5. Iain Packer

Bewarebook contains references to sexual violence and murder,

including in this episode Child Sexual Abuse and Suicide, which some listeners might find upsetting. Yours was an extraordinary campaign of sexual violence, carried out in a single-minded pursuit of your sexual desires. The 28th of February, 2024.

The day a packed gallery at the High Court in Glasgow watched on, as Ian Parker was finally jailed for the merger of Emma Coldwell. The trauma you caused as late to suffering, which has endured for decades. For years, you lied to time and again before you were undone by your arrogance.

The day a heartbroken family finally came face-to-face with Emma's killer. The day justice was finally served after a torturous 19-year weight. During the Child Emma's mum Margaret explained how she spent weeks, searching the streets of Glasgow high and low for her daughter. In a victim statement, she said she's overwhelmed with belief,

depression and anxiety causing a strain on family relationships.

She says it's a day she thought might never come.

The serial rapist was sentenced to at least 36 years behind bars for Emma's murder. And for a string of horrific attacks on other women. Over more than 25 years, you pursued a campaign of violence and a polling sexual mistreatment of a very large number of women. You have caused great harm to so many people

as you indulge your pathologically selfish and brutal sexual desires. Join us to hear from those most impacted by his sadistic and violent attacks, his victims were pretty terrifying. That and then what I would get for her scene, that it was on the bed was pretty terrifying as well.

Then I had to go to school. This guy was a regular man,

but at night, I mean, never picked me up.

“I think I was going to cheek him, bored,”

and Emma wasn't as his fucking op, and Emma was not in me. Not. And from the officers who went through hell to finally put him behind bars for good.

I get diagnosed with complex PTSD during the treatment for that. They went back to this case. To that moment, where I was discredited to where I was called a liar. As we ask, just how prolific a predator was in Parker.

I wouldn't have been surprised if he's done more than he hasn't been caught for that yet. I'm Collette McGonagall. And I'm Callum Aquids. And this is Episode 5 of Be Where Book.

“I'll never forget the moment Ian Parker was sentenced.”

He didn't give away any emotion. Not a hint of reaction as he was told he'd likely die in prison. It was his victims and their loved ones who showed the most feeling. And the extent of his crimes will stay with me for years. Yours was an extraordinary campaign of sexual violence,

carried out in a single-minded pursuit of your sexual desires, leaving no room for the wishes or well-being of the women you abused. You did this in almost every sphere of your life. You would look for vulnerability and exploit it. Why did it take so long to get to this point?

At one of Scotland's highest profile courts in the heart of Glasgow City Center. Opened in 1814, it sits in an area known as the salt market, named because of its past as a bustling trading place for salt, fish, and even well-meat. It faces the entrance to Glasgow Green, which is a sprawling space gifted to the people by Bishop Turnbull in 1450, making it the city's oldest park by some way.

The site of its entrance, the imposing stone pillars known as McLeanon arch, symbolized a darker past. Formally known as Jail Square, it was where crowds would gather to watch public hangings until 1865, when the gruesome practice was moved to the nearby Tron Gate. Across the road, the courthouse itself is fronted by aggression-colonned entrance.

Its grandeur is set off by a distinctive Glasgow City crest carved on the smooth sandstone to the right of its entrance. A threshold that both Kalam and I have crossed many times, to report on some of the country's most serious and compelling crimes, few that would match the consequence of this case.

“But why did it take almost two decades to get to this point?”

Well, in the last episode you heard about the Bungle police investigation into Emma's death. The senior officer's funneled resources at intent expense of surveillance operation focused on a group of men who often paid for sex at a Turkish cafe in Glasgow City Center.

a great expense and great embarrassment to chocolate police.

And while a small number of officers never gave up their belief that Ian Packer was guilty,

there's a period we're having none of it. But once that a much earlier opportunity to stop Ian Packer from becoming the monster who killed Emma, one even before he started using prostitutes regularly from the age of just 18. Before he would draw the drag, or pay for sex at late night's sauna in Glasgow,

when he first started showing signs he might have been capable of murder. For that, we need to speak to someone who knew Ian Packer growing up, someone who knew what he was like in his younger years. Just for labels, please. Michael and Claire, Roberson.

I was the youngest and first victim in the Ian Packer trial that related to Emma Colwell murder. So, Magdalene was Ian Packer's first known victim. He raped her in her family home when she was just 15.

We've interviewed Magdalene or Maggie several times.

First, remotely.

“In a struggling to hear you call it, can you hear call it?”

No. Who's that? Yeah, that's it now. And eventually in person, in her studio on a bright January morning. Hi, how are you doing?

I'm looking for work, nice to meet you. I'm looking for the morning. I was looking for the morning. I was looking for the morning. Magdalene treats us with a tight confident hand shake and a friendly smile.

She works all over the world and offshore projects and is flown home to Glasgow to spend some time with family. And very kindly, she shares a little of that time with us. I really wish her flight last night, and I'll be just flying. Flight was good to come and wait last night.

Shall we go inside? Yes, let's go inside. Oh, it's nice and warm. So we might jump around a bit here. And the sound quality of our interviews might be the two.

There are a couple of other things we should tell you about Magdalene.

She's forensic in her record keeping and a scent over a lot of information since her first Zoom meeting.

I often wonder if this is the influence of her job. She manages large teams and carries out her work methodically and meticulously.

“But does it also help her cope in some way with experiencing such trauma?”

We trade many early morning and late night messages and calls, Magdalene from far-flung destinations, and me usually from a kitchen table. And she's so sharp and matter of fact as she talks us through how Ian Parker groomed and attacked her. She wasn't taken seriously first by her family then by police. But I often have to remind myself she was just a child when she met him.

When she first became the target of his violence and a property. I get asked to sum up in one month. I said there is an incubus. It's not about that. It's about description. So it's really somebody that sucks there.

Up so life and then joy out of any circumstance whatsoever. An incubus, as Magdalene describes Ian Parker there, is defined by the Cambridge dictionary as a male evil spirit. Believe to have sex with women while they're sleeping. Truly horrendous thought considering Magdalene was just 14 when Parker started a relationship

with one of her relatives.

“He pursued her relentlessly the first time at her parents home.”

When he lured her into the living room while others slept, pushed her to the ground and tried to take off her clothes. But when she told the adults in her life she wasn't believed. Parker became bolder and is behavior escalated. And in your own home to what should have been your safe space.

You know that must have just been so heartbreaking to think that I can't get away from this man. No, I couldn't. It was all I'd done. It's wake up and it'll be sent to the bottom of my bed. I can't get away. So the bottom of my bed.

And I get shouted at. Why are you letting him sit there? Oh God, what do you do? You can't leave him with that typologic. You can't understand it. You don't even try to understand it.

We just got all of that. You described him as an incubus. Yeah. You know, we've heard some really awful descriptions of this man. I just can't imagine how terrifying that would have been.

Yeah. Because you're not safe, you can't go to sleep. And then if it's such a new bed, you show your, you're getting a trouble either way. It was pretty terrifying. That and then what I would get for seeing that it was on the bed was pretty terrifying as well.

My Dylan was just 15 when Ian Packer raped her in 1990.

And her own bed with other family members in the home at the time. It was taking her known risk. So in Numa, that wasn't there. In Numa, mom didn't believe me. In Numa that has mom and dad came up to my house to threaten me to tell me to stop.

Cuse in a mother wise that I'm going to be punished. So he knew that all these things were in place. There was all known risks. And that's very seem to go where it was okay. There's people that might be better.

There's parents that might be better.

“What sort of impact did that have on you that nobody stood up for you?”

How did that feel? I was frustrated. I was suicidal. I don't think I had any chance to be anything in life for going anywhere or doing anything.

I always knew I'd deserve better.

That was okay. I knew that. And I knew it was a muffle. But it was absolutely frustrating. I could do a shout-out shout-out.

My brother, younger brother, I'm really, really well with just now. He was in that at that time. He says, "I don't know what was good on." And he was a weak. And he says, "I just wanted to stop seeing stuff all the time."

He says, "But now I actually know what's happened." He says, "I have to stood up for you if I understood now." But yeah, it was quite tough. So, I left house really, really young since I could. And that meant I had bad relationships.

But that wasn't just down in the package. It was down in the people in my life. Not like an afternoon properly. They've got to take some responsibility to. But pack up with the only ever goal where there was no, no, no, no, no.

“Do you think your mom was manipulated by him as well then?”

Yeah, totally, totally. I mean, he says, "Yes, psychopathic." You have to understand that. There's no human sight to him. And as a psychopath, the psychopath, what they'll do is they will manipulate people.

And they'll tell them what they want to hear. They'll both confidence in them. So, he was a gifted little psychopath. And those ways. A few sec as Magdalene's telling us about what Ian Parker was like in his younger years.

When he attacked her repeatedly, Tating her world and family apart. How he operated, measuring vulnerability in young girls, who he felt didn't have anyone to protect them. The adults that were around, he'd tell them what they wanted to hear.

Manipulate them into believing his dangerous lies. Magdalene's being subjected to heinous abuse by Parker. And what she tells us points to the fact that she'd been filled by so many people, her own family. Parker's parents, who she says covered up for him,

enabled him, which allowed his attacks to fly under the radar. I don't believe that.

I was a first one, not a tall.

So, first time when he went to try and attack me, it was kind of a new what he was doing. He's been a friend. I've swear to, he'd be a friend and well before he even attacked me. There was also a point of a skill child was shouting up to the door

but I didn't see my boyfriend. Where were she? Where are she? 14, 13 years old, where are she? But she wasn't named, but I don't even know who she was.

I don't even know if it was investigated. So, there's somebody else before, or somebody else younger than me. There's all the other people in my network that he approached. When we were younger, there was a lot of them. There was basically every female.

Any young female. That wasn't fully protected. It doesn't have the pills with them. I didn't have somebody with them that he couldn't. That he seemed like to guard no more such.

He was in there. I wasn't the first. He's, there's many forgotten and people that people that didn't come forward. He's thinking about the mental sex workers that have came forward. Even if you look at the percentage of people who would actually come into poor sexual assaults.

“If you take that into account, how many would it be?”

How many hundreds would it be? So Parker was already able to manipulate those around him. To hide in plain sight. Even at this early stage of his life. He'd now managed to successfully dodge Madeline's determined accusations thanks to a lack of support from the adults in her life.

And this made him bolder. It encourages behavior to escalate. To the level that would bring him to landfill woods on that cold dark night. When Emma called Will Met her death. But here comes another messed opportunity.

Magdalene did speak to police about Ian Parker. She says they called it in 2005 as part of the initial investigations into Emma called Will's death.

And that he'd raped her all those years before.

“How did your thoughts on the way police handled the situation, compare with Ian Parker and sales?”

You know, is it almost like doubling down on the crime then? It was worse. Because Ian, half of the GTA care under the wall. You're not allowed to make games, but you don't have a specific GTA spirit in the middle of the wall. These people did.

In fact, they promised me anything. They didn't want anything. But the police did. A professional sense. We had a commitment. We had a contractually. The police said that they were going to investigate the crime. And they said that they were going to do that.

And they had the statutory duty at the end of the wall. And it didn't do it. So they didn't uphold that into the parking. On top of all the warnings surrounding Ian Parker. He did mitted to police to regularly ping Emma for sex.

Witnesses had even told officers he'd raped her behind a billboard in the months before her death. In fact, he spoke with police a total of six times between 2005 and 2007, eventually admitting to taking Emma to the remote location where she was killed. He was able to live under the radar for years attacking more women.

“And what changed to propel Parker into the spotlight?”

To tell you that, we need to speak again to crime reporter Norman Solvester who scans as in at his place of work. Thanks Norman. Nice to see you. We meet at the modern silver building right in the heart of Glasgow's business district. OK. We're through here. Not too far at all from an area that used to be known as the drag.

And as we sit down, he starts to tell us about how the media played a role in finally bringing Ian Parker back on the police's radar.

The talks they've been insulated and it was kind of maybe back to square one. But we're well aware of any new investigation. And in 2015, the deal records sister paper that the Sunday mail received information about Parker published an article identifying him as a forgotten suspect. And how important then was this?

Forgotten suspect, press coverage then in really putting the pressure back on police as you say when the case against the detarchishment fell through. There was a gap before this appeared in the press. How much of a role did that play in bringing Ian Parker back to the floor and putting pressure on police to take him seriously as a suspect?

It was quite sensational revelation. You know about this forgotten suspect. And it didn't prompt the police to carry out this fresh investigation. There was also a kind of the early stages within Police Scotland at the time. You recently found Police Scotland a kind of about a witch hunt to find out who would leave the information

but in reality this was a closed inquiry. And you know this information came out here. Officers were no longer on the force. So it's not really leaking.

“But I think it was your reaction from the police bubble over the action at the time.”

And then that prompted the new investigation which you know went back to square one. And the original interviews and officers who didn't use with Parker then they built a very compelling case round that. And later this scrutiny the country's Lord Advocate then ordered police to reopen and quietly ends the packer.

And a new investigation was launched just months after these articles appeared in 2015. 10 years after Emma was killed. But it was Parker's own actions a couple of years later that would seal the deal. 238 teenagers the pressure was growing in Parker really through some demelsaries and others.

They approached the BBC and did another kind of. I was bizarre interview where he volunteered. Yes, you know, there was a suspect it wasn't him. And that kind of added further fuel to the fire. This arrogant schemains me of what Lord Beck had said during Packer Sandencing.

The clip we heard right to the start of this episode. The fact he'd lied him and time again. Only to be eventually undone by his own ego. The resulting interviews only served to shine a spotlight more brightly on him. Until a big development came in February 2022.

Climb one. Next, a man's being charged in connection with the merger of 27-year-olds Emma Caldwell who vanished from Glasgow almost 20 years ago. She stood up hearing court on Monday. It's strange sheeding that back.

This would probably have been the first time I'd covered Emma Caldwell's murder as a journalist

A man finally being charged with the merger of a young woman from Glasgow so many years before

not really knowing the interest it would spark across the country or in us. And then almost two years later, the date victims and family members had waited almost 20 years for came when key witnesses could finally have their say. I actually enjoyed court. It was a cathartic experience for me and we were getting to talk about it.

However, as one of the main police witness, I was called back four or five times to talk about involvement in different parts of the inquiry. So I was there a lot. Giving evidence a lot, being questioned and cross-examined a lot. What was it like to see Emma's family, her friends, the people in her life

that had also been on this really torrid quest for justice. All of your lives had been impacted so much by this man. And by the police and generals' failure to take this seriously. I knew we had all been in something together. I felt I was in this alone for all these years.

I was alone. And no one else was there for me. So this was something I had to get through. It was nice, it caught to be able to put faces to names and to meet people who had been told about statements, things like that.

And there was a camaraderie in the court. You know we're going for coffee and we're waiting for the jury to come up with her verdict. You know we're sitting in those other people who are blathering us. Chethel Chathel about what's going to happen.

“Is it going to be today in the winter or in the winter or in the winter?”

So there was a, there was a can up on there. But overall, I was on my own. And I was in the box on my own. The last 20 years I was on my own. And so that's how I felt.

Yeah, I was determined to give the best evidence I could to get the reo come. And others felt this way too.

That it was a relief to finally be there, to be heard.

And even go toe to toe with a formidable defense team as Magdalene tells us. So I could have went all day with some of the defense that didn't face me. Um, the attention came to the place being the real criminals in the crown. Being the real criminals was much more of a forefront. I wasn't, he was a criminal, but they were the ones that I was after.

I'm quite interested by the fact that you see that as just kind of another step to letting the authorities accountable.

“Do you think that has helped to, um, shift the focus and maybe turn the tide?”

Yeah, it has because the police admitted a fault and gave an apology. And I know that Ronnie Benucci had quite a few, um, run-ins with different witnesses during the trial. How would you describe the way he spoke to you? Oh, he was fine. It did sleep me a little bit, but he was just doing his job.

The fact is that he was upholding justice. And I can't imagine it being very easy for him and has team to have that client. Just for the fact that they dealt with him and all the things they had to find out and stuff through. It's only commendable that somebody did that. That's gonna be in their life for years, that'll be in their head for years.

Yeah, good for them, um, I think they could all actually be psyched for what they'd done.

But there were no guarantees Parker would finally be punished for his chilling crimes.

It also meant everyone had to go back over very difficult memories and then go through the excruciating weight for the verdict.

“And even when he ran the court, I asked when I'd done keys there was still work to do and I said, "I think he's gonna be even asleep."”

I could have fucking died. I don't mean that I was raging really. But there must have been so many emotions, especially seeing him. Oh, he was horrible and he drank so many glasses of water, did you notice that? Bastard, don't you drown in that, but really it didn't want me to do that.

Okay, just saying. Clear talking us through how she felt while waiting for the verdict was several very serious charges against him.

But then, after four long days of deliberations, the moment was finally here.

I've been found guilty of the murder of Emma Coldwell and a large number of other very serious crimes. For murder of the sentences fixed by law, you will be sentenced to life imprisonment. And for one family, almost 20 long and painful years of waiting were put to an end.

“What does this moment feel like to be at this stage that you've been waiting so long for?”

I feel relieved, not overjoyed, not elated, not punching the ear or opening champagne. I just feel relieved. Is it sort of a bit after all this time? What was it like going to the trial and giving you the evidence? It's fitting the evidence about that.

I got through it, I got through it all right. How did you feel listening to what's being said over the last few weeks?

That was very difficult because you've listened to things that you don't want to listen to.

And rather, it wasn't said. You've just got to sit through it, walk for the best. Yes, I just had to keep going, had to do something for Emma. And then my husband passed away and his last thing he said was keep going. And what is the future hold?

I'm sorry, I just need a minute of course. I want to spend time with my grandchildren. They're so important to me. They mean everything in this world to me. But also going forward. I was very disappointed.

And how the police handled this case. And I'd like to feel in quiet. That was Margaret Coldwell. Emma's mum speaking to me outside of court. You can hear the pain as she talks about setting through the trial. All the really difficult evidence she had to listen to.

The years of turmoil and the brutal loss of her daughter. But as I was sitting with her, I was also struck by her determination to keep pursuing justice. Even promising her husband on his deathbed she wouldn't give up. And she still hasn't. She wants the police to be held at account for their mistakes.

Something she has in common with another of Ian Parker's victims. If I was, I was going to say the police. And if I won, I'd give all the money to Emma Coldwell's mum. Did you get much time to speak to her at court? No, I didn't. I didn't speak to her at all.

She was, she said that she wanted to come to the case. When I was given evidence. And I just kept it on the internal look. I'll take you out for dinner. I'll treat you, I'll come up and see you, maybe.

She's just, she's not said that she's yet. But in order that she wants to come.

“What would you say to her, if I'm willing to do me?”

Um, I don't know, I think it would just be quite natural. I think she would talk about Emma. She might be talk about her grandkids. Um, she might have questions, I don't know. Do you think it would be helpful to you or to harder maybe both?

I've not sure, maybe. Um, I don't know, maybe too much for her to make me. Yeah. Thanks, though. Magdalene, they're talking about how she wants to sue police.

For the mistakes made during the Emma Coldwill investigation, including not pursuing her allegation of rape against Ian Parker in 2005. So even though he has now been convicted of Emma's murder, not everyone feels justice has been fully served.

“Remember to that he was convicted of 33 charges in total of sexual and physical violence”

against 22 different women between 1990 and 2016. His list of victims included 16, sex workers, women he lived with, guests at adult sex parties, and his first target, 15 year old Magdalene, who he raped in her own home. The verdict was of course welcomed by many, but by no means an end to the story.

Just even for me being outside of it. It just makes me so angry that how many people have been impacted and how many people like you are still living with what you did. You know, I was sad as well. The read is that no longer feel to get an approval for that.

Why? Because of that? I'm speakful.

You'll never get out, I don't think.

Do you go? Do you go out to be very surprised?

I think? It's like similar to if you get it for us. That means something else. It's like something else. But yeah, I would be surprised if you ever got out.

“I think like having been there and sat through the trial.”

It was a real watershed moment, wasn't it? Seeing all those women giving evidence. And you could just feel the height of a motion every single day. It was horrible. Horrible.

Inside the court, and also out in the hall as well. You could just feel like. There was people went to school room there. I was like. And I remember the mum was a school teacher.

Speaking about that's a clip. She's been a clip, why is I? So there are still plenty of unanswered questions then. As Claire says, there is testimony to suggest. Ian Parker's behavior was worrying well before he ever met Emma.

Or any of the other women he attacked. Even before he raped Magdalene in 1990.

“And what about all the years following the known attacks on Magdalene?”

Before Emma's murder? Or of the almost two decades he lived freely after killing her? He'd begin to get her heads around what the consequences of that actually might have been. We've spoken to other victims ourselves of attacks at the hands of Parker. He was free for such a long time.

Do you think that we can realistically know the extent of his offending? No. Short answer. There's a lot more to be found out about Ian Parker. Personally.

I don't think it was his first murder.

I think there's going to be more found out in the future. We'd love to be involved in something to do with that. But I think that's far more to it. Those are a part of behavior here. They discovered during the trial, which is now common knowledge.

He did the same thing to several girls. Although Emma was only one we know of at this time. Who was murdered? I see no reason for the not to be more. And former detective Stuart Hall is not the only one.

I'm just glad to go. I'm so grateful to go. And I wouldn't have been surprised if he's done more, and he hasn't been caught for that yet.

“Because I think he thinks he's a smile, I'll say it.”

I'll be with you all that time. Anne Mackelveen from the charity salt and light again there. We've heard from her a few times now. Anne Claire, two people who knew exactly how Ian Parker operated. And who think he could have hurt more women, maybe even killed them?

But can we just leave that question hanging in the ear? Another victim of Parker, Magdalene, thinks not. It's traveling everywhere. He's going different places. And a white fan is working in a community. He's getting conscious if I'm going to have the conscious with local governments.

They breathe there. Hey, the access. What can skills for children with disabilities? And adults with learn and difficulties, you're working there. That's how you went on. Aren't they hungry? You're going to tell what's going on. He had absolute access to different people.

That's quite a scary thought that Ian Parker was living free and unchecked in the community. Magdalene claims he was working with vulnerable people during that time. And something else that no one is considered before too.

They've always went to Florida, books, and they didn't know every year for two years.

They've been attacking people because you don't have a serial rapist and sexual offended. And to say, "Achaman holiday from that, you have its go with you." If you smoke, you don't stop smoking when you're going holiday. Then it's in your field, but more relaxed. But your vases don't you? So he would have been definitely within there.

Um, there's six clubs as a strip club. So what have you there just will? And you're probably abusing people in the hotel. I make that assumption. I would bit money on it. I remember speaking to Calam straight after I got off that cult with Magdalene. It just stopped me where I was.

Of course, I knew Ian Parker had lived a life of freedom for almost 20 years After merging Emma. Even had thoughts of him traveling up and down the country in his van.

But why had I never thought of him boarding a plane for holiday?

And at the same time, it's such an obvious thought. He was living a normal life.

“Certainly not in the way he behaved, but in the freedoms he had.”

And when we did talk about this, we realized that of course he would be going on holiday. That there was nothing and no one to stop him. He could go to places where nobody would know where he would probably feel more relaxed and more able to indulge in his vases. So we asked Magdalene about it again when we met up at the studio.

I didn't even thought about it until we mentioned that. The fear is the fact of going to Florida and being around all these children and young people. Yeah, that's so skating in itself, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine that.

The places, there's also the adult places that he would go to. We also know from the court case he used to join the six clubs in the university to get to far with the people who were already open minded. He took it to far with him. They would express with him and he could get somebody who was into what he was into.

But now I had to go and mock that one up. But there was also the, he got into there with the massage clubs with

“processes and the massage clubs. How can you get into there for that?”

So we didn't know that it's obviously had to see this problem. We know that he's committed so many lapses. We've been convicted of and there's all the other potential victims that we haven't heard about. But yes, it's reasonable choice to believe that he would have attacked people in the states and floated like this. It's a good chance.

That's Magdalene there talking about what came out about Ian Packard during him as murder trial. That he used to go to sonas and sex clubs and use prostitutes, not occasionally but a lot to the point of getting into debt, and that he used to attack women in these places too. So is it reasonable to think he wouldn't stop this behavior on holiday either?

Prime reporter Norman Sylvester doesn't think Packard could control his marriages. You'd have to think that Ian Packard somebody who has committed other offenses. Maybe not just in Glasgow, but maybe elsewhere. You know, he was running a business. He had access to a van. You know, you would travel.

You know, this is a guy who owns addiction to violence against women. You know, he was in the occasional offender. He was doing a serial and industrial scale.

So it wouldn't surprise me if Packard was other victims out there and probably never be released from prison.

So no danger of ever returning to society. But it would be interesting to know whether other women out there, you know. Are there more women out there? Retired detectives, street hall, also thinks it's likely there will be many more victims both here and abroad.

“When people go and holiday, they go and holiday to relax to let their head down to, you know?”

So that's him going to stop in a part of the behaviour that's who he is. And his campaign of violence towards women, that goes beyond my involvement. You know, prior to that, when he was a young man, also came out in the trial. He was violent towards women. So that just seems to be who he is, how he deals with life and women.

So absolutely, there'll be more in this country and I think we're everybody's holiday. But while it may have come as a bit of a shock to us, do police already have suspicions in Packard's horrendous attacks might have been taking place in other countries too. Magdalene certainly thinks so.

There's an investing that took it to Spain. But investigations, I don't know why, and I don't know how it was. But they had the reason to go to Spain to question people. So that's been passed on to you that they were definitely in Spain as part of the investigation. I know that he was in Spain because the police told me that they were going to Spain as part of their investigation.

I don't know why did he tell me anything like that. I think there were quite sighted. So if they were given a job to do, and they weren't really of that level to do. Is that type of job before? So we need to know more.

Magdalene's saying police officers were set to travel to Spain as part of their investigations into Ian Packard back in 2015.

The inquiry that would finally bring him to court

did anything come of this. We'll need to do some digging on that. And our police looking into the US allegations.

on the investigation into Emma Coldwills murder.

So police Scotland said he can't comment on anything around this case until that's finished. Although Magdalene says after what she's been through, she's happier taking it into her own hands. So the person has put to an FBI was really, really polite. And they told them the situation. We went over it from the beginning right to the end.

It took down details of the police. It took the details of the court case. The court case was gone on at the time. And it took information down. Magdalene also tells us that she felt more valued and listened to on that call with an FBI officer than she ever did during her interviews with police over here.

Also that she finds it so frustrating packer was allowed to travel unrestricted for so long. But isn't there an alliance between the UK and America? Isn't there an alliance there?

About 11 mothers in pedophiles to travel.

Doctor isn't some sort of agreement now. So maybe that's where it is. Maybe the GTS there between the countries. The Scotland knot will add you to the states. So while we'll take all these allegations to police Scotland too,

the upcoming public inquiry makes it very difficult to pursue the official route for the moment anyway. But that doesn't put Magdalene off when we tell her. I think we're about two inches away from finding out what's happened in the states. I just really need to find out exactly where he was in Florida. And then I'm going to hire a private investigator.

“That's what that's really what I want to do.”

I just need to find out that little bit of information. So if anybody's getting information to tell me exactly where he used to go in Florida. It would be really good if parcels mom and dad would divulge that information wherever your house. But did you stay? Just tell us where you stayed.

I'll hire an investigator. I'll show you a son who's attacking people in the states. She also thinks there are certain things about Ian Packer that would make him really easy to identify. They didn't wash, he wasn't very clean. It wasn't very clean.

That was a long time ago, but every day everybody also reported that he's not been nearly clean after that. Pretty small. So he's thankful. There's so many small things. Small looked like a Neanderthal.

And he's very, very stalky. So he's getting extremely wide neck. And he's very strong. So I think he's very distinctive. Plus he's accent with the studio as well.

Because lots of photos that could be shared, then I don't know why. The police have just not handed that over that information to the states. We don't know anything about that.

I've never heard of it being over there.

Maybe they have, but highly too. This predetermined going to the Florida where all the children are. It's really hard to get your head around just how much damage he and Parker have done to so many different people. From Emma, who he brutally killed and callously left her body in remote woodland, while her friends and family fancily searched for her.

Magdalene, who he sexually assaulted at the age of 14 and raped to the age of 15, in her own family home. To clear her who he attacked and sexually assaulted, who merrily refused to go long distances with him or get into the back of his van.

“Do you know what really helped me seem to have seen Emma's mom?”

How much she's aged? I know we aged, but I knew that was a bit sadness and grief in her body and what happened. And that made me sick. Just a tool. I already jumped there.

You know, we're just sitting with the judge command. And he told me she had upset her. But it's not nice. But it's not nice. That room.

I don't think she was long. I think she's got what she needs in. She's dead. I don't know. I don't know.

We're seeing her as her. And of course, Emma's mom Margaret, who clear is talking about there. There are just so many other victims. Perhaps some who we don't even know about.

“How was he able to get away with such violence for so long?”

Well, he did have help. Whether it was people in his life who excused or ignored his escalating behavior, adults who enabled him are too kids side over their own children. And senior police who ruled him out as a suspect for so long, leaving a lasting impact on the officers who swore he was indeed a murderer.

It's for such a long time I tried to forget about the case. People would try and talk to me occasionally when a bump in is someone. And I take a reaction, I go blotchy, I get angry when I talk about it.

That's retired officer Stuart Hall there who says the consequences were devastating for so many different people.

“One morning I was getting ready to go to work.”

And I was sitting in the end of my bed. I was getting dressed and I was crying and putting my socks on. The thought of having to go in and face people again. I'm not making this about me, I don't want to make this about me. In 2018 I get diagnosed with complex PTSD during this treatment for that.

They went back to this case.

To that moment where I was discredited, to where I was called a liar,

to where I was taken off the packer side of it. This is much as I want to say about me. But when you get that, it's not something that you go for counseling and it goes away. You always have it. Perhaps it makes you a bit more aware of it.

And your reactions to things. And how you deal with things. I did become angry.

I believe this case changed me.

“We want to know, has anything really changed since Packer's conviction?”

What is Glasgow Light now? Are those living and working on its streets really any safer? In the next episode, we'll take you on a walk through the city's red light district. No one has the drag. I've saw glasses and women getting stabbed.

Slagged severely. Be up. It's really nice. It's especially when you see teenage girls. That's not a nice sight to see at all.

“How do you feel when you're on your own out in the street and...”

So that's next time on the Weirburg. The story of a string of women brutally murdered in Glasgow. Most of his cases are still unsolved by police. Decades later. All the cases we've covered so far.

Diane, Marjorie, Jacqueline, Tracy, and Emma were initially investigated by Strath Clyde Police. This was replaced by a national force in 2013 called Police Scotland. In a statement police Scotland say the acknowledged the pain and the distress suffered by the families and also say none of their unresolved murder investigations would ever be closed. You've been affected by any of their issues raised in this podcast and need mental health support.

I want to talk about your feelings. Visit the hub of hope to find services in your area. If you think you might have information about any of the people we mentioned, you can get in touch with us at [email protected]. Beirburg was written that created and presented by me, Colette McGonagall.

Presented and produced by Callum McQueen. The executive producer is Henrietta Harrison. Sound design is by James Stard and Michelle Holman. Beirburg is a real original podcast by Beiromedia.