264. Show Your Receipts: Communicating in a Post-Truth World

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“The best way to connect and truly communicate is to be curious and respectful. My name is Matt Abraham's”

and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I'm really excited to speak with Farid Zacarya. Farid is the host of CNN's flagship international affairs program, Farid Zacarya GPS. And he's a weekly columnist for the Washington Post. He specializes in translating complex geopolitical trends for a broad audience. His insightful book, A.E.E.E.

of revolutions is out now in paperback. Welcome Farid. I have benefited so much from what you do on television and in your writing. Thanks so much for being here. It's a pleasure to do this. So we get started. Absolutely. You are here. We're living in one of the most revolutionary periods in all of history. What specific forces are leading you to make this claim?

“So if you look at the base of change, particularly along the kind of key drivers”

that have tended to produce this kind of sense of society being upended,

they tend to be technology in the first instance, almost always in my book.

The age of revolutions I talk about how starting with the Dutch and the invention of the kind of technology that allowed the Netherlands to become rich. This was water management. Then financial management, they created the first joint stock companies, the first stock exchange, then transportation equipment, the inventorships that can go around the world. It produces a huge set of revolutions. If you'll think about the information revolution, this really is the

mother of all revolutions at some level because you're almost replacing or at least replacing in central importance, the material economy and so planting it with a digital economy. And now with AI that becomes even more true. The second is globalization, which is we have seen an explosion of globalization on the scale in the last 30 or 40 years. On a scale like nothing we've seen before, to put it in simple context globalization near the rest of the world joining in the kind of Western

open market system, 1950s and 60s year at Japan joining 80 million people, South Korea, 40 million

people, Malaysia, maybe Singapore, Hong Kong, 510 million. Between 1985 and 1995 roughly, China, India, most of Latin America, Indonesia, or Jogba, three and a half, four billion people joining the open trade world trading systems. So that shocked. But then the other one, which people don't think about enough is we have gone through enormous cultural change in the last 40 years. Think about the role of immigrants in society and Western societies. And now the point I'm trying to make is that

this is all happening at the same time. So when you put that all together, this does feel like the mother of all revolutions. It's amazing how much has happened and how much has happened and a relatively short amount of time. In an age where we're in the midst of this information revolution and information is infinite and algorithms influence who sees and hears our messages. I'm curious yet your opinion, do facts still matter or its communication just become purely about identity and

emotion? It's become much more about identity and emotion because of the disaggregation of channels.

be centralized modes of communication. You have to think about radius of one to many broadcast system.

“That's why in the old days when they'd have a cool, you would try to take over the presidential”

palace and you tried to take over the radio station because you wanted the source of political power and the source of information power. Then you went to the TV station and the presidential palace. Today in a networked many to many broadcast system, there is no note to take over the national hierarchy of information and in that situation you are going to see a much greater degree of contested facts contested narratives and things like that. It's very disconcerting because it does mean

you're suggesting a kind of post-fact or post-truth environment, but it is where we are and that means that you try hard to make your case as forced me as you can. You can rely on authority anymore to say, trust me, this is what happened. You're going to have to show the receipts. If you were to give people advice on how to talk smart in an environment where all the incentives

are to speak loudly, what would you tell people to do? The first thing you try to do if you're

trying to genuinely persuade people as opposed to preach to the converted, which is what I would argue 90% of what passes for political discourse on television and even beyond television social media for sure. The first thing you've got to do is you've got to try and make the case as plainly and I don't want to say unemotionally, but in a way that does not rely on demonizing somebody, you're trying to present the facts and you're trying to say, this is what

the landscape looks like. Now, here's why I think what I do. So you're not, you're not, there's not a lot of ad hominem, there's not a lot of name calling, there's a lot of screaming because

“otherwise you're turning off a whole bunch of people. The second thing I think you have to do”

is you have to marshal the facts. When I say the receipts, you have to have real evidence, real data, so that people can see that you're coming to your conclusions from an honest place of analysis

rather than a preconceived place of this is my team and I'm rooting for my team. And the third

in this may sound like it's contradictory to the second, you have to be able to establish a connection, almost an emotional connection with the person reading you, viewing you. And what I mean by that is you have to establish trust. And you can do it in different ways. One way is to not demean the other side. Do it in a way that says, look, I'm trying to be as honest and honorable as I can here. This is the situation as I see it. It seems to me we're going down a bad path and here's why.

So if you do those three things, you're likely to help the way I think about it is lead somebody down a series of steps. Now they may not get to the place you want them to get to, but at least they've gone down those steps and they've seen that you're trying to go down those steps honorably and reasonably and fairly and then they may back away. What I heard you say is that it starts with respect. You don't start with challenging and in vitriol. You then provide the facts and then connect in a way

that's genuine authentic. And that's how you can foster understanding, which is different from agreement. I think that gets conflated a lot where we see understanding and agreement being the same thing as somebody who does both writing and video camera work. Many people are finding themselves having to be on air more. I mean, much of our communication now is visual. If you're a leader in an organization, you have to have a camera presence. What have you noticed has helped you be successful

in making that transition from writing and speaking in meetings into being on camera in a way that we all can benefit from some of the advice that you've learned. What I am struck by is visual media is actually quite, it's the opposite of what most people think. It's selects for a lot of things, but one of them is intelligence. They think about it this way if you have an article that you're reading in a long magazine say the Atlantic of the New York Review of Books or the Harvard Business Review

which is not quite that long. They can often meander, they can often be panathetical. You can't do that on visual. People will start with their click off. They'll switch the channel. They'll stop watching the YouTube video. You have to stay focused. You have to be linear. There has to be

“an narrative. You have to be saying something important. You can't be doing a lot of throat clearing.”

So that I think I'm just, I happen to be good at because that's my way of thinking and talking anyway. And I tend to think that it's also that I am myself. I don't put on air as I don't try to speak in a very fancy way. If you watch my show, compared to let's say you pull up a broadcast from Peter Jennings or Tom Brokehull, old anchors of 20 years ago, they would speak in this

I talk the way I would talk to you normally. I also would have an occasional um in there. I think that

conveys to the viewer. This is a real human being. And you're getting him talking the way he normally talks. I tend to think that's an advantage. It's maybe partly I say that because I don't think I could pull off this sustained staying in that anchorman mode. But I do think it's an advantage. So I'm hearing precision and authenticity are really important. And the visual medium is not as

“forgiving. And these are skills that you can learn and you have to practice and yet it's becoming”

more and more relevant and important. I want to tie in some of your work on revolutions to things that we think a lot about, which is entrepreneurship and disruption. Many of the revolutions you describe started with radical ideas that eventually became mainstream. Are there lessons we can learn that can help entrepreneurs and activists take their disruptive ideas and make them more generally acceptable? I think that more than anything else, the ones that seem to succeed,

have two elements to them. One is luck. I will be totally honest with you. And I think anyone who doesn't admit this is just being silly. You get the right time, the right place, the timing work,

other factors came together to make something happen. But the second is a certain kind of determination.

A certain set of forgiveness. You can't get too disheartened when you try to do something. And you have to be willing to ride the ups and downs. The way I think about it is so many of the people who I've seen who have been successful entrepreneurs, the company that worked was their third company. But they would determine to find something that works. And you adjust and say, okay, the market doesn't want this or the consumer doesn't want that. But you're going to do something. You're

going to make it work in some way or the other. So it's determination and taking advantage of the situation that is around you. Maybe the way I think about luck is to recognize when fortune is

“favoring you and ride the wave. And that does take skill. And that does take you need to be prepared.”

You need to work hard and you need to ride the wave when you see the wave coming. And the other side to it is recognize when you are against the wave. I remember having this fascinating conversation with George Soros once. And he said, you and I do the same thing. We look at the world and try to analyze it. The differences I put my money where my mouth is and you don't have to. I said, okay, give them that. What do you think of the differences

in the way we approach it? And he said, I'll tell you, I think one of the principal differences. People were intellectuals get very wedded to their ideas. And they're very wedded to their theories. And it's the slow to notice that the world is disconforming your idea. He said, if I see the market is telling me I'm wrong, I will sometimes wait, but it's very expensive to wait. And so you really need to take in that feedback that the market is telling you you're wrong. And there are times

when I have made a bet and the market is telling me I'm wrong. And I'll bet against myself twice as hard on the opposite side of that bet because I've realized that the market is right and I'm wrong. And intellectuals tend to be way too stubborn in homing on to their theories. I'm new to this

“from being at a university because people in a way get famous for their theory, right?”

I think that's a really valuable point. In addition to tenacity and recognizing and being able to observe the patterns to decide what decisions to make, we need to be willing to let go and cut bait. And that's so hard. There's so many things that can inspire against that. I'm going to be very curious to hear your thoughts on this. I and a fellow colleague at the GSB Rachel Conrad have become very concerned about how teens communicate and the challenges that

they have. I'm sure you've seen the same decline that I have. The critical thinking interpersonal

communication among teens has really taken a hit. Do you have thoughts on what parents, teachers, communities can do to help adolescents communicate better? I do. I hit to be cliche about this, but I do think that Jonathan Heide is dead on when he talks about the effects of phones and social media and it's the combination of the two. I think that I have personal examples. I've seen this with my kids and in one case one of my kids put aside this smartphone for two years. They

only had a flip phone and it totally transformed the way in which they had the ability to connect and think and save our life almost. I think that the thing about a smartphone, which is like a super computer in your pocket, is it creates a certain kind of learned autism? What I mean by that, say when you and I were younger, we were in an awkward social situation. We're either cocktail party, school mixer. You have to make your way around. Right now you have to figure out what to do.

eye. You're engaged in social interaction. Today you know what happens. The minute somebody feels socially awkward. Take out their phone and they're on their phone and they're now looking at Instagram or they're connecting with some friends, but there's a people they already know. You're not engaging in the hard work of social interaction, which is with the people you don't know, breaking the ice, finding a way in. Similarly, if you're listening to a lecture,

the minute it gets boring for you, you take out your phone. You're not asking yourself, okay, is there something interesting here? Is there something I can connect with? Is that?

“No, so that's what I mean by the learned autism. Like you immediately retreat to yourself.”

And the super computer in your pocket allows you to retreat to yourself so quickly that you lose the muscles of doing those other things that you should be doing. I think that's most of it. I do not believe that kids today are a stripper or they're good, they're hardworking, they're good morals, they're good ethics. But I think we have given them the biggest temptation. You could ever imagine it. Imagine if you and I were trying

to study in the old days and you were given a machine on which you were told, you can watch every movie that has ever been made, every song that has ever been recorded, you know, here or you could do your homework. You're giving them an impossible temptation. And so I just think the degree to which you can limit it is the best you could do. Absolutely. I do agree that social media phones absolutely have implications. I do think adults in kids lives can take action

by role modeling good communication, walking through the decisions that we make as we communicate with others just so that we can make sure that these skills are at least demonstrated

and encourage. I would I give you an example. And my family will always sit down to dinner together,

no phones at the table. And we always talk. Now, contrary to one of a lot of people think, we don't talk about the world in international affairs and what's going on. We talk about just

“pretty mundane stuff. I think that's the more important thing because I want, I don't want them to”

have to feel like characters in my movie. It's about what happened in their day and what happened in the dog's life and things like that. And that I think just it seems very simple, but it does seem to me that it's a fairly good force multiplier. And when I've dropped to them, they're often point out that when they talk to the friends, it's becoming uncommon for family to just sit together, dinner and have that meal together and sit down, talk, no phones. It's usually, let's be honest,

it's courty minutes, but it's a very full-thirty minutes. Absolutely. And I love that you take the time to do that. And I'd love to be a fly on the wall on those conversations because in my mind, I would imagine one thing and you're telling me it's something very different. We'll be right back

to finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

Their support covers the cost of production so we can bring you this show for free. This episode of Think Fast Talksmart is brought to you by Squarespace. You know, I talk a lot on this show about communication and increasingly, part of that is having a place online where ideas, your work and your voice can really live. But getting something like that started can feel like a big lift. That's one reason I appreciate Squarespace. It simplifies the

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your career, part of your career by asking tough insightful questions of people. What makes for a good question, and do you have a go-to question that you like to ask people? No, I think that's a mistake. I think that in general, you really should be listening to people and watching them. And that's,

each person has a different button you want to press. I think the most important thing in

you've said it is being genuinely curious and genuinely believing that everybody has a story to tell,

that. And if you have that kind of curiosity, it's fun to ask people questions. If I go to dinner

parties, and I find that like people have just asked me lots of questions, I leave disappointed,

“because I know what I think. I'm only learning when I'm listening, not when I'm talking.”

Absolutely. One of the mantras we learned from another guest we had on the show was it's all about being interested and not interesting. And when you take that approach, it can be very helpful. I'm curious to know your answer to this. Who's a communicator that you admire and why? Well, there are many, but let me give you one right now, just because it's top of mind.

I think Mamdani, the new mayor of New York, is remarkable. He may be one of the best communicators

I've seen, because he's figured out the medium of the moment, you know, these short-form videos. They're very expertly done. They're not. This is not amateur. Remember his mother is one of the great directors of our age. You know, so they're done right, but then he brings to it a kind of intelligence

“imagination and authenticity. So the imagination is, I don't know if you remember he's advocating”

for rent freezes, right? So he jumps into the Long Island sound in February with freezing waters in his entire, it is full soup. And he comes out saying something about how he's freezing and how he wants to freeze the rents. That's the imagination to get your attention to. He does is really very compelling that that mixture of intelligence and imagination, knowing the medium and being authentic. I should say, I find many of his ideas deeply

troubling, and I don't agree with the substance of the policies, and I am irresistibly drawn to the power of his communication skills. Isn't it interesting how somebody can appreciate and understand the new way of communicating new technologies and still bring that authenticity intelligence to take advantage of it. Thank you for sharing that.

Final question for you. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful

“communication recipe? I would start with authenticity, because I think that's where you get the”

trust. Some say a clarity and kind of a concession, and then the final one is probably that leap of imagination that allows you to be a little different, that allows you to do something arresting. That gets you into the talk tier, I think. So it's about authenticity, clarity and concession, and creativity and imagination. And I think when you combine that recipe together, you get great communication. And certainly you are a good example of putting those together.

I appreciate all of the ideas and best practices you have shared, and I really appreciate the intelligent conversation that you role model for all of us. Thank you for your time and best of luck on your paperback of Age of Resolutions. Thank you so much. This is so much fun. I actually learned a lot while doing it. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about managing complex issues in communication,

please listen into episode 161 with Jen Sock. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham's. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to the podium podcast company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmartor.io for deep dive videos, English language, learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining

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