NBA News Roundup With Rob Mahoney, and James Surowiecki on the Lakers Sale!

in the NBA, including a signing that actually happens today in New Orleans, Pelicans. They

“realize that the NBA offseason has been going on for several months, it actually made”

a move. Rob Bajoni is here to discuss all things NBA, the paint, Watson trade, the Wild Leonard situation. Every signing that's happened, Clay Thompson just lots of stuff to catch up on lots of takes. Take it off and then of course the big news of August was all of the ownership drama in Phoenix in Minnesota and especially with the Los Angeles Lakers, the shocking sale, the Mark Walter situation that no one seems to fully understand

that's not a complete financial expert. So we got a financial expert on this show. James Sir a wiki who wrote for the New Yorker for 17 years, one of my favorite columns he writes for the Atlantic, he's a professor at Yale. His master skill is taking super complex financial stuff and making it pretty explainable to lay people. He's here to talk about sports ownership in general, are releasing some of the soul of sports teams and sports fandom and what's

going to happen with the Lakers and what's going to happen with the Clippers. That's all coming up on a much-needed Zack Low Show. I'm happy to be back. Enjoy it. Welcome to the Zack Low Show. We're like A Guns Herdarian. I'm alive. Wow. I'm alive. You know who else is alive, Rob Mahoney? Who's that? The New York, the New Orleans Pelicans. They realize that the officers are going on. We're leading off with actual news. This is most going to be

what the hell happened while I was on vacation, including the Lakers sale with James Sir wiki later. But the New Orleans Pelicans signed Benedict Matharenne, two years,

16 million dollars. The Clippers decided and or apparently are deciding to help with Benedict

Matharenne. Well, rescind his qualifying offer, two years, 16. The second year is a player option. So basically, maybe one year, a Rob Mahoney, do you care? Should we care? Can you on August 26, can you summon an emotional response to Ben Matharenne going to yet another team and that team being the Pelicans who are I guess a basketball team filled with weird players. You don't fit together. And now they've thrown in Ben Matharenne, who just wants the ball,

“wants to take shots, wants to not make threes and not really pass very much. How does this work?”

It doesn't. But who cares? Ramahoney basketball news happened. It is very exciting. I do care. And frankly, I think some of it is what you describe, which is when you already have the team of weird players, what is one more? Like, let's just make this a little bit more complicated, a little bit more funky. I am despite all of the evidence of the contrary, despite the better part of my brain that is loudly yelling to be wary, I am still kind of a believer in Ben Matharenne.

So the idea of him getting another spin around somewhere else, and really let's be real about it. Like, the flexibility to then go to the destination of his choosing the following years, what this is all about. I want to see, I want to see what could hold for Ben Matharenne. Like, where he could really find himself, because clearly he hasn't been able to tap into it just yet. - Wait, played well in the finals. He's haven't been done yet. - He's haven't been done yet. Established himself

is like a legit bench score who can go get buckets and get to the line that's always been in my favorite

skill of his incredibly physical player. For his career, he has 500 assists in 500 and 2 turnovers. - That's right. - That's right. Not great. 34% on threes, and just int defensively, and those are the reasons why he's going to make $8 million and not $25 million, which, you know, this is a guy went to the clippers and scored 17 and a half a game, only shot 43%, but shot 50% on threes,

“and the clippers decided, eh, we don't, we don't really want him. I think he's a totally useful”

NBA player as a 6 man, 7th band. I have no idea how any of this fits together into Orleans. I mean, I already didn't. Like, design, queen, thing doesn't work on defense. They played Zion at the real little bit at the end of the last season with two big guys. That's not going to work. But I guess who cares? They're obviously not trying to chase anything huge in the next year. And, you know, I guess, we'll just have to figure out how to use Zion and Jordan

Pool and Dejonte Murray and Jeremiah Fears and Jordan Hawkins is probably going to be a casualty and Sadieke Bay is hanging around us. It's a group of dudes. It's a mad live of mad lives of dudes that play for the pelicans. I don't know what it amounts to. It's certainly as a group of dudes. I mean, I guess we just have no choice but to accept the radical stance that like, if you can get a good player at this price, just do it. And Benmatherins like impact and reputation aren't so large

that they would get in the way of really anything. I guess other than maybe, you know, Jeremiah Fears

pelicans lineup is, maybe Benmatherin is budding his way into that somehow. But isn't that just kind of like, okay, sure. Like, let's see it. I want to see if he can get, but I guess here's the question. What is the developmental course for Benmatherin over the course of this season? Like,

“what is it that he can prove realistically within the role in New Orleans he's going to get?”

They could lead him to a dream destination a year from now. I think within New Orleans, given all the people on the team who need the ball, including Zion Williamson, who had it last last year that ever before because Derek Queen also needs the ball and to jot them or he is now back healthy. I assume he will get a chance to shoot a decent amount of catch and shoot threes

if he is want to actually take them. And if he can make 38 percent of catch and shoot threes,

he's a different player and more than just sort of a bulldozer to the rim. And I guess that would be it. But I don't, I don't even, like you said, no harm, no foul. The clipper thing is interesting. Does it, does it change your thoughts either way on the abeats of Zubat strain? Zubat strain it from the clippers to the Pacers for Matherin and two draft picks, one of which is Keaton Wagler and another of which is I think it's 2029 unprotected Pacers pick. That was the famous, you know,

top five protection that went perfectly for the clippers. Does Matherin just being a complete

“rental for the clippers change your perception of that trade at all? I think it's more that”

the way that trade is developed is probably what made him a bit of a rental. Like, you know,

if the pick doesn't pan out, if Keaton Wagler never happens for the clippers, not only is that another

guard that is in the mix and therefore less opportunity for Ben Matherin, but it's like that is the return for Zubat's at this point. If it had been a lesser pick, if it had deferred, if it hadn't paned out in the way, it had that maybe I could see the clippers kind of holding on to Matherin and seeing if they could develop him into something that could be a part of their team long-term. But as it stands, like, I don't know that it changes the way I evaluate the trade

at all in part because Matherin's restrictive agency was always part of the process. It's part of the reason the Pacers didn't want to hold on to him in the first place because they didn't want to be on the hook for an expensive new deal. Just turns out that it's not that expensive of a new deal at all. And yes, I'm aware I misspoke. It wasn't top five protecting. It was one to four and 10 to 30 protected. It had to fall to five to nine for the clippers to get it. They got it. And it's like,

once that happened, I mean, this trade was never about Ben Matherin. He was in there as a flyer,

slash salary and all that. It was about the picks. It doesn't change. It doesn't change it from me, although the clippers that made some interesting decisions this all suits. All right. Yeah, I'm on those interesting decisions. I mean, you and I are just coming back from vacation, Zach, the moment I wish. By the time I know they're all out of time and northern Europe for us, Rob, we we gallevanted around northern Europe here and there. I was in Finland, Estonia,

and Denmark, and you hit Oslo and Norway and Denmark. I mean, a truly beautiful time of the year to be there. But the moment where I thought I had gone croissant drunk is when I got an alert on my phone

“that the clippers had resigned Bradley Biel. So things are happening there. Honestly, I forgot that”

that happened. We still don't know what team Kauai is on. We'll get to that with the clippers, and they got Max Troos and the deal we're going to talk about in a second. I have some vacation takes for you, by the way. Okay. Look, I just turned 49 yesterday. So I'm old, or two days ago. Yesterday was a travel day. It just erased it from a mind. So I'm old. This posing thing that people are doing that like the selfie stick is old news now. But like the level of posing that people are

doing for photos is completely out of control. So my wife's house in Croatia is right on the water, and we look at it. It's a scenic little spot and people stop. We can see below us as people stop for photos. I mean, and they don't they don't know that we're watching them. So we get to spy on them. Okay. We witnessed an outfit change. Like during a sunset photos, you like people brought out, like, I want to do it in this outfit, in this outfit. I heard one woman say to another woman,

pose like this because it makes your butt look better. Everyone is in this ridiculous, these ridiculous poses where it, like you wouldn't stand like this in any regular. I saw a woman fluff her hair for 45 seconds in preparation for, can people just experience anything anymore? Just take a picture and fucking walk. All right. That's my best one on my vacation take. Well, let me ask you this, which one is worse in this equation? The fluffers and the butt poses,

or the people who are sitting up on their perch judging the fluffers and the butt poses. You know, they're they're out here experiencing a kind of life if refracted through an Instagram filter. And everyone is judging them. Not just that. Everyone else is judging you. All right. We'll go get back to that. One of the things that we were on vacation is I think it was what you're

coli thing that happened, which was a very interesting bit of inside baseball in the media anyway,

“where yes, the end came out with a story by 17 writers. I think that said the walk-till”

lifting rosin and catch can't forget about cats being a cat cat's is coming off the bench getting buckets like Ben Matherin had found no evidence of direct cat circumvention linking bomber to the coli aspiration stuff. And might punish the clippers for some lesser things like expenses that they had given or like things they had given kawaii that you know should have been classified as expenses or whatever. And then so that was interesting because the investigation

has kind of wrapped but like the conclusion has come out yet. And then the NBA responded by saying the story had numerous and significant inaccuracies did not specify what those were. And then the clippers released a statement about sponsorships and other things that you know whatever. I don't remember what that was. Very curious all of this to me particularly the NBA firing back at an ESPN story that very clearly had at least some links to the clippers themselves.

And still we don't know if kawaii Leonard is a raptor or a clipper. Grady Dick, Brandon Ingram. I can tell you both themes are operating as if that trade will go through and I suspect it will go through. But what did you make of the whole, this is now two weeks ago and there has been no follow-up story. There has been no yet. It's one eastern time right now. I got my phone on alert. There's been no announcement about anything. There's been a couple more

publicory podcasts raking down his deal with electronics to scoreboard, jumbo tron halo, whatever manufacturer that kawaii had to deal with that the clippers clearly introduced the two

“parties. Pablo got emails proving that. But do you have any takes on this or you just done with it?”

I would say it might take sort of these. Like for one, this particular part of the saga, the firing of missives and press releases and whatnot refuting stories, just to me read it, read a read like the complete bungling of this from the leaks perspective. In terms of the messaging around it, the timeline, the management of all parties involved. Like if you are the NBA and you are the arbiters that are initiating this investigation through the law firm you mentioned,

like this is not your role to like quietly take little pot shots and refute stories like just just do the thing. Like we have had enough time. There's been a discovery. Like we can just move on. To your point, that whole day was such a clusterfuck. I'm six hours ahead in Croatia. I was one glass of wine away from crafting my own press release and just releasing it as a joke. Like let's have more. Anyone else want to have a press release on the dentist? Do you have a PR firm like

“who else wants to have a press release today? Oh my god. It's never too late. I think that's”

opportunity is still there for you. And I'm sure like because this thing keeps dragging on. I think what what I am left with at this stage is how much almost every party involved does not want to actually punish the clippers or coiliner for basically any of this. Like you will hear the occasional certainly like the guffing and laughing from people on other teams as far as how all this has been handled. There's not a lot of righteous fury about the clippers or

die caps or convention. There's some frustration for sure. But the reality is like other players

do not want this to be punished. The union I would suspect does not want this to be punished. Teams, the vast majority of them really don't want anyone looking to like too far under the hood with any of this stuff. Because like as soon as that level of scrutiny is involved. And to me, this is where the electronics, jumbo-tron part of the story got really interesting. I could just feel the league collectively clinch in terms of the teams. If you go to any arena, if you if you

you are around any team for long enough, you will see the sorts of like huh that is a weird coincidental arrangement that the fast casual pizza chain that a player co owns is in the arena where that player plays. Like isn't that such a strange little bit of happenstance? And as soon as it's like, oh, this is a building sponsor technology sponsor involved with a player. I just thought it was all fun and games and was about planting trees. But as soon as it became like the hardware in the arena,

I thought the story took on like a very different life. Okay, here's some thoughts I have. Number one, I thought the NBA's statement was very curious, numerous and significant inaccuracies.

I'm gonna, here's what my bet was on that day. I almost tweeted this. I said, you know what? I'm

on vacation. I'm not tweeting. I'll bet you it plays out like this that the ESPN story is broadly correct. This is my prediction and that the ESPN story is broadly correct. That the NBA will find a couple of nits with it to pick to defend its statement retroactively. So you can see there were

probably just really mad that the Clipper's and or ESPN jumped the gun by trying to get out in front of a story in front of the announcement in front of the resolution, whatever it is when the PR was in an tactic that might end up backfiring. But that was my read of what happened there. I actually don't think the NBA maybe I could be completely wrong yet the NBA may come out and just hammer the Clippers and be like this was all wrong. My prediction would be that statement looks to be that

statement by the NBA looks to be a bit of hyperbole once all is said and done. I don't know what's gonna happen here. I suspect the trade goes through. I said from week one of this that I think they will there will be a slap on the risk kind of punishment for the Clippers and that's it. Whether that's fair or not is is up to the beholder. But here here are some things that I know you're ready. Yes.

I don't think there will be a smoking gun and never have thought there would be whether you

think there needs to be one or not depends on a bunch of different things including your reading of the collective bargaining agreement. There's a clause in here that I'm reading now that you can infer in a legal team sponsor player arrangement. If if such compensation from the sponsor of the business partner is outrageously overmarket value that box is checked and the player salary is undermarket value. I think that's one of the that's one of the places the Clippers have you know pretty firm

ground to stand on how big Cli Leonard was ever underpaid and then there's circumstantial life and as I don't think the NBA wants to rely on circumstantial life and it's but here are the two things

“that to me if you're going to exonerate the Clippers of the big stuff. That's why that ESPN store was”

slightly disappointing to me. I knew that sort of was coming. I was waiting for it and it came and I was a little like I was like oh that's not as strong as I thought it would be because there are two questions that need to be answered proactively to exonerate the Clippers. Not to that I need to exonerate them to give them the slap on the wrist. Number one why did this company pay? Why Leonard so much money to do nothing so much money so much more money than it paid any

other individual sort of whatever representative. Yeah well like is there a possible explanation for that and the explanation can't be well the company was just dumb and it was a fraud. It has you

have to give me a reason why him why him and second I mean that would say a lot of things these days

are explained by the people involved our dumb and/or a fraud and it seems to be going great everywhere else. Why didn't they pay Robert Dundee, June 2 or whoever the hell it was that was on their slippery endorseor list anywhere near this amount of money and why did he do nothing? And number two why did the Clippers see Baltimore and Dennis Wong continue to pour money into this company whenever when else seem to understand that it was a fraud. I'm not saying that that's proof of anything

but I'm saying for the Clippers to come out not even clean but like not dirty in the view of

“the public. Yeah I think you need to offer explanations for those two things that we're not offered”

in that ESPN. So you just can't say we found nothing. You have to you have to explain those things too. There's just one little catch and it's there's no explanation. Like that plausible thing that's going to make everyone feel good about this doesn't exist because I just think this is pretty clearly what it is and whether there's enough evidence to like quote unquote prosecute someone in the NBA sense or for Adam so I don't really really throw the book at anyone. It's sort of a different

conversation. All of this stuff is very very delicately collectively bargained for a reason but I just there are no smoking guns but there's a lot of smoke and everything seems to be pointed in one very specific direction and it's all just like a little too coincidental and circumstantial at this point to pretend that everything is above board. A violation of section 2A or 2B above may be proven by director circumstantial evidence including but not limited to evidence that

a player contractor any term or provision there of cannot rationally be explained in the absence

of conduct whatever whatever and that I keep going back to that clause and I mentioned it the first

week. I don't know that that bar has been easily I don't know like I don't I don't know what's going to happen here I don't know what quote unquote should happen here. I know that you do

“to really hammer them you have to draw a line directly from team to sponsor to player”

to supplement his basketball salary and I yeah we'll see if that that line is drawn and I've been anyway that's that's coi anything else on the clippers or coi I'm ready to wash our hands of all this personally let's go on to the most interesting thing basketball-wise that happened

from the Denver nuggets with Max Drew's going from Cleveland to the clippers and an unprotected Cavs 231 first round pick going to Denver as the crown jewel of them trading paint Watson. Really interesting basketball trade for the Cavs really polarizing moment for the nuggets who were pilloried for this as the predictable cost-cutting casualty that would have to happen once Cam Johnson was a choir for Michael Porter Jr and not traded this summer and I do think they had opportunity

“to trade on Bryan with horse reported this the other I think he's right once Christian Brown's”

deal got at at least temporarily if not permanently underwater once they couldn't unload Zignaji

at a cost that was palatable to them and his eight million dollars or seven and half is still

sitting on their books um they were pilloried for this for having arguably the best player in the world on your team in his prime deciding we don't want to pay full freight for this team this year and a couple of things are true I think they could have kept paint Watson at this price kept Cam Johnson kept everybody paid two I think just a huge amount of money in luxury taxes for this one year been over the second apron this one year and gotten back under it next year by letting Cam

Johnson go and when his deal is up after this season and filling out the roster pretty cheaply like that was possible this could have been a one-time only second apron for the nuggets keep everyone

“and then go from there they also I think could have traded Cam Johnson this off season take to”

back less money enough so that they could have resigned paid Watson at this price and had it be somewhat palatable to them and so in that sense it was kind of an either or into to some degree between Cam Johnson and Peyton Watson they chose Cam Johnson and this first round pick over Peyton Watson what are your thoughts I think I would feel better about that either or or the greater bargain of what's happening here if it did have more to do with Peyton Watson

in a way if this was just like a team having some reservations about who Peyton Watson is as a basketball player I am a believer I like I think he's going to be quite good but even I have to admit a lot of that is based on a couple of months of actual basketball just has not had a tremendous opportunity to play meaningful high level basketball despite the circumstances and how competitive Denver has been

“if this is all about like oh we think Peyton Watson is an injury risk oh we think that maybe”

his development isn't going to pan out oh we think defensively his reputation outpaces the reality of who he's been and who he can be I would understand that if this felt like a team blanching at paying top dollar for Peyton Watson that would be okay but it just feels like a team not wanting to pay period as the nuggets are ought to do and as they have established a reputation of doing and I just I feel like this conversation is only going to get worse and worse because this is not just about

the nuggets and the coli yogic although clearly critical characters involved here but as you might

allude to in your other segment today it's like the baseline expectation that owning a sports team should mean that you pay for your competitive teams to continue to be competitive might just be a thing of the past in the NBA like maybe this is the apron environment is prohibitive enough and the ownership situations around the league are unstable enough and really just interested in the equity of the franchise overall in the transactional nature of it rather than who actually competes

I just feel like I'm I'm like watching the dying of the light here in a in a really disparating way well a very classic owner thing to do to vote collectively for something in the in the CBA in this case the second apron and then a year or two later be like oh my god this horrible thing how did this get here this would strain how did we do what what has be fallen us I can't keep to these handcuffs I put on myself here's the way to spin this for

Denver number one yoke it's is never leaving I'm saying this is the way to spin it for Denver yoke it

is said I want to retire and nugget um not to this is gonna matter to him I take I actually take him at base value and a person like Nicole Yoke it's you showing no appetite for the limelight for changing teams for any of this drama comes out and says yeah I'm not signing my extension to summer I'll sign I'll sign a new contract next summer I'm gonna retire and nugget I'm gonna take that a face value and assume that he's not sitting there like oh my god paint Watson's not on a team

that changes everything um number two I do think they they thought Cam Johnson started to acclimate himself a little bit more toward the end of last season and expectations for it but what a year under his belt and Denver will mean for him yeah number three the story of this

is talking it up like it's a crown jewel pick because it's twenty thirty one god only knows who's

going to be on the cabs and how well down of a Mitchell will be and all of that there's definitely some upside to it there aren't a lot of picks like that floating around the league anymore um that's

“the positive spin I think this is to put it as simply as I can I just don't think the nuggets”

without Peyton Watson are athletic enough to contend with the thunder and the spurs and that's what I've said all like I don't think Peyton Watson is a twenty point score I'm not sure how real the three point shooting last year was it needs to be a much higher volume for him to fulfill what the calves are gonna need him to fulfill and we'll talk about the Cleveland side of it in a bit I'm not sitting here trying to make Peyton Watson seem like a three time all star lying in the

weeds he's a nice player I do think when you're the nuggets and you're most bursty athletic

player Aaron Gordon is entering the back side of his career has just an endless melody of leg injuries that affect him often on for every season it's gonna lose some of that bounce I think they just look too small too soft too on athletic to contend with the two teams are gonna have to contend to for the remainder of your purchase prime and the only in-house remedy they had for that was Peyton Watson jumping around and blocking shots and dunking offensive rebounds and just

being a legit six seven super athletic guy I just think you need a modicum of that kind of athleticism to compete against the spurs and the thunder and I just don't think they like Jamal Murray and Nicole Yokech they get they are super skilled they get buy in a lot of different ways Cam Johnson's not blow athlete pushing browns a good athlete but not a great athlete I just think they don't have enough of that umph quotient anymore and so you can talk about the pick and what they

could turn it into and the cost and Cam Johnson and continuity I just keep coming back to the umph factor is like I just don't think they have enough of it anymore to contend with those teams well especially when we just saw what that lack of both can cost you against not even teams like

“okay see and San Antonio but against an opponent like the Minnesota Timber Wolfs and the playoffs and I think”

really this is not just hamstring denversibility to compete with the top like the tip top of the western conference but it's responding their ability to compete with the wolves the lakers like the rockets these other teams that are going to be in the middle of the pack with them buying for the same playoff spots the same matchups it's just going to get that much harder and the idea that you're rolling into a season of which you are supposed to be contending with a materially worse roster

unless that pick manifests into something pretty quickly over the course of this year and just hoping for the best like that's not a solution and in all of this I agree with you there's some original sins here I think Christian Brown's contract has just proved to be an absolute quackmire which which by the way I can't sit here and claim I saw that coming I thought that's a pretty fair deal for a young guard who messes well with your championship nucleus like that's

and I that his so far been very wrong and all these things are if Christian Brown shoots 40 percent on threes this year that contract looks okay again but he was not as good defensively as they needed them to be and he did not shoot it nearly well enough no and he had shown preceding that contract like a real upward trajectory in the way you were describing with pain watts and

“too I think those were the two internal projects they really needed to work to not only”

like continue to improve the Denver nuggets but just to sustain them as guys like Aaron Gordon got a little older as they took steps back as they started piling up injuries like he has like they just needed those guys to help them tread water and continue to be really really good I just think this is going to be a clear step down from even who they were last year on the pick itself I mean if we're sitting here saying the nuggets despite you know

so that like I thought resigning Spencer Jones I was kind of surprised they matched that deal from Oklahoma City I was a devilish little maneuver by the thunder but I'd like Spencer Jones

I think he's good we'll talk about the pros in in a second I'm not sure he moves the needle at all but

whatever if we're thinking the nuggets are now a clear step down from the spurs who they have played very well on the regular season by the way and the thunder and that this is an urgent timetable on yoke it's just prime when we talk about that pick and what they can make of it it's like this season kind of thing it's like what can I get now with that pick or next like if I'm being urgent about it and I'm just like not that optimistic like what is so I

came Johnson plus that pick Christian Brown with five years left on his deal plus that pick I don't think like I was going through names like I wonder what that could get me and I'm like it's there's it's not like a big game-changing player at this point I don't think Christian Brown salaries in that negative so you're paying to get off of it Cam Johnson is an inspiring deal now he's also extension eligible would not surprise me in the next couple of weeks if we get the whole

so that's one thing is like I'm not optimistic that there's a game-changer that's going to

help them like right now just dangling that pick and whatever salary they have expendable we'll see a tomorrow deros in big name clearly now will come off the bench for the nuggets do you care does this matter to you I think it matters to me in a couple ways I mean for one given where the nuggets were with the second apron and the limited ways which they could actually

“add players getting tomorrow isn't for the minimum is totally fine good bat like you should do”

that if you can do that does he actually address the things that he would suggest he would address that's kind of the question for me like Denver was a team that needed I think another creator to take some of the heat off of the Yokech Murray two-man game which as we saw in the playoffs just got I think kind of spammed beyond his utility like overstretched to a point where they needed some kind of counterbalance tomorrow deros in theory could be that kind of counterbalance but part of the

reason that's true is because he's such an effective like siloed bucket getter like he is a guy who you can entrust to create just those kinds of opportunities but I think he's so siloed within the context of this team that I don't see how he fits really at all into the best versions of what they do like how does he draft off of Yokech and Murray how does he play off of Aaron Gordon like these are they're not incompatible they're just like kind of speaking different languages in a way that

“I think even Tim Hardaway Jr was a little more copicetic with Denver's way of life that tomorrow is”

yeah deros in like we know he's not going to shoot a lot of threes and he's not going to shoot them particularly well and he's not going to be guarded at the floor space or he's best with the ball in his hands which makes him a weird fit with the Murray Yokech's kind of that needs spacing that needs oxygen around it throwing Aaron Gordon or any Christian Brown anyone else who is a minus to average that Aaron Gordon is a huge plus three point shooter but he's not a high

volume three point shooter's guarded that like that and it just you know doesn't feel great obviously you'll come off the bench the one thing I'm curious about is is this an opportunity for them to toy with the super hard stagger of Murray and Yokech that every minute Yokech doesn't play Murray has to play can you throw deros into that role with Tius Jones two starters and whoever is ending up playing you'll Marvin Bagley the backup button and get by with deros in playing deros in ball and then

maximize them in its Murray and Yokech play together a little bit more like that's that's A thought and he's still deros in an elite mid-range shooter high 40s percentile percent wise so I look I don't it's a it's a perfectly good minimum signing will help them here and there I don't know that he really fits with the best lineups that they put out there but that's not what they're paying him to do all right let's think week break and talk about the more interesting

side of the straight at least basketball wise which is the Cleveland Cavaliers all right I've been dying to talk about this I think this is such an interesting move for the

Cavs. Max Drew's big part of their team missed almost all the last season and was essential

again in the playoffs underwhelming run to the conference finals and then they got steam rolled by the next obviously he's a casualty here you go to the clippers. Ain't the the Cavs are betting a Sam Merrill plus Jalen Tyson we kind of have enough to hybridize Max Drew's in some kind of way and obviously be there petting on Peyton Watson being the exact kind of player that they've been

“searching for with the Andre Hunter and every trait remember that they've ever been in”

Carrus LeBurt for wing players 3ND wing players a true 3ND wing player. I think the D is there you know there are people who think Peyton Watson's a little overrated on defense I have not one of them I think he's pretty goddamn good has his strengths and weaknesses like anyone else but clearly he's just dimensionally his size his length his athleticism he's the player that they've been trying to get he shot 52% on corner three's last year 45% on corner three's the year before I think above the

break three's a little shake here so his place in the offense is going to be interesting he shoots them at low volume like I think for per 36 minutes or something like that and they were pretty

open threes for the most part I looked at the tracking data he's like upper third of the league and

like distance from defender to shooter when shooting threes so we'll see how that works my gut at when this happened was I think this is a really fun move for the calves on the terrace in Croatia I was like I like the moon shot it's a costume of a valuable pick I'm cool with that they've now resigned hard in which was up was a fade accompli that was sitting there waiting it was just a math math problem so once you flip Garland for hard in your all in and I think three

an elimination game somewhere along the way but look that was the price of doing businesses as soon as you made that trade you're all in for now you still got mobility so got Alan yep

“I think this is worth a shot at a player archetype that they haven't been able to find who's”

young and 22 million a year for free 88 I think is fair value for paid in Watson

that was my day of reaction I still feel mostly that way I also feel like this move like I could see him having a mildly disappointing season for the calves considering the expectations and the excitement level that everyone felt when the trade happened because I'm just not convinced he's going to take and make enough threes for this to really work on offense and particularly when they have the two bigs out there but I still kind of like the move for the calves

I also like it it is awkward like there are little bits of awkwardness in the fit in the same way that there have been for basically all of the wings you laid out that the calves have tried in this exact spot but paid Watson is kind of dietary hunter with a pulse he is kind of

deandry hunter with like a little more bounce in terms of his ability to protect the rim which is

important I like who he could be for them but with you that like what the calves asked of that player who they're plugging in at the three alongside Mitchell and hard and in a bit you know alongside their two bigs it's a little different than what many teams ask of their wings and a lot of it is because Mitchell and Hardin should not really be guarding point of attack players really at all. There's a reason why Max Cruz and Dean Wade were like the go-to guys for that assignment in the

“playoffs even against really high level opponents and so can't paid Watson do that. I think he's”

pretty good at guarding wings certainly but I would say better at guarding wings than bigs at the stage in his career can he credibly guard like point of attack creator guards on a consistent basis. He's been a little bit more in like the Kevin Durant defensive zone than he has in like the Cate coming him to see you guys can say to your point the people they faced in last year's playoffs Cate coming him Dylan runs in like these are the kind of guys that's the job at the garden.

Yeah and so it's like that part I'm very curious to see how he does or really frankly even if the Cavs deploy him in that particular way. Well also see kind of how they want to manage those sorts of assignments. What I am excited about I mean for one seeing if the three point volume can measure up seeing if he can be the kind of shooter they need which is not just someone who makes 40% of your threes but someone who has the gravitational pull to demand defensive attention away from Hardin and Mitchell we'll see

of defenses defensive really treat him that way. But in terms of his own defense too to me like part of what makes mobility and Allen a really effective and quite special as players is like the versatility of where they can play on defense like those are two guys who are pretty comfortable stepping out pretty high on the floor but when they do it really exposes the backline rotations for the cats and it really exposes them as a rebounding team and if Payne wants and can help

an either of those ways I think he could be really uniquely valuable in a way that yeah he might not fit just so he might not be the exact archetype of what we're expecting from this exact player but he might give them something they've needed all along in ways that they're kind of transformed them yeah the defense thing is going to be super interesting because like you said you'll be at the point of attack a lot and you can almost overthink it by by like my brain went through this whole

cycle of thoughts like well if he's at the point of attack one of his best strengths is a defender is

he's like an incredible shopwax and presence in the paint am I losing that in exchange for having

him guard at the point of attack and sparing hard and and Mitchell in assignment that they can't do okay so it's not like teams are going to stop hunting Mitchell and Harden in the playoffs and so then I switch Payne Watson when they when they run those kind of two man actions target those guys then I switch Payne Watson well then he's off the ball again and I've at least made you kill time

“he's also big enough and quick enough that the hedge and recover strategy if you want to”

employ that he should be better and more disruptive at that than anyone the calves have had and just like whatever role he's going to be in defensively and by the way he's like he's he's a real small ball power forward to something that they've tried to have facsimiles of particularly last year they played very small lineups when they would have one of the bigs off the floor he can actually play that position at least in a shop block or rim protector type like whatever you use him the defensive

upgrade is going to be enormous he's just a different kind of presence than they've had I just think the questions come on offense and if he's going to be able to make enough threes watching Harden and Mitchell run the offense where he's going to be is he's just going to be standing in the corner is he going to be able to make enough of them to make up for the fact that he's not going to be guarded like a shooter at least at the beginning of next season I think it's I think it's more

good than bad I think it'll work pretty well I also just think the calves are generally being

James Harden and elimination games and I can't like I just it's that's over I can't do it

yes some good games in the playoffs not elimination games as big games against Detroit I he's like fine I don't really feel great about like years two and three of this contract but I'm not focusing on that now I understand that they kind of limped by the raptors and limped by the pistons and got walled by the nicks and none of it made you feel that confident in it but I remember arguing with Bill about LeBron and he would just was so negative on LeBron is a fit

in Cleveland with Mitchell not not just because of the overlap and having all the ball handlers with Mitchell Harden and LeBron which was going to be like weird but just he didn't see the ceiling for that team and he loves the ceiling with them and Philadelphia with LeBron and Philadelphia

“I think that team's really interesting too but one of his arguments was well Cleveland is”

dead on arrival defensively with Mitchell Harden and LeBron I'm like well it's is Philly not kind

of in the same boat with like why are like Cleveland has mobiley and Allen at the very least I think this team is weird has not been super convincing in the playoffs they're over under 48 and a half I would take the over and I think I have made pick shot I don't think I'm going to pick Cleveland to win the East but I think they're kind of being slept on a little bit because of for all of those reasons they're being so I think they're

really good I think they're really good I have to think like a little weird does them good like this is a team that needed a bit of a not dramatic change of pace necessarily you don't need to reconceptualize the whole roster like how do you take what you have and make it feel new again how do you breathe some different kind of life in it and pain Watson for exactly the reasons we were describing the nuggets with miss him like his athleticism does that for teams so real

thing man that guy's going to make four or five plays a game it'll like block shot off the backward and all of a sudden you're in transition the other way like it's a real thing whether you think he's going to be worth this contract or a future all star or whatever like he does things few other players can do and for that for the cats have one more guy who can sort of tap into that

“sort of skill set I think is I mean a great thing to make them sort of a wild card element within”

those upper tiers at the east I just think the big challenge for the calves and pain Watson exacerbates since some ways is that like when you get to the playoffs I just think the offensive to have a little bit more unpredictability and juice to it then just like now it's going to be hard in dribbling around forever and now it's going to be Mitchell dribbling around forever like I thought Mitchell's passing was really disappointing in the postseason I just thought the offense

lost a lot of it now they they faced three great defensive teams and that has to be factored into I just didn't think they had enough creativity movement just overall pace on offense and I don't know I don't know if Peyton Watson helps with that and he obviously is probably a shooting downgraded compared to Struce but I still think this is all worth it and the upside is interesting for the calves and the space is clearly important in terms of keeping the

biggest and the floor and making it all work together but who he is playing in space is a huge part of that formula to whether it's as a small ball for or just kind of cutting and moving and

“that's one of those areas where I think we're going to figure out really over these next two”

years who Peyton Watson is in that way the nuggets certainly had hoped at one point that he would develop the sort of like Aaron Gordon dunker spot like agile read and react game though it

allowed him to be a critical part of the action itself it never really came along like he never really

had a feel for that stuff but he's what gonna be 24 years old going into the season like he still has time sometimes that just clicks into place for guys Aaron Gordon was one of those players himself who had to develop that over time like is he ever going to be a fluid read and react kind of offensive threat or is he going to be the athlete you put in the corner and just like kind of hard charge baseline to cut like to cut and the dunker spot is off limits to him when the two

big guys are on the floor and everyone wants to rush the next move which is you trade Jared Allen for whatever and hopefully as you're starting five and Watson is your four and all that and maybe that is the end game maybe it's always been the end game I don't know I know Cleveland is damn good when globally and Alan are on the floor together defensively really really good and for now they're on the team they're going to start they're going to play what 20 to 28 minutes a night together whatever

it ends up being as you stagger them and in those 20 to 28 minutes when you've eaten Watson's on the floor the dunker spot is going to not be his he's going to have to figure out how to make a impact also but I think you will enough anyway all right the other big move that happened clay Thompson bought out by the mavericks signed with the Miami heat obviously we know what clay can do a plus plus shooter one of the greatest shooters of all time I think he actually has a chance if not

will slide into the starting five for Miami and displace Pella Larson so you'd have Davian Mitchell clay Wiggins Yannis Band that's kind of interesting off the bench some combination of Drew Smith

back up five out there that they'll probably get a sign yo bitch is still hanging around there it's kind of an interesting team it they've become more interesting both with clay and with time to me they're over under his 44 and a half I would take the over in a heartbeat for them I'd think they'll win more than that I think they're going to be competitive and I think clay

look he's old he's suffered two devastating injuries the old clay has never come

back the peak clay has never come back but I've seen some analysis like this is exactly what they need they needed shooting clay is just going to stand out of the way and and piece of open looks I think the value of clay is he's not going to stay out of the way and just stand around in the corner clay is going to be one of the most important screeners on their team both off the ball and on the ball his value is going to be the combination of the shooting his movement

and his screening because both bam and yannis especially yannis have just eaten and thrived on those inverted picking rules when the guy's screening for them is a shooter who can slip out who can hit you and flare out who can set flat screens where the defense doesn't know which

“direction you're going to go and he that's what clay's been doing that stuff his entire career”

I think he's going to be flying all over the court creating havoc and in that sense I think he's even a better fit than he's been getting the credit for being because of his shooting he's not going to be a standstill shooter and the heat medium to not be a standstill well they already have guys who can kind of do that to very succents like Andrew Wiggins can do a version of that less comfortable on the move clay like not only does clay still have that skill set and

look he knocked down more threes than any member of the Miami heat did last season like he's still a good high volume shooter but those inverted picking rules like airspelters one of the most inventive coaches in terms of this exact sort of off-ball movement like the you know the mines who brought you the Wayne Elington Renaissance and the Duncan Robinson breakout it's like all of this stuff can just continue to come to roost and live on through clay time

like when movie trailer Rob comes out from the mines behind Wayne Elington's 225 three point

“season you know people forget about Wayne Elington unfortunately but I think the inverted”

pick and roll element of that I'm really excited about not only with clay but I think Dave Yon Mitchell too has like a bigger guard can fulfill some of that prompt I just think under the circumstances this was about as good as you were going to do from this kind of spot and with this

kind of utility like there is no bullet proof 3nd wing you're going to get for like six million

dollars a year but if you have a superstar if you if you successfully get Yonis then you can bring in someone like Clay Thompson to help kind of flank the offense and shape things up a little bit and one of the reasons I think he has a chance to start and maybe should start despite his defensive limitations at this point is he's protected all around him by good and great defense of players like weekends is the second worst defender in that starting five and he's pretty good

ban many honest or obviously all defense level guys even if Yonis is maybe taking a slight step back missiles are pitiful I think he's exactly what they need and they're starting five and they're benched like when you start listing the names they've quietly become a little deeper

“then maybe not a little deeper but I think hard away it was a nice signing definitely for this”

portus was I know he took a fence to this on Twitter but he was kind of the tax on the deal but he's still a good bench player who can play like with Yonis at however you want to classify who's the four who's the five you can play with BAM you can play with pretty much any one of those guys Pelal Arsons I think was going to start before they got Clay I think he's pretty solid I still have hope for Yolvich and then you have like our guys Simone Fontecchio still floating around

in the deep bench Conwell they have hopes for Cushard Johnson Gardner like those are all I think they've put together given how much it took out of their sales to get Yonis how much of their depth they had to throw out to get Yonis and they've done as good a job as they could and I'm it really like I think they're going to be a good competitive team I kind of poo pooed before before I went on vacation I had Gold's Berry on and we did our most pressure most pressurized

player rankings and I didn't even have Yonis on it and I said because I just don't think the heater going to be like good enough for him to face that kind of real pressure a month later or whatever I think they're going to be a little better than I thought not just because of Clay but like as the rosters sunk in I think they're going to be I think they could go toe to toe with almost anyone in the east but I still think they just don't have enough really good players to win three

playoffs series in the east like I still don't think they're a contender contender to get to the finals but I think they're pretty damn good and that's a fine step one in the honest here I don't maybe you think they're a finals contender I personally seen them win three playoffs series if they

if they become a contender and to single most important reason is that Yonis and Bam are more

complimentary on offense than I am envisioning now I think that would require not only some

some of the supporting pieces maybe the younger kind of question mark elements to show to be more than one thing right like is is Pella Larson someone who helps you move the ball and facilitate offense or can he also develop as a shooter like myron Gardner can knock down some open shots can he prove to be anything else for this team like they need like Clay Thompson is good as a movement option to help space the floor and keep momentum in your offense but like otherwise you know exactly

“what he's giving you and it is somewhat limited and is somewhat focused and that's what their”

supporting cast looks like to me it's like it is Yonis it is Bam those guys are flexible and versatile and I mean among the more skilled bigs in the history of the NBA if you want to plot it all out

just in terms of the breadth of what they can do it's incredible everyone else it's kind of a

specialist in some way or another and so it's like is the NBA in 2026 and 2027 the kind of league where you can survive off of that in a conference where the next or the defending champions the sixers are loaded up in a totally new way we are just singing the the cabs praises as a factor in this particular race we haven't even gotten to you know the bills of the world talking themselves into the Paul George Celtics like I didn't enjoy it it didn't go to that as an

compromise to why on the raptors yeah I mean possibly the East has 11 teams next to who I think believe they can be a play in slash play off team and probably several I have

“dozen or so believe they can win the conference Miami would certainly put itself in that”

ladder bucket to me it just comes down why I can't put them quite that high even in a conference it's seemingly more open at least in the west which is top heavy but so heavy at the top that just dethroning those two teams seems impossible is a there are two best players overlap too much on offense in yannison bam and have the same limitation on offense despite bam becoming much more willing three points shooter and in 83 point score against the Washington

Wizards beta and and that plus your third best player is I guess Andrew Wiggins and like

the Andrew Wiggins who was the second best player on a championship team we just haven't seen that guy for a sustained period of time in Miami I just don't think the talent quotient is quite quite high enough but good signing and I'm excited what comes next for the heat all right the last thing that happened while I was on vacation that you and I have to discuss his Russell Westbrook retired fifth all-time and assists 16th all-time in points obviously in MVP

average triple double multiple times all-time record holder in triple doubles one of the more beloved players of his era he he is the internets NBA star of the last 15 years great weird career right like you have the Oklahoma City opening act which peaks with the 2012 finals and then there's the hard and trade which is the disaster and then they still could have made the finals the next year in 2013 rust gets hurt in the first round with Pat

Beverly the collision at half court twenty fourteen a bucket gets hurt going into the conference finals they still go toe to toe with the spurs and lose that series which involves Kly locking rust at the rim at the end of game six one of the greatest defensive plays in the last 20 years then Katie gets hurt Katie and Russ are hurt the next year twenty sixteen is the warriors in the Clay Thompson avalanche and then Katie leaves in 2016 in the next what is that nine seasons

how many play of series do you think Russell Westbrook's team is one oh he's the answer like one or zero two and I'm not just to be clear that's not putting that on Russ I the point is he never he never A became one of the top five players in the league who could like lead a team I guess he was one of the top players because he was MVP first team all NBA but never like was able never had the right team where he could be the guy on a great team yes

and he was in this incredible circumstance with the rant where the two of them were so powerful

“together and the rant was the better player but Russ complimented him well enough I think”

underrated actually it's definitely because there was so much talk about the friction between their games and his rush shooting too much Rust definitely shot too much in his career fine like that doesn't need to be litigated and then like it just sort of like Oklahoma City was in this

purgatory they got Paul George they lost in the first round twice and he just never kind of

found his way to the right team and I think ultimately you know the two the two series that they won by the were in the bubble when he was with the rockets the beat Oklahoma City in the first round and then one of the great sort of fun revenge series of all time was when he was with the nuggets in 2025 and they beat the clippers of the first round at Russ was gaining on the remitting text and clowning them in the last game but it's obviously the great what if in Oklahoma City and the other

him at the peak of his career and just kind of went away and with that went his career at the top of the league and in the biggest stages it was not only a very comfortable shot it was his shot like he called it his cotton shot like the thing that is like reliable lay up frequency for him like that that was the counterbalance to everything in terms of the explosion to the rim and who he could be as a full court athlete and who he was is like a really underrated playmaker out of that kind of

“gravity like I I love watching Russ play and I think one of one of the weirdness one of the”

weirdest parts of that latter half journey as he found his way to the wizards and the kings and the clippers and the nuggets and all these various stops where he that kind of were out his welcome at almost all of them because he wasn't the player he used to be because of kind of the caveats in the quirks of his game but we just started talking about all of that stuff all the time with Russ every time he came to a new team it was like okay that's cool but let's pour the cold water

on this before anyone gets too excited about adding the MVP and I feel like in doing that we've spent the last six seven years just talking about all of his flaws talking about all his limitations

when the reality is like Russ a Westbrook is and has been a player where if you if you talk to

other players in the league they rave about him and I like I find that players rave about guys mostly when they have something that they don't like you get an NBA player talking about Kyrie Irvings handle and it's like they can't even comprehend it right and that's when you know it's on a different level when other pros are raving about this other pros rave about Russ a Westbrook spirit all the time and the energy and the kiva shit factor and the care and the explosive

way that he would play every single game and it's like Kyrie Irving has something that those guys don't Steph Curry has something those guys don't Russ a Westbrook has something that those guys don't and we just got we got so bogged down in the narrativeizing and the caveats and who he couldn't be then like I feel like it is a real shame that we kind of lost sight of some of that over the last six or seven years. Well look I mean what you're really talking about in the

last seven or eight years of his career was he could never figure out how to be an effective golf ball

player on offense and was no longer athletic and good enough to be the number one on ball player on offense and that left him just constantly in this weird zone of trying to fit in on an elite team as the number two guy but not being able to do the kind of stuff that number two guys typically have to do to his credit he was so athletic and so ferocious that particularly with the rockets

“he made it work fairly well next to Hardin who like I'll never forget like when that trade happened”

that's the same summer Paul George is traded from the thunder to the clipper is like the thunder broke it down geniusly and the rust was the second step there I mean I don't know that let's put it this way I was with rockets people all out there in that summer league I don't think the rockets ever really thought that was a great idea like to trade Chris Paul for Russell Westburg I think that was with with with two picks I think that was a hard and driven compromise that everyone had

to sort of stomach and make the best of and rust like made that like when they would play five out and they had to eventually play completely five out because of rust because he was effective of like having another center on the floor offensively they kind of made it work but I think like when he was at the absolute peak of his athleticism and power and the jump shot was reliable enough and the finishing at the rim which really declined at the end of his career to the point

“remember there were like rumors that he was having a hand in if you and all that”

he was such a handful not a handful he was impossible to deal with in my flashball memory of that would be would be um spurs thunder 2014 and remember the thunder like had this spurs number in most of those playout series like 2012 they went for straight against some 26 they unseat the Lamarka soldier's team um the 65 win team and they won a lot of hands at the tip the spurs I remember covering that series and the spurs coaches halfway through just did

not know what to do with rust like dude just like this guy they were guarding in with dandy green because they wanted kawaii on to rant and I remember talking about those matchups with some of their coaches on off days and what they ended up doing was putting kawaii on to rust they switched halfway through the series they put kawaii on rust because they were like we just have to keep

just do out of the lane and he's so powerful that yeah you can sit here and pick his decision-making,

his freneticism, whatever but like if dandy green goes under a screen and there's rust should a jumper he's dead like rust is just getting to the basket and he got to the rim so easily that it made him almost a better passer than he would have been just sort of naturally because everyone had to

dandy green on Kevin Durant because they could not slow it down wrong they they like despite the turnover is the shot selection whatever he was just tearing them apart so completely that they just they were like frightened of him and he was a real frightening player and to the point about

his spirit his athleticism the my favorite rust plays and look I know I was never a big rust guy

I'm not gonna see her in front like I was his his like I didn't vote him MVP in 2017 I voted for kawaii I knew I was going to be made fun of for it sure enough deadspin wrote a whole piece by house stupid I was the vote for kawaii there there was always this thing though like yeah I

“thought rust was a little bit overrated that doesn't mean I think he's bad like there was just”

this no in between with him you either thought he was the best or you were a hater but the point is the the plays that will define rust for me you can go watch the highlights the steel and the incredible and one against the lakers dunk so on kawaii all of it the offensive rebound's were always the thing that just like I would they were like he just had a knack for the total gut punch take the air out of the other team like we just worked so hard to stop Durant and hardened

and this freaking blur just came in got this offensive rebound saved it you get another possession

like those were always my when when you talk about the effort and the nationality those were always

the plays that stood out for me the most of like this guy just will not stop yes just it just like took your will with some of those plays and like you're right that the competitive peak of that was certainly with the thunder team that went to the finals but I think for me and for I would imagine a lot of people when you imagine the platonic ideal rust the west brick in your head when you're thinking back on his career it is like that 2017 era I would say specifically the game where he

set the triple double record against the number in Denver Denver's like fighting for its playoff life and Russell Westbrook is just going going going 50 piece game winner from the hash mark triple double record all in one night absolutely mobbed by the team and it was just like that is who

Russ will always be to me he has all the other stuff too he has all the catches he has all the caveats he had

the kind of like slow decline of his game over time in the mid range and the finishing and the defense that we've already talked about but he was also the guy who I'm so glad you wrote that spurs example because so much of the question earlier when Russ is like fully in superstar form about like how do you build a team around this guy who do we want around time all the hand ringing over like the Andre Robertsons of the world and whether they can get enough shots

the subtext of all those questions is Russell Westbrook is blowing our shit up how do we have enough people who can just like carry you water around him to make this worthwhile and there was

“a period of time where I think that made absolute sense and then there's this later period where”

as you would do he never quite adapted in the way that aging stars need to adapt and it turned it into a totally different conversation well and he's also like I mentioned the two playoffs series since during our left like he's also the the ones that they lost to Utah and Portland with the Paul George Rust team's Oklahoma City those were pretty those losses sort of spoke pretty loudly about okay this this post-KD team is going to work like it's just not working

after that it's like all the wizards lose to the sixers well of course they do Russ was amazing for the wizards or like the clippers are decimated by injuries they lose to the sons in the first rally none of those have like anything to do with Russell Westbrook really um but the point about him blowing stuff up I remember I wrote about this at ESPN toward the end of his time with the rant in Oklahoma City the last couple of years and I remember talking most

heavily to Nick Colson about it still works for the thunder if you looked at all the data those teams gradually took what was like a 50/50 ball handling split between Durant and Westbrook this is after hardened and made it like 65/35 to Westbrook and part of it was Durant is such a malleable player he can do everything like he can space the floor and Russ can't he can curl around screens and take jump shots and cut and stuff that Russ wasn't as good at

or wasn't as willing to do but part of it was also that Russ had advanced so much as a playmaker

“that the thunder I think tried their best to like set a spread-picking role kind of attack”

around Russ's physical dominance and speed and Nick Colson would talk to me about it like on the record would say like yeah we want Kevin attacking close-out and we want the ball at Russ's hands that's kind of what we're envisioning and he just they just didn't have like the spacing on the wing or with their big men to really really space the floor in a way that would have unleashed him as a spread-picking role just like alpha guy and I mean they were still

awesome and they could have very well made the finals and won the championship in 2013 in your one

points again last year for the Kings but still like 15 points again is is not nothing like

he can still do a lot of the stuff that he does and like I said he retired his fifth and his sixth sixteenth in points I still would put him in the point card rankings I did this a little bit with Chris Paul when he got cut by the clippers he's still behind Steph magic Oscar Isaiah Thomas

“Chris Paul stocked in kid Nash I think I would still have all over Russ but he's right he's”

pretty near the tail of under that group like he's he's on par with some of those guys and I think probably above anyone else although there are still some guys coming I don't know maybe I'm underrating him but that's where I am I could see the argument especially as early as the guys like CP who have like interesting resumes but comparable ones in terms of overall achievement

and never quite reach the MVP highs that Russ did but this is where he really could have used a

Chris Paul style for you know second or third act that really stuck something more than I think I think the wizard's stint was probably kind of the high water mark of who he was post thunder other than like I think the rockets to me are kind of inclusive of that but after that he never really had that kind of like put his foot down established roots anywhere be something meaningful to one of these teams beyond a one-year rental kind of formula it's a shame that it turned out that way but

“I think we're always gonna think about the 2012 team and who they could have been and like that's”

clearly one of the dividing points of NBA history whether that team stays together or not but I also think in the sliding door that we ended up with like this is the reality I want to live in the one where Russell Westbrook became MVP Russell Westbrook where James Harden got to explore the full reaches of his game warts and all like those three guys would have been awesome to watch together over a really long-term and grow together but I'm glad to have seen who they were and who

they've been independently too. By the way mentioned 2012 finals off the top I'm not sure it's the best game of Russell's career given the stakes four to three points in game four that series 20 of 32 from the field uh 20 of 29 on two it's like one of the alternate they lose the game they lose the series but one of the best games of Russell's career. Alright Rob Mahoney you're back in the saddle we're back in the saddle we're not swimming in cold water and Northern Europe anymore

“what's what do we got coming up from you what do we even do now we got like in the past”

TV series seasons would be starting that little mass now it's just I don't know what's going gone where what's the next show on the bucket for you guys well you know we're using into I guess like free free training camp at this point for the NBA so there's still a minute good the good news is slow horses is almost back are you a slow horse is person's act

I was I've watched the first two my it's just my wife wouldn't do it it's two tens it's two

violence two tens two tens is it really intensity if every like dramatic plot is undercut by a Gary Oldman a fart joke no or it the holes in his socks well it too but you know like it was season one was about like a kidnapping and like yeah it's pretty intense and so I watched a couple seasons when she was on a work trip for a while and I just don't have time to I did squeeze in house of the dragon though I'm not really sure how I did that I just I thought I was going to do that and uh

I don't know if it's good or not but I enjoyed the hell out of it it was fun and you like a gun like sunfire herself you're you are risen in your house of the dragon fandom and watching so welcome back it wasn't the I'm a the I'm alive meme it's it's very good and that was funny the funniest part is when he called this I get all the Targaryens mixed up a gun, Aiman, Daman, Daren, Daman that would go with the hell they are when he tells us when he calls us

brother I'm a soul that's a great like I'm a soul as a word I would like to use in my regular life if I wrap my home you are certainly not an episode thank you for joining us and we'll talk to you soon thanks I appreciate it all right nothing I like better to do when severely jet lagged and talking about financial products I don't understand James Suir Wikki is here I read him in the New Yorker for 17 years when he wrote the financial page for them he teaches it Yale he wrote a book called

the Wisdom of Crowds and it's fitting I'm having you on because I discovered you're writing during the housing crisis in 2008 when I was a reporter at a magazine called American lawyer and I all of a sudden had to understand what the hell the mortgage back security was what the hell the credit default swap was and I realized I was completely financially illiterate when it came to understanding any of these things and you helped me understand them you also helped me

realize like I'm actually kind of okay being financially illiterate when it comes to these products that are almost like I don't really understand and don't really hope to understand what they are and they just seem kind of like a tool for rich people to get more rich but you didn't help me

highlighted by the sale of the Lakers from Mark Walter who is under investigation for stuff that I didn't really understand before I started reading more about it but also even for at a valuation of $12.5 billion to Bob Iger and Josh Kushner, brother of Jared Kushner even though no one seems to think they have enough money to buy a team priced at that but I want to zoom out

“there's been a bunch of team sales in the NBA and I think a third of teams have been sold”

in like the last five years the wolves change controlling ownership while I was on vacation in Europe in addition to the Lakers and the prices are now reaching a point so large for the bulk of the teams that it's the the number of people who can actually afford them even if you go in tandem is reaching such a limited number that you're going to have sovereign well funds coming in and private equity funds coming in and all of this is making me think and I want to start here

is this changing like something about the soul of sports and how sports has been this sort of

hybrid of they've always been corporations and companies but they're also somewhat of a public good

and they were owned by people who had ties to in some cases the city that they were in and now there are these financial investments that are flipping and changing hands as a sports fan is this is this new or are we overreacting like and by overacting I mean one of the financial issues is like owner's billionaires you know gouging the public to pay for their arenas and like the book field of schemes which is the the book about that is like 20 years old so in some sense it's not

of this is new but it feels new does it feel new to you I think there are two things that feel new then the liquor sale in particular I think feels new simply because of how short the period was that TWG global which is the Mark Walter company how short the period was that they held it I mean I may be wrong but I think the deal that deal when they bought majority stake in the company in the lakers that field didn't close until like maybe October 2025 so that's less than a year

for them to flip it and obviously they were able to flip it for assuming that you'll go through it'll be for you know about $2.5 billion more 25% return which is a nice return for a year but that does feel unusual right it's unusual to buy an asset like the lakers and then all of a sudden

“turn around and sell it the the other thing that feels new and I think is probably more important”

than is connected to what you were saying is that historically I think we have thought of franchises as being owned by individual owners and certainly in the leagues themselves I mean the NFL I think still has some kind of rule that essentially you kind of need like the equivalent of an individual owner who's going to buy it and in the NBA the there needs to be a controlling owner controlling

governor essentially and all that but the reality is that the franchise values now are so high

that as you said it's close to impossible for any one person to buy a franchise on their own there's some exceptions Elon Musk could obviously buy as many franchises as they wanted Jeff Bezos probably could Steve Balmer interestingly enough probably could you know if he if he so could buy another one if he wanted but in some ways I was thinking about it and I was like Steve Cohen's purchase of the meds might be the last time someone just winning and bought a franchise

“essentially paying cash I mean Cohen I think bought like 95% of that company of the meds by himself”

and that might be the last time that that happened and then the question then becomes as you said so what does that mean does that change the relationship of team of owners to teams in the life

my suspicion is that in a lot of ways it won't change that much that owners have always wanted

as you said field of schemes which is about owners attempts to get a you know local governance to pay for their their stadiums that's something that's been going on for a long time and I do think that the kind of celebrity aspect of owning a team will remain important in terms of why people want to buy them but I do think that as more and more teams are owned by consortiums are owned by people who are have backgrounds in private equity that you are going to

see a much more profit maximizing model that's going to be operating in terms of like ticket sales how stadiums get renovated in order to maximize you know seeds for rich people or luxury boxes or et cetera and and so I do think you probably are going to see more of a bottom line emphasis than maybe historically has been the case now whether or not that is better good is

not the right word I think it's just going to be a much more capitalist emphasis on the way teams

“are running well while they're started doing a lot of that during his very brief and glorious ownership”

of the lakeers moving the press seats out of the the lower not the lower but the really closer the court and and cutting costs and laying off people and then bringing in some Dodgers people who that will know what's going to happen with that now with the Dodgers and obviously Tom Dundit in Portland has just gone scorched earth in every possible way since he bought the blazers somewhat recently so a couple of things you mentioned you use the word consortium and it's like

the bus family drama that is unfolding is a subplot of the lake or sale with Genie bus wanting to retain governorship for as long as she can and her siblings the other five of them uniting against her to sell the rest of their stake as part of the tag along to the Kushner Agresale. On the one hand I'm like all of this all of this stuff Dundin bomber and the Quy investigation the lakeers sale the wolves flipping hands again is like unbecoming to me

in a way for the NBA because of how we've all conceived of sports but the bus thing in particular when I was thinking more about it's like it is unbecoming like I'm tired of I'm so tough we're like 20 years into the bus siblings fighting with each other over their little toy that their father bequeath them and it's a little unbecoming but it's also charming in a way because it's like this was a family on team the family and the drama of the family was sort of part of the

lakeers because of the connection to Jerry bus who was the architect of the lakeers the architect of Showtime the guy brought the glitz in the glamour in the women in the Los Angeles of everything to the lakeers and I'm kind of going to miss that and then these consortiums come in and it's not just a consortium of like individual rich human beings which is like we've seen with the Milwaukee books most famously it's not that easy to get like four billionaires together to buy a team

because someone is going to want to be the guy and if it's unclear who the guy is that results in infighting that can kind of poison a team it's consortiums of humans and funds that no one really understands like I don't even I'm not even sure where this lakeers money is coming from I don't know if you have any insight into that but I don't think anyone really but like Eiger and Kushner

clearly do not have 12.5 billion dollars I don't think yeah no I think it's it's an interesting

question because that was even true of the lakeers sale to Walter and to TWG Global so where exactly was all of the TWG Global money coming from and I still think we don't quite know you're a former colleague at ESPN but I'm wind horse was talking for a long time about for a while about the fact that TWG Global had gotten this big investment from the Abu Dhabi sovereign wealth fund in like April of 2025 shortly before it got the lakeers and he was saying you know that money kind of went there and then

“somebody I guess affiliated with with TWG said no that's not true you should stop saying that the”

money came from Mark Walter himself but when you did the math it was a little hard to figure out where

did Mark Walter get that money did he really have in this case it was like 5 billion did he have

5 billion on his own to come up with and we still don't entirely know I think where that's the case in the case of thrive what's it called thrive eternal is that it's good that's Kushner's fund yeah venture fund you know I mean that company made a lot of big investments in SpaceX and AI companies and drop it and and so depending there and they had had some kind of liquidity that it would be able to sell those off the wanted although these surprises would but yeah we don't we don't really know

and I mean another example would be the Celtics so when the Celtics were sold over 6.1 billion a good chunk of that money came from 6.3 which is an investment fund and and I think they provided 15.16% and the NBA has all these rules restricting how what percentage an investment fund can put into a company into a franchise and it also requires that the controlling owner invest more than the investment fund does and so that deal was structured in such a way that

“build chism who is the owner of the team had to invest more than 6.3 but I think it was actually like”

deferred until 2028 so there are all these complicated financial engineering mechanisms that I think are going to have to you know be done I think one of the funny questions though is when you think about it is are we going to and this is connected to what you said about the buses are we going to long for the era of not just of an individual and but are we going to sort of wish that Steve Cohen he can just come in and buy the medicine he can do whatever he wants with

best job whatever rather than having these like complicated ownership structures and consortiums

“and I think the league is going to have but all the league sorry all the sports leagues are really”

going to be wrestling with these questions um because right now the controlling owner thing is a little bit of a fiction I mean you know it's like gini bus was going to be the NBA's governor I mean was an electric governor for the NBA even though she owned a tiny fraction of the team and so what does that really mean and I think that that's those are the kinds of questions that are going to be going forward more and more. Yeah the gini but the bus thing is is part of the

reason I've kind of stopped caring about it is because like cool you want to remain the governor for four years on paper like I actually don't believe that you're going to be the governor in any real way once you own such a small stake in the team and I grew in Kushner a bot like it's it's great one way whether it's now or in four years you're not going to be the governor of the team

“something just feels a little different about and look this is all it all lays bear it as it has”

always been this is just big business Adam Silver's job is to help the owners make more money

team valuations keep skyrocketing like this is all just how business works but sports has always existed in this liminal world where it's like part capitalist business part public good or at least conceived of as a public good with real it exists as a profitable business because of ties to fans and cities who support the team and this does feel sort of different and the leakers one is always going to be the headliner and so Mark Walter and his group by the team and then they flip it a

year later while he's under federal investigation for I mean I read while I was on vacation I read 40 different stories analyzing what it is that Mark Walter is alleged to have done and I only sort of half understand it my very very zoomed out understanding is that his fund or his entity whatever whatever what it is bought up a lot of life insurance companies and then had those companies take premium payments that the customers make and invested that money either

loaning it to other companies that Mark Walter owns or controls or investing it in other places that Mark Walter owns or controls and really just didn't properly disclose the intermingling of these loans that are going from one Mark Walter control business to another is that is that

basically what happened it like I just I started reading I started reading you 25 years ago

or just 20 years ago because I just didn't understand any of this and I'm like all of this it I don't it it it the populist that's in me just gets angry reading about all this because I'm like what why is this have to be so complicated is it just complicated because rich people have made it intentionally complicated like here's this this is from the newer times this is literally a sentence in the New York Times about Mark Walter like from three days ago their investments

however can be nearly impossible for a lay person to follow an organizational chart in a regulatory filing for Delaware life one of the insurers that Mr. Walter's conglomerate owns publicly lists about 150 related entities Mr. Walter himself is at the top of the list some operate out of the same officer dresses and you have this money being passed through show companies that are formed just for the purposes of that passing money like just like this all I don't understand it just it just

all feels like rich people inventing ways to get more rich and trick people I don't know about tricking people although that is certainly what the is that issue in this particular case but definitely

“they're they have invented different ways to get more rich and I think you know you mentioned”

the housing crisis near the beginning and the interesting thing is that this really all goes back to the housing crisis so one of the things that happened in the wake of the housing crisis was that regulations on the kinds of loans banks could make got tough and so people who are looking for other sources of capital started to look in other places and one of the places they looked was life insurance companies because life insurance companies have really huge amounts

of the assets that people have given them in premiums or in the case of the companies that are an issue here on the new it is so weirdly well not weirdly but the companies that mark Walter's controls or who can I partners controls that are an issue in this investigation are not they don't actually sell life insurance they sell the new it is you know people give them money and then they get essentially income going forward until they die or whatever but so with the way life insurance

works the reason it's a business is that life insurance take the money that you give them and then they invest and they essentially that's the big they make the big on the difference

if they do a good enough job of investing they not only can pay you back or pay out your insurance

“policy or your your a new ity but they can also become you know very profitable anymore”

Buffet did this I mean Warren Buffet owns Geico because Geico gave him a big chunk of capital he could use to invest so there's nothing illegal about there there's nothing even dubious about but the the problem becomes when companies ensures use that money and maybe invest it in either assets that are really risky which opens up the possibility that when you come to them and you say I want you to my dad died I need the insurance and they're like sorry we don't have it

because we lost it investing something so there's that issue and then the second issue which is

connected is if they invest it in assets that are owned by either their own owner or companies that are connected to them in one way or another and that's that are these that's these affiliated transactions right and the problem there is those investments might be risky or they might not they might just not get a good price for them right because their boss like don't worry about the price just just do this deal and so the the thing that is that issue in the Mark Walter

Investigation is the allegation is well I'm really an allegation we know this happened that these two insured insurers that Guggenheim partners which is his big investment firm owns that they reported that they had they had made all these investments in mostly loans essentially and that they had said those loans were to non-related or non-opiliate partners or whatever you

want to call it and the reality is that a big chunk of that money was actually going to companies

that were one way or another affiliated with them with Guggenheim partners with all these other plans so in the case of Delaware Life which is one of the two companies initially they have reported that only 3% of their total invested assets were going to these affiliate were in affiliated companies and after they after the investment investigation started they restated their financial statements and they said that 42% so that's a huge difference basically right let me ask you a

dumb question sure what what is gained by cloaking intermingled loans and investments that way is it just it makes you look like you have more money than you do because of like what is the point of doing that yeah it doesn't make you look like you have more money than you do but there are two things one is that ensure insurance commissioners and also rating agencies are concerned about things like how much of your money is invested in companies that are connected

to you and they typically have standards they're not necessarily like legally binding standards they typically have standards that say you know you can only have up to I think the base standards often like 10% of your of your income because they're concerned that those affiliated investments again might either be too risky or that they might you just might not be getting the right price for them right you're like doing business with yourself and so as a result you're

“maybe like taking a lower price than you should on the asset or whatever and that's bad because”

it maybe makes your long-term future less less solid the the other issue is that and this is probably this is important from the balance sheet perspective is that because those investments in affiliated transactions are seen as riskier you have to put more capital aside the insurance put more capital aside so what I mean by that sorry I don't want to get too wanty but no go go for it

but basically with an insurance company regulators require them to set a certain amount of capital aside

right you can't invest just has to be set aside as a kind of cushion to protect you against losses in your investments and when you're making not affiliated investments you know which like say you're out of buying bonds in a company or your buying government bonds that's probably made save things that

“insurance companies have mostly invested in you have to set less capital aside like literally as a”

multiplier of the amount of your investments if with affiliated transactions you have to set more capital aside the more capital you set aside the less capital you have to invest and so that's the basic reason right that would be the reason one reason to do it is that it allows you to invest more

logical reason why you'd want to pretend that these investments were not affiliated when in fact they

actually moved um where where does this end from Mark Walter like he's already sold the lakers he's reportedly trying to sell his stake in Chelsea everyone is panicked about the Dodgers slash making fun of the Dodgers like oh did you buy these two world series with fake money I don't care about that I just think is a bad fan it's kind of funny like what is there

“is there a potential criminal case here are the Dodgers at risk like when I saw I think it was Derek”

Thompson on bills podcast called this like the Canary and the coal mine I don't know if that's hyper believe it but like where where does this end for him and does it have any implications anywhere else I don't know I think it's really interesting we don't we don't really know where it's going to end and I think uh but I think there are a few things that are interesting about it um the first is that there was a lawsuit filed in 2014 against douganine partners and affiliated insurers

alleging that essentially saying that Walter and douganine partners had used insurer money to buy the Dodgers basically about half of the Dodgers, uh half of the purchase prices

is about a billion dollars and um there was actually an interview that Todd Bowley who is one of

Walter's partners and and uh he's a co-owner of the Dodgers he did with the LA times um in the course of that article where the times actually said that that was where a big chunk of the money came from that actually Walter and Bowley had both only put up like 100 million of keys and that um about a billion of it had come from uh from the insurers again not necessarily illegal especially if you think about the Dodgers as a long-term valuable investment etc etc but nonetheless

kind of kind of interesting so I think one of the questions uh is not so much about like will this end up meaning it yes or so with Dodgers but are we going to see more of this going forward or is this going to be a point where people say okay no no no no we have to really rethink how we are allowing what investment funds we are allowing to invest we are money can come from and and the life um TWG global came out today with a big a statement pretty like

full-throwed in statement saying um that they were not going to sell the Dodgers that they were not on the market they were not going to sell the formula one team they all and they were not going to sell there was one other thing oh I can't remember what the other one was although they didn't mention Chelsea so that I think means it's probably is on the market um and they also didn't

“mention is the spot I can't remember the sparks part of the LA lake or deal I believe no they're”

not part of the lake or deal okay so they didn't mention the sparks so maybe the sparks are on the market as well um I think the big challenge right now and what we don't fully understand is that in order to remedy the situation with these insurers uh a lot of these uh the the billions in affiliated transactions they essentially have to be replaced by non-affiliated assets and so TWG global which again is the kind of holding company for Walters assets in like AI and sports and

other things they have already said they were going to buy like six they were essentially trade

$6.5 billion of non-affiliated assets for the affiliated assets that uh that the insurance one

of the insurance companies own so that's like maybe a third of what's at stake and people are wondering and we don't really know like the Mark Walters sell the lakers to essentially take that money and essentially trade it back we don't really know if that's true um we don't know if he's going to have to sell the Dodgers who could probably go for what I don't know seven billion it's just why I don't know what they would sell for but we'll he have to do that he says he says it's not going to

you know in theory criminal charges are potentially I guess on the on the the docket I mean you know the Department of Justice under Trump has not been that aggressive about pursuing white collar crime but no it's it's but it is I guess conceivable um but what T.O.G. Global said today was that they made it sound like they are kind of in the process of really you know dealing with this with the Delaware insurance regulators and the like and they were trying to make it seem like

“everything will be fine uh I think we don't really know I think you're saying other”

interesting questions for the MDAs like are they going to need to do a better job of betting on like is this going to be something I mean I don't know what you said yes yes they do and but it's it's like not only vetting owners but I think the fans are owed an understanding of like

who do I get mad at if I want to like I'm a meds fan I can blame Steve corn for everything it's

“easy for me like I know I can direct my anger but there needs to be a little bit of transparency”

into like what is going I I shouldn't have to have you on this podcast to help me figure out who the hell bought the Celtics like where did the money come from or who the hell is buying the link is to what you said we don't know how this is going to end and it's some respects and like what are like why we don't know why exactly for sure Mark Walter sold flavors one thing I do know for sure is he did not buy the Lakers a year ago with the intent

on flipping them so something is obviously fishy like you don't do that and it's all all these people from the Dodgers if in the back of your head even in this world where sports are just treated like a for profit enterprise like every other business you don't do that if you're going to flip it in a year that's not by people buy the Lakers they buy the Lakers to sit outside to be the king of Los Angeles and win championships and all of that yeah yeah yeah yeah

I mean one thing about that yeah I mean you know the the game obviously 2.5 billion dollars you know whoa

“that's in terms of that's how much more he's going to have made in a year it sounds like a lot but”

you know 25% it's it's not it's a great return for a year but it's not and I'll stand it's not a sounding return right I'm sure I'd have to go back and look but I'm sure if you'd put the money into Nvidia stock it would have returned a lot more than that so yeah I agree he would not have done that and the other one of the things that's worth keeping in mind that is a little is interesting to think about is that Walter was actually I think by all indications or let's whatever it is 2.9

baseball management was the technical owner of the of the was the technical owner of the Dodgers by all indications they did a great job of building the franchise value and they invested in the team you know they had great advantages that other teams did not have because of the the the the vagaries of the Lakers TV deal that came out of the bankruptcy that that was the reason they were able to buy the team but you know they were long-term investors I think they really did operate

with the mindset that if you make the franchise incredibly valuable from a on field point of view you're going to increase the value of the the off field the value of the franchise as well so on the one hand you were like okay great it was a great owner and I but I think that also does make the idea that he bought the Lakers and thinking he might flip it seemed totally in problem like there's no question he must have been thinking he was going to do the same thing and that

does tell you that something pretty radical had to change and I think you bring up a good point about the Dodgers success because you you opened on this on this episode by talking about the fan about teams operating much more as for profit enterprises and what and what does that mean for fans who are still the backbone of how the the whole enterprise fails to exist without fans in droves in millions supporting the team on television in person by merchandise whatever it

is and I wonder like for the Dodgers it's been objectively like success like when the team wins all fans are happy but as as a participatory experience have I don't know it at the answer to this

“have Dodgers fans one like it's the team accessible and that that's what this is all about like can”

I go to a game can I afford to go to a game is it easy to watch my team on television or on streaming services or how much is that cost me there's an accessibility I think that is being a little bit clouded by all this but when the team wins fans feel happy no matter what but what happens if the teams don't win most teams don't win you know is there is there something that's lost for fans no I mean I think the accessibility question just in terms of access to tickets specifically is

it's already a really big issue and it's only going to become more so going forward I think it I mean I was thinking talking about someone about this yesterday about the US Open and how much more expensive US Open tickets are tennis tickets are even then they were how about a drink at the US Open I want one of those stupid whatever one of the stupid cocktails they have with you is open it's like

it's okay here's a hundred dollars I have a drink no I mean and you know and the reality is

look this isn't just sports I mean live entertainment of all kinds right concert tickets they were all basically become the same I mean the price has skyrocketed because demand for live events is very strong it's one of the few things that's not replaceable that's not easily substitutable and and so teams and concert venues and the like are just are essentially taking advantage of that but but I do think it is you are ending up with this very peculiar situation where sports are

simultaneously arguably more popular than ever or certainly more popular than almost anything else and yet it feels like they're becoming more and more narrowly accessible only to a more

and then I think the other side that's going to develop going forward as you mentioned is like

what about streaming rights and the like are we going to end up I mean we're already seeing it was Sunday ticket the NFL are we going to have to pay more and more and more in order to just be able to watch games and that's where I think this collision you're really diagnosing between teams as capitalist enterprises and then teams as public goods that's really where you're seeing this

“this collision is going to become I think increasingly important with your favorite”

NBA team I don't know that I really have one I mean I I grew up a I grew up a

Nick's fans who I kind of became a Nick's fan like again when this happened I'm you know I'm I live in New Haven so obviously was this kind of thing where everybody just sort of bought into it but my my the team I kind of love the most honestly is the nuggets because of the old age but that's a team that that's a really interesting example where you have a team that

“it feels like in some ways has been kind of mismanaged financially and you know they're”

going to end up with maybe one title as a result even though they have the best player in the world so James it's it's super exciting for me to have you on I miss the New Yorker I mean how many words was that combo is one page well I'm going to guess it was like a thousand like 50 950 to a thousand words it was great length right it was really great it was but it's to squeeze the subject matter you did into that when I and do it every week and every issue was just it was my favorite it became my favorite thing

“in the magazine you contribute to the Atlantic still people can read you there you teach you”

Yale people should buy your book the wisdom of crowds it's it I've just been reading you for so long because you've been helping me be less of an idiot it's it's great to have you on and I know you're busy I appreciate your time James so we're a wiki thanks buddy. Thanks for having me on I really appreciate that all right that's it for today's edition of the Zack low show thanks to Rob Mahoney thanks to James

Sir Wiki thanks to Mike Billy and Jonathan as always on production and thanks to you all for listening to

and/or watching the Zack low show we'll be back either later this week early next week depending on news and all sorts of other things we'll see you then 21 or over in president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 and over in president and DC can tuck your Wyoming gambling problem a 1 800 gambler or 1 800 my reset call 1 888 789 777 777 or visit ccpg.org/chat and Connecticut or is it md gambling help.org and Maryland hope is here visit gambling help line ma.org or call

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