only reason why they got rolled, invested by the SEC is they had so much money invested

and they weren't filing what's called a 13F. So when you have a hundred million bucks invested in the

market, you have to fill out an informational 13F, which is just an informational filing saying, hey, here's my stock, here's our stock portfolio because you could technically sway the market. Of course, yeah. And they have billions, tens of billions invested in the market. And we know where, can you know where? Yeah, you can now, now they're, they fill out the forms now. And so they're heavily invested in pharmaceuticals, they're heavily invested in machinery of war. So the LDS church profits from

more and from COVID, you know, they, they, that's true. Yeah, how from COVID? They are heavily invested in Pfizer, and Moderna, and all the vaccine companies. That's verified. Verified. Yeah. Verified on their 13F. So when the government under Biden, you know, very liberal anti-Mormon, you would think government starts pushing, commanding the populations to take the vaccine. How does the Mormon hierarchy respond

“to that? They put out a marketing video saying, you should get the job. You should get the vaccine,”

actually. Yeah. And the the profit got a shot live on camera. I don't know if it's a real vaccine or just a dummy or his sake. I hope it wasn't. Yeah. But yeah, they encouraged their church congregation to get the vaccine. That's true. True. Fact. Fact on camera. I mean, it's only been five years, but that's like so shocking that any church would do that, but they weren't the only church that did that. Yeah. Lots encouraged it. Churches have become political, whether right or left.

And churches have become a weapon of the political party. It's a box on a shelf. When I need that evangelical vote, I'm going to pull it off. So you know, for a fact that the LDS church is invested in weapon manufacturing? Yeah. They're heavily invested in North of Grumman and multiple other.

“How can a church invest in like weapons that kill innocence? I don't, I think it's extremely”

antithetical to what they believe, but their argument is Nathan, we're just following the status quo of the market. Whatever the indexes, we just invest in. They don't, they don't care about what they're invested in. Then they've said that. I like a lot of more than just like a lot of, let me and let me be very clear, Tucker. There are so many good Christians, Mormons, like people are awesome. Institutions are what I can't stand because they corrupt. So it's how do we bring

accountability and reform into institutions? Whether that be religious institutions or government institutions, there has to be accountability, transparency, and accountability. Right. No, it's totally right. I mean, you run into, you know, the longer you live and the more you travel and the more people you meet, you'll run into people and institutions that you revile. They just that are just obviously evil CIA, FBI, IRS, you know, who are just great people and you're like, wow, you know, I feel

sorry for you, but it's also just important to make the distinction between individuals in whatever institution. I love people. I love people. I love people. I do too. So, Franklin Graham, like how much money has Samaritan's purse amassed. Franklin, Billy Sun, so Samaritan's purse does great work. They work with refugees. They work immigration. They work natural disasters. They do

good work. And I want to, you to think about that carrot. There's always that carrot that non-profits

single. This is their 2021 990, which is just an informational sheet that churches do not have to file. So, the beautiful part about the 990s, there's the first two pages. A 990 is just an informational sheet that every secular nonprofit files annually and it shows the IRS and then their donors

forget, I want to talk about Alaska. Just say, let's talk about Alaska. This is 2021. Up in this top right, there's two numbers highlighted. What's the first, and then the first number highlighted, holy smokes, is 923,718,989. The second number is 1,222,699. So, from 2020 to 2021, their net assets

jumped from 900 billion to 1.2, right? Yes. This is their 2024. So, remember guys, 900 million

“in 2021. This is 2024 a few years later. It jumps to almost 2.5 billion. 2.5 billion. What does that mean?”

How can a charity have $2.5 billion in assets? They're building a war chest. It's the same thing with the LDS church. They've realized that the non-profit can do some good with a carrot, but then just stockpile money. So, donors are giving, looking at the carrot saying, we're doing good work as the non-profit itself, as the corporation just stockpiles resources. But to what end? To the LDS churches, and they figured it out to the point where there's no end inside,

at least the Mormons have a consistent theology where there's going to be a famine and we're banking against it. But yeah, but that's, I get that, okay, for seven years, but you're talking about indefinitely. They're banking on an indefinite famine. Right, I don't, then I don't really see where God fits into that. No. He's, he's not there, bro. Okay. Yeah. But why would Samaritan's

“purse, which is not a Mormon organization, why would they have $2.5 billion banked?”

I don't know. I don't know. It's a great question for Franklin. And so how much do they spend

a year helping the needy? Estimates are 60 to 100 million. But they're raising hundreds of

millions annually. So they're building this war chest. And this is, how can Franklin Graham be raising that much more than he's spending on the needy? Because he's a good fundraiser. Yeah. But like, isn't the month, don't people give to him to do good? Yes. Thanks. So what I see is non-profits, the non-profits structure right now is just draining and anti-axation is draining the American populace of resource of wealth for what end? I don't know.

But life's getting more expensive, non-profits are cheerleading saying they're doing more, as homelessness rises, as poverty rises, the entire system and architecture is broken. In institutional religion and politics in America, go hand in hand even though they say that.

Yeah. I mean, I always gave to land trust because I don't like, you know, ugly development.

And I really love nature so passionately. But then you realize the land trust kind of not all land trusts, but a lot of land trusts exist for their own benefit. And then they gate the land and you can't use it. Yeah. So you can't hunger fish on their land. So like, what's the point of this exactly? Like, I hunger fish on timber land, paper company land? Yeah. But the second, some non-profit from Vermont takes over, you can't go on the land. So like, why

do you exist exactly? And they own all the land in a lot of places? Why does the non-profit sector

“exist? It's a great question for itself. Yes. That's what it's corrupted into. So can I ask you?”

And I don't want to focus too much in smartness, because I know that there are many groups like it, but they're at two and a half billion dollars, clearly one of the biggest. A lot of these guys fly private. And it's someone who flies commercial often coach. I mean, because you should, because like, why would you be wasting money on a private plane all the time? Like, how does a Christian organization just if I have a private jet? It's usually their

schedules are too busy Tucker. That's their rationale. Copeland, do planets, they say, no one could fly public with my travel schedule? Maybe you slow down your travel schedule a little bit. It might be. I only say that because I've flown private enough to know that it's like next level expensive. Like, there's no way that even for businesses, rich people don't buy their own planes, because like, I just can't justify that. I'll charter if I need it.

There's a funny, there's a funny story. So to have a private jet that you own and pilots use retirement, you pay, fuel costs that you shoulder to endless maintenance on the plane, incredibly expensive. Like, ask any rich person that rich people don't do, I mean, some do, but most rich people are like, I'm not rich enough for that. Yeah. Right. There's a great story. I know a lot of rich people trust me. They're like, I'm rich, but I'm not that rich. That you see some preacher

who's got a private jet. It's like, what world are you living in? What is this? Well, and the congregation will justify it, too. That's what's so backwards. That makes me mad.

jet. It's, it's not, I wouldn't say it's that common. There's, there's some, a lot of pastors try to get into that space and then their congregations do sometimes push back. And so who is I just talk? If I had a pastor in a church that I was attending on Sunday, say, we need a private jet. I'm not stand up in the middle of service and say, son, I know more about this than you do. You do not need a private jet. Jesus didn't fly private. He wrote a donkey. Like, what are you doing?

Well, then they'll say, oh, but the donkey was literally, I've had someone say that was the fastest

“mode of transportation. It wasn't. It was the most humiliating form of transportation. That's why”

to chose it. Yeah. Yeah. But they'll justify it. Samaritan's purse has, I didn't print their entire

2024. But last year they had, I think, 134 million in, and plain assets. What? Let me see.

Yeah, it's not on this dock. I'm way more comfortable with the pastor sleeping with his assistant, which is totally immoral than I am with him having a private jet. I agree. I agree. Because at least everyone realizes that you're supposed to sleep with your assistant. It's totally sinful. It's wrong. Well, the planes are the-- But a plane is like a subtle kind of evil. It's like, no one even notices. Oh, so important. He's got a plane. Well, that's the prosperity gospel message

creeping in. Right? What is that? Exactly. This is Paula White. This is Kenneth Copeland. Do plantus. This is, if God favors me, I will be prosperous. And it comes from Malachi three. Oh, guys. Yeah, opening the windows of heaven. And you're going to be prospered. Malachi three is talking about one thing. It's talking about rain for their fields. It's saying, if you bring into the storehouse, I will open the windows of heaven to you and pour out a blessing like you've

never seen. This Malachi was talking about rain falling on the land so you could refill your storehouse.

He wasn't talking about a private plane. Well, especially for a Christian to be like, well, you know, why are you doing that? Malachi three. It's like, we've got a whole new testament

“and four gospels in that. And like, why don't you read those and tell me if you should have a”

private plane at other people's expense? Well, this goes back to our conversation earlier about Malachi three. If we don't read the scriptures and in society and see it as one book and one glorious story, you can bastardize a couple of verses that ended up have detrimental effects on the global church. The body of Christ, when I say the church. I'm sorry to do this. Now, I just want to be totally transparent and say that Franklin Graham called me into some light. So I'm obviously

no different from Graham. So I should just say that to some people understand that I probably have mixed motives in doing this. I'm not a pure person. But I also think it's worth just pausing in Franklin Graham for a second because his father was a great man. I think Franklin Graham is like a sober series. Person in a lot of ways. He's not a transparent, ridiculous figure. Like Paul White. I mean, it's almost too easy to beat up him Paul. Paul White. Okay. Yeah. The great

theologian Paul White. But Franklin Graham is a much more serious person and he's always in

“Fox News and all that. And so that's why I do think it's worth pausing and having you restate.”

How much do they own in private aircraft around 130 million? That's just tray bonkers as the French say. Like that's just beyond 130 million dollars. And this is a great track to move into Alaska. So he bought a piece of land with his wife on late Clark in Alaska. Very remote. I've been to Alaska a few times so I understand how remote me to Alaska is beautiful. Some of the most pretty country in the world hard to get to though. Very. And this is what gets interesting. So I believe I don't have

the document in front of me. He and his wife bought this little lake front half acres. I believe it's a half acre or maybe even a quarter acre. Very small property on beautiful lake Clark. A few years and they purchased it personally because Franklin loves Alaska. He loves fishing. He loves bear hunting. He's a he's a. He loves. Yeah. No, I like that about him. And I guess I'm a big outdoorsman you are. And well, what happened was a few years later, Samaritan's purse bought the lot next to him.

And flash forward in the little town called it's called Port Allsworth. There's only a couple hundred people that live their full time. There's no signals you can't drive to it. There is no road that gets you from Anchorage or any other city to Port Allsworth. The only way to get there is by flight, private plane. And there's a dirt runway. There's two of them. Or by boat, by barge up these rivers. Yeah. And this is a good story. It's for back story. So I was up in Alaska

by four years ago. No, longer than that five years ago. And we're in the middle of nowhere. I'm with in you. It's like we're going back packing in on float planes to find a property that my

carrying a tag. I got a 10 mill straps for my chest, a shotgun, a bear gun, and I'm like, we're going.

“We're in the middle of nowhere. We're sitting with this in you. We're staying at her cabin. And”

she's making us a meal. And she asks what I do. And I say the religion business. And I give her the story. We're filming it. And she goes, oh, you won't believe it. Her husband owns a barge. And barge is barge's equipment up and down these rivers. And she goes, we just barged a soft top. before Bronco brand new 2021. So it's right when the Ford Bronco came out. And I'm like, what is a soft top for Bronco being barged up a river in the middle of nowhere for? And uh, and this

is where you couldn't get them. They were, you know, they're very hard to get. And she goes, yeah,

uh, we barged it up for Samaritan's purse. And I was like, what? And she goes, yeah, here's the

invoice. And she put the invoice in front of me that said Samaritan's purse, oh, this is so corrupt. I can't believe this. Yeah, real. And this is where it gets crazier. So I was like, wait,

“what do they do? And she goes, they have this camp for, which is awesome. My brother's a Marine,”

my best friend's a Marine, or a military, my business partners retired military. I have massive respect for our armed forces. So they started an on profit up there, um, called heal our patriots. And, uh, they bring couples. Husband wife couples up there to reinvigorate their relationship and return them to Christ. Awesome idea, right? And so, uh, but I'm like, what's a soft hot Ford Bronco doing in the harshest environments in the world? I mean, like no one takes

nice things up there because they all rust and get destroyed within a few seasons. So I started doing some research, uh, sure enough I find it. They bring a couple hundred people up there a year for three months out of the year. Um, they have these massive lake front cabins. Now they bought. I said there was two dirt runways. Samaritan's purse bought one of the runways.

“So now they have their own private air strip. And, uh, so Franklin and his wife have a house”

and they bring a couple Mike Pence. Has been there multiple times. Um, and so, ironically I'm like, I'm going. So a camera operator and I, we went to Anchorage, took a plane to, I can't, a little sess night of somewhere else. Then we got on a float plane. And we landed, we're in the middle of nowhere, Tucker. And all of a sudden, there's, it's, have you seen the movie, uh, Truman Show? No. Uh, great movie. But it's about a fake world. It was a fake world. There wasn't a blade of grass

out of place. Like the amount of upkeeping in care to make this place look perfect. And then the crazier part is this is where this is where I go conspiracy theory. There's these massive fuel storage tanks, massive 20,000 gallons at a time. And this, this plane would fly in and land and just refuel these tanks. And I talked to the pilot. And he's like, yeah, this place is like a bunker basically to just camp out. And I'm like, oh, this is like Franklin Graham's World War III,

like, hideout. Like, if things go south, he's going to ping up here. He's got, they've got gardens. They've got, um, full, uh, green houses. I'm like, this is like, this is the bug out zone. And that's just Mike and Spears E Theory, but not, I mean, every, every rich person in the world thinks that way. So the reason why I'm saying this is this organization is paid for by donor dollars.

It is a multi-million dollar a year operation. Franklin Graham, I have his flight logs, flies his

private jet back and forth from North Carolina to Alaska during this three-month window. If you really wanted to be a, run a, a successful, come on, profit, crazy. This is where it gets crazier. Like, you live in North Carolina, almost on the water. You could start a great operation there in your backyard. But here's my kicker. They're 990s show donors where the money goes. Um, this isn't their full 990s. So you

wouldn't be able to see it. But in the back of a 990, they line itemize, uh, where you're supposed to line itemize where your money goes. There is nothing in their 990 that has anything to do with Alaska. So it's buried in another line item that no donor knows about. So I just get, I get this story specifically because that's every rich guy in the world. Wants, you know, sportsmen wants a camp on a remote lake in Alaska. Easy access and wants a

bug out spot. Everybody wants that. I mean, I, I would know. Yeah. And that's where we're talks about. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And that's the opposite of a conspiracy theory. That's like the thing people want most. And if you can find a way to get your non-profit to pay for it and a way to morally justify it to your self-love, helping wounded warriors keep their marriages together. That's just, uh, that is so corrupt. If what you're saying is true, that's like,

of the story. So at the end of the runway, there's a food truck that they barged up, get this, they barged this food truck up there to be there, too. And it's called, oh, what's Franklin's daughter's name, CC, or she goes by, I don't know. Can't remember name. It's named after his daughter, his food truck. They serve a very specific hamburger that's Franklin Graham's favorite hamburger. His favorite meat patty. And so we just picked a random date to go. Like, I didn't coordinate this or

anything, but you can only go in the summer. And so, uh, I'm sitting there and it's the only place to eat. So literally we ate there every day. And, uh, we're sitting there and we, we had to hike this ridge line to get a shot looking down. And, uh, Franklin Graham pulls up in the Bronco.

“And I'm like, well, my camera operator's like, dude, that's the Bronco when I was like, what?”

And out drives from this side road, this soft top Bronco pulls up, gets out, walks straight into the food truck. Not goes up to order, walks into the back of kitchen and starts making himself a burger. And we have a camera. And so I just put the camera on the table and it starts rolling. And there's only two picnic tables. And so I'm looking this way. Franklin makes his burger walks out, sits in the other picnic table steering right out. We can I ask like, where is there to drive? There's nowhere to drive.

The runway. So the Bronco is to drive from the runway to the camp. The, the Bronco is to drive from his house down the air strip to the main set. How far is it? Probably a quarter mile.

Third of a what? Yeah. And they barged a brand new Bronco in to drive a quarter mile.

Yeah. Most people use plods or golf carts, you know, because there's nothing to walk. There was one other car that I saw. It was a, um, it was like a 1988 Chevy suburban. And I know it because that it was my first car. So, um, great vehicle. Yeah. 4.54. That. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that was the only other car. And then a brand new Ford Bronx off top. Ford Bronco.

“Yeah. Wow. I don't think most really rich people who actually made the money honestly,”

or not honestly, but who made it themselves and didn't just like not pay taxes on donor money designed to help starving Africans. I don't even think they would go to that expense. It was impressive. That's very extravagant. Well, and he, he's using donor money to justify it. And then on their 90s, you can't find the line item cost of the operation. That's the problem I have. What did people say when you tell them? I've never heard any of this,

but it's, I would say it's 50, 50. The people who don't like abuse are like, that's, that's

incredible, but I would never, I don't think that's Franklin Graham. Because they, they look at

Billy Graham, who I respect and they go, he's the son of Billy Graham. But again, all systems corrupt and anybody who goes into this system eventually gets eaten by it. And the other side,

“actually try to justify it. So many people try to justify this type of abuse. Really? How?”

Franklin's a godly man, Tucker. A godly man is a humble man. That's the first sign of godliness humility because you're not god. Yeah. Right. So that was the model that Jesus left us. That was the model of the early churches humility. Well, I find it ironic too. We have the shot in the show. Oh, to get the, the, the veterans and their wives up there, they need private planes too. So they bought these other aircraft that, um, they look like military transporters almost. Yeah.

And they land and they circle around because it's a small runway. And so they circle around

who's the first person off the plane. Who? Their staff photographer.

Because they got to get the marketing photos of these wounded veterans getting off the plane. And I just laughed. And the best part is I'm there waving an American flag because they bring out the whole town because there's so few people on this little strip. They want it to feel like it's something. So cooks everybody are coming out with a little American flag waving it. So I'm sitting there waving my flag. And it's all in the show. And the first person off is the staff

photographer. Just making sure they document it to get all the shots. And then I romantically. So I, I told the I spent six years in Maui, um, during the Lainafires, uh, which was awful. I have really close friends in Maui, uh, a couple of my friends or firefighters, um, that worked at the airport there. Some Americans put first flew their jet. Or their jumbo, their, their cargo plane from North Carolina to Laina. I'm sorry, uh, to, yeah,

line of colloey. They landed at Kahlui. And, uh, the first person off that jet, too, staff photographer, they've got to get the shot that they're bringing in materials to help the people of Maui. And then Edward Graham Franklin Sunwalks off. And, uh, I was told what was on that plane,

but they spent tens of thousands of dollars in fuel to get the marketing hundreds of thousands.

“So they could raise hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. So they could,”

so they could get the marketing shot. So they can raise money saying, look at us, help the victims of the Lainafires. And, and those victims still, like, I have such a heart from Maui and what happened there. But some Americans first for the, I would call, I would confidently say the majority of it is all just smoke and mirrors at this point. They do good work. They do some good work.

Well, two and a half billion dollars where you're not spent, if, you know,

I mean, just do the math. Yeah. That should be billions of years spent on the poor. I agree. Yeah. Just by definition. Yeah. And there's the silver lining here is American Christians and global Christians, but American Christians in particular are so generous. Yes, they are. That we could solve through the money we give most social issues in America. The church could do it. But the money is not being stewarded properly. It's being sheld up in massive corporations

and people are leveraging donor generosity to build their bug out faces in Alaska, all the images. People don't fear God very much anymore. Well, the most effective Christian mission I've

“ever seen, I think, that exists in the country is not even explicitly Christian, but it is Christian”

and say, hey, and it raises no money. They won't even take money from you. And no one gets paid. There's no one in charge. And they take people who are killing themselves and they they change them completely. Not all of them, but they have a better success rate than any other rehab by far. And they they they cruise zero power. Wow. It's the most Christian thing that happens in most churches. You'll have some like rotting congregational church. No one goes.

You've got a trans preacher, lady, or something. And then on Wednesday, they'll have the AA meeting and Jesus will fill the room. Well, there's nothing. It's amazing. When I was traveling like back in the day, I traveled to developing nations because I worked in the action sports world.

It's a surf and snow. And so you usually go to some pretty remote spots. And I would always

want to go to churches and seminaries in those regions. Oh, I bet. And so I've gotten the worship in 10 roofs and the back rivers of Honduras and the favelas in Brazil, like the most beautiful

“things. And that's what really started the religion business for me is I would these people would”

never ask for money. They would they would not have coffee and donuts. They were huddled under a tin roof as the rain was pouring down. There was no instruments. Most of the time they were just seeing a capella. And someone would pull out a little Bible and read some scriptures. And I I believe got just filled those rooms. I believe that. And then I'd come back to the mega churches that I would go to and I'd walk in and I'd be like, oh, it's just fog machine's fill in the room

for sure. But it was just performance. And so that really made me rethink what is a church. Yeah, I mean, especially since Jesus is pretty tough on the rich and on money. It's a challenge to any of us who have excess money. It's like, what does he say? Well, money is the root of all evil, right? Well, that's what it's the love of money. Yeah, love the love of money is not the money. Right. That's what Paul said in Jesus says famously it's harder for rich

band to get to heaven than a camel for the Ivan needle. So yeah, the idea that like you follow God and get rich is like like a perfect inversion of what he says. But that's capitalism creeping into the church. And I would actually argue in this a bold statement. A democratic republic is the greatest government experiment in the history of humanity. I would I would I would enjoy it. Yeah, enjoy it. Yeah, so we enjoy it. We love I love America. You love America. I do. Capitalism should not be anywhere

near Christianity. You think Christianity is more and I don't like the word socialist with the with the the way to carries. But Christianity is socialism at its core. Non-authoritarian. It's it's it's it's the marker to build social capital. You look at that early church of acts and it transformed Rome within a couple hundred years. The greatest superpower of its time to where Constantine was like I'm a Christian hanging out with these dudes. They had no money. They had

no buildings. But somehow the love of their neighbor transformed the greatest superpower of its time. That's dangerous. In today's to be constrained. Right. And today it's just we've let capitalism and Carl Truman is a reformation thought expert brilliant guy from England. He calls it the rugged American individualistic experience. And he goes that has detrimental effects on Christianity.

How about greed? I mean, it just looks like greed to me. But yeah. So let me ask about I never

paid any attention to any of this stuff ever. Just didn't ever encounter it at all because America's like a collection of cultures that don't sort of meet each other very much. But the only reason I became aware of any of this is because of its effect on foreign policy, which I have followed closely for a long time. So all of a sudden you see these preachers endorsing violence and my understanding

the opposite. So I'm like what is this? She pressed a little bit and you find that they're

“serving this theology or ideology or demonic influence. I mean, I don't know what it is, but this”

conflation of the nation modern nation state, secular nation state of Israel with biblical Israel, whatever that was. You find this thing called Christian Zionism. And I still don't understand it. It's not Christianity. But what is it? Where does it come from? And is it as widespread among the

leaders of these institutions as it seems to be? Let's start last question first. They all seem to be

the people you're talking about, all seem to be Christian Zionists. Yeah, I would argue it. It's dispensationalism. Okay. Is the is the bedrock of it, right? Like so I feel like Zionist anti-Semite, all these hot button words are just thrown around. That's for sure. So yeah, dispensate. I don't care what anybody calls me. Like I'm going to reach. Oh, and I have my business partner and I have something for you because I'm going to go back to this right now. This is a preacher's Bible from 1668. Wow.

So preachers, this is this is what a preacher carried around in a good friend of mine is one of the biggest Bible collectors in the world. So 1668 right on the spine there. And this is what you and I are going to reference for the next, for this this time to understand dispensationalism Zionism and anti-Semiteism. Yeah, printed in 1668. And amazing. Yeah, in England. And yeah, I just figured it's

it's it's whenever anybody starts talking about subjects like this, I will always refer to

the scriptures for truth, nothing else, not popular belief, not opinions, incredible. Just the scriptures. So that's for you from Chris and I. Well, that is so kind. Thank you. I love that. Yeah, I'll just read it. Yeah, it's a good one. So it's a good book, guys. Whether you see it as a history book or the Word of God. It's a great book. Dispensationalism is a very new thing. It's only a couple hundred years old. A guy named Darby kind of spun it up. The Scolefield reference Bible

had it in its margin notes. And so it's the idea that the world is broken into dispensations or periods. And so Darby had this idea that Israel, the 12 tribes which came from Abraham, are different from the body of Christ that Christ talks about in the gospels and that Paul pushes for and really closes down in the epistles. And so dispensationalism is Israel, the tribe of Israel is set apart from the body of Christ. And part of that is this idea of reclaiming

the promise land, the physical promise. How? Where does that? I mean, Paul, who wrote the majority of the New Testament, who was a Jew, was a Pharisee, a persecutor of the church, and then MacJesus, he goes out of his way to say that the opposite of that. Romans, he destroys that argument. Like he levels dispensationalism with a sledgehammer in Romans. He brews same exact thing. Galatians hits on it too. Oh, I know. Yeah. And so it goes back to this idea when we don't see

the scriptures and this is what I want to encourage everybody out there. Christians, atheist, noxics, I don't care. Like it's the greatest history book of humanity. We can see it as that.

“And you have to see it as one story. It's not 66 different stories for the 66 book canon. It is”

one story. When we dive into this book and start cherry picking verses for parables and applying it to our life, that's a very dangerous practice because we become our own storyteller, which is our Dollar Tree. Yes. And so you have to see this book as one complete story of birth, death, and resurrection, or creation, and fulfillment in redemption. And so dispensationalism is the 12 tribes of Israel still deserve this land. And so I don't know where we want to do. And don't need

Jesus and don't need Jesus now. Okay. So that's the leaving aside the land and what you do with the Levant and all that and what the boundaries of that land are. I mean, these are all questions I tried

to get answers from in my conversation with my cuckabee to know, no available. But but that second

“area is the theological matter to the core question, which is how do you get to heaven? How are you redeemed?”

And I think the New Testament could not make it clear. Jesus could make it clear. Paul could Paul the Jewish Pharisee couldn't make it clear. It's her Jesus. It's an exclusive claim. That's it's that or nothing. Correct. And Jesus, so what it says, right? Am I missing something? 100% of chapter I don't know about. Jesus is the way the truth of the life, no one gets to the father. Okay. So then then you have people just to arrive at a nowhere 150 or 20 years ago and they're

And this goes, where does that come from? It comes back from pride is what we're all take it. So

there was only one church and it's not the Roman Catholic church. It's not the Orthodox church. Those are great traditions. I respect those traditions. I do too. But there's only one church and that's the church of Christ. That's the body of Christ. And in 1054, you have the great skism, the original split, right, denominational split. Boom. Now you have Catholicism in the Vatican and you have

“Orthodoxy. Well, today there's over 40,000 denominations. And you have to ask why, Tucker.”

If you and I preach the same gospel, what does that mean? We're equal. There's nothing different about you and I. We have the same God, the same Christ. We believe in the same healing power,

of the, through the resurrection. And we are here to help the hungry, the sick, the poor, the naked,

the prisoner, the so-journer, the orphan in the widow. But I don't want to be like you, Tucker. I want to be unique. I need something different. So I'm going to go to this book and say, oh, these guys, Tucker got it wrong. Like dispensatialism. Then I have a new message to sell. And I can sell it. And I can package it and sell it. It's a power and money. Is it the root of all of this power and money? But if all the new messages, I mean, that just seems like an explicitly

anti-Christian message that you don't, that some people don't need Jesus to be saved, I 100% agree. If you were to somewhere, I mean, you can believe it or reject it. Most people reject it. That's fine. You know, it's not my job to save people. But the Christian messages you need Jesus. So if you have Christian preachers, all of a sudden say, I feel like, well, actually not really. Then they're not Christian preachers. Are they? No, they're dividing the body of

Christ. Right. But on the, on the basis of theology that's the 180 degree opposite of the Christian message. Correct. I would, what is going on? I would say most Christians, especially dispensatialists, Zionist Christians, are Talmudic Jews wrapped in Christianity. Where does that mean? Okay. So where do we, where should we start? Should we start? Can I start in the Bible? Because I want to lean on you for here. So you have Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jacob becomes Israel, Israel has 12 sons.

“Those are the 12 patriarchs. Right. I, ironically, the word Jew. Do you know what it means?”

It comes from Judah of Judah. Right. So who do you love? 12. There's so many muddled terms here that it's the so ironic to me. But so the story goes, Moses leads them to the promise land. 40 years, or I'm sorry, he leads them to the promise land. They wander through the desert for 40 years. And Moses is about to lead them into the promise land. This is the land that in the Abrahamic Covenants, he's, and then the Mosaic laws, the Israelites are going to inherit this land. Right.

This is the, this is the story. So they're about to cross into the promise land. Moses does something silly first and he slaps a rock to get some water out and he doesn't give credit to God. He takes the credit instead. And so Jehovah says, hey, you're not going to enter the promise land. And I'm going to, I'm going to give you someone who will. It ends up being Joshua. So Joshua is the next book of the Bible after the Torah. Joshua leads them into the promise land. So in Joshua 21,

it says, all has come to pass. I actually want to read it because it's such a powerful line.

But this is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant and Joshua himself says it.

“And so at the Abrahamic Covenant, remember, is Israel deserves the land. Let's see where this is.”

Sorry, I'm a big note taker. Where's it on the back? Dang it. It's not in this copy. I've so many copies of things. So in Joshua 21, he says, I've given you peace in the land. No one's warning with you. God has given us everything all has come to pass, which means that covenant is fulfilled. Jehovah had given Israel a land. They settled in it. And so dispensationists will go, no, well, the Abrahamic Covenant are still in effect. Well, no, the very man that led them in

in the scripture says, all has come to pass. And then on the cross, Christ says, it is finished. And what the whole story of this book is, the old testament is a physical reality. And it's a shadow of a future spiritual settlement. And so the promise is says this repeatedly, repeatedly. So the promise land, God did fulfill his covenant with Abraham. He Joshua led them in. And he said, all has come to pass. And then what did they do? They didn't listen. They fell out.

They bread with, you know, other nations. And boom. Okay. That doesn't mean you get the covenant

physical nation and Romans is clear on this. And that if physical Israel becomes a spiritual nation,

it becomes the body of Christ. Jesus calls himself the temple. Yes. So Israel today is the body of Christ, Christ believing Christians. Christ following Christians is real the nation state. It's something else entirely. And there's a geopolitical argument to be had that, yes, like they deserve their country. They deserve the land. Sure. Right. That's a great conversation. Don't use this book, though, to justify current geopolitically. Exactly. I don't think the Bible

commands you to hate modern Israel. I don't think that. I don't hate modern Israel. But the claim

“that the Bible tells you you have to support BB so deranged that it's a threat to our faith.”

Correct. The physical promise land is fulfilled in a spiritual promise land. The physical

nation tribe of Israel becomes a spiritual nation that all are invited into. This is the story in this book. So the only reason why you would dip back into old covenant theology, dispensatialism, Zionism is for two things, power and control. Our God Christ is a unifying God. He's not a divisive God. He doesn't divide. He doesn't say you're different than you. No, all are my children. All come under me. And so the only reason why you divide is for power and control.

That is so wise. That is true. That is true. I mean, that's the story of history. And so when Christ said it is finished on the cross, he meant it. Anybody who dips back into

“old covenant theology, it is not finished on that cross. And that's what Talmud did do. Think.”

So how did it wind up becoming not just like this eccentric boutique view, non Christian view, but it became the dominant position of evangelical genomics. That are all think this. And I think it is changing. But for the past 40 years, it's been the dominant view. How did that happen? I think there's a very nefarious, I'm a column they right now, behind all of this. And I'm going to go down some called conspiracy theory rabbit holes or whatnot. I think the church

and especially the evangelical churches being used as a tool for a far greater agenda that most people can't see or fathom at the moment. I feel that so strongly. I can't see it either, but I feel that. It's so obvious. So what, what is that agenda? How could he said the quiet part out loud in your interview? He said, if they were to take the problem, you said, you position it, hey, well, why don't they just take all the land and he said,

well, maybe they should or I'm paraphrasing there. But whatever he said, that was the quiet part out loud. There's a group that wants to reclaim that promise land, the original, mild of the Euphrates

and rebuild the third temple. And there's only one thing that does in this book, and it

usher's in the Antichrist. So why in God's name, would anybody want that in God's name? That's right. Yeah. And I, I want to, I'm here to present this argument that right now the evangelical church, the most Christian leadership is being used for something far more nefarious than they understand and can fathom. They're all blind. The blindly, the blinded to a ditch and they're being walked into a ditch rapidly in the name of Jesus and in the name of this book. What, what does that mean ushering in the Antichrist?

Well, I get into my opinion, because I don't know, like, like, I personally think, does I where we want to go? I want you to tell the truth as you understand it. Okay. This is my trip. I think the Antichrist is, is power and ultimate power in authority. It's institutional power. When you look at the world, we, you know, we were a conquering world. People were moving out. Well, once you conquer the world, it's all conquered. Where do you go back to? We're not that smart.

“We go back to this. Well, we need to re-conquer the promise land. That's what I think is,”

there's a group that wants to retake that promise land. They do believe this book has significant power. And so they want to reclaim it. And they're using dispensationalist arguments to do that for the sake of controlling the world. For the sake of controlling the world. Yeah. I mean, that's just so clearly true. Yeah. That's so clearly true and agrees to me to say that I think the president of the United States is, may not fully understand

that theology or that argument, but clearly sees this warne-run as a way to achieve power over the

book is being weaponized to do it. So, deeply that there's a spiritual component to this. It's

not just like 100%. I think I do firmly believe there's a demonic component to this behind it all. And the church is, again, the church and its resources are being used to do it. That's kind of obliquely described in the New Testament, right, in the deception that Jesus promises will come at some point. The people you think are going to save you are actually working to destroy you? Well, Satan came his light and then he says, "My workers will come his light also."

Right. That's a very, very terrifying thing. So, if you're hoping to understand the nature of evil, which I think a lot of people are trying to understand, like, what does it look like? It's not just

the obvious monster under the bed stuff. No. True evil seems like salvation. True evil comes

as a half-truth. It comes looking like Christ, sounding like Christ, but it's not Christ. And how do we know, how do we know the difference between Christ and something that looks like

“Christ? You have to know His word, His scripture. One of the fruits. Love, joy, peace, exactly.”

Kindness, goodness, gentleness. It seems to me that people who are coming in the name of God in doing God's will, who are holy, throw off around them, kind of an umbrella of peace. And they don't leave chaos in their wake. Like we can judge the tree by its fruit. This is just my half-baked. Yeah. Thought of them, my living room, theology to myself, but you owe me running against you with deeper

knowledge that we know when someone's on the God's path, because that person is at peace,

that person is not seeking power and control over others, that person is not besotted by greed or lust or pride, obviously. And that person can admit fall, he's humble, and that His world, the people around him are at peace. They're not filled with right? I mean, if the message is, you're a good baker. I would hear you bake it well. No, I mean, that just all seems super, I understand everything on the most obvious level. So it's not rocket science, the book. What kind of feels that

way? It's not. Well, because we've, so if you claim you're acting in God's name and like speaking

“God's word, then the people around you should be at peace, right? The leader should have a good”

father has happy children. Correct. Right? Yeah. And a bad father has screwed up children. It's like kind of that simple. It all flows down from leadership. So the world around a true Christian leader should be a harmonious, peaceful world and the people should be thriving. Not by which I don't mean they're all getting rich. Yeah. They may be poor. Yeah. But they should be joyful. Well, 100%. And they should be content. Yes. I think contentment is such a big part of this book.

Tell me, foot flesh that out. I know that you're right, but I don't quite understand how. Contentment is, you know, there's this term called salone, but contentment is just being at peace in the position you're at. Right. And it wasn't until I had my daughter that I actually started to understand that because I realized, hey, this isn't about me. This isn't about Nathan anymore. This is about something so much more profound and beautiful. And when I had, when I had,

where I didn't have my daughter, when my mom had it, my daughter, her daughter, it's when I went back to this book. And that's where I started finding contentment in fulfillment. And you find fulfillment in Christ. He said, I have come to fulfill it all. I have fulfilled the old testament. I have fulfilled the old covenants, the mosaic laws. And everybody goes, oh, Nathan, that doesn't mean he abolished them. I didn't say he abolished them. I said, he fulfilled them into something greater, which is

Hebrews. It's what the book of Hebrews is all about. Where of necessity, there takes place the death of a priesthood. There's this is a change in covenant also. Christ ushered in an entirely new covenant. And that's right through him. It's through his teachings. He is the way the truth and the life

“and no one gets to Jehovah except through him. That's the only way. And I didn't understand it.”

I was raised in the church, my whole life. I didn't understand it until I had my daughter and I started reading the Bible cover to cover. Here's the problem, Tucker, only 13% of American Christians have ever read the book. How? How about I show you a trailer of a movie, a two and a half minute trailer. And you go, this is my favorite movie of all time done. You wouldn't do it. No, you wouldn't. You say, hey, I need to see the whole movie because the other, the other 90 minutes might be total crap.

Or it might be completely different from what the trailer portrays. Yeah. Or maybe Nathan's description to you of the movie is totally wrong. So a pastor's description of this book might be totally wrong. But it just seems obvious that if you're calling for violence against

being too autistic about this? No, no, you're on it. I voted for Trump. Oh, well, yeah, I can't paint for Trump. It was a lot. When I look back on it, I was so straight life. You think? Yeah.

“Yeah. And I want no wars. I believe in in Christ teaching peace and love and loving your neighbor.”

And we, the, and again, I'm going to go back to something positive because everybody always says

everything's negative about my conversations. But the generosity of Christians can transform our nation. We don't need that give more. We need to be better stewards, which would be the biggest light to the world. And right now, it's going down a really dark path, really quick. And in one breath on Easter Sunday, we have pastors claiming similarity from Trump to Christ in regards to the beatings and the lies. And in the next day, he's threatening to blow up power plants and bridges

hurting civilians, just saying fuck, like literally the most disgusting evil in a tweet that I could

I've ever read to totally agree from a president. And I'm like, wait, wait, but our Christian leaders

are still going to try to protect that and justify that. How dare they? Yeah, I agree. It's disgusting

“at all levels. And we were talking about spiritual war. I think there's a massive spiritual war”

going on in the White House right now. And it starts with the spiritual leaders that are standing next to an overtrompe. I think a lot of us were too cynical and approached this as theater, which it may have been intended to be, you know, get whatever money, hungry, dispensational, etc. You know, falling screwed up people who don't have real congregations and get them just to put the impromotor of the New Testament on what is clearly in violation of like basic Christian

principles. And, you know, let's get the evangelicals on board for this. I don't think that's the whole story. I think this is these are instruments of spiritual war, these people. This is not just theater, like this is real. 100% yeah. Well, like we live in a, so when we look, but let's go to the Old Testament again, you know, the Tabernacle, the Holy of Holies, and then the outer, the outer, the outer rooms, there was a veil that separates us from physical. When Christ died on that cross,

what happened to that veil? It was rent in half, tore down which meant the spiritual world and the physical world's combined. And hence the bridge from physical nation is real to spiritual nation. We are bridged now through something far greater than physical, nationality, genealogy, all that. But that also brings deadly things with it, which is there's a darkness in, in, in the spiritual realm as well. And we live in that right now. And again, the devil comes as light.

What better way to completely steer off good, generous, Christful and Christians than sell something that kind of looks like Christianity, creating institutions that have literally all the resources of the world, but we'll keep you chained to their views. Again, we're going to go back. Christianity is dangerous. The book of Acts, that church was dangerous to power and institution. Right now, the current institutional church structure is being used as a weapon for ill-gotten gain against

God's people, against God's people. We're being used, the evangelical church, most Christians are being used to to kill children, women. Yeah. In all in the name of this old covenant,

“Pete Hogsworth or whatever his name is, he's quoting that. Trump's quoting it. That's why you have to”

read this thing as one story. It's one complete story of redemption. And so if you're looking to Trump and looking to what we're doing and looking to the nation state of Israel and saying, oh, yeah, this is why that's justified instead of geopolitical reasoning. You are being dupped

and you are saying it is not finished on that cross. Amazing, amazing conversation. Thank you.

Yeah. I'll be thinking about it. Yeah, think about it. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just not just doing my thing, Ralph. You're speaking the truth. Yeah. I know that. Nathan, thank you very much. Yeah, thank you, Tucker.