We think of the founding the founders as a bunch of intellectuals.
They wrote these things that thought we'd thought read these books.
And we sometimes make the founding overly academic. Breast, I think the founders were states. They're not political philosophers. They were very learning, and they read these. Yeah, they're formed by these ideas that are extremely involved.
But they're primarily states. They're trying to make these ideas come to light. And the one who did that, more than anybody else. He's more drawn. He's underestimated as a thinker.
He's seen a figurehead, a revolutionary general.
“But I think the important realising in which his leadership was the founding country based on his ideas.”
Americans are capable of achieving extraordinary things when they have the freedom and opportunity to do so. This is American potential. You know, for 250 years, America has been writing its own story. It started with what you could call the world's most famous breakup letter, the declaration of independence. That told the world we would chart our own course and govern ourselves.
But that was just our first chapter. When settlers looked west and saw the Rocky Mountains standing in their way, they didn't turn around. They kept going. All the way to the Pacific Ocean. When inventors were told something couldn't be done, they found a way to do it.
When challenges appeared, Americans met them with determination, grit, and unwavering belief that no is not the final answer.
“That spirit of independence has driven innovation, exploration, and opportunity for generations.”
It's a belief that tomorrow can be better than today. That problems are meant to be solved. That ordinary people can accomplish extraordinary things when they're free to do so. As America celebrates 250 years of independence, we're looking back at the ideas and the unique American spirit. That have shaped our nation from the beginning.
We'll be discussing these ideas with today's guest, who is the Kirby Professor in constitutional government, as well as the Dean of the Van Andle Graduate School of government. At one of our favorite institutions, Hillsdale College. I want to welcome Dr. Matthew Spalding to the podcast. Dr. Spalding, thanks for joining us.
That's great with you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm so excited. We've been talking about America's 250th birthday, you know, this whole half year plus. And talk about unpacking a lot of the founding principles and, you know, how they manifest today and encouraging people to read the declaration of independence at all. So I'm so excited for this conversation because we're going to just get to kind of get into the straight stuff, the meat of it. So I'm really excited for your expertise and to have this conversation.
I kind of want to start with like framing what kind of how radical the declaration was. Like the idea at that time to just kind of tell King George third that we're going to govern ourselves. I mean, how right. I'll give a deal with that. No, I think you're right. It is quite radical and we really forget the extent and the importance of that.
It's it's it's very radical in the sense that Republican government had always failed and here they are going to try it again.
It was a crazy idea they were going to go to go against England, the most powerful nation in the world.
“But, you know, what's what's really most important about it, which I think goes to the heart of the matter, why it's still a live wire today,”
is that in a world dominated by monarchies and despots and tyranny and tribal rule, these Americans who had ruled themselves for some time learned how to self-govern. Decided they were going to try this experiment Republican government based on this concept that we are all equally human. That is everyone had a right to rule themselves. That is a that's the radical idea.
I like to use the word radical as opposed to revolutionary revolutionary. Revolutionary makes me think the French Revolution and the Russians and the Chinese and all the other revolution followed. The American it was revolution since it was breaking with Britain. But it was radical. I like that word because radical means going to the root of thing as is the word radish. They went to the basic root of it, which is it in in history, in political thought, in Christian thought over over centuries.
Going back to the Greeks and Romans, this idea of what it means to be human. And you're updated in the modern context, this idea of a human equality, which means consent. That was a radical idea in 76 and to be very loud, it's still pretty much a radical idea today.
Indeed, in most parts the world, that's not how government runs.
So what were some we mentioned about some of the past ideologies and some of the building blocks is to where the founders got their ideas.
“What are some of those building blocks going to look back?”
Well, you know, part of what I've been teaching is for decades and wanted to lay all this out as best I could. You know, we oftentimes think of the declaration particular, but the American Revolution is a modern activity in the context of the enlightenment and things going on around them. And the modern context is important. They were very much influenced by the civil wars in England, friends.
But you know, they were deeply influenced by older tradition.
They were clearly influenced by the Greeks, Romans, especially Romans. If they were the most all studied law, the signers of the declaration. Many of the new Latin, which means they knew Cicero. Most of the signers had studied law, which means they had studied Cicero. And many of them, not all of them, knew some Latin, which meant they also studied Cicero.
“The influence of Roman law, which meant Greek ideas was very, very important.”
Obviously, the British common law, the rule of law system in England, they developed over centuries. And then broadly speaking, they're deeply influenced by the culture, the Christian culture over time. And wanted to absorb that into their culture, despite the fact that they wanted to establish religious liberty, which was one of their key principles, in order to avoid those civil wars in England. You know, they studied history, they talked about history all the time, which meant British history. So they're very well-read, they're very well-studied. And all of that gets expressed in the declaration.
Darston calls the declaration an expression of the American mind, which is not his expression, not his mind, but the American mind that had been developing for a couple of decades. But especially for the last years in the pamphlets debates for the declaration. So as I reflect on the declaration, it seems like a few of the radical concepts for that time that have shaped our nation, our rights come from Mark Creator, that we're entitled to the pursuit of happiness, and that all men are created equal.
There's maybe some others, but those are ones that always stand out to me.
“Those are planning to get started away. Yeah, are there any ones that you think were the most radical, or that you have particular insight into as to that they really have changed the course of history?”
No, no, I think those hit all the right ones. I would actually start with the opening line. When in the course of human events, we never think about this. You know, nowadays we think of history as this grand grand overarching thing over which we have no control. You're in debate, someone says, you're on the wrong side of history. But that's not how they thought. History was the course of human events. Individual human beings making voices, making decision. So far as that, that kind of gives us a broad context. They also thought that ideas transcended history. There were ideas that weren't merely our subjective opinion.
So now add to that the points you've made, which are truly radical, all men are created equal, right, do not come from government. They don't come from courts. They are grounded in our nature or tickled there in doubt by our creator. And among those rights, the most important and the most fundamental and alien life liberty that you've had to us. Those are truly radical ideas, which in life and I think still in life and our society today indeed are very influential in the whole world at this point.
Precisely because of the turn that the founders made back in 1776, they rejected the old that old world of despots and kings monarchs and they turned towards this concept, which had popular government for sure, but also a notion that our rights are grounded in our fundamental humanity. Under the philosophical traditions, the Romans, but also the biblical, the Christian, the broad religious sense of creation, even though it was non-denominational, non-specific. That combination of things radically changed, I think, the course of world politics. So that you now then look at government very naturally and compare it to that.
The sense followed before the law, the rule of law itself.
And so it kind of centers much of our politics now, less on the rulers than the rules of the people, the open source of those rights, and it grounds so much of that politics in the individual.
“It's not an individual completely and a vacuum with nothing around them, the politics, culture and society matters.”
But basically it turns on and the new corn of the realm, if you will, are the decisions made by those individuals, the mistakes they make, the triumphs and tragedies, how they make decisions as a governing people as a group. The laws they passed are they just, and the declaration really refocused all of those questions, such that today that's how we naturally think of politics, the basic concept of liberty to use the broad term liberty is really kind of the catch off if you will for all of those things.
The rise of political liberty, long over western civilization, the tradition, very slow, really takes ground in a much more practical way with the declaration. And I would argue that is the declaration in the world really is the touchstone for that.
I've always been struck by thinking about the declaration in America, but think about the declaration in the context of, you know, other countries.
People want to come here during the communist revolutions in Eastern Europe is there's very famous episodes where people were reading the declaration of independence. In order to, you know, talk about escaping the the imposition of communism. And I think you're absolutely right that these ideas still very much shape or work. The founders talked about virtue of fair amount. I know there were from different Christian traditions and all, but they did talk about virtue a lot.
“Why did they believe that a personal character was essential to self-government?”
Well, if you're turning away from forms of rule where an individual or an aristocracy or an oligarchy rules you and you're turning to self rule that puts new news on whether the self can rule.
Not only in terms of self-governing politically, make decisions about laws, just betting juries, let's say, but ultimately that that rested on government of the self.
So it really dependent upon those virtues in order to be self-governing. The other thing I would add is think of virtues less as that, you know, that old philosophical or theological sense, but think of it in very broad terms.
“These are human excellence of human flourishing and they thought those were important for self-government as well.”
It occurs to me that the founders really were taking a big risk here in a lot of ways, but by focusing on self-government and really when I would consider rejecting a top-down authoritarian approach and going with more of a bottom-up Republican approach. They were taking a big risk because, you know, maybe everybody's too dumb or maybe everybody participates or maybe there's a lot of ways that that can fall apart.
And I know that it was shaky as it all started out in the first few decades of the country and there were some parameters they put around it.
But if we talk to that, like the risk of putting the power with the people that are being governed. No, you're absolutely right that the chance they were taking here was overwhelming, I mean, they had almost two to a man come from continental Europe in particular from England. And here they were out on this frontier, first of all, literally in the middle of nowhere surrounded by enemies with none of the things the things we would consider to be the building blocks of a civilization. And they're going to start this country, so on top of all that they're going to start this country and have people rule themselves.
That is a crazy, really crazy idea when you think about it. Now, since the end of the French in New York in 1763, the colonies had really gotten existing prior to that by some 50 or so years.
Since 1763 or so and that time and we lived before that, they were governing ...
They were largely living on their own with the protection of the British Empire in terms of its navy and great power.
“They had some experience to base it on, but it was a huge leap of faith, and I think it was a leap of faith based on their confidence in their own people.”
What they had already shown, they were capable of doing, they were well read and well studied in these things, they learned what we would call the arts of liberty. They also had great confidence in these ideas, as they believed it was just not to be ruled by a king or a desperate but to rule yourself and for a people to self-govern. So I think the combination of things really pushed them almost in the dust day they take this leap. Once they realized that England was no longer going to allow themselves to rule their own to rule the colonies.
One of the famous lines is we talked the declaration talks about the pursuit of happiness.
I think that's one of the things that sometimes we just impose our own interpretation to, depending on where we live in or something.
What do you think it meant to the founders at that? That's a good question.
“Today, of course, we hear the pursuit of happiness, whatever makes you feel good, or whatever that you want to do with it.”
Now granted, there's a lot of room there, right? The founders believe there was a lot of room for people to make mistakes. We're also choosing to choose their own way in the world, have different vocation. Having said that, if we look around at what they did say, we do have some parameters. The founders, their letters, their writings, all take this concept of happiness very seriously.
And they all would have known that in Greek thought, in Roman thought, in Christian thought throughout all the great political writings. Happiness is the end of man.
And happiness here goes back to your first question.
Happiness is connected with virtue, living well, flourishing, being excellent in excellent human being. And happiness ultimately meant substantive happiness. You might do different things, you might have different things you enjoy. You might have different passions. But the general things that brought substantive happiness, community, family, great friendships.
But also religious liberty is component of happiness. So pursuing ones religious beliefs peacefully was component of happiness.
“And so there I think there's a lot of signals that the concept of happiness, which you don't have by right.”
I would point out, you're right to pursue it. But happens itself as a substantive thing, which I would actually suggest is more like the the bicycle understanding of happiness. You don't know, or human flourishing in a very full and complete sense. Yeah, it seems like a concept that man, we really benefit as a society to recapture or remember. It just seems like that is such a substantive, like real sort of happiness, like what really does make man's heart.
Feel good and be satisfied and happy versus I feel like a lot of times now, we're grasping after wimsical things or less substantive things at times. Like, kind of here you talk about it and I'm kind of urine for that time, you know, where we're really focused on the community. One of the things that the declaration does and actually the thought of the founders does generally, which we've lost, is it combined the notion that. We are individuals, that is, that the point of the realm in humanities, the human person, they make decision, they make, they think they're rational.
They are the ones that have makes these choices, they govern themselves. But at the same time, they had a very firm notion that in our nature of whether you understand that nature to be created by God or in the philosophical sense of nature. That makes man unique as opposed to the other animals. That in that nature, there is something that gave us some guide. And it was it merely our individual subjective opinion.
But when you think about things like happiness, virtue, what it means to be flourishing, it's a human being, it gave us some substance.
You know, today, of course, we think of these things and in much more narrow ...
And we want to maintain that great sense of liberty that they designed or brought it to being. But you know, we sometimes lost the concept of how that liberty was to be understood. The, you know, I was like to point out that their English, the English language has two words that are very similar. One is freedom.
And the founders who a man chose to use the word liberty and I was always struck by that.
That's fair. I love to hear what it is. Freedom is a, is a, is a dramatic word, free height. And you think of freedom in the sense that when you let your dog out at night, you set them free. It's a general word, right? The, the, the sign or the flag is, flying freely, it's unrestrained.
Liberty on the other hand is an old Roman world, word, a libertoth. And liberty is distinctly freedom for a human being. You don't, you don't give your dog liberty. But when, but human beings are all, are, you know, have liberty.
And so it's somehow, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a freedom, but it's appropriate for a human being.
So it naturally has all this additional substantive meaning to it. That I think gives it, gives it a lot that we have sometimes, uh, forget. So freedom is kind of a component of liberty. It, it allows liberty to come forth the element. Yeah, our freedom's a general term in liberty is that specific freedom, uh, free human person.
“Uh, that's, which, in that, but that means you have to think about your freedom connected to what it means to be human.”
What it means to be flourishing. What it means to be a good human being. Uh, what it means to self-govern well. Uh, and it, and it, and it brings a lot of the substance without necessarily destroying the idea of liberty itself. Um, not introducing Prince State to tell us these things. We're still free, uh, but we should think of our freedom as, what's the, what does a freedom appropriate for being human being, for being human?
Yeah, I love that idea of responsibility, social responsibility itself. Uh, so turning to, you know, thinking of, well, we know all the different characters with founding fathers. But is there one that you think is most misunderstood or most fascinating? Uh, it's good question. I mean, the, um, I think, um, my favorite founders is George Washington.
I've done another work on Washington. I think he's the fascinating figure. I agree with you. Uh, uh, mainly because, and this will be a more general concept.
“All right, I suppose that goes to why I think a lot of the founders are misunderstood.”
Uh, we think of the founding, the founders is a bunch of intellectual. Uh, they wrote these things and thought these thoughts read these books. Uh, and we sometimes make the founding overly academic. Whereas I think the founders, uh, were statesmen. Uh, they're not political philosophers.
Uh, they were very learning and they read these things. Yes, they were informed by these ideas. Uh, the, or extremely intelligent political thinkers. But they were primarily statesmen. They were trying to do make these ideas come in life in, in the context of 18 pretty colonial era.
And the one who did that, uh, more than anybody else, I think is, is George Washington. He's underestimated as a thinker.
He's seen as sort of a figurehead, uh, revolutionary general.
“But, uh, I think it's important to realize the extent to which, uh, his leadership was, uh, to found a country based on these ideas.”
Uh, so I, I think, you know, it's hard to capture the, the American founding, unless you capture the, the dynamics of it, uh, the story of it, of the liveliness of it. Washington is best to do that. Oh, like, I think there's, you know, a lot of them, though, the continental congress is a body. It's debates going on.
I think John Adams is the best figures on, downplay. Yeah. Jefferson and his way is perky and odd in the set in the other, but it's clearly a brilliant, a beautiful writer. Uh, but I think the, you know, the general problem is that we think of the founders. Uh, again, think of George Washington up on Mount Rushmore.
We think of there was distant, affected, almost inhuman.
I, I think the best way to understand them is through reading their biographi...
Uh, but also understanding what they accomplished it did. And, uh, that really brings these ideas life in a way that they don't, by really, really reading the parchment. Uh, doc. That's great.
I, uh, I've always been fascinated by George Washington and think that he's probably the greatest American hero.
We got the most, the most consequential. But as I love to hear you talk about him. So, you know, you, you deal with young people. You're going to graduate students both say about you deal with young people all the time. But if you sat down with a high school student, what's one lesson about America's founding? You would want them to really understand.
Uh, that's good question.
I would, uh, begin my, my first premise would be kind of my previous concept, which is kind of capture the thing as, as a, uh, a political event.
Which means we look at their decisions as political decisions as the decisions of the states.
“Uh, but then I think, uh, a little bit of what we've been talking about, what's important about the American founding?”
What's the electricity the American founding? Uh, and I think it really does go back to the, uh, that moment in time, which is not really moment in time. It really transcends time. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a universal, but it's brought into being in the context of the founding, uh, in which, uh, this idea, which self is thousands of years old that, you know, about what it means to be a human being a human person. Uh, the, the Greek and Roman concept of the, the Christian concept of, uh, self rule and that's natural law, uh, understanding of what human being is.
Well, that was brought to life in the context of the declaration, and so it's the, it's that nugget. Well, the seed, uh, and I, I would want to make them just help them to see that, however I could. You know, so much of the dynamism, uh, the inventiveness, the entrepreneurship, all these great, uh, characteristics of America, uh, both over time and, and today.
“Uh, the reason why people come to this country in blocks, uh, is because of those ideas, and I, I think that it's those ideas in the declaration.”
Um, I think, I think, you know, I want a high school student to know that. Uh, the details, the particulars, uh, the controversies, histories and perfect, it's messy. Yes, we can learn all that too, but get the right thing, get the, get the, get the, get the, the, the story, right, and it's fundamental. Uh, then we can work out, uh, the, the rest. Well, no better time than now, right? Lead, you know, it's, we, lead absolutely.
You know, independent stay 250th anniversary of America, our, our company's been celebrating it this whole year. We'll keep doing it. Right. Just been a wonderful, just even personal experience for me to kind of dwell on the founding principles and shrine of the declaration, you know, and kind of learn more about them. Talk, I get to talk to guests like you, you, you might be one of the most learned of that on this, and so this is fascinating for me. We, we've been talking about the concepts, you know, that that are contained in there, and a lot of times we read them, but we haven't internalized them and like really think about them.
And then really think about how they apply or should apply to our current society government culture. Um, I think that we could, we do really well to capture some of that again, let it kind of take hold of, of, of our debate and how we think about, you know, what it means to be an American and, uh, really let it animate us. No, well, well, well, steady. Well, well said, I think that, you know, too often we think of, this is just merely history. And I think we don't quite capture the, the radicalness of it, as we were saying earlier, but also how it's still alive.
Uh, I mean, you know, we debate these things, uh, we argue about them. I mean, that itself is evidence that how important they are. You know, so much of our politics, our, our, our, our life, our culture turns on, uh, what the meaning of the declaration is. That we are, our politics still, you know, circles around that question. Um, are we living up to those principles? Uh, that tells us a lot right there. So, here we are this unique moment. I was in middle school in 1976, that, that shaped me for the rest of my life.
“That's what I wanted to study to do. Really. Um, I've been seeing unique moment. People remember this.”
So, it's a good moment to go back and learn some history, uh, rereads some great biographies, read, you know, read a few great books. Uh, about this, get the story, get, uh, learn the dynamics of it.
But then most importantly, uh, you'll relearn or, or discover perhaps the first time those great truths at the heart of the matter.
And realize that at this, at this key moment, right when they were going to war, they were literally about to be invaded.
Uh, and, uh, washers in New York waiting for the British to land troops.
At that very moment in the heat of it all, and here they wrote this doc, and here's what it says.
“That strikes me as a great story. That's the story I wanted to tell in my book.”
Here's the story. And then, because once you see the, the, the, that, uh, that story that dynamism, that sacrifice, uh, that seriousness, uh, these, these ideas take on so much more of powerful meaning. Uh, and you see why they have shaped our history ever since, why people have sacrificed, why the people have died for this, uh, this country because of those principles.
That strikes me as a, a powerful reason to not a remember, uh, this anniversary.
But it's perfectly honest to, to love this country. It's, it's worth loving because of these principles. Amen. Very well said.
“Well, Dr. Spolly, I thank you for joining us. Did you say you have a book out?”
Yeah, would you like to tell anybody they, they like what you, uh, yeah, it's fine.
It's called, uh, the making of the American mind, the story of our declaration of independence. Uh, and I wrote it, uh, in the last year, uh, so it would be out this year for the anniversary and tells the story of the declaration. I was reading the meaning of the terms, the words, a lot of things we're talking about here. Uh, because I wanted to merit, we learned that story and, and followed love with their, and all over their country again. It's a great country because of these things, and we, this is the right time to go back and learn it and do.
So yes, making of the American mind. Great. Well, hopefully folks go check it out. Keep diving deep on this. About our principles, our founding document, uh, so we can be better and better. So just, you know, Dr. Spolly, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Folks, if you like this episode, we'll like to say connected with the podcast.
Be sure to like and subscribe to our channel as well as following us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
“Always remember, liberty and freedom aren't easily taken away. Please don't take them for granted.”
Go out there and defend freedom. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you for listening to American Potential. You may listen to more stories from Americans working every day to expand freedom and opportunity in their communities by visiting AmericanPotential.com.
