265. Complexity to Connection: Humanizing High-Stakes Communication

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Rules and restrictions apply. Moments lead to movements, which lead to momentum. My name is Matt Abraham's, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today I am super excited to talk to my friends and mentors, Jonathan Barrack, and Phil Polikoff.

Jonathan is a renowned gynecological oncologist. He is a professor at Stanford School of Medicine and a former chair of the Stanford Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. In addition to his extensive medical career, he is an active documentary filmmaker, creating and directing films on medical topics with a focus on patient stories. He is also the faculty director of Health Communication for the Stanford Center for Health

Education, where he promotes effective medical communication and health media. Phil is a distinguished health transformation advisor, a consulting professor at Stanford School of Medicine, and a widely published author. With a career spending 45 years, he has helped diverse roles from a nominee for U.S. search and general to CEO of his own nonprofit, a healthier we, which is dedicated to improving health. His the author of five books in more than

200 articles, making him a leading voice in healthcare innovation, policy, and administration. Welcome Phil and Jonathan. I am really excited to have you here. It's been a long time coming. Thanks for joining me. Thank you. Thank you very much. Shall we get started? Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Beyond being medical professionals,

“you each have worked hard to draw attention to and solicit money for important health care”

issues. Jonathan, can you share a bit about your work to bring attention and funding to women's cancer issues? Yes. When I came to Stanford 20 years ago, I realized and putting together the Stanford Women's Cancer Center that we needed more than just governmental funding. I put together with the help of many women in particular in the Stanford area, a philanthropic project called under one umbrella, where we raised money for women's cancer research. Those money has

been used to recruit people to create and doubt professorships, and also support our clinical research trials group, as well as giving out innovation awards. And that's really helped to improve our research capabilities and all the activities at Stanford Cancer Center. People around the area and around the world have benefited from that work. So thank you on behalf of all of them. Phil, your turn. Can you share a little bit about what you've been doing to highlight healthcare

inequity issues? I go back in a different direction, not better or worse than my friend, Jonathan's. Mine's a little bit more holistic on the word health. In 1948, the World Health Organization put forth their definition of health. Health is a state of complete physical, mental, social, and I insert the word spiritual well-being, not merely the absence of disease or infirmant. So I'm looking at how people improve their health and I've seen health care and

sick care through all the different lenses. So the challenge has always been how do you

effectively have changed transformation, which is not easy. Early in my career, I was a clinical

with the new organization called the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. And I got to see both urban and rural issues. And that's where my passion's been to see the three peas, practicalities, policies, and political will. For me, the real opportunity now is can we cross the chasm and bridge the gap so it's become for all of our society.

“And that work has been really important in the past and even more important today.”

It's mission critical now. Crisis top opportunity.

Absolutely. Not only are you both steeped in the medical business and world, but interestingly, you both use very effective communication tools to bring your message to the public. You both, for example, use film. I'm curious to learn your thoughts on the importance of storytelling to move and motivate people. And what goes into a good story? And oh, Jonathan, for example, you've directed many films. I'm curious to get your take on storytelling.

When I was an undergraduate student, I was very involved in creative writing. I wrote plays, short stories, and I was very involved in the theater. Did a lot of acting, directing, and actually for a while thought I was going to end up in the theater, but decided to go to medical school after all. But what I learned during that time is the value of storytelling.

And how powerful it is in terms of engaging people with a message. Sometimes much more valuable

to do it that way, rather than just write it out. I had the opportunity in the past couple of decades to get into filmmaking. As more as a hobby originally, although now it's become a passion. And I do a considerable amount of filmmaking, mostly short documentaries. People are more likely

“to listen to something that's in a film than they are in the written word. I think it's part”

of our culture now because we're the television film generation. People feel the emotion when they see a story. In my case, I do a lot of medical related types of films. And I use patient stories, which tears at the heartstrings often. And I think that gets the message across more than if I were to just say, well, I'm doing this little science project. And there's this molecule

and we're trying to do that. And people, their eyes glaze over. But if they hear a patient story,

if they hear someone saying, I took this drug or I was on this medication and it gave me a remission in my cancer. People get that. They understand. And they think, wow, this is a very important medical advance. So here are a couple of things in that response. One is the storytelling that has emotion, can really connect to people. And storytelling that is personal, that brings it down to an individual level, can really help with that connection. Phil, you have also used film

and media to really move people. I recall watching one of your films talking about Appalachia and things going on and healthcare. It was very moved and part of what impressed me so much was actually seeing the things. It's one thing to read it. It's another thing to see it. What's your take on the importance of storytelling and what makes for a good story? I find it intriguing or the intersection between Jonathan Rye, our evolution was almost along the similar paths. In the process,

I started doing radio shows. And back then, I found they were more interactive than podcast today because I would get questions from the audience. And then I saw being a little different in Jonathan, but I was heavily involved in politics. So at a very young age, while he was doing his surgical training and his academic and all that, I was running for the attending governor of California when I was 32. So you realize that you had to be empathetic, but you had to say things

that were very precise and very short on words. So that's my pearl. I'm now at the trifecta

“of words. So it could be what did a three most important thing in one's life. Three relationships,”

it's service and purpose. Two, how do you deal with social issues? You listen more, speak less, three, think bold, start small, move passion and purpose. Because people don't have long jeopardy. So a lot of insight there. So being concise and clear, highlighting bright spots are ways to enhance a story so that it's memorable. You are embodying Phil saying my mom has, which is to tell the time, don't build the clock. Be very concise, be very clear.

One of the things I have enjoyed in our, in getting to know you and having you as friends and mentors is you both have really nice communication styles that are really effective. You're just both affable, super bright and very articulate. Do you have advice for people on how they can be better communicators? You're around a lot of people and you see a lot of people communicate. Phil, there are a few things that you would recommend suggest advice people to do to improve

their communication beyond being concise and clear. Coming in front with Jonathan and you, I thought about what was important. Make sure you do your homework ahead of time and have

that are outside of your comfort zone. Lots of goodness in that statement. Jonathan, one of the

things that's always impressed me about you is you are able to take very complex, often scientific

information. It may get very relatable. Can you share how you do that so we can all benefit? What are some of the things you think about to make the very academic, very scientific information, something that we can all understand in excess? I guess the first thing I think of is the process of what some people call leveling, which is be sure that, first of all, you know your audience. And so you communicate in a style and with words and phrases that you think will connect with

that particular audience. When you're speaking to a lay audience about a complex medical issue, you don't speak down to them and you don't speak up to them. You try to get to their level

“and that's the best way to connect. Absolutely. And one of the things that you do and I'd love”

to get feels comment on this as well. You listen very well. Many people I know with the accolades in backgrounds such as you both have. Almost use listening is the starting gun for their talking. Jonathan, you and I, we met a, you were a student in one of my classes. And I was so impressed right away with how you listened to our MBA students who whose life experiences very different than your life experience was at that point. And yet you would listen, you would acknowledge what

they said, and then you would connect to it. How important is listening in all of this?

Well, I think the two most important skills in communication are empathy and listening. And they

are related because you demonstrate empathy through listening. And of course, other phrases that you use to connect with people with whom you're trying to communicate. You have to have an open mind and an open heart, as they say, when you communicate with people. I think a couple of things that Phil said are important to emphasize doing one's homework being prepared is critically important. And to quote an actor who says the other important thing is show up on time. It really has to do with

demonstrating your availability and your awareness of the circumstance and the situation. So people take you serious. That's very important when you're communicating to an audience. You're showing respect and you're showing that I'm here for you. Phil talked to me a bit about your perspective

“on listening and empathy and your expert at both. I'm curious. Did you get a little older?”

Two words have more impact to me than they used to. And I've gotten to the point where I'm patient, but I'd like a yes or no. I don't like ambivalence or ambiguity. If you don't want to do it, that's okay. And if you do, don't constantly ask for something without telling what you get as you deliverable. Doesn't matter if it's academia, philanthropy, but make sure there's some tangible, the final results that you believe in as you contribute to someone else's efforts.

What I'm hearing in what you just said really is about this notion of clarity, clarity of the connection you have with the person and taking the time to find those connections and then clarity in the actions and communication. Jonathan, I want to come back to one thing that you and I have collaborated on along with my friend and your friend Adam Tobin. You invited Adam and me to an Adam has been a guest on the show before to help bring ideas from the world of

improvisation into the medical profession. Rather than build that whole story up, I'm just curious

“for you to share why you believe tenants from improv can be so important in really high stakes”

communication situations such as a medical professional with a patient. When we first promoted this

idea, of course, my colleague said to me improv, I don't want to do stand-up comedy. And I said, well, just think about it this way. Every interaction you have with a patient, you improvise, you improvise what you say, you talk around it, you don't have a script, you may have an idea of what you're going to talk about. But the advantage of practicing at a situation where you're improvising within a group is that it allows you to get more in touch with your ability to improvise so that

when you're in a difficult situation with patients or others, it helps you refine your skills. And people got the notion and the sessions that you and Adam ran were very popular, very well received, and they got the message. Yeah, this is helpful. And a lot of people, after we're said, this really improved my communication skills. The point that I want to echo for everyone is that you can practice spontaneity, right? You can put yourself in situations, learn some rules, and that can really

make a difference. Because if you think about it, most of our communication is spontaneous. It's not planned. And in high-stick situations, having that preparation can help, and I appreciate that you invited us to do that. You are both examples and role models of people who've pivoted or expanded their work later in their careers. As I'm getting older, and hopefully perhaps a little wiser, I'm curious about your thought process behind the choices you made in the moves that you made.

And how has this felt? And how have you communicated this change to other people? A lot of people

change in pivot as they get older, but we have to explain it. So how have you always thought that

this is where you want to end up? I don't think that's exactly what my thinking might think. He was, "How do you, as I said earlier, have a role in a meaningful transformation change?" I think what I learned is it's less about I and more about we. There's another line that people can use in these times if I as replaced by we, even illness becomes wellness. Only working together what we have a healthier society. I tried many different ways,

working for large health care corporations, looking for large corporations, the government not for profit academia, and I think what I did is I did not have enough

“laser focus on fewer initiatives, because if you want to get something done, you have to be”

laser-focused and you can't be a clinician in a politician and see patients at the same time you're trying to be an entrepreneur, because you'll lose focus. The other thing is I think I could have benefited by some executive coaching. So right now I'm much more laser-focused given the challenges we're facing on, trying to have a petition saw to make health a basic human right and get this to be a bipartisan hearing in Washington. So people can collectively think it's their process. Not my

I maybe we take initiatives, but you get from moment to moment to movement. Three ends are not easy to go from A to B to C. So you have to have the passion, but also to get a little older. I'm not speaking for Jonathan. Moderation is a pretty important word. Don't think you can do the same thing you use. I was competitive athlete. You cannot be on a rugby field all over the world

“again playing rugby. It's a little bit too much. So pace yourself and have fun. I mean, I think”

that you're talking about empathy on tiers are great and I don't have a problem tiering in public, but it's also nice to smile and be happy. I like that idea of seeing interactions as the beginning of the next conversation. The ability to be focused to moderate what you do to have fun that's all great advice and I hope everybody is listening to how fully uses words. I love I to we illness to wellness from moment to movement to momentum. These are all ways to help us not just

remember, but to feel a sense of aha or motivation. Jonathan, tell me about your decision and arc and how you've communicated that focus. I think as I progressed in my medical career and matured hopefully during that process. I was trying to look more at the big picture. You know, when you're laser focused on taking care of patients and doing research in my case, cancer research,

“you have to be very dedicated to the process. But as you mature in the field, you learn the importance”

of mentoring others. Obviously, when I was younger, I desperately needed mentors and I learned from that experience. I learned from you and others in the communication field. So in a way you served as an important mentor at the time when I needed it. One thing I heard both you say differently, you talked about mentors and finding mentors and you talked about coaches and finding coaches. It's not a single act. You have to have others to help you and you both have served as mentors

for many people, including myself and I am greatly appreciative of that. We'll be right back to

finish our conversation. But first, we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors.

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Before we end, I always ask three questions. When I create just for you and two, I've been asking

everybody on the show. Are you up for that? Always. Go for it. Excellent. To fill, looking back at your career in success and you've had many successes. And in your case, many careers. What is one thing you wish you would have known when you were younger that would have helped you along the way?

who's my hero. And that changed my path of direction. So making those social connections and being open to them. Same question to you, Jonathan. What is one thing you wish you would have known that would have helped you along the way? How to be smarter? I think when you're young and you're

“invincible and you think that whatever you do is okay, you have to learn to be much more”

circumspect. And it takes a while. That's part of the process of growing up, becoming a mature human being. So learning to question and learning to be empathetic earlier. Jonathan, who's a communicator that you admire and why? Phil Pizzo. He's probably one of the best communicators I've ever encountered. His ability to speak ex-temporaneously is quite extraordinary. Virtually every time he

gets up in front of an audience afterwards, people, oh my goodness, that's incredible. Phil,

what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? Being invited to participate, reflecting and stepping back and pause for a moment and three to make a communication process, the three eyes, interactive, anterior, connected, and interdependent. And that it's the start not to finish of a dynamic meaningful interaction. All three of those ingredients, although you slipped in

“five, they're really, are really important. The one I want to highlight for everyone is the reflective”

piece, taking a pause, taking a beat, a lot of us in our communication rush through it. I am glad we did not have to rush through today. And to your point, this is just the start of hopefully deeper conversation among the three of us, but also everybody listening to take away the advice from you. Find mentors and guides, think about how you tell stories and connect, make them concise,

make them empathetic. Gentlemen, thank you. This was a true pleasure. I'm glad we finally made it

happen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast Talks Smart, the podcast. This episode was produced by Catherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Iberhams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to podium podcast company. Please find us on

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