#674 - Scott Payne

of that undercover.

He infiltrated some of the most dangerous groups in America, motorcycle gangs, drug traffickers,

the cartel, he has a book out called Code Name Pale Horse, how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis. We go way down the rabbit hole in this one. We want to let people know that some of this the stories in this one can be a little bit graphic.

I had a nice chat with today's guest, Mr. Scott Payne, Scott Payne, the author of Code Name and Pale Horse, that's your book, and you have some good news to us all that big country they called you. Yeah, I'm more like some medium now, but yeah. Oh, yeah, you coming down, you de-escalated.

I'm aging.

“Where are you from, born and raised in Greenville, South Carolina?”

Oh, that's a beautiful city. Yeah, but born and raised there lived in Charleston, played ball in Charleston, South Carolina, but I'm in East Tennessee now, man. Hey, man. Well, welcome to Tennessee, dude, to catch our listeners up for those who don't know,

you spent 28 years in law enforcement, right? And so that was in police work, SWAT, FBI undercover, and that was undercover with drug trafficking cartels, white supremacist groups. What about your life before law enforcement made you think that that's a direction I want to go in?

Well, it's not. I mean, it's one of those things you look back and you get, oh, I can see what was happening. I didn't really know it was happening at the time, but I just love connecting with people. And I, I go in the great detail in the book, but like in high school, when I was in high school in the 80s, you had a smoke in area, you know, you know, there were cigarettes, you know,

“and then you had like, I could go, I could hang and almost every crowd.”

That's all. It's not saying I could be one of them necessarily. I could just be accepted, sir, potheads, I'm there, jocks, I'm there, musicians, I'm there. If you look back and you see these things, but something about, I don't know if it started when I became a cop, but like some of my mentors, there's a guy named Gary Ward.

He was at the Greenville County Sheriff's Office, it's up here a lot of. And he was the strongest man in the late 80s, so he came in after like Bill Casemar, he was a former Marine, but at that time he was a Marine and he won the heavyweight class and Ben Squadon deadlift. Now, he's on narcotics and he's this jack big dude with, yeah, goodness gracious.

That's him, oh my god. More baby. He got bigger and then more poor. Look at the thighs on them, they would damn sell them at auction. Yeah, when I met him, he had to, I mean, he had to be here and everything.

Yeah, maybe he'd damn go to the toilet and his yard just grows better. Dude, you know, I used to ask him like, we'd be at the gym and I'm like, I'm like, man,

I never see you doing like this exercise or exercise like this, but man, you're

neck and your shoulders are, he says, when you pick that much weight up off the ground, something's going to grow. It's like, all right, man, yeah, he used to bust my jobs, man, he helped me perfect my squad. Squad was my strongest lift.

So, you know, so he had a role model like that, kind of? And he had done undercover and biker stuff and I was becoming a biker, I mean, I grew up on motorcycles, but I mean, like Rodden, like American made, you know, hardly out there going to rallies and all that stuff.

“And he had done that and I don't know if that's what gave me the bug.”

All I know is that, like, it doesn't matter during that time frame, that 80s, 90s. It doesn't matter if it was the cheesiest undercat removing, I love them all. Hey, man. I love them all, man. Things like that have an effect on your life.

The people you meet in the gym have an effect on your life. So you get into police work over there in Greenville, South Carolina. Do you remember a day that it just got real, you're like, oh, this is, now it really feels real, kind of. Oh, man.

So if you're a uniform patrol, I mean, it's, most people, I guess if you're not a cop, you don't think this way or no it, but you just see so much trauma and stuff and you get these sensitized sort of, I mean, we compartmentalize it and that's, we're not very good at it.

And that's why first responders and I'm, and I'm including medic fire and military.

If we're not number one, we're very high for divorce. It was, uh, substance abuse and dying within five years after it's iron. So it's a pressure cooker, but like going in uniform, you can show up on all counts of stuff. I mean, I've, I've shown up and nothing more, there's plenty of men and women in law

enforcement that have done more insane more, but, you know, you go into a place and that's, you know, a trailer called on fire and the person died in the position where

Somebody gets hit by a train, you're finding pieces of stuff.

“Do you remember a day where you're like, I don't know if we're really trained for this,”

kind of? Um, well, the thing is jumping in my head right now, because I'm still a tactical instructor, I'm an instructor with alert, um, it's, it's spent with two hours, ALE, RRT, but the FBI and alert married in 2013 and it's the national standard for training law enforcement and how to respond to active shooter vans, so I was just, I was just, we were just putting

on the class last week and he's Tennessee. So that's a national organization alert. Yes, so we do get an all kinds of stuff, stopping the kill and stopping the dying and then you got to do casual evac, but that, what I was saying, if you were asking me about something like Greenville County, um, I had a good friend of mine died in the line of duty and, and

this is what we're trying to do. Well, in a time when we're training, we're just saying, man, just slow down, just a little bit, you know, I get it, you know, young gun.

“And I'm still got plenty of testosterone in me, and you want to just bust in there and”

run into rooms and there's a safer way to do it, um, but what happened to my friend is we weren't really getting the training at that time, but he was the city, I was, I was county, but he was city, but his, the edge bumped up to each other, right, so he, see somebody's got a lot of warmth on them, jumps out, chases, I'm on foot, chases, I'm into a building, somebody clocks him in the head with a board and now you got tunnel vision,

there's like, all he's seeing is this, even though he got hit and he had the board, he calls it out, but he sees the guy running and, and Russ was in shape, Russell Sara, he was in shape, man, he took off after him, and we just hadn't had the training to slow down enough to stop in there to, to pan and, and use, use distance and angles, and he ran because he was a hard corner and he ran right past the bad guy and the guy shot him in

the back and when he went down, he walked up and shot him three times directly in the back of the head and they rolled him over and shot him in the mouth and the, and brought daylight, so, but if, we would have had that training and you got to get the reps, you got, and it's sad to say, but most places are, they don't have the budget anyway, but at least

in my experience, when they're having budget problems, the first thing to get's cut is

training, wow, and then something bad happens, and then you look and you go, how did that happen, and then you look and people that are out there in the industry that have the skillsets, they're like, "Well, this is a lack of training." They didn't know what to do, you know? -Oh, yeah, the rep, I mean, you say the rep's man, the muscle memory, just the idea,

you know, it's like, because otherwise I'm sure you're running on adrenaline, and I don't know how much, I don't know, chemically, what is an adrenaline, if there's a part of it, like, of the kids. -You'll be some endorphins, I mean, it's gonna be like, yeah, it's gonna probably be like an eponyphony or something, right?

-Right, yeah. -It's like, hey, relax, yeah, it's not that one, yeah, it's the opposite of relax. -So this is what he made me eat some new address, yeah, it's, so when we're doing those trainings, we call it a stress and occupation, so out there on the range gets you, and or maybe when we're doing force on force with the marking cards, you're in a mask, you're

in a helmet, in clothes, neck protector, and you'll hear people all the time saying, "Man, I couldn't hear anything." When we're doing the tests, say, "Hey, this is how you put the mask on, put it on, you stand up there and you go, "Hey, can you hear this down to my voice and everybody raises their hand? It's not the helmet, it's your stress." -Wow.

-So you do that, and we often refer to it as, you bleed on the range so you don't die in the street, but it takes the reps. There's so many videos I can show you military and law enforcement, where the officer has no idea how many rounds they've shot. They have no idea that they did it in a magazine exchange. They had no idea that they did it behind cover, but they did it because they trained until it became instinctive or like you said,

muscle memory. -Yeah. When things get intense, man, yeah, it's hard to sit back and like, and remember what occurred? -Yeah, like when you're having the adrenaline, and it can be any traumatic

experience. It can be your first car deck. I remember my first car deck, everything that

it goes to slow motion. -Yeah. -You're just like, "Whoa." And everything's a timed isolation. So you're eyes click. You're just getting screenshots because it's not a smooth transition. Your auditory exclusion, you feel like you're underwater, everything's like, "You're just here. Whoa. Whoa." Man, it's just everything's like you can feel your heart beating through your whole body. I will say the studies have shown that the better physical shape

you're in, the quicker you recover from those adrenaline dumps.

“-So adrenaline dump is a, it's a real thing that you guys can ask. -Yeah, that's what I call”

it, but I'm making this probably another turn for it. -No, this is, let me see right here. It says, "An adrenaline dump is a sudden large release of the hormone adrenaline, epinephrine. From your adrenal glands that rapidly flips your body into fight or flight mode, followed by a downshift, once that surge clears and related stress hormones settle. Breathing rate increases and airways relax to pull in more oxygen

quickly. Blood flow is redirected away from digestion toward muscles, heart lungs, and brain.

didn't know that. -And you can come in and out of it. You can be like in a situation

“that you have the adrenaline dump. And then you start, okay, things are common down. Now,”

you're coming back to normal and then something else happens, you're like, "Oh, dad, you're gonna run back down to another adrenaline dump." -So, and in your work, you probably kind of ridden those, like, a lot over the years, public waves, kind of, like a surf and a little bit. -Yeah, but I don't like that kind of surf and pull.

-Has been, I never thought about, like, that that's something, I mean, you always hear the

term, "Oh, you have an adrenaline dump," but I've never really kind of looked at it as to see exactly what's kind of occurring in that in this moment. So you end up moving on, assuming from police work to SWAT, is that kind of how it went? Because I remember, I heard you talk one time about those jump-out boys, right? -Yes. -And I remember reading about jump-out boys, like, even down in Louisiana and stuff.

-Oh, yeah. -Oh, yeah. -Oh, yeah. It was, like, this sort of, like, it was kind of this new thing that was happening. This is what we gathered, is just regular. -Like, in the 5-0 days, where was 5-0? -Oh, everybody's 4-0. -Oh, I thought about it. -Dude, any one on the corner, 5-0, I'm like, I'm not even in a must-ing. -Bright. -You just see a white dodgy knee on. And people will yell, 5-0, or even, you just see a

white guy that hadn't been out in a while. -I know, yeah. -And people will yell, 5-0.

-Oh, I mean, you're trying to earn some money on the corner, but being a lookout. -Those were the day, bro, 4-0, and everybody around didn't even matter. But yet, but the jump-out boys, it was kind of an

“unmarked car group that was kind of taking on drug trafficking. That's what, that's how we always”

heard about it like that. -So, it's not swat. If the sheriff's office, I didn't get on swat. I got on swat in the FBI. -Got it. -But I did make vicing narcotics investigator, and that's your jump-out boys. It's usually your narcotics unit. -It is. -We're rolling out. I mean, being young and dumb, you know, I'd be out late at night, single, party, and I'd come in, and thankfully Gary didn't like beat me up or nothing, but

I remember we've had to drive like 40 minutes to where we're going to do a jump-out. I said, I'm just going to knock off a little bit. By 5 minutes out, if you'll just wake me up, let me know. -I wake up and I'm good. -All right. -Because you're young. I mean, you're, you know, nothing's not popping when you stand up, you know. And you just go like, "All right, man, we're rolling up, and Vandora opens, you start running from a dead sleep." Jason, yeah. -And what? So,

I guess I'm guessing they didn't breath a lot as y'all before your shift. -I wasn't drunk. I was just tired. -I was saying, you know. -The night before I might have been a little snockered, but yeah, you know, I was just, I had the hair of the dog. -Hey, man. What were some of those calls like? -A lot of those. So, the jump-out stuff, you're going to be going to somewhere that's got a lot of reporting or incidents recorded of high drug trafficking. -Yeah. -So, they're going to be pulling up.

And it may be, it may be quick-boss. You may run and undercover in to make a buy. And then, either they are identified or you got it on camera and they're coming. So, you go through and it's like, "All right, the day is wearing a yellow-cut, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then they's pulling

“right to that and jump out and grab them. Because they just sold up if you want to do it that quick.”

Other times it might be for me, once I was in the FBI, I was really source development. I'd go out there with the local estate and locals, and, you know, observe, just getting involved. -Just getting involved. -Yeah, yeah, you have, man. You have it, and sometimes you can get some good information. So, as you're coming up through the police department, what makes you like, is the police department

is the activity they're kind of not enough or is they're like, are you in a search for more? Like, what makes you want to kind of evolve your career to try other genres of law enforcement? -There's a couple of things that happen. Number one, the pay. You're the sheriff's office for five years. You don't get me raises. County Council gives them self-raises. Happens all over the United States. And I disagree with South Carolina.

-What we all get, what we all get? -Oh, man, I don't know. I was a, that would have been 93 to 98. -I was a cop, so I don't know. -50, 60 grandty. I don't see who knows, right? But, you know, that, as a cop, you're also moonlighting. You're doing all kinds of side jobs. You get off a work, and then you go to Frankie's fun park, or some golf thing, and you sit there, or you go to the daughter general, and you sit, you know, for shoplifting and stuff like that,

and you get extra money. -So working like security gigs, side gigs. -Yeah. -Yeah. -We're at for rain, all kind of stuff. -Yeah. -You forget to, I forget that the police officers do all kind of stuff. They would be umpires for our game a lot of time. -Yeah. -They'd be referee and basketball for God about all that. -Oh, yeah, or that's your side maybe. If you're in uniform, you might see the cop at the high school

game. That's a side job. -Got it. -You know, you're getting paid for that. But, um, I looked at the pay, because after five years, it was kind of like, man, I'm not making anything, even though I was a two stripper at that point. But it's like, you look, they would raise the, it was weird, because they would raise the, the hiring rate, the pay for the hiring. So, uh, starting rate. But at some point, I probably could have literally quit walked out the door and came back in with a

for you to agree and make more than what I'm making, which doesn't make any sense. And you also

look at it and you're like, I'm never, I'm never going to max out my retirement. Look, look,

look at how much we're making, how little we get. I'm never going to hit peak unless I'm

but, uh, I looked at that, but I was really starting to get a lot more exposure. Um, as far as I was learning more about the federal agencies, because we would go out and help them with the rest and stuff. And I really didn't know, I thought the FBI just worked to bankruptcy, because that's the only time I ever saw them. Yeah. And I had a sergeant. He said, and my nickname at that time was King van. And he said, King van, if I was you, and I was a single man, how did four year degree?

He said, man, I would put in for the FBI and I'd listen to York as my first office. And I thought, he said, I'd listen to York as my first office. Yeah, I'd put in New York as I want to go to New York and, and, uh, and that, you know, uh, New York. Yeah. And I thought, and I was like, are you, what do you smoke? I'm like, there's no way I'd go to New York. What are you talking about? I started to plan, because I thought I said, all they worked, what do they do? He said,

Scott, they do everything. And God heard that it was harder to get hard.

With the human, I took it as a challenge. I filled out that one first and I never filled out another one.

Took about probably a year to get through the whole process. But, uh, the polygraphs and the physical

“fitness and all the backgrounds and then there's test you have to take and then there's another”

interview test and, and then you get to the academy. You get your letter and I arrived, I arrived in Quantico, Virginia on 9 27 and 98 and 9 28, your first day. Dang. And before we go near first day, when it comes to the FBI, what were some of the, like, the criteria that they were looking for, were there unique tests and stuff that they had you do along the way that, or even experiences that in hindsight may have been used to weed people out that you're able to notice

now. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's all, I mean, the, like the phase one test, because you tickle me, I'll tell you what's going on. Yeah, right, right. I mean, I was very truthful on the polygraph I did, but I sit in the box for like three and a half hours. I'm like, I don't know what you mean, I tell you, I'm not lying, you know, but that phase one test, it has like, there's like questions they ask you, you know, would you be more likely to and they're giving you scenarios and stuff,

but there was this math part. And, and I had to get back and I had good grades in college and stuff.

“I don't remember any of that. I didn't remember any of the geometry and all the other stuff.”

I was like, I don't remember. Yeah, nobody does it. So I got, unless your job has you doing it for some, right? Nope. If you walked up to 95% of people that graduated those classes right now, but they couldn't tell you, yeah. So long, they couldn't tell you. I won't. And, and, because nobody's using it, because what it's, sometimes it's like there's a missing dog or neighbor or something. If somebody shows up with John, I'm going to treat a fine of damn missing dog. I'm pointing at

them, brother. They got that put up. I look at it like this. It helps you find ways to solve problems. This is the way I kind of like that. That's a good attitude. That's, that's, that's, you know, but my, uh, uh, so the middle section was math. Okay. Now, they do look for certain backgrounds. When I was coming in, if you were an accountant, CPA, that's good, uh, attorney, with you past the bar, that's good. Um, former military, intel, foreign language speaking,

and diverse. And I came in under diverse. So four year degree, three years of experience, but I was a former cop. So that helped, if they're looking for that. So they bring in all types. Oh, yes, so completely diverse. Yeah. I mean, you got former doctors, former biochemists, really? Yeah, it's insane. So it's not just police officers. No, no,

not especially not in the FBI. Oh, I never thought of that. I always just feel like it's police,

and then it's, uh, and they're military, yeah, or military, and they evolve and they're working with the FBI. One of my best friends that went through the academy with me, he was a former Walmart manager, and he smoked the fitness test. And he was a great agent. So I mean, it's like, yeah, the all kinds of backgrounds. Actually, I think that's one of the strongest points of the FBI, is they're about diversity. But sometimes we place people in the wrong places, you know,

yeah, I want their in you. Yeah, yeah. I walk at sea, right? Like you got knuckle dragger like me, and you want to stick me on some half a loop. And I don't know, health care for all squad. Yeah.

“It's not me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, but if you want to put somebody into the health care”

fraud squad, that's for me with rolling back prices. Yeah. I can account it or a former medical person or a former Walmart employer. There you go. There you go. There you go. And that's the guy we need. So I'm more of the greater. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, they got him out of here for a reason. You know. Yeah. And sorry, interrupt to you, man. So so so you're going to the phase

one test, right? Yeah. So there's questions. There's there's a there's a there was basically three parts,

but the middle part was all that algebra and geometry and all this stuff. And I mean, I study, I study this study, but as I walk in, I see I've already met some people and they're full blown CPA account that's you've been doing this. When we walked out of that thing, I saw them going, I don't even know what that was. I think I failed. And I'm like, well, if you failed, I know I failed, man. Like this, you're split. This is your world, man. But I just, I just started just circling

stuff when I was running out of time. Sorry. The, the law of averages was on my side that day.

I don't know if it was something to break you like to throw you off mentally, just to stress you out,

because then the third part was back then the questions again. So it's like if you've ever taken the

MMP to for a job, it's MMP to something. It's like 547 questions. And a lot of places have it.

“And even our psychological unit has it. And I think you have to take it once every two years or four”

years. But I mean, it's, it's like so many different ways to ask the same question. But if you are hiding something under the surface, I don't know, maybe when you get stressed somewhere in there, psychologically, it's going to slip out on the back end. Oh, that would make sense. Yeah. Because sometimes a simple word, one word, changing some little change. A little bit of thing, an angle, how high. So you do find your mother sexy. And you do like harm in small animals. And you are

fascinated with fire, because at the beginning of the test, you weren't. And then they walk you out.

Yeah. Yeah. So I have some hobbies. Yeah. But, but no, I love what you're saying, man,

the turn of phrase a little bit, he bit can lead to something so different. And also, sometimes, just waiting when somebody thinks you're going to talk, just waiting. Yeah. And then their energy sometime. Oh, yeah. Let's start to even up. Yeah, I got to fill the space. I guess something. Yeah. Because what does their silence mean? Is their silence mean something? Yeah. And then you start to interpret in your head. What does

their silence mean? And that's kind of a cross. Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't completely truthful. Yeah. But maybe I wasn't completely closed. You know. Yeah, man. Wow. Yeah. This is interesting stuff. Thanks for your time today, man. Thank you for having me. Okay. So you get through, you get through the testing you passed that. Mm-hmm. And then you were in, when new people go to

“Quantico. Is that then? Well, pretty much, I don't know. Because that's what you hear about”

it. Yeah. Yeah. If it depends on, uh, I know you have to pass phase two. Okay. But I can't

remember when the polygraph falls in and when the physical fitness test. But basically, all that,

you're going to get a phase one. You're going to polygraph background, huge background, thorough thorough background. Because you could, you're going to be going into a job where you could get top secret clearance. So yeah. It's like, they know everything. Every credit card you got, any, any debt you've got. He'd give to sit and tell some secrets and stuff about yourself that you didn't want to tell or how it like. No, because I'm transparent. That's just me. I'm now just telling.

I'm out. I'm out. I'm not going to hold it back. I'm not going to lie in really in the FBI. I don't know right now because I didn't work under cash. But, um, I retired under Ray. And I came in under Louis Free. But if you lie under inquiry, then that's recorded, you're kind of dead to is because you can't go testifying anymore. And you can't go build a case because you're going to have to release that you were caught lying. And then the defense is going to eat you apart. So,

“so the truth has to, the truth is the only way to get there. Right. So, I've seen some people do”

some, or have read about in, and quarterly reports, some things that employees have done, whether they're, uh, whether they're gun tutors or whether they're professional staff. But, in mitigation, if they didn't lie, I mean, we're going to try to get you help and stuff. But it, but then you read the next thing and it's like, oh, somebody was called to the table on time and attendance fraud. Like, they were fudging the numbers. Under inquiry, they lied dismissed,

fired. And you're like, if I've learned anything, don't lie. Don't lie. Wow. And it's crazy that you would then end up in a world where you're going under cover. We're like, okay, now I'm lying. Yeah, except for now. Yeah. Now I'm going back to Scott. Yeah. As you guys know, Moon Pay is my go-to place to buy crypto. And now they just launched something new. It's called Moon Pay Agents. It's tech that lets AI actually handle your crypto for you.

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So it's pretty standard tests. It's like the Cooper Institute standard, but basically when I came

in, you had to be able to pass a two mile run in a certain amount of time. You had to be able to do at a sprint course called the shelter run. You start on your back. You sprint like 25 yards turn on the cone back down back down that kind of stuff and then push up, sit up, pull up. But that's just the pass or fail stuff. And then you get in and you basically, I mean,

“Quantico, I look at it like the, I remember that old 80s, maybe the bio dome, with probably”

showered in the background. That's what I look at it like because I have been in that building for four days and, and realize I have not gotten fresh air. I've not stepped outside this building. Yeah. Yes, so you can go from, yes, so you can go from, that's Jefferson right there at the front. That's where I stayed. You can go in and from Jefferson, you go down to the cafeteria. You get your breakfast and then you go to class. You go to lunch, you go back, you can go to your

room, go to the gym, go to the board room at night, hit the bar, go back, and you never step

for the outside. Wow. And that's our track at the back. It looks different now. Or, you know what, no, they did put a building in the middle of it now. There used to be a nice ropes course and all counts of stuff. But a lot of running, a lot more running than I ever did, I was, I was alignment. So, so once you were there, that became a big part of it. It was the physical condition. Yeah. And you're in class all day. You're learning all kinds of stuff. I mean, you're getting

legal. You're doing this. And then we're in Hogan's alley. You're learning tactics. Firearms range. Learning how to be a better shooter. What was one of the more unique classes kind of that you took that kind of stood out? I always loved anything for forensics. Like even though we all know how the OJ Simpson trial turned out and everything. But if you have a forensics person coming and break down exactly what was founded that it just got screwed up. How it was collected and then

the defense did what they were supposed to do. They created out in the jury's mind. But you can some stuff like that. If a forensics person comes in, they break that down and like this is what we found here and it's just getting better and better with like, I forget what it's called. But now they can take you deep. There's something that's matching up your DNA. Let's just say they're clear in like a 30-year-old case. Yeah. Because the DNA is there from that original collection

before we even knew we were going to be able to test this kind of stuff. And then they're going back and they can actually pull things and you know how you kind of like do that like almost like a 23 in me or the genealogy thing they're doing that and they can they're down to like almost that's it. Testing DNA on cold cases is just code as we know. Genetic genealogy. Genetic genealogy there you go. If codeus has no match, labs upload the profile to public databases like GED match.

I'll tell you this how the gate. You do GED match. You're going to find some of my family. I got that family too. Yeah. First generation. First generation for you to

“hear about a lot of empty diploma frames in our area. My dad dropped down to 10th grade. Did he?”

And he said he stopped paying attention in the eighth. Oh, 10's good. Yeah. Oh yeah, GED. It was that was a popular past time in our area. So they just cleared one. I was putting on training

somewhere and somebody was telling me how they just cleared this case. That's amazing. And it was

they did that and they were able to use that family genealogy to narrow it down to oh my goodness. This is one of the suspects that they interviewed and this is one. Wow. So yeah. So 30 years later somebody's getting cast put on on your own. I love that. Yeah. I feel like you could feel the timeline of existence. Breathe a little bit. Yeah. When justice is such. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like a little bit of justice. Wow. So and so how long is the whole overall training for the

prayer for? Yeah. Yeah. It's somewhere around five months. Sometimes it adds another month and but it's somewhere around five months. And what percentage of people do they eliminate sort of along the way are they? You know, well it depends. It's a case by case basis. There was a time where I would go back and I would because I was a founder of the instructor, tactical instructor undercover guy and all that stuff. But I would be back at Quantico with my peers who were in

half of them failed. I'm like what is going on with kind of EBS employees. I don't I don't think half failure is normal. But I'm not there every day so I don't know. Got it. And when you're undercover work start, did that start from the FIA? No, it started at the sheriff's office. So once I made Vice in our colleagues investigator, you have an opportunity to go to undercover techniques or technical surveillance. These are classes that they were put on in Colombia, South Carolina at the Criminal

Justice Academy. And once you get certified in that, then they'd let you go work undercover. But I mean, just just picture me. Number one, I don't want to mess up. Number two, you're around a bunch of older guys and gals who are seasoned in street-level buys and all this stuff. And I'm just trying to, you're going to have to show up. You got, you know, it's not up to them to like me. It's up to me to get them to like me. Got it. You got it. You got any great pictures. And it's

cool. Yeah. And it's the tough crowd. Usually is military law enforcement were pretty pretty tough crowds. So imagine me, number one, not wanting to screw up. Number two, being scared to death. Number three, thinking about them watching it and not wanting to screw up in front of them too. So I'm like Gary Ward and some of those people, you know. But yeah, I mean, the first crack rock I bought, I was probably 275 pounds with low body fat, you know, just jacked and I'm like,

I don't look like I smoked crack. Unless I just started, I just started back, you know, I like my crack rock and drop around for 15 minutes to come back by another one. I'm not the guy smoking it, you know. And so, so something like that, that's a real energy to come back to

“another one. And would you have to seem cracked out when you came back around? Well, what I was told”

because I never smoked crack was that it would wear off in 15 minutes. That's why they didn't care

if you came back and bought again. But they were probably giving me little slivers of super something. But once I did it, the bug got me like the undercover bug. I don't know what it was. It's not lying. It's not like, you know, I used to, like, it's the infiltration. Yeah, I mean, getting to know people. But during the book process, I can remember what I used to terminate as. But I just realized I got a holy crap. I just love connecting with people. Wow,

I don't care. Even if you even if I get called out at three in the morning, because I was considered a good interviewer. So, you know, to either get information to confession or work, you know, flip them and maybe they work with us. And I would go and I didn't mind getting called out like that. And I love the crazier, the better. I mean, rich, poor, big, tall, smart, dumb. I love it all. Did you guys have groups that would like, like, say you go on, like, you're, get put on an assignment.

Is that what it's called, basically? Yeah, front-to-cover. Yeah. And they could be very small.

They could be bigger ones, deeper, deeper, shallow ones. Do you go to like wardrobe and stuff like

“you're like, do they have all of that? Like, who creates your backstory? How does all that happen?”

I say ultimately, ultimately, it's only you. And what I teach you, what I call. What I know, right here, you know, you go, come on. I believe I did just to call the union. I'd go, when are you going to call me for, I was a big country, even though I'm not big anymore, but they they're like, I'd call headquarters and I'd go, when are you going to let me do one of those wall street jobs? You know, they're one of these big old-tapping jobs. And they're like, no. And I'm like,

I can say by sale, you know, put a big hat on and have that boss hug long-horn on the front of my car rolling in the, and they're like, no, and I got fine. Because it's my skill set. My skill set leaves me to backwoods with methods and why it's a premises and whatever else, you know. Oh, yeah, dude. There's just some of my neighbors, probably. What were some of those early spots that you got put into? Well, early on at the sheriff's office, it was the, you know,

yeah, goodbye crackrock, which was terrifying to me. And then it might be, yeah, because I never

bought crack, I'm pulling down there, man, I might barely crack the window, you know, I was just like, like, what you want? Because I come up around the car, you're like, what you want? I'm like, I want a 20, you know. He's like, brought down the window, you idiot. You know, I'm like, I'm I'm sliding money through the, I'm like, let me then. Oh, yeah, yeah, they were, they didn't have never been back with me. And that's been good, though. We should cash out, bro. You know,

I'll send this here right now. Oh, okay. That's pretty good. And then typing was it full of drugs. Yeah, crack. Yeah, but that, that was the odd stuff there. But I started cutting my teeth, but when I got in the FBI, my first long term. I mean, I was doing some cameo stuff, which a cameo is basically what it sounds like, like on a TV show. You're there, just to help somebody else, or it's a quick, it's not even a full blown undercover operation.

It's just going to be one meet. Like, you know, an example of that. Like a dry, like a bi-buster, we're going to deliver LA takes off a huge load of dope. It's supposed to become the New York's.

“LA gets on the phone with FBI in New York. We're like, okay, what does it look like?”

We want measurements all this. We would go build the exact same shipment. And then we would deliver it to where it's supposed to go so we can get the bag guys on that end. No. And that's just the one time.

So in that way, we were able to bust both ends of the, of the, yeah, yeah.

“What is the reason that they would do it like that as opposed to just showing up at the actual meet?”

Because sometimes you don't know if it's getting delivered to a fictitious address, or where's it going to go? But we were delivering it. And it depends on the assistant United States attorney. Because everybody's a little different. So maybe this one says, this is all I need to charge them. Somebody might be a little bit more thorough. They go, no, I want to actually know that they open the box. Well, how can we do that? Well,

it's build something so weak when we walk away. It's not enough that they take position. We want to walk away and know that they popped the box before we hit it. And how would you guys know that when you guys put cameras in the box? I've something, I've some tech guys going to do something. I mean, there's so much technology now. I mean, I don't know what they can do. Yeah. But of course, my people watch TV and

think we can do stuff. We can't anyway. Yeah. That's true. Well, I don't know that this getting better. I saw, I've seen some things since I retired. I'm not going to say what they are because it's a straight graph, but it really made me want to go back under cover just to use it for recording device. I was like, I cannot believe. I'm like, you know, well, they just had those

“SUVs that they bought. I think they had its really technology. And I'm, if you saw that, there was these SUVs”

that allegedly can drive by an area and and read your phone. Basically, can you bring it up, Kevin? Uh, it's probably like, if you're on Bluetooth or Wi-Fi and it's this pulling stuff off

your phones. Israel's Palantir Rival is selling one million dollar spy vans to US cops.

Is this a recent story? Because this was like three days ago. Oh, yeah. This is good. There we go. Let me see. Cognite, which sells technology to snoop on phone locations largely in Israel and Europe is making inroads in America by tricking out trucks with spy tech. Texas State police is purchase of four brand new Chevy Tahu's. This march was unusual. Not just because of the staggering 4.5 million dollar price tag, but because the vehicles were kidded out with technology that could

monitor the locations of nearby cell phones. Maybe I was really surveillance company Cognite, the tech simulates a mobile phone tower, which forces nearby phones to connect to it that enables cops to keep tabs on any phones in the vicinity, whether they're owned by a suspect in a case or not. Do you gonna have some issues there? Yeah, I'm reading. I'm listening to what you're reading. But I'm telling you, you've got the Fourth Amendment protection. So if I'm going to be able to track

you at a minimum, I'm probably going to have to get a corridor. A lot of places, a lot of times now,

“you have to get a full-blown search warrant. Do you think, though, that maybe they're buying these”

in advance and they know that the laws are going to change? That could be, but I can tell you right now, if somebody's coming by and pulling your stuff, and they're actually tracking you. I mean, say if you've got a scanner and you're riding through a apartment complex back in the day, you could pick up different cell phones and stuff. Is that a title 3 wiretap? I mean, if you're using it for evidence, it is, but for us, that's a huge invasion of privacy. I mean,

able to listen to your phone. I'll pin registered traffic and trace. That's just going to let me track your phone and maybe see where you are off the towers. I'll get to see phone numbers coming in and calling in and calling out and texting and texting out, but I can't read. Got it. Well, I can't read the content. Got it. You start getting into that kind of stuff. Like if somebody puts a camera in your house, that's a title 3. And it's not easy to get. It's not TV. It's not like,

hey, I need to be on this phone in five minutes. It's different. We're getting now. You can track a phone in an emergency or there are some, it's, maybe it's harder, especially if you got a burner phone. But there are things like if somebody's missing or it's a threat to life, or maybe a cop goes down and we're trying or somebody's there. Yeah, and we're trying to do that. That's, we're not able to expedite it a little bit, but you're still gonna get some type of order. Got it. And now,

sometimes it seems like that police or FBI, they may use these tactics for the moment, knowing that they're not just to, to be whoved them to advance and whatever that moment is to have strategy, knowing that it may not hold up in court later. Well, I wouldn't do that. Really, I, for me, which is, it makes sense when I'm saying, I know it does. It does, but we're, like,

it's always done it. I do it now. Ask, ask permission later. Like, that's the end for forgiveness.

Right. It seems like, I could see that being a part of maybe this strategy. I don't know. Well, that would be the only spot kind of thing, but generally, or for, let's just say for the most part, I would not, I'm retired. I'm not bonded right now. But I wouldn't build a bad case or do something like that because that's a violation. But if there was a gray area, if, if this is just me, personally speaking, I'm not saying this covered, it's not covered by policy. But there have been

horrific cases where, girl, young girl goes missing. I'm kicking myself for not remembering

and you start canvas in the neighborhood. Well, you might look and you can see, hey, man, we've got, like, registered sex offenders right here, where she went missing. But that's the first door's I'm not going to. Sorry, if I'd offend you, but you're registered sex offender. Yeah. And as you trade, yeah. And they, after the fact, they found her, she was dead, she was buried alive with her, with her stuffed animal. But in the original canvas, they went and talked to the guy

at the trailer that was held in her. But they never got in. So me, that I would, I would vow, like,

I'm getting in there. If you feel it. Yeah, I'm getting in. I've been, if you don't have a problem, you're not holding it. You might have all walking here and live. And if you say no, well, okay, well, we'll find a way to get in here. Right. But I'm not leaving. Yeah.

“You know what I mean? Have you had instances like that where you had a trust your instincts?”

Oh, yeah. Yeah. As a case agent. Well, even as an undercover, but as an undercover, you're in a situation and you're basically playing chess. You're trying to be five steps ahead of them and they're thinking, you're also like tennis. Like, I'm serving it to you and I have no idea which way you're hitting it back, but I'm maybe here going, you know, I'm that golly. I don't know what you're throwing,

but I'm trying to be ready. As a case agent out there trying to call a shut call, call shots right

there on the spot. You know, my out of case in McCallan, Texas where I was at for six and a half years. And what it was is that the, the, they run documented aliens being smuggled in. We get the call because the undocumented family is already in Virginia. They had paid for two sisters and a daughter to come through. And what happened is the smuggling organization got them across the river. So you get them across the river, at least in Rio Grande Valley, you get them across the river

“and then they're easily at a staging location, a house or something because now they've got to”

get picked up by a coyote, a walker and they're going to be handed off and now they're going to be walk through the brush around the checkpoints to where they'll be picked up and then carry to wherever. Where this one happened was one of the sisters was physically and mentally challenged and they left her in the brush to dry. To die, they left her in the brush to die and board a patrol founder. She was 16 but they couldn't figure out a lot so they called child-up protective services. They

came over and were able to figure out, you got family. They actually figured out the, the other family was in Virginia and they were now being extorted. They got them across the river, got them into a house and now they're calling, saying, hey, we already dumped one of your sisters, your five-year-old daughter's sick and we're not getting anything to make her better unless you pay as a more money. So they're extorting them even though they pay. And in my mind, I think that's truly a victim.

Even though undocumented alien is, it's an illegal charge but I'm not working undocumented alien. I'm working kidnapping extortion. Well, yes, especially if, I mean, I think there's a moral code

“inside of a lot of us where you have to decide what's going on. And sometimes you can't even decide.”

It's just a built-in thing. You're like, this is how I'm an operate in the space, right? It's a very human thing. Yeah. So in that case, particularly, we're probably running for three, four days nonstop because we're trying to find this phone that they're calling on, that the bad guys are using the call, the family. I've already hit FBI up in Virginia and say, hey, can you go ever and give them recording devices all that, all the stuff they need?

And it was a Honduran family. And about that third day, we're out and all we know is that the phone, like I said, just locations stuff. It's not, I'm not giving away. Right, you're not going to get text messages. You just get some location tags. But it's not like,

it's always, it's not always pinpoint. You know, it's not like, hey, that's it moving right there.

10 feet away. That's right. Not at least when I was working at then. And we know pretty much that the phone is somewhere in the store. And they're like, hey, it's moving. And then at the same time, four different people come out. And they're all walking into cars. And we've been up for three days straight. And we're all most of us are parents, which doesn't matter if you're parent or not, you're still going to be like, but you're, you're getting personally involved in this case,

because it's a five-year-old girl. And I had to make the call. And like, what do you because I was leaving it? And they're like, which one? And I'm like, look, I'm going to son of a, I'm going, okay, I'm like, I'm like, come on, Lord. And I'm like, hit me. And then I'm like, let's go with that one. And we follow it away and get to a point to where that one stops. And then we were able to say, yep, the phone may have been at somewhere close to there. So then we're going to hit the house. What the house didn't have the undocumented people in it. It had, it had the guy had the ledgers had all the names.

Of course, the phone was in there. They were trying to flood, they were trying to flush stuff and everything. We get in there and got the phones on and I call the bad guy phone and it rings. And I got, it's cheap. So we do it a long interrogation. And luckily the guy broke and took us to the stash house.

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What's those interrogations like?

Are they getting pretty intense sometimes? I can. Yeah, that one did. Because I mean, you know, it's like. But again, what do you think about it?

Say you're, I'm like, I've interviewed not this, not that case, but you're interviewing somebody. There's nicknames at lunch once because the cartels are to cut to his fingers all. They've been tortured, they've been all that me yelling at him.

“How am I going to work this to where I can get something?”

How do you? I can't chop your fingers off. Right. We have a constitution. Yeah.

That would be frowned upon. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

You've hoped to play by the rules. Yeah. Did you see some pretty severe stuff that came across the board? Like, how intense is some of those scenarios and stuff down there? Like, you hear so much about the cartels and like the level of violence that's like,

almost something that we can't even maybe fathom sometimes. Well, a lot of people don't. They value life a little differently. I'm not saying Hispanics because somebody's going to say, "Oh, you're saying all Hispanics.

I'm not. I love. I mean, I got tons of Latino friends. But the cartel at the time, I was down there. OZL cartel was running it, which once the apartment adjusts, it took him off.

It actually created a vacuum. Because now everybody's like, "Well, he's going to run the golf cartel." And then you got the enforcers, the safest that are saying, "You know what? We're the ones that kidnap everybody. And towards where I'm, we're going to run it."

And then you got maybe the government saying they're going to do it. And then send you a little of cartel comes in. It says we're taking over. And then you descend up with a bunch of heads and bags and vans. Really?

Yeah. Is that a real thing heads and bags and vans? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you like, it was getting bad enough to where this was shortly after I left.

But it was getting bad enough to where, because everybody's fine for the territory. If you're in a territory and you have a decent vehicle, like, it looks like you've got some kind of money, because there's really not a lot of middle class.

You're either low or high. And you're going through the wrong territory,

And maybe it's the safest going. Well, you're not one of us.

“Are you one of the senior little cartel,”

and they pull it over? I mean, yeah, and there's been innocent bystanders lost. You know, because they didn't know any better. You know? I mean, almost invested in a damn zoo down there in cinema.

Yeah. Body of mind. We almost bought into a zoo down there.

Well, I mean, I've never been to senior little.

So there's probably like a lot of places that are outside the United States. There's going to be, well, it's just like an United States. It's going to be good and bad. Yeah. Oh, yeah, my friend Andrew just went fishing down there.

And he said he had one of the best experiences of his whole life. Some of the greatest fishing he's ever done. Yeah. What's what's smuggling did you see? Did you see any human trafficking?

Well, we hear about that term so much. What did you see? So when I got there, I was working drugs. Obviously you're on the border, but you got ever federal agency there. Legacy ice, the ATF us FBI.

DTF if there's some oddies. Yeah. Yeah. I saw all kinds of stuff. When I got down there, I was working drugs at first.

Um, I mean, it could be 50 kilos of cocaine in a tire. I can see that much. Yeah. It's a most you ever saw, man. Uh, I personally probably get into that 100 kilo mark.

How much is that? Show me what your hands. Well, a kilo was 2.2 pounds. So a hundred of those. Wow.

Really? I saw two eight balls once. Well, I know way bigger than that. Indestant. It was indestant.

Yeah. Two eight balls. I used about five at a time on the cover. Yeah, I was down. Yeah. But you get deeper and you get into the more serious.

Now you're getting up to like ounces. You're getting up to kilo bars. And so you'd see real that much cocaine. You saw real. Yeah.

Real cocaine. Yeah. Yeah. But that was hard. Was it hard not to smile when you saw it?

No. You smile after the take down. And then you get the photo. You go up there and do your trophy shot. You know, but.

But that's nothing. Just picture if you were working in Miami. And then like I'm saying where I worked. Man, a hundred kilos. Or you could, but you go down the border.

Well, man, you can trip over 500 pounds. Just riding up and down the river. Yeah. Because it's so porous and stuff. But the biggest weed seizure I got was 5,000 pounds.

Wow. We literally filled up two truck. I mean, my truck was loaded. I was sitting in the seat like this. Just, but I can't even.

It was just packed when we loaded another truck. That's a lot.

“Did you even get a buzz drive when we could you smell it?”

It's strong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, dude, one time he my friend Billy Conforto, RIP.

And he was one of the, he was one of the first gay, male prize fighters in America.

But he, um, we got taken out of a car with some weed on some pounds of weed. The cops pulled us over like shit. So he put it in our front like in our pants. Yeah. And the cops like I'm going to sit y'all in the, in the cruise.

Well, I searched the vehicle. So he sat us in there and we just had it. Was it rigging like huh? Did you smell it? I don't know why he's thought that.

But it was like, well, he just put us in there. We had it in our, so now we're sitting with it in the cruiser. He searched the car and then he said, okay, nothing to see there. Put you guys back in it. You guys take it easy.

There you go. So I don't know what made him think it. Maybe he did smell it originally. But anyway. But anyway.

We got lucky that day. Yeah. We didn't do too much. You know, we weren't doing anything real heavy over there. And I think back then, if you were gay, you had to be hot even just get through it.

It was just a different time. Yeah. But I'm anyway. Were we talking about? So I've seen a lot of the dope stuff.

But just picture. If you're in Miami, like I just told you 100 kilos and you think that's a lot. Well, what if you bust up in the hole of a ship and you've got 2,000 kilos? I mean, did you see that stuff?

And I'm like, I've never seen 2,000.

But I've seen, I've seen some big stacks. Does he get competitive to be on a big bus? Yeah. Sure. Friendly competition.

I call it friendly. You know, Dave versus FBI. We always bust chops. Yeah. And you're working cases together.

But then I switched to Alien Smuggler. Because at that point in time and in McAllen. Well, I guess in the Bureau, it was becoming a serious topic to look at special interest Alien Smuggler. And it's not just, you're not saying, hey, I'm looking for the normal human trafficking.

We are looking for people being smuggled in from threat countries. So like your threat countries, Russia, China. And why would they be being smuggled in? Like, what is?

“Well, that's what we're trying to figure out.”

Got it, see? Well, they up to bat, are they up? Are they coming in here with nefarious plans? Or are they legitimately trying to get out of where they're at? Is it a better life?

Got it. It's interesting to me that that would be kind of an assignment for you guys, right? Or like, that would come down as part of the detail. Yeah. But then at the same time, you would have the government that would, like,

Lack of days, it would seem allow people to come into the country.

Yeah, I don't like it. Did it ever feel to you, like, like, the government was starting some of the problems

“that the, that you guys were then being hired to go and solve?”

Well, ATF's Fast and Furious, that would be a yes. I mean, you know, there's plenty of documentaries out there and some good books. Oh, I'm ready for that. Fast and Furious, that's one of the movie. No, no, no, no, no.

That was their operation Fast and Furious where they were, it was, it was a ledge that they were allowing guns to go to the cartel. And then those guns would show back up. Yeah, those guns would show back up. And one of those guns killed the board of a television.

Wow. But you're smuggled. So look at it like this. And I'm not trying to bash anybody.

I mean, I always have a team like everybody, everybody's got every agency has their black eyes.

But just look at this way. If I released a key little cocaine into the streets and it came from me and FBI agent, anybody gets sick, hurt, killed over that. That's, that's my fault. That's a lot of ability. So I'm looking at the same way with fully automatic weapons and stuff.

Yeah. I just know that I know as a case agent working what I've worked, how hard it is to get approvals for anything close to that. So it's a little dumbfounded. And how how that worked out.

How the heck that happened, you know? Just sort of listeners know about it. Operation Fast and Furious, a controversial 2009 and 2011 Bureau of Alcohol, Bureau of Alcohol to back up firearms and explosives, sting operation used a gun-walking tactic letting elicit firearms pass to Mexican cartels

to track high level leaders, which failed when track weapons were lost and used in violent crimes. Wow. So they let them through to be able to kind of, maybe I guess they would tag them or find some way to trade, follow them. And so they could know who these people were that were getting in the high levels.

But then those were used to kill our own people. Yeah. Led by the Phoenix Arizona Field Office under Project Gunrunner, allowed straw buyers to illegally purchase thousands of weapons with the intent to trace them new major cartel leaders.

Agents were ordered not to interdict or seize weapons during purchases, losing track of roughly 2,000 farms. They were exposed after the Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was killed in 2010 by rifles tied to the operation. Resulted an attorney general Eric Holder being held in contempt of Congress in 2012 for withholding documents through Department of Justice Report.

Clear to, though, a Department of Justice Report, clear to, of direct knowledge of the tactic.

“So was this, this was happening while you were working?”

Yeah. And did that scare? I'm not going to get a lot of hate from ATAF. I'm sorry about that. I love ATAF.

I got a lot of friends of ATAF. Well, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of things. And he doesn't mean that their bosses or the people above them might not be having some separate interests. That's right.

And the FBI, we're an easy target too. Think of, like, a name for any of the things that they-- Oh, the organization done too. Yeah. I'm just thinking all the top of my head.

And you know, you got to be careful because, like, let me use an example. Like, I'm a vise and narcotics investigator. So in Greenville, South Carolina at the time I was there, it was illegal to gamble. Okay. So maybe we identify three major gambling operations.

Maybe we pop one of the ones or go and interview them and flip them. But the head of that one has now given us information on the other two and we're working the other two. But you don't want to hold your situation where you're letting this,

your solace go and wreak havoc for free while it's always a,

you know, maintenance, it's a balance. Yeah.

“And that's why when we do stuff like that, if you're providing information,”

we let you know what you can and can't do. And I've told many, many, sources that I've had for that 20 years of career. I'll be like, look, if you do this, I cannot take up for you at all. But if you call me before it happens, I can take up, you know, I mean, it's kind of a thing.

Understood. Wow. Yeah. So when dealing with informants, this has got to be pretty fascinating. So you dealt with a lot of informants.

For me, operating an informant for me is a lot like undercover. And they, they match because when I'm an undercover, I'm essentially being a source for another FBI agent. It's just that I'm not a criminal. I don't have a failing on my record. I'm actually a bonded law enforcement officer.

But I'm still going in and getting the information. I'm still getting the recorded stuff. I'm still that person. So for me, when I'm dealing with sources, like you're doing what I do, one of the cases,

but I'm asking you to do it for me. First of all, what people in towns and regular towns in America are actually not being, like, informants or narks or whatever, because dude, when I was in school,

you always hear, like, Ricky's a, no, I don't know whatever.

You don't snark. Yeah, dude, Ricky. Bro, Ricky, it would be like one kid, like, wore the wrong PE outfit and like, that guy's a fucking nargue.

Like, nargue was the biggest thing, bro, and people. And sometimes you'd even find somebody's niche. Yeah, since you got a little card from, like, the local police department,

Like, every now and then they had, like, this, like, I don't even think it was laminated, bro. That bitch got wet and it didn't exist. But what types of people, like, in towns,

“are actually, are the first types of people you would get as informants for, for certain things?”

Or is that not even a real thing? Like, or, like, get a high school, I'm just trying to think, I'm like, like, I would say it depends on what violation you're working. Okay. If I'm working gangs, and I'm working the Transnational Organized Crown,

which is what I work for a long time. Well, then maybe I'm going to try to find and develop a source that can give me information on this, like, this cart, this, whatever. This, this group has been bringing in drugs that we've heard about. Or what if it's multiple robberies?

We're trying to find somebody that knows something about, have you heard me scatter? I mean, any skeletal blood? Maybe you, maybe you talked to ladies of the night. Some prostitutes, escorts, and say, hey, if, you know, you know, things like that.

But you can also be a highfalutin case. I'm saying highfalutin because I look at me. I'm not a highfalutin. But it could be, like, an espionage case. It could be, like, a white collar case, and maybe,

maybe the sources for those are very upstanding members of society. And you can go talk to them and say, hey, I was wondering if you could give me some information. They be like, I would love to give you some information. Me, I'm talking when I say developing sources when I was working.

I'm like, I'm talking about going to somebody that you may never would hang out with,

that you may think as a piece of trash or not. But those people have never, like, law enforcement. And I'm talking to that person. And after our conversation, I've heard things. You hear things like, man, for a cop, you know, for a cop, you're not that bad.

Oh, I didn't know there were cops like you. So you just, it's, it's only you. But yeah, I mean, that's the way I would do it. And I do think it goes hand in hand. But if you don't know, in my opinion,

if you don't know how to develop and operate sources, I don't think you're probably going to be an awesome undercover. Hmm.

“Do you ever have to pick, like, disguises or was there, like, a war?”

Like, yeah, did somebody help, like, fit you for a scene? Did they give you a photo or, like, a look book? Like, hey, here's what you can wear and not wear? Were there, like, was there ever a thing where you couldn't wear a certain patch? Like, if it was, like, a certain gang of affiliation.

Of course. Like, how did you manage that? Take me in a little bit of that. It's really comes down to the intelligence of the case team that's bringing you in. Hopefully, they've done their due diligence.

And as an undercover, you can ask those questions. Now, is there a wardrobe department? No, but do we have things in the undercover program? Or maybe you could get some jewelry and stuff like that? Yeah, we got that.

But as far as, like, wearing the wrong patch or not,

that's going to be, again, ultimately it's on me as the undercover.

Like, if I want to know, if I want to, like, if I asked for a weapon that doesn't come back to law enforcement, well, I shouldn't just take their word for it. I probably need to run that number in NCIC to make sure it doesn't come back to FBI quantity because I've been on cases that that happened. Like, what does that mean?

“Like, it means, like, so you got serial numbers on your weapons.”

If they check that in NCIC, it's going to come back to something. Right. Well, sometimes bad people have contacts that can run that kind of stuff, whether it's through corruption or whatever. Oh, I see. So if your weapon has your number on it, and they see that. And they run it, and it says, Oh, this is a clock 22.

If FBI, I want to go. Right. And that's how it was undercover. And I'd request that a fully covert weapon, whatever. It's supposed to work in with ATF and everything.

And I was probably six months in to the undercover. And somehow, I was on the call with Quonico and asking how we get the weapon. It's the drone out, but basically the guy's like, Oh, at that point in time. Because we really don't have any cover. And I was, I looked that's the good run this weapon right now through the training.

And they ran it and said, FBI, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, bro. I mean, I could have just carried my normal weapon. Yeah. That goes back to Quonico too, but it really is on you. But for me, I'll tell you what I have done.

If I go in and I meet a source, I'll ask them. Like, sometimes my beard's this long and long hair, which is getting less and less now. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be thinning out here even more soon. But, um, tell me, man. But you go, the thing is they'll go, uh, I'll ask them.

Hey, I was only in the cover. Meet the person we talk for hours. I'll come back and meet them again because I'm trying to figure out, hey, or my other eye fit that they, that it's just going to work. Because we're going to be basically under cover thing.

Yeah. And it's, we're basically going to be under cover together. And I'll say, does this work? And they would look and go, nah, man, that's too dirty. We're red next.

But we're clean cut red next. And I said, well, what do you do? I said, how about like a nice go to you? Because I get it normal hair cut. They're like, yeah, it'd be perfect.

Man, button up shirt. I'm in tuck. I'm like, oh, now I'm just doing that. So I don't look like a, like, way out of place. I'm going to look, I'm mirroring them.

Got it.

But for me, I always stuck really close to who I was.

I was always Scott, different last name.

I'm may or may not be a musician and a singer.

May or may not be married with kids or for you to agree. But you can bet most likely I ride motorcycles and I lift weights. Got it. And then you just kind of go from there. Because my jokes are literally the same.

I'm just twisting them because I'm, it's real to me. Yeah. I tell the tree story.

“Have you ever been in an, in an instance where you weren't even the best choice for the role, but you ended up in it?”

Yeah, absolutely. We call, I mean, you can word it a right case wrong under cover, right under cover home case. But I had a buddy of mine and he was running, he's an under cover as well. But he was the case agent and he was running this under cover on like a dirty doctor, selling pills or giving pills for sex stuff like that.

The idea was because of my background to come in and be the closer. And be the closer to get this doctor on drug trafficking, right? Got it. And I came in and I basically said, I'm a competitive power lifter, but I'm getting older. Bills are getting tight.

I don't need something for the pain kind of thing. I was trying to do that because they had already had a bunch of reporting of like this, this doctor like, you know, a woman goes in for a visit. She prescribes her a bunch of pills or whatever. She leaves and there's a used condom in the trash can.

Got it. And then maybe somebody reports say this doctor tried to do this to him or something like that. So now I'm coming in as a new patient. And I knew a lot of the pill meal stuff because I was working it as a case agent as well. But yeah, I was just the wrong guy.

Like I did the first meet and then the second time I came back, he started telling me, well, you know, Scott, sometimes people come in here and they get to use and they go sell them on the street.

And I was like, I never said I was going to do that.

I said, I'm in pain, man. He's like, what? And I left the meeting that day. And I went to hand over the recording of the case agent. He was my friend. And I told him, I said, I'm not the right guy.

And you don't need me to send me back in there. I don't know what it is, but he does not like me. And he just went there. Can you feel when something doesn't fit? Yeah.

Yeah. Because if you, yeah. Yeah, you can feel it, especially if you're trying to force it. You know, and I tried a little bit that day with that guy. But he was not something about me.

I don't know whether he thought I was a snitch or a fed or something or something, but he didn't feel he could control me.

But I was not the right guy for the job.

What are some things, isn't it? Undercovered it's like general rule of thumb that you don't want to do. It's like, do you not want to talk much?

“Like is there like, you know, I guess, is it case by case basis, I guess?”

Yeah. I mean, it depends on me. There's actually a turning general guidelines on what we can and can do. Like we can't be involved in an active violence and let's yourself defense. Um, you can't like instigate the crime, you know, because I'd be in trap, you know.

Instigate run the crime and then all of a sudden, "No, no, no, you're under arrest, you know?" Have there ever been romantic things that happened along the way where it's like, "Oh, there's almost temptation for that." Like, or you met somebody, you know, like, "Well, shit, I'm spending half my days in this environment, you know?" Uh, I've been in situations where, yeah.

But that's, you don't do that, you don't do that. I've seen other things where, you know, maybe people fall in love. It's just think about it like this. We've got my luck and I'm doing a deep undercover and I'm at this bar and you start hitting on me and I actually have a single man and, and we end up hooking up and dating.

My luck, that's going to end up being the target sister or something. You're on the main part. Is that front of you? Can you legally do that though? It'd be a policy violation.

I can't get it. It'd be a policy violation. Now, maybe in like, if you go super high spot, I don't know. You know, I don't know all the CIA's rules. I don't know, in my five and in my sixies rules, but yeah, that would be,

it would just be a bad foundation period. Even if that person ended up not being, um, I'd rather you, I'd rather you bring in your real wife who isn't also an undercover FBI agent. Yeah. Then you'll just be you, you know, if you got that.

“Do you think that most of us interact with undercover officers or agents within our lives?”

Is that even realizing it? I wouldn't say that because literally, like in the Biker world, they call it like you got the 1% or Biker clubs. They say that if you're an undercover, um, in law enforcement, you're a 1% because there's like 1% of law enforcement that does undercover work.

I see. So you don't think most of us have interacted with an undercover agent without realizing it. You might have, based on some of your history, thumbs up. Oh, yeah. You know, I'm being dependent on where I'm at.

I might have, but, you know, I suppose we have met. I know, right, but if I was at the, uh, if I was at the Oak Ridge Laboratory, and I'm probably not running into an undercover. I don't think, yeah, I don't know. Maybe you can be, if you're trying to sell, you know,

uh, uh, classified material, then yeah. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't. I don't think we're in like that. Yeah, I don't. But it's not that common that most of us just regular people have interacted with the,

You don't think so. I don't think so. Got it.

But I don't think paranoia either.

“There are some people like, what if everybody in this room is an intelligence officer?”

I'm like, what if they are? Right. They're trying to get information. I'm trying to get information. But I'm here to drink.

Yeah. You know, pay for this state. Um, yeah. What is a one percent or you hear about that term a lot? And that's a gang.

Uh, you're gang. Motorcycle clubs. If you're considered a one percent or motorcycle club, let's see after a Vietnam war. Um, and everybody should, well, I don't know about these days.

Who knows if they know about Vietnam war, but you, they would come in. Uh, soldiers were coming back and they weren't treated very well. And there was no kind of a transition thing, you know, or decompression. Um, and a lot of the motorcycle clubs. Um, I mean, they started back in World War II and stuff like that.

But a lot of these motorcycle clubs, uh, were forming. And they were doing some, you know, rowdy stuff. So the president of the American Motor, American Motorcycle Association. I think something was called. It comes out and does this media bliss to say, hey,

99% of all motorcycle riders are good law-abiding citizens. So they took that as a badge honor and said, we're then with a one percent. Um, we're one percentors. And as a patch on there. On there.

Yeah. So if you're, like you see one percentor, you're going to see the big ones. Hell's angels outlaws, Mongols, they like to be the out. They like to be the out. They like to be the, well, we're not the one.

We're the, we're the non law body doing our own thing. Yeah. I like that. So my say and it's to be out. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the patch right there. Yeah.

Everybody always asks it.

You know, they're like, well, or you say it all. One percentor-biker clubs are criminals. Like I know. But it kind of goes with being a one percentor. You know what I mean?

If you're not. Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that means you got to break the law, but you're definitely not. It's just saying you got to edge. Yeah.

I don't care about the law basically. Yeah. You like a, or you like to, you got some of your own laws. Yeah. Yeah.

That's what the one percentor. Yeah. This is, it's all interesting, because some of these terms I've heard before. And it's nice to just kind of get to like hear them in the use of the world that they're from. Yes.

“Take me into your experience with the outlaws, right?”

That's a biker gang you were involved with where you went undercover. Yes. That was the longest one to two years. Okay. Like, if I look back in my career, I could be like, yeah, there was a year and a half case.

That was a year and a half case. You'd go with the case, takes you a lot of times. Or the case ends because something happened there. Like, we're not doing this like something like somebody got heard or something. But for the outlaws, I was already a certified undercover.

I'd already done, I'd already done several under covers in the bureau. But I had all the state and local experience too. And I was already roleplaying and helping at the undercover school that we have. And this is how Carolina? No, no, no, no.

By the time I was doing that, I was living in McAllentex. Okay, got it. Yeah.

So when I got hired out of South Carolina, for the FBI, when I came out of Coanica, my first office in New York City,

which goes back to the sergeant, which is funny, because I did not pick it as number one. It was like 36 out of 56. So when I went back from my, pick up my clothes and have the afternoon, have the going away party for Scott, I went up to the United States. Did you jinx me, man?

I'm like, I knew York City. What is wrong? But I was actually assigned to New York when none of them had happened. But the day of I was undercover. I was in Texas.

But so now I moved down to Texas. I'm in McAllentex. I'm a case agent. So I'm still doing that stuff. Firearms.

Okay. So you down in McAllentex? Yeah. And then as a certified undercover, I can't remember if they Canvas through an email or did I get a phone call from somebody.

Because once you start going back and role playing and teaching at the undercover school,

“I mean, the best way to describe it is, let's just say, "Oh, scared me, man."”

I thought something bit me my phone vibrated. So I get a call because you starting to get known. If you're role playing at the school. And when you're even at the school, so there's an undercover school to get certified. Just like, just like a becoming FBI agent, I mean, it's not five months.

So there's an undercover school. Yeah. On Academy. Two weeks. Yeah.

And you learned how to be undercover. Well, you got to pass. Okay. It's not so much that you're learning this, just that you're learning techniques and stuff. But Jed, you got to pass.

And what are some of the techniques you learned there? Sorry that I didn't grasp onto this before. Like, is it almost acting teachers that are there teaching? No. No.

So, won't give away everything for the school. But I'll give away was kind of out there. The FBI undercover school is considered one of the toughest certifications schools. The FBI put its own. Some say it is the toughest.

I'll say HRT is the toughest because HRT is tier one, SWAT on steroids. Is two weeks as well for the trial. How does it mean HRT? Hostage rescue team. Okay.

So you can be SWAT in all your divisions. Like, I was SWAT and McCall and San Antonio division. I was SWAT in Knoxville.

Based on a Quantico. Hell yeah. Hostage rescue team. And I mean they're hot too. They train with a tier one teams.

It's hot speed. My hot speed. You know, helicopter's all that stuff. But that one is also a two week trial. Very physical and mental.

A lot of times, at least from what I'm understanding. HRT is. Yeah. HRT is like, you just want to get through the two weeks without getting injured. And you went through it?

No. No. I was going to. If I went in the gut on New York City. I was going to die down to probably around 250 pounds.

And then because there's a lot of running. And I was going to go try out. Does that mean I would have made it. And a lot of people don't ever. I don't know.

I haven't known anybody that made it their first time.

But wow. But the undercover school is two weeks. Yeah. What is some of the course? What do you get?

So you're going to. The just is this. Big on sleep deprivation. No days off. That sleep deprivation brings out weaknesses.

Right. So you're going to be getting training during the day. I'm not teach a block on the outlaws. I'm going to teach a block on why it's a pregnancy cases that I've worked. It may be somebody else's teaching.

Maybe it's the legal person. Whatever you're going to get training during the day. And at night, generally, the way it was running when I was in it. At night, you're going to be doing role playing scenarios. You're probably going to get to an eye.

And everybody goes through every scenario. That way, there's no liability. In other words, you can't say, hey, that person's background is drugs. And you only gave them undercover drugs scenarios. You know?

“What's like an example scenario you would probably go through?”

They probably wouldn't want me to say that's fair. Because it'll give it away. That's fair. But we just say this, you're getting tested. You may die.

You may die miserably in a scenario. And then you've got to turn around and go, all right. Buck up a little camper. We're still got one more for the night. You know?

Well, if you go over to in one night, bro. Yeah. And then I will tell you this. I got certified in those two 2002. I started role playing in 2003.

And I probably only missed a handful of schools in my 23 years.

That'd be an eye never knew or heard of a 100% graduation rate.

It doesn't mean that it's hazing and none of that stuff. It just means that it's a great certification school. And not everybody's cut out for undercover. Understood. What do you think is the number one thing that blows like an officer's cover?

Uh, I'd blow in the cover. Oh, man. Uh, there could be, I mean, bad, bad. Backstop and bad, having a bad legend. You slipping up and not knowing your stuff.

I think it's story or whatever. Yeah, you need to know it. And picture, picture if you're undercover for two years. I'll meet you on day one. Whatever I say right now.

I need to remember two years from now.

“So that's why I stuck close to who I was.”

Bro. And as I got, oh, now, in early in the game. Oh, man. I was making, like, I'd be undercover. And I'd be signing my name Scott Payne.

And I undercover. I'd be the pee would form and I could do. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm Callaway. And I do. But then I'd be home.

I Scott Payne. And I would sign Scott Callaway. And you're like that guy. But lucky for me, I ended up getting better at it. And by the time I was, when I retired, I think I had like eight phones.

I had like one FBI, one personal, everything else was undercover. And I just, I just get so, I got so good. Because I'd be like, I don't think good. Because it says like I'm chest beating. But it just, it was easier for me to do.

And the color, and I go, okay, that's that case. What's up, brother? How's it going, blah, blah. You know, that's that case, yeah. Dang, man.

Yeah. So at one time, you were actively involved in how many cases. Oh, man. So, they're, again, I'll say to you. They're a man and women out there have done way more than me.

For sure. But I will say that for my 23 years in the FBI, if you were a full-time undercover, like, you're not doing anything else when undercover. That was pretty rare.

As an FBI agent. Um, because as I said, I was still expected to run cases and do whatever back in my office. Right.

“So, like, you were working full on full-time undercover?”

I, there was, I know, I can remember twice.

Maybe there was a third time that I was listed full-time undercover

in the FBI. But all the other times, I would, it might be two weeks undercover. But I go back home. And then I'm a case agent again. And I've got to run training for everybody.

And what firearms and tactics? You ever do, like, Chef forgave it. Been in like a, because that could also see, I just thought it is. Man, I'm thinking of ways I could see you doing undercover.

And I'm thinking, dessert, Chef. (laughing) Or dessert? Yes, with a hand. Because a lot of those guys, you know,

they'll have a beer, they'll have some facial hair, they'll have two, too. It's a lot of art. Oh, no, yeah, I can put the hair in it. It's art, totally.

It's artistic people that are, are kind of chefs. You know what I'm saying? It's like, that's kind of like an artistic, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

That frosting pipette. You like it, the pepper? You put a, you want the pepper? You put a, you want the pepper? You put a set of handcuffs on a nuclear?

(laughing) You know? Yeah, I could see you. (laughing) I could see you doing something like that.

It was pretty good. It was pretty, but most of the ones that you did, it was pretty close to who you were, though. Yeah, the exception would be when I got called from murder for hire.

Because I'm a juicer.

I might know now. I just say he's like, I'm not, not know a lot, but I know funny. (laughing) That's fine.

But since the humor is jovial, but when I'm doing a murder for hire, or what I would call it, Closer, like if you're somebody wanting to do something bad, and you're meeting me and you want a bomb, I call that like I could Closer.

Like I'm providing you with a gun that you won't go shoot up a synagogue or something like that. Got it. I call that a Closer. So those, I, I, my jovial in this case away.

I never, I mean, I wouldn't.

There's no point me really building rapport with you, because you think I'm a stoke on killer. God. And the stoke on killer is usually quicker cases, too.

“Have there been some murder for hire as you got involved?”

Really? And who's often trying to kill him? Is there a commonality there? Well, I would say it would be spousal, right? It would probably be the most, but it would be like,

wife, cheating wife and her, the man she's cheating with, solicit me to kill the husband, because there's like a $92,000 life insurance plan.

Got it. I never, this stuff you see in the movies, I've known some of my mentors, that have done those $100,000 payment hits. I'm like, I ain't name it.

Not in my world, man. It was, it was 10 grand. I'll give you 10. I'll give you 12 grand after we collect the money. Insurance policy.

You're telling me you won't need to go kill somebody on your word. And we, no, it's not how this works. Yeah.

So give me something, you know?

And where would they meet? Where does somebody like that usually kind of meet you at the first time? Like, is there a general place in there? I mean, I've met them in hotel rooms.

I've met them at their place. Right. One of the ones that's in the book. I got, they, they believed we were bikers. I brought in a task force officer.

“They believed we were 1% or bikers and they were hiring us”

to do four home invasions and murder. I think two or three people. But what they do is they knew where the dope was, because the sun was running the dope in the money. So he knew of four different drug dealers.

And he knew where the cash was at, where the guns were at, where the dope was at, and every house. So the plan was to do four home invasions. And then murder two of them. And then I get some money, I guess.

I don't know. That seems like a lot. And she was, she was a wild one man. Yeah. This is later in my career.

And I, I, like I told you, I would joke around and be like, with headquarters.

I'm like, how come I don't get to go to like,

you know, overseas. And how come I don't, how come I don't get to get on big boats. You know, yeah, I can get on one if I'm cleaning it. You know what I mean? I'm getting the charm out the back.

Yeah. Why don't I get the big deal? Yeah. What is this? Well, I get to carry the luggage.

That's cool. Yeah. Well, if I'm in a fancy environment, it's because I was muscle for the main person there. That's it.

Amen. Yes. Do you need that got to stand there? I'll just go back. You know.

“But what's your ever environment where somebody pulled out a weapon?”

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have been. But let me tell you about Tammy real quick though.

Okay. So yeah. Tell him about Tammy. So we go for this one case and it was in Ohio. And this late, we think we're, we know we're going to meet the husband.

And we thought it was the husband's plan. Because we've talked to somebody. It's talked to them. And then we know that they're looking for somebody to do this kind of thing. He thought it was husband's plan.

Yeah. So we go, we go to the garage. And, you know, we're talking to the husband. And he's like, well, that's not my plan. It's my old ladies.

I'm like, well, why are we talking to you then? Where's where's the old lady? She's sleeping. We're all staring, awkward silence. You think I should go wake her up?

I said, I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to no one. Yeah. We're going to do business with the business. He goes and wakes her up. She hops in the truck in the front passenger seat.

They're in the back. She is tweaking. She's clawing herself. Flakes a scanner going everywhere. We're probably in the alien.

You know? Oh, yeah. Oh, you can cook up a little bit of that scanner. Really up a little bow. Poor grants?

Yeah. Hit it. That's true. That's true. That's true.

That's true. So we're driving. And as she's showing us all these spots. She's like talking out fast. She's kind of tweaking a little bit.

At least that's my opinion. I don't know if she was wondering. And she's hiring to kill the husband? No. She, it was her idea.

She just, she, I mean, the husband's involved. But it was her idea. So she's the one that gets in the car because it's her son. She's driving around the boat for these people. Got it.

So she's showing us these spots. But why she's showing us these spots? She starts talking out of its crazy stuff. She's like, um, you know, I'm really into torture. So if you need anybody to torture that you bring.

If you, I'm really big into it. And I'm like, well, okay. Driving. I'm like, all right. And again, it's later my career.

Yeah. I'm just kind of, I don't know if I'm nonyaliner. These sense of ties or whatever you want to call it. But I'm driving. She says, you know that you can take.

Uh, I can get graphic on here. Um, because it's graphic. Okay. So she says in the book anyway. She says, um, you know, you can take a hanger and band it on the end and shove it

Mm. Sorry. I hit the microphone. So I said, all right. Bend the hanger on the end, shove it into a man's penis.

Rip it back out and then pour salt in the wound. No. Now the guys in the back are going, oh, getting this gray old man. And I'm like, literally two weeks prior to that. I'd had my second one bar fusion.

The surgery was great and an easy recovery. But they had messed up. I had to get dry cath. So as she described that, and I'm like, I, that's pretty much what I felt to him. So this is home with kids.

Yeah. So then she's like, and then you can take. There's another one you can do. You can take a PVC pipe and shove it up. Somebody's anus run barbed wire up in it and rip their anus from the inside out.

Well, that's insane. Right. And I'm looking at her. I'm going, we pull up to the red light. And I'll leave her not good.

Why are you so angry? And she's like, yeah. Yeah. She said, I think one of the lines. She don't know if she used it right then or later.

She said, I've been unlucky and love. Wow. So as we're talking damn, I mean, she's looking at. She's doing like, it sounds like she's doing side quest from Home Deep. Or something in Laredo or whatever.

Because that shit's out. I mean. Another cover in Laredo. What is she talking about it? Yeah.

She sounds just like an angry ex-lo's employee or whatever. So we're driving.

“And I'm like, are you sure you don't want to kill these people?”

No, no. Everybody knows me around here. But if you need somebody towards her, I can torture her. I'm like, oh my gosh.

So we pull up to the next red light and she says, you know, my husband, I told him never

going to Bender again. She said he was going for three or four days up all the time. I don't, I can't think it was cocaine. She said he was using, but went on the cocaine bender. She said he came back.

She couldn't find him. He came back. She said he passed out so hard. He didn't wake up. You know what she did to him?

I mean, he's a skinny man. She said so I went and got a two by four and I shoved it under his legs and I took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board and he didn't even wait when he woke up from it. He's trying to stand up, but it's stapled to the board behind him and he's, he's

trying to move and he's screaming for her to take it out. She said no, he had to call his friend over to do it. We confirmed it with the husband now. What thought man? She's got to be full of it.

And he said, no, she did it.

And I said, and you still weather, he said, I ain't never had nobody do anything like

that to him. Yeah. He, it's love, sometimes love, it's just, it's violent. I know. And so when she said that part, as we're pulling up to stop, because one of the, the task force

officer, he was like, hey, you guys, man, remind me, never to piss you off. You know, one of those things, you know, and when we pulled up, you know, all that stuff front through my head, all this scenario is, and we pulled up like a, you watch a lot of slasher flicks and she goes, I saw all that watch and I went, man, I was making sense. I was talking about human synopee, like so and a body into a body and I'm like, good,

gravy. I'm like, but in my mind, I'm laughing to myself because I'm going, these are my people. Yeah.

“This is what my skill said leaves me to you know what I mean?”

I go back in the back woods and somebody's talking, not, not trying to chastize anybody, but they're talking, they don't have any teeth, and their lips aren't moving. I had to revert back to my family. Some, some distant people in my family to go, okay, now I know what they're saying. It's horrible.

Yeah, I now know what they're saying because it first I'm like, what? And I'm going, oh, I know what you're saying. Yeah, this way. Yeah. Translating.

Oh, yeah.

Well, you never really lose where you're from, you know?

Uh-huh. Just start hanging out with them. I'll get more and more country. Oh, dude. Yeah, that happens quick.

You go home. You just go. And home comes back to you, you know, because it's always been there. Sometimes it's just like, uh, it sits on the sidelines. Sometimes it's, it's intermingled with the new places you're at.

Um, was there ever any spaces where you got involved in there was like, um, like, human sat, like any, any type of like sacrificial or like ceremonial stuff that kind of went on? Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, so working domestic terrorism, they started the, we started seeing a shift

where a lot of the white supremacist groups were claiming to be outnest, right? They were claiming to be pagans, um, but that's not illegal, um, and I've got some very good friends who are pagans, and they are Odinists. So if Odinists bring that up, Odinists, Odinists, um, is generally a racialist oriented practice that places the highest fundamental view on the figure of Odin.

Uh, Odinists pagan, usually refers to a North Germanic pagan who centers their practice on the God Odin, but in modern usage, the term Odinist is heavily in tango with far right radical, uh, far right racialist groups. And a straightforward religious sense, Odinism is a form of Germanic, Norse paganism that honors Odin as a cheap deity along with other North God, such as Thore, Freya, Freya,

Freya, Freya, and Freig. Um, can you give me any, uh, any better information about that?

“Yeah, because I'm going to disagree with what that just said because that's what I was”

getting ready to say. Okay. The pagan part right there, relationship to pagan, that would read that.

Well, it may be their time, the word Odinists, two white supremacy, but that was what

I was going to say that true pagans are upset, because, you know, Hitler used a lot of Odinism stuff. You would see like the son and grad, you would see all the, all the, uh, Norse-type mis, uh, ruins and stuff, but that doesn't mean that they're white supremacy. So maybe I'm out of that.

Odinism is a modern neo-pagan religion that revives the ancient Norse and Germanic worship of deities like Odin and Thor emphasizing personal honor, bravery and a connection to nature while many practitioners view it as a universal nature-based faith, specific branches, and extremist groups have co-opted the movement as a racially exclusive white supremacist ideology.

“Is that, yes, that's what I was talking about.”

Okay. Got it. So we started seeing, uh, a shift back, I guess you can say, because even under the Hitler, uh, neo-Nazi stuff, you would see a lot of, uh, Norse-runs and Norse mythology and stuff like that. But what year was this when you were seeing this?

Uh, well, I mean, so the base case that I'm going to talk about was 2009, we took it down in 2020. Okay, got it.

Yeah, took it down in COVID year.

So you start seeing that and I've got close friends here at Pagan's, and you look at the esoteric community, they are unhappy. The esoteric community. Esoteric is pagan. Esoteric.

Yeah, esoteric. Esoteric. So they believe in, uh, the Norse pantheon. So what you read, uh, Thor, Freya, you know, fire, fire and frig and frig, Odin, uh, uh, as the Norse.

But there's a frugget about it. Yeah, forget about it. Yeah. That's the Italian one.

“There's, uh, there, there are other, there are other pantheons where people might”

be like, oh, I'm an Egyptian pantheon or whatever. But we started seeing this stuff and if you go and look at Pagan's, if, like, back, uh, wow, I mean, you find it Christianity too.

They were sacrifices, right?

Um, so we had the Bible at Sacrifices. Yeah. Old Testament. Um, so one of the cases I did, I whistled Thor. So one of the cases I did, uh, was into an acceleration group.

So I go into great detail in the book, but it's like, if you ask the average person in America, you know, what do you think a wise supremacist is, a lot of them, they may know Neo Nazi, they may even know like a skin head, or they're going to say like KKK, click those clan, hoods and robes and stuff. That's not what this is.

These are accelerations and they don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse either on its own or from mad, made of it. Man made events and they want to speed that up. They want to speed it up through guerrilla warfare tactics, like it's just small hits.

This picture like power grid goes down over here, water systems poison over here, train be railed over here, anything to create chaos. Got it. I'm not saying it's the best game plan in the world, and it's maybe hard to wrap your mind around.

But we, they came on to our radar, um, from being online and recruiting and they were recruiting online and you in a lot of your accelerations also, uh, groups were big on what we call flyering or stickering or post-drinks. So you put a flyer and it'll be like a, save your race, join the base, you know, survival is a group.

There you go. And see that QR code. So you scan that QR code and it takes you right to bit shoot and there's a recruitment video right there. And that's my picture right there.

Those are bubbles being burnt right there in that fire. They are. Yeah, if you blow it up, you'll see a holy Bible on that pitch. I ain't leaking them it down.

“I don't even want to see that, but I believe that it's happening.”

And so, and who's the people on the left? Is this? That's a Christmas thing. They joined the levee over there and Lafayette, is it? No, that'd be a 20 to 30 foot crawl, so I'm fired with diesel fuel.

They're standing there, man. Oh, no, there's a lot of history in the click last clearing. Um, I don't know if we should have someone on, so I'm just to learn even about it. And there's Matt Damon. It's the obviously he was involved.

Um, sorry Matt. That's clean cut. That's clean cut. Scott van. Is it really?

That's a polaroid picture. Yeah. You've got to just realize. Yeah, that's not. Bro, you do look like Matt Damon right there.

Bro, you look like Matt Damon right now. No way. I'm not even joking. Bring up. People must tell you this all the time.

No, I used to get confused for Toby Keith all the time. No. Be Keith, dude. You look like Matt Damon. Dude.

Yeah, right in there. That pitcher does actually look like Matt Damon, I didn't even realize it. Matt Damon is going to play you in your life story one day. That'd be pretty wild. Um.

Okay, so you're infiltrating. So you get into this group with the base and yeah, so yeah, well, how do things escalate and what are you learning what you get in and you were telling me that for interrupted you going? Um, so I'm going in to where they're posting because they're trying to recruit.

And it would be like, you know, if you're interested contact us at the base underscore one at protonmail.com, kind of. Again, proton mail, thinking that it's fully encrypted, uh, I think that was based out

I'm not sure.

I can't remember right now.

Um, so I, I start liking some of their stuff. They start responding back and then I start emailing. So I go through like a week to a week and a half of emailed questions. Pretty thorough. What can you bring me?

The table, the same the other. And then I'm instructed to, I mean, my height, weight, ethnicity, all that stuff.

“And then it says, um, if you want to read that.”

Oh, Geneva, Switzerland. All right. Proton Mills and Switzerland. Okay. Come on.

All right. Thank you. So then I'm instructed to download the app. The wire app. It's called wire.

It operates a lot like what's app.

So I'm told to download it, reach out, and then on a Friday afternoon in July of 2019, I did like an hour and 15 minute panel interview. I couldn't see them, but I could hear like four to five voices. Really? And it was it what you guys understand on two sides of a fence or something or what was going

up. I was just on the app. That was online. Yeah.

“So I'm just listening to them and they're asking questions.”

Like I said, I don't know if they're going to tell me to cut my phone on, show myself. And so I was in a club talking. I'm picturing some damn home improvement type. You understand and over the time. I jumped in my truck and drove to a abandoned parking lot.

And I was making sure I had anything. I cleaned it. Make sure there's nothing in there. It's this Scott Payne. I think you can see anything.

Yeah. Know where you're at. There's an old truck. You know. So I did that interview.

And there was a lot of stuff because the acceleration is.

But their Bible is basically a book called Siege.

That book Siege was written by James Mason. He's a long time white supremacist. He created Adam Waffen, another accelerationist group.

“But it's essentially a bunch of interviews.”

But he idolizes like, there's a lot of Satanism in there. He idolizes Charles Manson, things like that. But there's a lot of that for instance. Accelerationist. Let me say this.

So accelerationist, you know, you've seen the white supremacists that are out on the streets with picket signs and yelling during Pride rallies or whatever, that's not an accelerationist. The Perth of Siege method, number one, that makes you a target number two, let's everybody know you are. Got it.

Number three, it does nothing for the cause. That's what they're saying. So we're going to do those guerrilla warfare. It's okay. That kind of thing.

Bring it up again. Siege. That real quick and side it, Siege. Siege. The collective writings of James Mason and Theology of essays about the Neo Nazi James Mason.

After growing disillusion with the mass movement approach of Neo Nazi movements, Mason began advocating for white revolution through terrorism. The book was reviewed in several periodicals upon its release and was praised and distributed by the influential white supremacist Tom Metzger, most Neo Nazis at the time either ignored or criticized the book.

In the 2010s, the book found a new audience among online younger Neo Nazis due to the book's Republican republication by the Neo fastest form Iron March in addition to its promotion of Neo Naziism, it lionizes serial killers, mass mortars and Charles Manson. Siege advocates Neo Nazi lone wolf terrorism. Yep.

So let's go off of that. Okay. So the base, I'll do that interview, they asked me all kind of the stuff, I answered best I can again, tennis, right, I don't know what they're throwing at me, I'm just going to be ready, all right.

And then he tells me, I can tell who the leader is on there because it's the deeper voice, but it was when all done is our, after they've explained to me, acceleration is what the base believes, siege culture, they gave me a 24-hour rest period. And they said because now I know what they're about, I can decide where they really want to be a part of it and they can talk about whether they want me to be a part of it.

Got it. And true to the word, 24 hours later on this Saturday, I got hit, paying something to the effect that we'd like to have in the organization, and I said I'd be honored. So they tell me, they go, where are you at, I said East Tennessee, and I said with a close as a cell, C-E-L-L, because I know I got a country accent, C-E-L-L, the closest cell

to me was in North Georgia. And then I was contacted by the cell leader, but to partly off of what that said, terrorism, siege, he said, forget all this, grandstand, and go more terrorism, lone wolf attacks. So a lot of people don't know this, Al Qaeda translated to English as the base. Al Qaeda's M-O was three to five men and sales, all over the world, training for D-Day,

waiting for the phone call. The bases M-O, three to five men and sales, all over the world, training for what they call the bugleoo. If they're still calling it that, I've been retired for five years. And when you met them, are these guys, are they aggressive like males?

It depends, but it wasn't like back in the hammer skin, white supremacy, heavy metal,

mosh pit crowd, but I don't want to get too much on a tangent, but I will say this. When I'm instructing number one, we don't like to say the names of the mass shooters. We don't want to give them any credit, you know? I'll name every victim from Calabang. I'll name every victim from Charleston.

“Every victim from Buffalo don't want to say the kids name, or the shooters name, right?”

But sometimes I'm teaching undercover, I have to, because we're talking about a certain thing. But what I'll say to people, because it sounded like you were like, hey, were these jackdudes or whatever, all shapes and sizes. But what I'll tell people is I said, don't underestimate.

If I showed you a picture of the kids from Calabang before Calabang happened, what would

you say? If I showed you a picture of the kid from the Aurora theater shooting Orange and Yellowish there, what would you say before that happened? Charleston, bowl haircut, skinny kid, but they still kill a lot of people, right? So don't underestimate, because dad is dead.

We had a shooting here in Nashville. My buddy, I'm buddies with the guy that had the pistol. The two shooters, I met him through some other trainings, and I just seen him within a month of that shooting, and you know, just don't underestimate.

“So, I made him, and when I called me, and would you wear the medium, do you have to,”

I mean, how do you even pick out an outfit? I don't know, I wore it like, maybe like some high-king type pants, you know, I didn't show up all bikers, but I go to meet him, and they tell me, they instruct me. You come to Rome, Georgia, I want you to park here, I want you to take a picture of the statue downtown, and then I want you to send it to me and they're watching.

I don't know how big, because with that point, we knew we were going to meet somebody, you called themselves TMB, I didn't know he was bringing a guy named Pestalance with him, I didn't know, we just, they're trying to cover me, and I met the case team that I, even

though we talked on the phone, I'd never met him before, so I dropped down to Rome, Georgia,

because now I'm being, this is crazy. I know, because now I'm being invited to meet him, good for a face-to-face vet, I like the bedding in real life, because I passed the other one, I passed the emails, I passed the interview panel, now I got to pass a face-to-face meeting. And when I met the case team, again, we don't know who we're meeting or where we're going,

we got an inkling, I think, but I know we didn't know everybody in the group, we did not at all, and the weather was bad, so it's like, I don't know, can you get any kind of areas surveillance, not when it's raining and stuff like that? It's a little light across in the rain, too, so you're not really going to see it. Well, the, okay, acceleration is don't do the cross, got it, my bad.

Lightings. The KKK does. Got it. These guys are hiding, they're all wearing Flectorn Kemma, what calls the Flectorn Pattern is German, they're neo-Nazi, so they wear nothing but the German pattern, that does not

“mean if you have Flectorn that your white supremacists, it just means it's that's what”

they wear. So I pull up, that made the case team, and they're like, hey, we want to slap a GPS tracker on them, I'm a truck, just in case, and I'm like, yeah, so I said, yeah, it's a squad's has it. Yeah, it's my team, my cover team, and because, let me explain you this way, I was assigned

to Knoxville. So I'm an FBI agent in Knoxville, but because the targets lived in Georgia, well, now you got Atlanta Field Office and the Rome RA, which is the satellite office out of, so that's who's going to be working on those targets, right? Right.

So I go down there to meet that cover team, or case team, and we talk about some stuff, I make some phone calls, and I see them kind of go under the back, driver side quarter panel, so I don't know where they put it, but I know it's somewhere up in there. I pull up, I can't find a parking spot, I'm going back and forth on wire, hey man, I'm here, look, I found a spot, but it's behind a coffee shop, I'm in, I think I was in a white

forward or something, I came to a truck, I was driving on that trip, but give them the description of the truck, and then they go, I'll see, and I see them come walking. So what comes walking up is about a 21 year old, and soon to be 21, and in 19 year old kid, TMB is Luke Lang, he's about 62, maybe, 220, 225, but kind of front me. And then, pestilence is Jacob, and he is kind of more, not golf, but more like black

metal, but he's got BDUs blouse into his eight inch tactical boots, and then a tank top of some black metal band, you know, shaved around the side, probably quare one of those, you know, I went, no, I'm talking to like, we're, we're going to talk like probably like a hell witch, the bot, uh, Satanic good ritual, this kind of bands, you know, that kind of shit.

Yeah, and, and all of the days if you've been to a concert like that, it's like, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's just, it's like what I've seen played when they're trying to break people like one tunnel, that's what they're playing in the bottom, yeah, with

leg, when he's in there, cuts it on, so they come walking up, and, you know, it's

first meet, so clearly I'm clean, because I don't know what they're going to, I mean,

“yeah, they, if they're doing their wear with all, they're going to check me, right?”

How many times you're head, you go, okay, is there nothing, like, am I missing anything, like, that would have to be a lot, you know, in, like, I'll check, I'm even have somebody checking me for sure. I'm a, I'm a clean my truck, but I mean, hey, search my truck, is there anything on here that would let you know?

Yeah, search my truck. Yeah. I mean, what if you just got dry cleaning, then you're pushing your tags in there, you know? Oh, yeah. Or prescription medicine, and it's in your real name, you know?

So, they're walking up there, you guys are behind the coffee shop. Yep, and he comes up and he says, you know, I'm like, hey, I came in, it's white warrior ready, you know, like, hey, I'm, I'm white warriors, like, I'm TNB, it's peasants, they make cool, little niceties, and then I need you to put your phone in airplane mode. I said, okay, put it on airplane mode, and he pulls out this thing, it looks like the

Gagger counter man, like a triangle card on it, it was big, all kinds of lights and stuff, like, what the heck is that? So he wants me, nothing, I'm cool, he starts wanting inside the truck, and I'm like, all right, and he's walking down the side of the truck, that thing starts going, it's just getting louder and louder and lights are going off on it, and I'm like, oh, no, it's picking

up the GPS tracker, and he's walking, he gets right to the back fender, and I'm like, I've already used my right leg back, I'm starting to get in that stance, because I'm like, it's getting ready to go. I'm just, you know, it's what's going to happen right now, I don't know if they're armed or not, I'm going to assume they are, and right when it was going, it's going nuts,

pestilence says, you think it could be the power lines, because where we were, it was a steep hill in the power lines, right? So he walks over, and it, that thing goes nuts. What I found out is that thing picks up, it's a $500 piece of equipment in 2019, $500 piece of equipment that picks up everything, every air wave there is Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, RF,

whatever, it'll color code in different sounds, yes, somebody whispered like, no, I still got her, yeah, whatever, yeah, so I lived to find another day, he said, he said, hey, follow us to another place, so at that point, I'm calling the case team, and I'm like, you

“need to shut the track off, I'm like, you need to shut it off, and they're like, oh, we're”

not sure if we can shut it off remotely, and I'm like, well, you need to try, and they're like, well, if we shut it off, we don't know if we can get it back on, I said, what I'm telling you is, whatever he's got, it's fine in it, and if you don't shut it off, it's going to be a quick undercover, and it should be your choice. Well, I mean, they were, they were saying technically, like they were saying, can you cut

it off from a remote, and if you did, can we get it back on, and I'm getting it concerned, you don't want to lose me, but I'm like, hey, so luckily, I want to lose me, I know, right, luckily, they got it off, and I pulled into the parking lot of abandoned concrete plant. I'm like, pull in, I'm like, looking up to the look, I'm like, that's funny.

Yeah, how many people have I seen die in the movie at an empty concrete plant? But they wanted me and it didn't go, they wanted the truck and it didn't go off, and I'm like, cool. So then I go and ask my star of me and everybody, and then as the months went on, you

would go and train, and we'd never play ball together, anything, well, like, would you

“do any social excursions, field trips or anything like that?”

I'll shoot and I'll train it. Really? Yeah, because, because Luke's dad had a hundred-acre property in Rome, Georgia, and that's where we did a lot of our training. That cell in the Maryland cell would come down and train, and then at one point, we started

finding all kinds of things, like, you talked about sacrifices, which gives me into it. So I'll speed up to that. During the case, you started identifying more and more people, and those people are some of them outside of the United States. So our world working partners are opening cases on them.

Some of them are in all kinds of states in the US, but as I explained before, that means that maybe Seattle is FBI's opening case on the person that's in there, or maybe Detroit's opening cases, Georgia's opening multiple cases. Alabama's opening case, it just goes, 'cause at any given time, there was a good 50-something people in the base, but the base was more like an umbrella group, because every member

that I knew that was in the base, they were also a part of another white supremacy group, whether it'd be out of Moffin or a green brigade, or a man was a son, and I can't remember the name of it right now, but so you were a member of another group as well.

But we did training, and that first weekend, and remember, I'm a firearms instructor

certified of the FBI. I was the lead tactical instructor from my division, and a 19-year-old kid, lead carbine, and lead shooting in tactics, he led the training, and it was good. They weren't bad, and I'm thinking, man, how did you learn that you, I mean, you're not, you didn't run the military, you're too young to be getting an out, to learn this.

He said, no, I think it was mainly gaming, and then his dad took him to a range, but

know who, you know, what their shooting was, I was standing back when we started, I was glad that they were good and safe, but I was also scared, 'cause if they were planning on doing something bad, they were pretty good. Oh, I'd be sorry, spit, man. So, one of the big things, like with undercover, you go in there, you've got enough to go

in, it's all been approved, there's a, we've got the reporting, and people are predicated,

“so we're going in, but do you have enough to charge them?”

Well, in instances like this, you've been spewing a lot of hate online, you've been saying

a lot of crazy stuff, but is what you're doing just first amendment protected, or are

you actually planning on doing something bad? So sometimes we go in, and you might just be in there for six months trying to figure out, if they're doing, I've been in cases for five, six months, and I come back to the team and go, they're not doing anything illegal, man. It's all first amendment protected, and we're just spinning our wheels at this point, you

know? What did that turn for the base, when did that kind of? So, I got, we were already talking about a bunch of stuff, and I was starting to get the DM conversations going on, where it's more private, direct messaging for those that don't know.

And what is your wife thinking, when you get home on the weekends, you've got a lot more white laundry, or whatever, no dark stuff, or I come home smelling like diesel fuel from the clear, and for the clear close client, they call it client-colon, because you can't stay on that cross-up without the diesel fuel poor and all that, unless somebody was holding a number of everything, I guess.

Yeah. But, okay, so take us back in. So, at one point, there's somebody that gets docs, and for those that don't know what doxing is, basically, outing you, right? And the far left is very, very good at it.

They're really good at doxing you, showing up to protest at your kid's school, at your business, at your home, your parents, whatever. And the right far right from what I experience, can't stand that, because they feel like

“they're losing their life and their identity, that's why they're huge on anonymity.”

So, all these pictures, you see, if you pull up the base stuff where the BBC and the Guardian was blasting all this stuff, I mean, I'm there, but we're wearing balaclava's. That one right, I'll show you one that was me. Yeah, that's me, right there. I'm on the far right.

You're in that group photo? Yeah. And who took the pictures? Did you guys go to a plane?

No, no, I just wanted to get one of the guys that didn't suit up, because you're always

trying to recruit, how was recruiting going over all did you feel like? I mean, abs and flows, you get people coming in and then you vet them and then some people might drop, some people might get doxed. So, so, any women in it? No, no, which was something I kind of, there was a lot of the guys that did not have partners.

Oh, you'd have more men and if you had more women in it. But what they don't have partners. So, think about this, we're talking early about radicalization online, picture for these cases. I'm just gonna say it's a young white guy, a young white man, he's probably an outcast.

He's most definitely been bullied, uh, can't get a date and they're just hating. So then you go on in these groups at night, and this works on the other side too, far left, black sabre just radical jihad, kind of the same thing.

“You're looking for somebody that's, um, uh, like minded individual, and that's how they”

start getting you. Do you think that the media ostracizes white people? Do you feel like it does it? Boy, I'm not answering that. Is that a tougher question?

No, that's probably give you my answer. There you go. No, it depends. I don't, you look, you don't have to, I was just thinking about it like, you know, I feel like there's a lot of like, I don't know.

It's a tough one. It's a tough question. Like, and so what am I supposed to say? I mean, you can point. Have I, am I privilege?

Am I not privilege? Did I get stuff for free? Or did I have to bust my ass to get it? So I don't, I just try not to answer that. Yeah.

I mean, I know personally, what I've had to do to be where I'm at. Yeah. That's a good point, man. Somebody else might not believe that. Yeah.

And it's in the eye of the holder no matter what I say, that you're like, I can talk to I'm blue in the face. If you don't believe me, then that's it. Yeah, what thing about it another time?

Good, but picture, you're in there, you're lonely, and you're looking first.

Do you want to belong? You're just human nature to want to belong. Yeah. And I want to feel a part of something to feel like. Brotherhood.

Same thing, same thing with gang, same things with cults. Biker clubs, it's my brotherhood. You're brother. Now you're, now you're, now you're one of us. Oh, dude, it was not like when you were rolling up, just having your friend.

It's like going to the gym with a friend to go live with. Anything that gives you some connection becomes a huge part of your life. Yeah. So you get that. I'm glad you said that because another way to describe what I was

describing is isolation. Yeah. Oh, it's that's that. And if you're a believer when you get isolated, oh, it's like, the jungle, Africa. If you're a zebra that gets isolated, you're a lot easier to pick off.

You know what I mean? Just say. Undeniably. Yeah.

Isolation is for the devil man.

Yeah. I believe that. Yeah. You know, it's like even though like there's things, even in my own life, it's like, man, I don't want to go.

I don't want to do that. That is not the best part to me talking or communicating to me. Yeah. I'm with you on that. Anyway, carry on.

All right, a guy gets docks, he's a member in South Africa, and he gets docks. And then at that point, one of the members in the base is like, how many of our brothers do we have to watch fall before we do something? And he called for operational, operational, operational night, which wasn't actual operation in World War II, essentially what they did is if you are not white, you're Jewish, you

know, anti-fascist, whatever, they would go down and smash your windows or your business slice the tires on your car or set stuff on fire. So that's what he was calling for. And some members did do it. They went out and tagged some synagogues with some, you know, hate symbols.

I'm trying to mirror if anybody said anything on fire or not.

“I remember being called for slash and tires.”

But so that will start to get a little bit more. People are actually doing over acts and further and stuff. Hey, all right. Even though even though it's just painting, and I mean, but you know, like I've had some people say, hey, man, I mean, they just painted a synagogue, you know, I mean, to be

looking at this many years for hate crime or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but what if you were one of those Jewish people that went to that synagogue. And now every time you go there, you're scared to death because you've seen active shooter, you've seen mass shooter events, tree alive and in Pittsburgh, you know, and I know a lot

of those people now because I've helped out with the radicate eight, um, and the radicate hates based out of Pittsburgh and I've actually met and I'm friends with family members of the people that were murdered at tree alive. So yeah, my friend Michael that I was talking about, uh, this shooting that had happened in Australia, New Zealand.

No, I think it was in Bondi. Okay. I was thinking of the New Zealand Christ church. No, I think it was in Bondi Beach. Um.

Oh, there we go. Yeah. This was in December. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They said to say that these shootings happen more and more often and I just, they start blending

in my head. Which shootings do you mean, just overall? I mean, just like active shooter events. Yeah. Yeah.

I do remember that. That was the seek temple or something I shot up.

“He'd feel like people, um, I don't know, evils always going to be around, you know?”

Yeah. Well, you know, a lot of interviews. A lot of this of new age stuff, like say a lot of like, um, if there's anti-Semitic if it's you a specific hate, do you think a lot of that is coming from, um, like people who have, or do you know, actually, if a lot of it's coming from like, people who have Nazi ideology

from like, like Hitler Nazi ideology, or is it people that are having reactions to, um, some of Israel's tactics and like their governments. It's just going to be both because if you're pro, if it, I got to figure out, I'm a word it right, because I don't anybody say you're saying all pro-Palestine people are no. But if you're own that, that extreme side, this pro-Palestine over Israel, well, a lot

of this people aren't white, so you couldn't be identifying with Hitler, because Hitler's more of the white supremacy, but it's definitely anti-Semitic.

Wait, wait, hold on a second.

They're hating the Jews too. Do you think that's an extremist view that people are pro-Palestine? No. Yeah. No, not at all.

But if you were going to go again, if you're going to go to extreme, or you're going to be happy that people are being slaughtered and murdered and raped and tortured, you know, in your anti-Semitic, um, then you're probably more of that extremism side. Got it. But you were asking me if it was like, is it Hitler driven or is it pro-Palestine, anti-Israel

driven? Yeah. Anti-Israel government driven. Yeah. So just to be super clear.

Yeah, man. I think it's just scary. Like I have Jewish friends that have been like who's spoken out about, like just like being

“in fear and like they're like going to class, you know?”

And I'm like, I don't. I mean, Hitler wouldn't even sell it. Why? I think he, I mean, you can pull it out. I think he, it was determined that he had some Jewish in his blood.

And then there's probably other ethnicities who are scared of our relationship with Israel and what could happen to them in the future. I get scared sometimes. If I, I think with this surveillance statement, I feel like everybody's getting scared. Oh, my goodness.

And now the big, the big, I think the fresh topic right now on surveillance is those flock cameras. Yeah. A lot of my black friends are starting to, I started to fuck them out. Yeah.

I'm not hating on me. I'm not saying do it. I'm just saying that. The block very flopped. That's where I have to.

You see a flock camera on a cold attack. One cold attack. Why do you need a flock camera? I agree. Are you reading plates?

What's going on? Or does it pick up phone stuff?

And it's the third party.

Here's my concern. Third party company. This is not law enforcement. I agree. What are we doing?

So what oversight do you have? Do you have policy stopping? I mean, we've got a constitution.

That's our Bible.

If you, which it goes back to, you know, you're talking about the borders to listen.

If I'm a law enforcement officer, number one, I'm a peace officer. Yeah. Most of the cars used to say to protect and serve. That's your job. You're a shepherd.

You should be. You're protecting the sheep. Yeah. From the wolves. That's, I mean, I'm not trying to be all, you know, Jack Nicholson on the wall and be.

Now what I hold here, then now it's just, my job is to enforce the law. So I used to tell people, I'm like, well, don't hate me because I'm enforcing law. There's been so many people I've arrested or set down at a table with after they've been arrested. And I'll say, man, you know, I'm not saying I disagree with you did.

“I'm not saying I think you're a bad person.”

I'm saying you're an adult. And you made the choice to break the law. And you got caught. So here we are. I'm not hating.

Do you ever get so deep in tangled during like a, um, during, um, like a sting or during an operation or during an undercover. Where at the end you were like, damn, this is going to be a long day when this bus happens.

Yeah, because it's going to bother you.

Yeah. And I'm kind of taking us off off a base. I mean, I'm kind of taking us out off a base of it. Let's get back. So there was the doxing going on.

Yeah. So they did some people tax them stuff. And also during that time, we had a base member who went out and candid them. He was Canadian. And he went and put flyers up to try to recruit.

And then somebody answered the recruitment. They had to go through the emails like I did. They had to go through a interview panel like I did on audio on wire. And then they went and had the face to face meet. So this guy that got recruited.

One of our members who ended up being called punish snake. His name is Pat Matthews. Punish snake. Yeah. So Pat Matthews.

He changed his name several times.

“But he was, I think it's the Canadian version of our national guard counter.”

But he was being trained. He was a military. He was being trained. And he's the guy.

So we get any member coming in.

Hey, welcome new member, blah, blah, blah from Canada. Thank you as name was Mark or something. And he's in the main chat group for about a week. Maybe two weeks. I don't think it definitely.

I don't think it was more than two weeks. And are you in the chat group every day, kind of? Yeah, imagine if I wasn't. So I work my job as an FBI agent. I go home.

I have dinner with my family. And then I'm back out on the porch. You know, answering stuff. Or I'm checking in during the day. Right. But they also knew I was a.

What's up? Fellas everybody still racist. Yeah. They're like. You're going to commit some hate crimes.

But it's so, so this Canadian, this, he meets this guy. This guy gets into the group. And after about a week or so, he, he comes out. And it turns out that it was a journalist for a. Paper.

No, no, no. This, he's a, I guess these days, that's probably what the people are thinking. He, he was a journalist for a newspaper up there. He went and met Pat on his own. And after about a week or two, they were like, hey, this is two.

Dave, you pull the shocks right up right up. So this article comes out. And it's basically. Doxing. Pat.

So Pat. The, the, the, the, the, The, Royale, Canadian, Manipolice, our CMP comes to his house. And he takes his guns. He's booted from the military thing.

His parents now hating. I think he lost his job. And all of a sudden he disappears. Wow. His truck has found at the border.

The border of Canada and the United States. So we're pretty sure he's here. But we don't know where. Right. Eventually we find him.

And he ended up being down at my cell. He was, he was renting out one of the horse stalls under the barn. Under the, the residents on that hundred-acre property. So I got the guy sleeping there. Yeah.

So he's been spending a lot of time down there training. And it just got crazy and crazy, man. And it was like.

“And what kind of stuff are they saying or they're like, like, how?”

Like everything's preparing for the, preparing for the building building your kid. I mean, a lot of these kids didn't even have, I said kids. I mean, I, I was 48. I lied and said I was 44 at the time. Um, because literally there was like one other 40 something.

I, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. There was 40 something. So the leader was 40 something. There was one other day that was in his 40s. There might have been 2, 30 somethings and everything else was 20s and teens.

Wow. Um, a lot of these, uh, these kids didn't have a job. They didn't have a collar. They had the bar collar to come to the training. But they were wearing cry position plate careers.

Same thing. FBI SWAT team wears. Got it. They're wearing, they're building their kid up. They're pistols.

They're, they're, uh, they're semi-automatic rifles. They're ARs or they're AKs. And, uh, and we're coming out and training, man. Moving drills. And you know, I mean, I'll be the best, but still.

I mean, I was looking at a lot of them going holy crap, man. If they wanted to take on some, if they wanted to do something, they're, they're probably going to get the drop on a lot of people. Right. You know.

That's what Harry did. It's so, it's fascinating to think that that goes on. So once we found Pat, um, and we had him locked down. So we're like, okay, we feel like we're in control of the situation.

Uh, are they plotting something or they're not? There was anklings of things being whispered and said. And we're, as a case team in an undercover, all the case teams. I mean, at one point, we had 100 people on a call once a month.

“That's how many cases teams there were in the United States working with stuff.”

Um, and it was just kind of like, uh, did they mean that? Did they not mean that? You're trying to find out. Are you going to do something bad? Or are you not?

Yeah. Are you just talking trash?

First of all, remember, protected.

And then you're waiting for the day and then it's purge. Yeah. Um, so we get this all started because you asked about the sacrifice thing. So a lot of these guys believed in the north, north, north pantheon. So they were claiming pagan, but they're wise supremacists.

They're not tree pagans. Got it. They're wise supremacists. And we've already had a couple of blots. The LOT.

That is the ceremony for the worship ceremony. Um, do you give a good at that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There were some that we had that had some people leading it. That was, uh, really, uh, they were. Some of them were actually priests in the assault true family.

Just doing what side jobs or whatever. No, no, no. I'm just mean they've, they've obtained the rank to basically be a preacher.

They are, they're a priest and they can run a block.

Um, so I attended some and it might be in the middle of the summer and you go down there and you paint rooms on your chest and we do the whole ceremony. And they'd be like, uh, take like a piece of wood and carve carve, uh, some rooms in it. Which were pagan. Are you any else?

Yeah. Yeah. And then it would be, uh, then, but then there would be like swastikos and plight supremacy stuff on there too. And then you would, you would cut yourself and bleed on the wood.

And then we set the wood on fire and pray to our gods until the wood stop burning. So I was getting in closer. Yeah. And then, and then it was just going so fast. Uh, Theo, I tell you.

You ever wake up believing it? No. No, not this. No. I mean, some of these cats were cats.

Some of these guys were saying that Hitler still alive and all it were. Yes. And he's hanging out with 15 foot giant white dudes with red beards and they're just waking to come back. And I'm like, for what?

Yeah. That's crap. I'm gonna come on back. If you're saying we need to fight right now. What are they?

What's Hitler? Yeah. Come on. Yeah. Unless he's waiting for NIO money or what?

Yeah. Exactly. I'm switching teams. Somebody give him a deal. Probably.

Um, but. So we get to this point and it's Halloween of 2019.

And we're going to have a basically what people refer to as a hate camp.

We're going to be either training and training. I did some hand-to-hand combat training there. We'd already started doing fire arms, but that Halloween night was a Thursday night. And in 2019. So we have a few drinks.

I go back to my truck. I'm actually charging my phone up because the battery's dying. You know how it is when you go from like, sleep, ice, freezing cold and you hop in that warm vehicle and you kind of just be for us and then you knock off a little bit. I knock it off a little bit.

And I wake up to the pounding on my door because I was already pale horse by this time. Um, I switched my code name and they were like, pale horse, pale horse, wake up, wake up. I'm like, wait, what's going on? They're like, you got to see this.

You're not going to believe it.

“I come out and they go, hey, remember talking about sacrifice and a goat.”

And I'm like vaguely. And they're like, we got one. And I'm like, oh, they went. I mean, not far down the road. Yeah.

To a guy who had three. And turns out that he came out because he heard them. They were armed. They had their flex torn camera on with the ball of clubs. They're face.

I mean, it's a wonder. Nobody gets shot right there. But they steal the goat or a ram. I don't know the, I mean, I've asked people the difference. It was big.

It had horns. I don't know if it was a good or a ram. But they, uh, I walk up and they're like, uh, had it in the back of the truck. And one of the members who went by, uh, Dima.

Dima says, man, this goat shitting all over the truck. And I said, well, hell, I would be too. I went to an end with those reflect torn and ball of clubs. Just jerk me out of the backyard at gun point. I'm like, back out.

You know, and, uh, and then Eisen was going to be running the blood on this one. And I see him over there and he's petting the goat. And he's, uh, it looks like he's showing it up and stuff.

“And I walked up and I said, man, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat?”

He says, hey, pell horse. Don't let you hear the goat. Eisen was a guy's name? Yeah. That was his codename.

His real name was William Billbrough. Oh, it was like his Eisen sounds like a Jewish name. It seems like a weird name to him. I think I think it was actually a room. I can't remember what Eisen stands for.

But anyway. Eisen is German and Ashkenaz, a Jewish surname meeting iron. There you go. Eisen. Okay, go on, Terry.

So I didn't know that. So I should have looked at it. I spent seven months with the guy.

But shit.

But, uh, I'd be like, oh, iron.

I got it.

“Um, so he says, hey, don't let the goat hear you say that.”

And I'm like, okay. He's like, this goat, we're showing this goat love. We're going to sacrifice it to start the wild hunt. And it's going to be with Odin tonight. This is a good thing for the, you know, no negative energy, basically.

And don't let the other people hear you with negative energy. I said, got it. Push that baseball down. Never think of it again. You know, underwater.

Let's go push it down. So I walk over to, uh, let me say this. The wild hunt in Norse mythology is essentially Odin and other gods going out in the middle of the night and laying the smack down to all their enemies. Okay. But in the version of the White supremacy, he's saying that this sacrifice is going to start the wild hunt for us to cleanse the world of darkness.

So if you're anti-fash and you are, uh, non-white, when the, when buggyly happens, they're saying, what they were saying is, if you were not fascist, you were automatically anti-fash and the penalty's death. I mean, these days we talk about shooting their own dads. Like, I'd have to kill my dad if he, if he doesn't, if he doesn't.

Right. Switch to be fascist. I'm going to have to kill my dad. Wow. And then one would be like, I'd cry myself to sleep.

But then another would be like, well, I could never kill my parents.

So you guys are way ahead of me. So you're hearing all this crazy stuff and you're hearing, you're hearing, pat down under the, uh, bone and saying, I'm a ghost. My life is over. I don't exist anymore.

Because that's the guy that got, uh, doc. Docs out of Canada.

“And so, uh, can't you all bust the group at this point or now?”

We could, but there's, there's, that's the, I'm going to tell you, in my opinion, as a case agent, on long term cases, and as an undercover, that's the heart's decision to decide when, do we have enough? Or, oh, this new guy just came in one more time, we can get, you know, this, it's tough. Yeah. Because if we'll point you just like playing house or whatever, almost even like a white house.

Right. But what we're charging with other than assisting, getting an undocumented alien. Right now. All right. Now, what charge are you going to come up with?

Because there's no federal domestic terrorism charge. Okay. There are federal international terrorism charge. Some charge are just, but there's not for domestic terrorism. Got it.

Um, so I'm, I'm here in all this crazy stuff. Like, I mean, we can form everybody's been docs. We can have like a staging location or, uh, you know, clubhouse somewhere where it's all us. And we're all ghost. And we just go out and murder.

I mean, it's talking about laying out like a homeless person, learning the pattern of the left. Do you journalist? And then just pop them in the back of the head with a 38 one day and just walk off. Wow. That's a gorilla.

That kind of small hit kind of thing. So we've got them. And then we get to that Halloween weekend. So they tell me they got the goat. And I go to my, my listening device.

And I'm like, hey, talking to the case and I'm like, you can hear me. I'm pretty sure we're going to go down here and slaughter this animal. I'm racking my brain trying to think if there's anything. I'm definitely not seeing anything federal in my head.

And, and I basically just tossed it to them.

Do you want me to shut this thing down or yummy just drive off? It came up with a roof and kind of drive off.

“I said, if you want me to, you need to let me know.”

And I waited. And I stared at my device. I waited. And I waited for my phone rang. I waited.

Waited. Nothing. And I went. Okay. I got some head and down the woods.

So we head down. We carry the goat down. It's probably about 12 of us there. And I didn't. Is it goat sleeping or it's loud?

No. No. We're walking it down. Yeah. So we get down there and just doing goat shit.

Yeah. So we get down there to what was referred to as a holy spot. The torches are lit. Eyes and leads to the block. Talks about.

Hey, we're going to sacrifice this goat to Odin. It's going to be with the elves and everything. And is it pretty organized? Or is the Gallic Read no tough of his founding? No.

He wasn't the best. Now, the other guy tells you about when we were in the summer. I think he was a legit assault true. Got it. Pretty soon.

I mean, it was. It was led very well. This one was a little choppy. You know. That's correct.

Yeah. But. But they're believing. They're believing. They're right.

So then then he has like a bigger than a machete. But it's not quite a sword. If from what I remember. We're all around the goat. He's already given the whole speech about the wild.

And we're going to start killing all. The anti-fashion and non-white. Because if everybody's white, that'll definitely save. That'll solve the problem. No.

I don't know. It's still going to be fighting. Yeah. What are we talking about here? But so I end up.

We're all in a circle around the goat. Somehow I ended up at the back legs. And he's already given this speech. And now he's got this blade. And he's like he's bringing it back with his hands.

He's coming down practice swing. Practice swing. Second of breath. You can hear somebody say, just do it. And he comes down.

I'm holding the back of the gut. He comes down with everything he's got. I heard was thunk. I don't think it broke a single hair. I don't know if the blade was dull or the back strap of the gut was so strong.

I'm like, oh, this is going to be bad. Just going to get bloody. Because I'm holding it. Yeah.

“And then you hear it may take two swings.”

Do it again. You know, it's yelling. And then somebody says, anybody got a gun. I think it was pestle. This is anybody have a pistol.

The rule was as we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there. But the one guy zoom that says, I got mine. I mean, me and Luke TMB both were looking to go in. What this is like the least qualified guy to be holding the weapon. This dude's been up for like two days straight on Adderall.

He worked third shift in Austin, Texas and drove straight to Rome, Georgia. And I'm like, and not coordinated. I mean, gun stuff.

I'm always like, oh, my goodness, man.

You're the last person down here. He's a heck dude. He hands the pistol. Luke takes it from me. This is like a assassin's creed. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So he takes, he takes the weapon, hands it to Eisen. Eisen Chambers around, kind of points towards the goat. And then turns completely away to pull the trigger. And I saw him in the instructor. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Yeah. He's like, what? And I get, man, look at what you're shooting at. Bro, we're all in a circle on our knees. He's like, oh, okay.

I know you, man. I feel like this is a Larry David scan. I know. I mean, part of you. And the comical side, you're like, oh, let him go ahead and shoot.

I'm over here. You know, he's hanging that way. I see he takes out, you know. But yeah. So he puts one right in his head.

And then it goes down. And it twitches for a while. And I, I catch him too. I said, man, why don't you go ahead and put another round in it.

“Because it was debate of, is it after death twitches?”

Or is it still alive? And I said, just go ahead and put it. I said, for the sake of the goat. Because you wanted to show up happy, right? It's going, I mean, it's a good thing.

Yeah. I'm using his words against him. And for sure, let it get that quick. Yeah. I mean, you know, I thought, yeah.

So he did it.

And then you get here's what I say.

And now it's definitely dead. Oh, are we done? No. Now they slice the throat of the goat, fill up a cup full of blood. No.

Yeah. And we're all in a circle. And it warm out a cold out. It is chill. It's cold.

It's cold. Yeah. It's cold. Because whatever happened that Halloween in 2019. It had been like 60s or 70s.

And that day, a cold front can drop to like 10. So we're down there. And he, um, they slice it. They fill the cup up with blood. Everybody's still on the circle.

Except me, I'm holding a flashlight because I didn't decide to bring. I acid to help with the spiritual journey. LSD. Yeah. Yeah.

Had the sheet. Had the sheet. So they'll all took a head or what? No. I didn't.

And that was funny because they were like, one of the guys is like,

Hey, I'm a, I'm a, how do you word it? I'm a very experienced highly experienced psychedelic. Or something. I'm a professional. It's like a, like, because we think you'd really like this pedal.

Or something. Let me tell you something. You have no idea what's in my brain. You have no idea what I've done on this planet in my lifetime. I don't do that stuff.

If somebody slips one on me. And I go on a bad trip. Every single one of you are going with me. Damn. You know, that's the only thing I did.

It's like, oh, yes. Yeah. I mean use that. And then one guy was like, he was like, yeah. Don't do it.

Don't put nothing in the pedal. Or says drink. But I went around and I was shouting. I didn't do a tear tab. Put it under your tongue.

Chase it with the blood. Now you're saying, you know, we're signifying the sacrifice for closing the deal here. Yeah. Now you're a cigarette. Yeah.

So now it gets to me. And I'm one of the last ones. Well, by the time it gets to me, the if I look down and it is clotted. It is chunky. And I'm looking at going, man.

I really don't want to drink this, man. You know, I'm like.

“But I think pestilence or, I don't know if he said it.”

I thought of it. But I just stuck two fingers deep into the blood. I pulled out my fingers and sucked the blood off my fingers. Damn. And luckily, I'd carry the beard down there and I chased it with that.

What kind of beer was it? That night it might have been Bud-like before the controversy. Yeah. Oh, I think. No, I think it was a Bud-like.

But I, if it wasn't a Bud-like, it was a Yingling wager. Who? Which is what I like. Yeah. That's nice.

Yeah. I'm brother. I'm eating blood and freaking doing L.S. Day. I mean, what in the fuck is going on there, right? So we're supposed to get up the next day and train.

No, training was shot. What? Because only like two or three people didn't do acid. And everybody else was up all night staring at a fire. I don't even know what child are training for.

This feels like the New York Jats kind of dude. I'm like, what the fuck is going on there? So they're like, we're not going to go hand the weapons and be running across fields. Yeah. Because they've been up all night and they were hot.

And I'm like, great. He just shot an entire day of training. But I went to go get biscuits for everybody. I went to the Bojangles. Oh, they're good.

What has had one the other day? Yeah. Well, apparently in Rome, Georgia, Bojangles is where it's at. Because cars we backed all the way down downtown. I mean, down the Main Street directly across the street from Bojangles with McDonald's.

They were no cars in it. But I went and I picked up about 30 bacon egg and cheese biscuits. So I'm coming back. And all I can smell is that butter, bacon that cheese and the eggs. That biscuit.

I go to get out of my truck. Punish snakes is pale horse. You got to try this goat. It is good.

“He's been holding that raw goat over a fire.”

It was not prepared at all. I've had some gamey stuff in my life. That was the gameiest taste in me. I've ever put in my diagonal mouth. Yeah.

And as soon as I started biting it after smelling the butter. And as soon as I've been into it. I was like, oh, I was like, oh, that's not too bad. As soon as he turned his head, I tossed it to the farm dog. Yeah, dude, I've had bad meat on some LSD and that's.

You never forget that. You never forget that. You never forget that. Yeah. I've just cut.

I've eaten under cook duck on LSD. Yeah.

And I never forget that shit.

I still sometimes I still floss my teeth. Years later, even just to get the. Just I feel like some of it still in there. So after the sacrifice. The chop the head of the goat off.

What the hell is that? Yeah. We took a picture because the recruitment process was this. Whatever video, whatever new recruitment video we're doing has to be better than the last one. Got it. Every time the base got infiltrated by either a journalist or whatever.

“And they're upset got better and better.”

How did that happen? How did we get infiltrated? How did we stop from happening again? So Saturday night comes. Saturday comes.

Now we can start training again. So we're out there shooting and running and stuff. And now it's warming back up. And we go down Saturday night to the Holy Spot and build a bonfire. We burn American flags.

There it is. Now here's the thing.

He nicknamed that goat Gar.

His name is William Garfield. Billbroke. His grandfather's name is Garfield. So he named the goat Gar. So everybody talked about Gar after that.

I am back row two left from the flag. You can see my neck. There you go. That's made right there. Sean of the neck.

Well, yeah, the ball of clobber didn't go all the way down. So somebody should have called that and been like, "Pet a horse. Your next chewing." You bought that baby clobber. I didn't know they gave it to you.

That's part of your initiation. When you made it in, they gave me the ball of clobber and the three runes. That's smaller clobber. Yeah. Yeah.

I got a horse head. So then we go down and we burn American flags. We burn Holy Bibles.

“And I remember coming back after that weekend.”

And I remember feeling kind of dirty.

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He actually validated me because a lot of people are like, "Oh, you're making this up." I'm like, "Do pull the court records. Pull the reports." It's in there. The recordings that happened.

I don't want you to tell you. I'm not making it up. It's there. But he put, he found another one of the guys. I've seen this guy naked in the basement.

Not much there. All right. So I so wanted to respond.

Because the first thing I was going to say is you're still pinching me naked in the basement

from 2006. Yeah. Must have been tough in prison. Second thing I would have said is, I don't find you or close line attractive. The third thing I would have said is it was very, very cold in that basement.

Yeah. And it's in Massachusetts. Yeah. And the fourth thing I would have said is I thought I was getting ready to die. Yeah.

And that's a whole new level of shrinkage. The last thing I was concerned about is what I like naked. I can't even stay erect around him. Broken glass. You know, I hear a window shut off.

Dude, I won't get hard from month. I just see why my dad was the same way. Did towns go to jail? Yeah. Yeah.

We pretty much, we pretty much dismantled the whole taught in chapter.

But yeah, we pretty much got it.

Have you seen him since he went in? Nope. How long will he be in for? He's out. Oh, he's out now.

She haven't seen him since he got out either. Okay. Got it. How long has he been out for? I don't know.

I don't know if he did six or eight.

“And let's just say, I think we arrested.”

I think we took that case down in 2008. Got it. But let's see if it says. The outlaw is MC taught in chapters no longer active. Having been effectively dismantling a major federal sweep.

Woohoo. There you go. Did he give to miss a lot of things? Yeah.

Like a lot of family stuff?

Yeah. You just thought about like birthdays, Paul. I did pretty good with that. But I miss like some recitals and stuff like that. Yeah.

Or father's day, you know, because it might be putting on the under cover school. It might be being on the case. Because like I said, you kind of go with the case takes you. If you get an opening to go to stir just with the out. I mean, yeah.

I mean, it's all, it's just so it's so fascinating, you know, because life itself, you're kind of. We're all trying to be ourselves and and then to go into life and then go into another life kind of, you know, like an other exist, you know, like. Yeah, my, my big, my big, uh, I guess my.

My Clark Kent walking into a phone booth and coming out of Superman is I, I have a cross on my necklace. And before I was going to cover, I'd take the cross off and it either be. I would either be a Norse, you know, like Thor's hammer, but for most of it, it was just a skull.

But that was kind of my thing. Like I'd go back in. I'd take the skull off, put the cross back on. It was kind of like me saying, trying, trying to leave it there. And now I'm scouting in, but treesfully the job creeped in all the time.

I mean, how's it not going to? When I'm on the under cover call and my daughter's chasing me through the house. And I'm trying not to let her hear me cook because I'm on the phone with a bad guy. You know, sure.

“Are you ever, before you guys got, are you ever worried about somebody coming back from the past?”

Something coming back to launches. They come up and yeah. retaliation. Yeah, you know, I'm not trying to be a tough guy or nothing like that. But I do have a belief system.

And for me, um, I mean, I wouldn't want any family members or anything like that to be in fear. Usually, for me, your best defense is a good offense. That's me. Like, just being a uniform cop. How many people in your town do you think you arrest in a year?

And do you, I mean, they're not all like felonate chart. They back out. It's a good point. So how many times does a uniform cop do you go to the mall or to the movie theatre to the grocery store? And you run into people that you've like, I might have been somebody had to fight.

I mean, you know, so. I never talk about that. And I just, I just walk right up to them. That's me. I see when I go, if they're, if they're eyeballing, I'm not going to let them to plot.

I'm just going to grow up and go, good game. Hey, no, I'm going to be like, brother, how are you doing? When did you get out? How's the family man? Hey, are you clean right now?

Are you good? How are you doing? As long as you're on that.

“Up in, you know, the straight narrow on the right path, I'll help you.”

And I have, I've actually people that I put in jail that I infiltrated, put in jail. But, but they've taken a turn for the better. I, at their sentence, an I wrote an acknowledgement letter or a letter for their character. Amen. So they, and they got probation instead of going to jail.

That's not up. I mean, now, it's, you know, it's, if you get, for me, for the most part, what I've found, because I do really make friendships. I mean, you're creating relationships. But you're, you're betraying them a little, I mean, you're going to be betraying them

if you're undercover. Yeah. But it's almost like the old bucks bunny cartoon. You got the cheap dog, and you got the coyote, and it's Ralph and Sam. And they clocked in the morning.

And all day, the coyote is trying to steal a sheep. And all day, the sheep dogs, beaten the crap, and I'm trying to get, and at the end of the day, they clock out. So you're in the morning, Sam. So you're in the morning, Ralph.

It's just, you know, I've been told, I've been told this.

If you were a biker, and, and you were a part of the club, and you snitch, they'd never

forgive me. But I was just doing my job. Hmm. So you see that a lot of professional snitch, not my snitch. I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm bonded law enforcement officer.

We have reports that you're doing criminal stuff. And I infiltrated you, and somebody did, and we found evidence of that criminal stuff. If you're not doing anything wrong, don't worry about it. Yeah. Do, do they ever, oh, just, this is kind of like a question, almost like the movies.

Do they ever bring retired agents in for like, you know, they ever try and get you back out there for one more. Oh, yeah, yeah, but you would be, if you're retired agent, because you're retired now. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could come back in as a source.

That's a, that's a whole different ball game, though. But they never like, yeah, we got a wheel, yeah, one more time here, you know. Not now. I'm oververt now, man. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, people know that. Yeah, no. You may ever tell us you're doing that, Damon. You know, what is a matter of fact, the other day, somebody did.

And as soon as they pulled up the picture, I went, bang.

Yeah. It would have thunk it. No, I mean, no.

“I mean, it could happen, but once I was nine, I mean, obviously.”

I mean, you do roll a stone magazine in this. And yeah. Would you do it again? Absolutely. Absolutely, man.

But, you know, okay.

They always say, man, you'll know when it's time to retire.

I thought I was going to work to 57. I thought I'd be the undercover coordinator for the state of Tennessee. And maybe I could extend, you know, because that's a skill set that is, that a lot of people don't have, you know. In the Bureau, as opposed to being a tactical instructor. I mean, there's a lot of tactical instructors.

I thought I was going to state of 57. But after the base case, I was like, man, I had to get the back lumbar. I got it at the lumbar fusion. But we can have after the lumbar fusion. I got Tammy talking about PVC pipes and everything else in my truck.

And you just start thinking. She loves to torture Pete. Yeah, I know. I like to torture you. You don't torture.

I like to torture. Yeah.

“You need somebody to torture you call me.”

I swear. I know that.

But the thing is, I was 48 going on the 50.

How many more, oh, I'm any more bait. I can't go. I mean, if, okay, now I'm going to look like a pedophile. Oh, there's an old dude buying beer for young boys and he's teaching them widespread. No, I'm not.

But how can I infiltrate 17 year olds, right? You know, and you just start realizing, just one day hitting me. And it was right after the base case. It was in February. We took it down January of 2020.

February of 2020. I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. We're putting on training. We're training online covered employees for domestic terrorism.

And I don't know what we were discussing about.

I don't know what it was. I knew it was my birthday. Um, but I just this overwhelming feeling hit me in the face like a brick.

“I can't remember what we're talking about.”

But I remember like everything just kind of going. Calm and down. And me saying this in my head. I'm satisfied with my career. Yeah.

Never said it before. Not saying I've done everything. But if I do something now, I'm just starting right back there. But I'm like, I think holy cow. I'm okay.

I think I'm okay. Amen. Yeah. Well, Scott Payne, man. Boom.

Thank you, country. It's maybe I'm country. Thank you so much for coming in, man. Scott. Coach.

Code name, pale horse. That's his book. How I went under the cover to expose America's Nazis. And I was going to say in the paperbacks out now. Sorry.

Oh, nice. And the paperback is out now. Yeah, true. Yes, true. Thank you so much for being here today with this man.

Thanks for sharing your stories. Yeah, dude. What a fascinating existence you've had so far, man. We appreciate your time. But thank you so much.

Give our best to your family, man. And, uh, boo. Yeah. Scott Payne. Thank you, bro.

Thank you, bro. Thank you, bro.