Fighting for Fair Pay: Dana Hollifleld’s Battle Against Healthcare Monopolies

Are you focused on Con-Repeal?

Or are there certain things the local level you're looking to do? - I'm focused on Con-Repeal. I'm also focused on getting law enforcement for these open records.

“I think it's so important for us to be able to access the records.”

It should not take me as a citizen. And, you know, thousands of dollars, possibly tens of thousands of dollars. Because I'm sure they can afford to bury somebody in paperwork to try to just save behind the curtain of the hospital that our community owns. Our board that is appointed by our city council that owns and governs at a hospital.

We should be able to ask those questions and we should be able to get those answers. This is the media care at all about that aspect of it because it seems to be something the media generally comes down on the side of the transparency.

- Americans are capable of achieving extraordinary things when they have the freedom

and opportunity to do so. This is American Potential. - Hey, we want to welcome to the American Potential podcast. I'm your host David from. You know, when you start a career, put in the time, you build up your skills, all

with the hopes of moving up and earning money. But what happens when you've done all that you're supposed to do, and you still get paid

“less because it's something the state has put in place?”

That's the issue today's guest ran into. But instead of accepting it, she pushed back. She got involved and started helping others do the same. I want to welcome you to the podcast. Dana Hallowfield, who has been a nurse for over 20 years.

Dana, thanks so much for joining us. - Thank you so much for having me and I really appreciate the opportunity to share my story. - Cool, yeah. Well, tell me starters, where are you coming to us from? - I'm coming from Huntsville, Alabama.

My husband's retired military. So that's where we ended up. He works at the, of course, Redstone. But he served over 20 years. And that's, and coming home for us, because our family's originally from Tescalusa.

Okay, so, and you guys, obviously moved around a lot. What other states did you live in?

“And were you a nurse, generally while you were making this move?”

- Yes, I was. I have to be honest when I finished my nursing, I thought I was going to have my plan laid before me and go to Emory and get my nurse midwifery, and that didn't happen when he went active duty.

So we first moved to Wyoming, and I will be honest, I had to look it up, because I didn't

know where it was. So, got there, had lived in Alabama all my life. So that was quite a shock to have snow in June, and then we came down to Tennessee. We went to Florida, we went to Virginia, Massachusetts, Indiana, back to Florida, back up to Virginia, and now back to Alabama.

Wow. And I worked as a fair, every pair. - Yeah, so I feel like that probably gives you a really interesting perspective, and I'd like to come back to that. But first I got, you know, just tell us why you decided to get into nursing, and like, then

maybe what area is you worked? - Well, I started out in an emergency room, and while I was in school, and I just had a strong desire to help people to, I feel like I'm a problem-solver, I like to find resources for folks, especially maternal child, seems to be my area that I like to work in. I love helping families, and just knowing that you're helping people to find the resources

they need and to be healthier and stronger and better, it's just what makes me happy. - That's great, well, they've seen everyone work a day in your life, right? If you're doing something that you love. - Yeah, I love working with my patients, that just makes my day. - That's fabulous.

- Yeah, I hope, I have more people consider that. I mean, it really is such an important part, you know. I get to host podcasts and talk to them, she and people like you, for a good part of my job, so it makes me pretty happy. So you moved around a lot of work in a lot of different hospitals, I mean, can you guess

how many hospitals you've worked in, as a nurse? - Well, let's see, these H, UMass Baptists, Huntsville Crestwood, that one. Probably about eight or nine if I'm thinking, right? - So, what, you know, we need to think about all the different states and the hospitals that you've worked in, you know, how does your current situation compare, or maybe even

more generally, when you see how things are regulated or run, what, what is good look like and what is less and optimal or bad look like?

a lot of different options, we had a lot of different facilities that we could go to and different doctor's groups that we could choose from and then when I came to Huntsville, I found that there's a monopoly they own everything, even doctor's offices. So you don't, your choice is very limited and that choice is in your healthcare, that choice is in where to work, the specialists that you're able to see, it really limits a lot of

different things. - Do you found that the availability of options is probably one of the best factors to better care or just the better experience?

“- Right, and I think better outcomes, because when you have a monopoly, there's less competition.”

So, ironically, the outcomes are not as well here as were other areas that I've lived in. So, in past episodes, we've talked a lot about certificate of need laws, where the government can basically, or do a board can basically say whether or not certain healthcare facilities can be set up.

The basic limit competition amongst the different companies, which ends up creating monopolies in a lot of places.

And we've always focused on it from the patient standpoint, getting better outcomes, having

choices, having competition. But it also impacts nurses, can you tell us about that a little? - Oh, it impacts anybody working in healthcare, absolutely. It stagnates wages, they can suppress wages, because there's no competition. It limits your ability to go anywhere else if you find that your ethics and your goals aren't

“matching that organization, where are you going to go?”

I'd have to travel out of state, or to Birmingham, to work for another, down, as far as call them in Birmingham, to work for another. - Yeah, I guess typical monopolistic kind of activity, where the market's not a real market, because people aren't going to be allowed to compete. - Right.

- So, what's the real-world impact where you're at in terms of-- - Well, when I got here, so for example, when my husband found out he was transferring here, I was actually coming from Auburn, Obelica, and Montgomery, which are in Alabama. And when I started discussing my wages, it was about 25% less than what I was making already in Alabama, if that gives you any idea.

So you're talking about some of the lowest paid healthcare workers in the entire U.S. And I was like, how is this possible? What is going on? This is supposed to be Huntsville, Alabama, this is supposed to be growing. We have scientists, we have engineers, I would have thought we would be, you know, top of the

market. - Right. - And so I started doing some investigating, and I found out that the hospital is actually owned by the healthcare authority board of the city of Huntsville, which is a government board.

So I started going to the meetings and encouraging others to go to the meetings.

And by December, we had enough people in that room asking questions that for the first

time in years, they got $3 an hour races. And so I ended up going to, at the time, the only other hospital, which was crestwood in Huntsville. It was not owned by Huntsville Hospital, but they acquired it as of last month. So yes, so no more options. And a lot of the folks that went to crestwood went there because they didn't, they had

worked for Huntsville, or they didn't want to work for Huntsville Hospital because they wanted to have a choice and a little bit higher pay to be honest.

“- So what would, so this is a basic government-owned hospital, right?”

- Correct. And we started asking questions about, for example, the CEO's salary should be open records. And according to the state law, it is, but in the state of Alabama, there's no law enforcement that I found out for open records. So I'd have to take them to court to get that information.

And, you know, it kind of goes with the con laws.

It's like they use these loopholes and these things to basically have control and to limit

the community. I'd mean I could go on and on about all the different things that it limits. Right now, one of the things that I was looking at, we don't have, well, we have birthing centers in the state of Alabama, but only two. And they're wanting to put them under hospitals and require them to go to these con laws.

And so basically we have some of the worst maternal child outcomes.

We need these birthing centers. We need this option in our rural community and so these con laws are limiting that. And I feel like that's part of the issue. It's like a lot of different pieces that have created this circumstance that we find ourselves in.

So, you got active, start going to the meetings, get other people to go to the meetings too.

“How have you, what kind of action have you seen as a result of that?”

Well, we got the $3 an hour raises and that actually carried over to Crestwood and I believe

the rehab centers I ended up having to raise their wages, which lifted the whole community.

And so I was very happy that that worked out, especially for a lot of folks that were really having a hard time making ends meet. And we've talked a lot about, should you have a good of need or con laws? Have you been involved in a movement to try to build, stay well? I have.

I have been talking to my state leaders. I know Dr. Larry Stets has been trying to repeal some of those, especially for the rural communities to at least make it easier for us to get health care in those areas.

“When you look at the con laws, and I believe there's 47 requirements that they have on”

the ones here, it's just as long, it's complicated, it's bureaucratic. And you just have to wonder, why would anybody want to come here and go through all of that? And then you've got the larger hospital monopolies that use it to basically restrict who can come in and restrict their competition, because they have a say in that process. Yeah, I mean I should be seeing the certificate of need laws all across the country, and

there have been some wins in different states where we've got them repealed. They've been pretty active in a lot of those, but it's hard because those hospitals, the

huge hospitals, hospitals, associations are sometimes something that was powerful for the

entities in the state, I mean they carry a lot of weight, they do, yeah, and one of the things that I've tried to do is talk to different groups. I'm a nurse, so I'm trying to help nurses to understand how repeal would be helpful. I'm trying to talk to patients and help them understand that if we can repeal this, it's going to open up options for your care and hopefully help to improve those outcomes talking

to some of the physician groups, nurse practitioner groups. I think it's going to take a united group to go up against that giant so it's, so to speak. We talk about how there have been our outcomes when we have more competition. We don't have specific need laws, what are some practical ways that you think if they're weren't common laws, that we might see better outcomes because of more competition?

I think we would have more outpatient facilities, like I said, the resources perhaps with the birthing centers, I think we would see more standalone facilities to do testing and things like that so that people don't have to wait so long and they don't have to wait. Sometimes be admitted to the hospital unnecessarily because any time you can get back home,

I feel like most of the time people do better at home than they do in a hospital. Well, I know this is your era of expertise, but you know, talking about birth and just maternal health, I happen to be the father of a lot of kids, I've had a lot of kids and I'm very familiar with birth and we chose a number of different options, but that was the point that there was options. There was a lot of ways that things that we could decide to do.

“I think that that's so important to better outcomes because you can make it fit in this”

case, what's right for that woman? Is that possible? It's going to make her the most comfortable, put her in the best situation because I think how comfortable a woman is probably goes a long way to how successful birth

Now, yeah, absolutely, we want to decrease stress.

We do not want to increase stress. We want that person to feel comfortable.

“That is one of the hardest things we ever do and so I think giving people choices and having”

options is so important and for them to feel like they have a sense of control. Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about the huntsville, I mean, you got kind of a mega hospital there, right? An entity, what's it been like to deal with them?

Because when it is them and I believe they don't really have to deal in customer service. What's it been like to deal with them and like, what are some of the things you've found out about it? Well, I've had people come and tell me stories and then, you know, just personally, I mean, I found that there's these fees and I'm still trying to figure out what some of

those fees are that they kind of tack on. So I don't think there's as much transparency. I don't feel like there's as much oversight and accountability to be honest. Crest would, since it was a public, I mean, a private on hospital traded on the SEC. There was more transparency because of the SEC rules and regulations than with this nonprofit

public on hospital. Yeah.

I had close to half a billion dollars, half a billion dollars to purchase Crest would

hospital and, you know, we, I think about the ceiling that was leaking when I worked at hence, for a hospital, mother baby and I'm like, how is it, we can pay half close to half a billion dollars, but we can't fix the leak and the ceiling. Yeah, point, so what, what do things to future here? Are you focused on con repeal, or are there things at the local level that you're looking

to do? I'm, I'm focused on con repeal, I'm also focused on getting law enforcement for these open records.

“I think it's so important for us to be able to access the records.”

It should not take me as a citizen and, you know, thousands of dollars, possibly tens of thousands of dollars because I'm sure they can afford to bury somebody in paperwork to try to just see behind the curtain of the hospital that our community owns, our board that is appointed by our city council that owns and governs at a hospital. We should be able to ask those questions and we should be able to get those answers.

Does the media care at all about that aspect of it because it seems to be something that the media generally comes down on the side of transparency? Well, they did do, I do have a national story that was done and I have been, you know, steadily, every opportunity trying to get that story out there and slowly, but surely, I feel like it is, as a matter of fact, Dr. DS that's running for the federal Senate

seat has really brought to light a lot of these issues as well. That's great. Mm-hmm. So I think just a lot of different people bringing it forward and it appears to be a lot

of health care folks that are basically speaking out, but part of the problem too is that

folks are afraid, these hospital monopolies can blacklist you and you're talking about being able to feed your family and take care of your family. I completely understand if you're too afraid to speak up. Yeah, what made you kind of initially go out there and speak up? I mean, this risk to you, right?

Where is there is, there is. I felt like I was in a position and I hope it doesn't sound the wrong way, but I mean, I feel like I could have forward to speak up, you know, I could take that hit and speak up for other people.

“So that's what I did and so far, so good.”

I've been able to get a few things changed and I'm still steadily working at it every day. I wake up and say, okay, what are we going to do today? Yeah. Well, good luck on the shipping of need repeal, hopefully I guess targeting that for the next legislative session.

I am. I actually have been trying to get in touch with my state leaders, like I said, Dr. Larry Stutz and I'm trying to get in touch with, I believe it's Senator April Weaver. She's a nurse, just trying to reach out to those folks that I feel like will understand the need to repeal this and it's also, as I was doing a little bit of research, is my understanding

that with the the rural health care or transformation program with CMS, it's incentivized

that care because it take, I mean, these conlaws can vary things for years and we need

these resources right now.

“We don't need to be buried in bureaucracy, you know, taking years when the house is burning”

down right now. Yeah, well, then I wish you the best, I give you a lot of, a lot of a lot of, a lot of it's to for stepping up being courageous, kind of speaking out when maybe some of your colleagues and feel like they were able to do that and and stay an after it because they do try to, you know, with a lack of transparency, we see in local government all the time.

They try to just wait you out and it's really frustrating if you're resilient and you're

in a rest of the, sometimes you, you know, they got to, because you got, you got the lawn

on your side. Yeah. And just be in persistent and collide, I try to, you know, every, at chance that I get to talk to my state leaders to thank them, because I know that is a very difficult job. I mean, serving, you're the public, but I do want them to understand how important

this is and the opportunities that could be there if we repealed these laws, I was looking at the information in Florida and they've actually had a boom since they, you know, repealed their con laws in, you know, expansion of different health care entities and businesses.

“So I feel like it could definitely be a positive, I think the data shows that it could”

be a positive if we do this. Well, I appreciate you leaving the way. It's great. Thank you. I appreciate your time.

And thank you for the, the interview, I appreciate you listening to us. Well, we love to feature people who are out there just regular folks doing the right thing and trying to make a big difference. I mean, if you're one of the impetus is behind, you know, should we need repeal in Alabama? That's a pretty great thing to achieve in your lifetime.

So. Yeah. Yeah.

They're always like, Mom, what are you up to?

Where are you doing? I hope one day they'll appreciate what I've done. That's awesome. Well, and hopefully there's a lot better, you know, there's a lot of moms and kids who have a lot better outcomes, kids who get to live and live a great life and mom's same

things because because you fought this fight. Yeah. That's what I tell my kids. I said, you know, sometimes we have to be the one to speak up. We've got to be the one to stand there and, you know, just do what we've got to do.

That's great. Well, thanks for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you. If you like this episode, we'll like to stay connected with the podcast.

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“And all these remember, liberty and freedom are easily taken to granted.”

Don't take them to granted. Go out there and defend freedom with it. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you for listening to American Potential. You may listen to more stories from Americans working every day to expand freedom and opportunity

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