Clippers Punishment, Rookie Extensions, and Mike Schur on Sports Fandom!

We go rapid fire on Brandon Miller, Kiotte, George, Chameyhawk, Junior Brandon Pajinsky, Anthony Black, Scoot Anderson, Balog Kulabali, many more, or some more.

Bryce Sensenbaw gets involved at the end. Just looking at the landscape, a Sartomson, another one, looking at the landscape in general for extensions for restricted free agency, jail and during, not in the class of 2023, but impacting a Sartomson's deal with Detroit, we do all of that. We talk about Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons is back in the NBA with the Sacramento Kings. What if anything should we expect, and we also do a little bit of follow-up on the Los Angeles Clippers, the verdict came down last week.

And we read the report a couple of times, follow-up questions, things to look forward to, things to look backward at, all with John Hollinger, and then Mike sure, yeah, that Mike sure from the office from Parks and Reg Brooklyn, 99, the good place, many more, he wrote a book with Joe Paznanski, one of the great sports winners of the last 25 years, called Big Fan, this is it, it's about sports fandom and baseball and love and fathers and sons and traveling and we get into all of that. So we talk about the basketball scene in the office, that's all coming up on the Zack Low Show.

Welcome to the Zack Low Show, and look who it is, the greatest to ever do it, taught to me with the Milwaukee Brewers jersey from a 1983 Sa Jung winner, I'm told, John Hollinger, you know what, John Hollinger, I am happy to throw. The Milwaukee Brewers once the nationally playoff starts, because the sure selling going to the Dodgers, the Phillies, or my arch National League Nemesis, the Braids, so go brew crew, it's been a long time.

Yeah, they got to the world series and I was 12.

It's been a long way. Age, age will be redacted. Okay, you wrote, we're going to do some extension stuff today, we had an Amen Thompson extension late last week.

“Jordan Hawkins from the same draft class just got traded, I think we're going to do about 45 minutes on that salary.”

Which somehow evolved, somehow evolved Todd Gibson being traded again. But I wanted to start with some clippers follow up, because that's the last episode we did was right after the clippers verdict was rendered, you wrote a column for the athletic. Following up on it and digging into the report, just like I did, are you game for a few follow up questions? Yeah, let's go. Follow up question number one, did they actually get off too easy?

“David Samson on Pablo Tories podcast, so I think the first person to really articulate this, it's something I've heard from a bunch of front office people on rival teams.”

All of course motivated by pure ethical, moral, non-competitive unbiased judgments, no, but all actually competitive with the clippers. And the basic just of it would be, and when horse talked about it too, is it really that bad? They're going to get these two picks back from Toronto once this deal goes through assuming it does. And that puts them, yes, still in a big hole, pick wise, but not in as big a hole as they otherwise could be. They are lucky as you wrote in your piece that this investigation dragged long enough for them to make that trade and for them to get keep in logger with the number five pick.

And you know, there are people around Lee that I'm sure you've heard too that say they should have to four 50s Raptors picks because it's the proverbial fruit from the poisonous tree from the very player that they.

“Engaged in this alleged corruption with, I guess it's no longer alleged, do you think they got off too easy?”

Not possibly, I mean, the lead could have still gone after their their swap with Philly, they could have gone after the extra pick that's coming from Indie, right?

So they still had some some fruit out there that they could have gone after their second round picks too.

So yeah, it was the same penalty as the Joe Smith in terms of the five first. But for what you would argue, I think was a worse crime. I, I get all of that. I expect from everything I've heard nobody knows for sure because we're all waiting on it. I expect the Raptors Clippers coitrade to go through as it was outlined with now that he adjustments with those picks from Toronto both of them and the swaps going to the clippers. So I get it on the other hand, I think there's like a larger.

Existential cost to all of this for the clippers that affects their fandom that affects their standing with free agents and agents around the league.

But it just feels like existential clipper to him is back like this is just the J.B. franchise a backwater franchise a franchise that's going to be playing with one hand tied behind its back from a front office perspective for the next, you know, whatever amount of years.

“A franchise that has won as I believe 15 winning seasons in a row.”

But boy does it not feel like that, even though this is the great house on era of Clippers basketball. So I get the fact that yes, they're net net down fewer picks than it appears.

There's even a chance his Michael McCann said on my pod that like to Joe Smith case, maybe they get a pickback if they're contrite from here on out. That's another wild card we'll see if, if and when it's Tuesday morning, we're taping this by the time this goes up. Maybe Steve Bomber is sued the NBA in which case they're not being contrite. But I do feel like just the gut punch to like imagine being a Clippers fan right now.

I just it just it's your it's just back to the same old same old like J.B. franchise.

And I mean the thing. People kind of forget a little bit the last CBA was 28 owners against the Clippers and Warriors. That's true. And to you know, they were basically going after Bomber and Laker, but that CBA in the aprons and everything. And and trying to rain them in that way. And part of the backstory of how we got there was yes, they were shooting money out of a fire hose, but there was lingering resentment from 2019.

And how they got quiet in the first place because there's always been suspicions that that was not above board.

“And obviously that's how it's played out.”

This isn't really a question, but in my immediate reactions of the pod to the to the the verdict, I focused on the 36 page walk tell report the implications for the Clippers. And I, although we're talking about it now, I didn't really explicitly come out and talk about how much like this just sucks for Clippers fans who are the ultimate losers in this. Their team has been kneecapped in a whole bunch of ways. Yeah, it'll be exciting to watch Darius Garland and Wagner and need her house or when he comes back and there's like cap space and stuff to hope for.

But, you know, built, it talks about this all the time. You have been you, the franchise, the owner have been essentially convicted in what passes is the NBA's court of law for misleading everybody and. There should, I, I, Bill is mentioned like they should reduce season ticket prices, they did there should be some recompense for fans who should not have to come and pay full price to watch a kneecapped team, but I don't know that that's just just not how business works. I mean, I guess that's up to the Clippers, but I don't know what else you're supposed to do for the fans other than invite them back to watch games at extremely discounted prices. I don't know what else you can do, they, it is true.

They ultimately bear the brunt of this because now you got to swallow hard and be like, all right, the collipage year is over it led to the only conference finals in franchise history and another wise disastrous outcome across the board and now we're left with this like Darius Garland's good.

“But branding or it was good, greedy dick is not that exciting, like what am I supposed to do?”

Yeah, you gave up 10 first and a two time MVP to make one trip to the Western conference finals, which we will talk about follow question number three and this is the point that I thought that I had not thought about that you raised in your column. I did think about what if they had won the title at any point during this stretch. Now they did not get close to closest they got was twenty twenty one when they lost to the sons in the conference finals with the value being the sort of highlight everybody remembers from that series.

But your point was like, what about the jazz and mavericks, the two teams that the Clippers beat in what ended up being their longest playoff on it, believe they won three playoff series in the entirety of the Paul George. And I literally heard two of them were in this year and as you pointed out, particularly for Utah, that was kind of a turning point series and the beginning of the end of the Donovan Mitchell, Rudy Gobert pairing. Now, I will say when you look back at the first round series against the mavericks, that was the one where the maves win the first two games in fadically in LA go up by like twenty five at the start of game three in Dallas under a rainstorm of Luca threes.

And it goes from feeling very much like is this already going to be the end of the Clippers, like are they going to blow this team up if they lose this series after coming off the moment. This woman very similar by the way, to like the twenty twelve heat going down three to the Boston like is this is this already over if they lose this series. And then Kui rescues them game six of I've lost my there is game six forty five points on eighteen of twenty five, one of the best games of ever seen anyone play facing elimination.

And then game seven kind of forgotten because they won fairly easily twenty eight ten and nine a near triple double with four steals on ten of fifteen shooting to bail out the Clippers in that series.

And they were down to Kui leads them back to win games three and four sixty five combined points on twenty three of forty three shooting sure just like classic peak.

“And then goes out and I although that is the beginning of the end for the Mitchell go bare jazz. They do lose the next two games without Kui Leonard playing.”

Parents man goes bananas in game six and then they have another year together where they suffer even more demoralizing loss to the mavericks in the first round with luka don't you're missing part of this series so that one feels less painful to me, but I like I like your idea of like is there a recompense for those teams I what what did you have in mind.

Do you know the NCA they they take away wins after the fact that the NBA doesn't really do that.

You know is there some level of cash compensation or something you know they're playoff shares or something that that mad squippers that was the best series that whole playoffs.

“And I mean the maps after that season like Rick Carlisle left and went to Indiana like what change what changes if Dallas makes the conference finals or finals that season.”

It's it's a really interesting kind of sliding doors moment and you know I didn't mention in the story, but what about compensation or whatever for like Toronto and the Lakers were the two finalists.

For quite and they didn't want to play play uncle Dennis's game and so they didn't get him maybe they wouldn't have gotten him anyway, but maybe they would have and their history would have been totally different. That leads to my next follow-up question. And before we get there colliding injured in that jazz series, I just I can't say this enough. I really like to cooperate for Toronto. It's going to make them a lot better. I'm super high on the raptor is going to season. I'm not going to spoil my older pigs. I'm doing that with Bill and house, but I really like that team. I really like how they're built and there's that that's all true.

“And I also just don't have any faith that colliding can play three or four playoff rounds ever again because you know what he hasn't since the bubble he hasn't appeared in a second round play out series.”

He's a finished a second round play out series since the bubble. And so yes, I'm high on the raptors. I don't know where you stand on the raptors, but they're being painted is like, oh there they could like win the east and get to the finals and like yes they could if colliding or does something he has not done in seven years. I'm not with you. I'm like smashing the over on Toronto on on wins, but as well as he played by April, they were in two very big important games against Portland that Kauai was not able to impact at anywhere near a Kauaiish level. And I just I just don't think he had it in his body at that point after basically playing all year.

And that what you said totally agree on what you said before this led to my next fall of a question. Why did the clippers bother to do any of this did they have to do any of this was Kauai Leonard ever signing with the Lakers was Kauai Leonard ever actually going back to Toronto. Remember he got traded to Toronto against his will the entire year everyone was like, well he's going to the west coast we all know he's going to the west coast then the raptors win and they fight for him and they were pissed off about how free agency transpired.

But I like was he ever going anywhere else and once he got to the clippers was he ever going anywhere else again like why I have not really been convinced like why did they have to do any of this. Yeah, because he so he signed a short contract with the clippers it was two years in a player option. So it would have been a free agent again in 21 I believe after he signed a 19 so I'm sure they felt some level of pressure from that but I sort of agree with you like how when he's already in LA which is the place he wanted to be you already got him PG the guy he wanted to play with how much of flight risk was he really going to be that you had to pay him under the table on top of what you were paying him as a max contract.

It's a scenario that if you read the CBA it's almost like they didn't even envision a scenario where somebody could be on a max deal and also getting paid under a table because there's a lot of language in there that. Oh, if the contract looks ridiculous and you know if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck like that but the scenario they almost envisioned was like somebody getting a minimum deal and then getting a bunch of shady endorsement money on the side to be like five times as much as their contract and this wasn't that at all.

This was a max deal that just had filler on top of it. And yeah, like that's separate from the point you made of like my whole like why did they bother doing this is even separate from the point you made about like why did they bother.

Follow up number six or wherever we are.

Why did they fight this from the beginning like what when did they know. All of these Gillian Zucker emails and communications were out there and these executives at other places were going to start talking to the investigators and why did they not as soon as they knew if they didn't know at any time.

“Immediately become conscious right and they have the the easiest fall person fall guy fall girl in the world in Gillian Zucker who they just could have been like all I think you're right.”

This was a rogue employee will take our medicine and the medicine would have been a lower dosage than they did up getting from the NBA that that's another question will and we'll see what how they behave from here on out but that's another question I've been thinking about. I think they were more convinced of their cover story and obviously they had no idea how much at or it seems likely they did not know what deep shit they were in because they would have traded all their first this season. That's what I remember I remember seeing that long be like okay you want to take all our first find here take take from what's left see we take through these scraps see what you can find you know and and they didn't do that at all they even did the dude Zuba's deal which brought it brought a pick back.

And so they clearly weren't aware of it I think they I think they were probably too believing in their little cover story about the introductions and then the other thing where I think their lawyers got clowned by the NBA's lawyers is they thought they were going to have another round of this in front of a system arbitrator.

And then when Qy made his deal with the league on the side it took the arbitrator out of play and Adam Silver became judging jury.

Yeah the league clearly ran an end around around the clippers in conjunction with the players union. It's funny I remember mentioning during the season like if I have this investigation over my head does game theory suggest that I should do what you're suggesting like trade all the picks where we're going to have to forfeit some of them anyway trade them now get players in the door get good players in the door or go get as many extra picks as we can in preparation for this. I'm not sure like they're all the theories that the clippers made the hard in deal and the Zuba's deal with an eye on the hammer coming down on them I've ever been convinced that's 100% sure even 50% sure because I think those deals are really are fine to very good like on basketball merits for a team who clearly concluded this core has run its course we're not going anywhere serious but it is it is an interesting sort of like which which path you go to follow up number seven which is not so much of a question.

I think I was guilty all along in underestimating the deandry Jordan prior offense part of this it's it's a penny pinching offense compared to what they're charged with now with collides like a 250 thousand dollar Lexus sponsorship that they facilitated for deandry Jordan who is not the status of coi Leonard not coveted around the league to the degree that coi was at the salary level he was a little DJ and I think this was 2015 was quite coveted.

“And the the small amount I did I just didn't think it's not that I discounted it I just did not think about it in connection with it at all and the NBA clearly did like this being a second offense was like clearly very important to the league.”

Absolutely if you and if you read it was clear in the in the report and then I guess I hadn't put together these were the same people that were there in 2015 also it's not like the management turned over. So it was like you knew like we went over this like you guys knew exactly what the rule was and exactly how you violated it so there could be no question about a misunderstanding or anything this was clearly against everything you had been told. All right last thing and it's not really a follow-up question is I read the report again last night because I really wanted to sort of parse the language to see like okay who said what to the investigators and where are they getting all this information.

“So I'm going to read you a couple of a few key passages that I think illuminates part of that passage number one this is page 18 of the report a former executive of one of these companies and these companies means.”

Dactronics, boingo or locked in not aspiration aspiration is not coming up in the report yet a former executive of one of those companies told investigators that the consulting agreement entered into by that executive company and the clippers was highly unusual for at least the following reasons one the company was not in the business of providing consulting services seems unusual seems like.

The services contemplated by the consulting agreement were not worth the money the clippers were paying for them and indeed were typically supplied by the company to clients for free.

That the team wanted to agree on a quote spend back arrangement whereby Dactronics would provide some amount of business to the clippers which Dactronics told investigators is not uncommon in its industry.

“Ms. Zucker thereafter suggested to a Dactronics senior executive that this spend back could be accomplished through an endorsement agreement between Dactronics and coli Leonard. So it's not exactly clear where they're getting that information from.”

Are they seeing emails from Gillian Zucker either on the receiving end by somewhat at Dactronics or from her own inbox or is someone for Dactronics anonymously talking to the to the investigators that's a little bit unclear but clearly one of those things has to be true. Okay, I'm going to continue later in May 2020 and a call with a senior executive of Dactronics so there's first number one. A senior clippers executive first number two presumably not Gillian Zucker or Lawrence Frank or Steve Bommers since it's an unnamed person a senior executive Dactronics and a senior clippers executive specified the precise financial terms that the clippers expected Dactronics to provide to Mr. Leonard in the endorsement agreement.

Three million per year for two years that appears to maybe be an anonymous clippers executive or former executive talking to the investigators or could be in the Dactronics executive somebody right anything striking you from this that's interesting so far.

“Yeah, I mean the the identity of the unidentified clippers executive because only three clippers executives were punished right and and no former executives or anything if no other names have come out.”

Well, that same that same clippers executive is about to come up again and February of 2021 before the end of the first year of the Dactronics Leonard agreement.

The same senior clippers executive approach Dactronics again, this time the clippers executive told Dactronics that because the team had decided to increase the amount it would spend on the scoreboard. I think that's one of the major things that we have to do is we have to make sure that the three clippers under the Dactronics should correspondingly increase the amount it would pay to Leonard and Dactronics does that so again those could be emails that they find from Dactronics people who a co-op Dactronics cooperated they bend over backwards to cooperate with the investigation.

Not and locked in insurance did not at all cooperate, which is interesting I never heard of locked in insurance or it could be that same senior clippers executive talks to the investigators proactively or corroborates those emails, but that that's the sort of paper trail there. And I think I can leave it at there. Oh, I just did like this the text message from Joe Sanberg about the I don't want to belabor it, but the clippers pay aspiration to shit on a money to do sustainability stuff for the forum and that should ton of money happens to exactly match the money that aspirations being co-i Leonard and because the forum deal is taking too long to finalize I went over this last week Joe Sanberg starts throwing bombs and he says, do you understand how serious this is this is the ball game.

And if this isn't fixed the clippers bomber Sanberg aspiration relationship is being burned to the ground and so is the clippers co-i relationship. And I just thought of perhaps it's prasses because I have Mike sure coming on the fight after you I just thought of one of my favorite lines ever in the office and in comedy television is when Dwight Schroed says, then we burn you to go to the ground.

“I think it's just going to be interesting to see those dots connect as we learn more and more about who actually talked to didn't talk and.”

How evasive Gillian Zucker was, but that's where we are the clippers any parting thoughts before we talk about basketball. I think everyone was worried that Adam was going to go soft on bomber and he did not. And I think there's a lot of relief throughout the league about this.

Very much so all right. Let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about some basketball players who play for basketball teams who have not been docked multiple first round picks.

The next big coming drama in the NBA is contract extension season. There are a lot of veterans who have contracts that are extendable and various timetables starting, you know, Steph Curry was just a couple weeks ago and on and on there's tons of them.

But also the class of 2023 the first round draft class of 2023 are now all of for extensions going into their fourth season.

Victor Webbingama at the top his deal is done.

“Number four pick, Amen Thompson his deal is done.”

Five years to $208 million with the use of rockets we will come back to that.

The following players have borderline zero chance to definitely zero chance from the 30 person first round of 2023 it's signing an extension. Jaris Walker Taylor Hendrix, jet Howard, Grady Dick, Jordan Hawkins who was traded today, Colby Buffkin, Jalen Hood, Shafino, member him. Cam Whitmore waved again this week, Noah Clownie, Dereak Whitehead, Chris Murray, Olmax, Prosper, Marcus Sasser, Ben Shepherd, Nick Smith, Junior, Julian Strother, Colby Brown. Literally half the first round at least is either out of the league or no shot that they're signing a contract extension.

It's a really like every draft as it's troughs of unproductivety. This is a pretty stark one. We're talking picks that start at eight with Jaris Walker. Let's start with Amen Thompson. Five years to $208 million.

My first reaction was, it's a good deal.

I've always been high on Amen Thompson.

I didn't really get the idea that last year was like a disappointing year on his growth curve, which was a popular narrative. Some of it, the three points shot didn't come around. Defense probably ticked from defensive player of the year candidate to first to second team all defense. Big deal, he's one of the best defenders in the league. You know, it's 20 to 22% of the cap, which is really like shocking in terms of like how high the cap is now that a 40 plus million dollar deal.

It's only that amount. Him and Alperon Shengun is like the core young guys on the team combined to only make up 40% ish of the cap for the entirety of their contracts. That's a pretty good deal. Like the jazz on the other hand, who have counted George, they have about 60% of their cap tied up into their two highest pay players. Larry Markin and Jerry and Jackson Jr.

You talk to him, Jabari Smith Jr. And Tari Eason, that's about 60 to 65% of the cap in four young players. Those guys make a lot less money. So my first reaction was, all makes sense. I'm super high in I'm in Thompson.

18 points a game despite a complete lack of a jumper, blah, blah, blah rebounding playmaking, etc.

“My second reaction was, what is the last time, if ever?”

And this is a great question for you, that a kind of a defensive specialist who's not a center got paid anywhere near this amount of money. And I realize calling on Thompson to defensive specialist is not fair. Once again, he average 18 points, like five or six or seven assists, like whatever it was last year. Like he's a productive offensive player. But it's a question at least worth noodling about if your initial reaction is this is a totally fair deal for the rockets.

Like I do think offensively he's got to improve to live up to this deal. And I was trying to think of comps and there's not there's really like he's kind of dream on greening in that he has to figure out a way to be a plus offensive player. Probably with the ball a little bit more in the style of dream on green and dream on green is like an all time genius pass or connector.

I'm in Thompson's probably not going to get to that point, but they do if the jumper never comes.

He's got to unlock a little bit more offensively for this deal to pay off because I was trying to think like, non center defense first guys just don't get paid this amount of money, but I still like to deal. Zack Tony Allen never made more than the mid level exception. Oh, there you go. We speak from experience.

And it's a thing I worry about with this. I'm in deal a little bit is that. So his athleticism is that it's peak right now and it's going to start, you know, going down is a skill level going to come up in order to offset that.

“And if not, are you paying $40 million for a guy that you have to like scheme around and the playoffs and kind of mix in and you know, you might even have to take him out sometimes like that that's the part that would worry me.”

You know, both him and his twin brother and Detroit, I think it's the same thing. And how high on the pay scale are you willing to go for that. I mean, I do think he would have had like if he had gotten a restricted for agency he would have had suitors and offer sheets would ever for sure. So I think, you know, Houston right like they didn't just hand the max out, which I mean we've seen teams do that like just sort of automaxing any traffic they hit on, which is also the wrong move. And they showed discipline with Shengun, you know, last time they went went through this.

I still wondered if it was like a little higher. I actually, I thought he was because I sort of we were going to do this episode earlier and then all the pressure happened.

Yeah, it's interesting because to be clear, like I still like to deal for Houston, I'm a believer and I'm in Thompson, but I'm also not a believer in his jump shot.

“That leaves me with the fact that yeah, like you are going to have to figure out ways to make him effective offensively in the playoffs when people are not going to guard him.”

Because you also have a center whose game is mostly bound to the pain now of Shengun becomes a real three-point shooting threat and not a kind of token sometimes. That's a game changer, but similar to Asar and Jalen Durin, who I guess will resound with the distance at the top point, it's it's just going to be they're going to be games in the playoffs where it's kind of tough sledding. And you did Raymon comparison comes up again because that's a guy who made it work in the playoffs with Andrew Bogad and Kavon Looney and like true centers, but also sometimes played center and even when he was playing with the true center.

Also is playing with the two greatest shooters in the history of basketball, so it's just apples to broccoli as comparison, but I would still do the deal. Before we get to the other rookie guys, we should we do have to mention Ben Simmons speaking of defense first guys with shooting issues is back in the NBA with the Sacramento Kings on a one year minimum deal. I mean, it's it's it is like he was a professional fisherman for a while, so like it is just objectively kind of a funny thing to talk about, but it would be a nice story if Ben Simmons could get back to anything like what he used to be, which was it all in the NBA player once in and all star multiple times.

And it's like, why not the Kings point guards are currently Darious Aqf. Yeah, and Darious Aqf. So I see no harm, no foul in this for a team that's not going anywhere.

The thing that I'll like never the back issues, the health, all that stuff.

I said this the last time Ben Simmons was in the league when he signed with the winning the Clippers picked him up and everyone was excited as long as he's afraid to get fouled, I just don't really care about anything else.

“I think in terms of like his him, he won't be able to be an impact basketball player if he plays with a fear of going to the free throw line.”

Yeah, yeah, and you know, there's always been the questions like just how much does he like basketball in general. You know, maybe is your way really ignited his passion will see I would I will say for the kid it's easy to dunk on the Kings because they're the Kings, but they needed another person who could handle the ball.

Bring in Simmons with the second unit. Now, Monk is off the ball now also if you look at their rotation like they don't have to play Alex Caraband who was horrendous in summer league.

So I do think he like in terms of their roster he checks some boxes that I think he wouldn't have for some other teams. So the fit is actually pretty good if he can if he has anything in the tank. All right, let's go back to the class of 2023.

“I think the most interesting guys are all the guards kind of in the middle to a lower first round. There's four in particular that I want to group together.”

Keyante George case and Wallace Anthony Black and Brandon Paginski. Now I I perhaps two quickly put keyante George and kind of a different bucket than the other three, which is not to say he's going to end up signing a deal that's like way richer than case and Wallace is dealing or whatever ends up being the case. But 24 point six assists a game he just reached a level of offensive productivity that these other guys haven't reached yet. And yeah, the jazz again have 60% of their cap tied up into two guys. So if you tie up another 25% of it in keyante George.

Plus you have Darren Peterson who's a pretty huge piece like chunk of salary as the number two pick it gets tight pretty fast. You know there were reports three four months ago that the door was like closed on a keyante George extension with Utah. I never believed that was the case doors don't close that early. I think the two sides will talk if they haven't started talking yet. I don't know what a fair, but I'd be interested in sort of what your system values keyante has obviously the jazz aren't going to give them the max otherwise the deal would be done. And so it's it's he's got to accept you know we'll see if he accepts something like is is 30 plus a year to high for him. I think that's like probably where the jazz would maybe think about going.

So my system has him rated way lower than that and I'd be a little concerned about committing to him if I were Utah given where the rest of their payroll is and Peterson's presence and I'm just a little concerned. He's like how good is he really I guess like I'm still I'm still not completely sold that he's you know that he's a top three guy and a good team. So how far do you want to go for that?

There's a general like the way this restricted for agency is played out and you know cap space always looks bigger now than an ends up being once we get to the next fiscal off season because teams signed extensions and all that.

You know and and the apron panic that's gone around the league there's a general like.

Could be a tough market next summer for restricted for agents or from the team perspective like we're happy to take this to restricted for agency if we don't get the kind of deal we want.

“I think I think I think you have to be from the team side I think that the whole point of committing early is to give yourself a little bit of some some extra big for committing that early and given the player some security and if you can't.”

If you can't get that you might be better off waiting waiting until for agency especially for when you get below kind of the all start here.

I don't know what's going to happen here with can't they I'm going to make predictions as we get closer to training camp is like yes or no predictions the next three.

Case in Wallace Anthony black and Brandon Pajemsky is a really interesting trio to me. I texted like 10 or 15 front office guys around the league just rank those three and give me ball park salaries that you think would be fair for most of them. It probably won't surprise you the case in Wallace was universally the number one rated player of these three by rival front office people I never I get that text anyone with these teams I didn't want to put them in that position.

And generally his like guesses for his average annual salary or what would be fair ranged from 25 on the low end to like 33 on the high end.

Anthony black and Pajemsky it was like 60 40 with black ranked ahead of Pajemsky but some people had pods ahead of black and their fair salaries according to this grouping of people were well below. Case in Wallace somewhere between a little above the mid-level exception like 16 17 18 to like 24 on the high end. Do you agree with that framing.

“I do agree with that framing yes and I think it's very interesting in all three cases because of the teams positions with the salary cap and luxury tax too that there's there's more going on here than just the contract with this player.”

All right, like sell me like case it's just so interesting because their team context are so different particularly case in Wallace and Anthony black I get the case in Wallace like his defenses much more proven and particularly on the biggest stage than Anthony blacks and Brandon Pajemsky's. Thank you's regarded as a better three point shooter than Anthony black and has been by percentage I think for their careers yeah see their career numbers here career case in Wallace 37% Anthony black 34% now that gap actually kind of shrunk last year Anthony black was 33% on higher volume than case in Wallace actually.

In case in Wallace was 35% on lower volume than Anthony black Anthony black drives more he gets to line a lot more pull up threes so off the dribble threes Anthony black 35 of one 11 case in Wallace only took 47 the entire year. And so there's like a dynamism to Anthony black's game I think that case in Wallace hasn't quite had to show but he hasn't had to show it because he plays with shake, ill just Alexander a two time MVP so I think there's an assumption that there's more there than the 13% you situate or whatever and the piddling number of free throws and assist would suggest but I do think.

“And and his threes I think are a little bit more above the break than Anthony blacks and a little less open than Anthony blacks Anthony black has given threes it is not quite the same but I do think there's a world in which.”

Anthony black is being a little undervalued because he also hasn't been as available like he's just hasn't played nearly as many games let me bring up the career numbers he has played. Two hundred and eleven games that case in Wallace played two twenty seven as it was worse last year. No yeah and and these also started fewer games. There's a world where Anthony black's being a little undervalued I think he's only twenty two if the jumper comes along I could see it kind of an interesting player there but.

The consensus is that cases defense is just so good and his shooting is just more proven than Anthony black's was I get but. I guess I guess you agree with that and and the thunder just going to I mean clearly he's going to start this year with Lou Dort gone and and have a lot more opportunities with Joe gone and Wiggins gone I guess they're just going to pay him that amount of money. If you're the thunder given how their cap is set up would you do would you offer him say.

The thunder are going to be crazy expensive it's why they had to get under the second of April this year they have like a two year run of blasting through the second apron and shooting money out of out the fire I was ahead of them basically and then on the tail end of that they got a. Fix everything and hope some of these other drafts except by then basically so I'm wondering if you can offer something like that to case and Wallace that says we're going to underpay you for these next two years but then you have your wings early and you can hit the market is a twenty five year old.

Twenty five year old and get all kinds of cash at that point whether it's from us or somebody else and is is that a deal that that the thunder would. Would consider and started is just to manage these next two years where it's going to be really hard for them. I mean they've done shorter deals with guys who are not in the big three previously. My intel suggests the case and Wallace would and should turn that down and say if that's fine I'll go under a street and free agency. What do you think of Anthony black are the words that that wordy that he's.

Ten to twelve million dollars per year worse than case and Wallace.

The issue you run into here is not just how good is Anthony black but how good is Anthony black on the Orlando magic. There basically his strengths are mirrored several other places on that team and his weakness is mirrored everywhere that team right it's not just that he's a below average shooter it's that everybody is a below average shooter right so he acts exacerbates an already existing problem. With their their money is so tied up and they're top four guys that paying anyone else immediately raises problems for the magic as well so you can say.

Even as a six man on this thing yeah Anthony blacks probably worth twenty or twenty five million or whatever I just don't know that Orlando can.

“Commit to that the way their payroll is set up right now or the only way they can commit to as if they trade one of these other guys and they're big four.”

And that's the thing you mentioned twenty to twenty five million and connected to the thing I said about restricted free agency being on kind of players right now is like.

Those twenty to twenty five million deals they're they're just so interesting how they evolve right like a you kind of need. A deal in that range to make any kind of big trade and like you can't just have all max and all minimums it's hard to make trades. When they happen you're kind of like, oh, make sense rising young player twenty to twenty five million dollars and then in a blink Christian Browns deal is underwater shade and sharp steel is underwater Malik monks deal is underwater. Terence man's deal way below this went like on to to like into the abyss with James Cameron submarine vehicles.

Like it they flip they become hard to trade really really fast and I don't think that one case in Wallace but an Anthony black deal at that level and he's a six man is minutes go down and he gets injured all of a sudden it'll look like a bad deal. To your point about the magic like they maybe my math is wrong or my projections are not right. They just can't pay all of these guys much longer right like if they pay Anthony black they can't play they can't pay they're starting their core four guys. Plus Anthony black plus window card engineers not super cheap like at some point something is going to have to give with this roster and maybe it starts right now with Anthony black maybe not getting an extension I don't know.

“That that that to me seems like you at least are able to kick the can down the road for one more year and see what they have with the new coach and then finally I think.”

I think it's good they made the first hard decision when they moved on from from for mows and now if it doesn't work with these four with a different coach.

I think they have to make harder decisions about okay just it really makes sense for us to pay over four to a million for France and Palo.

And so I think that's the thing that's going to be a little bit more than that. Who doesn't play as much as I do by at least a little bit makes X amount of money I'm not taking a dime less than that in which case I bet there would be no deal. I think it's going to be a little bit more than that I think it's going to be a little bit more than that I think that's going to be a little bit more than that.

“I think it's going to be a little bit more than that I think it's going to be a little bit more than that I think it's going to be a little bit more than that I think it's going to be a little bit more than that.”

I think it's a pretty good player but they are in an interesting situation where they're set up to have all this cap space his cap hold is like 17 million I think which is right around the middle of the exception.

Personally like I'm going to take yoke at his word until something else proves otherwise but I think that's an inch I think he's a good player I don't know what is your system your board system have him at. Yeah so I have me as a 25 million dollar player so yeah totally agree with you and it comes down to strategy for gold and state I don't think he's quite good enough and quite kind of sexy enough is an archetype where you're going to get into bidding wars and stuff. So I do think gold state might be able to buy their time here and say we'll do the cap hold if we can't get to a deal we really like.

But another interesting case because I do think long term like gold state needs to hang on to them they're like who else do they have in their pipeline.

So we're going to have the best source of leverage deserves and everybody build up he who's one of the great the the most powerful agents in the NBA that'll be interesting one.

All right let's go to a group of four guys I have in the prove it camp. Most of his career for the wizards and guys who are top 10 picks on bad teams who are full time starters and have the kind of defensive potential he has 10 to walk into their crappy teams for an office and be like hey I actually get all the money right like I've kind of the guy here. But all of a sudden tray youngs in town Anthony Davis is in town AJ debances in town Kishan George is really good and probably has supplanted you as a starter like block all the body I don't think open training camp as a starter next season for the wizards and is a career.

What 31% shooter on mostly wide open threes with like an off the bounce attacking close outs game that sometimes flashes and sometimes goes dormant for quite a long time because it's a hard it's hard to attack off the dribble when you catch the ball and a defender is 15 feet in front of you being like hey I'm just here waiting for you like you can shoot or drive right into me.

“I don't think that there are any meaningful discussions have really happened I think they're going to wait till camp but that's a prove it one to me hard pass.”

Okay, I just don't see any point in extending him right now.

Yeah, unless he takes a cheap deal right which why we why we do that. I mean, yeah, I look he's what is he 2021 years old he is 22 barely 22 and 44 days so yeah, I mean, I don't disagree. But middleman maybe I disagree but I just hope like no need for Derek lively it's been a while and when it's been a while and there are continued questions about your lower body and your health. And continued optimism among your representation that like the guy who played a critical role in your finals run is still in there and still could develop into a whale of a player on both ends of the floor.

It feels like a recipe for yeah well just everyone will just buy our time but I that I was so excited about Derek lively before the injuries and the foot stuff really really hit him.

“I think he could be a really good player but that feels like a prove it one to me.”

I would if I could if I could get him below the mid level I might take the plunge on that. I mean, if I'd be you know you'd have the exit at six or whatever it is we're you know with the injury protections and whatnot you might not might not be full of guaranteed but. Yeah, if I could get like it's you know three year deal it's something that kind of money yeah. I think really hard about that I'd be much more excited about that than I would be about doing Naji Marshall at three for 52 let's put it that way.

“I I agree with you like if I had confidence in his health like fun inside your emotions and I have all the records there and I know what I know and I'm confident in it I think that that level of the deal is it like I would do that for sure.”

I don't know their rich ball and clutch are doing that. That said for as often as rich ball gets a reputation replying hardball and taking things to the end with his restricted free agents. He's also done some deals shade and sharp comes to mind where it's like hey man I know you think you're like this level of player but this is eighty million dollars or ninety million dollars being thrown at you with like no track record of real. And you can be a production like you should take that and he's done you can chart his deals and everyone focuses on the negotiations that go really hard and really for like months and months there are other deals like that speaking of clutch I believe they also represent scoot Henderson the number three pick in in this draft.

No idea John no idea he had a very interesting year last year when he was moved into more of like a hybrid off ball player come a little really strong games against San Antonio and the playoffs the jumper seems to have come along. The rim finishing and turnovers not quite as much the defense not nearly up to expectations but there's something in there there's something in there and I don't know if the players are going to pay right now to see what it is but he's an interesting candidate.

And and you have to money camera there too if you consider him a guard so there's just a lot of guys there already.

“Maybe they're not all that are as long term as as scoot is but. He hasn't really shown himself to be starting level quality so.”

Good you know three years in mid level money like that. I can't imagine going any higher than that if on if on Portland and I don't know if that's that's the thing that he's willing to accept right now. And if I'm his agents. I probably am not taking that only because sharps already hurt. Moran is a lock to miss a certain amount of games damn is coming off in a killies injury. Drew is aging seems like a perhaps a trade candidate I don't know that I don't think they want to trade them they love drew everybody loves drew but.

Yeah my point is like it feels like there are a lot of minutes there to be had for scoot if he they're confident in his health and so yeah. By the way Brandon Miller the number two pick is a very interesting one I'm saving that for a separate episode because I'm so interested in him and his place in Charlotte but you have any quick thought you want to get off on Brandon Miller. Yeah he's a different case to me because big wings who can shoot in handle.

There's just there's always a place for them on the floor so you you you don't worry as much about paying a guy like that starter money because there's no fit questions at all like he's going to fit.

No matter what what the other fair four players are he's he's going to fit like that's not the concern so maybe he's not in all stars you don't want to pay him like an all star but there's a level in there. Where a contract totally makes sense you know we talk about these guys making 30 or whatever or maybe even a little more than that but like he's he's right in that window. Yeah I did to me extending him as a is a no brainer for Charlotte.

“Yeah, I mean the max for him at 25% let's pretend no escalators or anything are in it I believe starts at like 43 a year 44 a year something like that.”

You know Charlotte strikes me as a front office in ownership group that's not just going to hand you the max that's going to negotiate a little bit but yeah if he came in somewhere near Amen Thompson. Or even a little bit higher I wouldn't be surprised and like you like I'm a big time believer in Brandon Miller and I keep saying this all the love con got. All the love the mellow got including for me their surge last season coincided precisely when Brandon Miller became healthy and available for their team.

Hi may Hawk is junior just got to the bucks totally unclear what his role on team is going to be they're just a mess of players with weird overlapping skill sets actually think there's even a chance they start. For generalize Hawk as to a bench roll kind of by default that feels like a hey we're just getting to know you let's wait and see we're not really afraid of you know restricted free agent stuff really hurting us down the line let's wait and see but maybe I don't know a six man in the year candidate whatever.

Last year I he was my pick for six man in a year on the fan. How does he look outside that heat weird no pick and roll no the real system that he thrived in last year feels like a way and see to me. If you're the box can you give him Gary Trent money. Oh boy I'm so glad you brought that up. We all kind of that that's kind of been like you know a clippers thing just happened and blah blah blah I mean what in the world man I've already talked about it, but that's like. The most obvious uh-huh machinery. Yeah, I don't even know if that's the right word, but like as you know everybody's been talking about the Gary I first started hearing about it when I was on my way to the combine and may like hey if you heard about this Gary Trent contract that's coming down the pike like it's been up and that's here.

Three years no four years four million I mean look it's nine percent of the cap big whip but like yo I'm okay good luck trading that deal.

Yeah and obviously I mean the the inside basketball on this for those who don't know they signed Gary Trent to a one year minimum where it when it look like he might be getting more than that.

“And then he has the I think he was early bird now so that they could pay him more this year so that's where the fishiness of this whole fuel comes in and addition to it being just a horrible contract that Milwaukee's books now.”

It's our Thompson is the last guy that we haven't really talked about yet and I haven't talked about him in part because I don't even think they can start with him until they finish the jail and during extension which is still the new contract rather just still going on.

Also like a coordinate to make man's reporting which is from what I've heard accurate and actually maybe even a little bit the gap he talked about between two sides to the gap might even be smaller than that.

“That just feels like okay really like we're all then we're pretty close we'll get it done.”

It also feels like to kind of deal with whatever frustration might exist now as soon as pen is put the paper and jail and during begins depositing checks that will eventually equal like 200 million dollars into his checking account. I think everyone's going to be fine and move on with life and then then a sard Thompson's deal comes down the pike and I expected to kind of be like this where the we're trading and landing goes to a sard Thompson and his agents and is like hey you know we're trying to build a team here.

Cade makes x during makes x defensively your A plus plus plus plus offensively like your brother it's just a little bit walkie at times but we believe in your playmaking.

You know there was all this talk the beginning of last year we're going to give him the ball more and see what he can do that didn't really come to fruition right that's that that that's going to be a very interesting one I don't what what is your system say on him.

“Yeah I mean it's it's kind of it's a little bit like it's a lighter case of his brother right so my system isn't quite as bullish on a star I think there's.”

There's less there as you say as an on ball player but again elite defender transition player can you pay that guy 30 a year absolutely if you're paying that guy 40 a year are you worried does it compromise you in other ways yeah I think you start getting into that so. I think a men's deal actually sets a little bit of a high bar for a star and his value like when I wrote this out I was like yeah 165 for a star and. I don't know I might be on the low end of that now. I think I do that if I'm the pistons like 5165 150 something like 30 a year because the offensive questions are real and again during is also just 22 years old developing offensively maybe may have turned 23 by now.

And so like their development will rise together and even so I don't see either one of them becoming like a quality shooter so you're going to the development is going to have to be. How do we coexist as passers cutters rebounders screeners you know how do we put together more tic tac toe kind of sequences and then kill people on the glass and kill people on defense that's the formula and they'll grow together in that sense and that that. 30 35 it sounds like depending on your perspective from a search perspective it probably sounds below market from casual fans perspective it probably sounds like holy shit that amount of money for a guy who average whatever points again.

I think it's fair and again like. It's a hundred and sixty five million dollars. Like you can. Egos get involved and like where am I on the salary hierarchy gets involved, but it's still a crap ton of money. Yeah and feels like fair ish to me, but again until they get done with during and see what his number actually is I don't I don't think that they can even start to do this.

I agree with you 100% there you got to get during the finish line first.

John Hollinger anybody anything we didn't cover that you were dying to talk about self nerdy extension guy, Bryce sensible yes.

“I've always liked Bryce here's the thing about right I think I looked up his stats because I looked up Cody Williams stats for like the last 20 games of the season because he had like a little bump and I was like a minute soda it's a nice fire.”

But Bryce, since my average 24 points again for like a month and a half and yeah I remember some of those games and they were you know pretty tank tastic the deal will get on the court and score. Now sometimes he's going to score in ways that are going to drive will hardy to kick a hole in the score stable like six or 50 will take 15 shots and five minutes. The defense and playmaking may not be where they want it to be but there is like something there so if would you go to him like where's your like I do this if I were you talk given the rest of my cap questions.

Is it 12 million is it below the middle level.

If I could do three for 30 three for 33 something like that that that's probably where I'm happy. He's 38% career on threes yeah he can shoot man he doesn't really pass and he doesn't really play enough defense but I don't see any reason why at least. He's he's not he's not a non pass or who doesn't see the passes like he'll throw some pass or like oh yeah he gets the basic reach he's got to make he just likes to shoot defensively I'm not sure what's there but I really like that's a good number and I would do that.

I haven't even looked up who his agent is but that's that I'm glad you I'm glad you brought him up. All right John Hollinger the best ever do what's coming up for you at the athletic let's last week you wrote about the clippers you wrote a couple of these you contribute to another piece about the clippers you're contributing across the board at the athletic but you have your own column what are we writing about this week.

I love those columns I read the over under one religious leave because I want to see I at the same time I'm prepping for the big over under podcast that I'm going to do with Bill and Joe House.

And so I have my own predictions but I don't have the formulas behind them that you do so when yours come out I'm like let's see where we drive and where we don't drive.

“Last year we were aligned on a couple of key teams all of which went wrong I believe we were aligned on Boston under which was not good.”

We might have been aligned on Indiana under I was under on Indiana which so that worked and I believe we were heavy on golden state over which also which also failed badly but it made me feel better that someone else was seeing.

So it's always it's always a great read and you don't you predict like every playoff round to like don't you do a bracket and or is that something you do closer to the playoffs.

So I don't do that until the playoffs start. Yeah. And Hollinger and Duncan weekly podcast with the great Nate Duncan always one of my Peloton listens if I'm not doing my Peloton movie Zack's Peloton movie update the last one I did was the French connection which I had never seen before eight plus love the French connection big black hole on my list so that's my that's my movie update John Hollinger. The brew crew. I'm almost let's go this year. Zack it's it's a great story and they're a really fun team to watch they're not fun to play against from a met's perspective but they will be they can be my official national team once a playoff start I'll see you soon bud.

All right, thanks.

“All right, it's time to welcome in a special guest Mike sure you know him from the office parks and recreation the good place we did a whole podcast.”

Thank you Jen Statski about the good place back in the day Brooklyn 9 9 one of my favorite under appreciated shows shout out captain Raymond hold one of my favorite characters of all time and you are the author of this book right here co author with the legendary Joe Paznanski big fan two friends eighty two thousand four to ninety miles and the wild wild wonderful sports we love you are part Mike sure of Zach one on vacation and read some books month.

I'm great thank you for having me.

This is a absolutely delightful meditation on fandom a subject that has been newly close to my heart as a reinvigorated once insane then lapsed now kind of a different sort of insane met's fan along with my clinically insane daughter.

“It's a beautiful book in which you guys try to figure out sort of why do we all do this what what choices do we make in life.”

Which choices as fans are binding why do we love these silly things that we can't control why do they continue to linger in our life when other childhood pursuits vanish away with time and you guys went to all sorts of different sporting events on ball events all around the world trying to talk to fans about why do you do this. You go to the world darts championship you go to a midnight baseball game in Alaska so I'll start there what's what's the best single thing you went to for this book. Well some of it we you know really carefully planned like the midnight sun baseball game is this like semi pro baseball game they play at midnight in Alaska on the summer solstice when the sun never goes down so they play at baseball game at midnight with no lights which is really beautiful and kind of special.

We had a really kind of magical night there just experiencing this very strange event but some of it was unplanned so it was just like let's just go see what this thing is about I went to see I went to the Olympics in Paris and ended up seeing USA Serbia which I for my money I don't think I'll ever see a better basketball game in my life a more exciting basketball game. A more sort of like meaningful and moving basketball game because it's LeBron and KD and you know booker and and beat and all these guys sort of and stuff at the end towards the end of their careers having this moment.

Where they all were playing for the same thing for the first time in a meaningful way and whether it was one of those events where I didn't know I was about to see the greatest basketball game of all time. I went to see Wemby and his rookie year because I just had to see him play live. Those were in a weird way those were the more meaningful moments than the ones we planned like the world darts championship or.

The unexpected moments were the more were the more meaningful ones to me because that to me is the essence of fandom like one of the reasons we do this is you just never know what you're going to see when you attend an event and.

“I you know in my now whatever 40 plus years of fandom of a bunch of different sports.”

My favorite games I've ever seen are the ones where something came out of the blue and I just was like oh my god I'm so glad I was here you know that that is the most meaningful fan experience to me.

What's an example of that that isn't in the book. I mean when I was living in Boston or actually right after I moved to New York I went down to Fenway I'm a red sex fan to see a red sex game and before the game there was a message on the. The scoreboard that said happy birthday no more Garcia parah. And I was like oh my god it's no Mars birthday was in late July and then he hit three home runs in the game and the crowd was just like losing its mind it was like every time he came up it was like that we're just seeing something special in interesting.

You know that the one that I do write about in the book is I went to see a red sex Dodgers game at Dodgers Stadium with a bunch of red sex fans and it was the game or show Hey Otani hit a 483 foot home run to write center and he hit like what he hit the ball we were sort of behind home played off to the first base side and so we had a perfect view of the ball.

I'm going supersonic and entering the ionosphere and he like the ball landed over the the designed the sort of old sixties deco designed outfield.

I don't even want to call it to a station it's like a the way the stadium is built. I've been to hundreds of Dodgers games I've never seen a ball hit there in batting practice like it to see someone do something like that in live action in a game even though it was the team I was not rooting for was still like. I'm so glad I saw that you know I saw Freddy Freeman's grand slam and game one of the series.

“Yeah and and I I just giggled I just I remember just giggling and laughing I mean first of all because the Yankees lost always great.”

But also like I just was like oh this is one of those moments this is this will be played on highlight reals for the rest of time and I was actually here my son was not with me have an 18 year old son.

And I had not given him what of the tickets that I got to the game I gone with friends instead and he's still to this day has never let me forget it.

But it's just those moments are so magical and it's like sometimes when your team you're a mess fan you understand this when your team is suffering. You do ask yourself the question why do I do this to myself what what is the point of this like I makes me miserable. And the answer is those moments those times when you just can't believe what you're looking at it just it's you know it's unbelievable I'll tell you the other one since here at NBA guy first and foremost. I was at the nuggets clippers playoff game when you get through the shot up at the end of regulation and Gordon tip to end with less than point one on the clock.

We were there we had gotten my agents tickets and we were in the front row we were on the floor and yoke it took that shot probably six feet from my face like I watched that ball. So head toward the basket from the same exact angle in a coli yoke it's watched that shot head to the basket like my son has a video of it he was taking a movie the whole time and it's we watch it like once a month we just will cue that up and watch it because he was so incredible so.

“So I think I think I texted you during or after that game because I saw you on TV and just read it up yet another great moment in clippers history that you got in person.”

So you have now put into I was going to ask you in the book you mentioned three iconic kind of games and I was going to ask you to rank them as as spectator experiences from from like just not best to worse, but just like what if you had to pick one what was the best to be at you mentioned USA Serbia that was going to be one of them you were at I believe clippers spurs game seven and 2015 when Chris Paul hits the buzzer shot to win the series basically and. At Yankee stadium I believe Pedro Martinez strikes out 17 it a complete game one hit or actually one of my very good friends was also at that game and still like is still talking about it it's 1999 I think.

Yeah, if you had to pick one game to like relive from scratch like you could have raised it from a memory and going again, which of the games is it. And they had just steam rolled us like so often like in the regular season in the playoffs they they beat us again in the playoffs that year.

And just that feeling was so meaningful to me at that moment that like oh we have we have a weapon that we can deploy against the evil empire.

I will say that the Chris Paul buzzer beating lay up.

“That was a year if you remember the series I believe that was the like five four matchup that was the first round of the playoffs right and those two teams were both so good.”

It no one could believe that this was the first round matchup this felt like a western conference fine. It might have been been it might have been been three six like the spurs was the game game 82 randomly to the pelicans I think and it completely worked the seeding so that these teams who were clearly title contenders had to play and what I I still call it the greatest first round series in the history the NBA there are some other candidates but that's one. Definitely one of them and I will say that the thing that that game gave me there's a long chapter in the book where I just read about my history of NBA fandom because like you said about the match like I was a huge NBA fan in the 80s.

It completely disappeared from my life in the 90s and then when I moved to LA and started going to clippers games not like your games clippers games and Steph entered the league I I it started to come back to me and that game more than any other game I would say like lit a fire in me for the NBA like I was all in on the NBA after the after seeing that game live.

And since then have been an insane fan like I watch pretty much every regular season Celtics game either live or on tape delay.

I watch every playoff game I can watch I'm like all in on the NBA and it was in large part because of the experience of watching those two teams play in that game so. As a as a singular event the Pedro game pretty close to that is the is the clippers game as the Chris Paul game and then USA Serbia is obviously like will always be special to me but it that only happened because I watch Chris Paul hit that lay up so. That would be roughly I would say the order of me living them over again.

“All right, a lot of this book is about the nature of fandom how we pick our teams why we pick our teams when and life we lose touch with teams can we pick new teams et cetera one of my thesis of life is.”

You can't pick a team as an adult it's just not possible like I and really care the same way like I have all these dad friends who are like I decided I was an arsenal fan eight years ago and now I live and I with arsenal like no you don't I just don't think that that's possible. I think you have to pick a team as a kid for some particular specific reason to you where you live who you're dad or mom is a fan of some it's there has to be some organic connection and then you are stuck with that team for the rest of your life you can't switch teams you can't pick new teams you actually go through the exercise in this book of trying to become a fan of a team as an adult and you go very enthusiastic.

You can't just go through the exercise in this book that you can't just go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life.

You can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life. You can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life you can't go through the exercise in this book of life.

“There's nothing you can do to help them that's why we're superstitious I think it's why we wear the same hat or wear the same shirt or whatever.”

That's like a very child like thing and so I think that the bonds you make to teams when you're a kid are more intense and more powerful.

I would also say that I do allow for switching teams under certain circumstances Joe Pasnanski who I wrote the book with has been a Cleveland Browns fan all this life the Cleveland Browns finally just stabbed him in the back once too many times and he went on a quest to say like I need a new team now what's interesting is he didn't find one he found that even when he tried just like us in the book when we tried to adopt a new team. I just didn't take like it's too deeply ingrained in him in the book what happens is we decide to see if we can become fans of a sport we get a random number generator and a list of all the colleges in the world and all the sports.

We're going to watch them play in polka tello when they take on you know mizzula state or whatever and but after like a month of like really trying it just we were like this isn't real we're not it's falling flat like I grew up in Connecticut you con basketball men's and women's it was the biggest thing in the world.

“I'm a you con women's fan I mean you con men's fan like I'm not going to be able to just transfer that intensity and that emotion and that level of caring to a new team.”

I just don't think it's quite as possible as it is when it's something you're given or at her at or born with or regionally is given to you so I it's I would say I'm mostly agree with you but there are certain circumstances where I feel like people people are allowed occasionally to choose a new team. I guess I would have meant it by because I was very like every like the diehard nix fans had a love hate relationship with the bandwagon Johnny come lately nix fans in this magical first time at 53 years to run.

And I was very forgiving of the nix bandwagon fans like especially the ones that lost touch with the team for 15 or 20 years and jump back in.

Even the ones that just like I never liked basketball before my life and now I love this nix team knowing it's not going to mean the same thing to them as it is to the to the diehards but I don't I don't think you can switch teams I just don't think it's possible to develop a loyalty to one team in one sport.

“But I guess you know so the adopting it you like I tried with soccer Croatia has this guy guardian my wife is Croatian I felt I guess the Croatian national team I'm a fan of but that it's not the same it's like a once every four years thing.”

They have this guy guardian who was in 2022 was like a young up and coming superstar that all the premier league teams were like trying to get. That was like you know what maybe it's time for me to pick a Premier League team I'll pick whatever team he goes to but then it was going to be Chelsea and everyone was like you can't be Chelsea Chelsea the Yankees you can't be them then he ends up going to man city I'm like what am I going to become like they're the best team in the Premier League they win every I'm now going to be a man city fan and so it just it didn't it didn't take for me.

It's it's hard because you're you run into problems like that right like when I chose my Premier League team because of the 98 world cup because Michael Owen I was rooting for England.

And because they have a long history of failure and as a red socks fan I identified with long history of failure.

“So I became a Michael Owen fan and that led me to Liverpool and I was just like all right I don't know anything about Liverpool but I'm all in on Liverpool.”

Then John Henry amazingly bought Liverpool like a number of years later and it was this wonderful coincidence but if I had if he had played for man United. I wouldn't have chosen them because man United at the time was the Yankees and like I Beckham played for man United and when I was looking for a team I was like well that guy's like great and he's roughly my age and he is like famous and he's you know he's got this movie that what about with his name and the title like I was an obvious choice for me.

But I just couldn't do it I was just like I'm not rooting for the New York Yankees of the Premier League forget it so I got lucky when it came to that and if it's a little bit like if you are in that position where you're trying to find a random team you come up you hit these problems like the ones you just described where you know too much about sports to be like oh I'll just accept whatever this is. Sometimes it just doesn't work that way and I know a lot of people do you know the Tom Hanks story about asked in Villa like this is one of my favorite so Tom Hanks it's he writes about this in the introduction of the book Tom Hanks is doing a movie and he goes to England to do press this is years and years and years ago and he has jet lag and he turns on the TV and he's watching highlights of soccer which he knows nothing about and he sees that one of the teams is called asked in Villa and he's like what a weird name for a team asked in Villa so he's doing the press the next day.

And they say what are you going to do while you're here in London and he goes like I don't care about how any of this press I just want to see asked in Villa play lot. And just out as a joke and all of the you know not knowing it was a joke all the press was like why asked in Villa what's going on he was like they're they're the my favorite team you know. So then he gets reached out to from the asked in Villa front office and says do you want to actually see a match come on up. He goes to the asked in Villa stadium watches a game and is hooked for life and to this day is like the world's biggest asked in Villa supporter he goes to games every year.

They celebrate him as they're like celebrity he is to them what Spike Lee is to the next like he's just this. He's like this avatar of their team and so you know there's no one way that you inherit these things or choose these things sometimes it's random chance.

But it it doesn't always take and it and it neat you need something special to some magic sauce to happen if you're an adult in order for it to really become part of your life.

I just don't fundamentally, if you can care that much as you if about. I love this I love this take well, but I've never felt more spoken to than when you describe different journeys of fandom and one of them is called the bell curve where you have a peak and a decline and you describe it like this in the book.

You remember those things finally, but now you're fam now your fandom lies dormant that is exactly what happened to me with the meds and I wrote about this in 2015 for Grandland.

“My most painful moment as a sportsman I was like an absolutely batshit in sand meds fan like in college.”

I'm through like my mid 20s I watched every game when I was home I had the wild card standings like on my whiteboard in my college dorm room. I was refreshing. When I was in college and then I got a job and a wife and a kid and then I met made the world series in 2015 and I was living in Long Island city Queens and the whole city was on fire and I was like man I don't even know like one guy. But then you described the double peak when you get the reinvigorated peak laid in your life for later in your life and that's me now.

I got back into the meds two years ago and I got laid off from ESPN and I had nothing to do and I made a decision like I'm just going to go back in I'm back in now I'm going to stay back in and that's okay and that's what may be forgiving of the bandwagon experience. I'm going to find this woman Linda Holmes who works at NPR who is me. She was a Philly fan as a kid. She lapsed out of it.

“They won the world series when she was nine years old the meds won the world series when I was nine years old she lapsed out of it.”

She tried to pick a new team. Right. The Astros. She found herself emotionally unable to develop another loyalty and then she went to a Philly's game and she was like I'm I'm back in now.

It comes back so fast every part of it the rules of the game the style of the game but also the sense of community like the first meds game I went to when I got back into it.

Edwin Diaz came in and I'm standing up. I'm high five in the people behind me were count I'm like making the strike out motion like your friends with these people because you're right in the book about how one of the reasons or sports fans is to find a niche community of people like us. And when I was in high school everybody was the Yankees fan except like four of us were meds fans and we would like read. Prospect or magazines about Paul Wilson and Jason is ring house in and it was like Bill Pulsofer and Bill Pulsofer who was my favorite of the three.

And we did a great job. And we and that's that bond and you immediately developed that bond with strangers but I felt so seen like I felt like a phony getting back into the met so after being out for 15 years. But I feel the opposite now I feel like it's an actual organic way to go through life and Linda Holmes I want to have her on because her experience is just like mine and now she's insane about the Philly's again. Completely insane I mean this is what you're talking about really when you talk about like how it doesn't.

Work the same unless it's something you had when you were a kid like when you're a kid and you have a fandom that's intense even if it goes dormant. You're basically like the winter soldier right like it's some at any more the Bansherian candidate like someone can wake you up and reignite that feeling and that fire and that's what happened to me with the NBA like that's from this section I when I'm writing about my NBA fandom.

“That's what happened to Linda with the Philly's that's what happened to you with the meds like that cannot happen unless it was baked into you when you were very young and you have that sense of like a timeless connection to something.”

But how fun for you like it's I mean obviously the meds are a mess and they don't it's not great. It's not great but it doesn't really matter because now you're back on this journey with them and if they can figure it out and Steve Cohen can throw money at the right guys instead of the wrong guys. You're gonna feel what you always wanted to feel when you were a kid which is that feeling of like I care about this so much and they came through for me and they made me and all my friends and my community happy.

Now here's the twist that you're gonna like. My dad is from the hamster he is a lifelong diehard Red Sox fan what happened so when I was about six or seven years old I was like I love baseball. Like a 70's sitcom dad and was like look. I don't think you should be a Red Sox fan. Oh no. It's just nobody's just like it's just gonna mean painful yeah for the rest of your life.

Here's what I'm gonna suggest. First of all you can't take the Yankees they're banned you can't pick them they're evil.

He's like how about a national team here your two choices the meds are the local teams like 83 or something 84. Or your mother's from Pittsburgh and actually the first game I ever saw was a three of our stadium and it was meds pirates and it was around this time and it says whoever wins this game will be my team and the meds won the game but my the point of telling me this is.

I just I wanted to see them win for him right and I like couldn't go back right away to being a diehard meds fan because I got emotionally conflicted and in your book you write about the air and boon home run.

“Please tell for people the prank that multi time Zack low show low post guest Joe Mandy played on you and the boys at the writers room of the good place or where wasn't.”

We had we would find you know people come in and say have you seen this funny thing on YouTube and we would watch it and if we liked it I would bookmark it and put it on the bookmarks bar and then if we were you know banging our heads against a wall and trying to come up with ideas and we're getting nowhere. I would just like randomly play one of these videos and that's the same video's you know it's the the Rodney stanger video where there's like the news report about a missing girl and they say we're looking for this man Rodney stanger and instead it's a.

What comes up on the screen is a picture of like a hamster holding a sign and it's like that's not Rodney stanger you know and just at least little bits of like internet to try to is that that you know everybody passes around. So I would click on them a lot and we would just watch them enjoy them so one day I had to leave the room for some reason Joe Mandy Minnesota Timberwood's fan legend Joe Mandy went to the computer and changed the URLs that were linked to all of those. Now bookmarks on the bookmarks bar so that every single one of them linked to a show a video of Aaron boon hitting the home running against the Red Sox being 11th inning of the seventh game of the game of the ACS in 2003 the worst moment of my life like I and I understand that that means I've had a very good life but that really was the lowest moment of my life.

So I get back into the room we're talking we're talking we're talking after a I don't know half an hour I just randomly click one of the links what comes up is the Aaron boon home run I.

Meet like my the blood rushed to my head my eyes went black my my adrenaline and cortisol spiked and I cursed at every one in the room as they were by the way laughing because they thought ha ha what a funny joke I yelled at all of them and I stormed out of the room and immediately was like that is not a rational response to this.

“That's the child in you though that's what's it all of us and by the way since that moment they won the world series the next year they won in 2007 they won in 2013 like that wound should have completely healed.”

But because of how of that what what it made me feel in that moment seeing that image I just had no ability to modulate my response and so I came back in.

I remember eight seconds it was like really sorry that was not appropriate I apologize and everyone was like I remember the looks on their faces which were like oh we thought this was going to be funny and it was not received as such so like. That's what this thing does to us that's part of why Joe and I wanted to write this book is like.

“I mean it was a it was so visceral it was so fresh in my mind even whatever was 15 years later that I couldn't control the way I reacted and that is a very like what else in our lives is like that it's almost nothing I think.”

I that game is one of my flash full memories as a sports fan even though I am a med fan I remember exactly where I was I was at the lion's head tavern on Amsterdam Avenue between I think one tenth and one 11th or something like that I know I well it's a little up there.

And same tavern where I once failed in an attempt to hit on Julia styles but that's a different story for a different day didn't go great for me.

Shockingly you might be shocked find out it didn't go well. But I was obviously cheering for the red socks I talked to my dad like before the game where he was where was he going to watch it how was he feeling about the game I was there with like six friends and it was. The maybe the most electric non stadium atmosphere for any any game I've ever watched it was like 50 50 Yankees fans Red Sox fans in this bar. Out of control and then you know boon hits the home run off to wake fill of all people why did it have to be Tim Wakefield just like I mean unbelievably lovable guy.

All the Yankees fans started chanting in unison 19 18 yeah and in that moment I'm not even a Red Sox fan but I will say one thing I never did was I never wore Red Sox merchandise I never let myself do go that far because I'm a med fan I get that but I'm so devastated for my dad I hate the Yankees so much these got these Philistines are chanting 1918 and honestly there was in my soul somewhere sprung up this impulse.

And just conturing that image in my brain was like I'm kind of disturbed that might even a little part of my brain can picture myself cracking up over this this Yankees and cracking more of that with a bar stool but that's my ear and boon game memory.

“Can I tell you a story that's not in the book is on 9/11 was living in New York obviously like the world just absolutely changes in a flash.”

Devastating like terrified exhausted like people are coming to my elephant 16th Street and a bunch of people came to my apartment and we all gathered together and tried to make sense of what was obviously a senseless moment in our lives. And after like seven eight nine hours of just like watching TV and trying to figure out what the world was was like now. We realized none of us at Eaton so we went there's a restaurant on my corner we went out and we sat outside we just ordered some food and we're just you know ambulances and fire trucks are rushing down 7th Avenue and it's just.

It just seemed like we're just in a days obviously and I'm sitting there and all of a sudden you know the rebunch of people out on this patio and all of a sudden I hear someone go 19 18 and I was like. What is happening and I realize I'm wearing a red socks hat which I almost never did in New York in the year 2001 I'm wearing a red socks hat and someone is taunting me and I look over and I see a guy like four tables away smiling at me and pointing to the hat like his where the hat would be on his head.

And I looked at him like what are you doing and he goes red socks sock and I swear to God I know this is crazy. I for the first time all day I felt better I felt better about the what was happening because it was like the life goes on the planet is going to continue to spin.

Nike fans will always taught me for being a red socks fan the rivalry is intact like it was the first thing that day that happened that was normal.

“And I think about that all the time about like in the in the midst of the worst disaster that any of us had ever confronted.”

But also Yankees fan tape red socks fans and red socks fan tape Yankees fans and I think about it once a month I think about what happened that day and think about how odd it is that that's the thing that made me feel better about the worst tragedy that the US had faced in my lifetime. That's incredible.

I know you got to go let's let me just ask you it does me for a couple other quick ones sure one thing that I I feel like is going to be a generational divide to some extent is.

Fans of we are fans of teams I think a lot of young people are fans of players more than teams like I'm a bronze fan I follow him wherever he goes I know little mellow ball fans who follow him wherever he goes.

“What can you relate to that at all is that curable like I do think that Nick's winning the championship cure that for like a bunch of people in the trice day area are now just Nick's fans so maybe just winning.”

But I cannot relate to that I guess Kobe is maybe like the apex of that fandom but he never switched teams so it was never tested like that I can't relate to that all I don't understand it but do you find that you hear that from like your sons friends sometimes.

Yeah, I mean I when I was first getting into the NBA in the mid 2010s I brought I I mentioned this in the book two I brought my son the first player he loved was staff.

And I brought him to school one day and he was wearing a stuff courageous and he ran out to the playground he was probably in second grade or something or first grade and he started playing you know playground basketball with his buddies and they were all wearing stuff courageous and I thought. This is LA man this is like the center of the basketball universe none of these kids care about the lakers lakers weren't any good at the time and these these kids love Steph Curry and. I think that for young people because everyone is more accessible now they can watch highlights of every player on every team every day I do think there's a little more of that that they bond with players and then follow the players and and choose their teams based on the players.

Now what that continue through the rest of their lives I don't know I'm sure some of those kids became like her fans are got for a bit clipper fans but. But you know I I that's not something I grew up with you chose your team based on the city lived in or who your parents are good for. But I do think that because players have much more individualized personalities they have their own social media they have their own media branding that is out there. I do think a lot of young people are just like that's the guy I like instead of that's the team I like which I give it to you I don't understand it.

I guess it's probably more of a basketball thing than anything else because basketball superstars drive winning so much more than for sure.

I mean how much Kevin Durant's one of the twenty greatest battle pairs of all time how many teams is that guy played for like.

You know a lot now and several never change teams so those people became warrior fans by being step fans there they'll be warriors fans for at least as long as he plays.

LeBron I just know like a lot of LeBron fans and like so wait now you're a lakeers fan and you after like living and dying with the calves after living and dying with the heat and they're like yeah that's just how I roll I don't I don't get that at all. A couple of fun ones from this from the book you and Joe draft things often on your podcast and in the book you talk about how you drafted fruit.

“I'm very passionate about fruit so I made my top five fruits but what was your number you have a argument in the book I think it's grapes versus blueberries.”

Yeah. I believe I was team blueberry and Joe was team grape but specifically red grapes dot green grapes you have your correct blueberries are better than grapes. Do you have a number one fruit before I unveil my top five. Oh I think it's blueberries for sure yeah yeah that because I think the versatility of the blueberry the number of different things you can use it for unparalleled in my opinion. That's out of five readers listeners can debate it if they want to number one pineapple.

controversial choice and the only one among them that violates my rule of. Difficulty accessing the fruit. It's like mangoes get out of here with mangoes. I don't want to find apple one strawberry to peach is now jumped blueberry for three. Wow although the rightness can you know it's varies.

“More pear five I think pear is the most underrated fruit.”

Okay now when you say pear though are you going hard crunchy pear or soft mushy soft soft pear soft pear. Interesting see I only eat a pear if it cracks like an apple when you bite into it. I love both. I love both. We're asking you to pick.

That's what I'm thinking. I mean that's a lot is a wild list man. I mean you think you get yeah you would have to do a lot of work to defend that list on the podcast with me and Joe for sure. I'm happy to do it. I mean if you're imputing pineapple.

I don't know what to tell you it's delicious. I'm not imputing it.

I'm saying as a number one draft choice you read this is like this is drafting Ted Ginn Junior in the first round.

Like this is like I thought you were going to say Anthony Bennett and I was going to do like don't do that to pineapple. Don't put that on pineapple. It's not darker but it's also candy. It's a it's a it's a cut it's a reach like the other GMs are going to be questioning your pick. I would say for sure.

That's fine. You have a great chapter in the book about finding I mentioned finding community with my fellow Metz fans as a kid and how how affirming that is and how important it is. You have a great chapter about steely Dan and steely Dan fans and you know you made fun of steely Dan fans but they find their community I know nothing about steely Dan. But it just you mentioned in there. How you have you love this onion headline about steely Dan and then headline is Donald Fagan defense steely Dan to friend.

And it just shows the guy where the beer like shrugging and being like what Donald Fagan defense steely Dan to friends is such a great onion headline. On the headlines are little bits of comedy masterpiece is do you have a favorite onion headline that you know like off the top of your head or one that spoke to you. I mean, Onion has done more for comedy in the last 25 years and almost any other institution like that that book our dumb century if you haven't read the book our dumb century. Rundown walk.

There's a bunch of them. I mean they they seemingly amazingly come up with new ones like every week to the topic. Yeah, I mean in that book our dumb century this is a involved some cursing but the headline from like July of 1969 is like holy fucking shit man lands on fucking moon. It's like it's just the whole article is written that way of just like oh my god look which is happened it's hilarious.

“There's a one of one favorite one I think about it every sporting event ever attend is from that same book.”

It's a headline from like early in the 20th century and it says like like non melodic unsingable tune becomes America's national anthem. It's not like impossible it is to sing that song and how uncatchy it is. Yeah, I mean I I am an absolute onion stand.

I think that there that staff has been incredible at making jokes for so long.

I'm very indebted to them as a fan of comedy. I'll give you two of my favorites. This one I don't even know why it's funny or why I like it. The headline is just the photo is a guy with long hair in an ugly shirt holding a bang and making like a very angry point like he's pointing and like making like shouting and so much. And the headline is hippie will tell you what the real crime is.

I just love that one and then when they wrote this article and it's like a little paragraph article.

“I honestly was disturbed and how much I identified with what is supposed to be a satirical and barricing union article.”

The headline is and again, I identified with this as a real problem in my life. The headline is. Man concerned he spread himself tooth in between eating sandwich watching television and I'm like yeah. And he has the man is quoted. I looked away from the screen for five seconds because some of the meat was coming out from between the bread and I missed some stuff on the show. Like that's literally me watching the wire 20 years ago is like I can't I guess I can't eat a sandwich and watch this at the same time.

“I just wanted to give the ending a little shout out fantastic.”

Is there anything we did not cover from your I mean that the whole book is filled with you go to a grateful dead show at this fear. You make Joe Paznanski play pickle ball, which I absolutely love because I have my own I would say negative experience with pickle ball personally. And there's also beautiful beautiful like old school Paznanski sports writing and there particularly a moving part where you talk to a blind NASCAR fan and go with her to her first race in person and the sensations of the track.

He walks on the track and realize that it's banked even steeper than she thought it's there's a lot of beautiful stuff in there but is there anything we didn't want to talk about that you want to hit. No just that I you know it was a really fun way to spend two years I mean Joe like you said to me is the best sports writer out there and when I had the idea for the book. The idea and the idea of doing it with Joe were simultaneous like I was like if Joe doesn't do this with me I'm not doing it because I just wanted his perspective on this stuff his perspective on sports and my perspective about sports are very different like he's been immersed in a professionally his whole life.

I've just been a fan and I really thought that the book would benefit from having two different angles on this and it was a real joy to like. Take this thing that I've cared about so deeply my entire life and do what it mounted to like a. Like a journalistic investigation of it like that's really how we approach it was like there's this is a question here and we are going to investigate the question which is why do we love it what does this mean so much why do we love it so much why is it such a crucial part of so many lives we talk to a.

It actually academic who has done this is whole life and he said something I've that's really sort of stuck with me which is like.

If sports were just like fun and diverting that would be fine, but it wouldn't explain why this means so much too so many people you're talking about billion people more or less across the world.

Who are driven to seek this thing out and care about it and if that's true then that must mean that it's meeting some kind of basic psychological and emotional need that we have like it's needs are being met by sports. And to really dive into that aspect of it and really investigate that ended up being a very meaningful experience for me. I lied I have one other question because we have since we're a basketball podcast we have to talk about an important basketball moment in American history which is the pickup game on the office.

The the image of Stanley dribbling with his hand. How how did that is did he just did he just do that unprompted was he instructed like dribble in a goofy way because that. The rest of the scene is very funny Michael Scott's very funny in the scene obviously like shooting airballs being mad and not really know how to play but pretending that he does. But that image that's the scene like 50 years from now that's the image people remember how do you out is one land upon that.

“I you know I don't 100% remember but I'll tell you what I think is the case which is just you know that it's part of Michael Scott's kind of low level.”

But like racism that he suffered from which was that he drafted family the only black member of the obviously because it's a gas exactly yeah and so that was the story point. And I think probably what it said is simply you know that he passes the ball to Stanley and Stanley starts to dribble and is terrible at dribbling and then Leslie David Baker did something funny.

And that would be my guess I mean sometimes you know I play as you well know I played Moses on the office and in the in the first episode.

It's there was a stage direction that said you know most runs out of the room and I don't know why I ran the way I ran which was really weird in my my hands are sort of like straight out my palms are straight out and I stiff and I and I I was just like alright I'm playing a weird guy I'm going to run weird and from.

Did I thought in the moment was maybe weird and funny and I would guess that that's what Leslie did in that moment.

I don't think it described in the stage direction how he should dribble badly I think it just said he dribbles badly and then that was an actor making a funny choice. By the way did did they really drive a car into a lake Michael Scott and did the.

Yeah yeah that was there it was wild.

Now I'm just being a jerk and making you stay longer but like I rewatched the scene today because I was reading like just refresh my memory on iconic office scenes and episodes and I'm like.

“Pretty much looks like this really happened. Oh yeah and then you have to get it in one take right so like it like can you take us behind that process a little bit as much as this is your episode.”

Yeah that was a story that Jen Salada had found who's a writer on the show had found this a story about how multiple people at the time when GPS was new had trusted the GPS over their own eyes and had just they had seen that there was a lake in front of them or a river or something. But the GPS was telling them go this way and they were just like okay I guess the computer knows what it's talking about and had driven their cars into water. And so the story that we were telling was about Michael losing his confidence as a salesman losing his instinct and then.

“Just trusting the GPS and so that's what happened so what what you do in that situation is we found this kind of ramp that led down to like what was I think a little mini reservoir or something.”

A bunch of times and they accelerate and then he just stops the car and the accelerating stops cars you get the scene and then you put stunt drivers in there and there's divers who are literally with scuba gear under in the water at the time the case anything goes wrong. You put stunt drivers in and they is like alright let's make sure we get this because we only can do this one time and you get four cameras or something on four different angles and then the stunt drivers just drive the car right in the lake you get an old crummy cars because you're going to ruin it for the most part.

Just drove it right in I think we I'm we may have done it twice I think we maybe did it twice because they didn't go so far in that the water filled the car.

“They like they we got it in far enough so that it was like clear that that's what it happened and I think we maybe pulled it out and did it one more time.”

But you're climbing out of the car in the water right then you then you leave the car in the water you put them in it and then they climb out so you the actual stunt of driving in is stunt drivers and then after that you get and that that's why you have divers in the in the underwater so in case anything happens to the actual. The stunt performers know what they're doing but the actors are at a little more at risk so you make sure that they're safe you know the magic of Hollywood alright well I can talk to you for a million years about your shows but you have to go make another show.

The book is with Joe Pazynowski big fan it's right here it is awesome it's it's it's a breezy read but it's super fun super moving at times it made me think about. I think it's a great read thanks for your time but thank you buddy this is really fun.

All right that's it for today on the Zach low show thank you to John Hollinger thank you to Mike sure thanks as always to Mike Billy and Jonathan on production and thanks to you all for listening to.

And or watching the Zach low show will be back on Thursday with another episode is the NBA season gets closer and closer and news on contracts and other things begins to trickle in thanks again for listening we'll see you soon. 21 over in president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 and over in president and DC Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem call 1 in 100 gambler or 1 800 my reset call 1 888 789 777 777 or visit ccpg.org/chat and Connecticut or is it md gambling help.org and Maryland hope is here visit gambling help line ma.org or call 800 327 50 50 for 24 7 support Massachusetts.

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