889: There’s Something About Hail Mary

If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org.

“Desperate times, my friends, go for Desperate measures, or it wasn't college when something”

mysterious happened. She was at her computer editing. And I was editing, editing, looking at this computer, and my eyesight started to go blurry. And I just couldn't really see the computer that well, and I was like, I need to stop. I can't really see any more, and I was walking home and like, everything's just blurry.

And I got to examine her, and said there's nothing wrong with her eyes to cause the blurness. And then, oh, I remember I had weird heart palpitations. So I went to the doctor to get an EKG, and they were like, you seem to find maybe you're just in love. Pause on that. That was really a thing that happened to you.

And you showed up at medical symptoms, and they said, maybe you're in love.

Yeah. She was actually following in love, but she did not think that explained the heart palpitations. She was starting to get the feeling that people were not taking her seriously, and things were getting worse. It just feels like everything my body is breaking in a weird way.

Terrible fatigue, horrible brain fog, and this feeling and the left side of my brain.

“It was like, the best way I can describe it is I feel like an ace cream scoop has been”

taken out of my head. Symptoms like that come and go for two years, blurry vision, who gags a week in tremble. Her throat swells up and feels like she's being strangled, and then some stuff is constant, which is exhausted but can't sleep, pressure headaches, it's hard to think.

This derail's her life, she's always taking time off from work, showing up late in the

day, can't be on the computer for too long, which limits what jobs she can get, she's going to the doctor all the time, she's tired to go out with friends at night, remember she's in her 20s, hit the bone reddit, of course, reddit, we did believe that she may have rhyme to zeas, even though she'd already been tested for rhyme to zeas, and it came up negative, no rhyme, a different doctor, not tester again, and this time she tested positive

for rhyme. So, the doctor prescribes the standard treatment for rhyme, that's a cyclone, the semi-biotic, doesn't work for her, then she spends two years on other antibiotics and other drugs, those failed to, maybe it's possible, this is because she didn't really have rhyme disease. The second test she took for rhyme was not an FDA-approved test, this is the nightmarish

world of rhyme, this whole debate over who really has it, and who just has symptoms, but more is point of view, the question was moved, she had the symptoms, she wanted them gone, regular doctors weren't doing it, so she started looking at all the other treatments and people try for these symptoms, and there were a lot of them, she had a sessions in a hyperbaric chamber, gets inside an infrared sauna.

I tried this like elimination diet where all I could eat was like grapefruit and goat cheese, and oatmeal, I tried a very intense regimen of Chinese herbs that a doctor in New York City invented and manufactured himself, but every turn you're like, "Am I being preyed upon?" I'm spending so much money. This drug's on, for years, just floating in this unpleasant vortex in interstellar medical space

where nobody's got answers, is this so bad that she leaves her job in the middle of a contract, because it was too hard to make it through the day. She was from New York to the Arizona desert, thinking that might help, and now it's five years since her symptoms are disappeared. It was just looking down this road that looked really bleak, and this was around the time

when I was working with a chronic disease life coach who was starting to say things like,

“"Well, what would it be like if you never get better?”

Why don't we start thinking about that, like, to have kind of radical acceptance?" And I felt very resistant to that. But sort of teetering on the precipice of, like, giving up. It was at this point that Oras mom heard about somebody in Oras situation who supposedly got cured, and sent order to that doctor.

And he's yet to the treatment where he was going to put a common product. This is something you get at any drug store for cheap, indoor veins with an IV. I am not going to tell you what this product is because this is so unproven. The Centers of Disease Control has said there is no evidence of this works. In fact, this is a toxin.

It would do equal damage to healthy and diseased cells. The infectious diseases society of America has warned against trying this, because the dangers outweigh these utterly unproven benefits. But this doctor? He thought that would cure it, but he seems very confident.

And his explanation for why I hadn't heard of this before was, because it's so accessible and so cheap and so affordable. Big farmer doesn't want you to have it. No, when someone says an argument like that to you, are you the kind of person who's like, yes, I'm in because I hate big farmer or are you the kind of person who's like, I don't know.

I'm both. It's like somehow is open, but I'm also very aware of how crazy it sounds.

It did sound crazy to you.

“Yeah, I think anytime a medical doctor is telling you something that sounds like a conspiracy”

theory, it's warrant for concern. Yeah. But at this point, I'm like, I mean, I can't think clearly. I'm so tired. I'm so eager to move on with my life that I'm really feeling like willing to try anything. And I think I didn't do as much research as one might imagine. I did more research than her. These are a little sister of Eva joining the interview. And the way I heard about this story is that if Eva works here at the radio show,

if Eva was a cornfowd, she'd watch her sister suffer for years, more at about her.

This treatment? I was very scared. I mean, I was really fixated on this article that I sent her about this woman who had died, who did the IV, and then within 36 hours was dead. And I

“thought, doesn't seem worth it. It's true. The danger of this particular treatment is that I might”

kill you with, again, no solid studies showing that it works. And when you showed that to her, what did she say? She was freaked out by it, obviously, but was just kind of like, the current state and how I feel also isn't sustainable. I really, my preference would be to have a sister who was sick and alive rather than a dead sister. It's like, you'd prefer a devil's sister who was sick and alive than when he was dead. And it's like not to be overly

dramatically. I certainly didn't want to die, but I was like, I don't want to be the sister who's sick and alive like this really sucks. And my current state is just so unpleasant. And so confused and exhausted. Like, it was just like reaching a point of like, this is not a way to really live. Yeah. If there was a chance it could work, I wanted to try it. It's like a Hail Mary Pass. Yeah. Total Hail Mary. So fully knowing that this killer, she got the IVs, fourth over a few weeks.

And this is not really the result I would have predicted. Her symptoms went away. The ice cream scoop in her head, the brain fog, the fatigue, the achiness, all of it. Maybe the IV treatment that's going to do with this? Maybe it didn't. I've not spoken with three lime experts and researchers who could not explain this result. This is the kind of thing that you would want to do a proper scientific study on. Because the world has filled with things

that seem to work in one isolated case and then really don't prove out. It also managed to reach orders doctor. And the one thing that he said to me in an email was that he was convinced that it was not the IV that injured her symptoms. But one of the other things that he tried with her, he delivered her other supplements and pills. And then he goes to me without saying what that thing was that he thought worked. Wouldn't reply to repeated emails and texts and aura and she looks back

on it now. She thinks it's kind of nuts. Like she got your cured for sure. But to be that desperate that you feel you have no other choice. So you throw everything you have into something that

not always seems unlikely to succeed. Sometimes it's genuinely terrifying. That is not a place

anybody ever wants to be. Like this IV treatment. Like it doesn't it doesn't seem like a good idea. You can't look back on it and be like well given the information we had at the time we made the best decision we could. It's like no that was a bad idea and some of it turns out bad that it's like

“you have no end to blame by yourself. But if it turns out good and I guess that's what the”

home area is. It's like a bad idea that has the potential to work. We're laying our program. People in bad situations with no other options going for crazy long shots. They hope against hope are going to fix the impossible situations they've found themselves in. Our entire episode today my friends happens in the fourth quarter. Seconds left in the game. After coming from 29 points behind far far from the basket throwing a ball that really

looks like it's going to be short. Wind is that ever workout. WB EZ Chicago it's this American life. I'm out of glass. Stay with us. To American Life Act 1 12 weeks notice. So some jobs. The entire premise of the job is that every day you're going to go up against impossible odds on a mission that is probably not going to succeed. And then you have to go to work.

co-workers at cereal by people like that. It's about defense attorneys who work with death throw inmates.

“In Texas where this particular story takes place. His kinds of appeals to get people off death”

row fail 94% of the time. And hearing this series. For other news stories and movies that are similar about lawyers in that job. It showed size of it that really surprised me. I don't think I really got some things about the people who do that job and what that job is until I heard this

series. And so they are at us to pull a few scenes from the first two episodes to play for you here

so you can get a sense of this. We'll start at the top of the show. Here's how they open the series. Marie Shimano of the Marshall Project is the host. In the fall of 2024 a criminal defense lawyer got the kind of phone call that most lawyers can only dream about. It could turn to client of his like I named David Wood. One of Texas's most notorious serial killers. He was sitting on death row, months away from his execution. I would like to just go to see something about David Wood.

Why? Don't condone what has happened in that case. The man on the phone, George Hall,

“thought something corrupt had gone down and David Wood's trial. It had happened more than 30 years”

ago but for 30 years he'd said nothing. Mostly because he was afraid too. For those 30 years he'd been on parole. He worried if he aggravated the authorities they might find some way to send him back to prison. But now his parole had ended and George Hall was ready to tell his story. Was she eventually put into a sworn declaration? That story goes like this. Back in the late 80s George Hall and David Wood were locked up together at the eastern unit in Texas.

George Hall was in for murder. David Wood was in for rape. They weren't particularly close. David Wood was quiet, didn't talk much. But when he did George says it was mainly to complain about how the police in his hometown of El Paso were harassing him, investigating him for a

series of murders. Basically what he said was the El Paso was trying to pin it on him.

David Wood insisted he had nothing to do with those murders. George thought maybe he didn't, maybe he did, either way he didn't really care. Eventually George and David Wood were separated. We've to different facilities hundreds of miles apart. One day George says he's in the prison library ready to go to lunch when two officers come in and tell him to pack his stuff. "That's a war in my going, I wouldn't tell me." "So, next thing I know I'm on a bus ride

down to El Paso." A few hours later, George finds himself in a holding cell in the El Paso County jail. Two other guys join him in there. George recognizes them both as guys who had settled with David Wood. And one of them says to the group, "They have an opportunity. They can all get money, maybe, or less prison time. All they have to do is snitch on David Wood." Soon enough, they're escorted out of the cell and into a car. And George says, "That's when the cops start

rolling out the red carpet." "They give us the two teeny drive up the mountainside, look across the Rio Grande, looking to old Mexico with this and that and whatever,

“you know nothing or think of myself. We're not handcuff. What if we jump out and run?”

What are they going to do then, you know?" But he said tight. George says they're taking to a hamburger joint for lunch and then ultimately to a police station. The guys are offered coffee, snacks, cigarettes, and then they're ushered into a room with detectives. "Of course they got files everywhere. They got David Wood's name passed it all over the world, they got arrows and lands going to this, this, dates wrote down. Files are sitting there.

They've started handing us files. We got this on him. We got this on him. We got this. He did this. We know this. This, this, this, this, and going through all facts and stuff, they're, this narrative driven shit and you've reading what they got. And then they after that they go, "You know anything?" "Well, I don't know a goddamn thing. All I had to do is ask me to prison you. I was

mad or shit about it." "That's for the other two guys." "They go back, they're talking to each other, but it's in real low town." And they basically don't want anyone talking to me about nothing. "So I knew to myself right in and there. They don't want to say whatever they want them to say." They're going to tell the police that David Wood confessed to multiple murders. But George is sure these guys don't actually know anything about David Wood.

He would have heard about it already. Plus, he knows they're not above lying. George returns to prison. Not long after, he writes to an El Paso Prosecutor about, quote, "imperpriities that I am aware of." He says he knows the informants are fabricating

their stories. The prosecutor never writes back, but the letter does make its way into David Wood's

to testify, but the two other guys become the star witnesses for the prosecution.

“The jury can fix David Wood, and he's sentenced to death.”

Court documents show that after the trial, one of the informants received $13,000 in real-world money. The other got his own capital murder charge dropped. Identified more than it does in officers, detectives, and supervisors who were involved in David Wood's case. I wanted to ask them about George Hall. Some were dead, one had dementia, one hung up on me,

and others never responded. But the one detective who did speak to me extensively about the case,

called George's whole story, quote, "proposterous." George and the two others were brought in together, and interviewed by the El Paso Police, that's documented in court records. But the detective said he couldn't imagine his colleagues taking prisoners out for a joy ride

“and showing them case materials in order to get them to snitch.”

For more than 30 years after David Wood's trial, George kept tabs on the case, Googled it from time to time. And in 2024, George saw the David Wood was scheduled for execution,

and George was finally off parole. So if he was going to speak up, it was now or never.

"No one that I don't know two people fabricated testimony to get a guy executed, and I don't say anything about it." Not long after George Hall called David Wood's lawyer, David Wood's lawyer emailed me, asking me to write about the case. I wasn't surprised. I'm a journalist at a non-profit called the Marshall Project, where we cover the criminal justice system. I'm the death penalty guy on

“staff, as gloomy as that sounds. But I was surprised by who was asking, Greg Warchuck.”

I know Greg Warchuck as a big deal in capital defense work. He's been defending people on death row for decades, and even stopped one execution by winning at the Supreme Court. I'd asked him for an interview a year ago, for a book I was writing on the death penalty. He said no. He rarely spoke to reporters. But now here he was in my inbox. His email was polite and panicky. David Wood's execution date was only 17 weeks away. He wanted me to write about the case,

and all the problems he saw with it. I was pretty skeptical. I did the hard-hitting research of reading the Wikipedia page about David Wood and, well, six women and girls, one as young as 14, killed and buried in the desert outside of El Paso. David Wood even got one of the spooky serial killer nicknames, the desert killer. Greg wrote to me that David Wood was innocent, that he didn't commit any of these murders. And sure, I did find George Hall's story compelling,

but even if those informants were lying at the trial, that doesn't mean David Wood didn't do it. Plus, in order to do the story Greg was pitching, I'd have to reinvestigate it from scratch, all six murders in a matter of weeks. That sounded impossible. But I was curious about what Greg was up to. His overall project, trying to sew enough doubt at the last minute in order to save his client's life. I'd seen executions get staged for procedural claims about execution methods,

or a defendant's mental fitness, but this wasn't just a claim about an unfair trial. Greg was saying David Wood didn't do it at all. And now, somehow, he's supposed to prove that in a few months. So I told Greg, I'm not going to do the big feature story on David Wood you're imagining. But what if I follow you around? Be there with a microphone, as you strategize with your team, hunt for witnesses, and try to persuade people of David Wood's innocence with the clock ticking.

Greg had a million reasons to say now. I'm still kind of shocked that he said yes.

So that's the premise. Marie's is going to follow this defense team. And before we get to some of what he witnesses doing that, we should run through the evidence against David Wood in this murder conviction. Marie's, thank you for talking me through this right now. Yeah, thanks for having me here. Just a quick heads up for listeners that these crimes are pretty awful and might not be right

the evidence that God David Wood, the death penalty? So the person who really walked us through the

“evidence was a detective who worked on the case. His name is John Guerrero. He was with the El Paso Police”

Department. And he's retired now and he invited my serial producer Alvin Melleth and I do his house in El Paso introduced himself as Johnny. It's one of the biggest cases of his career and he seemed to like talking about it. You can ask me, is there any doubt in your mind that this is the man that committed this heinous crimes against these little girls? None? What? So none? None. So this begins in the summer of 1987 and there are two county employees working in the desert

outside of El Paso and Johnny says they saw a leg sticking out of the sand. The police checked it out and they found out that it was a woman named Rosemary Acasio. She was in her 20s and then they searched

the area around her and pretty quickly they find a second body about 50 feet away. It's a woman

named Karen Baker. She's 20 and she's a mother of three young children. And then over the next few months they find a total of six bodies in this area of the desert. Two of the victims are girls in

“middle school and then their ages run up into their early 20s. Middle school kids. I know it's really”

it's awful. The detail that really stuck out to me was that they could identify the girl who'd been in eighth grade in part because they found her t-shirt or all the other kids had signed their names on the last day of school. And it turns out that that girl's mother becomes a real leading force in this case and she pushes Johnny to see all of these murders as connected first of all and then to go talk to other middle school kids to try to get clues or tips from them about who might have done it.

And in fact they do get clues. Let's play a little bit from the podcast of where you get into that. We started getting information from from several people about this this white guy that was going around in a bait truck and also in a motorcycle. El Paso has majority Hispanic so this detail

a white guy stood out to Johnny. The kids say the sky was always around. Giving weeds to them

and buying them beer and that kind of stuff. And then also we were told that he was real focused on these young girls, you know, real young girls, 15, 16-year-old old girls. And I don't remember who it was but somebody gave us this nickname Sketer. In old tapes from this investigation, you hear this name come up a lot. Sketer.

“Did you ever hear any of the kids mention a guy by the name of Sketer?”

If I offered him some marijuana or something like that? You knew him by a nickname by Sketer. And how long had you known him? And then we started asking people about this guy Sketer, Sketer, Sketer. And Sketer or Sketer? Sketer? Because that was the guy in the truck. That was the guy in the truck here. Somebody said, well, Sketer is a guy that just got out of prison.

Sketer is who? And his name is David Wood, I guess. David Wood. Of course we run his name. The mechanics of how Sketer and David Wood get linked are hazy. And the recordings I listened to, most of the kids had no idea who Sketer was. And the ones who say Sketer was David Wood, it's not clear if they put that together themselves,

or if they were repeating the connection that the cops made. In any case, when Johnny learns more about David Wood's criminal record, he discovers a rap sheet that's long and egregious. Multiple sexual crimes against girls. One is here in his 12th. And the timeline tracks. David Wood had been released from prison

less than a month before the first of these victims disappeared.

So, you know, I mean, right away, the antennas go up, you know, the red lights start blinking and what heavy, you know? Okay, so that is what makes David Wood, Johnny's prime suspect. But Maurice, as you say in the show, just having a nickname and a history of crimes, even very disturbing crimes, that is actually not enough to put him away for six murders. They also get the two jailhouse witnesses that you talked about in the show's opening. And then there's one bit of physical

evidence that connects David Wood to the crime. Yeah, it was surprising to me that there was only one bit of physical evidence. It's a set of orange fibers, probably from a blanket. And these are threads that came from David Wood's vacuum cleaner, like the bag and his vacuum cleaner. And then they were also found with one of the victim's bodies in the desert. And then the other big thing that Johnny's got. But, and there's probably the most substantial

thing that connects wood to these murders is this woman named Judith Kelling. Tell her story. Judith Kelling was a sex worker in El Paso in the 80s, and she's deceased now, but she came forward and did a recorded interview with Johnny. David is Monday, November the 16th, 1987. She came forward shortly after some of the women were found in the desert. And she said she'd been

wanted to go, but instead invited her to do cocaine with him, the desert. So he drives her out there

“and pulls out a shovel and also some rope. So this is from her interview. And he took the shovel”

and he started digging and he came back. He got the blanket. And he told me, he took me, he made me get out the truck. I didn't want, I told him, just take me back. And he kept calling me a bit. He goes, don't turn around, bitch. And I was, I was getting panicked, scared, because I thought he was going to try something with me. Judith Kelling says that he tied her up and raped her. And there are a lot of creepy details. Like he kept telling her to say that she was

14 years old. And then he hears some voices nearby and gets spooked. And he leaves her out in the middle of the desert to find her own way home. The police give Judith a photo line up and she identifies David Wood as the guy. And she takes the police to where she was raped. And Shawnee tells me that it's about 50 yards from where the murder victims were found. And then as you explained in the show, the police arrest wood for the rape. He denies it. But he's convicted and he

“goes to prison. And then with him in prison, Johnny tries to connect him to the six murders.”

Yeah, and it takes a long time. But the jury has convinced and they only deliberate for like 90 minutes before sensing him to death. And so in your podcast, if you explain all the background, then your series really gets going. And then we really get into the meet of it. And we follow the defense attorneys led by Greg Warchuk as they try all kinds of different tactics and meet with all sorts of people to try to stop David Wood's execution. They have just 12 weeks.

They go to a district attorney. They go to a TV newsperson. They hear about somebody who thinks they're dead. May have committed at least some of the six murders. And they have to decide if that is worth running down. I have to say I was really surprised at how many different roads they could go down and had to choose between. Yeah, he had a lot of them to choose between. Greg actually got the original list of police suspects. And there were 36 of them on it. And

“some of them did seem promising. So there was one man who failed a polygraph test about the murders,”

which I know those are unreliable, but he did fail it. So Greg's team runs that one down, and Alvin and I had actually knocked on some of these people's doors too, which we described in

the show. Basically Greg's theory on this case is that the cops had tunnel vision. They were

under all this pressure to solve the case. The victim's families were demonstrating in public. And so they took every bit of evidence and massaged it to fit David Wood, or discarded it if it fits someone else. And so with all that in mind, let's just pick up with your show at this scene that happens in your second episode. Greg has just been to the courthouse to re-examine some of the physical evidence in the trial that the orange fibers. It is 50 days

before David Wood's execution is scheduled to take place. On the way out of the courthouse, Greg says he wants to grab one more thing from a clerk. He asks for any and all criminal records related to a guy named Michael Plyler. This is a new name to me. It wasn't on the Al Paso PD's list of 36 suspects. But the other night, Greg came across Plyler's name, an old state records, along with a picture of a truck, which looked a lot like David Wood's truck. So Greg wondered,

could this all be a case of mistaken identity? He wants to look through Plyler's criminal files, to see if there's anything in there that might tie him to the case beyond the truck. Like if you went by the nickname "Sketer." Because Sketer is the snake name that keeps

hopping us throughout the case as David Wood, but David Wood's never used that as a nickname,

so it seems a bit odd that that would be a name he would be giving to people. This depends on believing David Wood about the nickname, which Greg does. But either way, this Plyler deep dive seems to me like a real long shot. And it reminds me of a criticism I've heard a lot, mostly from prosecutors and judges. They say lawyers like Greg have years to do this stuff, but they wait until the last minute so they can maximize the drama. I ask him about this.

So these are files that you've got for a long time here to tell. I guess I wondered if this name had all emerged? Yeah, and something you just got. No, yeah, but it's a padded for a long time, and he said, "It's buried in 12,000 pages, right?" He says it's buried in 12,000 pages of records. His point being that, yes, he's technically had Michael Plyler's name for years, but he's been working solo for much of that time,

so he's had to pick and choose what to focus on. But it's also true that Greg is incentivized to stretch this out as much as possible. To show up a court with new information right before the execution. That way, the judges will be so overwhelmed, they'll have to hit the pause button, and Greg's client gets to live another day. In fact, Greg's already been accused, pretty harshly, of delaying David Wood's execution in all kinds of ways. In 2009, Wood was about

to be put to death, and a day before it, Greg got them to delay, by arguing the David Wood

for them to rule on it. Then they spend years arguing over evidence that was never DNA tested.

“Last year, a judge summarizing the last 15 years of this case, accused David's defense of a quote,”

"pattern of piecemeal litigation and delay." Over those years, Greg has filed motions to replace prosecutors to claim a judge had a conflict of interest to test this or that bit of evidence. He lost all these arguments, but the judge's point was, this guy just throws spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks, and he does it one noodle at a time. Other lawyers get accused of the same things. There's a perception on the part of prosecutors

and also lots of judges that lawyers like Greg are such extreme anti-death penalty zealots that they're willing to bend the rules if not outright break them. Greg and I finish up at the courthouse around lunchtime. Before we head back to the hotel, we propose as we swing by someone's house first. A woman he's been trying to talk to for some

“time now, Ramona Dismuix. Her importance as a witness is kind of questionable. She was best friends”

with a girl who disappeared back in 1987. A lot of people in El Paso assumed David Wood was

responsible, but police never found evidence and he wasn't convicted of it.

It's the kind of witness I could imagine skipping, but Greg decides it's worth a try. We pull off the highway and drive up to this small house, where a guy with a mohawk is hauling stuff out to a dumpster. Greg hops out of the car and talks to him. He comes back looking defeated. But as we're pulling away, I see a woman in the rear of you mirror. Greg leads the woman towards the car and I roll down my window. What's your name? I'm sorry.

Everyone is half interrupting each other. Ramona tells us the mohawk guy is actually her husband. She moved out of state and is just back to do renovations. She seems excited to

“talk to Greg, but says the house is too much of a mess to invite him in. She suggests another spot.”

I mean, there's like a water burger up the street, right around the corner. Okay, and I can hear your husband said you might have like files and records still. I still have all of the old articles. I have everything. All right, well, Naomi and Halvin meet us at the water burger. As the only native Texan in this group, I feel obligated to say water burger is a

state institution, but it is not a great place to do an interview. There's loud music, soda fountains and fryers going, people coming in and out. Ramona blazes in, big expressive face. Her hair is wild and curly. Some of the layers died cherry red. She slaps down this giant binder, very dusty, that says Mona's articles. She also goes by Mona. In cursive letters, next to what looks like a cigarette burn. It's full of old newspaper clippings that leave

flakes on the table. Apparently, all those years Greg was developing his theories of what really happened in 1987. Ramona was nursing her own. El Paso is a pretty big city, but Ramona talks about it like a small town. David Wood, the police, the victims, their parents, everybody knows everybody, as if somehow they all went to high school together. Even this water burger is relevant in a way. Ramona tells us she got involved in this case because of

her best friend, Cheryl Vasquez. When they were still teenagers, Cheryl married Ramona's brother, which made them best friends and sisters in law, and Cheryl. She worked right here at this water

burger. This is where she worked. When she went missing, she was working here and she never even got her

last check from this place because she was gone. But Cheryl was 19 when she disappeared. The same summer as all the desert killer victims. When bodies started turning up in the desert, Ramona was worried that Cheryl was going to be one of them. She felt the cops weren't looking hard enough for her friend. So she enlisted her mom and they decided to figure out what happened to Cheryl themselves. They knew Cheryl was less seen at this one circle cake convenience store. And so they came up with,

frankly, a totally bonkers plan. We started hanging out that circle cake. My mom was literally tricking me. She was like, "Listen on that wall," and somebody's going to come and try to kidnap you and I'll call the cops and we'll get them. And we'll know who it was, and I'm like, "Okay." She was like a real character from what I... She was by seeing him alone and she died. She had me sitting on that wall in little shorts, 17 years old, waiting to get me kidnapped. I'm like,

"Thanks Mom." But... By way of explanation, Ramona says that her mom was quote "jerman." The lawyers don't ask her to explain more. But it's strange as the plan was, there was some logic to it. Ramona and Cheryl were about the same age. And according to Ramona looked so alike

to lure out the desert killer. Ramona says that she and her mom did the circle cake routine over a few days with no luck. Then, one afternoon, she was sitting on a wall outside the store in her shorts when she saw a truck approach. Where to round town was that the desert killer drove a beige or a brown truck. One day, this brown truck came rolling in and went to the store and came out and looked over at me and was like, "Oh, shit. Throw a quarter at me. Go home. Go home.

Go home. Your family's looking for you. They said I stole you. The cops didn't ask any questions.

“You need to take your ass home and I'm like, "Who are you talking to?"”

And I didn't know. This was how Ramona first met David Wood. At this point, the cops were

starting to zero and on him for the disappearances, including Cheryl's. And he knew it. He mistakenly thought Ramona was Cheryl because, again, they looked alike. So that part of the plan actually worked. Ramona says he tossed a quarter at her as in, "You are the girl the cops think I abducted. Please use this quarter to call home on the payphone. Tell everyone you're safe." Ramona goes on to tell us about the surprising relationship that

developed between her, her mom and David Wood. Something between a friendship and a covert op. David Wood himself remembers spending time with the two of them. But what he didn't know is that they were also spying on him. Ramona says her mom started inviting David Wood to their house. He'd come over, she'd give him coffee, they'd hang out, they'd talk. My mom bought him a slick. And she was. My mom was like, "You know, I'm going to say

“her and talk to him, you go search his truck, you know." She says she stole David Wood's keys,”

and rifled through his truck, trying to find something incriminating. But she never did.

She also saw him getting nauseous around blood. She cut her hand in front of him once, which, while not exactly exonerating, didn't scream serial killer either. For Ramona and her mom, it all added up to one thing. David Wood could not be the desert killer. Ramona says her mom was eager to help clear his name. My mom immediately called the detectives. He's the wrong guy. You got the wrong guy because he didn't

came at my daughter and she looks just like Cheryl. And he threw him a quarter at her and told her to go home. And you know, my mom's German, very feisty, very loud. She's like, "That I got her to shout." So they're like, "Oh, we want to come and talk to you." The police came to the house and asked Ramona to come down to the station to give a statement to detectives. She was sketched out. Now I'm not going to give you a statement. They said, "Well,

we want to show you something." So they put me in the car and took me out to the desert. And they're like, "You know, there's bodies out here and it would be really easy for you to be out here." And they wanted me to write a statement. They told me out there in the desert. We need you to go back and write a statement. We need you to tell us that David Wood tried to take you. I said, "But he didn't try to take me. He threw a quarter at me and told me to go home."

I said, "Well, that's not what we need you to say." I said, "But that's not the truth." And they said, "You know, you look just like all the other girls that are gone. This could be you." And I was like, "Are you threatening me?" And they're like, "Well, no, we're just telling you that if you don't put him away, he might take you." Ramona says the detectives who drove her out to the desert were Johnny Guerrero,

and his partner, Alfonso Marquez. She eventually put all of this in a sworn statement to the court. Ramona is not the first person to accuse these guys of abusing their power. There's George Hall, the guy who called Greg with the whole story of the jailhuston formats and the red carpet treatment, and later laid out his claims in a sworn declaration. According to trial transcripts, at least one other witness claimed the police tried to add

falsehoods to her statement. In a different case from around this time, a suspect told a reporter that Detective Guerrero bullied him into a false confession.

“We asked Detective Guerrero about that interrogation, and he said he didn't remember it.”

He also denied ever-taking Ramona out to the desert. Actually, what he said was, "She's full of shit."

Moreover, he told us in his 15 years in homicide, "I was never accused of any wrongdoing

or coercion by anyone I talked to, or any case I worked," unquote. Detective Marquez, for his part, died a couple of years ago, but it is worth noting that he had a reputation for lying and using force. In a different case, he allegedly bullied a 16-year-old kid to make him confess to two murders. The kid was later exonerated after serving nearly 20 years in prison. Watching the lawyer's interview Ramona, watching them jot down notes

at every twist and turn, I was struck by how absurd it was that this was where we found ourselves 50 days out from the execution. All of us huddled around a table in this waterburger, the lawyer's trying to piece together something useful from this same story. Ramona is entertaining, but since I'm not steeped in the case, it also seems like she mixes theories and stories and gossip and evidence so effortlessly, and it's such a rapid clip that it's a little hard

to keep up, much less to accept that all had face value.

take all of this, but they're more or less statues, very stoic, these two lawyers in a waterburger.

All of which to say, I'm not sure how to assess some of the other claims Ramona makes. The most explosive ones concern a very important person in the case against David Wood, Judith Kelling. And when I heard her name, I'm like, this is that rostitute that's saying David Rape Ter. Judith Kelling was the woman who claimed David would rape her out in the desert. Ramona says she was out one day looking for her sister-in-law who was still missing,

when she spotted Kelling and cycled up to her. So I'm like, playing it cool with her and I'm like, oh yeah, you know, I'm looking for my sister and I didn't even know. And she's like,

“oh, the David Wood thing. She's like, yeah, you know, that's all bullshit. And I was like, what do you mean?”

And she's like, he didn't do anything to me. Really?

She told you this in, after David Wood's arrested in October of 19th, and he was already charged with her rape when he was charged with before he was killed. You can tell him Greg's voice, how much he would love to poke holes in Judith Kelling's credibility. It's something he's been trying to do for years. For example, he found one source who gave a sworn statement to the court that Judith Kelling had been a police informant. And specifically, that she'd been detective

Johnny Guerrero's informant when she reported her rape. Judith also spent long stretches in jail around this time and drug charges. On top of that, Greg has noticed that her story of what exactly happened in the desert kept changing, getting more and more aligned with other things the police believed about David Wood and the murders. Greg uses these points to make an argument in court filings. Desperate to solve the murders, Detective Guerrero squeezed an equally desperate Judith

Kelling to point the finger at David Wood. We asked Detective Guerrero about all of this and he denies that Kelling was ever his informant. Judith Kelling died a decade ago, so Greg can't ask her about it. But here in this water burger, Ramona claims Kelling were a field of much more to her about what really went down. What she's telling me, they made a deal with me to get me out of

“jail and all I got to do is just try against this guy. I was like, what were you even raped?”

She's like, yeah, but not by him. Like who? She said, my pliler. I'm like who's this guy? Mike Pliler? What? The same guy Greg asked about at the court house a few hours ago? The one I thought was a long shot. I look over at Greg and I can see he's just a surprise. He's barely able to contain himself, nodding so hard. It's like he's swaying. Ramona says that after she got Mike Pliler's name from Judith, she and her mom looked for the guy,

and well, basically stalked him. They staked out as apartment, watched him come and go. They were

blown away by the similarities between this man and David Wood. Similar builds, similar tattoos. On top of the similar trucks, they also both drove red motorcycles. I can practically see the gears turning and Greg's mind. And as the waterburger fills with the sound of someone making the world's loudest milkshake, he tosses out one more question. Do you have any information about this nickname skater that supposedly is-- That's Peter. My pliler skater.

Well, when you say that, how do you know that he's skater?

“That's what Judith called him. That's what she called him. She called him skater.”

So, that skater. Ramona says that she went to the cops back in 1987 and told them everything she learned about David Wood, about Judith Kelling, and about Michael Pliler. And she says the cops did, nothing. They could have, for example, looked more into Pliler, gotten some DNA samples, polygraphed him. Instead, Ramona says they simply told her to stay away.

Ramona's whole story is wild, obviously. And as we wrap up at the waterburger, it's not clear to me how Greg is going to use it all. Whether he's going to try to corroborate any of these details, they're not sure that's really possible. I can imagine what a prosecutor might say. For example, the Judith Kelling story that it wasn't David Wood who raped her? Well, the state could point to trial testimony from Kelling's sister, who said Judith identified

David Wood as the rapist right after it happened. Greg could go after the sister's credibility. But the question remains, why would Judith Kelling make a grand revelation to Ramona? A teenager she just met. There's also a question about Ramona's motivations. I found it all news story that says she was banned from the El Paso County jail. She had allegedly graffitied "I Love David Wood" on the wall of a visiting booth.

Ramona denies it and says people were just out to turn his reputation, because she was questioning the police department's version of events. Still, not a great thing to have out there on the internet. But what's most useful to Greg, I think, are all those moments when the cops appear to have

or when she says they ignored the pliler story. Especially if the state didn't tell wood's

“lawyers about this stuff before his trial. I wouldn't call these bomb shells, but I would call them”

good evidence. And you could argue that Greg only found it all because the execution date forced him to knock on every door one more time. I ended up calling my pliler a few weeks later. He confirmed that he did live in El Paso during the time in question. His tone got a little sharp when I asked if he went by the nickname "Sketer," he interrupted me and said quote, "That's false." When asked about raping anyone or being the

desert killer, he said quote, "I haven't done nothing. I don't have nothing to hide."

After we hung up, I sent him a bonus claims. He ghosted me.

I do feel for him. This whole episode made me see just how easy it is for anyone to be accused of pretty egregious stuff in a legal filing. In this case, rape and being a suspect in a serial murder case.

“All because some stranger mentions your name and a waterburger.”

We've all we had to use pliler's name, given how much it showed up in the lawyers' legal filing, but we also felt like this man deserves every possible opportunity to respond. So, after I sent a ton of follow-ups that went unanswered, Alvin and I decided we just had to try in person. Pliler lives in a mid-sized city in the south. When we got to his house, there were a

couple of warning signs about a pitbull, and then we heard barking. I did see a dog through the window,

pretty cute, actually. Pliler opened up just to tell us quote, "I'm not interested." I asked if I could give him a folder with Ramona's claims. He suggested I throw it in the garbage. I leaned over to put it on the door mat, and by the time I stood back up, the door was closed. The whole thing lasted maybe 10 seconds. I haven't been able to reach him since. Maurice Chema, that is from his brand new podcast the last 12 weeks, which is made by serial

with the New York Times and the Marshall Project. You can hear the rest, the promising leads, the disappointing leads, the far-fetched leads, everything they try in this true-life crime story. When you do, I just want to give you a heads up. You've now heard about 10 minutes of episode one, and like 15 minutes of episode two, so most of those two episodes, you're going to want to go back, and hear the stuff we haven't included today. You can hear that the last 12 weeks,

wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up, people tossing out a real-life messaging in a bottle. Every single Sunday, hoping someone will respond. That's in a minute. I'm going to talk about the radio when our program continues. It's this American life from our class. Today's show, there's something about Hail Mary. This is an earlier, we're spending this entire hour in the last two minutes of the fourth quarter

with people who are behind and desperate, trying any damn thing they can think of. We've arrived at Act 2 of our program, Act 2, bottle episode. What is the plural of Hail Mary? Is it Hail Mary's? It seems like it should be the Hail part, that gets to be the part of this plural, because that's the action, right? That's the thing that's happening, but just Hail Mary just sounds weird. I asked this because Mickey, has this story where you need the

plural. I, Isha Wallace, Palo Maras, came across this thing sort of by accident. She's an immigration reporter for a website called LA Taco, and she heard about a lot of people gathering every week outside of detention center called Otai, Mesa, and San Diego. It's an pretty desolate spot. It's rited by industrial parks and mountains with offroading trails. I think when I actually

“when I first walked up, I think kiss was played. A kiss song was playing, and you know, I just remember”

very cozy, very friendly, very positive. Even though this was across, you know, you're looking at this detention center that has beige walls and two layers of fence with barbed wire. It's just like, you know, a very stark contrast. It was a whole group of people, about 150 who brought their dogs and kids. They wanted the people inside to know they were there, which is kind of a puzzle because of the fences. Hence the music, which they played pretty loud. They also flew kites and the

kids blew bubbles, hoping to get some of them over the detention center's balls. I Isha watched to pastor walk up to a microphone and speaker that was set up, and he turned around and faced the detention center, he said, "All right, everyone, I want you guys to like yell, you are not alone." "You are not alone, let's say, to the hostage behind us. You are not, to more times. You are not, there are more than 1,300 detainees inside Otai Mesa. And a lot of them don't have a good

There are these tablets they can use to tax or do video chats. But the reality is that they

have to pay to do any of that. And a lot of people land in detention without any money. And sometimes their families have no idea where they've been taken. They can try to look it up online and ice is detainee locator. But that's not always accurate for up to date. And if you're wondering, don't people have a right to a free phone call? The answer is no. And then I just kind of start to notice that they're like calling over the fence. The organizers ask for eight numbers.

Can you explain what the name number? Yeah, it's called an alien number. It's basically a number

“that is designated to someone who's a non-citizen. And a numbers are really important for family”

members to locate their loved ones when they've been detained. If they can get someone's A number, organizers can put money directly on their books. The organizers then started shooting people. Everyone went silent, which I sure thought was kind of strange until I heard people yell from inside the detention center. Wow. Someone was saying Rusea, so after a store organizer thought that they were requesting someone who speaks Russian. But then they were

realizing that the person inside was telling them that the A number they were sharing was Russian. They had translators on hand for at least 13 languages, including Arabic, Russian, Swahili, and Tagalog. A couple people stood by with notebooks and wrote A numbers into them. They then immediately tried sending money through these apps. Up to $20 per phone calls and text messages and another 45 for commissary. That was the goal. Get as many A numbers as possible.

It was hard to hear, even when everyone was quiet. You know, this is not like the easiest way to communicate, right? Like have you heard of this kind of thing happening at other detention centers

before? No, I have not. This is the first time that I had heard anything like this before.

Detainees were yelling from different outdoor yards, little patches of concrete with a single basketball hoop. So at some point someone started bringing a listening device with a parabolic dish.

“And it's not the only way they communicated. I guess there's like a drain in one of the yards or”

I'm not sure if it's in every yard. And so some of the detainees started like kneeling and like yelling through the hole. The organizers who called themselves the Otime Mesa Detention Collective told Aisha that the first time they realized they could communicate through bull horns and shouting, was shortly after they started gathering outside the detention center last wall. They were giving out tamales and bags of fruit to families coming for visiting hours,

when they heard a woman yelling from inside the detention center. She was yelling on behalf of another woman who was inside and far from her family. Here's a recording of that. She only 19 years old. What's her name? She's from Oxford, California. She wants her family to know

“she's here. What's her name? Her name was Yulisa and the her family did not know where she was.”

And so they were asking if the organizers could connect with the family or just get some help so that her family could know that she was in Otime Mesa. One of the organizers posted video of that exchange on Instagram and it went viral. Someone responded in a comment. She's my in-law. And then set up a go-fund me that said

Yulisa's family had been looking for her for a week. Until then, all they knew was that she never

showed up to pick up her one-year-old daughter from daycare. When I used to first saw that video, she thought it was something that had happened once. She didn't realize it was happening all the time until she was there. In the middle of all these eight numbers being shouted out, another thing happened. I was just like observing and I saw like people scramble, you know, the organizers sort of like scramble and say like, "There's a bottle,

there's a bottle, and then I see like a coercevic truck start to like kind of drive down. Coercevic is the private company that runs the detention center." It was a game of who was going to get their first the coercevic security truck or the visual attendee. And one of the visual attendee's

bottle was? It was a lotion bottle. You know, like a travel-sized lotion bottle and I was just in that

moment, like someone threw a bottle from inside the detention facility. You know, it's a pretty white distance to throw something over. They have to throw it from inside of this pod yard over the cement wall. And then it has to go across, I mean, I'm not sure how tall this fence is. Maybe like 14 to 20 feet tall and that has barbed wire on it and that's one fence. Then it's there's a little gap and there's another fence and it's also tall and barbed wire that is really wild.

Yeah, and I was just I had chills, you know, it's like that's insane. I measured it on Google Maps. The shortest distance they would have had to throw the lotion bottle is about 90 feet.

“I noticed that everyone kind of got excited and then I think I don't know if it was blue or”

Holly box over to me and says, you know, there was a note attached to the bottle and I was like,

what? Is it attached to it or is it inside of it? It's attached to it. I think they used the sort of like sticker on the bottle to sort of use that adhesive to like somehow attach the note to that and then that's like what it was wrapped on. So blue brings it over to you and she says, do you want to hold it? My stomach kind of dropped and I said yes. And I'm just holding this note in my hands and I'm reading it. I was wondering, can you read that message for me?

Yeah, I can. Good afternoon. My wife and I have been at OMDC since April 15th, 2025. It's cold here all the time and the food is poor. For two hundred and ninety days, we haven't eaten a single piece of fruit, banana, apple, orange or anything fresh. We are all in one big room with the no doors or windows. We can't see any grass or trees. We are all constantly sick. There is no internet. My lawyer was not given my phone calls.

Many people here have been sitting for 12, 14, 16, 18 months without a final court decision. I used to ask the main organizer, a preschool teacher with bright blue hair named Jean Wang.

Is this the first time someone had thrown a note over to them? And then Jean tells me that this

is not the first note that there's several notes that they've received, but this is the longest note that they've had. Most of them have had eight numbers, but she says that this person from inside was so desperate to have their story told that they had actually thrown another bottle

“with the same exact note earlier that day. What kind of other objects have come over?”

Loosen bottles, teodorant bottles, and I think you've been a double a battery. Most of what they got that day were eight numbers. Asia says about 50, mostly from people shouting and throwing bottles over with multiple numbers scrolled on them. I reached out to Khorusivic about the conditions described in the letter that I assured. They denied all the allegations, called them "flatly false" and inconsistent with their standards.

There have been reports for decades about inhumane living conditions in poor medical care at Otaimesa and other ice detention facilities. But these problems have gotten a lot worse since President Trump returned to office because the number of people in detention has increased so dramatically. Things like overcrowding, not getting enough food, or getting food that spoiled. Also,

“physical and verbal abuse from guards. One of the biggest issues right now,”

detainees needing medical treatment and not getting it. Over the past year, the death rate in ice custody has more than doubled compared to recent years. More than 50 people since President Trump came back to office. One of them was a Haitian man named Emmanuel Demos. He went into septic shock from a toothpick. It's worth noting that most people in ice detention facilities do not have a criminal record, crossing the border illegally, or overseen a visa is not a criminal offense.

It's a civil violation. An immigration detention is not supposed to be punitive like a prison. Many immigration lawyers believe the administration is trying to wear people down by holding them for long periods in these harsh conditions, so they'll give up on their cases and agree to deportation. While Isha was there, some of the detainees who got money put into their accounts sent tax messages to the organizers. They requested music they wanted organizers to last.

Others wanted their tax right out loud. We just got a tax from someone inside, and so she's going to read it for everybody here, okay? I put it into Google Translate, and it said, "Are you guys outside? We can hear you. We can hear you. We love you. Thank you." At the end of the day, the organizers asked Isha, "Please don't publish anything about how

the people inside, including the person who threw over the lotion bottle, and asked what they thought.

“The answer? Publish it. The detainees wanted the story out. They wanted people to know what was happening.”

Isha's story ran, and then, as predicted, there was retaliation according to detainees. They said that course of it turned down temperatures took away showers, limited tablet access and commissary time, and shut down the yard on Sunday afternoons when the organizers are outside. Which means no more messages on bottles thrown over fences. But it doesn't matter. The organizers now have

enough e-numbers, that they're communicating with hundreds of detainees. Bye, taxed.

Micky Meek is a producer on our show. When we reached out to court civic, they denied

“the temperatures inside the facility were kept deliberately uncomfortable, and they said they”

have a zero tolerance policy for retaliation against detainees. Ice did not respond to what requests for comment. You can find more of Aisha Wallace Palamarases reporting at the website L.A. Taco. The program was produced today by Aviva de Cornfeld. The people put together today's show include Adrian Lily, Mullimer, Cello, Katherine Ray, Mondo, Sto Nelson, Ruthy, Petito,

Robin, Reed, Nandi, Raymond, Anthony, Roman, Ryan, Romary, Francis, Swanson, Christopher,

“Zotala, and Julie Whitaker. A managing editor of Sara of Duramin, our senior editors, David”

Cestinbaum, our executive editor, is a manual prairie. Serials new series that we exerpted the last 12 weeks was produced by Elven Melleth, the series was edited by Jen Guera, along with the Anita Badajoh, additional editing by Julie Snyder, Sarah Canake, and a keep a Solomon, researched in fact checking by Ben Failin. Scoring by Adam Don, aka Motion Worker, Bethaya Spossey, John Evans of Stelwagon, Symphonet, additional music by Dan Powell,

and Marion Lizano, Phoebe Lanning, Katherine Anderson, Mixed The Show. Special thanks to David Scales, Mark Seloski, Dr. Charlotte Mayo, Dr. Evan E. Cornish, the San Diego Bike Brigade, the American Bar Association's Immigration Justice Project, the San Diego County Immigrant Legal Defense Program, Mac Miller, Sean Cole, Susan Wesleying, Alameen Sumar, Jackson Bush, Ruth Baldwin, Tom Mayer, Rita Reddethsdis, and Sean Devaney. Thanks to David this American

Life Partners who's in Hershey, Leslie Farron, Gabriel Road, Peter James, I hope that you will consider joining them as a Life Partner, and why? It allows us to keep making the program. They significant part of our budget now comes from our Life Partners, we're hoping that number is going to grow. To thank you, we'll give you dozens of bonus episodes that we've made that have come out so nicely. Try it and you'll see, to join, go to thisamericanlife.org/life

partners that Link is also in the show notes. Thanks as always to our programs co-founder, Mr.

Malatia, you know, people are always walking up to them and asking them, "How do I get into radio?" And he always tells them. So, you know, I mean right away, the antennas go up. America has back next week with more stories of this American life.