CIA Chief Breaks Silence on Time Travel Abilities

He goes, "If you are stormed, die in your separate foxholes."

His name is Ralph Moat Larson. He served in various roles all over the world, some of which he can't even speak about today.

“What's the most on the brink of the world has been that you can talk about?”

Well, he's been shoulder to shoulder with Putin. He describes working directly with NSA director Michael Hayden, CIA director George Tennant, and even briefing former president George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. But while he's worked at the highest most illustrious levels of international diplomacy,

that is the least interesting thing about our next guest. In 1991, I went on a pilgrimage to Monathos Greece, and I'm sitting at this, I fell asleep, sort of napping on this stone chair facing the church. And with every step, I'm taking the time as going back in time. It was as if time was evaporating,

but I wasn't aware if I could wake up or get back to my old world, because I was going back in time. He claims to be a time traveler. He says that he left his 20th century identity behind in 1991 to go live as a monk in Mount Athos Greece in the 14th century. I became a recluse up there, but I burned my hot thump there,

like all the things a recluse does, you know, I learned to fly. And when you're flying, you're spiritually open. He time traveled back to the medieval era for months, eating, walking around, socializing, and sleeping in his physical body in medieval Mount Athos Greece. Now I'm sure you're wondering if I mean time travel in the metaphorical sense.

Our guest stated multiple times to me that the reality he experienced in medieval times was indistinguishable from his current waking reality. According to him, not remote viewing or astrily projecting himself there. This is all of this feel as real as this interview is. If seen your CIA time travel whistleblower was not on your bingo card this year,

it wasn't on mine either. But here we are. But if it can't get any more interesting than that, it does. Our next guest ran intelligence and counter intelligence for the department of energy.

I learned some of this nation's most important secret to DOE, not CIA.

DOE does stuff that, man. And if you know anything about this show, we are obsessed with UFOs and think and kind of know that the Department of Energy has a lot to do with managing UFO secrecy and crash retrieves. So you better believe I threw literally every single UFO program related question at our guest today. I even coordinated on the questions with my friend and UFO whistleblower David Grush.

Fellow YouTuber, UAP-Gurb, an author of UFOs and nukes, Robert Hastings.

“Do you think that we have propulsion modalities that transcend chemical combustion?”

Do you think nothing happened at Roswell? Have you ever seen a one of one material? I'll let you assess our guest's answers for yourself and whether you come out of this interview thinking he's just a savvy former CIA case officer running circles around us. Or whether you think he's being genuine is up to you. I will say that for me, this was hands down one of the most thoughtful and mind-blowing conversations

on metaphysics, fringe science in the nature of reality that I've had on this show. So without further ado, here is all four hours of it. Former CIA and Department of Energy Intelligence Officer, Moscow Station Chief, Time Traveler and Religious Mystic, Rolf, Moa, Larson. The existence cannot belong to me in life.

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ketone IQ for sponsoring today's episode. I'm here with Ralph Moat Larson. I am so grateful for this interview. I've read your book, a state of mind, faith in the CIA. One of the most remarkable books I've ever read. It's really fascinating because it's interspersed with stories of real life, espionage, of kind of moments where the world pivoted and you literally see timelines shift, you're in the oval office, talking to Bush and Cheney, and that's sort of thing. Interspersed

with that are some very profound mystical experiences. So why don't we start off with just

“why did you write the book to begin with? Thank you, Jesse. It's pleasure to be here.”

I'm admire of your work and I look forward to telling my story in the context of all the stories you present of people who have things to offer that really expand or understanding of reality and of faith. And I wrote the book because I wanted people to benefit from my story, which is really my relationship with God. And I like people to think of it more as a relationship than as a religious book or and it's not in fact about that. I don't I don't proselytize or try to

convert people to a specific religion. My story started as a little boy where I was aware of the presence of God. And the presence of God that I that I was aware of was something I felt that need to develop. And I saw God as even a child as a creator God and a personal God, which meant I could communicate. So we open with a little prayer. And I like to try to keep a continuous prayer

idea with God, from always interacting. And there's an arena. The reason I entitled my book

a state of mind of faith in the CIA was a state of mind refers to a desire to be close to God. John Paul II. It's a paraphrase of him saying the hell is not a place, which is an interesting concept to be figured out days and for no it's a state of mind. It's a state of mind of being separated from God. And all throughout my life I had a sort of a fear of being distant from God or not being close enough to God. But it wasn't a traditional thing. I'd go to church and get money.

It was more like in my personal relationship with God since God knows all things, God would be aware. And when I would pray in the way we started, I got responses. And ultimately evolved into a destiny. I felt my destiny became tied to my relationship with God. My destiny was to fulfill God's wishes through my life and my experiences. And that set up certain conflicts with, I call my secular world of CIA, which I devoted my whole career to, started the military.

I went to West Point and spent six years in the army. It was vicious time in 70s on the Czech border. And then transferred over to CIA. So that whole story, that whole experience is had their own role in national security, et cetera. But also in my relationship with God. And the faith part was understanding my faith as that relationship with God. Not is what I called myself for what people thought of me in religious terms. But in my relationship with God, how was it

developing and was I fulfilling God's will through my actions and thoughts? And what did you end up doing at the CIA and throughout your intelligence career? I think a lot of people,

people have with, you know, kind of rigorous credentials. Yeah, I think that's really important. So

“in my CIA career, I started as a in Europe, just what we call a European officer. We had different”

areas of the world we were in. That was where I started. But I got quickly an arms control. And then over the years, I seem to gravitate. I didn't think of this as things went on as being coincidental, began to converge with my spiritual developments. More and more towards war and nuclear war collapse of the Soviet Union. I did two tours in Moscow in the old days and the Soviet days. I came back. I was what we call our chief of station in Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet

Union. Of course, that hope that gives me some credibility on my spiritual experiences. But they were,

they were my credibility as an intelligence officer. Then I was always seemed to be at the threshold

of history. Like many, I'm not unique in that, by the way. There are so many of us that have been observers of history, helping to make history in some small way. And I was extremely fortunate in my career. Moscow ended. We did nine tours overseas, aged two, three years. Under cover, sometimes deep cover, through the whole experience. And ended the whole thing, which I don't think was a coincidence in the Middle East between 2011 and 16 when we served in the Middle East

for the last five years. So between Europe, Soviet Union, Middle East, we saw the whole world served as CIA officers. My wife also worked most of that time in CIA. She's been her own book, called Story of a CIA wife. I'll close with one thing. I mean, people have different reactions. Well, the first day I walked in CIA headquarters. You see the stars on the wall, it makes a huge image. The stars on the wall are CIA officers who fall in the line of duty. They can't put their names

to the star. There's a book that has that code book that tells you this star here in the is this

person. People who lost their lives serving their country overseas. And of course, I never wanted

to be on that wall, like any of us. But right next to that, the stars on the wall was this large bold imprint into the marble walls of the CIA. When you walk inside the big building, the old headquarters in Virginia, and it says, John 832, you shall know the truth and the truth I'll set you free. And I thought, wow, this is really quite extraordinary. The CIA is, you know, secular organization has this new testament of light verse on the wall. And I wondered at the

“time when I walked in the building, whether I would be satisfied that that's what CIA was all about.”

Or are we true seekers or not true seekers? And that's the ultimate limit to us. When we don't seek truth, then we have another agenda, we do bad things as CIA or intelligence officer or army officers or anything of light. Do you find that at times the CIA has not sought truth in the past? Of course. Of course. I mean, people are people who organizations or organizations. The problem with giving organizations such powers as CIA has is you on the positive side. You're going to

accomplish great things on the negative sides. You're going to do very bad things. And especially when you're doing them in secret. You have some interesting stories that you talk about in the book of being in the Oval Office, you know, giving Bush advice, giving Cheney advice. Do you want to give a couple of examples there of just stories where you kind of helped out or, or, you know, advised and kind of very high up American national security context. Right. You know, my career breaks

down at the three phases. Really, the first phase was between when I started 1983 to 1991 with

“the collapse of the Soviet Union. That's what we sometimes refer to as the good old days,”

which was espionage in the shadows. Like the books you always read, the classic espionage books

of running spies and great stuff. And I became really good at that. Then suddenly, boom, 10, almost 10 years into my career, we get with almost exactly what you hit with 9/11. And after 9/11, I was like, I was actually in the language training to go to Asia to become as chief a station of a large Asian country when I saw on TV that the Twin Towers got hit by terrorists. I'd been on the director, director of CIA staff the year before preceding 9/11

as a associate director of central intelligence for military support. So I was a staffer supporting the director who could friend of mine, wonderful director of my mind towards 10 it. And we knew that we were going to be hit 9/11. We didn't know where. And I'm not in the school of belief, and I know that it's a valid way to think of it,

I think that's in a problematic way to think of it because I don't think we could have prevented 9/11.

“We just have to give the credit to the terrorists to some have been long to terrorists.”

But it changed everyone's lives in the future of the world. And that was the intent of the terrorists, including my little life. So I pulled me from my language training in George Tenet made me head of what they call the weapons of mass destruction department in the counterterrorism center, which was the stop terrorists from acquiring biological or nuclear weapons. I mean, that's a, yeah, it's a, if the, you know, future of the world hinges on any job,

that's the job. I did say to George Tenet, what I already knew well, because I've been on a senior staff. I said, George, isn't there anybody better for them me for this? How did he respond when he said, you know, hey, can't you define it? Oh, it's a classic George Tenet response. Well, I said, great leader, a great leader of men and women. He said, hey, I got worse news for you. You don't have any people yet. I went from three people at that meeting that, that had been

“assigned to me 250 over the next weeks. And then he said, but you were behind the eight ball,”

and he explained why, which is still classified, which meant there was a plausible reason to be worried that Al Qaeda might obtain a nuclear weapon, which was, I can say the basics, which was they were negotiating with Pakistani nuclear scientists to try to acquire a nuclear weapon that could use in the United States. This was something as George said to me, we can't fail on this. We're going to fail. We're, we're like athletes playing in sports, team sports. Sometimes we

fumble, sometimes with the other team scores. We can't let them score on this. We can't let them do this one time. It take out the White House or Congress or something. And so you're just going to have to make sure the president knows everything we know when we know it. We met as a group and a lot of this is in my book, of course. We met every day at five o'clock, and we just pulled everything together raw. Nothing was going through the normal formats. All our information, we briefed the

director. And when we had the meeting at five, it usually lasted eight or nine at night. And we're just going around the table. Everybody's sharing everything they know with everybody. And everybody included, usually the FBI director, Robert Mueller, who of course I also got to know very well. The NSA director, Mike Hayden, was part of the group. And just a number of people around the Washington area who needed the know, somebody would pop in from the National

Security Council, Stephen Hadley, part of Stephen Hadley was often involved. And everything was briefed

raw. The president was told everything that night. First thing in the morning, he was briefed by

Bob Mueller and George Tenett together, the FBI and CIA directors. And then we would come in at

“Hawk. And I would go in and I outlined some of the most important moments of briefing”

the president when it was something extraordinary from my area. And I felt an immense responsibility. So the answer, the short answer to your question is, I would brief the president when there was a possibility we were going to get hit with a biological or nuclear attack because something was developing. And he needed to know because usually it was something that we couldn't, we didn't know exactly the timing. And we weren't entirely sure of the, the, the, the, the, acturacy or the

providence of the threat. But we knew he needed to know because we don't want him to read about it

with us when it happens. And for example, probably the most, the most, most important of the whole

of my whole experience with the president was when I briefed him that right three weeks before we invaded Iraq. So now we're talking in 2003. We obtained information that a notorious terrorist that my people were tracking. His name was Abu Musaab al-Aqawi. He's a famous jihadist. He was head of al-Qaeda in Iraq once we later. But this is before the invasion. So this information is very privileged at the time. And I'd brief the president several times on him and his network

and how they were trying to obtain these weapons. And I came in. I said, Miss President, I've bad news. The only people in the old office were me, George Tenet. And George Bush, George H. W. Bush. He was in a wheelchair at the time. So I had, I was an amazing site for me as a citizen. And I have to say to your listeners, you know, W and his father and George, I mean, that was it in the whole office for an hour. Wow. And I have to tell you, he's American, I goose bumps.

Yeah. And everything I'd briefed the president, you know, I all I had from dealing with everybody dealt with at that level was they were incredibly dedicated to serving this country. They're incredibly dedicated to doing the right thing. All the things you hear, the president is very smart. He remembered everything from the previous, I don't even know how he did it, frankly. He would recall the fact. So the previous time I talked to him, it was a month

He's in this camp in Northeast Iraq. And I remember this is three weeks before we invaded Iraq. So I, I said to the president, he's here and I had the overhead imagery of the camp. And I had a nominated board with all the Jihadist terrorists that were working with him on the top. His picture is mugged. And president, who already knew him when he said, "Ralf, what would you do if you were me?" Now, when I briefed the president, I hope this is reassuring

to your listeners is like, "Try to make it." I did it as a citizen like I'm not putting any of my

“spinner influence on anything I'm talking to president. There's no raw agenda. That was my key”

test. I had facts. I had things to say. I never went beyond the, and that day we had an internal

discussion, exactly what I should say to the president about what I'm describing, including that we, we shouldn't do anything. We should let this play out and I was too close to the invasion. But when he looked at me, he said that I started to say what I was told to say. And he knew me too well. So he said, look, I don't want to, I don't want to know what they are telling you to tell me. What do you think I should do? What were you told to say? I was told to say,

we shouldn't, we shouldn't bomb it. We shouldn't attack it because it could, you know, the invasion, and I was obsessed with this terrorist, I'm obsessed. And I knew that it was an unhealthy

obsession. I had been known to be slightly obsessive in work. We're not other things. But it turned

out that, you know, my look betrayed, because I was so zealously telling him, "Here he is, here they are." He is, "No, I mean, what would you do if you were me?" You're telling me not

“to do anything, but you're saying that something else. I think you're thinking something else.”

So I looked at the director and he just gave me the, like, he asked you the question. He didn't ask me the question. He asked you the question. You answered the question. And then I looked at the director looked back at the president. I said Mr. President Obama. So nobody said anything. He was went on meeting. He didn't see none plus by the whole thing or anything. We're driving back in the director's car to this agency headquarters and he says, "Well, I said to him,

"Well, should I have said that?" He asked you, you told him, "I have no problem with it." He goes typical. Now, when you get back to our building, you make sure you tell everybody what you said. And of course, there's no one thing I like to, I think I emphasized in my book. The right and the wrong and who's the blame is so much less on our minds when we're doing things than people think it is. Like we just trying to make do the right thing. Sometimes we do,

and sometimes we don't. Yes. Speaking of this pivotal moment and at least from the kind of public perception, intelligence failure, wrongdoing, people think of the overall invasion of Iraq, which is not for the audience at all what you're talking about with this targeted bombing of Zerkawi. They think of that as an intelligence failure because they think of us as having tagged Saddam Hussein

with weapons of mass destruction when he never had any. Maybe at most he used biological weapons

and Kuwait, which is horrible and he was very bad guy. But maybe this was this kind of huge waste of money lives and created this kind of void or vacuum for which ISIS ironically to actually take root and which kind of ended up radicalizing the region even more. I'm sure you were thinking deeply about this at the time what do you think happened there? Struggled with whether I should include this, but I consider resigning when we invaded Iraq. Really. I noted that briefly,

I didn't I didn't get into it in any easier against it. I was against the war philosophically, but in a couple of some of my colleagues were also feeling it was going to be disaster. The idea

“that we didn't know that it would turn out badly. I think most people at the most experience knew”

this was going to turn out badly. Now the decision to do it at least I believe and I can't say if there's a lot of let's split the decision of views on this. I don't see any intent for the administration to deceive anybody that by saying Saddam had WMD and he didn't. It was a failure, a massive failure to conclude that it was based on bad sources, which is usually the origin of all bad decisions and intelligence. When you have dubious sources or bad sources, these were both

sources that didn't know much and were overrepresenting fabricating information we call it with you making up information. On that basis, we made a terrible decision. It is my view.

would have been the same because we couldn't control Iraq, like we couldn't control Afghanistan.

“And it didn't take, and I have a chapter in my book where I'm talking to the vice president,”

Dick Cheney, or I got an exceptionally well. Also, where he just called me in a week, a week and from the White House, I came in on a Sunday to talk to him about why are we losing the war by the summer of 2003. This is six months after our invasion. But I didn't say what I was really thinking. Sorry, Dick, but if you don't know what's going on here, I can't help you. And then I was really like worried that we didn't seem to know what we were up against. And that was the

real shocker to me of Iraq, wasn't that we made a mistake in the invasion side as bad as that was. Is that we didn't know we were getting into? What's the most on the brink the world has been that you can talk about? Well, you know, the Soviet Union had collapsed.

“And the biggest worry in Congress in a Washington's mind, which we had almost no”

inkling of in Moscow where we were actually doing the work was that one of these nukes went in up in rogue states or terrorists. And the US government at that time launched a heroic, really heroic effort with the Russians to try to account for every nuclear weapon. The so-called suitcase nukes, nukes are just missiles that come in and destroy the world. That's really the extra question. My biggest worry with the world will blow up, literally. There's nothing

fun about trying to stock terrorists with nukes. There's certainly nothing fun about trying to recover nukes in a country that's just lost control of its entire empire like Russia had in 1991, 2003. So I'd say that answer two things and answers kind of what the big, there are a lot of things to worry about in the world. There's biotechnology, there's AI, there's nuclear, but nuclear weapons are still for me, the king of the hill because it can happen that fast and we won't even be

a word if we're not really serious about stopping it from happening. Yeah, we're in a scary world right now where you have all these kind of, you know, this asymmetric warfare and all these capabilities. And then all this ability for if you're China, Russia, or some sort of larger adversary to gain plausible deniability and act through sort of rogue actors. But I want to back up and just

talk about you've had these kind of mystical downloads. And I want to talk about the first one.

You were kind of a nihilistic youth at West Point. What happened? Well, you know, there's a point in my life when I was, I had combined my interest in knowing truth and to an extreme where I was receptive to whatever was input, I would get to the point I pushed myself to an extreme. I had had experiences where I had dreams that came true and I realized that I started thinking about consciousness and subconsciousness and these were things that were affecting me in terms

of being receptive to the idea that there's way more out there than we see in logic and reason or even if you add intuition to that, right? And so at West Point I did these dream experiences. I talked a little bit about the book. They were kind of childish in a way and not very scientific. But then when I graduated, I went to Fort Knox as an armor officer. I was going to go to the

check border as an arms guy and they started to become much more vivid. And the first briefing I got

“actually in the army, a secret briefing was on the Russian nuclear threat in Europe at that time”

because I'm going to go out and be what they call the covering force. We were literally the closest American forces on the border to confront the Soviet ports. Now this was a 1976 so we're talking eight years after the invasion of Czechoslovakia. So everything is very real and palpable and the Germans were depending on us to defend them and the whole world in a sense. And part of that briefing was the idea that we had tactical nuclear weapons we would fire on them if if they invaded.

And I was shocked to me. That was my first introduction to nuclear weapons as in a context of war, which is nowadays when we listen to where this was gone full circle, we listen to Vladimir Putin talking about using nukes in Ukraine. We have to think about this idea of nuclear weapons. The tables have been reversed. Back then we needed them because we were afraid of being invaded and he's using them now what he regards to be if Russia's existence is threatened by NATO and the West. He would use them

too which is really what he said. So the point being at the time I'm in this kind of mode and my

the four horsemen, the apocalypse. And so I had this incredibly vivid dream in the midst of all

“this at the Fort Knox where I dreamt that I was in a battle like a battle of Armageddon.”

It's the first time the mystical things turned. I would call turned religious or religious history. What I became a big advocate or hobbyist in eschatology, which means the theology of the end of days which I kind of now I hobby in it because it's such a started then the roots of it. I didn't understand that at that time and it was just such a vivid dream. And in the dream these numbers were peered so there were no voices. I couldn't hear anything and the whole everything was black.

So I'm in a dream state or scape in which I can't see I could sort of smell like you know the accurate smoke and things like that that was around me and I was aware of these forces gathering for great confrontation. And in that sort of context of I would say in a apocalypse it didn't necessarily have to be at the time but I saw these numbers roll out in cubes and it all was around 747. So the number 747 becomes a lifelong number for me like a mystical, a mystical number.

What does it mean to you? To me well I don't know actually which is one of the reasons I wrote

“the book I don't know but my I think it has to be a divine number has to be something related to”

what I later became which was a watchman for terrorism and you know these kinds of things in my professional life and my religious life I was getting more and more interested in understanding what these numbers would mean so I've done everything from read, Nikola Tesla's obsessed because the numbers were to 369, 12, 18, 27 and 40. So they're cubes. So first you get 747. Then these cubes kind of are circling in the smoke. They were cubes and the cubes were these numbers

36. Well the three and the six were one cube but they kept spinning so it could be three or six

six were nine or both right because they turned right. I would never realize that if I hadn't

seen it you know it sounds silly because of course they could but it was not a and then the rest of

“the well all all of course except for 40 a variation or a multiple of three at three cube”

27 you know 39, 12, 12 tribes, 40 days and 49. I started to describe what had to be religious meanings to the numbers. I but I didn't understand why I was receiving them like what was the point you know I began to think as as I lay it out I tried to do in a very systematic way in the course of my book when I would see the numbers in why in subsequent you asked me the first time and I have to say a word of my wife before I'll say how the numbers get completed because that

wouldn't be till I was in Germany after the course when I met my wife she was a German just girlfriend were curousing she was his nihilistic as I was for lots of reasons and we were just party animals like we had no interest in like long-term hook-up or what became three kids and nine grandkids and then our life 54 years up to now and she's in many ways the opposite of me just practical get stuff done to this day I mean we're like real opposites I'm philosophy kind of all over

the place she's like on the feet on the ground get you through that you know with our kids

everything was always that way and it served me great because she I had a tether she'd always

grilled me back in but that night she was really disjointed and she woke up because she's always joked she's an average and I never told her this dream I didn't want my girlfriend to think I was completely nuts right yeah logical thought when you're 19-20 of course and but she wakes up she like just had a really strange dream I said what she said well we were at the swan door which is the town next to the town I was garrison was his onberg Germany and swan door was less than a half

higher away and there's like almost a large church on a hill there Catholic church and she said how is it and by the church now we had gone that that was our our favorite disco tech was in that town and we met all our friends there three four nights a week it was like you know rubble crowdsing party time as I'm saying and she says it was night I was alone you weren't with me I'm

never there without you she was never in that town without me and she said but I was going down an

alleyway along the church I knew which we knew the geography of it you know it was coming down

just some lights on the church on the side I saw your desk and I approached the desk and it was a chair behind it and the desk was facing me and the renumber cubes on your desk with numbers on them whoa I said I started almost hyperventilate but I didn't want to say anything I said do you remember what the numbers were by any chance she's well how could I forget of course there's like I

“woke up but all the numbers that's why I just woke up because I remember it was three six nine”

no way yeah it was the same number same numbers one additional number 49 so now just to say one last thing on my wife as a witness like like for me if for no one else for for me I needed I needed this

it's almost like a sanity check I said well I told her that of course about my dreams I never told

her that before that to this day 54 years later I will 55 56 whatever it is 1978 so when it went that started she she said well I don't want to read your book I don't want to talk about this anymore and she had that kind of a reaction to it but it doesn't in any way diminish she knows the truth of it she knows the truth of all of it because she was a witness to all of it all the everything in my book that those were the earliest mystical experiences were around numbers and war and the final

sort of bearing testimony to the truth because you have to again I stressed everybody don't start thinking you're having like these things like you need you need very deep authentication very deep testing of your own mind or they are things like this true or not true I just want to assure anybody listening to any of this that I put myself through all that in great detail at great depth test test test you know in the end you start to know is this of God is this of God that's

an essence of it if it's of you if it's of your imagination if someone else putting your mind it could be anybody did she have any prior knowledge of the numbers that you received in your download before she had heard her well and the other part which you know you know and I had to

“actually test my because remember all this is happening in the non-intermediate I couldn't look anything”

up but right after my you know in the same time I'm having these dreams two other things that now inform me that's all they were they were for me a perfect stranger walk up to me in a fish rest it was a long john silvers I don't think they're around anymore there's a fish rest around like of like a fast food restaurant modern long john silvers but you go there for fish which I rarely did I go McDonald's or but one of our friends says so the four of us were gathered at the

four musketeers or the my friends at the west point graduates who all went to Germany together and all experienced all these things I'm saying and party together we're sitting in the restaurant this guy walks right up to me who I describe in the book and says read a zucule Daniel revelations and walked away we all look they said like okay I mean you don't there's nothing you do with that it's just like that's very strange but it's calming at the same time while the other stuff

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“assembly and disassembly of the m60 tank engine now you have to understand at the time I'm”

very realistic or whatever but I'm also very I've always been very creative and always wanted

to be a writer even at that time so I'm imagining and I was so bored in the class I was like that's what I realized I'm not very good at tank stuff you know I mean I ended up being you know I learned forced learning I was I was good at my profession as a tank commander and I've the troops and in the army while I was in it but I you know I didn't really like it and this this was the worst of all which was learning about maintenance related things on tanks so I'm writing

I'm noodling and so I decided oh I come up with a name for myself as a author I'll be Frederick Wolf so I wrote Frederick Wolf now I was an honor of two things I admired at the time you know you're again young this is like typical the way I was thinking of the time Nietzsche who was my favorite Frederick Nietzsche, Frederick Nietzsche but you know Frederick that adaptation of Nietzsche who I'm obsessed I was obsessed with even at West Point I go through some stories of Nietzsche

“made it because he fit this idea of you know to know yourself you have to free yourself you have to”

free and even of God you have to free yourself of all constraints on who you are and come front yourself as to who you are which was also a theme at that time of a lot of the novels fiction I like to read particularly Herman Hess at the Hess at the time in Stepan Wolf so the wolf came from there Frederick Wolf ah the man searching for his true nature's true character I'm willing to lay it all out there as it you know again brask a brash guy and so then I said well be my first short story

I'll write it here in this class will I decided I called it on suicide suicide note why did you choose well I thought it'd be I chose it because it seemed like a really dark deep theme to write about it so I imagine the note was the note I would leave if I actually

“committed suicide so it was like like if I left a note now because I now I don't you know I don't”

want to encourage us thinking to anybody out there and and I came to my senses so to speak

but I was getting into the novelistic and in fact the irony was I've never in my life found

the slightest bit suicidal ever ever and I tribute a lot of that to my my faith and belief because I I'm also an inventor optimist even even in the future of the world even with all the dark things I've talked about war and apocalypse and Armageddon and I'm actually very optimistic about it because it's all tied to this god I know is a loving god this god is the creator god means everything around you nature you can see god and how wonderful it is it's this personal god

you can talk and interact with who loves you who want you to love him so how can you not be an optimist if that's your perspective so I had that perspective even that because I hadn't forgotten the childhood things in my in my life that made me feel that way but I'm gonna go down this dark road because it's interesting and one of my inspirations was Camu with the philosopher who was obsessed by the question and and muse that maybe the only really relevant question to think about was

life worth a living because you have complete control of your life from that very basic way of looking at it and I and I so I wrote this thing and and that's when I had these dreams you know and and at that same time this is all happening concurrent with what I've talked about so I realized I was getting in way too dark we're a too deep it was and then the dreams were

exacerbating my my thinking again never got negative or self-destructed that's the funny part

and I'm convinced I could have kept plowing down that deeper deep that tonal deeper and deeper without ever hurting myself or anybody or anything but that's not necessarily for other people something I would have the ice right but it all culminated in the next day I thought I got to clear my head let's go play golf so we were all terrible golfers but we like to go hacking a golf at for knocks they military golf course right on the base so we went golfing and you

could look this up if you need to because I couldn't for years I had to actually look up on the

be a stormy day with thunder and stuff but we went anyway you know being a reverent and at one point we reached though I'm trying to get shoot to the hole straight over this cemetery and you of course the ball hooks just an iron hooks into the cemetery and I you know feeling very

“not respectful just a bad mood let's just put that way so I remember climbing over the wall like”

go over wondering where the grave is the ball and I saw it's sitting right centered on this very very small gray oval graven the ground you know and walk up to the ball it's right centered on the ball and I wonder who's trapped my ball kind of that literally was what I was thinking like again really the tempting fate you know I was really tempting fate and it says Frederick Wolf German soldier died November 5 1944 I know I do this guy was but I know that my birthday

is on November 5 1954 whoa and I just brought my club and completely freaked out by the experience at the time because I realized there's no way that could be you know coincidence that's the night where I had the 747 dream that's fascinating did you try to find anything out about this yes and I did and it was he was a German soldier who after World War II was sent to Fort Knox as a prisoner war and he was involved in like a little mini German uprising over conditions there

and he was shot by the guards you know and killed and then he's of course buried there I don't

know why wasn't his body wasn't sent back to Germany I never found that level of detail but it

became also kind of this like very interesting connectivity because I was going to Germany well what do you do you think there's something apocalyptic going on because you yeah this guy goes up to you he says read Daniel Ezekiel revelations all of those books are kind of notably apocalyptic you're dreaming of this sort of Armageddon like thing happening well yes and and the ways I would tie that together would be so the first apocalyptic well future dream

now we were talking to Zekeel Daniel revelation I mentioned the person who walked up to me at that time I that's another thing I did I filed that away and I didn't think about it much more

but it was always there you know I kept it there it's gonna serve a purpose later I didn't think

that at the time actually but it did and one of the purposes was after 9/11 I realized oh I get it I'm a Zekeel's watchman it's my duty to warn the people which is really the quintessential CIA officers role I mean it is and very modest way I don't want to make this sound

“too huge humongous it's just that's what we should do if we don't do that there's not”

much purpose for what we do and I realized it was much more specific in my case because my first dream which like Chronicle in the book was Sadat's assassination September 6, 1981 where I was there I was on the scene when he was gunned down on a parade feel the interesting thing about it I wouldn't thinking about it saw I didn't even know the event was taking place the day was assassinated and of course given the time change between where I was at four plus Texas at

the time as an army officer it was right before I joined the agency and where he was killed in Cairo it was the exact timing I woke up in the middle of the light having had the dream and I remembered it in every detail watching in slow motion while gunman pulled machine guns out of their cloaks and shot him dead and a number of others and I pictured this thing so I couldn't verify any of that until the next day can no internet no and it was reading it in the papers

did all the details line up what happened every detail including the timing was just impeccable and I did do one additional thing I woke was there an example of like a small detail that you

“dreamt of that was corroborated I think I think well the main the most important detail which I”

was tying into 9/11 was among the it's never been entirely established but it certainly was

in my mind that's how a man's hour here he was of course that pity head of al-Qaeda later the chief of al-Qaeda was Bin Laden's lieutenant right he was one of the conspirators in that that pulled it out and I I mean weirdly remember him and another guy named Safaladal who was a number three guy in al-Qaeda at now he's the head of al-Qaeda so two of the people I pictured in my dream became the heads of al-Qaeda after Bin Laden were killed was killed and you

it's like by you can if you google it you'll see they probably were so it's like you

remote viewed the event or something it felt well felt like that and it felt like it because it happened at the same time and the more important thing is or by located or something yeah well I

“had no I had no reason to be thinking of this this is the other I think compelling thing many”

experiences particularly as you get into the virgin marion things that that I'd later happened me later there was no logical explanation why I went in that direction except for the warning theme the warning the idea that was building up to a series of service a watchman service a messenger let let's try I want to go through the numbers themselves because I think they're fascinating and you know I think of seven four seven you know we were talking earlier actually before we

started rolling you have the seven story mountainous by Thomas Burton and he is one of many mystics where the number seven is this extremely important number I just had this guy on Peter Leventa and he wrote a book called "Stairway to Heaven" which is a book about celestial descent traditions across history the america bar the you know the ziggurat the heccolo the re you know all of these things contain seven levels even as so tear quarters like rose

“accretionism you have to go through seven levels and leave a garment at each level or whatever”

it's always discarding or passing a test at each level and so you know I think of seven as sort of

you know something celestial right then then four is the ascenter conversion into matter or something and then seven is like the you know the reissent into the celestial and so maybe there's something around fallen angels or fallen celestial beings you know the fall of man or something that seems really important with that that first number yeah yeah well I I think that's entirely you know not only plausible but I I think the the track Iran is is probably true I mean it's hard to you just have to

continue to explore it and see what insights it it renders that's that's the bigger challenge is never to think of it is a reach-take conclusion yeah a continual journey and almost a non-ending journey to infinity on on these subjects yeah but to understand the CD associations may be more important than being able to analyze the association completely thoroughly because if you the moment you completely analyze it you're sort of done with it

it means you've close your mind to other possible interpretation and since we're in such a broad this stuff reality is really what it is to exploring a reality as very broad where it's not a lot of evidence we have through our normal application of language logic in reason which is why again numbers help because they take communication in a far more objective level if you're but most people including me we're not not that fast-style at using numbers in the ways

that the real geniuses can with numbers and the people have defined for us what the numbers mean just for physics I marvel at what some of the great mathematicians have produced and in the insight they've gotten from just looking into things that seem to have no purpose

“much less something with the purpose so I think I think you're on to something there”

well let's keep going so then you then you have three six or nine is three maybe I mean I have you thought of the holy Trinity you think of the father so I mean how well we go six or nine six you know the amount of days you know before the earth was was created maybe in Genesis or something is nine mean anything to you well it's three three you know it just continues a pattern of where there's a emphasis of three you know 12 being lots of things like

12 tribes and 12 tribes yeah oh yeah 40 days and 40 nights of course the temptation of Christ among 40 years for the the Exodus from the Jewish people under Moses I mean there's just lots of religious significance but I hesitate that like you've done well I mean you know far more than I do but the way it ties into other fields another potential explanations that broaden really from religion one thing I've done with with ongoing satisfaction I have no conclusion is

reach out to physicists that I've had number of physicists contact me read my book and and those are very interesting or I've given my book to some other physicists and through my time at the Department of Energy I spent three years of the head of intelligence and counterintelligence at the Department of Energy between 2005 and eight and then beyond that especially when I continue to

nuclear stuff but expand it at a great deal the OE is an incredible organization we have the

an amazing ride for me to get connected to all these incredibly smart people who could probably

“be doing anything don't have to work at lower pay in most cases for for the US government doing”

things but do it because they want to serve the country too so there's all those kinds of people out there that I get to know but the physicists that I I've given them a challenge which is kind of what you're doing with the numbers I said look I you know read my book or read my book I now want to know more than ever what's the physics behind mysticism they have to be physics behind it it's not something that belongs to a different reality it's part of our reality it happens

in this world therefore there has to be an equals MC it has to be a quantum or relativity

activity space time all have to be taken in account as to what happened and wouldn't how to

explain it do you ever gotten a satisfactory answer nothing that I would describe is answering the question but I have gotten the kind of encouragement I need that is not a silly question that's kind of what I'm looking for it's not I mean the most interesting scientists whether behind stine or you know heisenberg has an apocryphal quote that's often attributed to him where it's like the first sip of the science you know the bottle or whatever

leaves you an atheist but when you get to the bottom you know their lies got yeah and you know so okay so that's good so they don't think it's all you know that's like a bad that's a bad framing at least for for inquiry and you know what Einstein said what he said one of no God's thoughts the rest are details well that's a great quote for my stuff that's a really great quote for somebody who's you know theory has basically become the modern scientific paradigm

“right and I think almost all the great physicists or I would say were great ones that I”

certainly have become hobbyist of I'll never quite grasp the full math and science aspects

of the course but like Paul Dirac you know people like that people I encourage people to to which I used to do when I you can imagine a a lay person like me not a scientist or taking on weapons of mass destruction and trying to stop terrorists from getting bombs and biological weapons and one of the biggest skeptics you know skepticism I counter was the Russians were really good I went to Moscow to lecture them and brought a bunch of people so they could stop

this stuff in Russia in other places and it's one of the old Russians I knew from way back when we were catching and recruiting and catching spies hey you know Ralph we know you you know you you don't know anything about this stuff so what why why you know I says why brought all these other people listen to them don't listen to me I'm not I'm not if you notice I'm not telling you

“the science they are yeah I'm pulling it together because you have to you have to establish”

science is irrelevant without the concept understanding the consequence of science and I used to say that the DOE scientists quite often if you can't explain this in the layman's term and make it relevant to real people like everybody listening to this if we make it irrelevant to them in their lives and it we've lost our sense of mission so the idea with with with with the idea of the physicists I asked them I passed them I would call it jokingly come back to me with some

plausible explain the biggest roadblock I've encountered from talking to real men of science on this or women of science is they say well the problem we have is you almost have to create alternative um not universe is per se but space dimensions in the universe in which things occur that we can't experimentally measure right and that becomes our problem because good physicists will say anything I can't experimentally confirm or measure is not and and I would say this is me talking

so I may be listening could easily contradict me on this if they know more but I've reconciled quantum and relativity you know is a problem of scale nothing else it's just to me it's the idea that you're measuring things at two different extremes but the underlying reality there's no conflict yeah it's the same reality measured in different scales so we have to start thinking of when we have these mystical experiences thinking of them as things that happen at scale but maybe there is no

time and maybe there's not even motion maybe the idea of an angel of going between two different places where we put wings on angels right so tradition is this is a medium of coming from a world at rest into a world of motion and needing to somehow cross over that divide that barrier it's just the way I think of it so I haven't I haven't solved any of these things but you asked the question

explanation and the truth this you know everybody you know I come from UFO world you talked about

“your history at the DOE and we will get into some questions there but you know I think a lot of”

people and you know in that world think of the truth as something to be disclosed like you can say it

prosaically and I don't think that's the case at all right like you know I always find it interesting

you know the same Thomas Aquinas was like working on his sumo theological this like rational explanation of of God and I think he had this conversion you know kind of moment while he was in mass and it was like this mystical experience and then he like stopped speaking after that there's a there's a scientist think his name is Mishka Gregory Perlman and he's like in Siberia right now and he he's like known in like theoretical physics world is like one of the top like best guys and I've

even talked to some people who were like you know if anybody's like sitting on like a you know theory of everything that like Mary's you know general relativity and quantum mechanics it's probably this guy and like he I think he claims that he has like a unified theory and he just won't talk and so there's there's there is this something very interesting about you know

“it's so and you know maybe the truth is just so hard to like grapple with and there's”

there's a translation function between like what a what a person knows and then what they can even describe to you know the world like that's a that's a really hard thing um to to to do you know to there isn't some Archimedia and point where like everybody instantaneously gets it all once and it's just the semantic truth but um yeah anyways well the only that add to that because I think that's so important too is is as you approach unification of like understanding the nature of all

reality and some equation of form or something that could be a spressed through physics or mathematics you are in fact getting closer to what I would describe is what I think of God as which isn't the head of the Catholic Church or the Protestant Church or it's the entity of the creator god in the personal god on the creator god level maybe if you know on the religious side of that the idea of God yawan you couldn't even say it so you you develop a term that you couldn't even

print out so it gets a little bit backward like a problem and who if he is at some level where you can no longer talk about it that I tend that I think that tends to happen when you reach a point of insight that just you're you're overwhelmed by the profundity if that makes sense yeah what you're looking into I want to switch gears yeah whatever at all this stuff but um you have had direct experiences with the virgin Mary yeah and that is a really rare thing for somebody

with your background and in your position to say can you go into those experiences and describe them

as sort of viscerally as you can yes for me it's the most important part of the book

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when I was in Greece I was I went on a pilgrimage to monothos Greece which is Northodox mountain

“that's something akin to the Vatican in Greek Orthodoxity Orthodox world it's 20 monasteries on”

this amazing peninsula that juts out by thustle making up in northern Greece right and I got a

three-day diplomatic visa to go with diplomat the diplomat's club and I but I did it with a with a calculation in mind of a work related reason pretext which was I had been given a tip by a Greek very close to the president of a prime minister of Greece about a month at monothos who was actually a Russian intelligence officer who was beg getting cover and changing his identity to go on a mission to the US on behalf of Russian intelligence and would be undercover at a Russian Orthodox

church in the US to be to do god knows what but he had had you know just wonderful cover

to be in the US so it was it was an amazing tip I didn't solicit it or it came to me they came to me

“with the tip and handed me the file so I could read it and then then I resolved to go up there”

and investigate through direct you know direct contact so you're looking for this spy is going undercover as a monk in Mount Athos and then you go to Mount Athos and then what happens you I'm I'm going through an all night experiencing an all night service at the the small Catholic kind of monastery d_n_e_c_o_ which was one of the monsters on the hot on a huge cliff and I was just they were very they were very relaxed on you know how how I was an Orthodox to begin with which

the monks all knew I was just a visitor I just described myself as a Christian and so I go out and I'm sitting at this I fell asleep sort of napping on this stone chair facing the church little church on the hill it is stone courtyard all stone courtyard very severe very severe looking thousand year stone thousand year walls a thousand year throne that I'm there was only chair I'd call it carved in the stone wall I'm sitting at it it reminded me of the scene out of like

Conan the barbarian or something you know it really was that kind of a feeling and with the waves rushing crashing against the the sea crashing against the walls wave a 100s of feet below me you know and beautiful to the absolutely gorgeous you know made amazed mesmerizing ball me day so I'm just relaxed sitting there falsely that's one of these things immediately

“went into this dream state I realized this is one of those like that's what had started”

happening I knew when one of those men it was not a usual dream so your description of was it time travel I mean I would say it's a possibility I mean I don't know I can't but I felt like it was

something happening and first you go to 1800s Paris yes I go to 1800s Paris and I I just walk

down these 18th century Paris streets and I'm walking in the rubble yeah I just want to see what's going on that's kind of a typical meeting and and that's when I encounter what turned out to be the Virgin Mary didn't call herself that but I just felt I just felt that without an introduction in this one open door was door was opened and it was like all the others it had like a waist back it with both the soiled condoms and things you know and it looked awful bloody easy and I was thinking

oh this is awful and I looked at the woman and she just looked at me with these employing eyes just like the suffering of the world was on her weight on her shoulder were what better place to be to feel that with the exploitation and things of this place and it just the gravity of that hit me because I'd also seen a scene or like a road toned priest is of course this is coming unbeknownst to me you know kind of at the height of the sex scandals and the Catholic church and things

too so I don't I'm not tying these things together but it just it's very depraved and I felt I felt the depraved I felt nauseous in my own dream and then yeah I walk outside the the rubble and this guy made this guy outside and he says basically your odious maximists and go go a tone for your sins kind of conversation I have with this guy Harry Hiller which was one of the characters from from Herman Hess's step-in-wolf and Harry Hiller basically encourages me to go to Manotho's to

sponge myself or find clarity or salvation or whatever the whatever I could find.

confident that this is the Virgin Mary in this brothel because of it was a conclusion I reached

not at the time but only after it became a pattern if that makes sense so at the time I was an entirely sure who this old woman one other than she didn't fit and I could feel the suffering which became a common every encounter with the Virgin Mary it was an element of the weight of her suffering for the world for the fate of the world in particular for the fate of people who are suffering for the pain and the agony of others this is the common feeling I had each of the

experiences but I didn't know that at the moment I just knew that wow this is certainly disruptive yeah you know so when I continued the dream did you feel love coming from her or

she didn't particularly feel love I felt more pathos like like like her ultimate empathy for

everything right and all suffering right all of all things there's nothing so much directed

“towards me what I think I put in my mind more than something she advised she gave was the idea that”

I man I shouldn't be here did she say anything to you no do you have you thought of the symbolism of her being in a brothel where all this kind of you know the corrupt you know horrible deeds are being done or whatever like do you think of that as somehow significant? Well yes I mean certainly not at that time again but certainly looking back I realize how it fits so well into the subsequent encounters and the pattern being okay you want you want an image you

want images of what I'm what I mean by suffering this is the this is the image right what's what can

be worse there's very few things that are worse than that certainly the Holocaust and there are things that are worse than what I what she she showed me are the reaction everyone should have to this or her reaction to this reality of the world that I was seeing with her at that moment and sort of stumbled upon so then when I went back and time it became kind of a then it became kind of a disappearance of time to put me in the right state of mind to do the the exploration I needed

to do at my mouth though so the rest of the dream sequence that outlined in it's called the bizarre world of Odeus Maximus in my book because it's how bizarre I felt when I knew it was still me but I'm going now into this I have to adopt this cover of a character so to speak which is a CIA thing anyway so I should but it was so it was so unusual and unique to me that it was really scary I wasn't sure I could not be that car I wasn't sure that it ever be wrong again

so then I'm going back in time as I'm traveling as you would in those days to Athens and then from Athens to and with every step I'm taking the time is going back in time and by the time I get the monothos at the capital city which I sort of landed in when I came off the boat in real life now and to where I'd had the dream a couple days ago getting there I saw that town again but back in back in the 1500s you know and I go there and I present my credential so to speak at the capital

to say if you will the governance people there including this guy monk Gabriel who was the head so Harry Hiller is this character that's in 19th century Paris is I leave him you leave he said

“but he says you are odious Maximus you must go to Mount Athos you go to Mount Athos and then”

all of a sudden you're like a few hundred years earlier in history so like 1400s 1500s and you trapped up there essentially trapped up there it was there a gradient of time moving backwards from the 1800s to the 14 or 1500s or like all of a sudden you're in Mount like when you get to the gradient it was a it was as if time was evaporating it's a way like with each step you could like it got that was what was so say very unnerving was going back in time but feeling and

happening as it's happening and it's getting and I was trying to adjust but it was getting too difficult so I tried to limit any contact with anybody like on a ship or on a culture as I'm going back because I didn't want anybody saying anything that would think I was some insane person and throw me in some you also don't want to alter the future forever with I didn't think that

“variable or something I did not think that but that's a good thought I did not think I remember”

not thinking anything profound it was like pure survival but I remember being a pure survival mode including I would say my mind I was I hoped I wasn't losing my mind to the point where you know whatever the the say inspiration was to adopt this way of thinking of myself is being a very

reassuring myself but I would have to play this out so I get up there and I describe this and

along in the short of the monks take me in even though they argued against it but this Gabriel he saw something in me and he said well we were here to like Peter said open our house to those who needed this this man needs it so I get assigned to the monastery it don't at the NSCA which is not where I happen to be when I was having the dream do all this all of this feel as real as this interview so it feels like any sort of real experience that you've had it's indistinguishable

pretty much it's there are things that occasionally in all the dreams like the the sadot dream and I had had other you know dreams also which I lay out pretty much all of them that I

“can remember in in the book I had dream of basketball game dream even through like when I was at”

teenager and when I did I knew immediately a qualitative reality in those dreams was close to reality

but I could usually still understand it was a dream if that makes sense so in this dream I still knew I was in a dream and I could still distinguish the rough I was from the character going back in time but otherwise outside of that it seemed totally real to the point where I don't think there were historical like you've seen movies where there things in movies that shouldn't be there at historical time you know didn't see telephones in the 16th century or things shouldn't see you know

were you wearing your clothing from and it changed it was changing it was going back time so your clothing was becoming more and more appropriate for the time well I also found myself

and I won't remember specifics on this trying to find more appropriate stuff so when look like a

space traveler back in the 17th century you know I was trying to like like a person would do to try to fit in I was trying to alter my look and things like that and I was getting a beard because I didn't shave you know I remember those kinds of details so when I met the monastery then it got deeper and deeper into what monks do which I learned a lot about through the dream but also through what turned out to be two trips there spending a grand total of a month in Monathos that's

“at the end of the story that's what it consisted of because I got of course very into this”

understanding not just a dream but then the encounter that followed which was the idea that you live a life in a monastery a lot of people just sort of quickly jump to the conclusion that's world of Asian you just want to avoid the world you want to go off in yourself it's very selfish so I understand people when they say that about monastic lifestyles I don't feel bad in large measure because I had this dream where I experienced it in such an intense level

because for some people see only where they can pursue God it's only where they can be close to God it's only where they can get themselves closer to God they don't give up on the world in those cases they're not doing to avoid the world the most they're doing it to get close to God sometimes it's a consequence of those other things when you do that so I felt that and so when I experienced the the life up there was not experiences I had felt spiritually before which made again this was

a new reality I was learning from it wasn't just adapting what I already knew and living it by careously as a monk it was something very different through the character I became in the monastery I was growing I was developing I became a recluse up there you know I learned to fly

“you know and I remember that and I thought the other people have had the flying experience”

that's a different conversation begin at one day because I because I've had reactions from people read that part of my book and said oh I can I've done that I've I've been able to fly you know for me flying was a manifestation the more I think about it I see it as a reward loss of some in a way well we weren't you're not asking for but it's a tribute to opening your mind and when you're flying you're spiritually open you're just in a different

state of consciousness than you are when you're just praying if that makes sense and what you we talked about even before the interview is what I didn't expect to find was as I went through the whole experience here is the flying monk and the I burn my hot thump there like all the things a reckless does where you do you were burning your hut yeah I read yes and so this is happening across months or day we in in the dream it's months in reality it's the course of the dream

which I that's that's easy for me to do years in a dream but this in my dream stay it was weeks days went the weeks went the months and so you are aware that your reality has drastically shifted from 20th century roll yeah CIA case officer right to it was trying to catch the spy on man out those two it's like you entered a portal and you are here for days upon days and you are going

thing about it was I knew at the time I had the dream as I was dreaming that I was dreaming and I

might not be able to get back that was the scariest thing was I felt trapped and I wasn't sure I was going to wake up and and at one point I told one of the emissaries so this father Gabriel who I got that kind of know to sent this other young monk called Ivagrius and he would come and meet me and I remember my encounters with them and he was encouraging me and we were talking all the time and I remember some of those I just put a snippets of them in the dream and I frankly

forgot some of them but I just knew that was a really life it was my only contact with a human being when I was in a reckless stage was when I was doing the flying about and he told me yeah the other

“monks had seen me and wondered if it was real so I remember that stuff it was so so palpable but”

then I of course had three dreams of the new dream and now we're reaching the culmination of the side would call the fruition of the dream the point of the dream was won't follows I the farther I'm getting away from myself the farther I'm detaching my my faith and God from a selfish interest in me that's when I start flying that's when I start my spiritual growth is happening when I'm being less selfish when I'm joining sort of I call the general universal salvation idea of

mankind if I'd call it that and the more intense my spiritual experiences were getting it within my dream to the point then I had three dreams within a dream and very quickly because one and they're very intense one night I go to sleep in my dream and I have a dream where I'm in a middle of a big room and we all have to go pick numbers from a little click a barber shop number

“thing you pull the number oh I got my number two digit number oh I don't remember the number”

it's too bad it could have been great to add to the number collection I was so frustrated I forgot the number what it was two digit number and everybody got a two digit number that's right well that's a very strange way more than 20 or 99 of us here what's the what's the what's the number didn't nobody explained anything nobody talked it was just murmuring walking around then I then I woke up like well the barber shop clang with the number I pulled the number up

I woke up from the dream and within a dream that startled me so then in my dream the next day I go to bed I go to sleep in my hut and I have another dream second dream now in that dream now I'm standing in the room again it's a big round room with seven doors and I'm looking at my

number and I just had this wild thought which I'd never thought religiously like until the dream

I thought man what a bummer I mean we're all gonna go through these doors I guess and these numbers must be and we were in close they they issued close and I had fine close I remember with brown swade shoes yeah and some people were with rags and I saw all women in the corner who again I thought this is the Virgin Mary the same woman I met in the in in Paris I didn't know so I I don't want to overstate it but I thought is that her and I saw I'll see

what happened I kept my eye on her but I wanted to go up to anybody or say anything it was like everything in this I was just like trying to survive that's really I was trying to survive even in my dream within the dream and then the doors open seven doors open and we had to walk through the doors and I remember thinking the heretical thought like in a way of doubting God again what if my numbers like right under the ones that are going to heaven I'm going to hell

I mean imagine missing by one number but it's kind of stupid thought you like if the situation

were real that's a real thing if there's such a thing is heaven and hell right which I've never

believed after this and other things that there's such a literal thing as that I think heaven hell is in your mind but partially because of this so then the boom wake up again startled by this the doors groaning and having to walk through them and then the third dream is walking through the door and I remember it very carefully just to go I reread it you know last night actually where I'm standing at the beach and brought it all back to me really clearly there was a dark dark night

“not a star in the sky I remember that but the sun I was bright light I thought with the sun's”

not up but it was a bright light on the other side of the and I remember thinking of the contradiction that the sun's not out what's that light wasn't the moon there's something very bright on the other side of the sea shore and it was like a river kind of thing a river like a wide river and it was turning dark and I could tell well we were all being encouraged we knew no one's saying anything and I was saying it's you had to walk across the river to the other side

right took at that time I this must be salvation the salvation test of salvation for all of us

oh this can't hold me with my brown swage shoes and I but it started the work and I said well if I put all my effort into my faith maybe I'll make it to the other side and then people are I heard plump like it was a terrible sound like somebody come into the water and being swept away in the depths you couldn't see below except like an inch below your shoes and I was wondering if I've stupidly think of my shoes are getting wet I remember thinking

that I was like oh these shoes are getting a room they're gonna be stained I feel like that and

“and then you know sure enough I get halfway across and I think I got to do this I can make this”

and then the old woman's right next to me and she stumbles and loses her step and I instinctively just tried to grab her arm to hold her up and we both went swept away and I woke up the virgin Mary well I don't what you interpret what I did probably because it tied into the but then here the final scene is that I wake up like this is the I'm done with the drain then that was getting swept away was the final part of the dream so I wake up at the throne sitting there and

and I realized I saw a light in the church this was like this from distance maybe we're gonna say six seven yards or whatever it is 15 feet to your windows over there right that's where the wall of the church was with the windows staying glass kind of windows I had and I saw this red light moving along the thing and I got up out of the chair and moved toward the window and it got all the way up to the front you know of the church the altar and was sitting there burning you know

“red and now I think but the lights were related the light and the the red light of course”

of the other one the red light of Mary so I touched all the Mary's together in the dream this must

be this but I but to be clear I had never seen the virgin Mary so I saw the dream image

ever and then I saw the light which I took to be that I took that light immediately when I saw I talked to monk the next day I said I saw this mysterious light in the church after it was closed and it moved from here to here but I thought he would just say oh clearly I read dreaming something I did well I was awake I said but he said know that he said this it was like a name is monk Timothyus and I ended up going back to all that I'll seek him out and he ended up taking me back

to his cell that they call it where they live they're a little like bunk and in a stone place really really austere you know rugged kind of living conditions and gave me he had like 10 books on his

“shelf he gave me three of them about off those because you said I just want you to read more about”

this because it seemed like you saw that for a reason he goes there are monks who have said they've seen the this is the light of the virgin Mary going down the thing and I just seems like you might have seen that I don't understand it he was very confused by it because he said you're not even tested me so you're you're not even orthodox all right he said no no went through that he said well I don't know but I'm not going to doubt it that's when he gave me and I kept those books for

I still have those books when you wake up and you're at the church and you see the red light yeah and maybe that's somewhat symbolic of the virgin Mary is that in 1990s or is that okay

that's that's 1991 okay so you basically you go back to 1800s Paris then you go to Mount

Athos Mount Athos is days turned into months you are Odeus Maximus this monk who goes through all these kind of ascetic protocols and you know you're fasting and you say you're burning your heights since then then I finally requested permission to go away from the monastery and just be a recluse in the wild in the wilderness you know like there's a there's a tradition there are some monks go out and they're just separate themselves from everybody even their fellow monks

and then only time they see their anybody as they come into get provisions or medical emergency or something I mean they don't completely abandon all ties to civilization if that you call that civilization they just limit it as much as possible to get even closer and closer and closer and in fact they ended up meeting a recluse who I feel was like kind of a full circle of experience that I actually met a real recluse the second time I went to Mount Athos and I'll gave me a book

and tremendous conversation we had about the apocalypse I mean here normally we'll get together I'm sitting on a curb you know with this guy and talking about things and he's asking me who I was and where I worked and I have a family back on this thing and he said I haven't seen anybody in a few weeks this is kind of nice he's carrying bags of he's bearing some some lettuce and one bag a plastic bag and the other bag he's carrying a bag at you know he's going back

to the wall in the woods but anyway stopped and jatted me up and the next thing you know we're talking

for a couple hours on turned out into the apocalypse and everything else and it was amazing like

it meant what I went into this room it was almost like I needed this full circle which is so much

of the story from me where the things are explained later so when I at the time I saw the light of

“the Virgin Mary I mean I honestly didn't think that much of it it was a light maybe it was a light even”

the image of the old woman maybe it was her maybe it was not her that so I had all those things you know the dream itself is the way you describe and that has its own it's its own story in a way but it wasn't until two more things that happened with the Virgin Mary that it all came together as fascinating and you also then come to realize that there had been Virgin Mary apparitions all over mount out at this point okay that was so but later yeah I had talked to people there a

later everything was later including the story of the Virgin Mary being on the mountain that I'd learned and wasn't till 2006 or seven 2007 that I heard some of the backstory of the history and lore that included the site and that's so I'll save that because at this point I don't know any of this including I wasn't ready at that point prepared in the sense of thinking of what happened to me so there was no predisposition for example it actually meet the Virgin Mary

or understand what you know like what has happened historically with the Virgin Mary some people asked me that well when you started to have your Virgin Mary experiences where they in any

“way because you read about you know lords or fat them on all they say well I honestly knew nothing about”

any of that at this point and this was 1991 what did you find out later in 2006 and seven about the Virgin Mary showing up at Mount Athos because I think it's very fascinating that there's some historical corroboration on other people are experiencing what you're experiencing spiritually in this specific location well I find out that there's a Lisa legend lore that they they have at Mount Athos that the Virgin Mary after Christ was crucified and rose from the dead

was traveling along with other Christians at the time or apostles around in ships and it's what and of course they were all based in Corinth and places like that so she was on a ship on its way to see of all things a pot of John at Potmos and also to go to Cyprus because Lazarus supposedly fled Israel when the Romans started looking for him because they wanted to execute him as being this person who rose from the dead very disruptive idea that Jesus was going around

raising people from the dead right it was the reason why they both the Jews and the Romans saw the early Christians they called the way at that point they weren't called Christians as being the saboteurs disruptive to to order and in society so they're looking hunting them down actually

“so he fled apparently and I didn't believe that story either until I believe I didn't like”

like maybe it's true maybe it's not and there's actually if anybody listeners goes to to Nick a C.S. Cyprus I urge you to take a look at the Lazarus' tomb which is supposedly

and Cyprus was where he went and became the first bishop starting the church in there so Mary

was supposedly traveling on a ship and it was a big storm which that part of the Aegean is famous for that going all the way back to the Spartans and the Athens having huge summers sort of ruined fleets and everything shipwrecked sheet fleets and she got blown on the island of Monathos and there's a monastery on the place on the site where she supposedly landed when a shore called Ivaron on the it's on the west coast of this peninsula at that monastery in the south

part of Monastery and I've been to that monastery but it wasn't till this 2005-6 period when a month told me the whole story about this little icon in a hut right on the shore that this is hut this is supposedly the spot where she landed at that time also wow this has got way more and of course I've sent my book and gotten letters back from the Vatican and also from from the Orthodox Church hierarchy in Istanbul Turkey and the letter I got from the Orthodox Church was really priceless it

said basically you know we wish you had become one of us and still joined the Catholics but we

still consider you you know a friend a friend of ours and your book is in our library and his eminence is read it and and all that because I really appreciated that because I I've said to many people the the accident of me being Catholic Orthodox is not what any of this is about right and I think they appreciated that Mary belongs to the world not to Catholics or Orthodox Orthodox in Monathos they consider her the whole object of the veneration of that the mountain is

out there but women to this day cannot go on Monathos step foot on Monathos because it's

“dedicated completely to Mary at the exclusion of all women as I said this is not I think this is”

veneration it goes too far but the point of it is to emphasize how fundamental Mary's history and role is how other visitors or pilgrims experienced Mary that explicitly just like you yes they are at Monathos specifically yes yes and and I can't like a numerate you know there are examples and but I know it's not a unique phenomenon so much so that I would say what's was well I come having a new Jesse this is highly unusual I have an easy conversation on these subjects

right you can do that most people can't what's been very gratifying is that I never bring it up

this subjects any of these subjects almost because up the just you know obviously the intelligence and all history and all that I do but any of the the religious or focus on God with anybody who doesn't bring it up and then I usually bring it up and and I found some very fascinating takes or or additions that people have to make on what I've said that they've experienced like really close friend of mine would never expected this came to me especially to say he's had

very vivid dreams of flying after reading about that part of my book and I know it's it's very gratifying to hear I've also had more basic things of people saying you know why would you join a church with all this that you describe yourself when your book is having all this sex abuse

and this and I and I said well I said I never give up on the church like I have never give up on your faith

but that those kinds of conversations have been the great the great gifts of writing writing the book so while you're at Mount Athos and you're this character odios maximus what do you feel like it so you you feel like it's your mission to get closer to God by sort of detaching yourself from the contemporary world in some ways and so what what are you doing on a day-to-day basis you're you're you're you're fasting and you're you're praying or what's your what's your

what's your day-to-day life like and again this feels as real as right you waking up you know

“and and you know Maryland where you live right yeah well I remember feeling a bit of a”

contradiction of feelings on the one hand being there and doing things like attending to the grapes and cleaning the dishes you know until I become a reckless then it's just trying to survive in the wild and you know that kind of thing doing like continual prayer or that kind of thing but up until that point I'm thinking I mean I'm also miserable I want to go home

so I never lost the feeling I wanted out you feel stuck I felt stuck yeah as I said that a

few times that but I felt very stuck when I was in the reckless phase but I understood without any like there was no messaging or voicing or which I've never heard by the way with mystical experiences any like a audio it's interesting to real audio real talking the words but it was the idea that I needed to do this to go home I needed to go through these different levels of this experience and the dream before I could no one said that but as I knew it I knew that until I

had gone through the different levels of what was expected I couldn't go was almost like it was a spherical training I imagine it was called their spiritual exercises that they go through is this was much more intense in the dream how old were you as Ralph when you went back when you time traveled the Zodiac Maximus how old were you in my real life yeah in your real life so it's 1991 and I'm born in 54 so it's what 37 yeah 37 interesting yeah and see your community your

communing with Gabriel and the other monks as well did you ever tell them hey like no kind of trap here oh yeah no actually exist in the future no it was like a cover I was living my cover until at the very end near the end after you know in one of the times I wore the brown brown swayed shoes and my dream within a dream and then they were suddenly under my hood so they're in the dream now they they had gone from the dream within the dream to somehow peering in my dream

and that was very discombobulating right and and at that point when if Agrius came back on another to check check on me make sure I was and plunged off a cliff or something I told him

“I told him I who I really was and and and I remember the reaction I I had the by the way I never”

knew exactly all some of the things I said but I knew that all of it was consistent so when I

sure with the dialogue as with working memory right so I did I did with my best so I don't want

anybody out there to think I've got this photographic memory or anything but it's very close

“what what did you write the main thing I remember that I based the dialogue I created on”

was to be true to that was the idea that a Vagrius was wise beyond his years he was a young spy little monk wise beyond his years and when I told him the reality I did it because I knew he was wise and I I I needed somebody to tell and it was him he was a someone I could trust and and he reacted in a way that full you know redeemed my idea that this was a good time to

do it by by basically reacting as I would hope which is I hope you get back to your family

and and you know keep brain of God and and God will take care of you in a way that I real I suddenly felt a sense of peace knowing this wasn't going to go without somebody knowing what had happened to me and maybe I will get back because I think this guy wouldn't offer me some wisdom and insight into that and he did. Did he freak out at all and say what you existing the future did you know did you say yeah there's this place it's called America

or the United States and it ends up breaking off from you know England at 1776 did you have

to like go through any of that or he just kind of took it on at some more spiritual dimension or

something and kind of just see there was one there was one thing no I didn't do any of that but

“I made a big slip up early on that I realized and nobody called me on and I think they knew”

there was something really wrong going back to my presentation of my credential so to speak the Gabriel when I said I was already as Maximus and all this stuff not who I was and but I did say something really absurd or I said you know I'm an American mystic because I knew I had to present myself as a mystic because I wouldn't be able to go through any grilling on doctrine or theology or stuff they might expect so I had to play the mystic card and then you maybe don't

or you can grant her I was going to fake it in a way that I knew I couldn't if I had actually explained my knowledge of liturgy or or anything else and they they saw through it and he did but he had pity right that was the earlier description but I said at that time I'm an American mystic thinking I came from this continent called that didn't exist right at least in their minds nobody said anything and so when I presented the story at the end of my real name and future I'm from the future

to this monk he seemed to take it all in stride and it's really interesting because

“if there are people I think who understand the notion of future time travel there's no super”

religion no super spiritual person in the least in the Christianity I think all of them honestly and the monotheistic religions who are able to separate time from discussion in a way where they're comfortable with the idea of past future because for one thing the most credible witnesses to what's going to come and what the past means are the prophets right it's a Zecchio Daniel revelations John it's it's Christ who talked about

the raising of Jerusalem it's the history of the church isn't questioned when people if I've even Christ himself said he can't predict when the future ends or that's up to God so there are limits and I don't look at prophets his susayers in the you know sort of of Shakespeareian tradition of Isom Archer no prophets are those who can see into the future what happens they don't influence it hmm if that makes sense do you think right now as we

speak Ralph is also odious maximists living in 15th century Mount Athos Greece trying to you know commune with God oh wow that's those you know we're getting into fun stuff but but I mean everything I've said is a product of you could speculate you know you're right and I will and I'll just say is a preface that everything I say on this subject is not it is really philosophical science it's it's it's drawn from my greatest love of intellectually in the world which is philosophy

which is what the the the love of wisdom are the love of knowledge and and so in that spirit I think that it's possible and my experience is bear this out for me that the dreams we create

because if I dreamt it and it I created it and it felt real it didn't feel real and I created it now

“the more you get into whether you're taking a trip taking a trip so to speak in reality versus”

like I make this great distinction which I'm not sure is as great a distinction is bright lines as I make it between when I met the Virgin Mary and when I've had interactions just like when you pray to God you you think you're getting responses and telling versus actually like meeting God yeah yeah yeah but let's let's go go a little deeper into this odious maximus example do you think that that is a real historical figure yeah I know yes that's that that was one of the irony so

to my great shock great shock this was like a wonderful shock I went when I went back to some of those in so one of the things Mary said to me at the end of the experience in Paris in 1998 I

neglected the mention at the first iteration she said we will meet again like a reassurance we will

meet again so I so great you know because this is like so this is the highlight of my life kind of thing and part of that would be come back and visit me at Marapos again we're all started

“so it took me a long time between 1998 took me about seven years to go back since it's seven”

years that is interesting and I went back to Marathos and back at the holy mountain only because I felt the Virgin Mary would now be my tour guide so I did something kind of extraordinary I got the Greeks to allow me I knew the I was still like with CIA like a socialists yeah I was at the part of energy at that time by the way head of intelligence there but I still had all my contacts and friends at CIA including the guy who is head of our office in Athens right and I lined it up with

him he's a close friend of mine and he's also interesting enough for religious scholar as CIA officer but he lined me up with a month long visa and that normally someone like me I could only

get three days and I got one and I'd never get another one but he had his contacts and they

he explained my past and they were like oh this good stuff and I got a month so I'm not on the door at curious I feel like I feel a little about like Alice in Wonderland or something and

“in sort of my mentality right I'm going back and just like I'm just gonna soak it all in and”

and I felt guided the whole time and unlike most people I didn't have to register what monastery went to what night so I just go one of the 20 to minus and they have a number of what they call skits skits are like minors they're not considered monasteries are one or two monks there and they're safeguarding a specific tradition or history of monothos so for example it was one and I've wandered in ran in these things it's a huge peninsula if you look on a map

but I was wandering around and running these things like I was being guided and I felt like I was going from place to place showing up on an ounce to spending a night going off into the woods by the way just as a hiker adventure it's like the most one almost wonderful places on the planet so I ended up at St. Anne Skate which is where I'm saying as named an honor of Mary's mother and I didn't even know that historical fact at that time now later I would not have many things

so I got in the biblical archaeology and lived in the Middle East I got into all of this stuff and just as an aside when I didn't I didn't just do biblical archaeology of meaning Christian I did hold testament Judaism Islam all did you try to find certain oh I tried to find I tried to find all kinds of but anyway saying Anne Skate they you know claim to have her bones some of her bones or whatever so I mean I'm kind of fascinating with that stuff too

so I and then the next day I take off from there I said well I've been introduced to Mary's mother that would be something she would want so I take off from there and I go down to coastline I catch a boat go around the corner the the horn of monothos and I end up at this bottom of this pier with a big walk up on the side of a mountain and coincidence right coincidence is this monk walks by with the donkey he was going to go up there little monk and I'm got my big backpack

and so I'm gonna be there a month I got a big backpack one backpack for the month but that's you know I got everything in it and he goes hey why don't you take my donkey to the top of the mountain and send this poor donkey you're sure you want to do it because who he's used to it so the if I just slap someone the rear and off we go and I'm sitting straddling this donkey up this cliff afraid like I wouldn't want to let the monk down as afraid I was going to go off the side

and off the into a cliff and a bus you know does that kind of a thing and then it starts raining and it's getting to the very steady donkey just up the mountain get to the top of the mountain there's nobody there and no pilgrims there's nobody there I walk into the entrance of the ski and this guy comes out greets me young monk probably you know the thirties he's the guy caretaker there and he goes let me tell you a story of this ski is called the ski cuff

little savakia savakia savakia savakia savakia savakia savakia savakia savakia

saints we have here Saint couples with known as Maximus the monk it was not not obvious Maximus and he was known as a flying monk and he burned his huts and he had these miracles and they were sightings of him flying I almost lost I mean I lost not lost it's not the right expression but I was had a like gasping for air just that the thought I hadn't made this up so this had a this had a historical connection and I was there and normally you could go a month at a

month as you never run into this place but here I was standing right at the front door

so to speak well you were you were meant to have that running well I know I'm not doubting things like that you can take by the way and I don't want to people go now think that everything happens them is not by chance and but you also have to be a tune of the possibility things aren't coincidence it's not believing everything is not a coincidence it's getting the

“right being able to make a right judgment of when things aren't just coincidence I think discernment”

is viewing patterns and synchronicities as possibly very meaningful and being a tune to them but not always like not always take them at face value but I mean yeah you could literally right now

Google Maximus Katsakovia and this is this flying monk from Mount Athos and he was known for

burning his huts and so it is fascinating that you went back in time not having and you had nope content and then you you find real historical corroboration for this through happenstance and this is just online like people can search this open sort it's that's pretty remarkable and interesting do you think this was you know people talk about like past life for aggressions do you think this was like a past life for you or well I don't I haven't really thought

of that I don't think of I don't I don't let say I don't believe in reincarnation but nor do I reject rejected I just I mean I don't know I don't have I do I do have a fairly strong discipline in submitting everything we've talked about to a high degree of scrutiny to the point where and we you know I've talked about this we're sometime I'm reticent to say the full to provide the full effect of what I think I've learned or what I experience

because I don't I don't want to the one thing I can't do is misstate any of this because that judgment comes down on me from God yeah and God knows so you go through all this trouble that tell a story about your devotion to God and how you fulfill your destiny as being the fulfilled God's will and do the right thing and do right by people which is what it all boils down to really does I can't miss speak on that I you know so I I'm not gonna inflate or or add to an experience so

the idea like I love exploring with you I'm just being careful for your listeners and others I I we could talk about that over a beer or something I go far away farther I I don't know I I think there's evidence that out there that's like all the things all the phenomena you research just it should all be researched we should be very cherry of drawing conclusions to things that are that we don't have really solid evidence for but nor should we be so so respectful of

“conventional wisdom yeah science that we don't explore and you should also give yourself the”

grace to speculate hey have you know everybody has a game of telephone they're playing in their mind where they don't remember anything accurately that's ever happened to them one to one perfectly but also the ability to speculate which I know you do but I do I do and the thing about these experiences that I've described is that they do form a pattern and the pattern becomes a major part of their authentication you know as as being genuine truth related things not truth seeking

rather than self focused or self-fulfilling I think part of the dreams at monothos that experience was a necessary part of my own faith based development that I would the more you the more you discuss or try to convey a belief in God the more you have to remove yourself as the

object of your intentions this is one of the most important things I can say if you're you know

one of the apostles who followed and I'm not putting myself on any level with the people I'll

“describe you have to be willing to be a martyr to to pull that truth forward and become part of”

human history because God needed Christ needed them to go out as they did all over the world

lay down their own lives for for the truth and it's easy to say lay down your life for the truth but

“you know it's a harder thing to do it and the other thing is to not do it for their own benefit”

because you can even lay your life down for the truth because you think it's to your benefit but does not even your goal at some point you try to eliminate your subject the the paragraphs I wrote of my time at monothos in my dream I tried to be very very careful to describe the essence of what I was experiencing in the dream which was this process of shedding myself it's the reason when I read my star Eck Carter somebody like that he talks about looking down at God not up

it's a psychological thing you know ashes the ashes dust the dust the more you can remove yourself from any honor glory in faith the closer the more responsibility God will give you if that makes sense to promote the faith because it can't be about you and there's a well said there's a Yale professor it's very well respected religious studies professor named Carlos Iier he wrote a book called they flew and it's all about flying saints and monks and Saint Joseph the the the divine

“Saint Joseph of Cupertino is probably the most famous example I think you 16th century you have”

Teresa Vila who also seemed to experience you know by location and all these sort of other paranormal things even Saint Francis at the C.C. by some accounts might have levitated and so this is actually in this guy came one into this research thinking oh you know this must have been written about sort of historically in this sort of metaphorical way and he came out of it being like no there there are enough there's enough eyewitness testimony around these flying saints

to to call it history and it's well beyond the threshold of evidence we'd need to say that like the war of 1812 was fought or whatever and and he I think he truly believes that and you know I have a friend named Diana Pesolko is a religious studies professor at UNC Wilmington she's gone very deep on Saint Joseph of Cupertino and she has gone through a lot of his files

“and she agrees with that so and it's it's across like you said to cross different religions”

so maybe this is a real phenomena where you do shed the baggage of individual ego and you you become one with God and you and you fly there's even in fact Jeffrey Creipel who's a religious studies professor at Rice University in Houston he was giving a lecture on flying

saints at MIT oh wow and a guy who I've met actually who runs revolutionary technologies at

skunkworks so they're most advanced R&D division obviously of Lockheed Martin and he's running their most advanced R&D division of skunkworks he attended the lecture and was very interested in flying saints that's so great it's interesting yeah why I don't think there's any question that once you start believing in certain mystical experiences either because you've experienced them their cells or you've heard such compelling tales like I read Virgin Mary which I didn't know

as I stress a lot really the history of those appearances and to now of course I sort of study them to look at the similarities to hear the different descriptions see how close they were to mind and then it was very reassuring as I see it sort of so many similarities and commonalities but the point is to your explain yeah you gotta be willing to believe all kinds of manifestations what I would call the holy meaning things that are not a human

construction are in our in our in our whether it's our minds or even the what we call the laws of physics they come from something else what's the physics of that where is that the where might even be you know not not not not a real question because it may not be anywhere in that sense we understand location right because it's what's location outside of distance and move motion and it's really nothing right so it's at over under a side I'm I'm sure it's relevant but then

you're getting closer to all the mystics because when they get together I've read you know some of some really cool stuff and I'd love to be one of those gatherings when Martin used to have an Asian you had Buddhist mystics and you had Islamic myst myst mystics and poets a feast for example one of my favorite talking about his love of God and the heretics who were burned and things for for going too far with things that were mystical they couldn't help themselves because

they were just devoted to the truth their crime as always was why Elijah was sought in half

for this is is speaking truth to people don't want to hear it or sounding an automatic because

wisdom of the day hmm that's usually the problem so there's some version of that you think you

have some truth that from all these mystical experiences you've come back with that the average person might have kind of an allergic reaction too or might not want to hear might be an uncomfortable

“truth well I think I think frankly average person probably uncomfortable all of this yeah”

right I mean let's be honest right and and the see idea well who do you think you are it starts with things like that it's and it's it's the mistake of course is over over interpretation or look because I've realized also this is just something I've learned because I continue to occasionally have enigmatic dreams I don't have anything as vivid as in the past with age it's less a few

or fewer which I when I was living in the middle east I once went to my Jesuit priest friend

friend more than anything more than a spiritual advisor and said yeah I just don't know what my purpose is anymore now I'm not beating the meat virgin Mary I said I want to sound you know like I should be meeting virgin Mary but I sure miss it and he goes well I've tried praying to her I said well

“I don't really pray to the virgin Mary I feel her presence but I pray to God I pray to you know”

gee Christ that's it I don't pray to other people or the things but as well you can pray but let's don't get hung up on the word you can interact you can talk and so I asked I said well you know Mary what what's my why am I here like why I'm in the middle east I had the sense I was praying

or thinking that there's a reason I'm here and then you brought me here because I will be here

and I was spending all my time in one five years in the middle east left 2011 to 16 spending all my time on the road going I did biblical archaeology I did you know what went on to I went all over everywhere many times over then later on you know and Saudi Arabia etc and I said there's got to be a reason for this so I just say just just tell me so I know what I should expect kind of thing and got back kind of a again nothing verbal or just a an answer which was

you're here to be here and put me at ease it was the idea okay this is almost like I don't need to

“overthink this I think another message is she says don't to you don't strive don't try don't reach”

this was in well 1998 was when I seven years after I met her at Monathos I met her in Paris met the Virgin Mary so that none of this discussion would be occurring if I hadn't actually met the Virgin Mary not and we call the apparition and I mean the Virgin Mary so I had a was in Paris on a work trip for CIA I was doing actually Russian things I was heading up a lot of our Russian CIA's Russian activity at the time 1998 and so I'm in Paris for those

discussions with one other colleague and he we both went you know we we we we signed up at a big botic hotel five minute walk from architecture on kind of you know places well I'll have from architecture on from from the American embassy down the southern part of the that lane heartree off down there hotel crayon area and we're in the book I'm in the hotel it's a nice little room and had a bed with a old fashioned hotel really old and had a table in front of me

and had a light switch on the wall but small room typical French style and what and as I went to bed thinking nothing a particular except maybe my last thoughts before going to sleep was going through my notes in my mind and what we were going to raise the next day and as I like to joke I didn't have any weird food or anything else and went to sleep and immediately was there like in one of those dreams again and I knew it right away but it was a dream I knew I was dreaming so I'm by a

riverbank so I'm thinking of the river dream from way back which was a more raging river this is a nice gentle almost stream type river and I'm sitting at a riverbank of grass lush grass it's beautiful day again ball me nice weather I'm sitting on the top of the little little mound that goes into goes down into the stream and there's nobody around and just thinking just relaxing and then all woman comes it would progress in a brown cloke with a hood up and sits almost within touching

distance but just outside my reach and sits there and stairs looks ahead too and I didn't want to disturb her so I didn't like introduce myself or say anything I just thought maybe wait for her to say hi or something I won't do it and so we're just sitting there and then it starts sprinkling and it was a sunset stayed up the sun didn't go away so I thought it was just a little sprinkle

like oozing brown dirt and I thought this is really kind of strange and then I looked at

see what reaction the woman was having to this strange strange and at that time she went turned towards me and I felt this kind of ease I felt really at ease and I felt kind of backwards like almost like whoa into her arms and then I realized it was a virgin Mary and I thought at the

“moment I thought okay it's a dream and I think this rain is like I don't purify me or something”

I just had that weird thought so then I wake up so I wake up in my room and I get up to turn on the light because I need to clear my head you know it's very jarring it was very jarring

in a nice way but very jarring how do you know is the virgin Mary in the dream I just knew it

that you just knew that was a virgin yeah unlike the other things I wanted sure where it wasn't as sure this I knew right away this was a virgin Mary because I had had the one experience to in Portugal where I met the virgin Mary but not in the flesh in the mind kind of thing so this was like completely normal to me now the dream that I would have a dream like this it was not no longer something maybe what all this was was preparation right because all along the way I was getting

more and more used to the idea this wasn't strange not of this was strange this is all part of the sort of a process anyway so I get up and from the chair I hit my shin I forget I hurt

“my shin bone as I got up and that's how I kind of knew I was awake and then I saw this like”

like we're sitting in a room here it was in that corner coming from the top of the corner a light coming down like this radio light and Thomas Martin described the light better than I could when I read it in one of his books because he had some of these experience it was a light so bright that it bore no resemblance to visible light if that makes sense so it didn't shy you'd have to look away from it was very bright and it came and sat straight in front of me when I was standing up I was

still standing up where the curtains are like right across for me when I'm standing there and off the ground was the full image of the Virgin Mary and your RAM in my room so she was in the dream and then she comes in your room and I knew as I was standing there I specifically had the realization clear absolutely this is not a dream in fact I kind of pinch my this is reality as opposed to the and the dream must be preparation what happens next so she's in your room she's

in my room and then I don't have any conversations but I can read her mind or she can read my mind or vice versa there's an exchange there's communication going on at a non verbal level and it's very intense I'm feeling combination you know at the one time a rushing sense of grief that she's feeling at the same time the hope of the message she's conveying that in the end it will all come out fine but there's this tremendous pain and suffering she's

and she she said at one like said I knew the message clearly got the message right a letter to the pope no instructions what the right or what you're seeing what seeing me but no other specific instructions what to say or why no explanation but it's right a letter to the pope then I was looking for some form of greater understanding I'd say and she sensed that and I think she sensed I was like still shocked and shocked right but I went into a

estate of ecstasy so I've never had that only time on my life

71 years old that I was in a state of ecstasy I could I remember my teeth

“chattering I remember that I remember the sound of them look and my head going back like it was like”

and it was incredible it was like going to come in I had incredible orgasm of like beyond that without a real orgasm obviously but it was like more than it was it was just an incredible feeling the bona fides of the moment sort of speaker right there I mean so no this is absolutely what it was and then I saw it like more of a if I'm so grace to be here in your presence you know I've sent you then there must be some things specific you you want me to to do other than

sense of tying together I was there was no numbers or but I sense that it was all related I just

sensed that it was all related this plus my encounter I'd had whether in Portugal or hadn't met her but I felt her mind and thoughts she was explaining when she told me there deliver the message right what you see whatever you do you do in sin that was specific I wrote that down after Portugal which was a few few years earlier said keep all that in mind as you go forth on this mission or you go forth to fulfill God's will and she made it clear everything is God's will not

her will there was a major distinction this was I'm doing anything for her this is all in accordance with her serving God the same way she was asking me to or anybody else now you asked earlier

I at this moment this point I had never read anything about her you know counters really

very very bad became of course a hobby I'm a student of that as well great detail but the thing

“as you mentioned earlier I I think she sensed that I was not losing it but like needed further”

reassurance in some way that I could do this because the first thing anybody has is an expectation of getting any mystical experience that's genuine is well why me there's no reason that the answer to that is there is no reason it's a few I wasn't being single because I was noble or were the year no no no such reason when when Paul was on the road to Damascus and he was struck down by the light of Jesus standing over him the light the divine light of Jesus saying Paul why

you persecuting me he turns from the person going to kill members of this Jewish sect to the leader of that sect because of the mystical experience with Christ without that none of that would have happened so yeah I'm very well aware of the that these are only real but they're

“incredible important moments in human history every time they happen to anybody to continue to”

gather them up and as you're saying tell a relate to story so at the very end of the encounter was and you know it's funny time kind of like I got lost in time I don't remember it was just minutes the whole thing I know that where she said like encouragement again this was the important part don't reach God lies within you don't want you have no needs don't strive there is no purpose and it was incredibly important

guidance because it reminded me of things I thought I knew but then I got to get lost right particularly the one of the reach don't go out and try you know it's all there it's all inside you in the end and even the experiences going on the mountain with the monks and going back in time all that was a way of intensifying that it's here and being confident in that did your life change after that did that fundamentally it was the it was a culminating moment it was a culmination

of all the dreams in a way because in her the images I I associated with her presence in the room there was the idea of war and conflict and apocalyptic things I could sense the wars and things of previous dreams all being present with her as well so it was her great suffering you know particularly of women and children and war and conflict lies being lost that kind of level of concern and hope and need to get people do things to minimize it or to end it or to be part of

God's will and and writing the course of human history she visited you every seven years three times is that right so 1998 and then 2005 well then the she didn't visit me in 2005 but it's one of the coincidence that ties the connections together in 2005 I didn't have an experience with a Virginia Mary but I found myself through the chief of Europe at CIA I was back in Paris probably

old first time since seven years maybe I don't know I didn't go there that often but I I'm back

“in the same hotel pre-on which is two blocks from the one I was in I remember thinking this is”

autumn so close to where all this happened because I'd by now intensely aware and thinking and looking into what all that was meant for me and what should I do more from a practical I didn't need evidence I just needed to know practically what to do now that I had had these experiences

and it was the idea that this is related to that her the explicit idea of course I had the right

“to let it to the pope and I sent that letter to the Vatican and you know I got a response from”

the Vatican actually on what was the response well I said his holiness had you know appreciated the gift and I suppose I send some of these and that but it seemed like it seemed like it had a personal touch to it what would you say to the pope well it's I put the letter in the book so the letter I sent to the pope I put in the book and I want it I want everybody to re what I said because go check it out did you did you say just high level did you say the Virgin Mary told

me to write to you yeah wow yeah and I put the experience I put all the numbers in it I mean all the numbers are in the book because again the idea is the numbers from the original down let's get us seven four seven and all the numbers I've seen the numbers yeah so if you read the letter in two pages to an pages it's a whole story in a way I met her in Portugal I met her

“and went out those and it's the same letter I shared with the Orthodox Church I because it's”

it's not about me yeah I mean it is my story but to to to extend the story serves a purpose or irrelevant so you were just relying your experience mostly to the Vatican so it's 2005

Pope John Paul the second dies you're in Paris that night ironically at the same spot that

Thomas this like Nechain eternal recurrence or something well that satisfies your sevens you know we have three sevens here three sevens exactly so that seems significant maybe for the numerology aspect but so you're there you're in Paris and then what happens as far as you're just your third experience with the Virgin Mary well the third experience preceded the first Paris it was the one in Portugal okay in no way to minute no gosh I'm losing the date on that but it yeah it was

before the Virgin Mary appearance because it was in Portugal where I was an encounter in I already told you what that conversation was all about and what she relayed more guidance at that meeting so

there again it was idea of a presence not seeing anything but I realized this presence is continuing

and it's I'm getting more and if you will aware of what I should and shouldn't be doing related to to all this and in between all this you know there's but in Paris you see her again yeah and what's what's that experience like well there's only the only one time I've seen the Virgin Mary was in 1998 Paris yeah but in 2005 you see her again no oh you don't see her again okay got it got no as I've got down there there were there were only one only one it's that they

tied everything up where she appeared in a way that you know you examine phenomena right and I like to present this in various ways one is as phenomena I have to know for my own satisfaction I want to know I should say I'm supposed to want but I do want to know the explanation of the you know physiology or the the the the the the reality aspect of what was she where did she come from she there's a there has to be somewhere she came and

went when she retreated back into the because she at the end she went back into the top corner the wall and and she was gone so that's that's that's an event that's a real thing so I have talked to be talked to some about it just because you do a lot of inquire and research into to these subjects there's there's an explanation for it in fit based in physics just like there has to be an explanation of what heaven and hell are in physics do you have a best

explanation in physics for kind of metaphysical or spiritual experience well I have one that I have one that I favor and I I'm a I'm hesitant to share it but I want to give it direct answer to direct question because I don't know I mean I don't know but but to me the the most sensible explanation is that things we describe is divine or part of a permanent things that aren't prone to being affected by time anymore meaning they're not in the physical universe in motion because time is a

function of of a motion and a matter right mass and motion so without those things if you had a universe it rest then what we call heaven and hell God presides over everything including our universe including where angels might come to give us messages or how profits get their insights because it doesn't come from our universe it doesn't come from the big bang universe I can't come

“the idea I think if the great thinkers like Thomas Aquinas and you pick your favorite pondering”

the theological basis of God even someone like the lightness of mathematicians said God has to

but that's because God isn't in our world God to be perfect to be great to be everything we

“have described including indivisible so massive we can't even contemplate it it can't be rooted in the”

big bang universe emotion is everything in our universe is relative so it's like there's an alternative universe that's at rest that's more or a universe that I don't know I use a word alternative well that perfectly valid I'd say a universe that lies beyond or above or in which our universe is just a small part and you're saying the big bang universe because that is the proverbial

kind of you know first prime mover event that scientists now hear old as you know definitely true

that then kind of deterministically kind of you know you get this entropy from there and then you end up with this you know what a lot of scientists would now say this happy accident of you know our earth and the world and the universe as it is and you're saying that there is something next to that or outside of that well the explanation I can come up with which is you know I'm embarrassed almost to say these profound things when there are so many scientists and physicists of philosophy

but I mean the simplest way I think of it it came to me kind of as an insight as a possibility was sitting in my porch with screens all around my porch and picturing the big bang for the

first time in my life I'm God I'm sitting in my chair and picturing the big bang is being a ripple

in that space time in that room in the corner of the room just a little ripple there's a starts with a little tear in the corner and just who spans out and you're God you're looking over that but it's just you it's just a ripple everything we take is the ultimate reality in the the accumulation of all things is just possibly a very small side show occurring in a big room as the implication of the title of your book a state of mind that your mind can get to this

universe at rest this timeless universe it's so that the clues because it's not completely

“just a stab in the dark of the big room it as much as to say you have to have an explanation”

of how people can reliably this doesn't just happen to few people this has happened throughout

this human history being able to see into the future and and and sometimes claimed to go into the past so there must be a way of if you will overcoming time which means time can't be an absolute in our equation you have people like Einstein saying time is but an illusion which Harry Hiller said to me in my book when I've been with the monothos and sure enough he proved it was an illusion because I kept going back in time so in a way the dream was a

manifestation of a very basic potential truth which is time is just an aspect of space time that we create in the big bank as we're all in motion there's nothing not in motion but who is to say that there's not a universe it rest because I don't know how you can have something called everlasting life if Christ went somewhere he didn't go somewhere in a big bang after crucifixion resurrection he didn't stay in our earthly realm even if we spend

standing that meaning to the whole universe as we understand the universe you know it stands to reason then that every species intelligence species in the universe would be beholden to this rule not just humans yeah you know question a lot of people who are more fundamentalists than their beliefs on these things like of crisis you know immortal like where is he now like he should be on earth and they often talk about like an ascension body you know that there they

exist and maybe the ascension body is where this other sort of universe lies or something I

“don't know I'm speculating I mean I think you got another clue that's really fascinating one”

I don't want to overstate any of these but they're just things that come to mind the transfiguration of Christ which for many people they don't know what that is it was a period after crucifixion where he appeared to the disciples in a form where he wasn't yet in heaven or wasn't at earth and that's where he had the famous doubting Thomas putting Jesus saying if you doubt that it's me because you're you're not supposed to be here put your finger in my wounds

and it is and he's called doubting Thomas but if you look at that beyond as a religious kind of story you know it has to be true again if they witnessed Christ in some form then what is that how would you explain that in physics I think you can I think it's a deliberate staging of before reaching the next period I absolutely believe as a result of my religious experiences and growth and that we don't die when we die we just go past it's better where

would be a passage there's a passage from this state I think if you believe truly believe in Christ

and how much you donate to this or that what matters is do you really believe the heart and soul

“of what the faith is about which is there's life after death so once you posit there is life after death”

you're not really trying to determine like what is that like Dante's stages of hell which is kind of like fun to think about because people deserve the different levels of hell that kind of explains why your little center you go here your big center you go down here but it's all silly right it's silly the idea of hell is a place of silly hmm now the idea of hell is being the absence of God

from God being separated from God ah never getting somewhere because God doesn't exist in

the big bang world not it's just beyond it so the closer you get beyond the big bang world to world not in motion so maybe when we die we we pass to a world that rest we we pass to a world where time no longer exists hmm which then creates consequences of what you've done in your life because you're suddenly aware of them you know we can't even accurately go back and recreate any moment of

“our time much less replicated again because it happens we have memories of it and all our memories are”

fading all of them but there is a place where all the memories are the events themselves if that makes sense all the events are curing always as they occurred in what we would describe as this year this place this time because in that world none of the time exists that's all it's a very simple concept and all that presupposes is that physicists have told me where we've taught this discuss this and I've learned a lot from good physicists especially young ones I find they're

really into this subject like you are they're really interested in in constructing ways of thinking of metaphysics in ways that aren't traditional physics or if you can't prove it experimentially forget it yeah no of course not yeah that's that can't be true like if something is phenomenal logically real or experientially real it's not fake because you can't experimentally reproduce it

“in a lab right absolutely ridiculous thing to say that is the epitome of the kind of the”

hubris of enlightenment but time and physics is also extremely weird you know general relativity is a theory of gravity but even in general relativity you have time dilation you know you have you know time moves based on you know the speed of the observer which is really weird gravity you know

itself is really weird you know on a macroscopic scale you know you basically are justifying

the weakness of gravity with with dark matter which seems like this undetectable mathematical placeholder and time and gravity are kind of super length you know the more you get closer to it kind of a dense gravitational source like a black hole time seems to slow and so you know if gravity is is kind of weird you know and then gravity is obviously weird on you know it's your reconcilable with the other forces on a quantum level and then time is also on a quantum level

it's taken as this sort of classical axium and something like true under the equation so it's just time seems like this not super well understood thing like at most maybe you can think of it vis-a-vis the movement of bodies on a macroscopic scale and on a microscopic scale maybe the oscillations of an electromagnetic wave or something but it's it's you know it's the most commonly

used noun in the English language but it always has to be defined with respect to other things

and so it seems a little bit like the eye seeing the eye or like that David Foster Wallace you know Kenyan commencement speech where he's you know this is water and it's like if you're fish talking to another fish in your in water we're all in Zeno's arrow of time you can't really get out of that sort of epistemological framework but simultaneous to that you have all these interesting thinkers in physics like you cure air enough or cramer where there's like the the

present is a handshake between the future and the the past which is this legitimate interpretation of kind of quantum mechanics and you know you have ideas of retro causality and the future sort of causing the past or the the the present being constricted and the they're being probable futures and probable fast short short probable past Schrodinger talked about you know if you measure a particle and it's present you might affect its past you know they're all it's it's is it's way

prettier than sort of meets the eye I even think you know even position momentum super positionality spooky action at a distance which Einstein grappled with till the end of his life you have spooky action over time as well where you know looks if double slit experiment is performed in the future it looks like the measurement of that double slit experiment is affecting something one that's done

you know people say it implies you know there there's an issue with position and momentum measurements

“that's highs and breaks uncertainty principle but there's also level of energy and time quantum”

mid-determination as well and what if the Schrodinger's equation which is more position and momentum based what if time super positionality is causing the position and momentum super positionality and just like you know you can place Newton within Einstein but Einstein better describes Newton than Newton what if you could place Schrodinger within some time agnostic modality equation that describes Schrodinger better than Schrodinger you know we don't know the answer to these

questions no and and the hardest part of exploring them is separating the influence of scale

from from the actual reality so because we are at the scale we are everything we measure is measured

proportional to our scale so and that's not we can obviously go beyond visual and we have lots of ways to measure things other than our senses but we we can't avoid is our scale so if you go up in scale the cosmic level or down the subatomic levels you you've got the same problem your ability to measure anything gets less and less and then the worst your worst ability to measure anything is when time changes on you you get into black hole physics or whatever

suddenly realize mass you know go it goes infinite and time stops but that's a clue it's another clue the idea again of time being variable that we take is in a way an absolute reality even though it changes but the existence of time I'm talking about isn't necessarily real it's real for us in the big bang world but if you if you stop everything which we don't contemplate because we can't we can't at least in science contemplate a world arrest so why don't we we'll kind of you know

take a page from the book so to speak and can we even and out of some of these more mystical experiences and your more prosake life what were some of your early missions so I would say in the early years there was no mission there other than basic conclusions I drew it like okay I'm drawn to Russia because it's it's the action it's there's no better place to be in the CIA than the belly of the beast so I had those kinds of connotations early on but nothing nothing explicitly

you know linked to religion or or faith or apocalypse or nuclear weapons or any of that it was very just a kind of basic career until the things I described that happened later yeah and so and you taught you have a lot of story I mean you were almost overrun right in the yelton coup so there's this attempted coup against Boris Yelton 1993 correct 1993 and you're back and you're the Moscow station chief of the CIA and it seems like you're kind of you know in this very dire situation

they end up having they end up helping you right is that is that right you know that's correct I mean it's one of those things where the idea of a liaison relay we call liaison relationship when we cooperate with other countries intelligence on the face of it there was nothing really to cooperate between the CIA and the KGB we read all the story they're all true as we say there's a lot of blood in the water we kill you know not kill but their agents are agents

end up dead killed executed sometimes imprisoned so it's a very ugly history and we weren't

going to be friends but the idea was when I laid out the first CIA directors that ever went

to Moscow for to visit the well even visit Moscow much less deal with the Russians as partners

“it was Bob Gates was the first when he was CIA director and I'll never forget that trip in 1992”

he came there and laid the groundwork by given a great toast hmm we had dinner and Russians love toast they love dinners and you got to win you got to you got to be good at the whole part of toasting and so I learned a lot about that but his essentially was around the theme of when I hear because we're ever going to love each other and be real partners we're here because our country's demand that we put aside some of our differences in cooperating meaningful ways

for the security of our countries hmm that was when yelts and um I just emerged there was the hope then right but it was a realism attack he attached to it that was very important needed to make it real because if otherwise you would have you know been pretending and playing games

“which there's no point to play games if you're arch enemies you just do what you need to do”

so year later it all culminated in this um cool in Moscow when hardliners tried to overthrow yelts and

because we had a common interest to keep yelts and empower um Russian intelligence decided they weren't ready to overthrow yelts and through force and violence they ended up doing that this is 93 a it was eight years later of course when climate Putin came to power legally

“the right way if you want to call it that and the Russians don't like coos and violence anymore”

than we would like in our own country hmm so we worked together and it was astonishing I didn't

know when I first called Russian intelligence chief and said hey we need help we need you to protect

us that looks like we're going to be taken hostage when I was leading a detachment of people outside the embassy and coming under fire from coup-plotters um snipers and things I called them for help and I didn't expect any help in fact it was the ambassador at the time ambassador at Tom Pickering he's the one who's called him a desperation say there's no way you can help us is it because of the embassy all everybody in the embassy was underground in the

embassy compound except for us we're out doing reporting and things like that to tell Washington what was going on otherwise they wouldn't have known anything going on at the time all the news networks it shut down and you end up like hold up and then abandoned building well we we hold up everything was abandoned but we were in the ambassador's residence okay which we opened up and use just as a command post was I think that started as five of us I think we ended up

a seven or eight long I put the hold like all the details and in that I was a little surprised that again it was nice to see they they had no problem with telling that story because I think it's important the purpose of the story and the purpose of me describing it is that you know intelligence

is almost always unexpected and it's it's greatest value is proven in the most difficult times

“pro and con and and you you can't fear or avoid the difficult circumstances you have to kind of”

run into them and embrace the the the difficulty so they ended up sending a team to protect us from being taken hostage and the only rules we had I never forget the phone call from the director he said okay we're all there's a very extraordinary circumstances we're going to send you a team again heavily armed guys to try to keep you from getting captured but here's the deal one is do not co-mingle our guys and your guys are separate we'll do our work outside your perimeter or whatever

so don't mix it goes if you are stormed or they take get in a firefight or whatever happens dying your separate foxholes and he didn't have to explain why because however that day turned out in Russian history didn't want to leave any evidence of who would work with whom along the way

“because it was in doubt the one thing I learned personally in a way that helped me even with the”

spiritual stuff later missus mystical experiences is history is not inevitable history isn't history comes together because of the decisions people make and when you're experiencing it life like in a war or in a coup or in a change of government you realize it could go that way if these things were done and goes that way if another thing has done you've been in the room with Vladimir Putin what's your impression of him well it wasn't as extensive as so many of the

people you know obviously in the US government who have had a lot of interaction with them so I don't want to put it on so I just happened to have a fairly unique one-time thing where we met in his first foreign trip I was in Norway I'm Norwegian America as I said so is a great honor for me to go back the Norway and I happened to be there again one of these things I thank God a little bit for the privilege of to be there during the last meeting of what was

called the Oslo peace accord process was started in Oslo Norway and now was culminating so this was in the November 1993 no no 1998 the last meeting oh okay and the last meeting was one amazing no I had no role of any appreciable nothing I was there as literally a appreciation gift some I knew the prime minister and other people in Norwegian government they said might be in my wife to the dinner but at the dinner was President Clinton came of course Vladimir Putin's first foreign trip

is Prime Minister and then of course the main ones yes are our fat and a whoed Barak who was the Prime Minister of

of Israel at the time now I had never met our fat a whoed Barak I had that Clinton just you know

kind of like formalistically but and Putin and and I got to see them all in this kind of as an observer

important than me literally everybody at the at the dinner but that was great there's no pressure

I could literally just observe Putin and others and it was just an amazing I was there was a moment

when after dinner when everybody got up and mingled went to the king's library to visit the castle and his library to have cognac and chocolates and everybody's walking there and I'm going to catch everything on the way and I see Clinton literally grab Barak fat in middle of the room and Clinton was whatever one thinks of him politically I said what I'm talking about here he had a presence right oh I will everybody says that everybody says the most charismatic yeah you just have a natural

“charisma you have to do anything just dancer right so he grabs Arif and also in his weird way”

had a charisma too a presence right because he iconic head wrap and et cetera and he says to Arif at take the deal yes or take the deal it's your last best chance for peace and I remember listening to that thing wow so like important but I just heard I thought it's very important yeah and I just felt so depressed so I knew it was nope no no you know foreshadowing or future I just like instinctively my gut was all this is not going to turn out well yeah yeah and of course it's turned out terribly

well it's turned out terribly I mean partially yes or if that would speak out of both sides of his mouth and he would speak to his own population say certain things and then speak to the West and say other things but also you talk for being also you know taking out by his own you know people in a ferrady you know Jews who are just really extremists and wanted you know to see nothing at all

“costs and you know I think in in many ways that whole the Middle East you know a conundrum”

a quagmire has been has been so stuck for so long and maybe we you know maybe we've made a little bit of progress in the last year but it's been so so stuck because of kind of extremists on on both sides and because in many ways the incentives of the leaders are to like actually maintain the conflict yeah so unfortunate it is it is it's a factory of yeah well my my my then watching Putin just to point of your your question was I already had the impression

that he would be more consequential than I thought he might at the time by any standard of reasoning or what I knew about him I but I just had he had the presence too he was boring the gray man in the corner but that in itself impressed me because he wasn't trying to fit in he wasn't trying to like speak allowed leads to be heard he was way too self assured you know for for that kind of reaction to the situation and I respected that I thought okay this guy could end up being way more

of his own man than we we think he might be going into that time period one last thing on the because it's ties the Russian Middle East again five years earlier 1993 again after the coup and all that I was meeting with the Russians you're getting prima call his name he was the head of Russian intelligence I got to know him very well he was we'd meet almost every week and had all kinds of discussions about everything we talked almost like we are Jesse about all kinds of big

subjects and he was a guy felt very comfortable I thought he was a brilliant brilliant man actually and he probably would have been a prime minister before instead of Putin in the mid 90s after Yeltson left had he not passed away from health problems and old age etc but at the time he was

always musing with me but what can we do to be serious people there's a Russian expression

“so those need to live back some most important thing to Russian it can love you or hate you but”

you gotta be a serious need to live a serious person serious professionals serious by what you do don't give me bullshit and he says you know we got to something but I can think of one thing that would be unbelievable if we could find a way to do it I said what's that he said well you have your means meaning CIA we have our means meaning the SVR which is the foreign intelligence component of Russian intelligence and we have them in the Middle East so let's apply all our efforts in the Middle

East where we really need something happen to break this longstanding stalemate problem our goal will be to keep our afat alive your goal will be to keep Rabin alive and I thought it was genius

of course I sent it in every thought I was insane and I never got a good explanation is the

why it really wasn't even considered maybe you just offered it yeah yeah yeah it's tough I mean I mean we've talked about this you know two in our last interview you know where you know people always talked about a deep state and you know it's I think clearly there is no sort of

there are all sorts of misaligned incentives when it comes to big bureaucracies and that's any institution and so yeah now just going back to like you know why would somebody sincerely say no to a thing like that or you know I'm sympathetic to a lot of the John Mears Schimer arguments as

well that like you know we've totally reneged on Putin a million different times and you know we've

we've encroached a lot on you know their territory and you know not to at all you know a apologize for a lot of his wrongdoings which are very real but yeah there's the incentives are often wrong and these organizations yeah well when you talk about people like Mears Schimer or others who try to express a different way of thinking of our policies and their impact I mean there's there's a utility and those points of use I don't agree with him a lot of things but

“I think he should be saying some of the things he's saying and it's helpful the biggest thing we”

habitually do wrong in terms of follow through on policy some of our policy ideas aren't so bad but it's usually the huge flaws in the implementation usually and and it's not so much the underlying motives that line up with as much as people think they do with sort of deep state of genders it's just either a mixture of incompetence or I'd say more the idea that we we mirror image too much so our biggest problem in understanding for example the Russians now what I'm saying is not acceptable is it's

not accepted thinking but it's widely accepted but some people understand it is our biggest mistake is not seeing things through their eyes and it doesn't justify what they're doing or thinking but it's understanding it and if you want to know why we are where we are with the Russians you have to understand see the world through their eyes it doesn't mean you accept that view or more importantly what they do is a consequence of what they feel but at least understand why you're there and don't

be surprised about it in there it can in quote about understanding the Russians or something it's like once you ascend to the top of the mountain you know you end up equally confused just to the Russian motivation or something I'm totally paraphrasing and botching this but there's something like

“remember that but I suspect that it's like they're always mystical confusing there's no way to”

ultimately understand what they're up to or something which feels somewhat right you like you know the idea of a poll at burrow is like this you know concealed sealed off dramatically you know

enclosed sort of organization that you know you can never fully sort of understand and

Putin's always keeping the people around him on his on their toes and so it's this really hard kind of hermeneutic game of reading the tea leaves at all times with you know I think you read tea leaves and see everything is being unscruitable when you don't have any real depth in either living in the country or having enough experience with the people of the country where you can understand where they're coming from one of the biggest mistake we make with Russia or Xi Jinping and China or anybody

for that matter all the leaders even some of our friendly countries is is not understanding that the country's not the leader so the thing I'll never do is think of Russia as Vladimir Putin I've read too much in history philosophy gotten into Russia I've known too many Russians I lived in Russia for enough years where I think of Russia first is the people right and then you can assess what

“Putin's doing and the most important way you need to assess is not what impact it has on the US”

but what impact is what he's doing having on the Russian people now I would make an argument that what's happening now is very damaging to the future interests of ordinary Russians the same way I might assess what different presidents impact has on America I don't I don't care so much about how the president's policies affect the stock market as I do how the president's policies affect ordinary Americans so I think we have to look at foreign countries the same way

if you look at China's meteoric rise in the 20th century you're not compelled to think of China as an enemy or deeply rival and everything that's progress in China is being antithetical to our interests look what they've done for the Chinese people over in a remarkable period of time that's not all good obviously but start from a more solid basis to understand why the leaders do what they do in their own history traditions culture environments and religion if you look at the

reason I've always said now a lot of Russia experts disagree with me on this

I've always said Russia can't embrace cannot be a democracy like the United States

there was never an opportunity for Russia to go west even when famously you know Peter the

great talked about western orientation had nothing to do in the context we would like to ascribe it to like he wanted to be more connected culturally et cetera with the US Russia is what Russia is which is a deeply orthodox homogenous country with a very rich history very rich they're very smart people they're very educated people and they want what they want they don't

“want what we want yeah and I think that's a big mistake of what we try to impose not so much”

are our anyway of controlling countries but our idea of imposing our culture for sure well they had you know under Gorbachev you know last leader of the USSR that disbanded it you had glass nost in you had parastroca put parastroca and you had you know open minds make open markets or whatever and or open markets make open minds right and I think what a lot of neoliberal sort of like miscalculated is that you inevitably you get this like opening up of markets and then you know

you end up with all of the amazing things about liberal democracy in the west you know in both

China and Russia and that's just not happened at all and like it took us a long time to think update on that you know you're right this neo-conservative sort of hubris of like you know this would just happen on its own and that's just not and you also have things like you know

“with Putin I think there's this guy Vladislav Circov which is this advisor who wrote this book”

almost zero and it's like all about like performance art and how that has to play into like your you know how you do politics and so it's I has find it so fascinating you know that whole that whole world it's just so different or even like I think this is to a trip you know Alexander Dugin who I don't think he's I don't think he's that close with Putin actually like I think people think he is but I mean the it's Putin is I mean that whole world is definitely

trippier than we you know like some of these guys are like they're more esoteric than you know we might realize and so it's like how do you really understand how they make decisions at all right yeah no it's it's it's I think it's a little like our previous discussions on faith and mysticism and analyzing other countries and understanding what more importantly than analyzing it is understanding what's happening yeah what what track are they on what road are they on especially

in the world where are notions of individual identity or changing through of course social media and the internet our ideas of technology or you know it's blowing up around us in ways we don't really understand now that's affecting all of us the culture reaction to it is different everywhere the thing it's testing most yeah in my view is the idea of individuality and identity so in a country like ours which started at that the point of our creation is the nation

the idea of very unique historically unique completely unique ideas of individual freedom and the role of individual liberty identity in a collective society where the collective part was put way down I mean the idea of right and intrinsic right to life liberty and not property like John wrote lock wrote in his second treat as a government but or suit of happiness yeah what a weird idea Franklin came up with that I understand when when they were drafting the

declaration of independence it was a change made edit to Jefferson's original that's only something Americans can come up with it's a very western concept it's not even European western so when we're decrying and criticizing all Europeans for being socialist my I would make can we have no idea we're talking I've lived in most of those countries whatever they you I call that socialism I want those pensions we make fun of the French because I got a four-day

workweek okay well you know I like the idea of universal healthcare okay you got to wait

I first thing I always American was say about talking about Danish healthcare or Norwegian

“I believe you know is all you got to wait in line well you got some healthcare”

right we're striving to try to create some normalcy around the idea that citizens also I will write to maybe some form of universal healthcare we can't even agree on that really so that's there then you go further you go to the Russians with the Chinese or pretty much anywhere in Asia just the notion of the individuals place in society is far more collective they're part of something the idea the culture of the societal framework

is that you're individual rights only go so far and then you're part and most people feel that and it's not a religious based thing where there are members of the same church because

at much a hold on people as even they might in the United States today but it's the idea

“the society itself was constructed with this idea of collective responsibility so when the”

Russians drew up there the philosophers the great Russian philosophers I call the religious philosophers working with the political scientists after the breakup of the Russian Empire this

are first yield of the Soviet Union and the Bolshevism they were drawing up a system of government

that would resolve the question of how can you have a true democracy that wouldn't be corrupted by special interests and foolish leaders who would be not up for you need more of a plate of it was republic a republic that was based on people having roles which we all have collective responsibilities and you have distinct classes like Plato's Guardian class that managed the government, etc. Responsibility is conferred individuals within their collective obligations

not and we really struggle with that we've struggled that for decades but it's really coming to

“ahead I think in a way where every country is sorting through that but the bias in most country”

is much more towards limiting individual freedom for the collective good yeah yeah well is that makes sense and no it makes total sense well if you look at like Marxist dialectical materialism the individual has very little place at all it's very you know the individual go through a meat grinder and as long as the byproduct is social progress on the other side whether it's you know Mao's great leap forward or you know any of the Stalin's initiatives you know

it's sent people to gulog like that's that's okay in there in their model and so you know I think human human suffering is inevitable in that in that model and there are no individual rights and it's all about this sort of collective sense of progress and I think that is very alien and foreign to somebody thinking about western liberal democracy I also you brought a Plato

“himself you could think of him as you know he's it really obviously deep interesting thinker I think”

he had all these kind of interesting ideas about ontological truth and metaphysics you know which maybe modern scholars would disagree with me on or something but also if you read the Republic like it's sort of like this proto fascist book it's like you're separating the kids from the adults and like you know you have this guardian class that's like pretty hierarchical and stratified and you know it's it's it's not at all like a non-violent you know like a gallitarian

like you know book it all but 40 was one of the numbers that you got in your download as well and something very interesting happened you at the age of 40 another sort of metaphysical experience do you want to talk about what happened to you on on the train yeah so I've been this is between some of the Virgin Mary things and of course many years after the introduction to not only mystical experiences but what they might mean in terms of my work my

my role in life and trying to reconcile the sacred and so I was just on a normal I'd say everyday espionage a travel trip in Europe from Zurich to Vienna and on the night train and I'm sitting on the train I I carried my Bible with me which was engraved in glossy my

my name full name on the cover we all we got this Bible when we were in our first year at West Point

and I kept it over the years but I have a I have a superstition I have to carry it with me everywhere travel so I stick it in my box I then I have to have a cover story for because many of the times I traveled over the years I'm an alias you know alias person I've got a cover story I've got even phony passports and things for my that the agency provided right so I may have to explain who this Ralph Mollarson friend of mine it's almost a little bit like the odious maximum story you

know I have to come up with a reason why I'd add this guy's Bible with me so I opened the Bible and I had a pencil there that I just used to mark you know something and and I just usually just pick out something random read most times 10 to 15 minutes I wasn't you know I wasn't someone

to spend pouring I don't pour over biblical texts or Bibles or things and never did then

and now because I'm very distracted by my nation I'm going to Vienna exchange documents and going on the the next day and so I I look up at the clock there were very few people on this particular train in my car so I'm not paying attention to them I look up at the clock that's in the center of Swiss train right everything's clockwork and I look at the clock and then the hands the second hand is certain like get heavy it's like and I'm feeling like a weight my body's feeling

experiencing some sort of thing but it's like space and time or slowing down around me and I

“remember thinking that even but I didn't the thing wow this is very strange is it like”

having an epileptic fit or something I mean I was really kind of worried for a minute and then you know it's slow down my pencil I was holding I dropped it and just crashed onto the Bible like

then I row oh and then I just and then it was okay I had always said I was aware of God's presence

but I didn't really know what not in this way God was like there didn't see anything you know like I said it's not a visual thing I just was aware God was that close do you get a message well it was yes and but the thing about the presence that time that was different from just being aware is it was scary it was really scary because it was like the almighty creator who's also personal I mean great minds like Thomas Jefferson could never reconcile that yeah to be one of the other you

know I wasn't going to reconcile it on the train but it was the idea that it was not good to be in God's presence that that was my my reaction to the intrusion was whoa you could I already knew he could hear understand interpret everything I'm thinking or will do or might do because he's way ahead of me you know but this was kind of different right so then I did hear it was a very definite short

this was all very short but the started with I am have the verb was interesting I did I never

know it was a one church one church so I grain that my mind do not criticize my church the old and the new are one just old and new I interpreted that to be testament but I was old and the new are one swallow them whole and finally read it as a child so I know that's exactly what it was because I wrote it down exactly like I still had that original note somewhere exact that way because that's it and that was it was that mean to you well it's pretty I think it's pretty

obvious I didn't think it was obvious and it really did has taken years to just kind of like

in a way it's my Sunday school in a way because I never left as a child because I'd learn more from

this what I think it is but the one church means you know don't think of a church is the various churches Protestant Catholic even Buddhist my church is the church of believers whatever they call themselves even people would consider themselves atheists or agnostic I mean labels or labels even

“what you label yourself what is God's the God sees way beyond that so that's how I interpret that”

do not criticize my church is make a distinction between criticizing the sins or the crime of organized religion which we have every right to do from dating from the inquisition to the crusades to anything you want to take your hand on and you can get so obsessed by it and with so many people do that you're capable of loving God anymore like being being part of this community of believers because you associate everything with the fallen fallen angel right and then the really cool ones

for me because I immediately reread the whole Bible cover to cover after I heard about the old in the newer one the inspiration that gave me was for the first time on my life I was 40 years old on the train was to go reread the Bible from cover to cover just as a a history no longer you know as Jonah's whale really a whale is it a metaphor you know read sea parting no just read the damn thing but read it as a child meaning have that same receptivity to me I've had the most my own

grandkids like I said I got nine of them but they'll have asked me the hardest questions on religion because they just asked the most important obvious ones where's God why did Jesus die for our sins my daughter said did that mean when she's first time she went to the church of the Holy Sepulch and Jerusalem and watched Jesus's cross and she was just standing there for a long time she was like nine years old I said honey what do you think and she says why did Jesus have to die for us

“that's a kid reaction but that you need to read you know kind of like recharge completely on the Bible”

that way to think of it in that kind of a room we're given this document is what it is nothing holy about the thing itself and there things in there undoubtedly that are wrong and it's a language as soon as you got a language you get misinterpretations reinterpretations everything else but don't

analyze it just let it go and think read it and so I did and you think it's a coincidence that

“this happened at the age of 40 and that you received 40 in your dream and that you know 40 days”

of Jesus I don't think it is yeah I don't think it's a coincidence I'm 40 days of the desert 40 years in the desert for the Israelites as well there's almost 40 years of being away from God before you experience a communion with God and in your case 40 years of maybe more nihilistic less believing youth or something and then you you experience this nostic direct connection or something right that's a good exponent I can't I can't I can't say it's definitive

but I mean I I love your fascination with numbers I think the really interesting thing you do is

not just my numbers but the idea of tying numbers into a deeper understanding of reality itself and how that can help us tie together disparate kind of fields so we we think of as separate one of the problems we have is human beings is when you get too deep into the specialization of of different you know faculties you tend to think of them all a standing alone and you need to justify themselves and so the the number of people I've run into can speak across

various disciplines in that way to tie them together in a meaningful way that's pretty unusual itself. You also you have another dream it's final dream we'll talk about but you have a dream

“about the order of the broken cross which is this apocalyptic cult in Jerusalem and you have to”

sort of fly in there behind enemy lines BSCI case officer and recruit some spy and then you kind of infiltrate this order and systematically you know figure out what's going on with them and then you you give their information coordinates or something to the to the west and then they end up getting getting bombed and they you know the apocalypse is sort of saved or whatever is that symbolic like now after having led a long life of trying to you know being anti-pluriferation

of WMDs and you know going after people like Zarkawi and stuff so do you think that in some ways you are like this like almost like biblical prophet like character who is you like your mandate or your mission in life is to stay off the apocalypse and that the instantiation of the apocalypse in the modern day is in fact just the proliferation of biological weapons and you know WMDs and that's

“sort of thing and that that's your kind of divine purpose if you will. I think I can say this in a”

way it doesn't sound too grandiose but it certainly not a personal mission that I feel I'm on that if I don't do this somehow we fail as a species or but I'm very I'm just very aware that all the work I've done particularly in nuclear and proliferation I've gotten into trying to stop networks from trafficking and nuclear materials and doing which by the way a lot of people do and that's a lot of my solace or or I take comfort in in fact there are a lot of really great people working on this

with or without a sense of divine purpose I mean and I never expressed or carried into my

work the divine notion of purpose that I feel because I do keep that separate I'm a very strong believer in separation at church and state and not just as a way we think of ourselves as a country and a society but as a principle of of keeping that separate I have to unite them in my mind though I have to to reconcile them when there's conflict I learned at West Point duty on our country which is a very high minded principle and difficult to I say it's the greatest thing West point

gave me was a sense of principle of having honor doing your duty and doing it with integrity and understanding country not being the president but country being the people and our history and what we represent so that's almost religious right to do it right and so there's not that big of a gap but when it comes to the apocalypse and and those ideas yeah I'm very aware of I became a very aware of it I was I didn't start aware of it except through my dreams typically all my dreams and

the sequence of things I've described here today just here are our ways of saying I was condition preconditioned prepared for both my work and my my spiritual growth and growth and faith the same way they were assets to me to have some ideas what this was all about and I had to connect it still and I was sometimes reluctant to do that it took me a long time to write the letter to the pope

story there that I think could guide a lot of people we'll always reluctant maybe to do the

things we know we should do I'm a different yeah you know I'm I'm certainly no warrior you know that's out in the lead of everybody and stopping the world from being destroyed by nuclear weapons and proliferation but I'm one of them I'm there and unfortunately there are a lot of people like

“me and I think people should take great comfort that I have found that most people in public service”

which is a counter-intuitive conclusion to come to in today's world are our amazing people and and do great things and the best people and including a lot of the scientists into the Department of Energy and our nuclear labs things like that could get a lot more money

not working for the government or working on the outside so for them it's like for me it was never

about money or fame or recognition reward hmm and you mentioned the Department of Energy what was your exact title there I was the director of intelligence and counter-intelligence of the Department of Energy and you gave me this was the Department of Energy Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence and as we keep the real secret it's a little gray alien now you know as you know and we've spoken about this you know I've run into all these

connections between UFOs and and and and and aliens and or I don't know if they're aliens but some sort of like non-human presence and the DOE and you you mentioned actually like in your book that there was some sort of like hazing ritual brief that you got is that right yeah it was because it's such an obvious thing that bull threat on we like to do a thing which I was introduced to I didn't create it which we took a director level so deputy director secretary of energy was

involved and several other big wigs and me as director of intelligence and we take a new be the new be would be a political appointee very high level maybe deputy secretary or assistant secretary or some level who had just signed up and gotten their clearances and we're taking their jobs and we bring them down to the bowels of the Department of Energy where some of the most secretive things are guarded and you know where those are kind of already whispers when they come

by and you pull them into this back room like Maxwell's smart and the old old TV shows going back through layer and layers of secrets back into the vault and you get back into the deepest vault

“in the DOE and you bring them that's what the person's back there and they're already and you have”

a briefer and you have about six seven people senior sitting around a table looking very grim and the hazing ritual is to explain to them that we really did have aliens covered aliens one was injured one was not and we got the alien technology space technology of through through roswell you know et cetera and it was a real thing and the briefing is so good it's got all the real DOE call tickets you know we call secret access program saps they're called

and things on this to make it seem as real as possible and then the briefer goes through and has a very convincing story that he's now this person that's come in is being brought into this ultimate secret access program saps hold them at one as a member of a very rare team that transcends all the different presidencies and parties because you can't obviously breathe every president coming in on this you got to be very discerning and and only bring in people

when they can contribute and you're going to be part of the expedition that goes to we hired you in fact you were hired for this job but you're really going to go in this expedition to this planet we've they've helped us develop the technology to travel to their their location and create us when we get there so it's got all this and there's you know obviously there's corpses on tables and stuff to make this all look at what point do you tell them it's a joke

well it's somebody cracks up and it's somebody can't keep it in any longer we betray our own and the secretaries and that good actor the secretary of energy is literally in it's a deputy secretary who's in my case was in the room oh my god yeah so we raised it to the the the highest level and and it was funny is there are there are but there was a serious side to that chapter I put

in the book I wanted to first take a look I wanted to take a break from some of the subjects it was

writing a writing technique involved but part of it also was to to raise a bigger point that is

“something you are doing a lot of inquiries into and others I don't know what secret that I”

don't know myself I don't know everything obviously I used to know in CIA we got so paranoid at one point got so paranoid I couldn't pass a polygraph anymore and I they actually let me publish a chapter on that which I was really surprised when I was filling the polys because I

that I couldn't even tell the polygher for I didn't trust the polygher for let's put it that way so you get to this wilderness of mirrors it's a famous home but there's a famous book on it too about espionage where you start looking at everybody and everybody being knowing

“something you don't and the fact is I used to marvel at people walking around the halls of CIA”

that thought they were so smart on everything they used to talk smack and I don't know what I know and then I thought well there's probably stuff that this guy over there knows that I don't know so you start looking that way and DOE's even worse because I tease my CIA colleagues and friends I

say you know I learned some of this nation's most important secrets of DOE not CIA DOE does stuff

that man do you feel like that is true oh I know it's true you know it's true I know it's true what years were you DOE 2005 to 8 2005 to 8 now the point in the story though is it's a valid thing the wonder does the president know this has come up a lot in UFO history it started with really Reagan and Gorbachev using about they can he to get together so when the aliens come the US and Russian Reagan mentioned that he was joking but it was on his mind right and later

was president Clinton I know was interviewed by somebody and said do you believe that we have signs of alien life and we're hiding or there's a program or something and he basically said I don't think they tell me even though on the president he said that so it speaks to both the dangers of secrecy really because you can't get to that point you can't get to the point both of the that you don't want to share secrets because you just their secret or you're thinking

you got to withhold this from the president I don't think you can go there and have a small group of people that's when you could get into your deep state if groups form around subgroups form around the real government start to do things the real governments not aware of well that's kind of the textbook I don't believe in the deep state I've been since I was 17 years old and I'm 71 now I'm still very connected if there's a deep state I want to know who's in it and where it's operating

from and what's what they're doing because I have no idea but when you get to something like this somebody would say and I told you it would be me if I knew that we had evidence of extra terrestrial visits earth I'd go to the press what about if we just had evidence of some sort of anomalous phenomenon around our nuclear sites that we can get to that's intriguing you've talked

a little with me about that and it's the first I heard of it yeah interesting because if you

Google or even chat GPT like UFO incursions to be around like the national labs and nuclear sites even in that time range 2005 to 2008 you'll see stuff you'll see right I believe you F. E. Warren you'll see Malmstrom base and you'll see literally people a missile security officers who've signed affidavits saying that they've seen incursions and this is there's a great journalist who's a friend of mine named Robert Hastings and he's written a book called the UFOs

in Nucce and it is ubiquitous he has a 167 you know T. S. you know secret cleared you know missile security officers radar operators guys on the PRP program which I'm sure you're familiar with

“where you have to report if you're on IB profile you know because you're you're guarding the”

crown jewel secrets of American defense and they just see saucers tick tax orbs everywhere around our nuclear sites and in some cases these sites are getting shut down there's a 2010 case in F. E. Warren where literally Obama gets briefed because it was down for you know they say it was 59 minutes but I think he saw this Bob Hastings back channeled with this retired missile technician and he was in touch with some missile technicians on site and they attribute it to this

cigar shaped object that literally you know this this sort of tick tack thing right that shut down the the base and so you did you not hear of anything like that well I can I can say completely openly and transparently when I was in DOE and I was direct curve intelligence

I never was briefed on any of that so it doesn't mean it didn't occur and I take very seriously

“what you said I I I think in all likelihood a lot of those reports are true or at least being”

truthfully reported yeah and I don't know if it's because there are handled somewhere else which gets to kind of some of the big questions or whether because they're individual things that never get resolved they're they don't go anywhere but we can never resolve it because we don't know

encounter intelligence for the DOE isn't isn't hearing about these encourages like that's

“that seems so fundamental to this you know the safety of and maybe that's why it's impossible to talk”

about on the kind of the civil side on the open side or something because how can you say you know these things are flying with impunity over our sites but I don't know I wish there was some better way to talk about that I think you know I'm obviously I'm not the president or you know anybody it would be in that decision making but I think it would be a strategic mistake of historical proportions for a body of government at any given time to conceal that truth from the American

people thinking we can't handle it or somehow it compromises if our security is being or national security is being compromised that way I can't think of a scenario where it's better that the people don't know it than they do know it because if there's a problem we need everyone to know kind of have some things to go on and I don't believe in like the mass panic sort of things and stuff yeah yeah so it's really a question of trust and and when you get to trust the

government has very little trust the whole the whole deep state phenomenon is rooted in mistrust of government right and the assumption that we don't if we don't know what the government's going on we don't believe what we're being told there must be something really bad going on my experience is really kind of the polar opposite it's been you would be very disappointed at times if you

knew what we're doing because it's not always very good and it's sometimes it's malicious and

bad just bad wrong illegal yeah because you again if you're doing a certain amount of things

“some people are going to do illegal things like it's just inevitable that I think the public on”

this issue is probably so confused by the government's messaging because you have people like James Clapper Jim Semi Van guys who are like you know James Clapper's DNI you know them exactly yeah Jim Semi Van very high up at the CIA so like if you know them you know they're out in this movie age of disclosure saying you know this is not even intelligence is real we're in an arms race with China and Russia on this stuff we have a reverse engineering program like have you

called them up hey guys like what are you talking about like this is right well it no I haven't called them up specifically but I certainly and you've helped not only what my appetite but give me some things to work with in terms of broadening my I'm open minded on it I truly am I I'm not dismissing it at all I think that's a big mistake I was more going to the the idea of that we got in our hazing ritual is how do we handle these things and are are we actually

prepared for the reality that could come to us at any time you look at what you're ultimate we wouldn't tell us the thing we worry about most as intelligence community is the fear of surprise yeah strategic surprise nine eleven clock claps of the Soviet Union Arab spring aliens coming to the earth and we're not being able to have a clue yeah I mean I will every time there's an interstellar object coming now and you've got this astronomer saying

it's nothing and this one saying I don't know don't know it's so fast I mean I pay a lot of attention to that as a dress reader because I think one day one of those things won't be just a comment do you think nothing happened at Roswell or do you have it you have a take what we know is happened at Roswell maybe then or certainly over the years is I suspect something happened right and so the the question is is something we created and contain like experimental

flights or or development of our new aircraft I mean the whole history of which is a lot of CIA's history is on the technical side is yes our 71 and all these different aircraft we'd

“secret aircraft we'd the whole that the key to that is secret you know to be to be ahead of”

everything on that so we can fly them around the world and not be seen so the idea that we're doing exotic testing and their accidents and crashes and things that much I'd be surprised if there's not more of them any of us know but and again I wouldn't know that at CIA because I wasn't in those you know those those those saps or whatever you call them the thing that did surprise me at

DOE for all the incredible secrets many some of which were nuclear related things is just how

few of them related to this so again that could suggest two explanations one is it's done somewhere else and even I yeah was was haze by no or or you know there's less to it for the more banal reason or I'd call it that that no one's pulling it together you know when you talk to someone like Jim sinning for some event good call by the way the people you mentioned I have

fly about this no no I don't think I don't think they're lying okay they don't they have no motivation

“to lie about it yeah so I think it's well I think it's sincere and well intended statements you take it”

but you wouldn't put your money on them being right um I don't know what being right is he one thing I haven't been able to get from we had congressional testimony we've had this movie which I haven't seen yet so so I'll defer judgment on the on the movie but one thing we haven't heard from any of them and the question I would ask Jim Clapper or Jim Sammy banner anybody

if I call them up and as old friends is to say okay you say this and I've never heard that before

you say that before like what why don't you then say exactly what you mean what if if you have that as a statement you've say a summary of what you think you're not going to provide any like specifics of what you mean by that right when where how where is it now what does it my great may I understand it might be deeply classified they provide some specifics they talk whatever these are roswell's real events there were beings that came out of they think they say four

“beings that came out of this craft you know I think they've even mentioned one surviving or something”

so they do they do mention some specific details yeah so you know I don't know there those are real claims yeah I mean I like I said I see no reason to discount the people you mentioned among some of the other people I've heard are in it just because they don't have the proof um again I'd I'd implore the government to think hard about what they're trying to do here what's what's the purpose of not disclosing yeah of not disclosure secrecy one of the things I've

always felt strongly about is there's too much secrecy in the government yeah and it's this

kind of insidious secrecy that disruptive it's because of corrosive to democracy yeah and and this is coming from me in my community I just too much too much and other damn good reasons not to talk about certain nuclear data or who's a spy and when you have you know you're starting to pick up evidence of a spy in your ranks or you're gonna compromise the thing and lose it but other things we we just keep secret way beyond its time for no reason I won't even say a

parent which the qualifier I just say I could I could state categorically we we just can't do

“a thing could be an example of that or well I think it is not by virtue that it wouldn't be”

revelatory therefore somebody would say keep it secret because it's like huge going to change our whole impression of life in the universe okay yeah but that's the reason I would say they got to classify it you can't keep something like that secret yeah yeah you know you can't you you got to share that everybody in this country ought to know if the US government has concluded that there's life on other planets because we have evidence not because we've seen you know

tic tacks or I get all that you know but they're and they're still the big joke of course

what you know the better than I is you know why are these images always fuzzy but it's the idea

that but they even have explanations for that I say is like lent you know gravitational lensing and blue shifts and wretched there's the guy who talks about that is this guy help put off who's a university of instituted advanced study Austin and he you know is I think a long time CIA guy as well and he talks about Steven Hadley and the Bush administration is going through this whole exercise of should we disclose or should we not disclose and them reading the three

body problem as part of this exercise to figure out whether you know this is this Chinese science fiction novel that involves this you know try salarian alien race or whatever and the aliens having a lot to do with frontier physics as well clamping down on our physics because that's our tip of the spear ability to defend ourselves as the human race and so and he says they go through this whole exercise and they come out saying you know it's actually it's not worth it to to disclose

and and how put off said this on you know Joe Rogan like the biggest podcast in the world and I'm like let's go and on you like you have on the one you have this indatectable undetectable dark matter you have on the one hand people like Elon Musk like yourself who like you know super like amazing bona fides extremely respectable like highly intelligent you know know a lot of stuff and then you have Jim Semi van Hal put off Jim Clapper and they're all

like so pro UFO and they have like discrete stories of these things and I'm like once like how do I make sense of this you know yeah yeah yeah it's so can be well I think I think the way you make sense of it is to keep pushing it and keep interviewing and and keep do you think Hadley ever

judgment except to say you know I know Steve Hadley and I respect him too yeah I'd never heard

anything like that never heard anything no I mean I said you know I just want you to know one thing yeah I don't know and if I knew I probably would I I can't say categoric I know I would but I I can't see why I would keep that a secret even even at risk to myself yeah of being punished in some

“way yeah I just I I feel that fervently no I appreciate and I also you know I think if that”

weren't the case you probably wouldn't come on that show because I forget through I mean like I and I and I and I you know I'm not I won't belabor this too long but like there's so much it's like a whole ontology that has basically you can you can you can create around the DOE being like holding

the crown jewels or the US poster there's trans classified foreign material and you know special

nuclear material from the you know 1954 atomic energy act where you have restricted data anything that could be radiological and nature is immediately born secret upon sort of retrieving I know that yeah I'm sure you're familiar so like there's this idea that that is sort of this Trojan horse for UFO material and that you know nest nuclear emergency support teams like you know I spoke to my buddy uh UAP curb and and then the southern guy um David Grush is this whistleblower before this

and they were talking you know about those two things and so there's nothing that you know about

“any of that stuff no and then I you know hasten to add you know I think back up myself”

you know in in all modesty some guy coming in from CIA to head up intelligence for three years obviously the intelligence shop is not the place to go for this information or having access to it now there might be one person they trust with it and it isn't it is an organization dewy that that you could easily imagine because I described the the going in through the the multiple vaults back of deeper and deeper into the recesses and the building to the point where

there's not a sound coming in out of there other than the people talking in the room so you you you you have a culture where this is all very possible yeah and I have no another subjects a few that I've got roped into where there was a very exclusive group of people looking at it and to the point where this was even at CIA where we didn't put anything well specific very specific thing not generally done in very highly unusual irregular I'd call it

we're nothing pertaining to that was even put into any kind of a record yeah yeah yeah so anything's imaginable yeah it's possible yeah I mean at the soul foundation there's just a Stanford organization that's dedicated UFO research these NNSA guys national nuclear security administration guys showed up and so it's like why are you interested in this stuff and then there's this news nation which just covers UFOs a lot there's this slide that was like

advanced gravity propulsion research and it was a guy who had incurred some sort of a vana syndrome like you know biological effects but it was you know it was like that was his title and so I'm like okay deo he's doing this exotic

“well that doesn't surprise me at all okay no no I think UFO stuff surprised well there's there's”

there's a major distinction here you know looking into I would call all forms of materials and advanced propulsion techniques and energy related with people think at the part of energy just for a very quick very quick explanation of what it is which most people don't know is the part of energy consists of really three main components that are been it's a hybrid that shouldn't exist together but it's a product of a lot of politics that created DOE the one side

there's the energy part which contrary to a lot of a lot of common belief is not just gas and oil and fossil fuels it's also advanced form of renewables it's for a top nuclear power and of course it's for looking into advanced energy form some of which we don't gravity magnets it's what okay so all that's in the energy department yeah there's an overwhelming thought it's just you know Jimmy Carter created it during the crisis with the Middle East over gas and oil so there

hell but it's all this other stuff that's strengthened by the second major component of DOE which is

the science part of DOE which a lot of which does pure science so the pure science part of DOE is some of its research for ongoing needs of the US government some of it's just advanced things I've met some of the most fascinating people who do things like chaos theory and look

me on a whole track of thinking of my philosophy and my blah blah blah philosophy in a totally different

“way which is wow what if every human decision like in history is just permutations of choices”

we make freely but no matter what we do it's determined outcome because all those choices inevitably because are driven by an equation of human nature so they all drive you to the same result well I got some of those ideas from DOE scientists so who we're doing and some of them are into that esoteric those esoteric kind of aspects of their work and again wonderful people to talk

to some of them you know very very eccentric or whatever you want to call it and then the third

part is the National Nuclear Security Administration which is almost like I describe as an autonomous republic within within the DOE because it's got some independent status because for a time the NNSA was seen as not getting the attention and freedom of action it needed within a dysfunctional DOE it's not dysfunctional anymore DOE's quite functional but there was a period as far further to the politics so you had those three many ways complementary but in some ways independent

and then the National Nuclear Security National Laboratory Complex serves those three things energy nukes and pure science yeah and they they're they're proportioned in their work in what's required what the basic priorities are have you ever seen a one of one material like the super unique

“material that's never you've never seen elsewhere no okay I would remember that the other”

other you know common attribute is you realize how vast what I just described is so the probability that I know a lot of it is small and but it's prescribed so by that I mean I don't I'll be kind of vague but everything that's exceptional yeah typically you get read into individually yeah it's not just yours is a result of the job you hold yeah if it's important enough then you get like some little tapio on the shoulder and you have you know special things happen things happen they're

different so it's entirely possible that there are very few people that know a lot about

all the most important things if that makes sense because they're divided yeah and I could easily

see things like we're talking about being in a separate category which is even curtailed further by people who really need to know because the ultimate the need of the chapter that I do have in my book for this is called Need to Know so the other I'm trying to also illustrate a principle I've never been entirely comfortable about intelligence and government secrecy is the idea that need to know governs at all well that's fine if need to know is perfectly interpreted well I

think the public needs is has a need to know for the ontological truth the basic you know it's just like nuclear science is taught at every university but nuclear trade secrets should be classified I think that should be applied to right this if it's at all real and to me when people ask about you

“know my conviction in UFOs I always say you have to view everything probabilistically the idea that”

we're in some reverse engineering arms race I would probability weight much lower than I am sure that there are these objects showing up around nuclear assets all over the world not even there's a town in Japan we have our American alchemy Japanese shirts here there's a town in Japan next to the Fukushima pre-frexure which is their civilian energy grid that has a museum it's this mountain send gunmorey they have a whole museum dedicated to UFOs and all these geomagnetic anomalies and

they're obsessed with UFOs so I do think that is this ubiquitous you know commonality and that is that is the thing I think you can be most high conviction in the UFO world but um well then I can also see that there's just such an obvious tie in with um other than worldly life forms or intelligence and our highest forms of intelligence or most destructive things like nuclear I mean because there again the the whole idea I've tried to get accustomed or adapted to the reality of nuclear weapons

and nuclear secrets my whole life even having spent by by accident as I unfolded it unfolded as a

big accident but when I look back on it yeah it's like nuclear here nuclear here and it's always

it's a little bit like your appearances are all the nuclear sites it's like it keeps coming to me and you could even make a case if you wanted to write that script that some of these appearances were a divine awareness in sense of messages and of the need to warn and the because the essence of

there's not a prophet it's a watchman only responsibility is to warn so specifically in biblical

terms the idea of the watchman warning the people will be held accountable not for if it's true or stops whatever's gonna happen from happening that's not the accountability the accountability explicit accountability of being a watchman is to warn your job is to warn so when you ask me did you prevent or you you'd have to banish that idea from your mind that you were going to prevent the apocalypse or a shape in some form because I don't think any human being is gonna have

that responsibility but it's pretty hard just to do the warning part yeah because like you said if people genuinely believe that this is part of it and maybe you're a watchman for for you know shining a light on so so much on this factor particularly depending how things turn out yeah yeah we'll see I'm curious to see where this whole topic is you know in the in this in this kind of hazing ritual brief that you had on UFOs do you remember the date of Roswell that they

gave you oh no I don't have to thought my head I think I had it in the I think I wrote it in the book it is in the book and it's July 7th 1947 yeah do you think that connects with your download 747 oh my goodness good you know that's the first time I've ever thought that that might are you are you trying to tell the audience encoded fashion that you might know I think I'm being is what I've tried to be throughout the I've been completely and it's even better and complete

honesty was didn't even cross my mind so I couldn't possibly have fabricated that to make it more compelling there's one other one that's a really interesting there was a this will fit your

“you need to look this up if you don't already know it yeah so one of the scientists at DOE kind”

of knew my my stuff with numbers and this may have been a red explained to me the famous Bella

I never the Bella incident mm-hmm nuclear explosion mm-hmm it's it's called the seven they

labeled it at the 747 incident whoa as a nuclear test that South Africa made right but the suspicion is they did it on behalf of these rallies mm-hmm so suspicion I'm not saying to your viewers you know this is but this is the into the murky secret said the development of the Israeli bomb which of course the US kind of gave the big thumbs up handshake deal to you know you know you need this kind of thing at least that's what I what I've heard so the the point being

there is boy that's a very set Bella 747 you look up fascinating yeah I don't know I I think there's something very ontologically interesting about nuclear and it's some sort of energy unlock that if I were some sort of concurrent civilization whether it's extraterrestrial you know

“which all the people who deny UFOs at the highest levels often say extraterrestrial because I think”

it's a we don't have evidence that's extraterrestrial you know I think it could be like you know some sort of nonhuman or even ultra terrestrial some past civilization on earth or something but that it seems like they would want to monitor nuclear like that just seems like this really important unlock and that seems to be corroborated by all the evidence but that's to what that means I just don't know that now you're thinking of other people looking as maybe way past this point

there's some secret we may bump into mm-hmm I don't know that there is worried about us blowing ourselves up as we you know what they probably have no reason to worry too much about that mm-hmm but what if they're worried we're going to cross a threshold of knowledge that they're already aware of mm-hmm that has grave implications for them that's really interesting I mean it's like the

“building blocks of life for a life is if you think about the universe is like information the”

erratic like maybe you're getting into the root access or something well you know but it adds another element to this that isn't I don't think well enough understood or absorbed by the

public is we take for granted the kind of the expression of this incredible God's secrets call it

mm-hmm as manifested in our discoveries of those secrets mm-hmm and yet in every domain whether it's AI or nuclear or biological life sciences in every one of those domains our knowledge is so limited yes of what we're dealing with and if you go to we we think a little about the implications AI and I've heard some in various places I've heard talks even by some of the top guys on this and it scares the hell out of me well then yeah it does and so you know what they're

doing well it's it's that you could call it a process of like um Vel tacking or something like um Vel does like um this is my old colleague Eric Weinstein talks about this where it's like you get to deeper layers of ontological truth that the better your measurement instruments are

and materials and the more you put them under duress you know that you get these whole new properties like you know as you you put them under duress and so I wonder if you know it's kind of what we're talking about before it's quantum indeterminacy between level of energy and time if you have particle accelerators or nuclear blasts you might get weird ontological weirdness around of course those events particularly as little as we know the physics you know and especially since

the people at the top of those fields are guiding all of us and it's the same with these other

fields right and that's the I mean cloning yeah what a stunning yeah I never I never thought

I had a dream once on cloning yeah and we're all four clones and I thought that's never going

“to happen to my next time well you know that's what being cloned and act the life and that”

and itself we're playing on so we're at the point where we're in a way we've earned this as the only by in biblical terms again we're we created in the image of God yes I was always sees by that I at early age even I recognize this is special image of God means really it's a two way thing means God as a responsibility for us in a way that I'm sure God will fulfill and that we that's been the essence of everything we've talked about God's gonna send messengers God's going to

send his own song God's gonna do X and Y send a prophet mom but all the things that and with with

the typical characters behind him always the same people angel Gabriel and they're always the same

people always the same entities right behind all and then all that's gonna be his way of guiding us making sure we don't screw up entirely before and in the end we'll okay I'm going to give some summary assurance which sounds awful but judgment day and apocalyptic that things are going to turn out because that's really what it's about it's not about punishing us we punish ourselves it's about reconciliation it's about judgment meaning you there is a reward in a penalty

for what you do in your life you're not you're not here anonymously but that was the thing on the train it was like I'm a God's aware he's there right now he's like standing there hmm that's

why that's in the book because I'd never had that feeling before after it was a one time it was

just that deep and and so the same thing applies with handling God's gift so we're entitled we're given access the things that we in a way I've no right have access to but we're not there's no point to give us freedom in the whole garden of Eden story unless it's full freedom which because of the way we're wired we're going to screw that up to the most part and so that's all known yes you can write your equations now yeah God is God knows yeah it'll play out

how many hagaly and dialectical histories you want to write they all might be different but guess what they're all going to end the same way but when it comes to how the handling of the power

“yeah God turns out that's the unique test and that's what so I never get into”

profits it's how I don't profitize anything but predict when's the apocalypse when's it start one of the things about my dream was that I specifically remember was 2060 in the Camelian dream of the future where I was trying real foes and going out and trying I was already in an apocalypse I'm going back and forth the new part of the world have been destroyed with the great nuclear war of 2034 and I was going back and forth trying to find people trying to make bombs this is way before

I did the terrorist bomb stuff by the way wow yeah this you gotta dream about it this is the dream that I hadn't that you talked about you about the 1981 and you said you were flying on what the DOE would call UFO host yeah and it was I had the dream in 1982 and but this was these were our like our crafts like mark and crafts sent from CIA yeah from all managed and all connected to a massive super computer we call Aquana I didn't know that back then in in the bowels of

CIA underground do you think that we have propulsion modalities that transcend chemical combustion I don't know yeah no idea but in the dream it certainly yeah in the dream certainly yeah I didn't know what it was I just was flying around like it was all known but my dream didn't reveal to me how it but it was it was a manifestation of Reagan Star Wars thing star war which

“before Star Wars so he gave the great Star Wars speech I think in '84 and my dream was in '82 so I was”

already anticipating I'll call that this idea of a shield so my dream was basically the world had been divided into the world in the shield the world out of the shield and the whole point was to keep of the UFOs and intelligence was a global intelligence service that would keep out keep out the people trying to break through the shield well yeah that's fast so now we're into what

thing was it was a high-altitude nuclear test but it was a defense against Russian ICBMs

and soviet side ICBMs and there's even a rand corporation paper a couple years before it was pulled off around speculating us to how that would be done and Malmgren was at the Institute for Defense Analysis at the time and they've been involved in every missile defense you know system since then and he directly ties blue-gill triple prime to Star Wars and to you know a strategic defense initiative and so then there's again there's this like weird question of like is there some dual use around

UFOs for that or something yeah I don't know and you have the golden dome now you know

“well I think one of the questions I know people are asking but just like when you're hearing us talk”

news about this is we're sort of due for another big transformational change and we've had

of course the industrial age and then we had not recently the internet age and it strikes me that we're due for something like this this idea of something propelling us into a future we really haven't anticipated as over in a way overwritten on everything every possible permutation of our future something that's going to change on them we're going to say well it's not that future after all it feels like we're on the verge of a paradigm shift sure it does and it feels like at least for

this stuff I'm investigating feels like the dam is going to break because there are if the kind of incumbent you know current paradigm is like you know inside of the dam or whatever there are like 15 different vectors of like holes in the dam and that thing is just it's about to burst like you think that that when I hear you you know talk about all these different things that you're working on too that's the media reaction I had is what we just said there with one another

it says we're ready for a big paradigm shift it's probably going to be something we've never

anticipated yeah based on something we didn't see coming and the most important thing of that is

“it's happening at a time and I think very few people understand this I'm not trying to I don't”

want to talk become descending but I just I myself struggle with this a lot we're time and scale is time is rapidly shrinking on us everything is more accessible so fast we can't process it much like make make good back in the day when you mail things and you set cables and you you mentioned now easier you could contemplate things you could make even then it was rough making good decisions and at a certain point we reached a happy medium where this was speed increased to the point

we can better decisions faster but now we're at the point I'm sure of this in government or even maybe the private sector I think where the amount of things we have to decide at the speed we have to decide and it's overwhelming us at the scale it applies because of population growth and how everything is interacting in the way the internet is tied everything together well that's what that movie age of disclosure felt like it felt like the government trying to get in front of

all these kind of truths coming out and figuring out a way to frame it or something you know I hope so for a pro act it would be good sure yeah but you know it feels it does feel like that is inevitable like this stuff is is sort of coming out and I wonder in some ways like you believe in angels right yes I do yeah of course so these all these things have literally happened to you and I wonder if like it's like the age of disclosure has their veneer of like extra terrestrial

your veneer might be angels demons eschatology the Bible if I were like would you believe that angels might trope around nuclear sites that might seem more plausible to you well in a way in a way and I'm you know I told you I'm so hesitant to link UFOs to faith and mysticism so with that gigantic caveat yeah I'm sorry no no it's fun it's fun yeah yeah I don't I don't think it discredits religion or faith or in any way in salts what's trying to figure out some underlying

truth between you know the the way you're describing what's happened to you personally and then these you know all these other intelligence officials who are saying we are not alone you know right

“well I think I think where it ties I was getting to that my big however you know is is if you”

believe the one like like you said I'm utterly there's not even any doubt on my mind about all these things and it also the existence of angels like Gabriel and now what how you described that or what that reality is whether you know obviously the wing figure coming from is I think symbolic of a messenger from a different state of reality but now we're getting very close to being visited

I've never really doubted the the the sort of actual aerial realities that intelligent life must

“exist in the universe I've really never questioned that what I I want to see is the evidence of it”

and begin to understand what that means yes but I've also wanted to understand how space time makes that work because everything is so distant from us that even with the dance forms of star trek forms of travel which I love that show when I was growing up it's hard to imagine we're going to intersect it precisely that moment of advanced development of our civilizations in this place in our place that would be a very low odds not impossible but and then but then when you introduce

something that we just talked about as being some breakthrough of truth somewhere that changes

an entirely our notions of reality we already know we haven't unified physics well that's a

big one right there yeah there's a reason for that and I don't think Einstein just got lazy after you know he's earliest part of his life when he was at his greatest I will I will sort of reinforce one idea though as I I have a much greater belief in younger people like you and others pushing us into the future than I do my generation and not so much because we've done achieve what we want to do but you know your mind's change you don't you know I I don't deserve to be the

person I was getting all the insights and things to guide my life and my work that I now that I had done so if I want them now it's more for my own you know satisfaction and that's not good enough right but but the idea behind this is that that we need people don't consider themselves experienced or informed through the has degrees and all this to think like you and others think and to push us that's where the inspiration is going to come I mean Einstein was a clerk when he was doing his

greatest work and there's so many scientists who were like that now yeah maybe he's a genius but yeah yeah yeah no it's yeah it'll be interesting to see what happens it feels like they're all these kind of heterodox threads of science that weren't taken seriously at all you know for the last 30 40 years and increasingly they're kind of invoked and being taken seriously and in certain cases

“I think they've been behind you know walls of secrecy or stigma you know things like like”

all documented is you know the the CIA's efforts in remote viewing and Paris psychology and you know that's I think a well-respected intelligence modality and you know at Langley but um you know only until the last few years you know that was that was kind of rested out of the government with the Freedom of Information Act requests in 2017 and only the last few years are people saying there's something clearly here and I think the the problem I have with the super anti UFO people are like

they you know say oh this can't be possible this observable thing that you've seen a million different times with quality credible people coming out and saying it can't be real because of the physical this physical because of our current physical model of the universe but if you were to

bet on the anomaly historically and against the physical model of the universe you would always

be right you know you're always wrong if you bet on the physical model of the universe so I do think we're on the precipice of something exciting we I agree with you totally and I hope it's

“very positive I I worry I'm one one aspect that I think as we learn more about the reality we're”

creating rather than the reality that exists we need to make sure we continue to make that distinction and that can that can take the the smallest form of knowing when you're a virtual reality uh figure in you know happier playing on your iPad or if you're kid making sure the kids you know don't lose their minds in in in in in a fantasy reality and this is coming from someone who's had these very vexing disturbing this oraning dreams that I've had and who might have

talked and but it was a problem for me in summer specs too that I've outlined and then there it goes up one level from that where you have people you know relying on chat GPT to be their girlfriend or boyfriend or give them life advice I'm saying wow this is this is more than dangerous people are you know the idea I I I said at one point we talked about identity a little bit and how culturally that was different from people or more individualistic societies versus

say common common bond societies yeah at depend on one another have a perception they're more involved with one another but think about it from the standpoint of of how that changes when you can create a reality that doesn't exist and replace your really because that's not

you see no hope in your future and you don't have a good health care you don't have a good job

you don't really have any hope you're gonna break out of this terrible cycle we put some we I think that's a we thing originally yeah some people break it on themselves but we as a country oh more to people than we've given them this isn't a now problem that we create this has been a growing problem for decades and an into that environment comes the temptation to create alternative lives and realities I wouldn't as well you know watching Zuckerberg and Mark Zuckerberg and

others trying to create this idea of having people out of the one of these what people come on these virtual reality so they can buy imaginary plots of land so they can make money off it yeah

I mean wow yeah no it's dystopian that's part of the reason I'm into the UFO thing because I think it's

“if our life is if this is somewhat of a simulation I think there's a life affirming version of”

the simulation where we're in a platonic cave and you can ascend outside and see the light that's lighter than light and you know witness great things in this reality and so why would you go into this sort of bit compressed reality and so that's what motivates me when I'm trying to close this gap between well super well respected people like yourself and then these other people like you know Chris Melon deputy assistant director of intelligence for you know under bushing

and Clinton he even he just said he was like you know we want to put the CIA's director of science

and technology I think it was the one of the last ones he was like we need to figure out what she

knows about UFOs and so I'm like I'm like it's maddening to me like how would how would you advise that I figure out what's going on well I think you're doing a good job of it the best thing you can do is what you're doing is interview credible witnesses avoid drawing conclusions until you have to but by the same token I think most of the most of the mind shut phenomena whether it's UFOs or frankly a lot of traditional things there's a whole massive number of people like a name

many but I won't bear us people who just flat won't deal with terrorists having nukes or big biological weapons simply because they want to think that you know men and men wearing rags you know you can't can't do it but it's the idea though that you just miss something because you

“want you underestimate them and that's what you're not doing and you can't underestimate and the”

people tend to do that and dismissive dismissive people anything I've ever dealt with there's a group of dismissive people yeah because you're usually placing your bed on probability basis yes not impact basis yeah and and the real risk equation for any good national security person or someone doing what you're doing is to assess risk is intent times capability times consequences yeah so we sometimes assume intent that's typical that's not a lot

zoom attend they can they don't one part of our failure 9/11 frankly is intelligence community was we didn't assume they had the intent to do that yes and then the capability you don't even really look into you don't see it because you haven't really described that intent to them that they do something that audacious yeah and then of course the consequences while they're really looking for so then yeah you you multiply those things out but it's the same thing with UFOs you see

like your your best bet is an observer trying to maintain some credibility yeah like astronomers who cast judgment and every new visitor to our solar system is to dismiss it as anything and then of the day comes at some point when it's a real thing hold they they're they're they're no word of be found yeah yeah yeah exactly you know exactly yeah did you know Glenn Gaffney at all the

“I didn't because he this guy I I like him a lot he's a nice he's a good guy he was um he's I think”

currently on the board of era the Aldo main anomalies research the resolution of what is done he was the director of science and technology at the CIA and there's there's a couple of people one of which was under oath in front of congress said he blocked the transfer the transfer of UFO material from uh Lockheed Martin to Bigelow Aerospace do you know anything about that no but it's pretty specific it is specific it's a specific yeah anyways well okay well I appreciate you indulging my

crazy girl I'm not indulging I'm hunting it it's fascinating I I will say one more thing about like wasn't when Glenn was the head of director of science technology but I I've had a lot of interactions with him over you know the decades and one thing I did learn from the interactions is that most of what they do most of what they do I had I wasn't privy too I had no no reason to be brought into from an idea of perspective so there's all kinds of things I probably don't know

I'd had you because I know that means a lot to you because yeah I you know it's it's it's a whole

“different conversation but I try never to be deceptive or lie that's what it would be even when”

I'd have a reason like you you're given an alibi because you told not to tell so you can lie no I'll find a different way to not say it than lie yeah yeah and I've learned that actually it's extremely important being in a manipulative business which you can't deny intelligence can be it's even more important to maintain your personal integrity and and and ability to to be credible with people so if I'm dealing with the Russians we've had some stories about that or I actually

there's a chapter in my book where I'm dealing with Syrian intelligence or any other intelligence service in the world or country my credibility lies and not lying to them yeah and because then what I tell them is suspect so then I contaminated whatever sea I has to offer that so I I make it a not only a habit but my my personal integrity I I also believe and I've given lectures on this there's no contradiction or conflict between recruiting agents and running them

and there obviously use aliases and things that's not deceptive if your goal is to protect the agent the agent knowing your real name is bad for the acer yeah yeah those kinds of things yeah of course but when it comes down to a real litmus test how far am I willing to go for the agent versus what the agency tells me to do the agent I will defer to the agents welfare because this is

a human being so ultimately I'll find a way to reconcile the two I don't like to halt

flat out the five headquarters if I can help it but I have done it and then the test is a different test when I flat out say no or defy them and don't do what I've been told to do but I don't recommend to everybody out there but in those cases I'll I'll I'll hold up to it usually before I'll say no I'm not going to do what you just told me to do then there'll be a discussion yeah and this is again a test of the integrity of your organization whether it's CIA or any other in the US government

what how does an organization react when you've done something you think is either you're told to do something that see either illegal or immoral or both how do you handle it and it's a test that the organization whether you're asked to do that now what I personally I've said to myself personally

over all my careers and I never had to go to the mad on it to the point I quit but I would have if I

can't reconcile that I will do what I know is the right thing to do yeah so we did some bad things but I understood the reasons for it and we did it for not doing the wrong thing but just because things sometimes your face with a terrible choice yeah you don't have an option but I just wanted to stress that because it's it's come up again in recent times you know you just to be very careful about work through the whole for example uh for getting his name Edward Snowden defected

yeah to try it in the Russians and he's been described by people as a whistleblower and and there was a resale whistle blowing aspect to his motivations intentions and actions but it was far exceeded by the damage he set out to cause to the US government for no whistle blowing reasons so you have all this it's complicated with him because on the one hand I do think

“it's important that the public know that the NSA is a back door and every big tech company”

they have these programs like prism and bullrun and they can just spy on you through your smart TV and your phone and like that's a that's messed up that's not that simple okay no it's not that simple okay but the other the other part of the answer to that question is the government should in fact have done maybe some things different than he alleged and so he had there was a absurd but he went far he definitely you know confirm are beyond that sure sure and things

that had nothing to did just pure in immense damage to national security with no whistle blowing benefit so he knew exactly what he's doing and then you look into the whole background now but why do I single him out I'm not trying to make him a particular you know target of my wrath or rire is said this is this is the problem in a nutshell is citizens individual officers integrity everybody comes together on trying to maintain the integrity what we're doing and the

“more it's secret the more it's dark and deep the more we have to to do it the more disclosure is”

necessary at the right level we've talked so many ways about how we limit it where we limit it you know

think more is gonna come out or yeah I can't imagine it's the end of the story right it's just

“almost in a way feels like it's just beginning yeah yeah I mean yeah that would be my expectation”

as well I mean I like in the world in which we have a reverse engineering programs material all that stuff it is actually like a serious national security issue if the left hand's not talking to the right you have these bigoted special access programs that are like unquariable not answering to any sort of civilian organization there's zero congressional oversight and then you're competing against Russia in China who have these central bases where they can just you know

pluck scientists from wherever in place then they are and get them to work on whatever they want like if the world were that's real it's it would seem like a dire issue just for you and like

I always say that as a dog whistle to the national security people all I care about is the true

I care about the truth come out but like the watchman yeah yeah well one one you know more

“thing on that I think it's can't reach a conclusion but when you start thinking area 51 and”

the crash and you've you've said this I haven't done that research and I haven't looked into aside from and you've been area 51 yeah yeah and you've never seen any UFO the alien UFO I'm sure they yeah but I mean they're kind of two explanations one is it's our testing what crash and yeah we're covering that up and two is it intelligent life was there watching what we're doing and that's a barrier which you would be and at that point we're all in nuclear

tests I think it's that because they're over you think maybe it was that no it's plausible I don't dismiss it because in in 1945 over Hanford plutonium base you have this guy this pilot butt claim falling this like you know ball of light around you had you had stuff happening super early in 47 I mean Robert Goddard who was a rocket pioneer in the US had just been testing V2 rockets right at Roswell so it's like I don't think we were testing super advanced

propulsion you know there was some interesting stuff happening in Nazi Germany to that effect but you know you had comular stuff and you had these interesting scientists doing some stuff in that in that

“world but I think what happened at Roswell was was otherworldly I do yeah that's why I wanted to”

reinforce the possibility I don't see how you can dismiss it yeah unless you know it's not in other words if someone this is another reason to declassify because if there was an internal experiment or you know put something maybe it's the problem with that even if you then declassify and and put it out there then there's this possibility we've continued over the decades to work

on whatever we were working on and it was an early miserable failure there's always that explanation

why we won't release yeah well that's also maybe my take I don't think we've done much with what we've recovered I think it's like you know um caveman with the USB drive the caveman doesn't understand you you know uh information theory they have nothing to plug it into there's no interface it's not like an iPhone you know that that would be my guess so well when you consider the fact that probably one or the most at least plausible continuations of our species over the next hundred years

is that we evolved to the point where the AI crew he create doesn't want us around anymore and we'll put all the all the movie but that that seems so plausible the problem with being so clever as we are on on an artificial intelligence is it's easy to imagine us out programming the reality of our lives and in ways not they will lose control aspect of this is just one thing but I could easily see humans deciding that the perpetuation of the species and the continued

evolution of human beings will no longer follow the the script of what might have started is a a biblical kind of idea and to the point where the one thing God would have wanted to preserve in the evolution of not just human species but all life on earth if it's a god god plan is the idea of mutation and the idea of the weak moving on to take over the earth as it goes and a definition we wouldn't think of this is a stronger in the superior and even the idea

Darwin laid out of the survival of the fittest I kind of because of my faith look entirely the opposite now which is really that is it's the idea of sacrifice drives everything and certainly if there's truth to the idea behind Christ is the idea he came to sacrifice and therefore the way forward

we don't emulate by the way how many emulates Christ but also people like Gandhi or

Mandela or people we admire you know who took the path of Tolstoy was one of the greatest pacifist in a world history the way he wrote and thought we don't really follow that lead we kind of

“respect it but we're not completely different paths yeah on on on that note yeah I think it should”

you know everybody out there should try to imitate you know sacrifice and and be be Christ like

and yeah I mean this is a fascinating model of human evolution is you know your your upward paths your natural selection is actually selflessness and it's not it's not the it's not the Richard

“Doc and selfish gene it's the the selfless gene or something yeah well I mean you think about it”

human beings are at this point at the apex of of the global domination on the basis of what's really our conquering aspects are our animalistic side and we have this other side we're aware of that's more charitable and sacrificial but we have a choice whether we're bay one of the other

“and the the the way forward looks like it's domination looks like it's control and in fact I”

have always felt but even more so is faith developed that I don't look at world history is sort of

Marxist Leninism versus capitalism and all the rest of that at all anymore I look at it is even people who's who's life's committed and dedicated to making money is for control it's all about control and the opposite of what God gave us all was to let control go and allow us to explore creation on our terms and and we spend human endeavors to enslave everybody again that's it that's an upshot it's almost like that's my sermon on the mount right well that's a beautiful note to end

on golf mall at Lars and thank you for taking the time and sharing your remarkable mystical experiences and indulging my UFO questions and for being here really appreciate you thank you Jesse it's been a great pre session for me I appreciate it it's been an honor all right you