What if Dating Isn't For Me?

So I grew up kind of expecting that I was going to find the perfect man someday and get married and have kids and that then my life would be perfect and I would be happy and that's all I would ever need. And I've been with men that I love but I don't think I've ever been in a relationship that made me feel happier or more fulfilled than I do when I'm single.

I felt like my partners were always trying to get me to do things that I didn't want to do or to live my life in ways that I didn't want to.

“And I think partly that's because I'm pretty introverted and I'm also kind of a perfectionist and neither of those things is bad.”

Like I don't dislike those things about myself, but I think they make it very easy for me to feel like I'm being pushed and pulled in a direction that I don't want to go. So I've been kind of questioning whether even being in a relationship at all is really the right thing for me. And the problem is that I'm just worried that I'm going to end up alone in my old age. You know, right now I have my parents close by and I'm very open to the idea of having a child by myself.

But once I get older and my parents are gone and my kid moves away maybe like I don't want to be alone with no family, but I also just feel so much more myself when I'm single.

So I'm trying to figure out should I keep looking for a partner or should I just decide that I'm okay by myself. So I'm hoping that maybe you can help me with some of this. So when I sent it in, I was not seeing anyone and then about a week later actually I met someone so I've been seeing him for a couple months now. So I'm just in a little bit of a different place than I was at that point.

Okay, so we can go to where you were and we can go to where you are.

“And would you like to begin? Where should we begin? I don't know. I think maybe maybe both. I guess I feel sometimes like a switch flips a little bit when I'm single versus when I'm in a relationship.”

Give me the switch and give me the flip. Like when I'm just me, I can be who I want to be. And I get to decide how things are and when I'm seeing someone, I feel like you know unintentionally not like I'm trying to do this, but I just get sort of sucked in to that person and I feel like everything becomes about. Being the relationship going at all costs and I feel meaty in a way that I don't feel when I'm by myself and you know I've been trying to be more aware of that this time and of course correct a little bit but I still just feel like you know when I'm around this person that I'm seeing I'm just totally absorbed by that and I don't really feel like I'm in myself.

And then as soon as I leave I kind of like have this moment of like like waking up again. I don't know if that makes a lot of sounds fun.

“Should I tell you what I'm hearing? Sure.”

When I am by myself, I don't experience the challenge of staying connected with myself while also connecting with someone else. Yeah. When I enter a relationship, I lose the connection to myself. In fact, in order not to lose the other, I lose me. And I don't know how to experience closeness that doesn't do a way with me knowing that this doesn't come from the other person. Yeah. No, does it come from what the relationship is doing to me? It actually is a vulnerability that I bring with me to relationships.

Yeah. I added the last piece. I know you do it right though. Yes. That's true. So tell me about it. What do you know about this part of you that starts to feel anxious?

Yes. That's to be afraid that you're going to lose the relation of the other person. And so you make a zillion compromises with yourself that nobody asked for. And then of course you start to feel a kind of liberation when you're alone, which isn't really a liberation. It's primarily a liberation from this yoke and from this anxiety.

Yeah.

There's nothing really free about it because it basically is the other side.

It's the flip side of the same anxiety. In one, I hold on to the person at the exclusion of me. And in the other, I hold on to me at the exclusion of anybody else entering my orbit. Yeah. I don't think about it though. But yeah. That's sort of smile.

As I was listening to the sentence. Yeah.

So what do you know about it? Because this has happened a few times.

Yeah. You young, you 26. You're worried about being alone. At 26 to think about, I'm going to be an old lady by myself and my parents are gone. It's an interesting worry to have. But it's because you are aware of something. You know that you carry something with you.

“I think, I mean, that part of it, like I've always been prone to thinking away.”

I had like too much, you know, I think every time that I enter into a relationship, I'm immediately thinking about, you know, it's just the right person for me to marry and would he be a good dad.

And, you know, I just like build up a whole future right away.

And I think part of it is that because I do that, then if I lose the person, it's like I'm losing my future. Like I'm losing the idea of what it is going to look like. And it's scary. It's like I have to figure out my whole life all over again. I don't know. I guess the feeling anxious about, you know, like holding on tightly to the other person. I think there's part of me that just doesn't feel confident that I'm, like, good enough.

I worry a lot that I'm going to do something wrong or that, you know, I just really have to try to be adequate.

“I'm not sure I followed you. I'm not sure that I'm good enough for what?”

To stay with that day, we'll want to stay with me and therefore I turn myself into a pretzel. Yeah, try to imagine what they want me to be, which they may or may not even have asked for. Because in fact, maybe they were drawn to the me that is not trying to twist herself into. Yes. So you've had other relationships, right? How long have they lasted?

A couple of just a few months and then I was with someone for about two years. Okay. So give me a little bit of the story. You are a falling in love with me or you're drawn to me, but wait till you get to know me and you want to stay one extra hour. Yeah, I think at the beginning, like before I have feelings for the person really when I'm still just getting to know him. I have an easier time kind of staying myself and having boundaries in a healthy way.

And then it's like as soon as I start to feel attached or like I'm starting to fall in love a little bit. I just kind of switch into this, like do everything that I have to to convince them to stay. And have you ever wondered about that? Yeah. It's just like I'm aware of it. I'm very aware of it, but it's like I can't stop myself sometimes. And how have you made sense of it for yourself?

When I have no feelings for you, I'm very comfortable being in my own skin, in my own body, in my own self reflection.

“And I appreciate that you may be interested in me and I think there's a lot to be interested in.”

Yeah. But the minute I start to love you or have feelings for you, they come with an intense sense of needing you. And the love and the needs start to get confused. And the minute I start to need you, I start to think that you're not going to want me. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's all self-referential.

Yeah. So I start to think you're not going to want me because my neediness is going to push you away. Mm-hmm. Not clarify that for me. Mm-hmm.

“There's something about hearing it repeated back, right?”

Yeah, no, I mean, that's all very accurate. I don't know what would you like me to clarify for me more. I feel like you just said it perfectly. I am just identifying the sequence. Mm-hmm.

I don't know what propels the sequence. Okay.

And I don't know if you do, so we are going to excavate this together.

Mm-hmm. Right? Somehow, the minute I develop feelings for you, it comes with the fear that you're not going to want to be with me. Yeah.

Now, these two are so connected that you don't even ask yourself how come. Mm-hmm. It's as if it makes sense. It doesn't by definition. It's not a logic thing.

Mm-hmm. That because I have feelings for you, I instantly start to fear rejection fear abandonment. Well, but I mean like when you care about something that comes with a fear of losing it, right? Yes.

Yes. But that is a philosophical term. Mm-hmm. Not something that instantly makes you twist yourself. Disconnect from yourself.

Yeah. Disassociate from your own needs, feelings, wishes, experience, and mold yourself. Yeah.

“And to something that you imagine you should be.”

Yeah. That's very different from something that I, and very much believe indeed. That, of course, when you care about something, you're also experienced a fear of losing that thing. But that's not what, that doesn't mean that you therefore start to do a job on yourself.

Mm-hmm. Remake. Yeah. That means that you live with a set of complex interconnected feelings. Yeah.

Meaning that the reality of the feelings doesn't explain the extreme of the behavior. I think sometimes I've felt like I start to fall in love with someone and I just want to continue and I want to keep it. And I sort of decide that like the only way that I can guarantee that it won't fall apart is by making everything about me perfect.

Because I can't control what the other person does or feels. Right.

“Like the only thing I can control is myself.”

And so I think I just try to sort of like do everything I can on my end. Hoping that that will make up for anything that's not perfect on his end or something like that. Has it worked? No. Okay.

You just wanted to win. No. Definitely not. Because the more you do that and the more anxious you become that the first mishap. Yeah.

We lead to the ultimate cataclysm. So you put yourself in a terrible strain. Yeah. Because you say I can't control but in fact you are constantly watching. What you think is the control of the other over you.

Yeah.

I know it ends up feeling like he's controlling me but I don't think it's always.

Right. Really that. Yeah. We have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for this show comes from quote.

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And make sure you tell them we send you. ForaTravel.com/estair. Did you have any of these feelings at home? Like with my family? Yeah.

I mean, I am a psychologist, I'm going to... Yeah. I'm a psychotherapist, I ask therapeutic questions. Yes. Therapy like.

Yeah.

“Um, I think, when I was a kid, my dad was the state home parent.”

And he, you know, he spent a lot of time with us with me and my brother. And he did so much as a parent.

And he was also at the same time pretty critical.

I had very high standards and I felt like when he would be upset about something that they had done, or, you know, told me to do something different or disapproving in whatever way. The, you know, the way that it felt to me. Like, I don't know. It felt to me like you was saying you're just not good enough.

You're not worthy or not smart enough. You're not hardworking enough. That's how it landed on me. And I don't think that he was intending for it to feel that way. But when I was little, like, you know, seven or eight or something like that,

the way that I would deal with it a lot of times was he would say something to me that would make me feel like I was a terrible person. And I would, like go in my room and cry a little bit. And then like the way I would kind of pull myself out of it with space. So silly, but I would just like make a list of all the things that were wrong with me.

And decide that like the next day I was going to fix all these things. And it just felt like a way to kind of be proactive and like do something about it. You know, and try to avoid feeling like that again. So I would go to my room and I would do my dad. I would make a list that was even more exhaustive than his.

I would pick myself apart. And I would make promises to myself that I would fix every imperfection.

Yeah. And inside there were two dominant feelings. The inadequacy on my side, but also on some level the rage. And the anger towards the man. To with whom I needed to get into this elaborate ladder of self criticism.

I've never really felt angry towards, like me.

I mean, maybe it's deep down in there, but I've never really experienced. I know. I know.

“You have to experience plenty of anger, but towards yourself.”

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. If I start to make a long list of all the things I'm going to change, I'm not being super kind with myself. Yeah. What does she say?

How did she speak to herself? Do you remember? Not nice. Yeah. I mean, when I was really upset, I would just say all kinds of terrible things.

And just, I mean, even things that I didn't even really think were true. I would just say mean things to myself. Such as, you know, like in your room. I mean, that little girl is alive and well. Like, I mean, like everything from, you know, stupid and lazy and mean and like I would call myself fat.

Even though I wasn't and I knew I wasn't and that wasn't even an issue. And put my parents thought or what I thought of myself, you know, just like throw everything mean that I could think of. That makes sense. So I was angry with me. Yeah.

And when I think I'm better off alone, it's that voice. I'm angry with you for what you make me feel about me. I want nothing to do with you. Yeah. Men, partners, lifelong companions, etc.

Yeah. It's not an anger that calls them by names. But it's an anger that says, "I'd rather be alone." Yeah, it feels easier. You know?

But there's a fuck you in there. Probably. It's a good fuck you.

“But you need to be able to say it without having to deprive yourself, without having to isolate yourself as a way to disempower them.”

Yeah. So they have not such influence and control over you. You will isolate yourself from them, but it doesn't solve anything. It's just the other side of I'm angry with me and I put myself down or I'm angry with you. And I take away any opportunity you would have to boss me around.

I turned that into like in my head. I turned it into if I decided to stay single and be a single mom by choice. And I'm making a statement about how strong women can be. Yeah. But yeah, I think what you're saying makes more sense than that.

We are not strong because we don't need anybody. Yeah. Yeah. That is what the weirdest thoughts. Yeah, and I know it's true.

“I do, and I believe that it's just about like feeling it instead of just believing it in my mind.”

Believe it in it in my mind. So if we go back to that little girl in her room. Yeah.

Who is basically hitting herself with words, with put downs, harder than her dad did.

Yeah. So that in some weird way, if I do it to myself, you're not doing it to me. Yeah. And then I'm going to promise myself redemption tomorrow morning. Yeah.

I'll come back transformed. Perfect. I'll come back perfect so you can't pick at anything. And of course, that wasn't possible. Yeah.

So then what would happen?

What happened with that critical self, the meaning, harsh voice,

Where did it go?

“Um, I don't really speak to myself that way anymore.”

One of the things that bugs me is that I'm a pretty confident person in most of my life,

in my work and with my friends, and even with my family, like my relationship with my dad, as much easier or no, and I don't feel like this is really an issue that I have that much, except in the context of romantic relationships. And it's like I just regress and become a different person than I am in the rest of my life. And I don't really like who I am in that context.

A time when you noticed that instead of criticizing yourself and picking you actually thought, "Oh, I'm all right. I'm okay. I did well." I mean, I definitely became aware that I was speaking to myself in an unkind way and I worked on not doing that anymore. How did you do it?

I guess I had to sort of just let go of being the best at everything.

“I think for a long time that voice, you know, my dad's voice or my voice or whatever,”

was kind of my main source of motivation to do things like to be high achieving and really everything that I was doing in my life. And at a certain point I just kind of stopped worrying as much about being perfect. But now I feel like I don't know where to get motivation as well. I feel like it was all from this judgment, this criticism,

and that's another thing just kind of apart from relationships that I've been thinking about a lot lately. It's like, "I'll do why I get myself to want to do something." Yeah, I'll do it now or better if it doesn't come from a place where I kick myself. Yeah, exactly. Have you tried?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of things that I want to do that take dedication and hard work, for example.

“Well, I'm a violinist and I went through kind of a stage of not, you know,”

used to practice a ton, like kind of obsessively, and that was definitely driven by a lot of this self-criticism. And then I kind of stopped doing that for a while because I was just burned out, and I was tired of evaluating myself based on how well I played the violin. And now I really, I would like to be practicing work consistently than I do, but I don't know, it's just hard to find the internal motivation.

Now that I don't have that voice, say, like, you're going to mess up this audition, or you're not going to know your music for this gig, or whatever. Like, I can't really find a place of just enjoyment and wanting to do it for myself. And do you fail the audition? No.

But I'm not usually as perfectly prepared as I would like to be in a no world. But do you miss the audition? No. No. So you still get to perform.

You play solo, you play parts of orchestra. In an orchestra, a big orchestra or a chamber. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a pretty...

Okay. So, did I do I hear you correct? I am less tense. I don't kick my fingers with my bow. And yet, I'm not doing any less well.

I just feel that the tight jaw and the harshness isn't present, and I became so used to identifying that harshness with motivation and drive. And drive. And when I don't have that negative energy inside of me, it almost feels like there is no energy or no drive at all.

Yeah. But when I look at the actual outcome, it's not necessarily true. Yeah. That's fair. How does that...

How does that... How do I transfer that into a relationship with my love life?

Let's stay with this, because it's okay to go and look in a different part of life.

And then see what we can apply. I mean, watch this, right? For years, saying to myself, you're stupid, you're nil. Nothing's going to come out of you. What the hell is wrong?

Push yourself. Try harder, et cetera. Fundamentally, it convinced you that you're strength. You drive, you persistence. You six hours of practice a day came from that.

Yeah. Nothing to do with the love of the violin. A little bit. There is so much better. The poor violin is part of the story after all.

But something inside of you convinced yourself, equated harshness with drive or motivation, and harshness with motivation, then with success. But when you look at what has changed,

you realize that by being slightly less self-critical and less harsh,

“less abusive towards yourself, honestly.”

You still have the drive. On occasion, maybe not as intensely. I'm not sure if that means you less prepared. I think you may have been as less prepared back then, because you put as much energy into the fretting around it.

But in any case, it doesn't change the outcome. It doesn't make you fail the auditions, or not play in a certain orchestra, etc., etc. So that's a very interesting thing to ponder for a moment. I don't know.

There's just something about it that feels less satisfying. Like I haven't done it well enough to succeed by other people's standards, but it's just not enough for me. Right. Because it but tell me, is it because when you live with the system that says all the time, you're going to fail, you're going to fail, you're going to fail.

Then when you actually get the gig, you think, "I crossed the rubicon. I'm safe. I succeeded. I went against everything I thought about myself." Of course, it feels great. Whereas here, there's no big fear of failure that stands there,

warning you. So when you succeed, it's nice. It's a small orgasm. It's got a big orgasm. Yeah. So it feels less intense, it feels less dramatic.

It feels less epic. Yeah. Yeah. I had not thought about that, poor. But I know that you do.

Yeah. I did always feel like, kind of like when I did succeed,

it was kind of against all odds. Yeah. It was very euphoric. So you went from utter fear to relief to euphoria. Now you don't have the utter fear, so there is less of the sense of relief.

And there is not necessarily that sense of euphoria.

“But the question is, is there a sense of calm satisfaction?”

Confidence, a acquisition of experience, maturation, those pieces. Mm-hmm. Somewhat, yeah. It's not, it's not as intense. Yeah.

It's not nearly as dramatic. Yeah. You don't have the same dopamine. Yeah. Yeah.

You don't have the same, I'm a life. Right. I deserve to be a musician. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I'm not a fraud. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

“But on the other side of that is, um, yes, it's calmer.”

It's more confident. Mm-hmm. It's more confident. Yeah. It feels, it makes me feel like I don't care as much.

I know. I know. I don't feel like feeling like I don't care. You know? If it doesn't make me crazy, if I don't experience the complete passion and fear of annihilation,

then I, I'm a nothing, I'm a nobody. If I don't feel like it's between life and death, then I don't experience enough intensity it's bland. Mm-hmm. I'm so used to eating super spicy food and when it's not burning my palate, I don't

really feel the taste. Yeah.

It would really be like, a saving.

Wow. I can do it. Yeah. I'm on the other side. I can be here.

I deserve to be here. I'm not a failure after all. I mean, it's all life and death. On or off. Success or failure.

Mm-hmm. Froud or not. Yeah. Yeah. And on the other side, yes, it feels, it's more gentle, you know, but it feels a little bit like,

where's the flavor? Where's the excitement? Where's the release? Where's the relief? Where's the, I look at myself in the mirror and I, like, ah, you did it.

You know, like, I defeated the odds. Right? I beat the obstacle. The internal obstacle, of course. We are in the midst of our session.

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I knew you would ask me that.

“I think the first thing is how you interpret it.”

As I'm less driven, then you may be distorting it. If it's not every concert is a proof that I deserve to be a musician, then it becomes, I'm enjoying it more. Rather than I saved my skin. I saved myself from disgrace.

Yeah. So the experience on the other side is when it's simply I enjoy doing what I love on a daily basis. It's no longer a test every time I play. A test not that I played well. A test that I'd even deserve to be a musician in the first place.

And who the hell do you think you are, Miss? Yeah. That voice, that contemptuous voice. So if you ask me what's on the other side, it's the joy of doing what you like without having to constantly fear

that every time you play or every concert you're doing is a test to your identity, to yourself worth, to your raison d'être, to all of that. But just, and it is lower.

Some concerts will still bring because the stakes are always higher

and there's a different hall and a different conductor and a different piece to master.

Yeah.

And it's hopefully more pleasant, more serene, but joyful.

Sounds good. Yeah? We like it.

“So now you're asking me, and how does that translate?”

Yeah. Tell me the relationship you just started, tell me about you and him. I mean, it's so early, you know, like we only know each other for a little while, but he's very nice, a little bit older, not too much, like five years.

And it's feeling good so far, but there's just been moments where I feel like I just get really anxious

about whether I'm doing things right, and if he's going to continue to want to see me, and I just want to be able to relax. You know, there's any of this come up. A little bit. Yeah.

“I wouldn't say that I've kind of said all of this to him, but you're going to lay the broadcast.”

Maybe. I was just talking about it. Yeah. Hey, there's a lot of things about me, you don't know. Things that I have imagined one day I would tell you.

Yeah. And I thought one way to share some of this with you is for us to listen to this together, or just for you to listen to this, and then we can discuss. Yeah. Or you can just surprise him when they would drive in the car and put this down.

Surprise. I want to play a piece for you. And then just watch the response.

“I think, you know, there's a way in which when you hear a person speak authentically,”

truthfully like that about themselves. And you feel it really tenderness towards them. You don't feel actually, I don't want this person. You actually, it's like, it's like a piece of music that uncovers itself. And you start to hear the undertones and the other layers in the piece.

Yeah. I think that's kind of, you know, when I start to hear things in another person, that's when I start to. Okay, just, I don't want to lose it, you know, because it's beautiful. Yeah. Then I think it will be a very interesting way for you to share some of what you grapple with.

I feel like I'm getting better at noticing when this is happening. But I haven't quite figured out how to, like, just take a step back and, you know, reconnect with myself and I was going to say something reverse to ground yourself. What you call to reconnect with yourself, to ground yourself. You can just literally put your feet on the ground and press on your heels. And bring your hands on your, on the top of your knees and press on them, so that you're sitting totally up.

And you're holding the pony handles, the knees, the shoulders. So you really are grounding. You can do that. You don't have to think and talk. You can literally use your body, use your breath.

To hold your interiority. You can also, when you start to feel rattled, just take his hands and hold his hand and say nothing. Or ask him, hold me. And just feels good or say nothing and just breathe in it. Yeah, into his arms.

Basically, use your body to ground, to regulate and to harness the connection internally.

Rather than the flight, I leave myself, I leave my body, I try to please you, just so that you will not leave me.

And I just, you know, like my body is already otherwise engaged.

You know, and so that sometimes just feels like a situation where I can't, you know, like I'm just kind of trapped a little bit. You know, why trapped?

“I think I just have a lot of ideas about what I'm supposed to be doing.”

You know, and, um, do you like to be with him physically? Yeah, yeah, I do. It hasn't been very many times, but, um, yeah, I think a lot of this just kind of comes to a head in that context,

because there's a lot of messaging about what women are supposed to do to keep their men interested in them.

You know, I'm like, regardless of, well, what's one, what's one physical thing that you do that you know for fact is phoning. I do something that I really don't particularly care about, but I think I don't even know if he does, but I've learned that I was told I read whatever that I should. And, uh, and in the process of that, I literally disconnect from myself. I think it's more, at this point, like, I've been worried about taking too long.

“And I've been having a hard time just like being present enough and relaxed enough to really enjoy myself because there's just this loop going in my head about like you have to hurry,”

or else he's going to get bored, and, you know, um, yeah, do you fake it? No, but then I feel bad because then maybe he feels insecure because I didn't finish and blah, blah, blah, blah. And those that been a conversation are not yet. A little bit, yeah, we talked a little bit about just, I told him that there's, there's kind of a lot of voices in my head. Sometimes it makes it hard to relax.

You know, he was very receptive to that, and I think it's just hard to trust that he really is going to be okay with it, and that he's not just saying the right things because they're the right things. They're saying the right things and they're doing the right things and everybody's, this is a beautiful look, you just met. Yeah. And all of this needs to come out in conversation and the trust is built by taking the risks, small steps each time.

The trust is built by your saying, I'm going to take time. Not just time to come, time to get turned on, time to feel grounded, time to be in my body, time to not feel like I'm here to please him only, time to find a way to play music together. Yeah. And I'm going to be over about it.

No need to be so indirect. It's scary. But you will know because if he welcomes it, or even if he has to adapt to it, because he has his own insecurities,

because it's always insecure when there is nascent love like this.

It's always repetitions. If he responds in that vein, then you know that there are two people here discovering each other, discovering each other and discovering themselves with the other. If he starts to become critical, then you probably know that you're in the wrong place. Yeah.

You know, you're in the wrong place, because you're with someone with whom you're going to reactivate this entire mechanism of how you reacted to the critical voice of the man who's love and attention. And you so you're in for. Yeah.

“I think I just have to be brave enough to let that happen if it's going to happen to find out that he's not the right match.”

If he isn't, it feels safer to like to avoid that kind of discovery, right?

Oh, I don't know, no, I know in one thing, when you're saying it, but it doesn't, it doesn't.

It doesn't feel safer at all. It just feels like it's the replay of an old story. But I'm used to it. That's what I mean. Ah, I wanted it.

“So you just say to him, I think I met the person with whom I want to learn to become more truthful.”

I think I met the person with whom I would like to feel that I can be in my body and with you. Do you want that too?

Are you willing to be patient with me?

That is a level of self-assertion that is very different. It's like you are, I like you enough to want to do this with you. Mm-hmm. Take it as a compliment. And put your fierceness that you've put into yourself criticism into expressing your wish.

Keep that energy, keep that fierceness, but now apply it to your aspirations. Mm-hmm. Yes? Sounds so good. I can hear the voices fighting back.

I can hear the voices fighting back. Mm-hmm.

“But you can also have another verse that says, "So I met this woman.”

Her name is Esther, and she kind of told me to do something that I so deeply wanted and learned for. But it was very scared to ask for. And yet, the came a tipping point where I felt that not to ask for it. Do you know the quote of Anais Ninn? What is it?

Love never dies a natural death.

It dies because we don't know how to replenish it's source. It dies of blindness and errors and betrayals. It dies of illness and wounds. It dies of weariness of witherings of tarnishings. And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.

So this session ends with my saying, "Here's to your blossoming." Thank you, and we appreciate it. You are welcome. This was an ester calling. The one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

If you have a question you'd like to explore with a stare. It could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call. Send a voice message and a stare might just call you. Send your question to [email protected].

“Where should we begin with estereparallel as produced by Magnificent Noise?”

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destrecyably, Sabrina Farhy, Kristen Muller, and Julian Han. Original music, an additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin, are estereparallel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Sol.

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