4. Emma Caldwell

Bewareboot contains references to sexual violence and murder, including in this episode "Child's Sexual Abuse",

“which some listeners might find up setting.”

"You think of the night that the AMA rent messin' at 8.25. I was pretty miserable, I was bleeped. That's the area where they've been fetched by that. You know, there's no street lighten, probably unlikely if you pass all the cars and the road at that time and I. I mean, it's trying to, almost put yourself in their possession thinking, where the hell am I?" I'll tell you where we are, but on the way to Lainfield woods about 40 miles outside of Glasgow,

the police would emacole where was found strangled and discarded in a ditch off the side of the track more than 20 years ago. We're taking the same route that Ian Parker did, an IT picked Emma called well-up in Glasgow City Centre and drove her to the middle of nowhere, an IT killed her in cold blood.

“Join us while we retrace Emma called well's final moments.”

He wanted to exit, and he wanted to get us to be a total naked, and that was how Emma called her.

It was found, it's always like Feiti, she has, you can all imagine that they must have been terrifying.

To find out more about how a violent sex offender would lure her into the back of his van, drive to this remote spot and murder her, how Parker would be overlooked by senior police for decades, who ignored the pleas of dedicated detectives. He had been provided all in his behalf, but the vibes he was given me at the time I thought, this was okay, this was okay. His appetite for violence was so well-known to Glasgow, many even believe his name would have appeared

and then owe missing the wear book. One of the officers in particular, he thinks that Ian Parker's name would be in that book.

“But I think it would be as well, and there'd be a couple of things in that book.”

He's just coming back. Emma's death gathered massive media attention, and became one of Scotland's most high profile unsolved murders, but who was the girl behind the headlines? "She's such a soft spread out of it, she's been now on my flight, she's real a bit net." "How did she meet such a terrible end, and why did the authorities fail her for so long?"

"All of this to come, an episode four of BeWearBook." "He that clear knowledge of the route, he didn't deviate at all, and I remember taking a street too." "Continue street." "What we knew by the end to be the depotation state where Emma's body was found?" "There's just nothing around here, I'm looking out, it's fields, some sheep, the odd houses you see."

"It's quite an alabra, it's quite an alabra." "Think you do to bring somebody all the way from one's world around here." "It's obvious that he would have felt safe in an knowledge that nobody would ever find them down here." "Whether the garals, but the prostitutes, he was probably an excuse to come for a zone." "That was obviously a thrill, we'd like them all the way down here."

"You look at the route we've taken, there was probably plenty of places you could have turned off, half a distance, but yeah it chose to come down here. It must have felt safe." Packer might have felt safe, but I have to say I feel quite nervous driving along the remote route. There's quite a strange atmosphere, and I'm just trying to concentrate on not taking a wrong

turn down one of the leafy tracks. The man we're with, who you hear speaking to collect there as Devi Bar.

He's a retired detective who worked on Emma's case in 2005, taking us back to when he first

visited this remote location many years ago, not knowing he was there with a murderer.

"I thought at that point, given the facts about five or six months after the route,

“it's not a good term that he said these garals don't be ever but Emma's body was fair, you know."”

"Is this bringing back any memories?" "Yes, it was, it's going to come on so far." "And the gate." "We went over a cattle crate there. Was that the one you were talking about?" "As a member of the mountain, they can't decide. They're sort of the same."

"There's a first time I'd ever been down here."

"Which was significant and there was always when we started to inquire the belief that we'll get there at some point."

"Something will bring us down here." "And one behold, who brought us down here was the impact of the first time." "You know, I would never have known how to get here." "I'd be not directed as to this location." "And I've only been by one since, they're waiting for the quieted that got back at the court."

"Just to point out really that actually." "Sureness that it takes, they get all's in and to the trees." "But I mean, you just just look about here."

"I'm going to, I've been allowed to be down here on the dark."

"It's an intimidating place, even on a rainy autumn day." "And you definitely couldn't find this area unless you'd actually been here before physically."

“"With that distinctive cattle great noise, still proving an important marker even now."”

"You're not used to walk, but I have a small town." "Can I eat those trees?" "It's more overgrown than other men, but..." "It's from all enough, had you been inside the car or van or whatever he was in?" "To then come out in the pitch black and now you start to walk."

"What would be going through your head?" "I don't remember if the gate was locked." "But then I'd like to do what they get all around the side of the gate." "Because it's quite a big padlock on there, isn't it?" "Because I'm pretty sure that the ram was found up here in the way."

"It's raining quite heavily at this point, as you can probably hear." "We're walking towards where Emma's body was found all those years ago." "It's dark, eerie, isolated, thick moss and undergrowth, quieting the sound of her footsteps, only the soft snapping of broken twigs breaking the silence." "Nobody else around from miles, nobody to hear Emma's cries for help."

"The EVs only been here twice before, ones with a team of police and ones with the impactor."

"Never with anyone from the media."

"But actually, I've been here before too, when I covered Emma's murder trial." "When the press joined the jury on a supervised visit to this isolated spot." "I mean, it's pitch black and then you'll just know." "Yeah." "And it's really the way." "When the press and the jury in the trial came down here."

"The took us right into those routes and they put markings on several markings." "Each jury member was allowed to circle the ditch and where she was found." "A few times, and the press were allowed to observe from a certain distance back." "Lay." "Yeah, this is it." "Yep. You're still in the air." "Sobering isn't it?" "You know, just to think about being in this location and Emma's final moment here."

“"I think it was actually that sad when you think that she'll leave here for the best part of the month."”

"Which, again, shows you how it's occluded the serious." "You know, I took her away there for a month." "Yeah." "That would stop anyone in their tracks." "The fact that Emma lay there for the best part of a month without being discovered."

"And during all that time, her family still lived in hope she would appear." "But of course, she wouldn't." Emma grew up in airskin, around half an hour from Glasgow City Center.

and big sister Karen. Emma was a high-achiever at school and did well in her exams.

“She also loved horses. "But the family was walked by grief in 1998 when Karen became ill”

and died. This tragedy would see Emma's life change course taking her down a much darker path, one that would lead her into her own addiction and eventually the path of the impact her." "But she remained quiet and came throughout all of this heartache. A girl that Anne Mackelbeen, who ran the salt and light charity, would eventually get to know pretty well." "She's such a soft, spread out a bit her. She shouldn't have had my flight. She'd be a little bit

near. And I remember being Emma came to see me the very first time I go in over and she was

really upset and I took her in the church. And she just everything just confledant about what had happened to her sister and how her a... how she felt about this sort of life that she was dealing with and that life was in the life that she had been brought up to love. She was still so close with her

“parents as well. It wasn't she that I think they came to find out. I became every week, they came”

and they go at her McDonald's when the drops had at the hostel and her clothes and mommy used the air washing and that for the... but I remember when I was standing with her and mom turned up and she should be skating the clothes and all that but they can't. And Emma says, "Mom, this is Anne. I went in to do shit. Anne's going to try and get me an airy cup. And I could just tell Emma's mom, it looked as though here we go again to get her going to help her."

But we did try but she just was nerdy, she just was nerdy, just was nerdy right time for her. There are many more confronting things about this case she'll soon come to learn.

“More about Packer, violent, deceitful and manipulative, guilty of several vicious attacks on vulnerable”

women, guilty of murder, but perhaps most confronting of all that he's openly admitted to taking several prostitutes to this location, not just Emma. And that he's told police about this, he told Davy, during the initial investigation in the first few months following Emma's death, yet he would go on to live freely and fulfil view of the authorities for 19 long years. When you came down here with Packer and in that moment did you think, right, this is the man,

this is it, we've got him. I was told he was Davy, going to be an accused.

Never, so even when he tells me the Emma court, he had Emma called her down here.

I contacted him, I said, "You're that nice, and he's home for him to be told, I've read the told you Davy, it doesn't matter what he tells you, he'll never be in a fuse." He could sense that. When you think, "I've got, I've got this statement off somebody. You've got to have them trust you. You've no done this, don't worry about that." But what I do know was the dynamics changed

that the 100% because I did not expect him to tell me that he brought Emma called her down here.

I knew he would basically admit to bring another girl down here, because we had them telling us,

"But how much like telling me," you know, that's like, "Oh, wait a minute, this is. How can he have brought Emma called her down here?" No, that's the area that it back his hand and not the responsible. Take us back to that moment where he did tell you that he brought Emma here. Can you sum up your feelings?

Well, I wasn't expecting that, um, as far as I'm concerned, at that point, his status should have changed from a witness to a suspect. Is it meant to bring in a course that you, you're meant to bring in Emma called real

You can hear David becoming emotional there, the toll Emma's murder and the investigation has had on so many people is really quite striking. The brutal way she was killed, the fact her naked dead body lay abandoned in a ditch for so long were her loved ones frantically looked for her. And the fact her killer was interviewed by police several times in the weeks that followed,

“but not treated as a suspect. How did he get away with it for so long?”

Let's go back then to before David's involvement in the case. To the weeks and months,

right after Emma's murder in 2005, to the first officer to speak to Packer as part of this

investigation, retired to take the constable Stuart Hall. She was talking about this guy who had raped Emma behind a bellboard and Glasgow. She was the ill-whethered boyfriend. After, when Emma came out from behind, the bellboard distressed. She showed it over to the squirrel. He just raped me and the squirrels boyfriend threw a bottle with the guy. He then got an Irvan and drove away.

Stuart's telling us there about some of the first inquiries he made on the Emma called

“Willmurgeon investigation. He'd been speaking to a girl who knew Emma, who'd witnessed her being”

attacked by a client in the months before her death, a man who drove a distinctive vehicle.

The van had leathery on his side. She couldn't remember what it's said she thought to me it'd been a pint of a van. Colorful, wet of on his side. A van that stood out then, one that might draw the attention of anyone driving around Glasgow's red light district, known as the drag at night. Even the officers can vacing the idea of Emma's last known way about. Well, combined to it, it can headward police office and we received information

that a guy in Iván had been stopped upon the bars next to the battle on bullroom, which is close to Glasgow Green, which is with a lot of the girls' work.

And this van had writing on the side. And the guy was a hostile, a hostile and his attitude towards

“prostitutes. I think of just the routine stop check, the false cows in that area.”

So, I requested that we get the action to speak to this guy because it may well have been the same van. So, a violent attack on Emma in the months before her death by a man who drove away in a distinct van. I know a similar description of a van driving about the area Emma worked in the days after her body was found. But that's all it was, a similar van. It could just be coincidence or even mystique and identity. So, Stuart brought this man into the station just to have a chat as someone

who might be able to help the inquiries. Nothing more. But she ever get the feeling that something isn't quite right. You know, when you start to talk to people, if they're lying to you, or they're certain things that they do that can make you feel uneasy. And in Parker was all verbally friendly. He, you know, is Elizabeth, he'd known as for years. People use your name too much. Stuart, Stuart, Stuart, Stuart, and a manbell is ringing a room.

So, even at this early stage, something isn't adding up to Stuart. Parker's only in to give a routine statement as a witness. There's something off about him. Something that would grab the attention of an experienced officer. It's going to be an intuition. The police had just asked him to attend a police office. Detectors who he didn't know. The year this guy is wants to be friends. You know, if I was an innocent of a crime and the police had asked me to

attend a police station, I would be weary. You know, I'd be worried about what they were going to ask me, what they were going to say. We have been provided in his behalf, but the vibes he was given to me. At the time I thought, this is again. This is again. Anyway, we took his statement and he was allowed to go I knew at that point. Unfounded. There's it may have been, but I knew at that point. It was in Parker. There was a colleague coming down the stairs and he says, you know, well,

what would you think? Yeah, I said, yeah, it was 100%. I'm certain it's him. So I fed that information back into the incident room. The whole model and quiet is run from the incident room and that was how Parker in Parker became to be involved and him as modern

is tailing senior officers, he thinks he's guilty of him as murder. This inquiry is far from

“over. It will be a long, long time before Parker is even treated as a potential suspect. So how”

does it all go so wrong? Especially when witnesses are tailing police about Ian Parker that there's something about him, something that makes them uneasy. It hit a terrible dampness about him, a seven people are talking to Ian and the show I'd be about a suspect, but he didn't have one. Now, you're a suspect. He's seen it as it was his right to come and target whoever they wanted to target. But it was an identity in my bus. That's Anne Mackelven again, who was interviewed by police

during the investigation. She says Ian Parker used to try and get access to the girls. She

“was helping through the salt and light charity. The one that operated from a distinctive double”

decor bus in the city centre. What did Ian Parker see when he was looking for the girls? Did he

come in a few times looking for different girls? What was he like when he spoke to? Never spoke to me.

It was a big tear that people run about the bus. You know where to search and search, you know who is. And we used to my husband. Used to just go up and say him move. They did that well or the folk that we knew that we were. I'd be using the glasses, the glasses for getting some dunes up that turn it was awful. Anne said they did everything they could to try to get justice for Emma. We also had the police come out in the bus for 10 months and the took statements for all of the

girls. Police spoke to you at the time as well, is that right? I had the media coverage and the police. We did the best, we told them, we knew, we told them. We had to find some of the girls.

Anne first spoke with officers back when Emma's case was still a missing person's inquiry.

When as far as our loved ones knew, she might still turn up after being last spotted on the

“fifth of April 2005 before her body was found. And I remember that day when the reporters came”

in the hostel, I was stoning it side with the glasses, we did not know what had happened to her, and the reporter for the daily record she came and told us that Emma's body had been found. So we opened the church up and know the glasses building the church because they were on total shock. And you knew Emma? Oh, I knew Emma. I, Emma was in the hostel across the road for the church, but we initially started, so we did a drop in, we used the buses and a drop in during the

days, and the girls come over and head the tea and a... That's okay. It's really difficult to talk about it's not just that it's difficult, it's all kibber. When you go all over and you go back over and you think the kid maybe had done something stuff, but I don't think it would have prevented what happened to Emma. What was going to happen to Emma was going to happen to her regardless of what any videos could do, and momentarily, I mean, my heart broke for them. They better

looking for her than nightly, constantly getting rid of looking for her, and it was just awful, it was a horrible time in the last days for real with frightened. You can really feel the emotion from Anne as we chant in her cozy, holy living room. She takes a minute to recover herself afterwards, so obviously a difficult memory for her to recall. The moment she realized Emma wasn't coming back. But Anne had noticed about a change in her over the past few

months before her death. She became gone and withdrawn. You could tell that she had been brought up in a loving family, and that she just got up in her drugs and drank in prostitution, and I could see her

Emma had also stopped coming to the bus for support and stopped reaching out to those around her.

“We know now that he raped Emma before he took her out to the woods that night.”

Yeah, did she ever mention what happened to me? No, see, but that time Emma was very much and she was, I thought I shouted a few times and she'd dangied me. She just did me. Such was the drugs and the effect of the drugs and the effect of having it work to get the money, to feed the drugs that Emma was totally focused on that at the very end. She was she looked very thin as well at that point, but touched on by the photos. She was dying. But last she was dying. They were all dying.

If they didn't get the help, they needed. Emma was so weak by this point. She was losing lots of weight

and isolating herself from those around her and used a distinctive glass waging phrase there.

“Dinging. When you dingy someone, you ignore them. Keep walking and don't react to anything they're”

saying. Block everything out. And this also feels like what senior police officers are doing at this point, blocking out the evidence mounting against the impact her. And was among several people who'd spotted him with Emma in the weeks and months before her death. And among the many who'd seen his scary side when he was stalking the boss she was running as a drop-in center threatening the women on board. Women working the drug were also picking him

out of photos to detire detective Stuart Hall who worked on the case. One even telling him Parker had actually raped Emma before. Behind a billboard in the east end of Glasgow. Surely it was just a matter of time before he would be treated as a suspect. Everyone was on board, including the deputy senior investigating officer in the colleagues at the time were all interested. People were interested in my updates and the colleagues' updates.

The daily briefings was happening in my packer now. We had them in three times. It wasn't until later on that I was taken into the bosses room and superintendents room where the acting detective inspector put it to me and stopped at me. I have to do no more work on Parker. No further work on them. Take no more statements from him. Don't try and find any evidence against him. Don't speak to any more girls regarding the name Parker, you're off Parker. So that was a blow because until that point,

you know, golden boy, I had Parker. He was the guy. Back came as a bit of a shock to Stuart

“then and I think that's putting it mildly. Parker was no longer to be treated as a suspect,”

but why? Well it turns out Stuart had been left in the dark about a big change in approach. There was stuff going on in the background that the original inquiry didn't know about. We thought someone in our inquiry was being investigated. We knew something was a mess. The work had dried up. There was no actions coming out, but it turns out another separate operation. Focusing solely on four Turkish individuals in the Turkish cafe that was on going. So they had

prioritized that so the initial inquiry had kind of not totally ground to hold, but it's certainly quietened. So that's a bit of a 180. Suddenly Stuart was told not to pursue any more lines of inquiry around in Parker, but where did this come from? Well as we hear there, the Emma Coldwell murdered inquiry had actually been split into two parallel, but completely different operations unknown to most of the officers involved. The intelligence-led operation drill was

analyzing allegations relating to Ian Parker, but the second we've just heard about from Stuart

there, Operation Guard was something else entirely. It focused on a group of Turkish men. One of whom had called Emma on the night she disappeared. That call had been made near a Turkish cafe in Glasgow City Center. A place where men would drink and gamble. A place where several women said they'd been raped. It's also been reported MSD NE was even found on a quilt in there, all of which crime reporter Norman Solvester says made a convincing argument to pursue this angle. What we knew

had there were men, one of them had taxed Emma Coldwell, the nation disappeared. It was the last

“person known to have contact. We knew Emma Coldwell, another girl's which a community sent to”

in Glasgow, but where they were used by men there for men there, who were subsequently charged with a mother. It seemed quite a compelling case at the time. Obviously, we're hoping to know why the investment officers chose to ignore the impact or to the detriment of the investigation. We don't know, but maybe it's easy to be wise after the event. Surveillance was even set up at the cafe, capturing women being brought in under the shutters after closing time.

Conversations were taped by officers keeping a close watch nearby. And Stuart was also reassigned

at a grilling task trying to link them up to the group of men. I was still in the case, myself,

“my colleague had been given all our duties. The main one was scraping fat and kebab meat of the”

floor of an empty kebab factory, looking for trace evidence. It had come up with a stereo. There was a staging post somewhere the body could have been put after she had been muddled. And there was a kebab factory in Stuart Street. And our job must have been for a month anyway, was to go and put on a paper so put on a masking gloves and scrape fat and lamb meat in whatever debris of the floor of walkin, freezer and carpet substals and bags of fat bags of rubbish, which we had to reduce

under here. And then it got sifted and then we took what was remaining up to the University who we sat for a couple months, looking at ant legs and insect thoraxes and wing casings and

“everything else that goes into a kebab through microscopes. I don't know, I can look upon it”

as a punishment, you know, get him out of the way. How do you think that experience shaped here as a person kind of going forward from there? I lost all respect for my supervisors and the police lost respect for the police. I expected more from the police. I gave up in my career. I was in a place but I didn't want to be in a place because I saw a different side to the police, like I said

that I had never had a complaint against me. I was always trying to do my best and this to me,

a lamb bills are ringing, I'm thinking, this is this is corruption. I hope why aren't they wasn't it to me? They can't have something that's that good that overshadows proof that I've found. All of this was indeed for nothing. While foremen were arrested in 2007, the case around them soon collapsed. The quality of evidence gathered in the thousands of hours of surveillance at the cost of millions of pounds was called into question, not least because much of the early

translations were carried out by an officer who despite being of Turkish descent had no qualification in translation. He wasn't trained in using the equipment either and claimed later he'd been put under immense pressure during the process. So while there might have been a strong case for looking into these men initially, the decision to keep pursuing this operation at all costs seems much less convincing. At the same time as all of this, another officer, someone you've already

heard from in this podcast was still working away on the other operation. The one focused on initial inquiries including Ian Parker. Everything I had done, everything I had learned and obtained was passed on to Macauly DC Bar and his task was to eliminate Ian Parker from the inquiry. However, he found himself in the same position. He was unable to eliminate Parker because he also interviewed him and like me, Parker was a little more and more with each interview. All of which

then takes his back to these woods with Davey, what Emma's body was found. He tells us, "Well, Stuart was working on a difficult and degrading task at the Kibbad factory. He was facing frustrations of his own with the senior officers in charge of operation grale." Because I've already felt the same. I'm talking about people and then sitting at room, savages and spectres. People would then end the job all along on me. Then get it. But we weren't getting told. Everything

But I could you know, every day in life and that incident removed the Kibbad out there.

“How can it not be happening? You know, and it got to this stage where I think, well, I know one of them,”

the tape doesn't personally get basically threatened. As in, if you carry on, being Parker didn't send back to the vision, which is something that's quite embarrassing as if you take the view of what you're in. And it's quite out with your own division. I mean, we were powerless to end, we just got in my work. The daily pathetic thing is that other people suffered, other girls were safe or assaulted. You know, and the years that he's been free, you know, which is unacceptable, other people are

should be ashamed of the directions, you know, for what they did. So as Davie says, well, mostly every officer believed Parker should be treated as a suspect in Emma's murder. It didn't make any difference. Much to his disappointment, they didn't even know anything about the other surveillance operation running alongside theirs. They were also under pressure to toe the line from one person in particular. I can't speak forever, do they? I'm pretty sure

if you gather every single officer who went to an operation in Grail, there was only one person that didn't think in Parker was responsible. And that was the essay, who was getting directions from elsewhere. You know, we were told, it's not him who's gone to that. You know,

“later on, in my service, I think a good equation, things a lot more. I wouldn't be there any”

difference. Do you think it would even have made a difference if he had confessed? I don't really know. T-bones with it. We were told, and I don't know, we were under no

loosing. He would never have been accused in that case. But the night we had him and he had met

Ethan Neymar down here, still doesn't say quite lately, because in my opinion, it would probably only opportunity. Looking back now, over covering any of our bologns, we'd never have ever covered, because he might have done that. We know that now. So he must have known what happened to her bologns, because she'd obviously stripped off Neymar's naked in the van. She requested, as he would be the girl, so she'd have moved by her phone, she'd have other bologns.

And so that rose, at this point, it would never have had opportunity to find those items, because in fact, it was on a person that had known clearly. But as I said, I mean, there was

never treated her suspect, so I didn't want to follow on that. Unfortunately.

The SIO as Davie talks about their stands for Senior Investigating Officer. In this case, that was Detective Superintendant Willie Johnston. But one thing we have to tell you now is that the Scottish Government's order to judge led review into the original investigation of Emma Cole Will's murder. It was carried out by Strath Clay Police under the direction of the Crown Office. So we can't say too much more about Willie Johnston or any of the other senior officers

from that time for now. Apart from that, he's welcomed the inquiry and the chance to tell his story there, which Davie says leaves many questions on answered. I would love to speak quite fairly about why it happened, but I don't think that would be appropriate. Certain people got it wrong.

Probably initially, but we've never been doing the right thing, but certainly not towards the end.

“And I think it just snowballed out of control. And you know, the police,”

one thing on the police is people try to protect themselves. Okay, and that applies more to senior officers and people get it wrong. And it is worth remembering, it wasn't just the police officers who suffered. Do you think that the murders were taken seriously? Do you think they were not at the gun? No, no, it began. No. I don't. Can you talk us through that? What was your experience of

and gained five statements of the years. Just a flat. Just take your time. Again, we really appreciate

“even talking to us about this. And I think it's, these are just words you've left it.”

I can't imagine what that was like. Did you ever get any updates from the places to the progress of these investigations? Sometimes, sometimes the, there was a couple of policemen that were really

for us, you could tell that they've antiped the soul. You could tell the, but they never

didn't look at it. But again, it solved. It beggars belief that police knew Parker had repeatedly paid Emma for sex that witnesses had even told them he'd raped her behind a billboard in the months before her death. He spoke with police at total of six times between 2005 and 2007, admitting to more and more each time. Eventually, even taking police to the exact location of Emma's murder and confessing to having been there with her, but even though two serving detectives

had told the same senior officer, Willie Johnson, they felt Parker should be treated as a suspect, none of this made any difference. Parker remained free to attack more women.

"I've never got out of the gate. It was like it picked him out. There's one event he's the one

we need to shoot him up at us just to find him to do it. That's good." The voice you hear there is one of Ian Parker's other victims. Someone he used to pick up off the street for sex, up to three times a week, who he also brutally assaulted. Someone who's finally agreed to speak with us on the record after months of conversations. "I must have been scared not going back to that van. I must have been out using, but I don't know why."

"Just like an endspane." "Just kept seeing the van or the scene on it. But the boy became the same German man, but I was just like ten years ago. No, but there was a scene on it. Then

“I found out it works for the scene coming. It makes sense." "You must have just always had that”

vague from me." "I just, I don't know if it's a great death case." "I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to be into just the thoughts and I'm in a follow-up, but I have some of it that's okay." After everything she's been through, she doesn't want us to use her name, which is understandable. So we're going to call her clear. And clear ended up involved in

the investigation in a way she could never have imagined. "Amazing that she was all over the

godboards and she'll fly out. I mean, I was going to bust in the window and I've seen that god forgive me and I thought she was going to let me skin my daughter." "Just did they think that you looked a bit like that?" "So did they ask you about that?" "Yeah, of course, the picture was really nice." "Yeah, maybe not in my bag." "Since I don't mean in my bag, like, but I've been since 2005."

“"That's how it was." "My statements were like that, like a book, like the book we had, a”

fucking book. All of people was like two of the edges. There was a crucial witness that we talked with the PS, so I'm just like, crucial. I had to be in a contract and you're going all the way." "How long did that last?" "When I got a man, he took it off. I get asked to go in a PS office to just get the, I don't know what he's called. One asked the question and the court." "I dare prosecute her." "I am, he was like, you don't need to worry because I'm the one of the

questions and it's just you and you can work over your statements as I don't need to. He's like a little bit a good idea, so I don't really have anything. I just took a maddening record over the menu and it placed all of me, you have get such a good memory, you remember always cows and vans, as a fuck a joke, it's a good effort, not bad, but I'm out of my life. But, next set." "That's clear talking about how the police actually came to hard door during the

initial investigation because of the similarity she shared with Emma and things like appearance

the Garble's area, just outside of the city centre. The huge image was displayed on Cumberland street in the weeks after her body was found, so it might jog the memory of people who also spent time there. Clear's telling us while she passed the photo on the way towards the drag, it wasn't enough to stop her working at night times and she tells us about something else she shared with Emma too. She'd also visited the infamous cafe that was at the centre of this surveillance arm of the

“murdered investigation. "I'm curious if you guys get done with her. Have you done their cafe?”

They were nice. They talked loud, but I don't know thank you at the end, I don't know. So did you get the cafe that you didn't teach you badly?" "No. Nope. I was enough for that reason, as you know, but they didn't know her jumping and sort of made it to be like something that I might like." "So did you think of the team?" "That's not right, but could be honest, I was looking at the team." She also tells us again about the nagging feeling in

the back of her mind when she was with Packer, something that might just have stopped what happened to Emma happening to her. "Because I know you'd say before that you kept trying to get you into the back of his arms. What made you say that?" "This guy was a regular

mind, but at night time you never picked me up. I used to see him and think, "Yes,

“no, yeah, so him, but someone, I was still, I think I was kind of cheating, bold, and Emma wasn't”

like that." "I said, "Fuckin' out, I mean, Emma was telling me." "No." "I would never went all that way for button. None of the money he paid, let's say. They had pumped up, he stuck Emma without having known him as she's gone. He'd probably said, "Oh, go so much, honey. He's not going to care about Emma." "It's so upsetting, isn't it?" "Do you think he targeted women who he knew would be more of a straight-wise?" "I was like the same bold

exam, and the same king delay. It's like a little stuff born here. I think you're after I said I'm tight, but I think in your, you know, getting the back of Anna, it wasn't a point now, I couldn't do it in the front. It wasn't a safe show that I'm the

sex maybe, yes, but Anna, don't know about it. All of us didn't, I said, I would never do that

“with other numbers, small caves, but you need to eat the money, right? That's what I said,”

sure it like, I was going and the journey was being like, you eat it. That's case you don't realize addiction, you go anywhere, clearly you go anywhere from selling my body for drugs, just like we honest here with us, but there was always something in the back of your hand, and if that, he's eyes will take dark, but mainly I'm 15, darkness. He's eyes will always take dark, not black, little jacket, and that, he always did that on, always, and he always did facts,

so you, that was heaven to stop, and small, so we'd get my cigarette, and you're right for a business, like a cowardly kind, and you were 15, but I was around like three times a week, three times a week, but at night, I'm not. How old were you when you started working on the street 16? Because I don't know much about what I've done, and I can call it, but it was good, not, not, not, it was enough money, I made a lot money, because it was a young, just that I said general, it was just

a very, very fake. Claire telling us that as she felt, she was a bit more street-wise than Emma, a bit tougher, maybe, despite her young age, that the alarm bells rang in her mind when Ian Packer tried to get her into the back of his van, even at 15 years old, the darkness of his eyes was enough to keep her in the front seat, and out of the woods where Emma's body was found, but you can hear the emotion in Claire's voice there, where she's almost campaigning herself

to Emma, side by side, thinking about the split-second decisions in every lifetime that can, just by

chance, lead you towards a completely different fate, which in this case was the difference between life and death. Now we're truly realizing it's the courage of people like Claire, which has

always welcoming us in when we drop round. She shares so much of her life and what she's been through,

“and it feels like we offer so little of ourselves and return, one-sided exchange. The odd”

coffee or slice of cake we bring with us almost an insult to the toll talking about all this takes. So many police officers, they should be, I don't know, but there's a couple who should be able to carry on a book for us. Then you'll hear he was back there, and I don't know, how much do you live with the consequences of that today? I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what happens, so it doesn't fit me badly. It's that time and I hate things to come back. I don't need to watch her shut the documentary on the TV. I don't see no more of the day right now.

It was always in a bar, it's everybody. It didn't fit me up over the day with a few things like, "Oh, isn't that right now?"

“And then I didn't realize, "Oh, that's how I'm supposed to be. Maybe that's why I'm not a pack map in eggs, I wouldn't go far."”

As Claire says, she struggles badly with her sleep. It's when her mind is most awake to what Ian Packer did to her, and that decision she made never to go to remote locations with him, a decision that might just have saved her life. She often text me in the early hours of the morning, whether she's replying to an earlier message or when she'd remember something she wants to ask about the podcast. But really, there isn't much she can learn from me. She's the expert. I'm sure she could write all of this much better than I ever could.

But sadly, Ian Packer haunts the night and days of far too many women. Join us next time when we speak to those who knew him as a young man.

“He did about how his behavior was enabled by those around him. He wrote about a child who he attacked in her own home. Ian Packer's first known victim.”

It was an incubus somebody that sucks it up so life and they enjoy it with any circumstance whatsoever.

But what would it take to finally sneer this monster? You'll also hear from the dedicated police officers who fought to keep Ian Packer's name in the spotlight

and those who worked to keep it appearing in the press. It's quite sensational revolution, you know about this forgotten suspect and it did prompt the police to carry out this fresh investigation. All of which would finally bring him into the dock. Actually, I could enjoy the court. It was a cathartic experience for me getting to talk about it.

That's next time on the Weirburg, the story of a string of women brutally murdered in Glasgow. Most of his cases are still unsolved by police decades later. All the cases we've covered so far, Diane, Marjorie, Jacqueline, Tracy, and Emma were initially investigated by Strath Clyde police. This was replaced by a national force in 2013 called police Scotland. An estateman police Scotland say they acknowledge the pain and the distress suffered by the families.

If you've been affected by any of the issues raised in this podcast and need mental health support or want to talk about your feelings, visit the hub of hope to find services in your area. If you think you might have information about any of the people we mentioned, you can get in touch with us at [email protected]. The Weirburg was written, created and presented by Collette McGonagall, presented and produced by Callum McQueen. The executive producer is Henrietta Harrison.

Sound design is by Jean Stard and Michelle Holman. The Weirburg is a real original podcast by Beiromedia.