The Test

I think it's just important for people to understand how credit can work for you where

against you.

“Why that little piece of plastic has so much power?”

That's this week on Explained It To Me. By new episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. I got in the water in the very early morning before the sun had risen and the water was pitch black. I started swimming and I felt the water hollowing out around me and felt like something really

big was swimming below. I'm Phoebe Judge and this is love. A show about the surprising things that love can make us do.

More than a hundred episodes available now on this is love.

This episode contains adult content. Please use discretion. On December 16th, 2000, Mike Williams had planned to go duck hunting on Lake Seminole, which was just on the Florida Georgia border.

“Mike often went duck hunting, usually he went with a friend, but this morning apparently”

he decided to go alone. And although he was a successful duck hunter and he enjoyed it very much, some people said that he did actually take risks that he stood up in the boat to take risky shots and so forth. So people became worried when he hadn't returned home.

This is Arthur MacKita Broadman.

Lake Williams was in his early 30s and lived in Tallahassee, Florida, with his wife Denise and their young daughter. The day Mike went duck hunting was his wedding anniversary. He and Denise planned to celebrate by spending the night at an inn on the coast about an hour and a half south.

They agreed to leave Tallahassee around noon. And people became more and more worried when Mike hadn't returned specifically because he,

“like I said, he was kind of a known to be a risky sportsman, but also because this terrible”

storm front was coming in. So Denise and her father and a friend of Mike's out to the lake to look for him, very quickly they found his car, but no sign of Mike. They thought he must be still out on the lake. Denise's father called Fish and Wildlife to report a missing.

And he then drove to different spots along the bank with an officer looking for a sign of his boat on the water. Pretty soon a search party was organized with the Department of Fish and Wildlife representatives from the sheriff department were there. It was a huge search, but they couldn't continue searching that night because there was

this very unusual for Florida, terrible winter storm. So the search was delayed until the following morning, much to people's anxiety because at this time, people were really panicking. Denise refused to come out of a room she was terribly upset. As soon as the weather improved, Mike's best friend Brian Winchester and his father took a

boat out to look for Mike. And they actually came across Mike's boat after a few hours and Brian even found Mike's cap in the water. So people were incredibly frightened about what had happened and even helicopters who brought in cadaver dogs brought in.

State authorities borrowed a special underwater camera from the National Geographic Society and brought in dive teams. When words spread that Mike had gone missing, members of the community joined in the search efforts. A friend of Mike said that at least 20 people showed up every day.

But they didn't find anything else. After 44 days on February 10, 2001, the search was called off. Mike's family and friends presumed he was dead. Denise was terribly, terribly upset by this. She cut herself off from all her friends.

She was suffering horribly. Mike's family held a memorial service for him at the Baptist church they attended. But some people still found it odd that no trace of his body had turned up at the lake. A friend of Mike's new medical examiner and a retired state marshal and he asked them what they made of it.

And they told him that it was very unusual for a body to disappear with no sign of it, emerging from the water, but when the water warmed up the body would surface in the spring, both of them were very sure that the body would surface from their experience and their

A few months went by and still no sign of the body.

“The expert Mike's friend had consulted said the same thing that it was very unusual.”

In June, a fisherman found a pair of hunting weighters in the lake. Later that month, a friend of Mike's broad and expert diver to the same spot and the diver found a camouflage hunting jacket with Mike's hunting license in the pocket. By late summer, authorities decided on what they thought was the most likely reason they hadn't found his body.

Like Seminole was known for rather sizeable alligators, and in fact during the search to find Mike's body, a number of the investigators said that they encountered alligators in the

water, including one having his ankle bitten by one and someone else actually tried

on one. And after Mike's body disappeared, many people started to wonder if he might have been attacked by alligators. Nobody thought that he would actually have been eaten alive by alligators, but people did wonder since his body didn't surface if he might have not himself out, drowned,

and then his body being consumed by alligators. Miquita says that Mike's mother, Cheryl, wasn't convinced by this explanation. She decided to reach out to a biology professor at Florida State University. And he actually wrote back and said to her, "Your son could not have been eaten by alligators because alligators don't eat during the winter."

The authorities also consulted alligators experts who agreed that alligators don't feed in the winter, but some people said that maybe an alligator had hidden Mike's body away and had waited until spring to feed. Another problem with the alligator theory was that Mike's hunting jacket had been found in the lake in good condition. No bite marks.

Mike's mother believed there was enough evidence to show that Mike had not been eaten by an alligator. She began wondering if Mike hadn't died in the lake. She did not believe that Mike was dead and said that she had an experience that she heard

“God's voice telling her, "Mike is not dead. Mike did not die in the lake. You have to”

bring him home. She thought maybe he'd not his head lost his memory and was wandering somewhere. She thought perhaps he'd taken on a new identity, gone to live in a different state." Miquita says Cheryl, who was 56 at the time, started putting all of her energy and defining Mike. She reached out to missing persons networks, made indistributed flyers and posters

with Mike's photo and put ads in the newspaper. She even paid for a billboard. Cheryl also made a picket sign with Mike's face on it and the word missing and would carry it around town outside the Florida State Football Stadium on game days and outside a local church on Sundays. The nace was absolutely opposed to Cheryl's constant search for Mike, which many people

found peculiar. I mean, if your husband, your child's father, had gone missing, wouldn't you do everything you possibly can to find him. But Denise repeated what her family had told

“her, which is, you should listen to the experts. The experts told her that Mike would not”

be coming back. She believed the experts. Denise and Mike's daughter was very young at the time. And Denise had quit her job when she was born. Now, she didn't have a steady source of income. Mike had several life insurance policies, but Denise wouldn't be able to access that money until Mike was legally declared dead, a process that takes years when there's no body.

Marcus Winchester, the father of Mike's best friend, Brian, offered to help. Marcus owned an insurance and investment firm and used his connections to get Denise a certificate of presumptive death in June of 2001 about six months after Mike disappeared. She eventually

received $1.8 million in benefits.

As time went by, Denise and Brian Winchester started spending more and more time together. By December of 2003, three years after Mike disappeared, they were engaged. About four years later, a local reporter revealed that Brian Winchester had sold Mike a million dollar life insurance policy, just six months before he disappeared.

Hi, it's Phoebe. Here to tell you about our newsletter. If you're not already getting

“it, we send one out every couple of weeks and we hope it's an email that you'll actually”

look forward to getting. When you sign up, you'll hear from me and you'll hear from the producers who work on the show. You'll find out about episodes that we're making right now, the books and movies we're enjoying and questions we have for you. Sometimes we put

in pictures from our reporting trips or of our pets. You'll also be the first to find out

about live events we're planning or new merch or giveaways. New subscribers who join our mailing list by the end of the month will be entered into

“a drawing for a one year criminal plus membership. You can sign up right now at this”

criminal.com slash newsletter. What are the main takeaways of the foreign policy section from Donald Trump's State of the Union address? I do think they've made a decision to elevate domestic issues as we head towards the midterms. We'll see if that sticks because he keeps getting drawn back to the foreign policy issues. I'm John finer. And I'm Jake Sullivan, and we're the host of the long game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, we'll react to President Trump's State of the Union address, the situation with Iran, and the eruption of violence involving cartels in Mexico. The episodes out now, search for and follow the long game wherever you get your podcasts.

Denise and Mike Williams, Brian Winchester, and his first wife Kathy, had all grown up in Tallahassee together. In a very small

Baptist community, very close. New each other from actually from preschool, a very tight knit force them as they went through high school. They went to a Christian high school. Mike and Brian were football stars Denise and Kathy were cheer leaders. Brian and Kathy were always a couple. After college, Brian and Kathy got married and Mike and Denise got married. Arthur McKee de Brottman says that the four of them kept spending a lot of time together. They started going to night clubs and concerts, tried drugs, went to strip clubs.

And it was almost as though after denying themselves the whole lives, sex, alcohol, the kinds of things that most most people enjoy in high school. They sort of broke out of the straightened back to circumstances and began to experiment. Sometimes Brian would ask his wife Kathy and Denise to take their clothes off and post together so he could take pictures. It seemed that Brian and Denise were much more interested in these kind of lured games than were Kathy and Mike who were

keen on settling down. Kathy wanted to start a family and Mike just worked so hard. He wanted to get up only in the morning and go to work. He stayed at work late at night.

But Brian and Denise weren't ready to settle down. They would leave their spouses at home and go to concerts and clubs together instead.

“And they kept it a secret from Kathy and Mike. It became very clear that during these”

escapades that Brian and Denise had long conversations about their relationships, about their satisfaction, about their respective marriages, and it became very clear that they were interested in each other sexually. Perhaps even that they had both married the wrong person and that they should have married each other. Makita says they started meeting at each other's houses when Mike and Kathy were at work. Other times they'd meet up in church parking lots or local hotels.

Sometimes, if one of them went on a business trip, the other would come along. It seemed like no one suspected them and they continued with their lives as normal. Kathy and Denise both got pregnant within about a year of each other. Makita says Denise wasn't totally sure if the father of her baby was Mike or Brian. Denise and Brian kept seeing each other even though having young children at home made it harder.

They continued to be completely obsessed with each other and devoted to each other, but they also continued to embrace the church. And over time, they seemed to become increasingly guilty and began to think more about how could they be together while remaining in the strictures of the Baptist Church. Divorce was something that they simply, Denise, in particular, was simply unable to face, unable to consider.

But both of them felt that if you had a really, really strong feeling about something, a real

what Brian and Denise did was kind of try and wrap, stretch their religion to fit their desires

“by telling each other that maybe they could submit Mike to a test. And if Mike failed the test,”

it was a way that God was speaking to them, telling them that he wanted them to be together. Brian later said, "The subject of Mike's death started coming up in conversations. There were scenarios that were discussed. They talked about staging an accident. Brian and Mike could go duck hunting together and Brian could push Mike overboard. The heavy duty hunting waiters, Mike was wearing, would fill up with water, and he could

drown." And then if he, you know, if he survived, that was God saying, "No, I don't want

you to be together. Denise should stay with Mike, but if Mike drowned, that was God saying,

"Yes, it's my will that you two should be together." In April of 2008, months before Mike disappeared, Brian sold him a new insurance policy

“for $1 million. It was Mike's third life insurance policy and the second from Brian.”

Mike had planned to let one of his other policies lapse, but Denise continued paying for it behind his back. Denise and Brian decided to carry out their plan the week before Denise and Mike's wedding anniversary. Brian and Mike made plans to go hunting, but the night before Mike called Brian and told me how to cancel. Denise wanted Mike to stay home. Brian met up with Denise the next day to find out what had happened, and remembers telling her

either were going through with this, or not.

That counting season was almost over, and so Brian persuaded Denise that it was now or never

basically, and she agreed she finally went along with it. After Mike disappeared, Kathy Brian and Denise spent a lot of time together. Kathy later said that even though she and Brian were the couple, she started to feel like she didn't belong. And she'd found her seat for a necklace Brian had purchased. The receipt showed that it had been a custom necklace with the word "meridian."

Kathy immediately recognized Meridian as a nickname Denise sometimes went by her party name. Within a few years, Kathy and Brian separated. She moved out and told him she wanted a divorce. And again, with all this stigma about divorce and the Baptist Church, and since Brian and Denise were unable to contemplate the fact of Denise's divorce, it seemed strange that Kathy could just get divorced pretty easily from Brian.

It kind of threw into question what Brian and Denise had done. If there was, if you could get divorced without stigma, without condemnation, without being thrown out of the church, it really made what they'd done seem horrifyingly unnecessary.

“But it did mean that Brian and Denise could stop keeping the relationship a secret.”

In 2003, they got engaged and in 2005, they got married. Not all of Denise's relatives approved of her marrying someone who had been divorced, and some people were surprised that Cheryl Williams, Mike's mother, hadn't been invited to the wedding. Besides paying for the billboard and carrying a missing poster with Mike's face around town,

Cheryl had been writing letters to the local newspaper, the Tallahassee Democrat. Eventually, she got in touch with her reporter named Jennifer Portman. Jennifer Portman became very interested in this case. She began to meet with Cheryl. She began to sympathize with Cheryl. She too found it very suspicious that the man who'd sold Mike's insurance policies was now married to Mike's wife, and she began posting

an article every year about Mike's disappearance saying how many days it was that he'd been missing, how many years it was since he'd been missing. Jennifer had reached out to Brian and Denise for comment multiple times. They wouldn't agree to talk, but sometimes sense statements over email. In 2007, Brian wrote, "Nobody wants Mike to be found more than we do. We continue to love Mike and miss him every day. We ask again that our privacy be respected and that our family

be allowed to live our lives in peace." After Jennifer learned that Brian sold Mike a large life insurance policy just a few months before his disappearance,

There was a lot of talk in speculation about Mike's disappearance on the newspapers online form.

“You know, gossip and implications and rumors and suggestions in the community, and it really must have”

put enormous pressure on Brian and Denise. They wouldn't speak about the crime even in front of each other in a private space. So they developed this range of hand signals that they would use to suggest that they wanted to talk about the crime. One of them was holding bars as if you were miming that you were in prison. And if either of them made one of these gestures, it meant that they wanted to talk about the crime. They would go to a isolated area

and before even having a conversation, they would leave their cell phones in the car and sometimes

even take the batteries out of their cell phones. Because by this time, they were getting suspicious

of each other and there was even a stage where they would both actually pat each other down before they had conversations.

“Miquita says that by this point, the police no longer believe that Mike drowned and had been eaten”

by alligators. They suspected Mike had been murdered and that maybe Brian and Denise had something to do with it, but they had no evidence. They sent to each other many times, unless they turn on each other, nothing could be done. Mike's mother, Cheryl, wrote letters to the governor's office daily trying to get someone to help. In 2011, producers from a show called "Disappeared," heard about the case and put together an episode about it. They interviewed Mike's family, friends,

and Jennifer Portman, who said, "If anyone should be questioning what happened to Mike, you'd think it would be his wife and best friend, and they won't really comment on this." In 2012, Brian wrote in his journal that Denise wanted to separate. He wrote that during an especially bad argument, he'd grabbed Denise's wrists and pushed her against a door. "I saw how she was scared, so I let her go and she ran out."

Brian moved out, but Denise did agree to go to couples therapy for several years. Still in 2015, she filed her divorce. Brian later said, "I did not handle the news well. I dealt with it by drinking and indulging in inappropriate relationships." Mikeyda says he was spending a lot of money on strippers and prostitutes.

And then, in 2016, Denise went to the police and said she wanted to tell them about something Brian had done. She said he had tried to kidnap her. The police had been waiting for this chance for 16 years, they've been waiting for Brian and Denise to turn on each other and now it had happened. "We'll be right back."

“"Okay, Nikola, Chris Frage. How much do you need to pay? What brings us more?"”

"Moment, I checked the code. OHA, how much is it? Bring it in for 150 euros a year." "Yeah, right, but how much do you know?" "Why? How much time do you need to pay? That's just the amount of money for everyone." "Yeah, I would ask you, too." "2047 and unbalanced German, that's just the amount of money you need to pay."

"Stay and read it." "Say, with how much money you need to pay." "In the wake of the release of millions of documents related to the Jeffrey Epstein case,

the rich and famous are finally feeling some pain. But even with corporate resignations here,

and with former Prince Andrew being arrested in the UK, the question remains. How did Jeffrey Epstein remain a thriving member of the elite for decades when everyone seemed to know what he was up to?" "I don't think you could be friends with Jeffrey Epstein, who's MO was obviously having sex with young girls, even as Trump said, on the younger side, and not know his MO." "Untangling the Epstein conspiracy. That's this week, one today explained,

every weekday and now one Saturdays." The day before Denise Williams went to the police, Brian Winchester purchased a gun from a sporting goods store. He decides to kill himself. He writes 10 suicide notes to his various friends, family members, his father, his mother, his son. And then he decides before he does it, he wants to face Denise

Denise's house. He climbs over the gate. He hides in her car in the back of her car.

“The next morning, Denise got in her car, around 9 a.m. to go to work.”

When she was driving, she called her sister to check in. She later said that the moment her sister picked up, she saw a movement in her rear view mirror. It was Brian. He was climbing from the way back of her car into the back seat with a gun. Denise is absolutely petrified. She's screaming. She throws her phone down. She manages to swerve into the parking lot of a pharmacy, a big pharmacy.

And she pulls up what she knows that there's a security camera. Denise later said that Brian held his gun to her ribs and said, "If you try to get away, I'll have to hurt you." She said that his breath smelled like alcohol,

“and that he was rambling, and wasn't making a lot of sense.”

He said he still loved her, and that he wanted to kill himself. They sat there for nearly an hour. People went in and out of the pharmacy, but Denise was scared that if she signaled to anyone, Brian would shoot her. She tried to calm them down. She kept telling him that she could help him, that it wasn't too late to turn his life around.

Finally, she convinced Brian to let her go to work.

She swore she wouldn't go to the police. But as Brian got out of her car, Denise saw him take some things from the back,

“a plastic sheet, and what she thought looked like a bottle of bleach and a shovel.”

Denise decided to go to the police after all, but Makita says she didn't fully consider that if the police arrested Brian, they might also try to question him more about Mike's disappearance. She did not want them to ask him about the murder or to charge him with the murder, because she knew that he would implicate her. The room incest is leading the investigation into the disappearance of Mike Williams.

He starts asking Denise about Mike and about whether or not she thought Brian had anything to do with his disappearance.

Denise said, "I do not, and I never have. I'd never have married him if I'd have thought that."

Later that day, the police arrested Brian and charged him with aggravated kidnapping, domestic assault with the deadly weapon, an armed burglary. Brian was taken to the county jail, and an assistant state attorney decided to raise the kidnapping charge from aggravated to armed, a more serious charge. It many couldn't be released on bond. His lawyer tried to work out a plea deal,

but was unsuccessful. And then Brian heard that Denise was pushing for the maximum sentence. And the prosecutors came to him and said, "Look, you're going to get life without parole." Unless there's anything you want to tell us about Mike's death, and at this point Brian realized it was his only chance. The prosecutors agreed to grant him immunity in the disappearance of Mike Williams if he fully and truthfully answered all their questions.

So Brian began to tell the story of what actually happened on the lake. He and Mike went duck hunting. As planned, they went out on the lake as planned. Brian asked Mike to stand up in the boat as planned. He pushed Mike overboard as planned, and that's where things stopped going as planned. Brian said that he and Denise had expected Mike would drown. He thought that the waiters, hunters wore, could quickly fill with water. But what Brian hadn't

realized was Mike was wearing a new kind of waiters that prevented this from happening. And Mike didn't drown. He actually swam to one of the stumps in the lake, clung onto the stump, and started screaming. This was not what Brian had anticipated. Brian had no idea what to do. He said he felt he had no alternative. He started the

and shot him in the head. After that, he realized, Mike's body can't be found with a bullet

“hole in his head. This is obviously not a drowning. He realized he had to get rid of the body.”

So he took one of Mike's feet in his hand. He dragged the body to shore. He pulled it out of the lake. He went to get his truck. He lifted Mike's body into the tailgate of his truck. Brian trained Labrador retrievers as a hobby, and he actually had a crate in the back of his truck. A dog crate, a big dog crate. So he hauled Mike's body, shoved it into this dog crate in the

back of his truck, slammed the truck shirt, and drove as fast as he could to tell a hassy.

He realized that he had to convince Kathy that he'd been there all along, that he hadn't gone

“out to go duck hunting with Mike, because Denise had told everyone that Mike had gone out alone.”

So Brian drives home with Mike's body in the trunk of his car. He parks the car outside the house. He goes in the house. He addresses. He gets in bed where Kathy still asleep. He's made sure that Kathy got pretty drunk the night before. They went to a concert so that she doesn't work up early. Kathy still asleep. Brian makes a big fuss about waking up, oversleeping. He says something to Kathy about going out to take his dogs out. He makes sure that

Kathy's acknowledged his presence. He goes outside, and there is the truck with Mike's body inside

“it. He has to bury the body, but first he has to get a shovel and weight and a top. And to do that,”

he has to go to Walmart. Leave his car with Mike's body in it, in the Walmart parking lot, go into Walmart by what he needs, take it out and put it back in the car. And ironically, when he's in Walmart, he actually runs into an old friend of his who now works for the police force. So he gets out of Walmart, gets back to the truck. He decides to take Mike's body to a place that he knows which is pretty isolated and overgrown. He digs this grave. And even then, during that time,

he's actually interrupted by a hunter who comes by and Brian manages to hide what he's doing and make small talk and have an ordinary conversation. He manages to bury the body, even though it's in a shallow grave and that's where it remains for the next 16 years. The police recovered Mike's body after a six-day excavation. It took a team of 30 people to search and dig in the area Brian identified. Police wanted to keep the dig quiet so they told onlookers that it was just a

training exercise. As part of Brian's immunity deal, he agreed to plead guilty to kidnapping Denise. Two months later, in December of 2017, he was sentenced to 20 years.

Meanwhile, investigators finally believed they had enough to arrest Denise and charge her with

first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder and accessory. The trial began on December 11, 2018, 18 years after Mike was killed. Because they had no physical evidence connecting Denise to Mike's death, the prosecution's case depended totally on Brian's testimony. Michita says that this was the first time Denise heard what actually happened on the lake. So he was in the water. I pulled off just a little bit to get away from him so that he couldn't

reach back into the boat. I didn't know at the time. I didn't know if he was trying to swim or I didn't know what was going on, but what I came to find out or initially realized was he was taken the waiters and the jacket off. He got those off and he swam over one of those stops and held on to it. He was panicking and I was panicking. He started to yell.

So I loaded my gun and I ended up circling closer towards him and as I passed by, I shot him. We're in the shoot ahead.

Everyone in the courtroom is learning for the first time what happened to Mike.

How Mike had been killed? There was absolute silence in the courtroom and there was absolutely no expression from Denise at all. And this was held against her that she seemed to be so cold and stoical when learning these dreadful traumatizing fact. But I actually don't think, I mean, people expressed their emotions differently.

“I think I don't think that should have been held against her. I can see why it was.”

But she didn't testify. We heard everything from Brian's point of view. We didn't hear a word

from Denise. The jury found Denise guilty and she was sentenced to life in prison.

Someone had to take responsibility and all the responsibility fell on Denise. She wasn't just criticised for being a murderer. She was criticised for being a sexually voracious woman and there was even some sympathy for Brian when people started to believe that it was the Eve who tempted the Adam. It was Denise using her sexuality and her feminine wiles have led him astray and led him to murder her husband. And one member of the jury

suggested, and I kind of agree with this, is that yes, she agreed that they would kill Mike. Yes,

“she agreed to taking the insurance money. Yes, she agreed that Brian would go out in the late early”

in the morning. But when Brian pushed Mike in the water, when he didn't die, when he grabbed onto the stamp and started screaming, what Brian did then he did by his own agency? He did not have the opportunity to consult Denise. What should I do? Mike had actually failed the test. He had not died. That was a sign that God did not want Brian and Denise to be together. So from Denise's perspective, it seems at that point that Brian was acting of his own free will. Now when Brian was asked about this,

he said Denise was there with him mentally spiritually. She was on his shoulder. She was behind him. He was doing this for her. But in legal terms, really, there's no evidence that she actually knew what happened on the late. Of course, that means she's still responsible for the murder.

“I mean, there's no question about that. But I do think that she should not have received”

a longer census than Brian did. Denise appealed and eventually her murder conviction was overturned in 2020. In a decision, the court wrote that she didn't assist or encourage Brian at the time of the murder. Her life sentence was overturned and she was resentenced to 30 years. Cheryl, Mike's mother, testified at the resentencing hearing. By this time, she was in her 70s. December 6th to 2000, my life as I knew it changed forever. There is a lot of fine journalists

and child manual amendment to have members and their search for us, children. I've never had

bad time to do. I've never had time to do things that long. Reporter Jennifer Portman has said, "If not, for Cheryl Williams, there's no way that we would know where Mike Williams was or anything that ever happened to him." She was the driving force. [Music] Makita Brottman's book is guilty creatures, sex, scarred and murder, and Tallahassee Florida.

Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadyo Wilson is our senior producer, Katie Bishop is our supervising producer, our producers, our Susanna Robertson, Jackie Sadgico, Lily Clark, Lena Celsen, and Megan Kineen. Our show is mixed in engineered by Veronica Seminetti. Julina Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal.

You can see them at this iscriminal.com. And you can set up for a newsletter at this iscriminal.com/newsletter. We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our

mystery, without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes

“with me and Criminal Co-creator Lauren Spore talking about everything from how we make our”

episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to things we've been enjoying lately.

To learn more, go to patreon.com/criminal. We're on Facebook at this iscriminal

“an Instagram and TikTok at Criminal Underscore podcast. We're also on YouTube at youtube.com/criminalpodcast.”

Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm Phoebe Judge, this is Criminal.