#3 “As a Jew”

In March of 2024, a line was crossed.

Four of them, synagogues were off limits. Hundreds of demonstrations against Israel had been held across the country. But as far as I can tell, none of them had ever targeted a synagogue. Not until March 2024. "We are not here, protesting the synagogue.

We are here protesting a real estate tour trying to sell luxury properties to Canadians on Palestinian land, including an international and recognized illegal Israeli settlements." The Spanish and Portuguese synagogue in Montreal had rented part of its space out

to a third party for a real estate fair that was marketing properties in Israel.

A protest at the synagogue was announced online and shared widely in pro-Palestine circles. A group of synagogue members and their supporters showed up with his really flags to defend their place of worship. Police showed up as well and separated the synagogue's defenders from the anti-Zionist rally, moving them to opposite sides of the street.

The two groups chanted in yelled at each other. But the anti-Zionist protesters had a larger crowd and a sound system. They began with well-known chance in slogans criticizing Israel, but the focus soon shifted. Their speaker began directing his comments, not at the Jews in Israel, but the Jews in Montreal. The Jews who were standing on the other side of the street.

The speaker here is Mahmoud Khalil of the group Montreal for Palestine. A woman on the other side of the street yelled something at him and he turns his attention towards her. Hey, if you're a Jewish woman, go to the back, please, bring them in front of Shatofoko.

“I'd also cover up, cover your head, don't remember to cover your head, right?”

You're not even a Jewel who's the shaman, is that if this Jewel is a Jewel is a Jewel is a Jewel is a woman showing off their eyes and your woman are just jumping around like that, that's what I guess Jewel is. Please take her back. Bring them around on the front, if you have any.

A different speaker on the anti-Zionist side takes the microphone, Ahmad Jarrar Hajamat, he is the founder of a group called Liberate Palestine 48. He's a regular presence at Canadian anti-Israel demonstrations. We're going to free Palestine from your full field of pressure, because you guys already know not a single state of yours as existed more than 80 years.

“And you guys already know that the 80-meter curse is coming around you, do you guys already know?”

That list, that list when 80 years come, you guys will regret actually standing on the side. That way the hell was South Africa, Germany, you guys already know that, you guys try to all press and colonialize South Africa and Germany. The allegation of a Jewish plot to oppress Germany goes back to early Nazi propaganda. In South Africa, Nazi aligned gray shirts, later made similar allegations against Jews.

You know, Ahmad got a part of it now for that long, on the part of it. What he just said translated in part from Hebrew is the people of Israel live, but not for long, mother fuckers.

“It may be important to note here that the term "amisrael," the people of Israel, that”

is a term that predates the state of Israel.

It has always meant Jews.

So what you just heard was, Jews live, but not for long. You know what that means, you know what that means, you know what that means.

Sexist taunts Nazi conspiracy theories and genocidal death threats all lobbed at Canadian Jews at their own synagogue as the police watch on. Why did these protesters come here? Why did they break that long-standing norm and target a place of Jewish worship in the first place?

The answer is that they were invited to protest the synagogue, invited by Jews.

And it's so heartbreaking for us as Jews to see events like this happening tonight in the synagogue, shame, we do this, I love life for Judaism. We are reclaiming our Judaism from Zionism. The anti-Zionist protesters speaking here is wearing a talis, a Jewish prayer shawl, and to keep it on our head.

Her name is Sarah Boven and she's from the group, independent Jewish voices. We are also here on Jewish Montrealers to show those who were yelling and dancing on the other side tonight that there are other ways to be Jewish. After she leads a chant for Palestine, organizer Machmut Khalil praises Sarah Boven. Sarah Boven and her fellow organizers at independent Jewish voices are the ones who announced

and promoted this demonstration. They're the ones who invited this protest to the synagogue. They promoted the synagogue protest as a "Jewish led" event, letting non-Jewish protesters know that they could protest a synagogue with Jewish approval. After this norm was broken, there were more demonstrations at other Canadian synagogues.

One demonstration in Toronto was organized by David Miveser, another member of independent Jewish voices, who describes himself as an anti-Zionist rabbi. Here he is on a local radio show shortly after the Toronto synagogue demonstration. We saw some of the same demonstrations in the same places in our city, rabbi, let me start with you, rabbi David.

“You must be hearing from Jewish people that say, "I've never been more afraid to be Jewish."”

Can I make that case that it's never been less safe to be Jewish in Toronto?

Absolutely not, that's bizarre. It's just bizarre, no Jews have been harmed, no Jews are under threat as Jews. We're telling you that they feel unsafe, and I think we're targeting, and we're feel whatever they want. It's manufactured, it's created, and I'm happy to talk about that.

I'm saying that mainly a manufactured kind of stoked discomfort, there's no real reason to feel that way at all. The presence of Jews at anti-Zionist demonstrations in rallies has lent credibility to the idea that this movement is not a racist movement, and that the Jewish community itself is divided about Israel.

And that's true, there is a divide, but an important piece of context about that divide is often overlooked.

“The fact is that an overwhelming majority of Jews, 94% support Israel, even if they do not”

support its current government. On the other side of that divide are just 3% of Canadian Jews, who believe that Israel does not have a right to exist as a Jewish state. It's tiny minority of a tiny minority, this 3%. They have been front and center in the anti-Zionist movement.

They're regularly featured in social media posts by anti-Zionist groups, and they are regularly quoted in media reports about demonstrations and controversies. Is it you I want to say that Israel makes me sad? I, as a Jew, feel a moral duty. It was that experience that made me rethink what it means to try to live ethically as a

Jew.

I think I should tell you that I said Jew, I will never, ever, ever forgive Israel.

And that has led to a lot of anger from the other 94%. Some of that anger is directed towards the media and the anti-Zionist movement, who are accused of using these outlier voices as tokens, as a way to misrepresent what the wider Jewish community very clearly believes. But some of the anger from Jews is directed towards anti-Zionist Jews themselves, who have

been attacked as collaborators, as traders, as self-heating Jews.

“And perhaps that's why it's been so hard for me to get people from this anti-Zionist”

Jewish minority to sit down and just talk with me. Sarah Boven and the leaders of independent Jewish voices stopped answering my questions,

But David Mavisair did.

I asked him if he comes to town with me for a conversation, not an argument, not a debate.

I wasn't going to try to change his mind, but I did want to know what he was thinking and how he got there. This was not so easy for me. The challenge was to not let the way that I feel about his opinions, getting the way of my goal of trying to understand them.

The rest of today's episode is dedicated to our conversation, and you can judge for yourself how well I accomplish that. I tried my best.

I'm David Mavisair, I'm Jewish, I'm a proud Jew, I feel very strongly, I have good feelings

towards our people, towards our history, I have a very complicated relationship to what's happening in the Jewish community right now in Canada, in Toronto, and also with what's happening in Gaza and Israel. It's very difficult and it's very confusing. And my views change, day to day, sometimes hour to hour, and sometimes I hold multiple

views at the same time.

“I'm trying to speak out loudly, I think that's a Jewish thing, it feels right to me, in this”

moment as a Jew to speak loudly about my views and what feels kosher to me and what my Jewish upbringing and my Jewish education calls me to do. As a youth, I was immersed deeply in both Jewish and Zionist institutions, so I keep your day school and overnight Jewish summer camp, trips to Israel, right? I didn't feel that comfortable in the Jewish world as a kid, but in the last three years,

I've been engaging with joining and supporting a whole bunch of groups, progressive, Jewish institutions in Toronto. I found myself naturally aligning with the only groups in Toronto who are saying what I thought needed to be said about the genocide in Gaza. So the groups I'm mostly aligned with now are is independent Jewish voices, Jewish voice

for peace in the US, if not now, Jews against genocide, those would be the top ones Jewish faculty network, all those groups, and the Palestinian youth movement. They're having a big rally tomorrow in Toronto, I'm going, I'm going to be wearing a keepa, be surrounded by thousands of Arab's Muslims and Palestinians, and the poster I put on my Facebook group has the logo of the Palestinian youth movement and I feel comfortable

sharing that.

“Those groups, whereas they are saying what I think needs to be said about Gaza, I think”

sometimes the language goes a little too far for me, for Rocheshana, I went to a service, which I haven't done in decades, it was being organized by an anti-Zionist Jewish congregation, the tone was really uplifting, but at one point, one of the leaders referred to Israel as the bloodthirsty Zionist entity, and I've heard language like that before, if we're trying to open people's minds, if we're trying to build bridges, if we're trying to create

a space where people with different opinions can come together and learn from each other, I think we should like tone down some of the language, but I also honestly, I have deeper spectrum people who are like, no, fuck it, I'm going all in, people are dying by the tens of thousands, women, children, babies, this is not the time to walk on eggshells, this is not the time to build bridges, and I'm actually working on a piece right now about

how I became a Jewish anti-Zionist, and that is my working title, I've been unlearning my education, everything I was taught about Israel as a child, I feel was either selective omission, exaggeration, distortion, or in many cases, just a complete flat-out line, so at this point, Israel have a right to exist, I don't know, what I'm working on is a documentary with a focus, yeah, anti-Semitism and Canada, the focus is on the rise of anti-Semitism and Canada, since

“October 7th, I think that's cool, what is your understanding of the issue broadly, what's”

been going on with Jews, to Jews among Jews in Canada, since October 7th and why, how would you describe this situation? Sure, yeah, and I want to start by saying, I think it's great that you're having this discussion, let me break that down into two parts, I have experienced a lot of hatred since

October 7th, levels I've never experienced before in my life, written definitely on Facebook,

like vial accusations, and to my face, aggressive verbal abuse that I've never experienced before

So I am currently dealing with a lot of hatred that is coming from my own community, maybe

“it is a form of anti-Semitism, a lot of communities suffer from infighting, right?”

As a Jew, I'm experiencing hatred. Can a Jew be anti-Semitic? Probably, yeah, I would think so, yeah, I would agree. Yeah, for sure, I definitely have no hatred towards Jews, I love Jews, I love hanging out with Jews, I love Jewish rituals, I love, I love my family.

What I asked you was, if you could describe what's been happening to Jews in Canada. Yeah, for sure, what is your perception of what's been happening to Jews in Canada writ large? Yeah, wow, okay, so the reason I want to start with me is because that's the only real authority I have.

I am a single human being and I can reflect deeply on my own experience. For everyone else, it's a bit of guesswork based on what I hear, what I see, definitely the rise and fear since October 7th is astronomical, within the Jewish community, right after October 7th, I knew of Jewish people in my community, in my circles, who were trying to figure out if the Holocaust started again here, where would they hide, right?

Or if I need to buy a gun, where do I get it? People were really going into a panic mode, what the fuck just happened in Israel, all these deaths, these brutal murders, is this about to happen here? Are we witnessing history repeating this? So I mean, that's, that's obviously happening, what's happening towards Jews?

It's a good question, I don't think we have good data, I don't think any of us have an accurate grasp of what is happening to Jews right now in Canada. There's so many different data sets to look at and it's difficult to ascertain which ones are accurate and also which ones are important. So I'll give an example, the most frequent data set used or thrown around or talked about

is reported hate crimes. You won't see many statistics about growing anti-Semitism without seeing the word reported in it. So that's an interesting data set, it's valuable for sure for, you know, looking at trends, but there's a bunch of reasons why that might not be a relevant or important data set,

“and I'll give you a few, like, I think practical reasons, why?”

Number one, the Jewish community in the last few years has been encouraging people to report

in ways that they've never done before, was a huge push, like report report report, and

that's understandable too, like I totally get there. So I think there's a real heightened awareness in the Jewish community that like, even if it's a small aggression, report it, report it, but ain't breath has an app, the app you can carry with you on your phone, just to report hate crimes, it's a hate crime report or app. No other community has that, the LGBT community doesn't have that, the black community doesn't

have that, the indigenous community. So when we say that reported hate crimes are going up, it's very possible that most of that or all of it is because Jews right now have a heightened sense of the importance of reporting.

Second thing is when they're reporting acts of antisemitism, what do we mean by antisemitism?

And there are very clear, substantiated examples, and I think there's thousands of them, but there's clear individual ones we can refer to, where people are reporting things that weren't antisemitic at all. There was that school trustee, she was at a meeting, and one of the speakers at the meeting was wearing a coffee, and she said, "I just want to say, on behalf of Israelis, and on behalf

of the Jewish faculty and the Jewish students of this entire school board, that when that man just spoke wearing a coffee, that was an act of aggression." It's just ridiculous, it's just like so fucking racist. I would think that one measure that would be like, "has anyone killed us yet? Is any of us or any of us dead?"

But when I look at the numbers in aggregate, I see that I'm more likely to choke to death on a marshmallow than to be killed because I'm a Jew. I know that a Jewish woman in Canada is 37 times more likely to be killed by her own husband than by an antisemitic attack. If you look at where the actual violence is in our society, what the actual risks are to

our physical safety, it's not antisemitism, it's not there.

“If I made a list of the 100 top concerns on my mind right now, what I think is most important”

for where I want to put my energy, or a list of the 100 risks to my physical safety, antisemitism

You're pretty uncertain about these reports of a surge of antisemitism.

“I'd say there are no definitive reports of a surge in antisemitism.”

So for clarity, there are two major data sets that are out there. One is the Benebrith statistics, which count many of the things that you're describing. And then the police have their stuff. And then there's the police stuff. It's not enough for the victim, or whoever makes the report, thinks that they're the victim

of a hate crime. It has to meet the police standards as being hate motivated as a crime. So the example that you brought up of somebody, feeling that a coffee is antisemitic, that would not show up in these stats. The police standards much higher.

And by these reports, there has been a definitive surge of antisemitic hate crime. In fact, by the police reported hate crime stats, Jews are now the number one target of hate crime in Canada. Right.

So again, that could be a consequence of more people reporting things that they weren't

reporting before. Because the police can't file a report on a potential hate crime, and that's someone's called it in. In the Jewish community right now is hyper focused on reporting anti-Semitic instances. So it's extremely likely that the increase in reports by the neighborhood or the police

is because people are calling in a lot of these incidents that they might not have called in before. I would describe what you said so far as somebody who is highly skeptical that there is even a rise in antisemitism that you are, I'm sure there's a rise. A rise.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, for sure there's antisemitic stuff happening.

“And I think on the scale of what's happening in the world, it just doesn't register”

to me as an interesting topic. It would be like seeing, you know, a garbage can on fire, it'd be like, oh my god, there's a garbage can on fire when like 20 feet away, there's a 40 story building on fire. So if I'm running a emergency ward, and someone walks in with the paper cut, and I'll be like, okay, let me get you a bandaid.

But if before I get that bandaid, someone walks in with like a bigger cut that's bleeding, I'll be like, hey, bandaid guy, you got to wait. And before I can fix that wound, someone comes in with like a shattered arm that needs instant attention. I'm going to be like, you guys have to wait, I got to deal with this arm, and then

if someone else comes in with like 10 bullet holes in their heart, I'll be like, everyone's got to wait. So to me, the severity of something has to be taken in context with its relative nature to other things that are happening. So you've decided that of every topic in the world to create a podcast about this is the

one. So tell me what's your view, what's your stick on this? I've been taught that we need to keep records. I've been taught that you do not keep quiet about racism. I feel like when somebody says, I'm experiencing racism, we have to listen to them.

So I've embarked on a project where at a minimum, I'm going to sit down with people who say it's happening to them. I'm going to listen to what they have to say. And then why have I gone, I focused on this, because I'm tired of endless debates about what is anti-Semitism, what is anti-Semitism, and I want to actually find out from people.

Okay, that's interesting.

“So that's what I've been doing for months now.”

My lens is, I want to be looking out for any community, including Jews, who is suffering from organized violence against them, state discrimination, and state violence. And when I look at who those communities are right now, I would look at the communities experiencing the most police violence, our black and indigenous. The most disproportionate imprisonment rate is black indigenous, Latino, and Muslim.

So for me, as an anti-racist, I couldn't care less about anti-Semitism right now. It's not on the charts. So you don't dispute that anti-Semitism, actual anti-Semitism is up. Yeah. So an increase, sure, anti-Semitism, since October 7th, is likely increased in Canada.

Do you think that when it occurs, Jews are being blamed for what Israel does? Often, and I think that's valid, I think that's very understandable for people to equate the Jewish community with the actions of Israel. We, as a people, equate ourselves with the state of Israel. That's our whole stick.

So for someone else to, it's not accidental for someone to equate the Jewish community with the action of Israel. It's the same logo, it's the same flag. So when you read that the base high of Mokshah girl's school has been shot at, again and again, and people have to wake up and decide if they're going to send their kids to school

today. At a school where somebody came at night and shot at it and then came back and shot it again, or when you read that there have been bomb threats to Jewish schools in the in the dogs. Yeah.

When you read that Jewish businesses have their window shattered or set on fire. None of the examples you gave to me represent a risk to anyone's physical safety. A bomb threat by nature is not a bomb.

You're trying to cause trouble.

It's by definition, it's non-violent, it's a phone call. I don't think we are unsafe as Jews.

“I think someone shooting a school at night is actually an explicit act of trying to create”

fear without harming anyone. If you wanted to harm them, you wouldn't shoot at 3am, it's a really bad strategy. So it has happened. And smashing a window is a terrible thing to do, and of course that creates fear and it's totally anti-Semitic.

It's a hate crime, it should be prosecuted. But again, by definition, breaking a window does not hurt anyone. So none of these examples, I think, increase the chance of physical harm. It's not a statistical issue for us as Jews of experiencing physical harm, statistically compared to like another 500 things that actually could cause us harm, like tripping on

the sidewalk. I'm sorry, none of those examples were examples related to physical harm. They were actually explicitly examples of people who wanted to make a political message. Racist or not anti-Semitic or not, anti-Sitist or not. But they each acted out, doing it in a way, breaking a window, shooting a wall or window

in the middle of the night, or calling the school about a bomb that doesn't exist. Those are all intentional, political or racist acts designed to create fear without hurting anyone. That doesn't hurt someone, it doesn't hurt someone to send your kid to a school that has constant.

Oh no. It actually creates a norm.

“I mean, that's what it's designed to do, it's to create fear, to create tons of emotional”

hurt, to tons of emotional pain, absolutely, and that's terrible. But I don't believe that it increases, I see no evidence of an increased physical threat to Jewish safety. If I'm at a list of 100 things that intrigues me right now, that I think are relevant to my life, that need attention, that need focus, that need exposure, that need analysis, anti-Semitism

is not on the list. It's a complete non-ishotomy. And when things do move over, as they did in Manchester a few days ago, where Jews are murdered at synagogue, or where they did in Ottawa, where Jewish grandmother was stabbed in the back by an anti-Semite in a grocery store or in Montreal where a acidic man was viciously beaten

in front of his children. So humans can be shitty, right?

So let's say on average that in one out of three million people is capable of committing

a terrible crime either because of mental health issues or just deep racism, radicalized. So if it's of infinitesimally small number, like one in three million, then in a country of 40 million, it's going to happen. It's going to happen against black people, it's going to happen against Jews, it's going to happen against Muslims.

We live in a world that has many manifestations of hatred and violence. So of course, occasionally, every few years, someone will be killed from every community. And again, we're not on the charts. Well, if the gay community freaked out every time three of our people will be killed, they be holding vigils like every hour of their, they wouldn't be able to sleep.

I accept fully that you feel that way. And you've explained that in a way that makes sense to me how you think about these. Okay. What if Cecis were to release a report saying that this is a huge concern for them based on their research that they're seeing online radicalization for religious motivated crime

“against Jews based on their data, would that be evidence?”

No, I'd have to read it covered a cover and see what they were, well, I mean, absolutely might be, but I mean, I would have to read the report on having read it. So if the Cecis report included bomb threats as some, some measurement that that increase is probability of harm, then I would say, it's not a good report. No, they didn't.

They say that two cases specifically, in July, Ahmed and Mustafa L.D., were arrested while allegedly in the advanced stages of planning a mass casualty attack in Toronto. I know that one. This was Father and Son on the verge of going up and killing Jews. And that was thwarted by the police.

There was another case where an individual named Muhammad Shazab Khan, the Pakistani citizen living in Toronto, was arrested while attempting to illegally cross into the states. He was planning to slaughter as many Jews as possible. There are other anti-Semitic or Islamist terror plots that have occurred in Canada since October 7th.

So there have been attempts in two years to kill as many Jews as possible in Canada. Yet no one's died, at least people are pretty bad with what they're trying to do. Would it take that for you to, if that happened without changing? Well, it's pretty funny because when people say there's a genocide in Gaza, their response is often like, how could it be a genocide?

There's only 60,000 dead. Millions have been killed yet. It's not a genocide. And here I am suggesting that I'd like to see evidence of one person being killed to prove that there's a threat.

I think that's reasonable.

But let me prove that that, so the first of all, so two parts, one you mentioned, have

So I don't know.

“And we do have in Canada a really important, I think a really important part of our democratic”

system, which is innocent until proven guilty.

Do you think that when right wing commentators rant and rave about the menacing threat of Islamic fundamentalism, he's making life less safe from Muslims in Canada? Do you think that the rhetoric after 9/11 and the Islamophobic commentary? Yeah, for sure. I think when, yeah, yeah, I think so.

You mentioned earlier rhetoric around the bloodthirsty Zionist entity. Yeah. We're not necessarily comfortable with it. Some of that language is, you know, can create harm, can create risk, can increase risk? Does it endanger Muslims when voices like that, profit the mouth?

And even if they don't say, go hurt your local Muslim, even if they're talking about the Osama bin Laden's and the ISIS is of the world, when they endlessly go on to humanizing and making people afraid of Islamic fundamentalism does that make life less safe for regular Muslim people living in Canada?

I think the answer is yes.

It's dangerous for us to be putting out messages that target any religion.

“And I know you're going with this and I think you're right.”

I think there was language used by the anti-Zionist community and the pro-Palestine community that crosses the line sometimes and goes, it it veers away from legitimate criticism of Israel towards language that could increase anti-Semitism. I think as part of the anti-Zionist movement or the non-Zionist movement, whatever I'm in now, you know, I'm trying to be really careful when I post on Facebook.

I'm trying to be really careful that my criticism couldn't hopefully and won't be misinterpreted as criticizing Jews or making assumptions about Jews or generalizations about Jews. We should be careful that we're not using language that could put Jewish people at risk by conflating the two.

There is, I think you'll agree, an incredible amount of rage and disgust and horror with

what Israel is doing and people are seeing images that are making them very angry and the possibility of that anger being directed towards Jews here in Canada, I think is a reasonable one that has a fair amount of substantiation of what's happened. I think it's a reasonable concern for Jews to not want that direct with them and I think that it is being directed at Jews.

Yeah, I think that's fair. So I can give you examples of you might not even know about because I'm at these rallies, like I'm proudly marching as a Jew at Propelstein rallies and I hear things sometimes and I'm like, oh, was that like, are they crossing a line there and I have to think about it and sometimes I'll go up to someone and be like, can you explain what you just

said because if there's one thing that feeds all of this bloodshed, it's demonizing the other and so that's the line that I kind of draw and I try and choose my words really carefully. I've used really strong words to criticize what Israel's doing. I try and avoid the word genocide often just because it's so triggering for people and

there's other ways to say you're killing tens of thousands of people without saying genocide. I'm resistant to the demonization of a people because I think that leads to bloodshed.

“I agree and I think that we can lose ourselves in is it anti-Semitic or is it anti-Zionist?”

It's hateful. It can be. Yeah. The frequency of hateful language which I share your understanding about because they're just words and in the face of the kind of massacre that people are seeing, they want to use

the strongest words possible. Yeah. But what I'm seeing happening is a normalization of dehumanizing language that is directed at Z's but sounds very much like what was once said about J's. You'll see language comparing Zionists to bloodthirsty animals.

Okay. Clearly not the clearly racist, anti-Semitic and the type of language that could incite violence and hatred, these are all examples of language that amyping and is not just problematic, but is a form of hate crime. Okay.

You are saying that you take pains in your language to avoid dehumanizing and dehumanizing language and to make distinctions because we agreed that the rage to Israel, the anger. Yeah. Sometimes the hate towards Israel, sometimes does get misdirected towards Jews, that that does happen.

And we don't want that to happen. Yes. And in other cases it gets appropriately directed at Jewish institutions, but Jews for being

Well let's take a step back.

Because a lot of these attacks that have happened recently have been at events that are explicitly Zionist, for example. Let's leave those out of the equation. Okay. And let's just talk about the Manchester, synagogue murders.

Let's talk about the Jewish dad who is beating. Let me be devil's advocate because it is interesting. What was the real?

“What was the symbol in front of the synagogue and what's the flag of Israel?”

We have gone out of our way as a people to say, we are Israel. So it does, I think. So are you arguing now that any synagogue within Israeli flag is an appropriate political target? But that's okay.

For what?

For a shooting no, for having a demonstration, maybe I'm not sure.

Just for being a synagogue with an Israeli flag. It might be an appropriate -- or not sure this point. I think, yeah, I think anyone waving any institution that has a Israeli flag in front of it, while Israel is mass murdering people. That is a legitimate place for a non-violent protest.

Absolutely. And how many synagogues would you say the majority of synagogues have Israeli flags? Maybe all of them. I don't know. Probably nearly all of them.

Yeah.

“So if they're proudly waving the flag of a country where its leader has already been”

indicted on war crimes or whatever the term is charged with war crimes, and every international humanitarian group is accusing Israel of genocide, yeah, if you wave that flag, you might get a protest, welcome to Canada, freedom of speech, 100%. So there was 100%. Uh-huh.

You said earlier that you do see a relationship between demonizing language and violence.

And if there is a demonstrable, evidence-based account of demonizing, demonizing language, at these demonstrations, would you say that that's bringing the threat of violence to Jews at their places of worship? Yeah. And we have hate crimes and that person should be arrested for -- are they saying it

or holding a sign? Like, what's that? I've seen both. Okay. I mean, if someone's holding a sign that is racist or hateful, I mean, a police officer

can just arrest them. We should be pointing out and fighting against hateful messages at any protest. Of course. So there's a problem right now because those laws are not being enforced. And I'll tell you what I've done.

That is a problem now. Absolutely. We 100% agree on that. So March 2024, okay, a group that you are a member of in Appellan Jewish choices -- yeah, I'm a paid member of IJV.

They called for a Jewish-led protest at the Spanish and Portuguese synagogue in Montreal. Videos that emerged from the propelistine side had protest leaders from PYM and for Montreal for Palestine. Okay. And they had the microphone.

Okay. That's common. A Jewish-led events to invite Palestinian leaders to speak, including PYM. So I don't know if -- I've seen that happen in Toronto and that's inappropriate to me. What these propelistine leaders were yelling were virulently anti-Semitic.

That's problematic. They should be called out on it. They yelled at the Jews. Amisrael High will not for long, motherfuckers. Okay.

The people of Israel. So this was -- so out in front of a synagogue at an event that Jews organized. Yeah. Jews said -- it's okay. Before this, nobody had ever dared -- propriety, decency, kept people from ever taking

this angry hateful message to a synagogue where the distinction between are we protesting Israel or are we protesting Jews comes very sharply into question. And then at the end, we had Sarah Boven from IJV saying with a Tullison, saying this is not an anti-Semitic event. Okay.

“I believe that her there with her Tullison, and her Keepa, is very appreciated by people who”

do not want to be dismissed as hateful bigots who are inciting violence. The presence of Jews there helps that movement to londer itself when it's own leaders attack the Jewish community. Right. So I don't think you're going to have any problem tomorrow at the PYM event with your

Keepa. Yeah, I get it. Very coherent, train of thought. The person you're describing is vile to me and I have nothing in common with who they are and what they believe in.

I still fully support IJV for organizing that event and for inviting Palestinian speakers. I hope they don't invite that one again because his words are very racist and hateful. And I think could lead to violent acts. And I think as a Jew, I have an obligation to be organizing protests against Israel right now.

stand with Israel.

They are waving a flag that is the same emblem that is on every bomb that's being dropped

on every tank.

“Isn't there a difference between supporting Israel and supporting its war?”

Not at this point. No, absolutely not. Anti-Vietnam war demonstrators, patriotic Americans, for trying to save their country from an immoral war. They were still Americans who wave the American flag that happened to protest in the 60s

all the time. Good question. I wasn't there at the time. Like flags are weird. I don't know.

Those people vissiferously deny that they were anti-American. They said that what they were doing was as Americans, they wanted the war to stop. Right. It's possible, isn't it, to support our Israeli? Well, they say, those people say that Israel should stop because if they're not calling

for ceasefire, you're supporting a genocide.

There's no, that's binary at this point.

The Jewish community in Toronto has so much blood on their hands. I think that has consequences. People are going to be really mad at you. The Jewish community has blood on its head? Absolutely.

The Jewish community. Yeah, all the institutions are represented. No, no. Institutions are not the community. Why not?

What's the community? I didn't say Jewish people. I said the community, there were organizations at represent a community and speak on behalf of the community, including the trustee I mentioned earlier, who said the Caféo is an act of aggression.

She said, "I'm speaking on behalf of all the Jews in the whole school board. This is normal for Jews." There is a Jewish community, absolutely.

And they are almost universally homogenously monolithically, as I say the one ready, supporting

the genocide. And I say that with complete confidence and clear headedness. Say more. What should we do about them? Depends who you are.

“What should we do about these Jews with blood on their hands?”

The Jews are the Jewish community. I didn't say Jews. What is the distinction? Huge. The Jewish community is organized into institutions.

No, you're talking about organizations. A community is what you and I live in. Yeah. A community is the neighborhood of the former heights, where I was born, where protesters came, because they described it not one bad apple, but the leader of that protest,

week after week, called it a Zionist infested neighborhood. I think that's vital. Well, that's where they came, because that's where you find the Jewish community, Dave. That's not the way I was using the word community. So I understand why you're angry.

Is you're tripping that as like, I didn't mean that. My interpretation isn't that good. If you feel like the protesters who are bringing a helpful demonstration, I know who that community are observing this very broke distinction that you have, that the community is a bunch of institutions.

They were taking it to a synagogue that was openly supporting a real estate event. Where are Jews Jews? In their homes, in their synagogue, in their restaurants, where are Jews, where are Jews, where are? Where is Jewish life takes place?

Jewish life? Yeah. Everywhere. We are part of a wider society.

“Nobody necessarily knows that we're Jews, what can make us afraid to be Jews?”

I'm not afraid to be a Jew. What could make us afraid if there are people outside of our synagogue screaming at us that we're going to be annihilated, could that make people afraid to be a Jew? If someone said that outside of synagogue? They did.

Yeah. I think that could make someone be afraid. What if you are much more likely to be targeted with one of the several bomb plots that are where do they get targeted towards? You said they're bomb, oh, the bomb plots.

The bomb plots. Right. That's where Jews congregate. The restaurants and synagogues. What can make Jewish life impossible, where you would be afraid to send your get out of

the house with a mug in Dovid, or to practice your religion? Is the conflation. I think it's a tough one for the Jewish community. I'm not sure. I'm trying to help you understand, maybe why so many people are so angry with you.

Oh, that's OK. And I appreciate that. Early in our time explain why I'm still very confident and firm in my views. You don't sound confident in firm because there's a lot of contradiction in what you've said today.

At times in this conversation, you have expressed, I think just a basic humanistic opinion, the demonizing and demonizing language should be avoided and fought back against and any context. And that there is an important distinction between anger and rage at Israel, the Israeli government and army, and Jews living their lives in Canada.

I should have said Jewish institutions and I apologize. Jewish institutions are a few, I was speaking as a Jew to a Jew, and of course it's a podcast why should we more careful. It's easy to get mudied up because you're saying that actually synagogues are fair game. I think most synagogues in Toronto right now are fair game for protest against the genocide.

If you're going to wave in Israeli flag and then not say a word about the genocide, yeah, you're definitely a target for a protest. My God, how would you not be? A protest that we both agree sometimes involves the humanizing language, which we both

So here's what I want to ask you about your own, as an event organizer, you have to put

a lot of effort into who gets the mic. That's like, that's a skill. Well, you have a mic.

“It sounds like some of these groups haven't done a good job.”

You have a mic, you have an audience? I do. You've said Zionism is a horrid blemish on our history. Yeah, I do believe that. You've said this is Judaism's darkest hour.

I do believe that.

We have become what we most fear.

I believe that. We have betrayed our values. Yes. I believe that. Let me ask you then, if you are someone who believes that Jews are responsible for what

you consider to be a genocide, if that's your belief, if you are somebody who is outraged living with what Israel is doing, and you want to do something about it, and you read online, a Jewish person, no less, saying that all of Judaism has lost its soul.

“Do you think that that might be compatible with doing harm against your Jewish neighbor?”

And inciting?

I think the probability is low enough that it doesn't concern me.

Completely outweighed by the lives I can save by calling out my community for actually supporting a genocide, which is what's happening. So you hope more synagogues are the targets of demonstrations that we agree will likely continue to include dehumanizing and demonizing language because, hey, how do you stop that at a protest?

Yeah, as long as they're organized with their framework based on nonviolence, and that people who are saying hateful things the microphone are taken off the microphone as they should, yes, I would like to see more protest outside of Jewish institutions. Well, let's leave it there.

“As mes was leaving, we chatted about the protest that he was planning to march in the next”

day. A protest organized by the group, Palestinian youth movement. I asked him if he knew the Palestinian youth movement had celebrated the October 7th Hamas massacre. Quite literally, they hosted a celebration of the resistance at Toronto City Hall, an uplifting

of the murders, which they held just two days after Hamas murdered over 1,200 Israelis. Hamas seemed surprised to hear this, he asked if I had any proof of this had happened, and I did, and I sent it to him, and then he asked me for some time to think about it. Nine days later, he sent me a long email. He said that he was okay with Palestinian youth movements celebration of October 7th. He wrote that, in general, I consider Palestinian resistance, including armed resistance, to be kosher.

He went on to clarify that he does not support acts of terrorism against civilians. He told me the finding out that Palestinian youth movement had expressed support for Hamas did not stop him from marching with him. He said that he did so proudly, and that at the demonstration he felt surrounded by love and courage. He said that he was on the lookout for anti-Semitism and saw none at the march itself. But at the intersection of young and undies, the same intersection were Palestine youth movement, had called on protesters to assemble.

There was a group of demonstrators, with a megaphone yelling, "Jews run the banks, Jews run the media, Jews run the world." To me, these racists had nothing to do with his cause. They did not represent the anti-Sionist movement. So who does? I have been speaking on behalf of this group, and I can speak for a large number of people that show up at these pro-Palestine demonstrations. There are a lot of claims that are made about us that are not true.

We're not here to promote racism, globalize the antifodder. Yes, I 100% believe in that statement. That's on our next episode. This series was made possible by the generous support of the Bissel Family Foundation, George Berger, Dan Dubo, Gideon Hayden, Daniel Klass, Norman Levine, Nanette Oken, Leslie Scanlon, Marjorie Skolnick, and Lee Zentner.

Thanks to them and many others, we've finished making these episodes. But now they need to be heard by many more people. We think that the stories and voices that you heard on this podcast have the power to make people reconsider their words and their actions. To think about how their neighbors are being harmed, and to change the course that we are all currently on. We want what is happening here to reach an audience of younger listeners, and not just Jewish ones. We want to take its message to platforms like TikTok and YouTube, where many people are otherwise being served a constant stream of divisive and hateful content about Jews.

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