Philippe, Duc d’Orléans: in the shadow of the Sun King

This is not the future we were promised. Like, hell that out for a tagline for this show. From the BBC, this is the interface. The show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to your Dead To Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Janna.

I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are slipping into our ball gowns and sawntering out to 17th century France to learn all about Louis the 14th. Let's famous, but more fabulous, forever. Philippe Duke Dolly Hall and to help us, we have two very special guests.

In history corner, he's a senior lecturer in history at Manchester Metropolitan University where he specializes in the aristocracy of early modern France and its neighbours. Luckily for us, he's also an expert on royal courts and is the author of Monsieur.

Second Suns in the Monarchy of France, it's Dr. Jonathan Spangler.

Welcome, Jonathan. Hello, thanks. It's great to be here today. It delighted to have you here, adding comedy corner. He's a top class comedian writer and presenter.

You'll know him from loads of comedy TV shows, as well as from Bake Off and Extra Slice. The apprentice you're fired, maybe you've read his hilarious memoirs. No shame and too much. Or perhaps you've listened to one of his podcasts, like-minded friends and pottering.

It's Tom Allen. Welcome to the show Tom. Oh, Greg, thank you for that lovely welcome. I'm so excited to be here, especially with Jonathan who's speciality is exactly what I'm interested in. Second Suns in aristocracies across Northern Europe.

“Actually, in any kind of aristocratic life, I think because I've always fancied myself as an aristocrat.”

I really, which is unfortunate considering I went to a comprehensive school in Bromley. But much to my family and friends, sugar and sugar, I've often tried to pretend I'm an aristocrat and being very quickly knocked down. Maybe that'll change today. I mean, you dress beautifully. So I think you certainly, you've certainly passed Master on the looks on the BBC on Twitter.

Some of us like to keep standards on this broadcasting corporation. So I think I would like it if all ready for presenters and an answer still wore it in a jacket. Right, I'm so sorry, I don't know. I'll record my mind spoil it, but this is what I'm going to say. And so that you've stuck to that tradition, Greg.

I know I'm in a bogum. Yeah. At some, are you a history lover? Do you enjoy history?

I have always loved history.

I almost did it at university, but then rather cautiously. Like a second son of any French aristocrat decided I didn't need it. I said it again, but I nearly, I went to interview at clear college in Cambridge. Oh, of course applied there because I thought it was the nicest building. As any fool would, and applied for a very popular course there.

And did not know what I was doing and was very roundly rejected. But and that sort of put me off a bit.

“And so I think I decided to pursue showbears instead, which I think probably was the right thing.”

I'm not that serious, but I love, I love, I love, I love any kind of history. And I like we've already been talking actually Jonathan, I about favorite historical films. And mind being the Madness of King George. Oh, I think really, it's your favorite. It isn't really moving.

Just that attention to detail. Yeah, very much. The best line, can I go with this one? When Rupert ever it, I think at the very beginning, he says, Oh, it appears on Bishop of Rosenbrook.

It's a, it's a funny what one is. Yes, yes. That's it. So what do you know? This is the so what do you know?

This is where I guess what you are lovely listener might know about today's subjects. And Philippe is perhaps best known for lavish dramas about his brother, Louis King Louis. In the film, A Little Chaos, Philippe is played by a swarve, Stanley Tucci. In the man in the Iron Mask, he and Louis are reimagined as twins and both played by Leonardo DiCaprio. But my personal favorite, of course, is the TV drama Versailles shown on the BBC,

which I got to discuss every week as the co-host of BBC 2's inside Versailles with Professor Kate Williams. Bonjour.

“But was Philippe more than just King Louis's chaotic little brother?”

What'd it like to grow up as the spare? And how long can you really keep a manager to our going? Let's find out. Right. Dr. Jonathan, let's start the start.

When Little Prince Philippe was born, who were his parents? Presumably, King's, Queen's. Yes, that's right. So if you're Prince, generally your parents are a King and a Queen.

And in this case, France is often very boring and that they always choose the name Louis.

So his father's name is Louis 13th. His mother's name is Anne of Austria, which is a bit confusing because she's from Spain.

And so that's the way they call her, and nutrition in French.

So Louis and Anne are his parents. He's born in 1640, right in the middle of the 17th century, almost. And he had an older brother who was called Louis the 14th eventually, about the time he's called the Dofa. Well, I think we need to put in context right at the very beginning,

is the fact that Philippe and Louis were both born after over 15 years of marriage for his parents. And so there was this miracle moment in 1638 when Louis the 14th is born. And so they, of course, name him, "Lord, you're done A," which is the God-given son. Oh, I'm lovely.

“That's what people said about me, actually.”

And it's quite an entrance into the world, I think. Well, I was going to ask Tom, you have a brother.

If your brother had been called the God-given son,

how would you feel about that? Well, I am the eldest, actually. So you're the God-given, I am the God-given. I was born after 10 years of my parents' reign. Oh, so I'm very similar, obviously.

Tom, why do you think it took Queen Anne and King Louis the 13th? 23 years to conceive? Maybe just not into it. People, you know, you've got hobbies. Oh, well, it's an easy one to say, but was he homosexual?

Well, maybe they were both homosexual, or maybe they were both. I mean, Pius is the word historians you should go with. Well, yes, or homosexual. There are, there are some who thought that Louis the 13th did prefer boys. And there are several long relationships that he has with men

of lower ranks, somebody usually from the stables or a valid genre or something. Yes, but it's just like a film I went saw. But Pius is certainly the word.

“And I think more and more Psycho historians have gone and said,”

well, actually Louis the 13th was just cripplingly Pius. And couldn't really be in the same room with women, much less his wife. Jonathan, a Psycho historian is a historian of psychology, not someone with a knife running down the corridors. No, it was a trend. It was one of the historians trends in the 1970s, 1980s,

really, where people were trying to use the new tools of psychology and applying them to historical figures. They were both married when they were 15. So, I mean, together with a bit of credit, I think they were just probably terrified. So, yeah, it took quite some time and apparently, according to one story, a nun had to sort of convince him and say, look, this is your job.

Try to do their sort of things going for numbness. And then the kind of popular story that a lot of people repeat again, again, is that one night there was a big rainstorm. So, Louis the 13th was out hunting, passing through Paris from one hunting lodge to another, and couldn't get where he was going.

So, he stopped in the Louvre, right in the middle of Paris, but nobody knew he was coming. So, they hadn't prepared his rooms. So, the queen was already there and had a bed, and so he slept with her. And voila, nine months later, it's quite romantic. So, romantic, yet something else taken at the Louvre.

“And then Philippe is born after what? They just, they like, we probably need another one?”

Yeah, I suppose so, but there is another gossip story there, that there's an Italian adventurer called Julio Matarini, who arrives, and some people have thought Philippe was maybe his child. Oh, really? So, even as the spare, young Prince Philippe, you know, the second son, but still a prince.

He's having, presumably a very prestigious upbringing. He's going to be educated to be a king, or does he get a different education? Well, he's being educated to be a king, because in the 17th century, infants often died after only a year or two, or nine or ten. So, Philippe was always called the spare, he was always the next one in line.

So, he had to be raised the same way. They had a governess, they had tutors, they had horse riding, offencing military history, military strategy, that sort of thing.

At the same time, there was always a bit of a limit in that Louis XIV was always the first,

and Philippe always had to defer to him, no matter what. So, their psychological relationship was set up on the very, very start. And when you say differ, what would that have meant the day to day? Well, it would have meant that if Louis XIV stood up, well, let's call them the do-fant, Louis stood up, Philippe would have had to stand up.

I mean, that kind of thing. But we also have stories that being boys and throwing things at each other. And, you know, fighting on the floor, and then he's Philippe is chided, because you can't strike your older brother, he's the do-fant of France. That's, I mean, can you imagine that?

"Mom, he, I told you, yeah, he, he, he, he, he, he." A tragedy strikes very young for these two boys. I mean, France is, France loses its king. I lose the 13th dies, and the boys are four, three. Right, so four years old and three years old.

Of the gap is about two altogether, but so they're both children. And it's the middle of the 17th century. There are wars raging both with Germany and Spain. France has been at war for over ten years, and their mother,

But the old elites, the princes, the dooks, they don't want to have anything of that. They think they should be running the government as well. So they stage a battle, a civil war, called the front in France, and it gets to be so scary that at one point and takes the boys and just escapes the country's eye to San Germain and lay in the western parts of Paris.

So a lot of people who have tried to look at the trauma of these two kids, these boys,

“see, this is a quite dramatic moment in their upbringing, I think.”

Because the front is happening at the same time as the English civil war. I'd say it was about the same time. - Yeah, 60, 40 years. - Yeah, 60, 40 years exactly the same. So meanwhile in Britain there's a horrible violence in war, but it's happening in France too. Right, and the dates really line up amazingly, because just when the Parlamal and the rebellion is getting really, really strong,

Charles the First is executed January 1649,

and that's, I think, when the French Monarchy says, you know, we got to really consider what's going on here, and those are their, you know, very first cousins, really close. And there is a suggestion that the king will be seized, that you know, Louis will be seized, Philippe falls ill at one point,

and he gets left behind. - Yeah, yes, so another trauma on top of the trauma. Goodness. - The other character, those who's revolving around in the background, that I think we shouldn't forget, is Louis the 13th younger brother. So there's another generation of all this. Gaston is still alive. Gaston is dashing and lovely.

He's one of my favorites, but he is at the head of this rebellion. Not to look everything into popular culture, but is he the one in the three musketeers? - I'm actually not talking about that. - Probably is.

“I think, I'm not thinking of the novel, I'm actually thinking of the movies of the cartoon.”

- I think of Doctanian. - Doctanian. - Yeah. - Famous documentary. - Yeah, I don't think that's one thing. - So you're right, there is a guest rise in there. - I'm aware of it, but I don't think. - It's dubbed in English as well. - So, in the three musketeers stories,

Queen Anne is running back and forth with Buckingham and the stolen diamonds, and the interesting stuff like that. - Oh, yes. I think Gaston is tied up with that. - And Masura and Rishulia are the chief advisors in those books, aren't they? So Uncle Gaston, it's nice to know that every family has a problematic uncle,

even in the 17th century, should we get into that? So we've got little Philippe life beginning with tragically, and he's losing his father, experiencing a civil war, seeing a king of England being beheaded, seeing his brother being sort of hounded by their own uncle.

- Right, a lot of drama for a little kid. And I suppose all the while, he's having to go to school. Tom, what do you think he's learning at this age? You know, he's not, he's no longer a toddler, he's a bit older. - I imagine at that time, very loosely, but I imagine that

it's still probably learning about fighting, and learning about how to be a good Catholic boy, and probably,

well, I'm always intrigued in how kind of ruling families were,

were conditioned from an early age to be not just in control, but kind of without fear of being judged. You know, you're being above judgment, must have been kind of an early indoctrination, I guess. - It's an interesting point, it's the psychological training of power.

- Yeah, very much so.

“I think that's one of the really good things that Philippe does,”

is Philippe is the only person who can say no to Louis. - Ah, right. - I think that's really important. - It's Philippe academic, is he bookish, is he more? - Well, they're them are, I think.

Right. Both of them study, both of them read their books, both of them, especially Louis XIV, because I read this in school, therefore it must be so. That's his mentality, I think in a nutshell.

- Right. - Philippe I think is a bit more fun, a bit more maybe, I just am biased, but I like him a lot. But they certainly learn, you know, dancing, fencing, horsemanship,

being on a horse is an important part. - Yeah, we know that Philippe's handwriting is dreadful, right? - Yes, I've seen some of his letters.

They're basically a bunch of vertical stripes,

and apparently there are references for his wife, who will get to later, having to read his letters back to him, because he didn't know what he'd written. - The one thing we do need to address, and I'm curious whether this is gossip room,

there is this sort of story that Philippe is dressed as a girl. - Yeah. - Now obviously boys at this age, where dress is anyway, to the age of five. - It's seven.

- Seven. - Okay, thank you. You know, Winston Churchill wore dress until he was the rough of that, but there is this sense that the queen treats Philippe's her little princess.

- Yes. Like you said, the common for all aristocratic boys is to wear dress until you're breached, which I think is a fun word. Seven, you are breached and put into trousers,

given a male governor rather than a female governor. Nass, who's been looking after you. But the stories are very much that Ann wanted to keep Philippe less threatening than Uncle Gaston. That's the common story.

And so they she took him with her on her visits to ladies to convince to other women dressed as a girl.

called the Abbey to Shwazi. In his memoir he says, well, I met Philippe all the time

when we were kids, and we were always both dressed as girls.

And we spent all of our day putting on diamonds, doing our hair, really having such a great time. So he really liked it. And his story in its own probably should have its own part because he grows up to be an Abbey.

And he's he's head of a church. And he transforms himself dressed by dress week after week from a classic into a ball gown. And he's gonna go away challenge. It's not the same to notice.

But there is a caveat, which is the analyst and literary scholars have looked at the Abbey to Shwazi's memoirs. And I've said, well, he was writing an age when people really liked shocking. You know, they had to sell their books.

It's not so dimensional world like that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's possible that it wasn't true. But we do have later stories, it's really cross-dressing.

Yeah.

So the idea, really, is that while Gaston's still alive,

fully needs to be trained how to be different. Because Gaston was involved in civil wars from the 1620s, all the way to the 1650s, constantly rebelling. And they thought, well, let's do something different.

“So later historians, I think 19th century Victorian historians are to blame.”

They said, oh, well, they emasculated him. They made Philippe Gay so that he couldn't challenge the throne. And I think that's ridiculous. Because why would you do that?

Yeah. Well, particularly given that Louis XIV could have died at any moment. Yes. And then suddenly you are stuck with, oh, dear.

What have we done? He's the backup plan. He's the future of France. So if Louis gets a cold. Yeah.

So we logically, it really doesn't make sense. No. But I think the Victorians liked that idea. OK. Would you imagine Philippe's a teenager, Tom?

What were you like as a teenager? Well, that's a big question. But I can imagine if I was Philippe. He's frustrated, but he would also be, I mean, he's given opportunity to be a bit free

than his older brother, I imagine. So probably would be more front-boying. It would be more theatrical. I mean, I'm sensing from the sense that you've booked me.

And you would. Yeah, we didn't get Ray Winsley at the time. He's one. Danny Dyer didn't want to do this one. Yeah.

And so I'm imagining maybe pushing the envelope of fashion and trying out different things different. He had a very alternative upbringing in some ways, I guess. I'm imagining he would be kind of a theatrical to say the last. Yeah, he's more interested in theater.

And we'll actually get into that in a bit with Moliere. There's actually a quite close connection. So he is a bit freer and is a bit different.

“And I think his character, he's written about as much more energetic,”

much more fun, much more unpredictable, I think. There is the cross-dressing stories which do then have some elements of truth, but sometimes people also critiqued him for being too frivolous, too childish, not serious enough. Not, you know, you're supposed to be the second man of France.

He's fun with his friends. He's having a laugh, but maybe he's not quite growing up. Right. Fast enough. Is it tough for one?

There wasn't it being an understudy like that. Yeah.

For a geek, you're never going to get it.

Yeah, absolutely. And you've spoken there about, you've mentioned cross-dressing. So I mean, there are stories of him showing up to court in a bull gown. Yeah. So one of the best memoirs we have at the time,

which is very much worth a read, is the memoirs of his first cousin, whose name, guess what, is, like, Grand Man was L. Because she was the Mademoiselle, but she was the older one, unmarried princess. And her memoirs are hilarious.

Because she thinks she's the most important person in Europe. And I remember a start that way. They say, well, I'm writing these memoirs because everyone should be reading them. [ Laughter ] She's a sense of self-importance.

“I think he's so fascinating in age when we're encouraged to be quite meak,”

quite sort of muted. She was anything but she's Gaston's daughter, by the way. Like an Instagram influencer. Yeah, well, so yes, so she's Gaston's daughter. And she's telling us that Philippe shows up dressed as a shepherd us.

Yeah, well, they did together. Yeah, okay. They were often paired together to come to balls, or dances as a, as a, as a potential partners, you know, right, okay. They may have gotten married, even though she's 20 years older than he. But yes, she describes in her memoirs how quite clearly there is an event

where they turn up together as shepherdesses. And they sort of parade her. They seem to love shepherdesses because later on, Marianne Twinnett. That's right. That's right.

Something like, yeah, thing in the French court, like, what do we dress that, like, sort of tarts and vickers party? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's one of the upper class dressing as peasants and chaperesses.

Quite funny, huh? Oh, I see that was the thing they did. Yeah. The ultimate role reversal isn't it. Yeah, I suppose, you know, they're kind of,

Ooh, but becolic low status, but the girl with the sheep. Yeah, it's not too turn out hilarious. I'm veiling your drag persona, the shepherdess, your brother's party. If your brother's thinking of France, it's quite a bold move, Tom.

in an age where they obviously had anything they wanted to do but they think it tips within the reason. Why not? Like, I can imagine that that would be, I don't know how serious the court was, I guess,

because they're such an opulence. That's the good next question, I think,

“because we have to remember that what everybody else was wearing”

at the time is men were wearing high heels shoes. We're wearing lace. We're wearing huge bows and giant curled wigs, and lots of perfumed costumes. So being in drag then didn't mean what it does now.

Right. Well, it's interesting to me that we talk about, like, drag, or we talk about kind of people. Yeah, wearing different clothes, and then society might expect of them, and it creates this uproar.

But I kind of do think, well, for a long, long time,

particularly wealthy, powerful people,

have worn the most framboyant things you can imagine, much more framboyant than anything anybody would wear today. Well, we did an episode on the history of high heels shoes, which were first, first and then to for men. Right, you know?

And so the history of the gendering of that type of shoe is really interesting because back and forth, you know? But let's talk about Philippe as the spare, right? So he's the understudy, which is all good enough, but I suppose he has to be ready.

Louis, the king does feel he gets very, very unwell in 1658, and there is the possibility he's going to die.

“Yeah, so this is one of places where I think people thought”

Philippe might become like Gaston, and would champion a rebellion. A court coup was kind of brewing because Louis the 14th was very sick. And Philippe doesn't really play the role he's supposed to. There's a whole coat of re of people gathering around his bed, saying, "Now it's the time, now it's the time."

And he just starts crying because he loves his brother so much. And if Louis had died, of course, Philippe would have become king.

But I think right away it shows that Philippe is a different character

to Uncle Gaston, in that he doesn't really want to seize power. But he also does his jobs, he has duties, he goes around occasionally opening convents, or cutting ribbons, or, you know? It's the same. Well, it's the same. It's the same. It's different from today.

It's be seen. Yeah, he has to be seen. He can introduce edicts into parlamar, you know, he can do if Louis is not available to do something clerical, Philippe can do it. So he does a job.

Okay, so he can do sort of minor, minor ruling duties, you know, but obviously in 1661 King Louis has a son, which means Philippe's role as spare, immediately he's no longer needed, right? Right.

And now the understudy to the understudy. Yeah. So it's kind of, it's, he's had the Uncle Gaston treatment. Yeah, he's been Gaston. He's been Gaston. Yeah.

Oh, no. I mean, somebody who's flamboyant, I imagine that was quite wounding.

“I think so, but on the other hand, he was able to focus in another direction.”

I do get the sense he's got a lot of directions. Yeah. We haven't really mentioned romance. Yeah. And we haven't mentioned the obvious thing of surely a prince of the royal blood

needs to marry someone noble so that, you know, it can start churning out kids as well. So, I mean, you mentioned the shepherds does that work out? So, yeah, there is a plan to marry Monsieur with La Grammaine was else, because she has the largest fortune in Europe. Oh, so she is important vastly wealth.

And so it makes much more sense to just keep that in the family. And there is another cutting line from her, where she says, having seen what he is like, I think I'd rather marry no one at all.

No, I thought they were great friends, but I mean, she's a smart woman and she realizes that his interests already are not in women. So, the shepherds love interest doesn't quite work. That's a shame because I had, you know, a little bowpip would have been his...

Oh, that would have been... You've been thinking that for a long time. I've literally five minutes. I mean, think you had a way. How do I squeeze this in?

I thought you gone quite from a moment then. I thought you got that moment. All right. So, Philippe does marry. Yes.

So, Louis XIV has married to Endwar, as you often do, if you royal. And he marries the infant of Spain, Marie Torres arrives, and they then have Adolfa. And in 1660, 1661, France needed a new ally across the channel. So, Louis XIV looked to his cousin Charles II,

who was the king of England and Scotland, and he arranges marriage with Charles's sister, who's called Henrietta Anne, or Henriette, in French. So, Philippe Marie's Henriette, and is she happy about this? Is he happy about this?

I think, from both of them at first, it's kind of a relief.

Because they've grown up together. They know each other very, very well. They know what each other's like. But I think the trouble does start almost immediately, because she is very energetic and flamboyant,

and loves fashion and loves dresses. Oh, yeah, that's my thing. Exactly. So, they clash almost immediately. And there's a mine shoes.

He wants to shine at the ball. Oh, no. To shine at the ball. This is a nightmare. They've both got walking closely.

They're filled with gowns. I mean, the other thing we should say actually, he has been promoted. He's now a juke, at this point, because Gaston has died. Uncle Gaston has gone, which means his title is up for grabs,

And Uncle Gaston didn't have any kids? He does, but there are girls. You can't pass on a duke to a very convenient. Yeah. So Philippe is now the juke-dolly-all.

Henriette is now the Duchess of Wally-all. So Mr. and Mrs. Wally-all, I don't know whatever the rules are. So they're married, and I mean, Philippe and Louis dad took 23 years to have kids.

We know Philippe first men.

So, do they have kids? Yeah, right away. Did I? Yeah. So much to everybody surprised probably.

They have a daughter called Marie Louise, right away, and then there's a boy who doesn't live very long, called the Duke of Valois, and another girl a bit later called Marie-Anne, so they do have children.

“And this, I think, is probably the most vicious part of Philippe's story”

that I read about when I was studying all these things, is that if Henriette was outshining him at court, he had a weapon at his disposal, which was making her pregnant. Oh, man. Is it awful?

So if she wanted to be at court, you want to be there at the winter, if the winter's when all the balls are. And so he would make her pregnant right in time so that she couldn't be there in the winter and had to go to the country house.

That's such a gazing to do. Yeah.

It's quite a sort of jealous move, isn't it?

It's got to your wife. And you can use the Bible to support it, and say, "I'm the husband. It's my right to make you pregnant whenever I want." This is not the future we were promised.

Like, hell that up for a tagline for this show. From the BBC, this is the interface, the shows that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.

It's about what technology's actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. So we get the scent, Henriette, and Philippe.

There's love there, but there's also real rivalry there and petty jellacies. She cheats on him. Yeah, so we can go back to like Ramam Ozzel, a great source of information here.

She's writing, writing, writing. And there's a guy called the Comptagiche, who's this very handsome man who comes in. Comptagiche. Comptagiche.

And Geesh is very violent and very, I think he's a top. And Philippe, I think likes that. I mean, there's stories of him sort of being beaten almost by Geesh, which are a little weird.

But Henriette sweeps and takes him as her boyfriend. So yeah, the tension mounts constantly. So they're sharing a lover? Not really, because Geesh, well, we don't really know, but I think he goes from him to her.

Well, was again, I suppose, you know, actually quite prudish post Victorian age.

“We don't really acknowledge that I think love,”

free love, if you like, was was quite was much more the case in in aristocratic circles. Is that fair to say that? Yes, and it comes and goes. So the 1660s, which is the decade brand now,

is very fun festivals, parties, drinking. Yeah. They're all in their twenties. The invention of champagne. Yeah.

Yeah. So Louis, his wife, Philippe, his wife. They're all in their twenties. They're having a really good time. And the idea of, as we're labeling, is also not really happening there,

that people aren't coming out. Right. So there was no concept really of homosexual. There was no concept of an identity that you would choose, or not choose.

Right. A lot of it was just down to practice. What did you do? Yes.

And of course, you know, there's always the Greek education

and yes, stories are meant to shag for a little while, and then you eventually marry and have children. So putting a label on it is difficult.

“And I think a lot of things were much more fluid.”

And you could be married, but also having sex with a man on the side. And I don't think people really cared. They did, yeah, I was going to say. Oh, they did care. And I think we should be clear to say this is, like you said,

a very upper class thing. So middle class people. Oh, they're touching away. No. Yes.

The job is almost always if you can keep this inside the court, that's fine. But once the general population of France starts talking about it, then you have to stop. OK.

So people like Geesh are sent away. They have your Keesh. I have your Keesh edited. Well, they go from Keesh to Lorraine, because that's exactly the same. The next man is the Chvalier de Lorraine.

Oh, my goodness. On the ITV at 9am. Yeah. What do you think? Do you have a herd of the Chvalier de Lorraine?

The horseman of Lorraine? No. Yeah, the Knight of the Knight. Oh, yeah, is that right? Yeah.

No, I haven't actually. As I say, only his Keesh. It's a delight for him. Yeah, I know. In Jonathan, this, I think it's fair to say is,

Yes. Other men come and go in this story, but the Chvalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about 40 years. Really?

Yeah, which I've never found an example like that in the 17th century

of two men together like that. From everything I've read, people didn't mind that Philippe was having a boyfriend. What they didn't like was that he was being dominated. Because a prince, which is what I think

the TV show Versailles got wrong by the way. And so the Chvalier de Lorraine is a great character because he was good looking. He was charming. He was from a really old family.

The oldest family in Europe. But he had no money at all. So he was totally dependent on Philippe and they had this romantic made up.

“I think they had known each other since boys”

because their mothers were great friends. But finally, they're both sent off to war together in 1667. The Chvalier de Gets wound it. It wounded Philippe nurses him back to health.

And it's very romantic. Very sweet story. And then they're together for the next 40 years. A 40 year relationship in some, some regard lovely, beautiful, wonderful.

In other ways, he is married. How do you think Henriette is wife? I don't know. Yeah, I know you did. Yeah, how do you think she dealt with the Chvalier?

How do you think she handled him? Wasn't, but she's still isn't she off with them? What's his mate? Keesh. Yeah.

She's having a Keesh in eating. So she's he's he's he's he's still looking around with them? No, they've sent him off to the front. Oh, God. Once they got too scandalous, he had to be sent away.

Sent off the war. Yeah. To hopefully get shot. Yeah. Oh, so imagine she's furious there.

Yes, she's furious.

“And the moves on the Chvalier and Henriette don't get along.”

And they're always throwing barbarity each other.

But, but then the interesting twist comes along when she decides really that she wants to be a lot more politically active which is unusual for a woman at the time. But if you've got the talent for it, and she did. And so Louis XIV needed more allies.

So he sent her off to England to meet with her brother and Henriette and Charles have a tetatet in Dover. They sign a treaty. Secret treaty. A secret treaty.

Well, parts of it are secret. Yeah. The Treaty of Dover. I mean, it's scandalous when it's revealed that Charles II basically says I will take a massive bribe

and become a Catholic. No. Really? That's really. That's why it was a secret. Big secret.

Yeah, big secret. Wow, I didn't know he'd be with that. Well, he didn't. Because his ministers found out. Yeah, big.

Big-ish. The heads rolled. Henriette or Henriette was triumphant.

“She had succeeded in really changing the alliances in Europe.”

She comes back to France in triumph. Everyone is saying what a great job. She's had. And this is June of 1670. She suddenly becomes very sick after drinking

a chickery, which is sort of like our chocolate. And dies very soon after. Oh, no, wasn't. Well, so she said, I'm poisoned. I'm poisoned as people were calaring around her.

Yeah. And so everyone presumably pointed a finger at Philippe or the Chivalry. Or the Chivalry, right? Because she, I mean, she'd had a word with her brother

and the Chivalry had been turfed out for a bit. Right. So he's actually not in the country. So I don't think he poisoned her unless it was very complicated that he was in Rome.

So Louis XIV thought that the Chivalry was was too embarrassing in terms of global politics. And he wanted this alliance with England. And Charles II was saying, well, you've got to get rid of that guy. So they did because of the scandal.

Because of the scandal. Yeah. Yeah, idea that like this divorced gay couple. But that's the fortune. So only tragically died.

The Chivalry of the Lorraine returned. I bet he did. Yeah, straight on his horse. It shows up the funeral, you know? Yeah, I bet just the outfit.

Yeah. Oh, the old and everything. And so, you know, we have now Philippe, the father of children, no longer marriage with a stable boyfriend.

There's no real reason for him to remarry. Not necessarily no. But Louis XIV only has one son. And even though the dophas now ten, he still could die.

Chivalry happens. Chivalry happens. [ Laughter ] And Louis XIV needs new allies. England turned up to not be a good ally at all.

And so he looks to Germany and the German princely states. He can't marry Habsburg because they're the enemy. Who's second best? There's a state called the Palatinate, which controls the middle line.

And so Louis XIV gets a girl from the Palatinate who is a wonderful character who we'll talk about a bit more now. Call Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate. We call her Lisa Later, which isn't not really correct. It's what the German is called.

Lizzy with a Z. She's called Madam Palatine by the French. So she marries in from Germany, which means presumably she's a Protestant? Yes.

She is. So this is all quite awkward, right? Because the Catholic royal family of France are marrying a Protestant princess. Yeah.

But France being France and being the most powerful dynasty in Europe,

Right.

“And so the Elector Palatine pretends that he doesn't know about the marriage.”

It's really, he really actually releases a statement that says,

"Oh my goodness, my daughter has got married and I know nothing about it." And she travels to the frontier. She goes to Metz, and within one day she does catacysm. She renounces heresy. She becomes a Catholic all in one day.

In a crash course. Yeah, crash course. So by the end of the day, she's a good Catholic girl. And they get married. A little later is a fantastically enjoyable character.

Her letters are incredible. Oh, they're so funny. Yeah. She herself, how does she describe herself? Jonathan.

So we are so lucky as historians that she left behind thousands of letters. Almost every day she wrote letters to relatives either in England or in Germany. And they are hilariously funny. Mm-hmm. She puts a good foot forward at beginning.

She loves hunting. Louis XIV loves hunting. They become really close right away. Letfully do his decorating at home. Yes.

He's got things. He's got a water pellet glass at the end. And they have children. So the first the marriage is going well. But she then gets larger.

And she herself in her letters says, Oh, I've become very broad. And she even has every funny letter where she says, you know,

I've always made fun of my uglyness.

My father and my late brother often told me how unattractive I was. I laughed it off and never cared. My brother called me badger nose, and I laughed even harder. [laughter] I mean, bless her. I sounds like a lot of fun.

I have a lot of time for her. It's yeah. And now he has quite self-deprecating then. Yeah. Her kind of healthcare regime is great.

Yeah, that's really interesting to think of. It's very German. Yes. So she's seeing that there are these royal and aristocratic children dying, basically because French medicine is so weird.

Oh. And so she says, nope, we need open windows. We need healthy... Oh, like fresh air. Yeah.

Easy ideas like that. She's like, rah, it's night and go. Yeah. So she's way ahead. And she does a five mile walk every day in Windenrain.

She's sort of out there. Physical, you know, strong and hilariously funny. Her letters are fantastic. I think they're, I think they digitize. I'm not sure if they are.

But there's lots of different collections. Yeah. But there's lots of different collections. She's absolutely Lisa Lotto. The most famous one maybe is about farting.

Yeah. Very quickly if you can. Well, it's one of the etiquette moments where they're standing, waiting for the king to walk into a room. And two of her children fart.

And then the father says, well, I can make music better than that. And he farts. And then, and then, my down says, well. [LAUGHTER] And she outfarts them all.

[LAUGHTER] She's the silly Emory of those. [LAUGHTER] God, they had those windows open. Yeah.

[LAUGHTER] But we must talk about the shavali again, because he came back into the picture. Not leaving the window. He's not getting the memo.

And 1672, he's back in the life. And he's sort of ruins the honeymoon period with Lisa Lotto. I bet he absolutely hates poor old Lisa Lotto. Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

It sounds like she's funny than him, which gives hate. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. They suffer tragedy. The couple, right?

So they lose a child. Yeah. So there is another boy that's born, but he only lives a year or so. And so they do suffer this tragedy, which brings them together.

“And I think throughout all of it, even if he has these,”

this boyfriend and other boyfriends, they do feel like a really good couple. For the rest of their lives. So it's a very strange kind of three-way relationship. And they raise their children together. And they're very, very proud of their children.

Two more daughters. No, sorry, one more daughter. But then once the child rearing age kind of passes, I think the shavali age decides now is my time again. And I want to be really the head of this household.

Really? Yeah, it's so ambitious. He is very ambitious. And all the commentators say, he runs Philippe's household. Which is quite a lot of people.

Two or 300 people. Art collections. We haven't talked so much about these two houses. There's the Palais Royale in Paris. And there's a palace called San Clu on the outskirts of Paris,

which is just as grand as Versailles. It has its own gilded chambers. Its own hall of mirrors.

Spectacular gardens, amazing fountains.

And he's in charge in a way of all that. I bet he is. Yeah. The children we should mention their names. It's another Philippe.

Little Philippe juked a shard. And Elizabeth Charlotte. Or Charlotte. And so after 1677, their relationship is struggling. But we need to talk about something that might be a little surprising.

We've talked about Philippe has a man of great flair, and theater and culture and laughter, making this, have we? Yeah. He's also a great warrior. Warrior or warrior?

Oh, that's good point. I mean, technically probably a bit of both. But warrior warrior. Oh, he's a good fighter. He's a good fighter.

He's a good fighter. He's a lover and a fighter. It goes to war. Yes.

“So that's one of the very interesting shocks of the life is that they go to war.”

It's boringly called the Dutch war in the middle of the 1670s. And Philippe has been sent off before, but usually as a sort of observer,

and make sure that Louis gets the glory.

But at one point in 1677, he's in flanders on his own, and the king isn't there. And he's a small village called Castle, and our good friend William III, who's also in favor of boys. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yes. They face each other on the battlefield, and surprise the prize for leap, crowned to him. Oh, yeah.

“So William III would of course be King William of England, right?”

Not yet. Not yet. So in 1677, he's the stat holder of the Netherlands. He's the Prince of Orange. But he will be William, that's in William and Mary.

Right. In 10 years time, he will become William and Mary in this country. So Philippe wins a huge victory at the Battle of Castle, but do you know what he was doing at the start of the battle? Almost.

He was adjusting his wig. The battle started. His men were fighting, and he was still in his tent, which I absolutely respected. I think the men would have respected him for that.

Well, you can't go to battle, we know. With a loose friend. He's a loony. Yes. And what would the weeks have been?

I'm thinking they're dark. They sort of brunette at this point. And quite long. Quite long in curls. But this is Philippe's shining military moment,

and he gets back to Paris, back to Versailles, and his brother, the king, says basically nothing. Oh, no, after all he did for him. It was a very frigid moment. Yes.

And we have a memoir later, who says, the king supposedly said I would have really, really given millions to have won a battle.

Because Louis XIV never actually won a battle.

So he's jealous. Oh, very jealous. And guess what happens after that? They go to battle with each other. No.

Oh, good guess though. I mean, that's the obvious thing. No, not at all. Not at all. Luckily, the love wins out, I suppose.

They never go to war with each other. But Louis strips him of military command. Right.

“So I think in the history of their relationship”

between the brothers, Louis and Philippe, this is really the high point of Louis being a really, I think, awful brother to Philippe and not treating him very well. And that carries on then for the next decade.

He doesn't give him another command ever again. Because I think he's embarrassed, and he doesn't like little brother having done so well in battle. Because Philippe had been, you know, he'd been shot to the bullet of bounced off his armor.

His horse had been killed. He's fighting in the middle of this. He's, you know, he's not at the back. You know, adjusting his weight the whole time. He's there.

He's in the firing line. And so Louis is like. Right. Screw you. And his military ends his military career.

And so at that time, Kings were still going into battle. They weren't expected to be a figurehead at the back. More or less. I mean, it's already moving towards that, you're right.

Yes. So Louis, the 14th does go to battle, but generally stands on the white horse, poses for the painter and then leaves. So Louis the 14th is the sun king,

and the sun shines very brightly. And Philippe is often in his shadow. Yeah. Literally, right? Yeah.

And he has to be. Okay.

“So what do you think Philippe does to find a new part”

to independence from his brother? What is new career move? Musicals. [ Laughter ] [ Laughter ]

Oh. [ Laughter ] Crypto? Yeah, Crypto is big. [ Laughter ]

He sort of goes into finance and business. Oh, okay. He's suddenly very good with his pennies. Yeah. So the other brother's surprising turn, you might say.

Yeah. Someone who was so frivolous in his 20s. Now he's in his 30s and 40s. He develops his land, his appanage, and he builds a canal.

He builds agricultural systems. All right. He makes the land that he's been given, profitable. Doubles its income. And then he gets a big windfall because,

guess what? La grandma was the old eyes. Oh. Still unmarried. And he gets it all.

Really? Oh, so she did like him in the end. Yeah. Yeah. She gives him all the money,

and it's not tied to the crown the way his other money is. So he becomes financially independent. Oh, so it's his private wealth. It's his private money. Oh, lovely.

That's hugely different. Oh, my. So what did he buy? Well, they already had the house. Oh, yeah.

So that was the mortgage loan.

Sound clue becomes even more amazing.

Sadly, none of it's left. What do you mean? Oh, it always-- Yeah, it was destroyed in the 1870s. Oh, really?

So post-front revolutions. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you. Okay. So we've got Philippe now is the sort of business mogul.

Mm-hmm. Heavens. Still married to Lisa Lotto, of course. Lisa with a Z. Yeah.

And Lisa Lotto, Lisa loads now. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So they're, and she values still knocking about in the background.

Yeah. Yeah. So the three of them-- Yeah. Oh, there's three of us in this marriage.

Yeah. Yeah, there is. And by the 1680s and 90s, they do sort of have a motor sub-rando. They do kind of live together.

It works. They've sort of found a way of existing-- Yeah. She's most interested in her letter writing and her dogs. Oh, fair enough.

You understand? What does he do all day? Um, they still go to parties. Oh, okay, they still-- They still eating it up.

Eat a lot. Oh, okay. Okay. They're buried at this. Yeah.

And you mentioned Mollier. So Mollier, for those who don't know, Mollier, is the great comic playwright of 17th century France. He's sort of France's Shakespeare.

He's fantastically funny. And he comes to work for, not the king, but-- But Philippe?

So Philippe is given as his first residence,

the Palai Royale, which is right in the center of Paris. It's right across the street from the Louvre, and they build a theater in the Palai Royale. Oh. And Mollier and his troupe actually live there.

And they do plays there, and it's called the troupe de Monsieur. And so Mollier is Philippe's guy. He also has his own composer, his own painters, his own architects. Often people that are out of favor with Louis XIV, so he's sort of the protector, I think,

of artists who are not necessarily doing mainstream art. Right. Philippe's much more interested in Chinese art, long before anybody else is. Yes, that didn't come in England.

That's 2018. 20 or 30 years later. Mm-hmm. And Philippe's already doing it. So I think he's become a bit of an avant-garde collector,

patron, with his artists, with his musicians, and with his Chinese porcelains, lacquers. Yeah. So he's a collector of interesting people and of interesting beautiful things.

Yeah. There's even a tour pamphlet, a tour guide, a booklet that comes out in 1689 that says,

“"If you're in Paris, you should go to the Palaureal”

and visit Philippe's art collection." Thank you. Wow. So if anything, he's kind of got the best gig of all. Having lost out on it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And Louis never comes to Paris.

He doesn't like Paris, he hates it. Just stays in person. He stays at Versailles, and Philippe is in Paris, having parties, collecting art. Oh, my goodness.

He's been furious. What can you imagine? So Philippe, by this point, was a brother of father, a husband, and a grandfather.

His kids have kids. So he's, you know, does that mean he sort of mellows, and, you know, the end of his life is very, he's doing the crossword and just walking the dogs,

and, you know, or is it still quiet? It's very drastically the older gay couple that does at least open an antique shop. You know? I mean, it's interesting.

His son's marriage is complicated. The Duke de Châtre. That's a tricky one, right? Yeah, so the son who does live is called Philippe,

and he's called the Duke of Châtre.

“He suffers somewhat from his father's dismissal”

in the army, basically. And as he gets older, he also wants a military career and Louis IV just won't give it to him. Because he's afraid of outshining

the dophan, his own son, who turns out to be a bit dull. The dophan is sort of described as fat and indolent, and doesn't really shine in any way, where a shard is smart and talented.

And so he's a cat. That's sort of how he's doing really well. Yes, it's a problem against all the others. So this is where the conflict comes back in and Philippe and Louis fight a lot

about Louis's lack of promotion of shard. Tom, given all you know now about Philippe, how do you think he died? What do you think did him in the end? Cam sandwich?

[laughter] My mama cast. Yes, exactly. [laughter] Or fellow, for tripped up on one of his empties.

[laughter] No, it's quite sad. He had a big argument with Louis. Oh, and the stress kills him. Come on, Ethan.

Yeah, that's one of the stories. Some people say maybe not. But it seems at least it contributed to it. Because in the 1690s, he ate a lot. And he didn't.

He sat around. And he gets redder and redder in the face. And there is a story that he goes to VSI and argues with Louis about shard, not giving, being given a job. And then he's so angry and shard at Louis,

which is incredible if you think about it.

Sharding at Louis, nobody does that. The most powerful man in Europe. Yeah, that's point. And the 14th is unbelievably powerful. Yeah.

And then goes back to San Clu. His house has a heart attack and dies. What we know about the death of Philippe is that the king can't be present. So he had left and gone back to VSI.

And Philippe dies at San Clu. And the first thing that his wife does, as she later tells us, she walks straight into his rooms and burns all of his private letters,

which are mostly from his male favorites. Because that would have created further scandal for the children presumably. Right. Yes, is she protecting Philippe?

Or is she protecting Philippe? Put the Philippe herself. It's interesting question, right? Because obviously little of Queen Victoria's letters were edited and destroyed by her daughter.

Oh, what do they? Yeah, we don't have many of her love letters. You know, we know there's big chunk missing.

“So that's why my PhD shifted directions.”

All right. Because I was planning to do my PhD just on him. And then I realized all of his letters were gone. So. And when Louis the 14th finally dies,

it's his five-year-old great grandson who becomes the next King of France. So Louis's been on the throwing for so long. His great grandson is taking over. So it's extraordinary kind of two brothers.

Just occupy power for a long time, long time. Yeah. And his great grandson is that because the son and the grandson have died. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. So small parks is a real decimator. Yeah. And 1710, 1711, the dophan, and the petty dophan die. Yeah.

But Philippe's son, the Duke de Charde, does become the region to France. So he succeeds his father in the early on title and becomes region to France. And a really good one, too.

For about ten years.

died was that his son, who's the new Duke of

Ollion, offered the Chivalet de Loren

“use of his apartments in the Palais Oreal”

for as long as he wanted. And so he did live there happily not being turfed out. But he then died as well a year later. Amazing. Tom, if we convince you the Duke Philippe deserves

his podcast. Oh, yes. I'm sure he would be very pleased to know that we are commemorating him here. But I feel like, given what we've learned,

he probably would expect a little bit more. I think something more like an opera. [laughter] A bit more resonators. Yes, I feel like someone like Rufus Wayne right

would be a paining it right now. But you want to win, though. [music playing] Well, it's time now for the nuanced window. This is where Tom and I sit quietly

to plan our Masquerade costumes. And check it out, how about you? [laughter] For two minutes while Jonathan holds court and tells us something we need to know about Philippe.

Dolly Art, so my stock watch is ready. Take it away, Dr. Jonathan. OK, thank you. What we've been talking about today in a nutshell, really every royal dynasty in history

has been faced with a similar conundrum. If you have too many airs and you cause infighting of the succession, but if you have too few airs, then your dynasty could go extinct.

So you have an air in a spare, which is good practice. But you then need to give the spare something to do.

Otherwise, he, and in France, it's always a he,

could go rogue and try to carve out a niche for himself potentially challenging the power of the older brother the king. Philippe dolly Art found himself in this position. If he did nothing, he was accused of being lazy

and unworthy of his princely title. But if he was active in politics of the military, he was accused of being threatening. And so it was a sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

So Philippe chose a different path to some of his more aggressive predecessors. He was fiercely loyal to the king and focused his energies away from politics and more into patronage of the arts,

building up his palaces, his gardens, and generally being an additional ornament to the French monarchy. He did his duty in marrying to advance France's diplomatic affairs and in producing extra airs for the bourbon dynasty,

but he also was a source of potential scandal and disrepute for the French monarchy in his fairly open affairs with men. History is remembered this prints as a foap and a playboy, but we need to view him more in the context of his times.

A loyal supporter of his brother Louis XIV, a patron and a collector, and a savvy businessman who laid the foundations for the powerful Olion dynasty that endured for generations.

Amazing, thank you so much. Tom, final thoughts on Philippe? I suppose what an inspiring person to teach you that even if life hasn't given you the most prominent position you can actually make

a heck of a lot of what you get up to, I mean, it helps, of course, if you are,

the second son of the most powerful dynasty in Europe.

But that aside, good to show you, you can still do something. My price is, by antics. That's good advice, yeah. Or inherit your Spencer cousin's vast fortune.

It really helps if you've got a Spencer cousin. Yes, absolutely, which is woman in Europe. Make sure to be a nepoprince with a very connected family. But as you say, a really interesting person because he sort of defies expectations

“at quite a lot of the moments in that, that I've thought isn't it?”

When people want him to sort of challenge his brother, he doesn't. It's intriguing, he's, you know, and he sets the standard for how second sons are then for most of the 18th century. Yeah, and it's the second son problem.

It's something we've seen all with it's 20th century with the British royal family, right? There are tensions there. And I won't say anymore. So what do you know now?

Okay, well, it is time now for the so what do you know now? This is our quick fire quiz for Tom, to see how much you've learned today. Tom, are you a confident quizer? Well, I am, but then I've done pub quizzes, and I can't get anything right.

So I don't know. I like to think I retain knowledge, but maybe I, we've had a nice chat today, I think. Well, it's just, you know what I love about history is the fact that it teaches you the things,

but then it fires synapses off to go, or about that, and where does that fit there? And how does that connect with that? Does that connect, that means that that time was the bit like, yeah, XYZ.

And you did that very well. You were very good at connecting it to other history. So I was kind of doing that to try and impress you. I feel very impressed. I'm sure it would be very tedious for the listeners.

Not at all. Okay, well, I've got 10 questions for you. And we think, these are all things we've discussed today. No, let's see how you go.

“Okay, question one, who was Philippe's more famous old brother?”

Can you, Louis the 14th? Absolutely. I mean, you want to start with question two, what shocking costume did Philippe wear to a ball in 1659? As ship it is.

Yeah. Question three, with whom did Philippe begin a 40 year affair in 1667? Chivalier. What was the chivalier, Lauren? Question four.

And what was the name of Philippe's problematic uncle? Guston. It was Gaston. Question five. Name one of Philippe's two wives.

Enriter. That's right. When we had to add these a lot of question six,

The Battle of the Dutch.

It begins with C, El Castile.

El Castile, El Castile. Yeah, I'll give you that. I'll give you that.

“Question seven, how did Louis respond to Philippe's success at Castile?”

By doing nothing. I just ignored it. Yeah. And then stripped him of his future. Yeah.

She had us brother behavior. I didn't know that his son even become a Duke of shot. That's right. Question eight, how did Philippe gain some independence from his brother? All the same?

Well, he he farmed better. And so made more money that way. But then inherited his success. I remember a film. That's it.

Varm of Billy. Yes. That's quite a different vibe for him isn't it? Yeah. And when they're with a lot of gays, you know, when they get older,

they like to get into like country filing. Yeah. Why not? Question nine. What was Philippe allegedly doing right before he had a fatal stroke

or heart attack? Are going with his brother? He was. And this is a perfect 10 out of 10.

“What did Lisa lot of burn immediately after Philippe's death?”

His emails. I mean, letters. His email.

A flawless run, Tom never endowed.

10 out of 10. Well, I'm proud of myself. It's quite. I'm quite nervous about that. How have other people done?

How did Nish Kumar do? He stood well. He might've got, I think he might've got 10. He got 11 out of 10, apparently. I'm sorry.

I'm sure he did. He got 10 out of 11 with a bonus question. I don't know. I don't know any notes. I want to point out as well.

You have a blank page. All I wrote down was Lisa lotter. And that wasn't even answer I gave. And yes, you would have enjoyed that. As she loved letters.

Yeah. Yes, yeah. Well done, because most of the communities who come on now are making extensive notes. What has you've done that entirely from your brain power?

Well, they're probably stickers. [ Laughter ] Amazing. Well, thank you so much Tom for coming on. An absolute pleasure.

Thank you, Dr. Jonathan. Listener, if you want more fascinating French royals, check out our episodes on Catherine de Medici, or Marie Antoinette for more LGBTQ history. Listen to what episodes on Benedetta Carlini,

the saucy sexy nun, and of course, the Bloomsbury group with Susie Ruffel, your friend Tom. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to your did to me on BBC Sounds to hear.

New episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. And if you're outside the UK, you can listen at BBC.com, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I'd just like to say,

of course, a huge thank you to our guests in history corner for Manchester Metropolitan University. We have the superb Dr. Jonathan Spangler. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you very much.

It's been a fun. Has been fun. We had the terrific Tom Allen Nassie Bouqueton. Durya. Oh, beautifully done.

And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we give another spare from history, the attention they deserve. But for now, I'm off to go and buy a Shepardes costume, and a wig.

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