Giro d'Italia 2026 Review Live From the Wattage Festival w/Bradley Wiggins | THEMOVE

It's been it looks like it's been effort that's for him in many ways and I was just saying before I wonder how this is gonna set him up for July This is this is the best Jonas finger that we've seen over the last few years since he won the tour, I would say Hey, everybody, welcome back to the move. I'm Spencer Martin. I'm here with Johan Bernal. We are breaking down stage 21 of this year to tell you It's just wrapped up a little bit different episode today. We already recorded it like as you're to tell you a big picture

Wrap up with Bradley Wiggins. We were live in Belgium in an Ostenda on the coast beautiful Belgian coast Johan and I just caught the train back to Brussels before we fly home to Marble. We wanted to update everyone on the stage because we recorded that show before the stage occurred. It was won by Jonathan Malon with Giovanni Le Nardo

Le Nardo, Le Nardi in second

Who didn't see that coming and then Paul Pinho in third Dylan growing kind of making him fourth palm on yay was in great position But he got a little boxed in and sat up. He really had nothing to sprint for. He was in 11th But Johan, do you want to get people just a brief background on where we recorded that live show and what have been we were at? Yeah, so we spent the last three days together Spencer with you and Bradley In Belgium, Ostenda. So there's an event called

Wattage, Wheeler Wattage Festival First night was a Gallaud dinner And then today there were several shows all cycling related shows on the on the set there We were one of the invited shows. So thanks to Ruben Van Gogh for inviting the move

The first time ever we were in full of our live audience outside of the US

“Yeah, I think it was very nice Spencer. What do you think?”

You know, it was a really nice setup and Having I mean, for me it was a bit awkward to sit there and speak in English Flamish crowd, but I think I think it went well It was different experience, but I hope that you know the people we're going to see this Life show after this year after this small brief analysis of stage 21. I think everybody will like it. What did you think?

I was super impressed. I thought it was a really well done event obviously from like going there They had great concessions like would recommend going but from try you know trying to record a live podcast outside Away from home that stress inducing and they really had it set up well. I was pretty blown away by You know, they had us in this little private clubhouse where up there talking to Tom Duma-Lon And then a golf cart whisk us to the back of the stage where on

It was a little funny speaking English in Belgium

“Your home country, but I think we made it work. I'm glad I was it kind of sunk in”

And like, wow, people really are investing time into this like this sitting here on this nice day Watch and as tip jab about this year to tie us, so that was very cool to get to see the people in real life Yeah, yeah, I was it was cool. I was for me also nice to see you know all friends I met I met somebody who I raised with in cadets As a 15 year old and we were even schoolmates. We went to school together

Like in primary school, so He was actually also a guest there. He was a guest speaker. He's a professor in sports economics at the University of Loven Well, who's his name? It's his name is Wim Laga Okay, Wim Laga. I wrote he wrote a book. He wrote a book about economics and sports and teaches teaches sports economics there And many other people we saw so so it was nice and it was nice to see Bradley and get this take on the on the zero

“Yeah, I think it was super super super exciting to be there and”

We'll probably go back next year. Yeah. Well, that's not going to let's see the contract before the scene But they can offer it was it's like we're doing our own jeer to tie it. We had we got to get the crew together Get the engine revved up for the two of the fronts get Bradley back in the mix, but You know on what did you so what did you think about this friend? We we were full disclosure. We we missed our train. We had to give another train

We're changing trains all over flanders beautiful flanders, by the way, how the housing stock in west flanders looks incredible

I'm blown away by it ready to move there, but we watch this stage and there was some breakways was strong writers Who I thought would go for the sprint like they went through the intermediate sprint and he just kept it rolling and he was off the front

I'm ready for this to be done. I'm getting to the finish. It's fast as I can because then Ghana attacked out that a very strong attack Mark perfectly by Mateo Cabrero and yes, bestoy then one is from little track once from sit all quick step So of course they just sat on his wheel and he just kept pushing like All right, you guys are going to sit there. I'm going to pretend like you don't exist. They get caught in the final few kilometers and then so it all quick step at a great lead out Yeah, unabed unabed unabed. They had a strong lead out, but they get kind of get to this it's more uphill than you think. It's about 5% for the last 500 meters

And Jonathan Milan pops out of both of their wheels and just destroys them. You looked at him in this sprint. You think there's no way this guy loses his sprint ever like Yeah, I want to stage so far. I mean listen, it's it's still Jonathan Milan, you know, so strong rider obviously today there was no contest who was the strongest sprinter

“I think Paul Manier was brought perfectly in position as soon as he saw that he didn't have the necessary power to sprint he kind of gave up”

Not going to say he set up, but he gave up on the stage

And listen, well done for Milan for staying in the race for keep trying and finally get that stage

It's it's a kind of it softened softened the the the disappointing zero that little track had a bit It's not easy to in a stage, but I'm sure he came for more than one stage and he came for the Chicano jersey didn't accomplish that, but still It shows what kind of quality rider Milan is and how strong Of an athlete he is more than just a sprinter, you know, being definitely not at the end of his resources at the end of this year

“So that's why difference between him and the rest was so big and then also Spencer you know the typical kind of surprising result of some riders in the last bunch of a ground tour”

Paul Penwet and Lomardi who we have never seen in any of those sprints in the top five or even close to that now all of a sudden show up

Then that's the happen, that's the happen, sometimes we get strange results Sometimes we've got an really unexpected winner in the last stage of a ground tour even in the Tour de France But at least the winner today is a pure sprinter one of the favorite sprinters and one of the best sprinters in the world So I think it's just this for for Milan, I feel a little track to finally have that stage when in the last one in Rome is you know at least the picture is nice right the right picture is nice So that's good. I was happy to see him win.

Yes, I was to you could tell a personally mental lot to him. I've never seen a more relieved man than Jonathan Milan after the finish had it turns what was a disaster of a race for a little track five days ago And do a nice little race for them, you know because they get Derek G in the top five, not that far off the podium they win the KOM and they win a stage. Yeah, I mean Yeah, if you look at if you add that up there are many teams in this year, which would sign for this straight away if that's the end result KOM top five and a stage win

It's still pretty good. The thing is we start to see a little track as this winning machine Especially after the you know all the transfers they did the money have spent and the missions they have we count them as one of the four super teams and you know they did not get the results that we expected from them, but if you look at it the end result it's you know It could be a lot worse Another super teams supposed super team day they are super team Red Bull borough Hans grow they get third overall, but unless I'm hallucinating they don't want to stay no stage wins no jersey wins no jersey. Yeah, so

You know it's there's a lot of super teams out there have it haven't a hard time it's not it's not the easy thing in the world. The classification winners are it so Milan wins a final stage

“By Janus Finigarde the top ten is Phil's call second. Jay Henley, Tevin Ransman, Derek G. Afanza, Ullalio and sixth. I think I screwed this up in the live show. I meant to say”

In the end, Zoli was 8th and Domino Carruso was 9th and I was just to so distracted by the beauty of Ostenda that I said Ullalio instead of Carruso, but Ullalio sixth to me that is really really impressive wins the youth classification doing that Michael store seventh David day pick on Zoli 8th Dominic, Arizona 9th, Igor and all 10th

To Italians in the top 10. I believe for a while there's one Italian in the top 10 and that has never happened

And now finally speaking of Carruso, we just saw, yeah, we're here that he is not retiring. He just resigned for another year with barraim. So yeah, I listen he's strong or if he's motivated

And then on top of that, you know, the experience and the tranquility he brings to a team on the road is it's definitely very valuable. So

“Damiana Carruso keeps going. I was nice. Yes, it is. I think these guys get overlooked and probably undervalued similar thing with Igor and all, you know, he's 10th and he's helping a lot”

And you think, you know, how many riders can finish in the top 10 of the grant tour is not that many of them. And if you have one and they're willing to resign is that it's not bank bank breaking, maybe do it Paul Mane wins the point jersey over Jonathan Milan and our bias went home. I don't even know if we discussed this it was a little bit of a controversial like second shooter on the Hill situation where they said he ran into a team bus and then On after the stage, actually, yeah, to the stage he ran into a bus initially looked okay, but then he took the start didn't feel well start his knees start is no started bleeding.

Okay, that's why they're blunders there. Yeah, yeah. And so they decided to put them out of race interesting. And then they're also Michael Walgrin, slinked off to prepare for the tour to France. That is not a great look for the year to tell you when you have riders leaving to prepare for the tour. This is like keeping the zero organizers up at night. K.O.M. was Shikone over Jonas Finaigar. Other pretty classy of Jonas to go up to Jakone yesterday and say, I'm not going to sprint you for this don't worry about it.

It was won by Lali, oh, young riders jersey and then teams. I know everyone's been waiting for this one. These Malice bike wins the team classification by how much 40 minutes over next in use. It seems like a lot.

“I mean, it helps when you have two guys in the top 10 and then a third guy, subcoose who's often there in the mountains, you know, yeah, anything else on the show. You know, I mean, I think we've covered all of it in”

our live show, which all of you are going to listen to now. So yeah, I was it was an exciting three weeks.

And result was the world what we expected at the start. I think at least the winner, but all and all, you know, ground tours never disappoint. You know, I've enjoyed it.

Yeah, it was it was a very, it was a very beautiful race. It was I think it's very cool to see Jonas Finaigar. The live show should not have been here. It would be a more interesting race if he wasn't here, but I could watch these champions win all day. You know, like it's very cool that it's the eighth guy.

“To only eighth person ever to win all three grand tours. And I believe only the third person in the modern era to win in his first time starting the zero.”

But it would be Pagachar and Commodore would be the other ones. It's kind of funny, though, because, you know, Pagachar and vinegar. Only race to the zero after they were two of the best stage races in the world. So of course, they're probably going to win it. But yeah, great race and enjoy the live show. Everybody this episode is brought to you by drip drop. This live show you're listening to that took a lot of travel to get to. And for me, I was not feeling that great at times, but that's when I reached for my drip drop to help me rebound faster and stay sharp no matter how full my plate is.

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The new podcast I'm Spencer Martin I'm here as always with Johan Bernill and also with Bradley Wiggins who were very happy to have joined us.

We've never done a live show. We've done one in Austin but never done one in Europe so it's fantastic for proven to invite us over to do this Johan are excited. Very excited. I mean I don't come often to Belgium and to be able to do this in front of an audience of very enthusiastic people all cycling fans. I'm very very happy very honored with the invitation of for the people to be part of this nice festival so I hope you're all having a really good time.

It's an English so I guess that everybody who's sitting here will understand us.

But yeah, very excited. We're going to talk about the Julie Talia, which is finishing today the last stage and let's see how it goes. And Bradley, thanks for joining us back in your home country. Pretty much. Yeah, yeah, it's nice to be back. It's good. Well, as you were to tell you, it's kind of funny doing the show because the last stage is starting soon.

So we're jumping the gun a little bit but it looks like Jonas Benegard's going to win with five minutes 22 second gap over Phil's goal.

But Jai Hindley, Jai or Jade, did we ever figured that out? Johan, Jai Hindley coming in at 6.25, time in arms have been 70 to Derek G. 756.

“Johan, I know you were concerned that this winner about Jonas, you were concerned first week of the zero. Do you think he's going to hold on to win this thing today in Rome?”

I don't think I was concerned Spencer. I will have to ask you the question. Everybody present here, so Spencer and I do weekly shows about the cycling races. And I remember when Visma and Jonas vingigard announced their program is calendar. Spencer said, you know, I'm really worried about Jonas vingigard's program and his possibilities to win the zero because he's going to do the UAE tour and not race anymore. And then the jury, Talia. So Spencer, I have to ask you the question. Are you still worried about the state of Jonas vingigard and his condition?

We had a training crash fan or oh boy, that's that's Jonas is coming for us. That he crashed because someone is following close behind him and training and then he pulled out a UAE tour at the last minute. And then I believe he just had Catalonia on a schedule and I thought that's kind of a light stage race and schedule going into the zero. I couldn't find any historical example of someone doing that few race days going into the zero and winning.

But then of course you showed up and I've Perry needs, especially I feel like we're win. My doubt started to look silly when he won the stage with the bib tights exposed.

I think he was just he was trolling us at that point making fun of any doubters like, hey, I can win in correct clothing.

“But yeah, I think he's good now. I think he's got it. But how have you, how have you like Bradley, as you've watched this zero, have you been impressed with his with his form throughout?”

With Jonas, yeah, I mean he's gone without any problems in this zero and I think it's a bit like the Walter last year, you know, it's. It's been effort, it looks like it's been effort that's for him in many ways. And I was just saying before, I wonder how this is going to set him up for July. This is the best Jonas thing that we've seen over the last few is since he won the tour, I would say. But that's because he's had a lot of problems in the run up to the Tour de France certainly in the last two editions. So, you know, he's forms coming back. He did the Walter last year, of course, after the Tour de France.

And he was at the zero having one Perry needs already having one Catalonia already, so he's had the, you know, a flawless season so far up to this point. And it remains to be seen how that's going to set him up for July in the big challenge that comes up against today.

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately for, for Jonas, we always make the comparison to.

“To tie back that I forgot, unfortunately for him, but, you know, I think we cannot forget. And I think we should highlight the fact that.”

Jonas finger guard now is winning his third round tours. I mean several grand tours, but he won the Tour de France, he won the Walter. Now, he's winning the zero. And he's now part of history. And I think for, for any big champion, there are not that many riders who have done these three, there's eight riders in history who won all three grand tours. You, with your historic memory, do you know the eight, do you know which eight riders won all three grand tours with the Jonas? If in Chenzel, anybody, yeah, Chris Froome, yes?

Merx, yep. You tell me the rest, Alberto Contador, Contador, Bernard Hino, and you don't even know. Feliccio Gimondi, okay, so eight riders only, so that's a pretty select group to be part of. And I think, you know, we're, we're here to talk about the zero. I think it's amazing what, what the thing of guard and visma are accomplishing.

We, we say many times, you know, we, we, we all, take, take Pogacha and UAE out of the equation and visma is the team that they almost never fail.

And I think, if you look at this jury, Dali, are the way they have prepared it, the way they have controlled it, and the way they have executed their strategies is flawless. There has not been, in my opinion, any single moment where the race was out of their control.

“And I think that's very difficult to do with the team as well, that is not their full starting A line up is it?”

Yeah, they brought drafted in a few different guys that we haven't seen before, the neopro in there, and what they've done is remarkable, really, everyone's raised their game to the level of Yona's in that team. Yeah, and I was going to ask you about that, we were talking at lunch Bradley, they have this guy Tim Rax, Neil Pro, I believe, Belgian rider, German speaking Belgian, perhaps, but he is crush on people. He's on the front of the Peloton dropping guys who must, they must be better than him.

And he's dropping them, like, how do you motivate? How do you, you know, it's not your 18, but you're here, you're trying to win, like, how do you motivate these guys to kind of push above and beyond what they are. Well, I think they're writing for Yona's fingers, or who is one of the greatest of all time, really, you know, taking it again, taking it, taking it out of the equation. And what Yona says is a cheetah, and the confidence they have in him, it's testament to his leadership ability, you know. He walks the walk, you know, he's not a leader that walks around being very brash and making big statements.

And you see the effort, all those riders putting on a daily basis, not just him eating in the Tour de France in the last few years, well, we're not.

“Victor Campinas, the way those guys sacrifice themselves for Yona says a lot about Yona's leadership style.”

Yeah, I don't think it needs any specific motivation, you know, and Bradley can back me up on that. Bradley has been in a team. He won the Tour de France with a team around him. I've had several teams to win the Tour de France and the way these riders rise up to the occasion. And do things that I am 100% sure some of these riders will convince that they were not capable of doing what they have done. And having the leaders jersey in a ground tour is the best motivator, you know, especially in the second part of a ground tour when everybody starts to be tired.

I said it in another podcast, you know, you're suffering with a purpose. You know, everybody's suffering, but if you suffer and you look back and you see the leaders jersey behind you and you see, and then in the car, they keep coming back. Okay, this guy's dropped, this guy's dropped and you just keep going and they get hyped up. Tim Rex is a good example. If you see, for example, David I'm a young rider.

He did an amazing job. I'm pretty sure that before the zero, he did not think at all that he was going to be in some of the mountain stage, the third or the fourth best rider in the race.

“And it's a consequence of having the leaders jersey and being, I mean, you put the hurt on the peloton with a pleasure that normally you have to kind of submit yourself to a team that that makes you so much better.”

That makes you suffer and now you're in the driver seat and that changes the rider. One thing I think Visberdo have done really well the last five or six years is create such a winning mentality and such a winning culture within that team. When very youngness is coming to a bike race, they know what the job is. They're there to winning. And I think the guys that go to those races with the owners as team leader know what the job is and what the expectations are. And we were talking early. How many grand tours of Visber one in the last six years?

I mean certainly, you know, we've set course at the Walter Simon Yates last year, Jonas at the Walter. I mean, they've shared the the spools between UAE, Visber and one quick step within the last six seven eight years. Yeah, so it is shocking to think about it. But just off the top of my head, it would be Visber. The teams that are not Visber that have won grand tours are UAE, one quick step. Two Red Bull Boroughs. And that might be it. Yeah, I don't know what any of those. I mean zero to twenty twenty one was the last time any of those one one.

So I mean so here's my next question for you. You Johan is a director. You're coming in. You're going up against Visber the zero. Like what's the plan? How do you stop that? Well I mean, it all depends on the quality of riders you have. I mean I think it was no secret for anybody that when they announced the zero route and they announced that Jonas Vingigart was going to participate with Visber. And on top of that, certain other riders had to pull out, kind of pass fell away. I'll made a couldn't start.

I don't know, there's probably another rider. But anyway, you know that Jonas Vingigart is the second best stage racer in the world.

In the world, in ground tours. He has never finished below first or second.

So it's not that complicated to figure it out. You know, you know, you're going to bearing an unforeseen circumstance across an illness or a mechanical problem at a bad moment. And even that I would question that would be a possibility to take advantage of.

“You know you're riding for second place. And so I think that's what the other teams have done.”

You know, the Descartes long for example with Philix Gal from the very beginning they were clear. Then you that Philix Gal was in great condition, but they have never had any ambition to win. It was the purpose was to be the best of the rest. And I think that's been the interesting part of this zero. I mean, I personally have enjoyed the exhibitions of Jonas Vingigart on those climbs and the way he attacks and has no doubts and puts out an amazing performance.

But the really interesting part was the battle for the podium. And it's been, you know, it was very close until yesterday, basically. We didn't know it was going to be second or third.

But if you have such a strong rider at the start with such a strong team, the only thing you can hope for is to be the best of the rest. And be ready in case something happens with that guy. That's all you can do. There's other way. There's no strategy of any team or even combined strategy of several teams that could have beaten this Jonas Vingigart and this Vismalisa bike in this zero.

Every rider has doubts as well. Every big rider will have their doubts as to whether they can beat someone who's that dominant and that good. But I think it's more the responsibility of the team and who's in charge of the team as to where they, you know, is a podium more important than winning and going all out for the win. Do we want to make sure we finish on the podium, because we realistically have no chance to beat this guy. And I think that is dependent on on on on the ethos of the team and who's running the team as to do we want to chase this guy down. Do we want to make sure that we've got everything possible to to compete with these guys and beat them or do we want to conserve our, you know, sponsorship budgets and things like that and make sure we hit, you know, podiums in these races and I think it's difficult, isn't it?

Because it's a sport, all in it to win. But, you know, you don't get anything for finishing nowhere. So, you know, contracts are up for grabs and people salaries and things like that. So a podium finish in a grand tour. It sets you up for the next three or four years, doesn't it? So, you know, I mean, I think the strategies of teams and we've seen this now in the last, especially in the Tour de France, right? We have these two guys who are ahead and shoulders above anybody else. The third, the third rider has never been close to the first, second, the first and second, pogacharin and Jonas. And there's been a lot of discussions about strategies and, you know, we need to isolate this guy.

In this case, isolating Jonas and in the Tour de France, isolating pogacharin, they're so dominant that you only accomplish one thing. The sooner you isolate them, the sooner they attack. We saw yesterday, you know, the moment these two riders run out of teammates, that's when they go and you only going to lose more time.

So, it must be frustrating, but I think there's always, since cycling is not exact science, there's always hope that somebody's going to have a bad day.

Now, in the beginning of this zero, Vanguard was winning, but he was not dominant, and there was hope. You know, the first time, the first big mountain status on blockhouse, he only took 13 seconds on Philix Gallo. The time trial on stage 10, he didn't have a great time trial, and there was hope. Then for sure, I think Jonas Vingigard started the zero, not in 100% condition. There was talks of a little illness which he overcome, and now the last five mountain stages, it was game over.

“But you have to try to create a situation that your in pole position in case something happens, and that can also be about day doesn't recover well, get sick overnight. It happens all the time.”

That's, I think that's the way the rival teams have to see it, be ready, in case the opportunity arises.

Didn't like any mercipunch in the kidney or something in the tour de France? Yeah, I was so happy with anything that happened. I mean, it's funny to bring up the 13 seconds on blockhouse to Gallo. I was one of these people saying, "Oh man, he's Gallo was gaining on him. We got a race here. His climbing performance was almost identical physically to yesterday on Piancavallo, where he got Marco Pantani's record." So, in it, but his gaps are going up. It was 13 seconds on stage 7, 12 seconds on stage 9, 49 seconds on stage 14, 109 on stage 16, and then yesterday 115, all of those gaps to Gallo.

By the way, he finished second on every summit finish that Vingigard won, incredible race for Gallo, but it shows you that you perceive him to be getting better,

but he's just not degrading at the same rate as the others. Like even subconscious today, a great Grand Tour Champion, he's getting dropped because of the effort that day before, Jonas is fine.

“Like Bradley, what do you attribute to? Is that just genetics or you just, you can handle the effort a little bit better as a champion?”

Yeah, I think so. I think it's been that efficient over three weeks to make repeated efforts at that kind of power and that kind of output, and he's got so good at it the last few years as well. And I think the pellet on it as a whole are doing that as well. I know some people are dropping off, but the performances, we were talking about it earlier, compared to a few years ago, have been so elevated from everyone. And I guess that is that just comes from the amount of repetition you're doing training of those efforts.

And of course, the nutrition has a lot to do with it. I think the guys have a lot more carbs now in the finals than they used to. So they're able to, it's not that they're going fast from the early climbs, but they're able to to produce the same effort on the last climbs of the day.

“And the training, you had a good point there because people will say, well, why not?”

Everyone just go and do what Pagachar does, train exactly like him, but Johan was saying this morning, that can lead to not the results you want, because you just physically can't help the training.

You know, let's not forget that first and foremost, those guys have a huge engine, like a super formula one engine.

“And then the rivals who are big engines, but not the same quality. That's the first, the first difference.”

I've seen, for example, in the past, I mean, many years ago and I went in the early 2000s.

You know, we started to really prepare for the Tour de France, but you were supposed to learn discovery, and we had this amazing team assembled around Lance Armstrong.

We really strong riders, you know, we're just lucky came off, Roberto Herras, Rubiera Acevedo, Pena, George Hincape, many, many really good riders. But I discovered, the first time we did like a big training camp at the whole team, we made the mistake that everybody wanted to train every day, the same distance, the same mountains, the same intensity as Lance Armstrong. And after three, four days, Armstrong stayed at the same level. And then everybody else started to be tired until the point that some guys got injured. I remember one year, don't remember which year was was 2002 or 2003.

Roberto Herras and Chechu Rubiera, which were the best climbers who had to be next to Armstrong in the mountains, they had to abandon the training camp with knee problems, and we almost didn't get them fit for the Tour de France, because they had tried to follow the intensity of Armstrong. And with Vingagarten and Pogacchar, it's the same thing. You never see the whole team training, they all go to altitude camps now, but I've never seen the whole team, for example, training on a big day, every single day with Pogacchar.

He only goes with one guy, another guy, and they switch. It's not always the same guy. And that's what I think that's also one of the qualities of a big champion is the way you're able to train and with intensity and how your body is simulates that training and you just keep getting better and better and better, where the others can do that one day, two days and then they need two or three days to recover.

“That's what makes the difference, and that's also what makes the difference in a grand tour, Jonas Vingagarten right now, is exactly on the same level every single mountain stage.”

But yet, he starts to take more time, which means that the others are degrading and not recovering in the same way.

And Bradley is incredible win by Jonas, we don't want to sound like we're not giving it it's due, but is this a good idea? If he wants to win the tour to France, should he even be at the sheer of the time? Well, why not? Because he's tried the other way, good boy, a couple of times. And I think, you know, at some point, aside from thinking about his own power, because there has to be a part of him that wanted to win the duo to add, so he's one or three. And I did see an interview with him, and he said he wants to win as many races as possible in his career, and why not? Yeah, I actually think that this will set him up, better than we've seen him in previous years at the Tour de France than he has been.

I mean, the last two years he's been dogged with crashes coming into the Tour de France, and even last year I think we were questioning whether he'd even make the start line of the Tour de France, and he did any round second and everyone said he pushed her day, but he was there for most of the race.

So Jonas being someone who's been at the Jero, one five stages, looks to be in the form of his life in terms of numbers and the stats.

Going into this Tour de France can be confident that he can push to add a more than he has done in previous years. So I don't see it as a negative thing as to ways at the Jero, because you know, I think the sport has changed so much now, there was, you know, I think gone of the days now of the Jero Tour being the Jero Tour double of being too hard and impossible to do.

“I think now the way guys are racing, the way guys are recovering, the way, you know, it's a different sport now, and I think these guys have coming through the Jero with less days racing than ever.”

And going to the Tour with less days racing than they ever done in terms of preparation, so I think it's, I think, July is going to be really exciting. Yeah, I would like to add also, you know, obviously five weeks now from the Jero Tour, there is time to recover. As you say, Bradley, into the cycling, everything is so monitored that they know exactly what they're doing. But I would like to add another fact that is very important also is that Jonas being a guard and Visma can now go into do the France without a lot of pressure.

They have won the Jero. Jonas has won every single race he started, you know, he won Parinis, he won Catalonia, he won the Jero.

Like, if he doesn't win, it's not going to be a failure. Pogachar is now in a different situation because if you're the best, everybody expects you to win anything, but a win is a failure for Pogachar and UAE. And this is not the case for Visma. It changes a lot in the approach because, you know, there's a physical fitness, the physical tiredness, but mentally also.

“We have a lot of energy wasted on stress, nerves, pressure, and I think this is an advantage.”

So he comes in really relaxed. And if he finished second in the Tour de France, behind Pogachar, everyone say, "Okay, great job. It's normal. Pogachar doesn't have this super obligation."

Whereas Pogachar, UAE, have to win. I know, you know, in our run with lands and the seven tours, you know, we were being second was never an option.

That's not easy to deal with. You know, you can start the Tour de France. The team made me to be ready. They're super stressed. They have to perform. At the moment, they want to perform. And it's not an easy position to be in. So that's not Pogachar and Jonas can just sit back and say, "Okay, I'm going to follow, follow, follow, follow, try to follow." And if he breaks under pressure, I'll be there. That's a very good point. And people don't remember it, but Pogachar was in the same position.

It lost two tours in a row. Just like Jonas has, and he went to the zero, did it, and he'd get one in the pocket, and then he'd go to the tour without pressure. You know, it's still probably a lot of pressure, but it's less pressure. And I heard a crazy report from inside the team that they had. They had this so under control that they circled five days to quote unquote, "Go hard." And the rest were training days. This is during a grand tour. And I would guess the five days they went hard for the days they won.

And then he was basically at a training camp, and he's not paying for food. So that's great. You're saving money. RCS is paying for your meals, and you're on the road at a training camp. Probably not ideal, but I was skeptical, but hearing that it kind of made sense to me. And then hearing you add that they have less pressure, you can kind of start to get this picture of why exactly they're here and what they're thinking with it. And even when you're thinking the last 12 months, he won the Volta as well.

The end of last season. He was won the last two grand tours, as well as Paranese as well as Catalonia. And it's barely been the best year of his career in terms of numbers, in terms of performances, and wins. Other than he got second at the Tour de France last year, but that may all change this July. We have a trivia question for you. You're not knows the answer, so we can't answer.

“In a sense, he started winning stages. Do you know the only writer other than Pagachar than he's lost to?”

And I'm not countingceptors who gave the Volta to.

You'll never guess it. David, go do.

Other than that, it's Pagachar every time. That's an incredible thing. You're doing Paranese because two years ago. I think it might have been three years ago, three years ago. I don't know. Outside, there are other writers at this race. Outside of the owners, it's actually been kind of a sneaky close race. If he's not here, it's feel it's called first, gently second at 103 back. Time and arms, minute 140 back. Derek G at 234 back, but Derek G also lost a minute and two seconds on stage two due to the crash.

So it's basically the rest of those guys are, it's this band that's just stuck together. And it's been pretty interesting to watch them. What are they, what are they here, just as you said, your hand just work, we're going for the podium, like since blockhouse, that's been the focus.

“I mean, I think so, I think before and on, even before blockhouse, I think everybody before the zero new that”

thing of art and Bismarck were going to win normally. But it's been an interesting battle. I think probably, I don't know if it after blockhouse or after the second mountain stage, if you asked me my podium prediction, I said, finger guard, go. And Jai Hindley, because I saw Hindley getting better, which was the podium on that stage as well.

Well, the podium, I mean, the four big mountain stages, one, two and three, and in that order, have been the podium. There's not, there's no secrets, you know, in that the mountain stages are very honest. Unless, you know, there are one from a breakaway, you can have a different result. But Felix Gaul is super happy. They got one super happy.

I'm sure that Red Bull is happy with the podium of Jai Hindley.

Jai Hindley is in an amazing situation, because he's end of contract.

Don't know if he signed already or not, but definitely in negotiations.

And in this stage of his career, he's most likely not going to stay at Red Bull and move to another team. Probably, Visma Lisa Bike, which would be, he's in a great situation to either negotiate or renegotiate. This can be the new Simon Yates for Visma, right? Absolutely, why don't you see why not? Yeah.

But they're also really good at finding talent on their Visma when you talk about UAE and how they find these young 21 year old grand tour winners. But Visma, I've got a really good influx. Each year of good young riders that raise their game at these grand tours and show themselves. I mean, look began Zordi. Yeah, Zordi comes from Volty, Volty, Volty, you know, a smaller team.

He was not on my radar, obviously Visma knew what they were doing, because otherwise he wouldn't have gone there.

“But yeah, they find these guys, I mean, I think Visma has a really good system.”

They have their obviously their own development team. But they have a nice scouting system also outside of it. And there's many, many examples of young riders who, or even more veteran riders who go to Visma and up their game. And it's obviously one of the most structured and most well-run team, I think, in cycling right now. Yeah. I mean, you look at Matt Brennan as well, it's there, exactly.

Yeah. Matt was Judy World Champion with my son Ben, in the Madison, and won the individual pursuit that year, the track world. And wasn't, you know, it wasn't, no one thought he was going to be like he is now. But as soon as he went to Visma, he advanced so quickly and got confidence riding around the little guys and look what he's done on the circuit in the last two years. I mean, Visma, on the topic of Visma, at this, you know, on correctment if I'm wrong.

“But I believe only eight teams have one stages through 20 stages of the zero.”

That's crazy. Another team that hasn't won yet could technically win today, a little track would be the obvious candidate or unabed rose rockets. But Visma has six wins at this race. That is stunning. I mean, Jonas is five of them. The last time when Pegatur did the zero, he won six stages. So at UA, technically at six, then UA, with only five riders has four stage wins.

That's got to be the highest rider to win stage win ratio in Grand Tour history.

So it all quick step as three, Estana has to EF has to, that's incredible, by the way.

They've had a terrible season. They get two wins at this race. Net company, Nios has won, Bahrain, Victoria says won, UNOX says won. Let's speak for UNOX, first ever zero that goes stage win. This is, Bradley, you were saying at lunch, I was asking you like, why are we seeing, I feel like less interesting racing. I remember in the mid 20 teams, the zeros where it felt like anyone could win. Now everything's getting ironed out. I kind of put the blame on you.

This was kind of the playbook from Sky where they would piece the front. But that was just the tour. Now it seems to be happening at every race.

“Well, I think it's the most efficient way to win a race.”

And it's the most guaranteed way of getting your leaders to the last climb in the most efficient way to launch and execute everything that they've done in training.

But the giro historically was always like that. It was very difficult to keep tabs on it and difficult to control the giro.

And certainly, my error, there were a lot of that was to do with the likes of Inchenz and I believe Nairo Kintana that would like to mix it up and throw caution to the wind. The weather always played a big pie in the giro. The course of course does. You know, there's no set pattern to the giro. Like there is the tour where you have a flat, predominantly flat first week. And then you go into why they're the opposite of the Pyrenees, the giro. They would come thick and fast depending where you were in Italy.

So it's always unpredictable the giro, but Visma, you know, they've, I mean last year's race at the giro. That came down to the last day, didn't it? Yeah, that was all you know. And what I will say is that that probably has a lot to do with the presence of you on as Vingo. And the way he wants to ride and the way he wants his team to ride, the way they set up to ride in order to compliment his ability. You take Jonas out the race this year and it's why I don't, but isn't it, it's to who could have won the giro?

Yeah. And you were saying, you were saying, you were he when they have pergacha as a one team. When they don't have pergacha, they are agents of chaos. It's not the same time. But they were the giro last year when they had it in the bag and to the last day, didn't they? I still can't believe that. It's also not a guarantee, Spencer. Let's say, let's just forget about Vingo Garten and Visma in this giro.

And it's a race amongst these other second, third, fourth, go.

Hindley, Orangeman, Derek G. I'm not convinced that this would be the order. That would be one, two, three and four because the race would have been very differently.

Whereas now there's always been this formidable force of Visma, bringing everything back.

If those themes were in control of first, second and third position, I'm not sure that number two, three and four would have been number one, two and three. What do you think, Bradley?

“No, I mean, it's very difficult to predict now, isn't it?”

But I agree with you. I don't think it would have been in that order. I think it'd have been a different race. And the confidence of the other riders chasing, say, if Felix Gow would be in the pig jersey, I think it would have been a very different tactical affair going into these tougher stages. We've just had as to how they would have dislodged Felix.

And would have to Catholic them being strong enough to do the job that Visma would have done. So it's very difficult to predict that. But it would have been a different order, sure. Yeah, and it's, I kind of think, Jay Hindley would have won. If Jonas isn't there, and you let him let you go.

Maybe, I mean, he's got a good history with the gyros, and he can kind of, he drives and chaos. If there's no one making pace on the front.

It comes good, the third week of the gyros.

Yeah, the third week of the mountains, the deeper, the greater the better he is. So we have, I could not find a worse Italian top finish in his year to tell you, ever. So Davade Pigan's Oli is 8th, a fonds of Ullalio, the second young rider. And the competition was behind him in 9th.

“Could you guys remember a lower highest place in front of the time rider in their home grand tour?”

I think Italy, right now, and if you look at Spain goes a bit through the same situation. Italian cycling is in trouble. You know, the big favorite, I mean, favorite. He hasn't done it yet, so but it was Giulio Pelizari, that was the big hope. He got sick, couldn't perform.

I think also he peaked too early, was incredible, strong and in tour of the Alps. Usually, if you're super strong there, in the gyro, you don't make it till the end at the same level. But I think Italy and Spain, they're, they're feeling the way the economy is of the country. There's no teams. You know, we're talking, okay, there's no Italian rider in the front.

There is no single Italian world tour team around. If you look at Spain, there's only one world tour team, which is movie star. I remember the days where there was 780 Italian teams, six Spanish teams of the highest level. That's not the case now, so I think it's a consequence. It just tickles down towards, you know, if there's no teams, you can't have great riders.

Yeah, and so I think it's, I don't know what the solution is.

But obviously, there's no Italian or Spanish companies who want to heavily invest in cycling. And that needs to change first. I mean, if there's no teams, there's no infrastructure, there's no idols or heroes for the younger riders. And it's just never going to work. I guess it's not just cycling, like everything about football.

Like when we were growing up, Bradley, that seems like all the biggest players and the biggest teams were in Italy. And now, it feels like they've been left behind.

“Yeah, it's true, but I think it's just, it reflects the economy, doesn't it?”

It reflects, you know, but also I think the budgets have changed now. What's required for an Italian team to compete at the highest level is a lot different to what it was 20 years ago, isn't it? And if you don't have someone who's a household name, who's potentially a capable of winning the Tour de France, then it's very difficult for a company to get involved in it. And it's, I don't know, and back it's right.

So I think it's going to, it's going to, until they find a rider, they're going to struggle. Italy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we should say, fellows are very good. And the teamwork he did on stage 19 was super impressive.

Like we're covered from the illness. So I'm a big fan of his. Yeah, but that's the way he came for it. And now when he came for it, but we are, we learn an error. We're pretty hard on young riders.

Like this was kind of the path for a while. You go to a grand tour. You kind of get a feeling for what it's like to lead and then you get better and better every year. We don't really let guys match rate anymore. But Derek G reminds me of you a little bit, Bradley.

These are a big track track rider. Very strong can put out a lot of power on long climbs. I thought he was fantastic in this third week. Like one of the strongest riders in the race. Like what is his path as a grand tour container?

You think? Well, I mean, it's difficult, but does it. But I mean, I think it's very difficult for him now. The way this generation as well, compete against Tadebogato.

And we keep mentioning him.

Tade and Jonas, you know, it's difficult.

“Where do all the other riders that sit in those two tiers behind?”

Look to go now. You know, is it for podiums and someone like Derek G? What's it? Does he try and win a grand tour one day? I mean, I don't know.

You know, there's so many other races within the cycling calendar that you can win now. I don't know where he goes from now. I don't think Derek G can win a grand tour in this generation. No, I think this is his place. Fifth, fourth, he was fourth last year.

Fifth now. I think this is his level. I mean, listen, there are not many riders who could be top five in a grand tour in the Peloton. So it's your very good rider when you're 15 to zero. But you get to a point where I can't even see him contending for a third place.

There's always going to be three riders who are stronger than him in any grand tour.

I mean, maybe he gets third in the Vuelta one year or if I would be Derek G and I would be his team. So I would try to focus on one week stage races where these two big riders are not present. That would be my goal. There are many races where these riders don't race. But then you have Paul Seixas and you have Palizari and you have Ayuso and I'll may die.

There's a lot of good riders. So if you look at all those names, Derek G's a great rider. But he will need a lot to fall into place to be on the podium in a grand tour or even to win one of those seven. One week important stage races like Pyrenees or Bosch country or Catalonia. He didn't have some bad luck. He lost time early and a crash.

He probably wasn't his normal self in the first week because of that. And he was still pretty close. But are we assuming, are we just penciling in Jonas and Taday winning every grand tour? Like there must be grand tours coming up where they're not going to be. Well, there's going to be grand tours that are not racing.

Yeah, there has to be. Unfortunately this year, it looks like Paul Gachar is going to go to the Vuelta. Under normal circumstances, so every grand tour is either going to be Paul Gachar or Vengadar this year.

“I think, yeah, probably. I mean, do we know that though?”

Is he really going to win the tour and then go to the Vuelta? I mean, if he wants to win all three grand tours, he's going to have to go one day back to the Vuelta. And I personally think the sooner he does it the better. That is a good point. If people, if you put it off, we were talking earlier today just the light switch goes out.

And someone comes along. If he does, or it doesn't, it doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't. It doesn't. We know he's going to win the Vuelta. Yeah, I think what he did the other year when he won the G or the Tour in the Vuelta, was far more impressive than winning, having all three grand tours to his boat.

But I personally think that Gachar is one of those guys who absolutely wants to win the Vuelta. It looks like he's ticking off. We could just check it to him. I mean, we know he couldn't win it. Yeah, just like it. Just give it a compliment to him.

It's like getting, you know when you get, when you get in the UK, yeah. Yeah, an honorary degree in the University. In honor, he's at that point. But well, listen, it's not confirmed. I just heard rumors that he's planning on going to the Vuelta, but as usual,

you know, you first have to get rid of two of the France.

And then you reassess what the situation is. We also know he absolutely wants to win the Vuelta Championships again. It's in Montreal. It's something, if he wins, it's hard. I personally think it's probably between Zurich where he won two years ago.

Kigali last year and next year in the French Alps. Montreal is probably a race, which is also accessible for other riders. He's not going to be the only favorite. It was such a bad influence. Exactly.

It was a bad influence. We're talking about Pugachar.

“But yeah, I think I think it would be nice if he goes to the Vuelta.”

And then, you know, then finally both of those riders have all three grand tours. Yeah. And they can leave some to the other guys. Yeah, true. Well, is this, is this I want to see with the Vuelta?

I like seeing Jonas here, but it's this bad. If Jonas wasn't at this zero, is it more interesting? Are these guys just cannibalizing the calendar? No. I don't think so.

No. I think they have every right to the other the best riders in this general. It's not for them to not compete or slow down for everyone else to catch up. It's for everyone else to catch up. They're setting the bar.

They're setting the standard, which is why the sport is thriving at the moment. It's because they're the standard and everyone's chasing him. And I think the fans also want and expect the best riders to win the best races. You know, if you, let's say if we look at this Giri Italia, for example, and then finger guard is not present.

And so it would have been a battle between Felix Gaul and Hendley and Aaron Smyon and Derek G. I don't, I mean, it would, the race itself would have probably been very interesting and very unknown until the last few stages. Who would have won? But would people have liked it? I mean, I like it if there's a big star and the big star wins because he's the strongest.

That's ultimately what the sport is about. I mean, the strongest rider should win. I mean, that's the correct. You have the correct answer. That's what it's all sports are about.

Like, we want to see Jokevic win a million majors in tennis. But personally, just for me, I wish they would have done the race. I want to see who would have won Gaul versus Hendley versus D.

Well, we're not going to know. We'll never know.

But, Bradley, before we move on, I have a few questions for you guys about the tour or our taboo in section. But how's this year different from the tour? Is someone that targeted both to win them? Well, I think, I think there's less allies on it. I mean, half the people they probably don't know is going on with them.

What is this year to time? No, I think I think, you know, the tour when it's on. You can't go anywhere in the world without realizing it.

“And that's what differs from that for the tour.”

The duo is something that is romanticised because of the history involved with it. It's a great race. It's Italy's race. It's Italy's pride and joy. But the pattern of the race is different. So you can, you know, depending on where it starts with in Italy,

most of the time, I know it's been moving out of the country and started in Bulgaria this year. But depending on where it starts, you'll then, because of the shape of the country, you know, determines what the stages are like from there on as you head up to the mountains. And that means you could have a mountain of the stage on day three, mountain some of the finish on day three, or, you know, a flat, a couple of flat stages and that's a very difficult to do with that,

whereas the tour of France has a pattern to the race. And normally, we don't have a first summer finish in the tour, at least till day seven, day eight. And then, you know, you'll have a few transition stages in between those summer finishes, and then you'll go into the Pyrenees or the Alps, depending which way around they do it. And then a few flat stages and a time draw and then Paris.

So there's much more patterns to the race.

But the tour has never liked that.

We can come thick and fast. The weather is a big part to play as well because, you know, depending as well. And in this month of the year, if you go into the high mountains, we've been over the, you know, the Garveyer at times in the snow and the passage out of, you know, stages have been cancelled with the tour. So you're at the lap of the gods in terms of the weather.

So it's very different. And that brings it different challenges as well. Historically, which is what makes it more of a historic race, more of a romantic race as well, because it's some classic pictures from the past of Charlie Hull, what walking over the Garveyer in the snow, because he was unable to ride his bike.

And, you know, it's, it's great.

“Do you guys have some questions for you not about this year to tell you?”

Any other last year or thoughts you want to get out? About the zero. I listen. I mean, hats off to Paul Manier. Three stage winds that we know. So that quick step, you know, really did well in supporting him, bringing him to this race. We don't know maybe four.

We'll see. But anyways, young rider is establishing himself as one of the top sprinters. And really starting to be a really complete sprinter, like a strong sprinter, putting the points jersey in a grand tour is not easy. I think that deserves a very, very honourable mention.

I also allow you a rider that most of the broad public probably has never heard of.

Wins the wide jersey, the young classification. Took advantage of a breakaway, but controlled the difference and stayed in there. He finishes six different mistakes in the GC, but also wins the wide jersey. I think that's something that nobody was counting on, not even himself. I think.

What else is there?

“I mean, of course, I think the race changed quite a bit with the crash of UAE on stage two,”

losing the three strongest riders. But then the way UAE has turned it around and transformed their team with five riders into stage hunting and winning four stages. That's very, very, very nice and very difficult to do as a team because, you know, I can imagine only after stage two.

You know, the atmosphere in the bus and at the dinner table, you're always in there five remaining riders for almost three weeks. And they made really the most of it, so that's a big success. To say, we'll have to wait until after today's stage. But, you know, this appointing for the moment,

I think they came for stage wins with Jonathan Milan, who's considered one of the top three sprinters in the world.

For one reason or another, it never worked out.

You know, a bit of a consolation prize with the king of the mountains with Chicone, but that's not what they came for.

“So, um, yeah, I think that's more or less it.”

Other than, once again, you know, hats off to Visma and think about it for this amazing show. Should speaking of Little Threk, rumors are that they're going to try to sign feel it's gone. That Gaul's contract was not finalized before.

The zero smart move. If true, for Gaul. Does someone need to step? Do they have a spending problem? A little track?

Do they need feel it's gone? They have a lot of money. They have a lot of money. It's a big sponsor. They have big ambitions.

Uh, I can see. I mean, first of all, I didn't know that Felix Gaul was out of contract. And I think also, you know, if it makes sense also because Decaplan is obviously heavily investing in Paul Seixas. Felix Gaul was 15 the tour and probably top five or top six

in the world, or the zero one one year. But no, he until this zero, he's not been one of the top three riders. And we don't know if he's going to be able to repeat that in the future either. He's definitely a good climber, but you know, being Austrian.

And the ambitions of Little, the company Little, the supermarkets, German company, but the person who is responsible for the

sponsorship money and sports is an ex-cycleist who was always on my team.

Austrian guy Thomas Roreger. Do you remember too much Roreger? Uh, so he's the guy who is deciding on the budget. So they have a lot of money.

“And obviously for Felix Gaul, I think it would be amazing because”

if he's out of contract second in his market value goes up. He, you know, he would never get what he gets paid and Decaplan compared to what he can get now. After his second play. So I think it can make sense at the same time.

It's, it's a gamble because it's, it's very difficult to see Felix Gaul winning a grand tour in the next two or three years. Unless these big guys are not there. Yes. But, but, in words he fit into that team.

Like they just signed one I use so. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, listen, one I use so is good.

But you, you have to mean.

One I use is not going to do all three grand tours. There's plenty of calendar to share. And if they want to be present in every single race then they need several leaders. I do think the story of this year of the molested.

Well, learning is three, like a Gaul and I use so in a G, even though they may cost the same. Monetarily are not equal to a pogacha, but you kind of have everything or you have nothing in terms of juicy contenders. So it makes me a little nervous when I see it.

Like it's like they're trying to get a bunch of bees and make them and have one A, but I just worry they'll have a bunch of the same writer. But there there are no A's available. There's no A's available.

It's potentially one A available. It's who all six of them. Six outs. Yeah, but in 2020, 27, not 28. No, 28.

Sorry. Well, 27 is still have a contract. Didn't, but there wasn't one A, so under contract and then now. Yeah, but yeah, this is going to be different. Rather, you're coming back.

We can get you into a huge contract to do. I mean, it's funny to talk into Tom Dumaland just before we came over here and we were both saying the same thing. You know, don't miss it one bit. And it was so glad we're not racing in this generation now.

“And I think it doesn't, you know, within a few years of retiring”

and looking back and you're watching them now, you forget how hard it is but it's, um, I'm glad I'm not racing in this generation. Well, before we wrap up, is what is Taliburgachard doing right now? Is he worried?

He's watching us live. He's watching us live. He's watching us show up on out. Is he worried? Watching Jonas dominate this year.

I don't think so. I mean, you know, I can't speak for him. But the way he approaches the sport, it's what makes him so great as well. He doesn't get overall by anything.

I think he'll actually part of it will enjoy Jonas winning. Yeah. And saying he deserves it, you know. But that guy turns when he gets in a bite race and he's a different animal.

But I don't think he's, is someone who gets affected by, I don't know, he's one, I'm worried now. I think if it does anything, it'll keep him on the top of his toes. It's going to be motivated for him.

He knows that finger guard is on the high level and then he needs to keep his game or step up his game, which I think he's actually still improving.

For sure, they watched races.

They watched the results. Their trainers have the data. They know the power output. You know, it's public, right? So they know exactly.

“If anything, he will use it as fuel to train harder”

and to race his level to do another dimension.

Who wins the tour? Bovacchar. Taddy. Raise your hand a few things.

“Bovacchar is going to win the Tour de France.”

Okay. It's quite a few hands. What about Jonas Vindigard? Oh, get it. What about Remco?

Nice. What about Wellvinard? We have any believers. Nice. That's my pick as well.

Do you guys have anything else? Should we let these people get on? Yeah, I think we've covered most of it.

“And once again, thank you for everybody for being here listening to us.”

And this was a great invitation, a great first.

And I hope we will back next year with another episode of The Move. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. [Music]