The Woman Who Died Twice

Hmm, size, and so creamy. Hey, how can a Papa creamy be? Nutella, where from Mamma and father-in-law. Nutella is Nutella. Down here is where the hunters had discovered the torso of a female in the ditch.

Jack, did you ever run into anything like this? No way.

“What day were you out here and what do you remember for losing?”

This was December the second of 2022, I believe.

We was hunting out block of woods that particular day. Well, kind of thought it was a mannequin to start with, it didn't look real. And this area right here, and all around this as well, the trash, the bags of clothes, the tote, the knife, that's where all that was found right here. And your big priority was to find the rest of this woman and find out who she is.

That's correct. It was getting about dusk, it started walking, and got to a point where I'm looking up and the sun's going down, it's shining in my eyes and there's the oak tree, and I kind of looked behind it, and I see a little disturb area that I'm mound. All the remains were found fairly close to the edge of the road.

And at that point, as far as what we knew, there was the female head dart around here. You put out a sketch? GBI had had a forensic artist put out a sketch. According to deputy's hunters found the body in the area of Barrington Ferry Row, this sketch in the GBI, serving as one of the only glimpses of who the woman could be.

I was like, whoa, wait a minute. Like, that looks like Mindy, that looks like Mindy. And I just froze. I said, I have reason to believe that this person is Mindy, Cassotus, looks very like much like her.

I was like, I want to be wrong.

I've never bought one to be wrong, like this in my whole entire life.

I drive through the area shows how dense the wooded area where the woman was found can be. That was on the local news, but I had zero reason to connect it to Mindy. So you get this call from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation Agent. And he said, you're not going to believe what I'm about to tell you? Yeah.

He said that. I think the first thing through my mind was disbelief. I had been told back in December that she had died in the hospital.

“That's what all of the immediate friends and family of Mindy has been told.”

Nobody was looking for a murder victim. They thought she had died of natural causes. What did they think had happened to her? She died at the hospital on December 1st. She's not in the woods, she was cremated.

What do you do? What do you do when you're in a situation and you feel like something is wrong, but also the entire story is so crazy who's going to believe you? And there in reality reports, the woman who died twice. Investigator Jack Frost, now with the Liberty County Georgia DA's office, was one of

the first detectives called to the scene on December 2st, 2022.

The hunters had seen a knife and a tote and some wipes back there. The detectives recovered a razor sharp Milwaukee brand knife, a plastic storage tub with what looked like traces of blood and wipes.

“Do you think whoever brought her out here had to know this area?”

That would be a safe assumption because it's so desolate. It would take five days until investigator Frost found the rest of her body. Authorities said it appeared that the woman had defensive wounds. There's no one that winds up dismembered in the woods that's not a victim of homicide. My name is Lori Beill.

I'm an assistant district attorney with the Atlantic Judicial Circuit. Investigators from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation released two sketches. There were hundreds and hundreds of calls and leads that came in through the forensic

One call came from a woman 500 miles away in Virginia, Heather Thomas.

I was like, "Whoa, wait a minute." Like, that looks like Mindy.

“Mindy, because sodas, Heather Thomas turned out as one of the people that recognized”

the photograph and said this could be Mindy. Heather recognized Mindy because Mindy was married to Heather's ex-husband. And it cause sodas, a naval officer, a lawyer in Jagg, the Navy Judge Advocate General's Corps. Nick had traveled the globe, was deployed to Iraq.

He served in Italy and the Pentagon. He dealt with sensitive cases involving Afghanistan.

He definitely had an error about him of confidence, of, you know, reassurance, but never in

eager to stick away, because you could sort of pick that out from the mile away. Heather and Nick got married in 2009 back then. She was a brunette. Was he wearing a uniform? Yes.

He was in his uniform.

“I was in, I had two different dresses, it was a very big deal.”

It was a happy day. He had a lot of friends and he just knew everyone and he had a very outgoing personality and just was a talker and love to read and just was, it was very different than kind of how I, I was. Things started out well, but eventually after six years, their marriage faded.

I felt like we had grown apart. I felt like he was my best friend, but at the same time, like, didn't have the romance. And in 2015, they divorced. Nucasotus bounced back quickly that same year, he started dating Mindy. She was working as a legal secretary in Washington, D.C., Mindy was the consoment romantic

for a while there, right? Angela Winne and Morgan Paddock were longtime friends of Mindy.

Angela says Mindy met Nick on a dating app when she finally did.

Meet him. That was just her very tell ending coming to fruition. Even Heather was happy. He told me all about it, he was so excited that they met and I was excited for him. Nick and Mindy married in 2016.

Her friend said the couple soon started looking for a home and planning a family. It's one of the things that she wanted, she wanted to have kids. And Mindy became a podcaster. We both were on her podcast. Hello and welcome to another episode of the compelling women podcast.

She just wanted to find the stories of women and elevate them. I'm Mindy, you're host and I'm really excited to share with you another thought-provoking interview with a different compelling woman. She and Nick's life seemed good after leaving active duty, he was still practicing law. I was so happy that she was so in love and just so enamored and ready to move on to that

next phase of her life. But her friends say Mindy's life began taking some strange turns. She once told me Morgan if you knew everything that was going on. Like this is something that would be a like best-selling novel or a best-selling movie. Mindy and Nick started moving around a lot, living in three different states.

She rarely saw her friends, they say, and was so worried about security. She started communicating through the encrypted signal app. We only ever talked on signal. If we called it was through the signal app and if we texted it was through the signal app.

Who's idea was to use the signal app? Oh, Nick. And Mindy said at one point, she was being spied upon.

“I remember her saying, "I may have had a tail," someone followed her.”

Yeah, it ramped up after that. Mindy's life ramped up into a series of stranger and stranger events. She told me they had been hacked by a hacker group. Their bank account had been completely frozen. They didn't have any money at all.

And she told friends that Nick said they were being surveilled and that he told her. We have a security issue now and now we're, you know, we're in danger.

It was according to Mindy all connected to Nick and some classified work that he had been

“involved in during his time in the Navy.”

There had to be video surveillance and a van down the street to just keep watch to make sure the comings and goings of their home are safe. Nick warned Mindy that an undercover team disguised as "tree surgeons" were planting surveillance cameras around their house. It sounded crazy.

It did sound crazy because that does sound like something you see in a movie or read an novel, but again, you're talking to Mindy who's husband as a jag, who has all of this military clearance. By June 2022, Nick and Mindy were living in Savannah. Friends say she was afraid to leave the house.

Did she sound scared? Oh, she was, she was scared.

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As Mindy's friends, worried about the strange events in her life in Savannah, 500 miles away in Virginia, Heather Thomas had been trying to track down her ex-husband, Nick Osotis for nearly two years. I tracked him going to South Carolina, he had said something about Georgia, and that was

always in the back of my mind.

He owed her money from their divorce, a million and a half dollars. A court had ordered him to pay, an issued award for his arrest. His law career was now in jeopardy.

“If he was willing to throw away his license to practice ever, and he was just going to throw”

all caution to the wind, you're now dealing with a scenario where you can't assume anything. So you have to be prepared. I had to be prepared for anything. Heather had a friend who was training to be a PI through him.

She would discover that Nick had been on the move. She would later find out that he had gone from state to state, living in Airbnb's motels. Heather didn't know it, but Nick and Mindy were now hiding out in Savannah, Georgia. Not summer, Mindy had told a friend Angela that she was pregnant. She's very excited and very happy.

But months later, just after Thanksgiving 2022, Angela got an unexpected call from Nick, and couldn't believe what he told her. We called me and he told me that Mindy was gone. Mindy, Nick said, he died from a sudden medical problem, but his details were sketchy. He told her she'd been cremated.

There was no funeral, no memorial. I'm not hearing anything anybody and I need to know what the hell is going on. Because in my mind, you know, Mindy's not gone until I see that she is gone. And I told him that several times, like, I need to see her. I need to see her.

I need to see her. And she tried to reach Nick again, and again, he just dropped off the pace of the earth. It was a very hard and confusing time. At around the same time, Nick's ex-wife Heather had also gotten a message telling her that Mindy had died in the hospital.

I was contacted saying, hey, you know, Mindy's dead. Well, it was a reaction. Or I was just like, oh my God, I felt terrible because no matter what our beef was, Nick and Mind, like, to hear that a woman around my age is now dead, I was sad. And just weeks after that sad news was still sinking in, Heather received more surprising

news in attacks from an acquaintance. This person says, Nick is dead. Nick has sowed us, had died in a car crash. And I said, hmm, so you didn't believe that then.

I'm like, well, something's fishy here.

“But Heather wasn't the only one who heard that Nick had died.”

Mindy's parents received an email from the security department at the tech company, where Nick told them he was working. To Brad, I'm very sorry to inform you that Nicholas passed away late Wednesday evening. As Heather tried to get more details, Googling news sites online, she came across that police sketch, the one that looks so much like Mindy, and called authorities in Georgia.

That helped police make a positive identification.

And once they got a DNA and genetic genealogy confirmation, they finally had proof that

the woman found in the swamp was indeed Mindy Cassotus. Once they figure out who she is, all of these things that they've been learning about the evidence found at the scene all ties in. Investigators could find no evidence of Cassotus dying in a car crash. And they did find was a new driver's license in a new name, Nicholas Killian James Stark.

They tracked him to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where he was now living with a third wife, a tech worker and fiction writer Samantha Coleas-Nec.

He had told her he was a widower.

In May 2023, detectives brought Cassotus back to Georgia for questioning. He told them a detailed story similar to what Mindy's family and friends had heard about being pursued and harassed by unknown individuals, connected to government work he had done. It was different, a couple of different stories and was that there was some fallout from some stuff that Nick had done at the Pentagon. He was a potential target for a terrorist

“group. It was a real top secret stuff and that it was really super sensitive and almost”

like a secret agent type of life where they just hidden plain sight but had to be careful. The ones buttoned down straight-laced attorney and former naval jag officer now looked scruffy. Cassotus claimed that he reported the conspiracy to the FBI. And that's when he says a federal agent came to their home offering to protect them. His name, Jim McIntyre.

I came home on day and when he said that the FBI agent had come to the house and he was serious about what was going on and wanted to be with us both and talk about it. And I was Jim, that was Jim. They showed you any credentials or anything, I don't recall. According to Nick, for four years Jim McIntyre took control of everything in the couple's lives telling them when to move and where.

Jim told you to jump off a cliff. You were going to jump off a cliff, sir. For years, we did exactly what Jim told us. If you want it full access to our lives, he saves, you can't save.

“Thank you, you're living a web of lives. You talk in parallel realities. That's what you're doing here.”

No, sir. Nick Assotus had spun such an elaborate story for detectives. They had a hard time believing anything he said. They began to suspect that he made up everything that he was the author of the email sent to Mindy's parents announcing his death. Complete with a company. He didn't work for. It's kind of like, yeah, we can see through all the laws now.

And this is Jim McIntyre's husband. Detectives began asking him about Mindy's last days. Right around Thanksgiving of 2022, while Cossotus was out of town, he said, Mindy texted him, saying she had taken a fall and it checked herself into a clinic. He was vague on details. Tell me about the days you got caught in the other softs. I got a phone call. Every from him, I don't know if it's something I knew or not, asking if I

could. I don't think it was something I knew, asking if I could come and pick her up that afternoon. When Nick arrived, he told investigators, the doctor gave him bad news. I sat down and he said that he was very sorry to tell me that Mindy passed away so he said, "Man, he had passed away." He said, "I was extremely upset. I thought I was coming there.

You go to this doctor's office, they tell you, "Wow, Dad, you don't ask to see her."

You immediately said, "I did ask to see her." You don't get to see her. Cossotus couldn't tell investigators where the facility was or the names of anyone he spoke to. You don't force to be good for any further to see her. You just take them at the work. You don't let her name. You don't let her address. You don't know how to return there. Whatever you just leave. But if Mindy had died at a Savannah clinic,

how did her remains end up in a swamp? Nick told detectives, he had no idea, but insisted,

he didn't do it. What Nick didn't know at the time was that detectives were already building

“a case against him. I think it's easy for people to think about doing something,”

but I think the act of doing it and then trying to cover up all the loose ends after you've started. It's almost impossible. For starters, when detectives ran a background check on Nick, they discovered he owned a green Ford Explorer. A green Ford Explorer that looked just like the vehicle investigators had spotted on a surveillance video from a remote pumping station near the crime scene.

And why was that camera so significant in this case? Because it captured Nicholas Cassotus's

explorer driving past it going in and out of that area. And that wasn't all. On a hunch,

“days after Frost said process the crime scene, he checked with home depostores, which sold”

that Milwaukee brand of knife. Agent Frost had contacted Home Depot because he had worked another case and was familiar with the brands. One of those knives have been purchased from a store just 50 minutes from the hunting club, with a debit card belonging to Nick Cassotus. Here's a surveillance photo of Nicholas Cassotus right after he paved for that knife. There he is, and you can see the knife right under his arm. And there were more knives. When Frost had

checked out a Bass Pro Shop in Savannah, he discovered the Cassotus had also used his debit card there and bought a knife kit designed for hunters. This is a seven-piece pursuit field dressing kit for animals. This is like the same kit that was purchased by Cassotus. And there is a sort of knives. Oh my god. Oh, I'm not touching the these are very sharp. Very sharp. And then there is also a bone saw. Now with Cassotus apparently tied to the knives and the Ford Explorer,

they subpoenaed records from his phone and the Ford's GPS system. The car records, showing his vehicle and phone traveling down to exactly where her body is. He has no reason whatsoever to be there other than that his dismembered wife happens to be found there when he told everyone else she was cremated. Back in the interrogation room, detectives confronted Cassotus with their discoveries. I mean, here else has a look at the one on the 25,000 acre property

and getting captured on video. Just so happens your phone. Even your car shows clearly where you were at down this long dirt road, it just happened to pass a camera in traction ever movement. We put you and you're selling your life in your vehicle out there in these places where your wife's body

“is found. dismembered with the knife that you just bought. Why did you kill me this?”

I didn't kill me. You killed me. I did not. All that is it shows that you killed me and will continue to show you. It's called a thousand piece puzzle. You've earned some of the pieces that we've got enough to see a very clear picture. But Cassotus insisted he was innocent and pointed the finger at the man he says have been controlling their lives. Jim McIntyre. Are you a legend at Jim Kyojwa? I don't know but I think it's possible. She shouldn't have ever been in the situation. You shouldn't

ever listen to Jim. In February 2024, a little over a year after Mindy's death, Nick Cassotus was indicted for the murder of Mindy Cassotus. It's very difficult for me to believe that Nick Cassotus

by Tag Lab Tobicher Soft behind the internet. It's a master's real. I said, you can't say that

“to Rekohen. You're a master. But you don't believe it. No. It's a fake. It's a fake. It's a fake.”

"Machy-games are just like this story, and when they are done, they will be caught." "That's right." "Safe." "This story." "The whole world will be back." Now, let's go back to the news. Follow and listen to Gone South Season 5, an Odyssey podcast, available now, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your shows.

There are still many different types of videos. Now, let's go back to the news. When he made that gruesome discovery, "Can't I thought it was a mannequin to start with? I didn't look real." "Struin along this swamp, the remains of the once vibrant 40-year-old Mendeca sodas." More than two and a half years later, her husband, Nica sodas, charged with her murder,

was in a Heinzville Georgia courtroom. "We'll begin the trial at this time with the opening statements." "This trial would prove to be unlike any other from the get-go." "My name is Doug Weinstein, and I am representing Mr. Casodas."

"In an unusual move, the prosecution forced defense attorney Weinstein to open his case first."

“"I honestly think it was purely a tactic to try to get into my head a little bit and make me off balance."”

"Mr. and Mrs. Casodas were told that they were targets." Weinstein immediately set the scene for the defense. The alleged killer he says was actually another victim. "Nica sodas is a man who lived in fear. Relantless, all-consuming fear."

"Running for his life." "It's hard for me to ever believe that Nica killed Mendeca." Instead, Weinstein told the jury, "Cosodas have been duked and diluted by the mysterious figure, Jim McIntyre."

“"You'll hear testimony that a man called himself Jim McIntyre, claiming to be with the FBI,”

told them that their lives were in danger." "Cosodas is not a killer he says, more like a frightened desperate hero." "The decorated military veteran, he served in Iraq. He was in the Pentagon." "But prosecutor Lori Bayo says the real Nica sodas is revealed by the gruesome evidence left behind."

"And unfortunately, you're going to hear about the dismemberment." Bayo showed the weapon found near Mende's mangled body. "A Milwaukee, our channel, black sheafed, knife." "But that knife is the same brand investigators say as the one seen under his arm." "That's him."

"Honservience from Home Depot." "On the same day that authorities say Mende may have been murdered." "The state calls Samantha Coyasnik to the stand. Along with the facts and forensics, the jury heard tales of betrayal." "Did you swear?"

"Including one by Coyas sodas' third wife, Samantha Coyasnik."

"Yes." "She believed she had married a loving widow, but later learned that Mende was still alive when Nick first started messaging her." "She had no idea that he was leading the stubble life." "I don't think words will ever capture how I felt, but I felt if I had to choose some words,

Samantha also told Jersey's Nick wanted to quickly start a family.

“"I went to a preconception appointment right around the date of her marriage, yep."”

"Nook and I met at Naval Justice School in 2008." "When retired commander Cameron Nelson described the Nick that she and others had once believed was an honorable, proud patriot." "And I was scheduled to deploy aboard the U.S.N.S. comfort, which when she received a serious cancer diagnosis."

"Unfortunately, I wasn't able to go on that deployment." "Cosotus," she told the jury, stepped up and stepped in. "Nook immediately volunteered to take that deployment so that I could focus on treatment." "But that same Nick assorted," she says, "also betrayed her trust." "When he told her that his financial accounts had been hacked, she landed money and even gave

him a credit card." "How much did the defendant charge to that credit card?" "Approximately $198,000." "Has he ever paid a penny towards that debt?" "Not a penny."

"The man Cameron thought was a patriot.

“Now it seemed like a calculating con man."”

"And we decided that it was just not sustainable to continue to allow him to borrow money." "Please raise your right hand and take the news." "First wife Heather Thomas testified about her own betrayal with its court order for Cosotus to pay up on their divorce agreement." "Did the defendant cooperate with the divorce obligations?"

"No." "Did that cause any kind of hardship to you?" "Of course." "It put me through a lot of emotional stress."

"Did he ever comply with that court order for the $1.5 million interest in the attorneys?"

"No." The jury watched that video of Cosotus's Green Ford Explorer, less than a mile from where Mindy's remains were found. "And that camera captured that vehicle, was that correct?" "The order can't be exact in camera."

“"Thank you, Special Agent Tracy Sand said.”

He wasn't just sifting through physical evidence. He had been on a hunt for a star witness." "Did you ever make an effort to locate Jim McIntyre?" "Yes, ma'am I did. There was only one in this area. I'm in the Savannah area."

"And this McIntyre was definitely not an FBI agent." "An old gentleman, a man used to company that sold dental implants." "Could you identify any connection between that Jim McIntyre to this case?" "I cannot."

"It's a powerful circumstantial case against Nick Cosotus.

That only one man can rebut." "The defense calls Nick Cosotus to the Santa. Please raise your right hand and take the oath." "For more than three hours, Cosotus repeated to the jury. His story about the mystery man who he insists controlled every detail

of Mindy's life and his." "I gave Jim McIntyre access to literally everything. He had access to our home. He had all of our bank accounts." "Why would an accomplished attorney listen to some guy who just shows up and do whatever he says?"

"Well, that's the million dollar question, right? Why would he do that? All I can think is panic?" "The defense offered no pictures of McIntyre, no records. Just Cosotus's testimony." "Do I know reason to doubt that he was who he said he was?"

"And Cosotus claimed he was only in the area where his wife's remains were found, because the manipulative McIntyre had told him to go there." "Did you kill your wife, Mindy Cosotus?"

"I absolutely did not. I would never have hurt Mindy.

Did you dismember her body?" "No, absolutely not." "Then what about that knife cradle under his arm?" "Cosotus said it wasn't about murder. It was for home improvement, a broken screen."

"I was having a very hard time keeping the netting on it and keeping it secured up there, so I was looking for something that kind of long and thin." "What is Nick's strongest defense?" "His strongest defense is it's entirely circumstantial. There was zero evidence presented at trial of how Mindy was killed, and frankly, how where Mindy was killed, they don't know."

Attorney Weinstein closes defense with this reminder to the jurors. "The state has an incredibly high burden to meet, 'cause they have got to show guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and they haven't done that.

As the trial wrapped up, the Mr. Man Jim McIntyre can't find a person that doesn't exist.

“"Never appeared in this Georgia courtroom."”

"I submit to you there is no gift." "He killed her. He took her from everyone, a bright light, kind, who had natured, a cementer, Mindy. She deserves your attention." "This case is about her. Look at the evidence and come back with what is the only appropriate act." "Go to you all charges."

Nika Sotus and his attorney at Hope to convince a jury that he was incapable of killing his wife Mindy, but somebody else was." "It is not my job to figure out who killed Madika Sotus. That is the state's job. It's a huge job. It's an important job and it's a high burden." "What's the motive for someone else to kill her?" "Well, again, we go back to Jim McIntyre." "That's the only person that could possibly, that's the only person." "The mysterious Jim McIntyre."

“Prosecutors say there is no Jim McIntyre that he doesn't exist. Do you have any evidence he does?”

"I have no evidence that Jim McIntyre exists." "Do you have a picture of it?" "I have no picture." "Any kind of documentation that showed that he worked for a federal agency." "All that we have on Jim McIntyre is what Nika's told Mindy. If I had any way to prove that Jim McIntyre existed, you would have seen it at the trial." "Why should anyone believe Nika Sotus's story when he was a liar?" "He lies a lot. He told some big lies, but nothing like murdering your wife.

I just refuse to take the leap of because you lie about certain things. You're a murderer. I just, it's just too far from Nika." "Even prosecutor Laurie Beio admitted that despite Kessotus's inconsistencies, Jers might have doubts about his guilt if you look at him on paper. He looks like Prince Charming. "My mom and dad would have said, "Oh my gosh, he's a wonderful catch. He looks fantastic. So why wouldn't you believe him?"

But Beio says Kessotus has been fooling people for years. He gaslighted everybody. Not stupid people, not people that are unaware. And they all bought it."

"Including Mindy," she believed him. I mean, there's no one disputes that Mindy never left

the house. That she was terrified and that she stayed home every moment of her life, afraid that if she left, that she'd be killed." The real story says Beio was much more mundane, because Sotus was hiding, she says, "Because he didn't want to pay his ex-wife, was Nika Sotus gaslighting his wife and making her believe that their lives were in danger when in fact he's just running from a debt."

"You know, that's possible." "I mean, he's a prosecutor. He's a lawyer. He might be able to convince

her that." "He also knows how to handle the legal system. So there's a million and a half

dollar judgment against him. There's all kinds of ways to get rid of his debt. You don't need to live a miserable life for five years because of a judgment that you can't pay." "But why kill Mindy? Why do you believe Nika Sotus? What's the motive for it?" That was the hardest question to answer, but Juri's want to know. It was my argument to the jury that everybody said Nika wanted a family. He wanted kids, he really wanted to have kids,

“but so why kill her? I think you found out she wasn't pregnant?”

"In fact, Mindy's death certificate said, she was not pregnant." "Lady's jelly, please be seated." "Juri's took just a little over an hour to reach a verdict." "It's why understanding that the jury has reached a verdict." "Count one, malice murder, guilty." "Count two, felony murder, guilty."

"Before sentencing, Mindy's friend Morgan Paddock spoke directly to Kisotus." "She loved you

“and trusted you to tell her the truth, to protect her, to live out your marriage bells,”

and yet you were the one that she needed protection from." "The judge said that Kisotus

to live without parole." "Why did so many people believe Nika's Sotus?" "You know,

all I have are questions from this case, right? Just quite don't have answers. So many people, college grads, professionals, career-navy officers believed everything that Nika and Mindy told

“them about why they were living the life." "And I think it's because when Nika would tell them”

something, they believed him." "The people in his life are still struggling with a betrayal." "Is that hard for you then to think that you were married to this man who then

“killed his wife?" "The thing that I struggle with, I think even now, is the fact that”

survivors' guilt is very real." "Out of the two of us, I probably had, he probably had more reasons to perhaps maybe come after me." "I trusted him with my literal life, and I believed him. Mindy's friends now accept that they were all betrayed by Nick, but they hope Mindy will be remembered, not as a victim, but a woman who saw the light in other women and tried to capture that in a podcast." "And it was beautiful and it was special and I was talking to a friend

and knowing that she had a platform and she wanted to use it for good." The compelling woman podcast is written and hosted by me, Mindy Casotus. Thank you so much for listening

to the first season, and I promise to be back with another season as soon as I can.