#4 Inside the Antizionist Movement

neighborhoods that border Bathurst Street.

“For North to South Bathurst Street is over 50 kilometers long, it's been called the longest”

Jewish neighborhood in the world, but that's not quite right. Bathurst is actually a string of Jewish neighborhoods, acidic, safaric, orthodox, reform. These are the neighborhoods where famous Canadian Jews grew up, like Drake and Lorne Michaels, as well as Joe Schuster, the co-creator of Superman, Soviet Jews who came here as refusenix in the '80s, migrated over the decades from sardine packed high-rise apartments

at Bathurst in Steele's to leafy Jewish suburbs around Bathurst and Finch, then sometimes to grand homes at Bathurst in Eglinton. There are over 30 synagogues on or near Bathurst Street, there are multiple Jewish community

“centers, there are Jewish retirement homes, Bathurst is the most Jewish street in Canada.”

And it's the street where anti-Zionists gather for angry protests weekend after weekend.

They always come to the same spot, right at the epicenter of Jewish life in Toronto, the

corner of Bathurst and Shepard. They're being over 40 of these demonstrations, which occupy an intersection that thousands of Toronto Jews cross on their way to their homes, to their schools, to public transit. Jewish families who live nearby can often hear the chanting from inside their homes. Bathurst Street is not just a focal point for anti-Zionist protest in Canada, it's also become a focal point for anti-Jewish crime. Earlier in this series, you heard about a Jewish

girl's school that was shot at three times. You heard from a woman who was assaulted on

“her way home from a synagogue. You heard about bomb threats and bomb plots, a significant”

chunk of those incidents happened on or near Bathurst. Just normal now, it stopped making

the news, each time the windows of a synagogue or Jewish business get smashed. This community is being put at risk by these people who raise that flag, their animalistic, criminalistic behaviors will come out. They're putting the community at risk. That's Navid Bahadur. He's not talking about the anti-Zionist protesters. He's talking about the pro-Israel demonstrators who've also held weekly protests at the very same intersection.

The police relegated the pro-Israel crowd to the west side and the anti-Zionists to the east side of Bathurst Street. This community is being put at risk by these people who raised that flag, supporting the passing Holocaust. Navid is saying that by waving the Israeli flag, it's the pro-Israel crowd who are endangering Toronto Jews, who live near Bathurst Street. The people think anti-Zionist protesters are a joke, but the pro-Israel defenders are a

country. I see for themselves the rest of our families. We want protesters to find somewhere else together. We want the anti-Israel protesters to stay away. There's no embassy here. There's no there's no consulates here. There's no government buildings here. There's no city squares here. This is a residential neighborhood and we want you to stop coming up here and harassing the Jewish community. Navid Bahadur is an organizer of the weekly anti-Zionist protest. The distinction

that you heard him make earlier between the pro-Israel protesters, who he called animalistic, and the surrounding Jewish community, who he expressed concern for, will sometimes that distinction gets a bit blurry. You might see a Zionist as a doctor, a lawyer, they might be, they're all over us, all around us. June 9th, you'll see this wild animalistic behavior by them. A lot of police are going to be there. We'll be safe from them and show up. Just show up. You'll see some savages

live in action. We know what that means. One Zionist complain, it's a rat pack. We will show the Palestinian flag on this overpass because it's in a Zionist-adfested area. In other remarks, Navid accused Zionists of trying to kill Christ. I wanted clarity as to exactly who Navid is organizing these protests to protest against. I was able to get a hold of his cell number and I texted him an invitation for an interview. I told him that I wasn't looking for a debate or an argument.

Then I wanted to ask him about his thoughts and his actions and have him clarify in his own words

would love to speak with me. But he also said that he's been targeted by Zionists with death threats

and that he can't do an interview due to tensions within his family. But he said that there was someone else who could speak for his group. So my name is Moez. Moez Zaman. lately I have been speaking a lot on behalf of this group. There is some kind of leadership.

“There are people that we defer to to make some of the important decisions and then those decisions”

get handed down to us. We have a charter and there is a core group of people. We would take our directive from people like Navid. I reached out to Moez and he joined me in our Toronto studio. And the rest of today's episode is dedicated to my conversation with him. There are a lot of claims that are made about us that are not true. We are not the people that are being portrayed in news organizations that are trying to put us in a bad light.

There does seem to be a difficulty in the discourse around people say, "Well, they're obviously standing because they believe this." Yeah. And then we'll know that's not what we believe. Well, that's not what the sign means. Yeah. Why not just ask? Exactly. And I should have started by thanking you for asking me to come on because I do believe that people like us although we disagree on a number of topics, a number of fundamental topics. It is important for

us to have a type of a dialogue, especially like to be very frank with you. There are people out there that have made it their mission to expose what they call antisemitism and they do deliberately misrepresent what we say and what we're about. I can't misrepresent it or represented if I don't understand it. Yeah. So let me try to understand it. Can I go through some things that I've seen or heard at the demonstrations and I might think if they mean one thing but I just want to hear. Absolutely.

What do you think they mean? What do they mean to you? Yeah. Okay. What about this one? Globalize the Antifoto. Yes. I 100% believe in that statement. Globalize the Antifoto.

“So what is Antifoto? You have to understand what Antifoto means. Some people will hear this term and they”

say, "Oh, it means kill all the Jews." Right? That's absolutely not what it means. Antifoto has meant armed resistance. Absolutely. When you agree with Globalize the Antifoto, do you agree that armed resistance in support of Palestine should be globalized? I believe in the legality of the armed resistance against occupation. That doesn't mean I advocate for me and my

friends at Bathurst and Shepherd to pick up a second hand oozy and go crazy. Absolutely not.

That's not what we're about. There are people who have interpreted Globalize the Antifoto to mean that the violence should not be constrained Israel, that there should be an armed and violent response around the world. There are people who believe that. And who would that violence be directed to? Jewish civilians walking up and down Bathurst mining their own business. If that's if there are people that are saying that, then that's problematic 100%. For this in a lot of demonstrations,

go back to Europe. What does that mean to you? So when people say go back to Europe, what they're saying is that Israelis who live in Israel are not indigenous to that part of the world, they are largely Ashkenazi Jews from Central and Eastern Europe and they're saying go back to Europe. I'm not a big fan of these types of statements. Oftentimes I feel that they do more harm

“to our movement than good, but you have to understand that in the course of political activism,”

there will always be people that are naturally going to get caught up with the hype and say things

and you know, it happens on both sides and it's not something that I personally focus on. Leaving aside the question of indigenousity and the question of the makeup of the demographics of Israel, Ashkenazi versus Sephardic Jews Jews from Arab countries and other places. Do you know why Jews came from Europe to Israel Palestine? If you want me to say it was largely a product of the Holocaust, I think that's the answer you're looking for. I'm not looking for any particular ask.

Okay. I shouldn't, I want to know what you. I shouldn't assume that. You're right. My apologies. Have you heard this said in Canada? I've heard it said to Jewish people in Canada, what do you make of that? What does it mean when it's said here to a Jewish person? Well, again, it's a, it's a trope of sorts. I mean, like I said, political activists are often times very emotional. They don't speak based on reason or logic or

political activism to some extent. If you don't mind me asking, are you, were you born in Canada?

I was not. What were you born? I was born in Iran. And Iran, if I heard someone say to you, yeah, go back to Iran. Yes. I would immediately identify that as a racist statement. Yes. Would you agree? Yeah. There's definitely an element of racism and undertones at the very least to statements like that. I would agree with you on that. Absolutely. I've heard this one as well. Fake Jew. Hmm. So this one I can, I can speak to a little bit more. So what people mean when

they say fake Jew is that if you want to be a Jew, you have to practice Judaism. You have to follow

the Torah. You have to follow the ten commandments that were given to Moses on Mount Sinai.

“You have to follow the 613, I think, in total commandments. And if you don't do that,”

then you're not actually a Jew according to the older conventional definition, which was based on religious identity, not ethnicity or a nationality until the Zionist movement started to spring up. Okay. I appreciate that you're explaining your understanding of what other people mean when they say fake Jew. I must tell you that this notion that before Zionism Jewishness was only defined by religious observance alone and not by peoplehood or or ethnicity or culture, that is a historical,

that is, that's inaccurate. But I have heard this lawbed at pro-Israel demonstrators,

you're a fake Jew, you're not even a real Jew. I didn't know what that meant in the context of pro-Palestine versus pro-Israel. Yeah, maybe some people, again, it's the nature of political activists,

“especially when they're in their early to mid-20s. You know, how smart were you as a 22-year-old?”

I was a bit of an airhead. So this is what I understand to be the meaning of fake Jew. But if you're asking me, do political activists say these phrases as a derogatory statement against people protesting on the other side? Yeah, probably. But like I said, it's the nature of political activism. This is one, from you, here's a picture of you and your kid and you haven't assigned, and there's the inverted red triangle. What is the inverted red triangle mean to you?

So the inverted red triangle is used by the armed resistance as a symbol against Israeli soldiers in occupied Palestine. What does it mean? That's symbol when they use it. It's a symbol of violence. It means it means Israeli soldiers, people actively serving in the IDF, or legitimate targets of the Palestinian resistance, which they are. It identifies the target. Yes, absolutely. What is a nonviolent use of that triangle? Well, I have the triangles pointing over me and my

three-year-old. So it definitely doesn't mean we self-inflicted violence. I consider myself to be a part of the resistance. That doesn't mean I have any violent intent. I definitely do not, and I hope I hope that my daughter will grow up with the morals and the ethics that will motivate her to fight on behalf of people who are being oppressed. So yeah, so that that is the intention behind that and I would be honored and proud if my daughter were to grow up to become part of the resistance.

This is a picture of you and there's a chair behind you. Yes. To replicate the chair where the Hamas leader, Yahya Sinwar was seen in that drone. Yeah, there's like red blood paint on the chair. So to be fair, I happen to be standing in front of the chair. I'm not posing with the chair. That's so I wouldn't say that's a picture of me with the chair. That's a picture of me in the proximity of the chair by pure coincidence. So what does that chair mean? Would it be correct to see this as a

glorification and a statement of support for Sinwar and of Hamas? I would say you have a very good case of making that. So just on a personal level, I had no role in that whole thing. So I can't speak to that. Okay. The sky here is making a gesture. Yes. What is that gesture? Sure. It looks like a sigheile. And I don't know this guy. It saddens me when people speak on the basis of emotion

“and they discredit the very noble cause that we're fighting for. Would you agree with this statement?”

Hamas is a legitimate part of the resistance. You know, I can't answer this because I feel like it's a loaded question. A lot of people have said these are pro Hamas demonstrated. Yes. And so I

these are pro Hamas demonstrations. This is being said by uneducated people that have an agenda,

“but it's simply not true. By asking questions like, do you condemn October to 7 or do you condemn”

Hamas? I'm not asking anything. No, I understand. I'm asking what you support. What I'm asking you what you believe in. Yes. Seems like a legitimate question to simply ask you, do you consider Hamas to be legitimate? Are you there as you stand in front of a chair that symbolizes and glorifies Sinwar and Hamas? I would say they are a legitimate part. Israel will be annihilated. Yes. If I were to say Israel will be annihilated, what I'm referring to is the Zionist

Ethno State, which has colonialism and ethnic cleansing as its twin pillars. That doesn't mean drive the Jews into the sea. I can speak for for myself and I can speak for a large number of people that show up at these pro Palestine demonstrations. The overwhelming majority of people do not have

“these negative views of Jews or a anti-Semitic bone in their body.”

As you know, there's not a lot of Jewish people. Not a lot of Jewish people in the world, not a lot of Jewish people in Canada. They're very concentrated in which neighborhoods they live in. And Batherson Shepherd is probably the epicenter. And Batherson is also being where a lot of anti-Semitic crime has taken place since October 7th. Batherson Shepherd, where you demonstrate every weekend, is just a few minutes from a school. It's been shot at three times.

Basically, I'm sure it has been shot at on three separate occasions. It's not far from Batherson

Wilson where a school bus was torched that services a Jewish school. Batherson Wilson is also where a rest were made for people making death threats against Jews. Batherson Lawrence, a guy came to a Jewish school and told the kids there he'd kill all the Jews and then he'd gone to a fight with a staff member, a physical fight. Batherson Street and Flemengo guys been convicted for assaulting Jewish congregants coming out of a synagogue. So it's been going on all over Canada,

but Batherson Street is the community that you go to every weekend. Gotcha. Yeah. Is a community that has been targeted? Again and again and again. Yes. Why do you go to this community? Um, any act of violence towards Jewish people on Bathurst should be condemned and the people that do this kind of stuff should be criminally prosecuted. In some of the, I didn't know all these instances that you cited, the ones that I didn't know of,

the offenders were not pro-Palestinian demonstrators. They were not Muslims. They were not Arabs. In the ones that I know of. Amir Avahi Azar was charged with 29 criminal counts for a hate crime spree attacking to five Toronto Synagogues. Yes. So that definitely sounds like someone that might look like me. Yes. Muhammad Ilias Akodad 19-year-old charged with fire bombing a Montreal area synagogue in December. So you know. Okay. No. You gave me examples. Yeah.

100 percent. I just wasn't aware of those examples. But my question was not. No, but because you

presented it in a certain context. My context was not to suggest that the members of your demonstration are committing these crimes. Yeah. I have no idea. Yeah. You're just referring to the fact that anti-Semitic attacks have been taking place and we're demonstrating in the neighborhood in the proximity of those acts. You're going to a neighborhood where a targeted minority lives that is being repeatedly targeted with gunshots at children's schools. Yes. And things like that.

“And that is where you are choosing to demonstrate. And I believe it's about a 22-minute drive”

from the part of town that you're coming from to Batherson Shepherd. It's 26 minutes to these really consulate. Why are you protesting in a neighborhood where so many Jewish people live? No. Perfectly valid questions. If you wish to be protesting is real. Yes. So thank you for the question. So yeah, just to not just sound like a broken record, but just to clarify the perpetrators of those acts of violence against Jews on Bathurst are not connected to me and my friends. As

far as we know, so regardless of who's doing it, it's wrong, obviously. I would also be very skeptical about some of these anti-Semitic attacks because there are documented cases of Jewish businesses that have been targeted. And then police have clarified that it was made up. In some

example was in Winnipeg, I believe you can Google it. Winnipeg Jewish business that's targeted. And

it was the business owners themselves. I know that story and you're corrected. It's the most recent example. It's also the only example of that happening in Canada and it happened in 2019. I couldn't find any other reported case of Jews faking an anti-Semitic attack here in Canada. Okay, there are, for instance, examples of people sabotaging pro Palestine demonstrations and doing things like sighiles for the purpose of causing a problem. So I don't believe that Hamud who we saw making a sighile.

Not him. Not him. I'm talking about other instances. But he has sensed by the way in terms of connections to the people who show up your demonstration. He has since posted this video in front of Anne Frank

“public school. Yes, I saw that. Making, I guess, what would you, how would you describe this expression?”

He's, I don't look like a tough guy, I guess, a very menacing expression. Yeah, I don't think he's very intimidating looking. I wouldn't be scared of such a guy, but I don't like this guy. I don't associate

with him. I've never personally met him. I guess what I'm saying here is that we have a guy who is

thrown a sighile up at, I want to do demonstrations. And now, and he's also being removed by police from a Jewish community center. And now here is in front of the Anne Frank public school. Yes. Making political statements against Israel, while wearing a symbol of solidarity with Palestinians. So what this has to do with it with a kid's public school? Can you understand why this would make people very uncomfortable? 100% yeah. And like I said before, there are a lot of people

that do a lot of stupid harmful things to our movement. The reason why I, and I'll get to your question about why do we specifically show up at, sorry, Bathurst Institute? The reason why I

show up anywhere, anywhere at all, is because when I see the videos of children that are being

bombed and starved and having limbs amputated, I see the face of my own three-year-old.

“That's why I show up to be very real. But what is your understanding? Yeah, so I will get to that point.”

That's the reason why this movement exists to begin with. It is important to clarify that even before we discuss why they are specifically, we have to know what we're doing. That's why we're there. Now, why do we show up at Bathurst Institute? Or why do we show up at a synagogue? Or why do we show up to places where Jews are known to be, right? Yes. That's what you're asking. Yes. So it's a valid question. Number one, the reason why we show up, can I, can I also talk about the

synagogues? Because I think that's also relevant. Because you've also demonstrated a synagogues. Yes, two synagogues. So the point is not that it's a synagogue. So for instance, we demonstrated at the synagogue, Bates synagogue, at Bathurst and Clark Street in Thornhill. So this synagogue was hosting an event with Israeli real estate and law firms selling land in occupied Palestinian territory. I have the brochure on my phone. So when we show up at the synagogue, it's not because I want to

disturb Jewish people who are trying to have solemn religious observances. Absolutely not. I respect Judaism as a religion. I respect Jewish people that are practicing Judaism that go to the synagogue to read the Torah or whatever it is that they do in there. I have absolutely no problem with that. The reason why we showed up at the synagogue specifically is because of that event that was taking place. And what about Bathurst and Shepherd? And at Bathurst and Shepherd, we have

a group of people that are gathering there every Sunday to celebrate what I consider to be a Holocaust in the 21st century. So we are there in a counter-demonstration against that type of support for a fascist ideology. Were you presence at the demonstrations on the bridge? For one an avenue. I was there once at least. There was no pro-Israel protest there. I just showed up. So I can't speak to why he picked that area, but you did ask me about

Bathurst and Shepherd and I did kind of elaborate as to because it's a question that we're asked. Why are you at a synagogue as an example? I heard because they have this real estate event. Not because it was a synagogue. Now we could have a conversation about every church in Mosque has a number of events. People mourn there. People get married there. People do religious observance and then people make political speeches. But in many other cases, we don't. Well, don't

“demonstrate churches or mosques. Here's the thing. If a mosque has an event to celebrate ISIS,”

I will tell the cops and you guys should all show up and I will be there. I will be there.

your point of view. Exactly. I understand. I don't expect you to agree with what I'm saying.

“When it comes to Bathurst and Shepherd, you're saying you're there because that's where people are”

celebrating Israel. Exactly. The thing that I most wanted to speak with you about is that the majority of the Jewish people who live in that neighborhood don't come to those demonstrations. Yes, that's right. They just live there. Yeah. And this is a community that has been targeted. Their businesses have been targeted. Their children's schools have been targeted. Yes.

What you are saying to the everyday Jews who live in that neighborhood who do not show up to the pro Israel protest. If I understand everything you've told me today is yes, you have been targeted. It's awful. It shouldn't happen. The police should stop it. And yes, this demonstration may include a red triangle which is used to point out targets for violence. It's also a demonstration that includes Hamas glorification, which is what we both agreed that chair represents.

It is also a demonstration in which a guy is throwing up a sea of hail. But Jewish citizens of Toronto, this is not an anti-Semitic demonstration.

So I disagree with the way you set that up for a number of reasons. The first of which is

when it comes to the red triangle, this is a symbol that is directed against the Israeli armed force. I've had, I've had that red triangle placed above my head on social media posts. I knew what it meant. Who did that? Who did that? A pro-Palestinian. Well, whoever did that is a donkey. I mean, are you going to pick up a weapon and put a bullet in a child's head? Absolutely not. It doesn't make it less discerning to face what looked to me like a death threat. When you are on the

receiving end of the Bricks through synagogue windows, the gunshots at schools, the arson's of businesses. And then there are people in your neighborhood using iconography that glorifies Hamas,

throwing up a Nazi salute. You are asking for people to make distinctions that I'm not sure

“it's reasonable to ask people to make. Well, I think it's reasonable for people to feel”

menist and unsafe when that happens in their neighborhood. I understand that point. You're saying, I am participating in a demonstration. And while I personally may not support Hamas and anti-Semitism, there are people present who do that. And therefore it's reasonable for the Jewish community to feel threatened by everybody because it's hard for them to make that distinction. That's one thing that you're telling me. But then you're telling me that when you ask the

pro-zionist people, well, do you support the killing of children and they say, no, that's not why we're there. We're there because we support the hostages and we support peace and democracy and all that stuff. And you're asking me to not make a distinction because... No, I agree completely. I think that if you were to say, how am I supposed to know which of you is just there because you care about your relative who's a hostage and which of you is here because you think that what is happening

in Gaza is just... I can't make that distinction. It all looks like support for the Israeli. I would say that's reasonable. Yes. I would say that that's a reasonable thing. So similarly,

“I think that I think that to imagine the people who live in that neighborhood, they shouldn't feel”

menist or unsafe or terrorized by this because they should be able to tell that even though you're there in front of this in our seat, you don't support Hamas. That might be an unreasonable expectation. So let's let's let's I take your point on that. So what I would propose is and what we have proposed since the beginning is end both demonstrations. End the pro is real pro IDF pro holocaust pro fascism demonstration on the west of Bathurst and end the pro seemingly pro Hamas demonstration

on the east of Bathurst and both of them and then nobody will feel terrorized. So you isn't that fair? You would no longer demonstrate there if they would face thoughts. That stops on the west of Bathurst we're gone. That's the whole point. That's the reason why we're there at Bathurst and Shepherd as a counter demonstration. But what is that achieve as opposed to demonstrating Israel at the consulate? How does it help Palestine and the Palestinian cause? Are you demonstrating against

So here's the thing, the nature of political activism is that you don't see the effect of your

“actions right away and it's very discouraging and all political activists have to deal with this”

challenge. Why are we going there? By me showing up at Bathurst and Shepherd, how will it stop children whose limbs are being amputated without anesthesia? The honest answer is it won't stop it. But the other question, that's a different question. Whether or not there's a point in demonstrating at all, all around the world? Yes. Is one question? Yes. And I understand the reason why, perhaps if there is enough of a cacophony around the world and there's enough condemnation of Israel

maybe will have an effect. That's not the question I'm asking. I'm asking why are you demonstrating

at Bathurst and Shepherd as a countermeasure to supporters of Israel? It almost feels like your target is your neighbor as opposed to a foreign state. I understand how it can seem that way. I would say no. Personally, I don't care about the individuals who show up on the west of Bathurst, the prosionist camp. I'm not interested in any of them and I'm not interested in them as a collective. The reason why we show up is because we're trying to make a point that if you're going to

come out here to celebrate a genocide, we're going to come out here to express our opposition to that kind of a thing happening. And if that has an impact on the community, that's not your fault. If it has an impact in what sense, you mean that Jews that live in the proximity of that area will feel threatened by our presence over there? Well, of course they do. Well, I would say I would say it's not directed against the Jews of that community, but you're pointing out

and you're right that they have no way of distinguishing between what I'm telling you right now and for instance, some of the iconography and the symbols that are physically present. And I understand if that's the point, if I understand you correctly, I get that 100%. So my solution to that

“would be end both demonstrations. I guess I'll ask you finally, you have been, I think, generous in”

your interpretation or an analysis of activists becoming too passionate, maybe being a bit young and stupid, saying things that I think we agree across the line. And just for clarity, we're not only talking about younger, air-headed members who lose control of their emotions. Naveed is an older man who you have identified as a leader, who has said that tropes of the blood libel that Jews killed Christ, they're cursed to people. To the question of, is this

movement about what Israel is doing or is this an anti-Jewish hate movement? We've seen many instances of anti-Jewish hate, which I accept, you do not share those feelings. But my question to you is, have you at any point in these demonstrations, which are occurring on a weekly basis? Yeah. Said to a person who is putting up a Nazi salute, get out of here and don't come back, or who has brought a chair that does glorify Hamas. I don't want them calling us pro-Hamas,

get this out of here. I don't want any photographs from you in front of it. When you find out that Naveed brings up tropes of Jewish Christ killers, I don't want to be thought of as an anti-Semite, get the hell out of here. Because at a certain point, if you are around anti-Semites and Jew haters, then that is what your movement is. Understood. So about the, I know this is not the topic you're

“trying to get at, but about the same Christ killers. I mean, are you familiar with the Gospels?”

I don't care about the Bible. Yeah, so neither, I don't believe in the Bible, but I don't believe in the historicity of the Bible as such, but the question of reducing the Roman Empire involved in the so-called crucifixion of Christ. I don't even believe that there was a crucifixion. Who cares about any of this? We live here together. Yeah. Then what's in the city? Yeah. Right. I care much more about the people who live in the city and how we treat each other. Yeah, absolutely. That thing's happening in history,

or frankly, in the parts of the world that we have very little control over. No, no, understood. I

accept that 100% right about that. One thing I will say is the answer is yes. Yes, we do, we do

try our best to kick them out. It's a public space. So we can't stop anybody from coming. There was someone that showed up at Bathurst and Shepard and this guy is a radical anti-Semite extremist

We do not want him and apparently he has a record. I have called out people in our group

who said things that could definitely be construed as anti-Semitic. And I said, look, dude, we're here against racism. We're not here to promote racism. I have absolutely no animosity towards Jewish people and we have to make it clear that we are here not to support. I'm not here because I'm pro-Palestinian. I hate that term. I'm here because I'm pro-human being. It's just a pro-human cause. That's all it is. Now what you're telling me is there are at the

very least unintended consequences. And I agree with you. I understand what you're saying. If members of that community feel threatened, that's not what I'm there for.

I just want to interrupt the notion of a feeling threatened. If your kid's school had gunshots

fired at it on three separate occasions, I think you have been threatened.

“No, no, absolutely, but that's why I asked you who's guilty of doing that. Is it people”

from our movement? Whether or not that person was standing at your demonstration or not, I don't think is really important. If you are a person who values the sanctity of human life and the safety and security of your neighbors, then you can have a compassionate response to people. Understood. We've had their kid's school shot at by men and strangers in the middle of the video. So what you're saying is members of the Jewish community in and around Bathurst and Shepherd

have been threatened. Now let's say the perpetrators of those acts of violence had nothing to do

with our movement. As far as we know, unless you can tell me someone who was convicted of shooting up that private Jewish school was a pro-Palestinian until that type of information and even whether or not that's the case. That has happened. But I understand your counterpoint that when you introduce these types of symbols into it, it's not unreasonable to to surmise that some do just walking his baby down the street on Bathurst might obviously associate those two things.

“That's your point if I understand that's pretty much it. There have been I think it's at this”

point seven credible mass casualty plots that have been thwarted by the cops. There was one in Ottawa where there was a pro-Israel demonstration. They arrested a kid who had an explosive device who was plotting to blow it up and then you know the oddidis, not far from your demonstration and they were in a hotel room filming a video about how they were going to go kill a bunch of Jews also on that Bathurst corridor. That's very disappointing. It's a very hard thing to determine

the relationship between you know, you've got legitimate demonstrations, you've got demonstrations across the line, then you've got people throwing rocks into windows. Then you've got people who actually are going to, so when somebody says, I appreciate that to you, globalizing into Fata is a ideological concept to other people. Understand, let's go do something. Yeah, no, that that makes sense. I can't I can't push back on you with that. If some people associated that way or a lot of people associated

that way based on these precedents that you're referring to, that's understandable. I can't say that's an unreasonable thing to do. My only point would be that's not enough of a reason to tell me to

“stop doing what I'm doing because what I'm doing is also extremely important. If I were in your”

shoes, I guess, I would feel like I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that if one of these violent maniacs actually does kill a bunch of Jews in Canada, nobody can connect that to me. If you don't want to be confused with an anti-Semite, it's not good to be standing next to a guy who's throwing up a Nazi solution, you know? It's a fair point. The guy with the sigile that 's a bad wound that's far beyond the pale. Oh, come back to Europe. That's not enough of a reason

to tell me to stop demonstrating. You're asking me to be silent because of the unintended consequences that relate to something else that happened that has nothing to do with me. No. That's a, that's a big ask. No, I'm not asking you to do that at all. I guess I'm sorry. I don't mean you personally are telling me that. I'm saying that that's the position that you're putting on the table and asking me to address. Not really. No. Well, you did say that. You said these people feel threatened. Don't

you think that the Yaxia Sinwar Chair and all that stuff is going to fuel the flames. I used the expression fuel the flames, not you of that feeling of insecurity. That is what you said. What I'm asking you is, does their safety and security matter? Absolutely, matters. In which case is this the appropriate place for a demonstration like this? And then the other thing that I've

you do not want to be confused with a racist, juhator. What is the level of responsibility you have

to distinguish yourself from those people? Absolutely. And you have accepted, there is some level where you will say we don't want you here and we're calling the question. Yes. So again, it's a, it's a public space. Now, somebody decides to show up with a Nazi flag. I can't tackle him to the ground and burn that flag, even if I would like to. I can't do that, right? What we can do is tell

“the cops, this is incitement and that person can be arrested and they probably will be, right?”

So there's only so much control that we have in this type of situation, given the nature of what's taking place. And the same thing can be true about the west of Bathurst. There are some unsavory

things that have happened on that side, which we haven't discussed. They're not going to somebody

else's neighborhood. Again, if someone holds a picture of a terrorist named Baruch Goldstein, it doesn't become less offensive because it's a Jewish neighborhood than if you were to do it in a Muslim neighborhood, right? Yeah, but fewer Muslim kids and elderly people are going to have to walk past that and wonder if they're okay if these people mean them aren't. Okay, I'll, I'll, I'll give you that. Yes, our intention in organizing these counter demonstrations at Bathurst and Shepherd

“has always been to shut down the demonstration on the west of Bathurst. As I go on, not very well.”

Yeah, Moe is thank you very much. Thank you. This past October, following the release of the last 20 living hostages by Hamas, the pro-Israel demonstrators gathered at Bathurst and Shepherd one last time to celebrate. The next week, the anti-azionist protesters did in fact come back. Only this time, they held their demonstration on both sides of Bathurst Street. They had new signs made for the

occasion, which read, "Even this corner was not promised to them three thousand years ago." The next weekend, once again, there were no pro-Israel demonstrators left at Bathurst and Shepherd for the anti-azionists to direct their chance to. And so they marched onto a nearby residential street and aimed their remarks at the Jews who lived there. Right at their doorsteps.

“You don't own this. This is not occupied by Palestine, okay? Yeah. You teach your kids how to kill babies?”

Yeah, as ionists? Zionists? Yeah. Was this part of 50 thousand years ago? Guys, guys, I have a question. What do you call as Zionists Karen? I have no idea what other foreign countries they have. It's been over two years yet. It's been loud. It's good to can sleep during the day. We have nothing to do with whatever your issue is on. Okay. That attitude is only going to ensure I stay here all night.

There is no equivalent of this in any American city. No American Jewish neighborhood,

or anti-azionists congregate to protest every week. So maybe it's time to finally answer the question.

Why here? Why are the slurs and the threats and the crimes so much worse in Canada than in just about any other Western nation? That's on our next episode. [Music] This series was made possible by the generous support of the Bissel family foundation, George Berger, Dan Dubo, Gideon Hayden, Daniel Class, Norman Levine,

Nanette Oken, Leslie Scanlan, Marjorie Skolnick, and Lee Zentner. Thanks to them and many others we've finished making these episodes. But now they need to be heard. By many more people. We think that the stories and voices that you heard on this podcast have the power to make people reconsider their words and their actions. To think about how their neighbors are being harmed and to change the course that we are all currently on. We want what

is happening here to reach an audience of younger listeners and not just Jewish ones. We want to take its message to platforms like TikTok and YouTube, where many people are otherwise being served a constant stream of divisive and hateful content about Jews. Lastly, we want to take this series to universities and colleges across the country for town hall discussions about how to make campuses safe again for Jews. To do any of that,

receipt through our project partner, the Canadian Jewish News, a registered journalism organization

“with the CRA. Contributing is easy. Just email me personally at [email protected].”

I spell my name, [email protected]. I will take you through it. What is happening here is a

co-production of Canada Land Podcasts and the Canadian Jewish News. This episode was written and

“reported by me, jessie Brown. Research and story editing by Kate Minsky, original music by so-called.”

Sound design, mixing, and mastering by Caleb Thompson. Editorial input from Michael Freeman.

This episode relied on video documentation of the protests at Bathurst and Shepherd,

“filmed by many sources, but none more than Korean Masad and her videographer Lee.”

Special thanks to them and to Jonathan Rothman of the CJN. We've put links to statistics and sources cited in today's episode in the show notes. Thank you to Stephen Marsh, Jonathan Rothman, Mark Musselman, and the entire team here at Canada Land for their input and their support. To become a Canada Land supporter, go to Canadaland.com/joined. Thank you for listening.