2837: The Methylene Blue Masterclass: Cutting-Edge Mitochondrial Support with Dr. Scott Sherr

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You just found the most downloaded fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. This is one of the best interviews I've ever done on supplements and cutty-edge supplement technology. It was so informative. We had Dr. Scott share on the podcast. He's a board certified internal medicine physician. He's also certified to practice health optimization medicine and hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

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it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs or training gear over at MindPumpStore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to MindPumpStore.com. That's it. Joy the rest of the show. God, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, guys. This has been this is great. Already, we're already having a good time. So just for the listeners, tell me a little bit about your background and what you do. Sure, from there. So I'm a board certified internal medicine physician.

Practice on the call of health optimization medicine, which is a, it's based on a non-profit, actually, that we help run. It's called health optimization medicine practice. It's a framework that optimizes health rather than focuses on disease. It's a, if you're a clinician, you want to look for a more training and a different perspective. It's really cool. And it's a, it's a seven-month-old certification for people. And so I use that as kind of the foundation of my practice. I'm also

specialized in something called hyperbaric auction therapy, which I've known and used in practice for many years when I was living in the Bay Area, actually, as well. And then I help run a couple companies, one called transcriptions. As a company that helps people right now on the longer path of optimizing their health. And I'm the chief of education outreach. I don't know my title just changed. It was something and now it's something else. But I do a lot of education outreach,

media, and a lot of teaching. I still have my own clinical practice. I do it most through my house in Colorado at this point. And I really try to kind of give people a navigation on, you know, some of the more difficult things that we're focusing on these days. Energy, stress, anxiety, sleep, immune system function, and how we can really help people now while we're on the longer path of helping people along term. In my experience, what I've met physicians who have moved into a space

that seems more preventative. Yeah. There's typically a story behind it, as you just land there,

did you? Oh no, yeah. So there's two ways this typically happens. The first way is not my way. The

first way is your doctor and the system fails you, right? The system fails your you or your family, and then they can't get help and they look for alternative things and they get into the functional

crazy mother fucking carer practice. So his name's Alan Cher. And he's a practicing carer factor for over 45 years in Long Island in New York. And so I grew up in his practice. I grew up, obviously, I was adjusted when I was born. And then I even went out as a kid in high school life, worked at his front desk. I was really good at collecting money. Because I knew that was the money I was getting for spending money and also for college, right? So I grew up very alternative

ly. And I didn't really know a lot about conventional medicine until I decided actually with his guidance to go to medical school. The idea being, well, I grew up pretty crazy. I kind of have understanding of that alternative world, least in philosophy. Then I was learning the medical stuff and then figure out what to do with my life. And so as a result of that, I kind of took the fastest path out of medical school you could, which is your four years of medical school, three years of

residency, which is still a lot, but that's the shortest. And then from there, gravitated towards creating my own integrative practice where I see people from all over the world using that health optimization medicine framework, along with using other tools and technologies and practices and

“supplementation and things like that. So that's the story. Do you still remember, can you remember”

recall when you realized you were growing up in unconventional medicine? Oh man, I mean, it was always

weird in my house. I mean, because there's always, you know, because in that time, there was no functional medicine. There was no really integrative medicine. It was just like OG, alternative health, chiropractors, really, that we're doing it. And so it was always something weird happening in my house or close to it, right? I was even talking to my dad. It was good. You actually, like, the story is that we have a very small podcast called the health optimization medicine

podcast and I ended up in my father for it. And he was telling me all these stories about my childhood about growing up and like he was in communes before he started the practice and like all this crazy stuff. And I was like, oh, this makes so much more sense. So, but some cool stuff, like, I remember being a kid and him taken off people from dairy and from, you know, from like sugar and things like that, you know, before it was popular in the 1980s, he'd take people off a dairy.

Their allergies would go away, their asthma would go away, like they could function better. And so I saw him doing all these crazy things back then. And it's kind of come full circle for me now. Because now I have my own practice where that philosophy is a big part of what I do. But now it's more a little more data driven. So I do laboratory testing and use a field call metabolomics,

which is this cool study of like small molecules of how the cells work. So, but I'm always,

he's still one of my biggest mentors. And I talked to him all the time. And he's always one of a big fan of the things that I do. Now, because you came from that and you saw things like that

“as early as the 80s. Yeah. Were you the pain in the astudent going through Western medicine?”

People were like, we're doing it, we're doing it. It was so weird because people got to pizza parties all the time. I'm like, well, we can pizza like this is medical school, right? And like it was, I was definitely a pain in the ast. Yeah. But also, you know, a part of it is when you're training, you just kind of put your head down and you train, right? So I'm like, it's schools, right? So there were times oftentimes because the thing about medical school was that like you spend like a

hot semester on anatomy and physiology. You do your dissections and all that thing,

which I was not very good at. That was not my thing. I was never going to be a surgeon. I had this

reputation being the oops guy like I'd absolutely break. You know, they were already dead, they were okay. So that was okay. But there were times when I was like, what am I doing? Why am I here? Because sometimes these very, very quickly after learning anatomy of physiology go directly to pathophysiology and disease and treatment, right? There's no like, how do you keep the body healthy?

“You know? And that's what kind of how I grew up with that philosophy is like, if you give the body what”

it needs, it's going to work the way it's supposed to. And my dad actually had this really interesting saying back in the early 90s. He's like, Scott, the most powerful drug you can ever take is the food that you eat. This is like 1992, right? Nobody was talking about this at the time, right? So he's very, very prescient or very whatever it is, you know? And so for me, it's always been like a mission to go back there and then this health optimization medicine framework that I use in my clinical practice that's

based on another mentor of mine and got that I work with now. He's actually the founder of the nonprofit and also a transcriptions his name is Dr. Ted Ochikoso. Dr. Ted is this like polymath brilliant dude and he created this framework and he's like, what if we can opt to my health rather than focusing on disease and keep people healthy? And not just looking at looking at really onset of disease or like what's that we have standards of care for like diabetes and

high blood pressure, but there's no standard of care for health, right? And that's what he was trying to develop. And so I signed on almost immediately when I met Ted in 2017 because it was like, this is it. Like this is what I've been waiting for is like some way to bring everything together. This is interesting. It's so, it's so crazy because it's so true. Chiropractors were the original alternative medicine practitioners before that even became a thing.

What were the, what are the strengths and weaknesses of of traditional Western medicine? And then what are the strengths and weaknesses of alternative and how are you trying to bring those together?

Like if I worked it in Baltimore at a place called the Shock Trauma Center. And if you can imagine, maybe guys have watched the wire before. Yeah, well, my favorite shows. Yeah, it's great show, right? So I actually lived in a building. That's like a cracked out building in the show that they re did. No, after where it's called Silent Point and kind of funny story there. But in Baltimore, lots of shock, lots of trauma,

lots of gunshot wounds. So you're going to shock trauma. And like most of the time, like even you come in, like with ridiculous, ridiculous things that you mostly live, right? I mean I can tell I'll just go quick crazy story. Like there was a lady that came in with a knife in her chest.

Okay. And I'm the third year medical student. I'm I'm I'm on call every three nights for 30 hours.

“Like that's what's called Q3. This is actually where I learn about hyperbolic therapy,”

interestingly enough. But so I'm called every every three nights for 30 hours for three weeks, like one day off. So the way that works is that you're just to kind of people give a sense. You work for 30 hours. You go home. You sleep for four hours. You wake up. You have dinner. You go back to bed. You go back and you have two regular days. And your third day is like that again. 30 days. 30 days. 30 hours. Okay. So it's crazy. But in the shock trauma center,

this lady came in. She had a knife in her chest. She was completely talking to us, right? No problem. But all of a sudden lost all her vital signs, right? And so if that happens in a trauma bay, what you do is you can crack their chest open right there without taking them to the OR. So they crack their chest open, open it. And I watched her heart just spurting out blood, every beat. And they actually were able to sew something onto her heart to stop it from doing that.

And she lived. It was the craziest thing you've seen, right? So we can do amazing things in a

Q-care. But we suck at almost everything else when it comes to the conventional system. Primary care, prevention care is okay in some ways. But they're not looking for keeping you healthy, right? They're just keeping you trying to find early set signs of disease to keep you from dying. Right? And there is, I think everybody needs to get a colonoscopy. Like, I think if you're, you know, male, female, you're over 40, 45 years of age.

Like, get screening tests can be very important because they can find early signs. Because most of us are just really unhealthy in general. And that's, that's the other issue. The early 94% of US adults are metabolically unhealthy, right? So it's only 6% are metabolically healthy. This is why I might have conjured become a big deal, you know, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. But in essence, I think what, what conventional care is really good for is acute and interventional care.

Now, aside from that, not very good in much else. We have to manage disease. They can manage disease okay, but they're not looking at trying to reverse disease, not trying cause. You know, try to get to the recalls of anything, right? So we're non-conventional medicine. So integrative, functional health optimization medicine, the things really come in as a cow can we,

look at the root causes first of all for sure. But even even in addition to that, how can we keep

people healthy? How can we optimize them at a foundational level? And that's really where I think

“things are going, right? I think that's what you guys are all about too, right? Which is like,”

let's take things out of that system. Because once you get in the acute care system, it's really difficult to get out. And I worked in the hospital for many years. I worked as a, as a hospitalist. Have you guys heard of a hospitalist before? No. So hospitalist is like your primary care doctor in the hospital. Okay. So your primary care doctor that will see you and that will send you to a specialist and like, you know, what a primary care doctor equivalent in the hospital,

a hospitalist does is be your primary person. And then if you need a cardiologist, you get a cardiologist, if you need a gastroenterologist and things like that. So I do that for many years. And like, like, it's okay. You know, it works. But, um, but it's like grinding people out most of the time where you find that you send somebody home, they're going to come back for six months later with something else, right? The system is not good at reversing anything. It's just good at managing. And then we have a

pharmaceutical system that's very, very good at keeping people on medications for the rest of their

“life. Because that's how they make all their money, right? If you have a blockbuster drug,”

I mean, Viagra not excluded, although now we can take Viagra all the time, right? You know, the problem, it's good for vascular health. This could prevent dementia and things like that. Or I was just at 18,700 feet at ever space camp. You can take it up there. It helps, too. Yeah. Um, where you walk around with half of an erection at this thing. No, that's not why. That's because again, we love for the brain.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think that, I think the conventional system is good at acute and and preventional care, but it's mostly a grinding system. I mean, I have friends of mine in the system. Like it's a meat grinder. That's what you call it. You grind people in. You grind people that. You only have 15 minutes with somebody. Yeah. You're done. You know? Yeah. Part of the challenge, uh, I think too Scott, just to give some, because I've, I've, for over the years of being a personal trainer.

I've trained so many doctors at one point. I had a studio, uh, I was down the street from a large hospital. I started, I trained one and I'm mixing, you know, they're referring each other. And I'm trying all these doctors and surgeons. And they're good people. They really want to help people. They let.

you know, treating people either through surgery or through medications. Part of the challenge

too is, uh, preventative care is requires more from the patient. It's not just take this pill, which by the way, the data on even people for getting to take their medication is pretty silly. Yes. But it's also just requires more. Like getting someone to take a pill versus change your diet, the adherence is a lot higher with the medication. So how do you work with that? Is it, do you get, probably get more of a self-selection bias of people who are willing to? Yeah.

So maybe I don't talk about that a little bit. I mean, I think what it was coming down to is that there's a lot of democratizing the information now, right? And so that's a really good thing, because now it's not like the doctor is telling you everything and that's it. Because 20 years ago, you just have the doctor to listen to. Yeah. And now then with then there was Dr. Google,

which was good, but also a pain in the ass because if you look and you see you have like a hang now,

you think you're dying of cancer. Yeah. And so you have patients coming out. I'm dying of cancer, dock because of the hang now or whatever, right? And now you have Dr. Chad, GPT, or whatever, right? And so there is definitely negatives to that because it becomes like information overload. Yeah, information overload. Exactly. But at the same time, it's more democratized so that you can really get people more interested in helping themselves. I think, and you're right. So for me,

“it's a lot of the self-selection bias. But what I found over the years is that you have to give people”

some glimmer that there is a different way to do that. Right? And for everybody that's going to be a little bit different. But the key and this is what's really important is that when you're working to optimize somebody's health, it's not likely to happen. It's not going to happen overnight. Okay? It's going to happen six months or a year later if they can stay on a path, right? So you need to give them things along the way to help them so that those bottlenecks are addressed.

Is the bottleneck energy? Is the bottleneck focus? Is the bottleneck street as sleep or stress? You can, if you work on those bottlenecks along the way, then it becomes a lot easier. And I found that the biggest two bottlenecks in the world for me is a clinician are energy and anxiety. You know about it because people want more energy and people don't want to be less anxious. Right? And if you can optimize the energy, you can make them feel better right now so that they

have more capacity more long-term to do the things that you want to do, like James or Diet, walk around the block even or just do something slightly different about their stress. But if they don't have enough energy, they can't do it. That's right. And having energies like is the biggest currency that we have, right? And we're supposed to make, so we make ATPR energy currency in the body, right? We make about 150 pounds of that every single day to maintain our

energy demands. But it's very difficult for us to do that because most of us, as I mentioned earlier, are not able to do anymore. 94% of US adults don't have enough capacity. The biggest example that I've been thinking about recently is black and white thinking. Our brains are the number two place that we have the most energy needs. You guys don't have the number one place? There's this liver muscle. We're productive. Oh, oh. Yeah, so eggs and sperm have the most

mitochondria. Oh, so that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And right after that is the brain, right? Okay. So if you're trying to think in like a nuanced sort of way, that takes a lot of energy.

“That's why we're also polarized. We love to be like, it's either, you know, black or white.”

It's nothing in between because energy demands for a nuanced kind of thinking are very, very detailed. Well, take, take us then to a metabolic health or mitochondrial health. I mean, you hear this a lot now in social media. Yeah. What are we talking about? And why is this, why is this even a big deal? I think that's the way we're seeing it, right? It's because metabolic health is mitochondria health. So people here at the word metabolic health or that, that term.

What that really means is that can you make energy effectively and can you manage the stress of making energy? So you guys know that we eat especially fat and carbohydrates because we need the electrons on those particular macronutrients to be processed by ourselves in this part of the cell called the mitochondria to help us make energy. Okay. So we need to be able to make energy. Right? And so that's not an easy thing for many of us to do anymore because along that process of taking

our food and bringing it down and bringing it into the mitochondria, there's a lot of steps along the way, right? There's the citric acid cycle, which is how it breaks down the food and then has things like NADH and FADH, which are these electron carriers that bring electrons into the mitochondria and they go into something called the electron transport chain, which has four complexes, aptly name 1, 2, 3 and 4, where the electrons have to flow through that and then as they're

“doing it, you make this gradient of protons, hydrant ions and you have to have oxygen come in and”

become the final electron acceptor. This is all happening, you know, millions of times a second

for all of us right now. We have quadrillions of mitochondria in our body. It's like a huge amount that we have and not only do we make energy, we make this ATP. We do it by allowing this gradient of protons coming back down. It's a 6,000 rpm motor that's in our cells, ATPase, the engine. It's making energy and then we make energy ATP, but we also make carbon dioxide, you know, which goes back

what are called reactive oxygen species or free radicals. That's great. If we have too many

“free radicals though, the system starts breaking down and so metabolic health is do you have the”

capacity to make energy effectively throughout that whole process that I just went by very briefly and then do you have also the capacity to manage the stress of making energy and 94% of us don't have that capacity anymore? Yes, to compare the 94 to the top 6% like and compare it from the perspective of somebody the average person who's like, I want to lose a bunch of body fat, I want to be in shape what compare those two groups like what is happening on like a

cellular level as far as like their ability to have success. It's their resilience, right? Because everybody's going to have stress. Everybody, even the people that are in top 6% of course are going to have stress, but what they have is enough capacity to manage both the energy production and the detoxification side of things and what happens over time is that the detox side of things especially gets really, really clogged up and if that happens the whole system starts breaking down

and the biggest reason for this is actually insulin resistance. So people have high blood sugars sugar is one of our substrates. It goes into a mitochondria helps us make energy, but it also if there's a shits on of it, you're also going to make more waste products, right? Make more reactive oxygen species and then what happens is that the mitochondria get overloaded

“with these waste products because you don't have enough what you need to balance as you need”

antioxidants to do this. Things like glutathione and vitamin C and alpha-poic acid and things like that, which over time get depleted and then you get into a place where you can't actually manage the amount of energy that's coming in and so the mitochondria start actually doing the opposite actually making less over time. And so you know this, it's not something that happens overnight for most people, but their insulin resistant, their fatigue all the time, they feel like they're

inflamed all the time, like they can't lose weight, their brain's foggy, they have mental health issues, these are all mitochondrial issues at their base. And the question is just why, right? You have definitely insulin resistance being like one of the major reasons. The other one is a

big one which is sympathetic activation, always being in fight of flight, always feeling like your

brain is on instead of having that parasympathetic side of things, because if you're always on, you're always releasing your transmitters and hormones like cortisol that are stressing the system too. So talk about now, this is 94% of the people and you get news from the doctor, you're not healthy or what I thought or you're recently motivated because you whatever reason I feel like I need to make a change in my life. And so I cut calories, I start hitting the gym five

days a week, I'm pushing sweat my ass off. That person ends up struggling. So explain why that is be, and I feel like this aligns so much with the conversations that we have in this podcast all time and we get a lot of shit for like telling people to do less. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I've been calling it the sympathetic spiral of doom for this particular reason, because people think they need to do more to get better as opposed to doing less. Right. And oftentimes

it's those people that go to the gym and then they crash for like three or four days after they went or they go into a sauna and they can't move for five days afterwards because their bodies already under such sympathetic dominance, you know, that fighter flight that running from the saber

to the tiger thing that we always say in medical school for at some reason, I don't know why we always

use the saber to the tiger. But who thinks about a saber to do anyway. But you know, that's what culture rewards, right? We all reward that hustle I grew up in New York and you know, the hustle that never stops kind of deal and in medical school we had shirts that said sleep is for quitters, right? Because it was in medical school. I mean, I mean, I told you about my rotation in the shot trauma, right? 30 hours every three days. It was intense, right? And so we

reward this stuff. But then what's so interesting is that as a clinician, you think people would realize when they're in this state, but they have no idea. No, right? They have no clue. They think that all I just need more stimulants are like, oh, I just need to do the gym more, like I need more coffee, right, or whatever. But then they realize like they do more and more, but they're not seeing any benefit, right? And so a big part of this actually is like, you know what, you actually have to calm down

your nervous system without telling them to calm down. We talked about this. You don't tell somebody to calm down because that doesn't work, right? But if you say, look, if we just downregulate your nervous system a little bit, throw you back into Paris, sympathetic, everything else is going to get easier. You know, but that's, it's a conversation and then it's giving them the experience,

“but the key here. And this is really important is that when you're trying to downregulate”

somebody's nervous system and calm them down, if they don't have enough cellular capacity, they're going to crash, right? Because you decrease our nervous system capacity. So you're trying to get them to relax, which was keeping them just moving, just getting them keeping them alive,

basically, and then being able to function the way they were. I'd a lady just a couple of weeks ago.

She's like, I was doing the molds and lime. My, my, my doctor gave me some stuff to calm me down, and I just went bam, right? She crashed, right? Because that was keeping her and so many of us out here,

stay on this sort of train? And then if you, you know, if you start taking the brakes off without

giving enough mitochondrial support, this is where the methylene blue actually comes up, right?

“Is where? Because that's what it'd been like, one of my biggest levers recently is like,”

if you can give them the support while you're taking the brake whip starting to put the brakes on, then that's the key. We have a term that we call the cortisol junkies. Yeah. That's that. And this is really hard to communicate to a person that's in the state, because they get this immediate reward from the highly stress. Yeah. Try telling somebody who's here, where you're to describing, who just did their circuit training class, and they get that rush afterwards of

completing it and that adrenaline and they go like, and then try being the person who's trying to tell them, that's not good for you. Like, piss off. I know how I felt right afterwards. It's really difficult to communicate that. I'd love for you to get into the methylene blue, like the history of it. We talked about this, you know, tongue and cheek. Like, where? Who's the

first person to realize it die? You had these types of benefits to it, you know, for the mitochondria.

Like, how'd you get, uh, uh, how'd you find your way towards it? So it's a crazy compound. It's very blue. It's been around a long time, um, but is absolutely a huge bridge in the work that I do, because it helps right now with the mitochondria function that we've been talking about. It helps with energy and detoxification at the same time. So I like, I like to tell, I like to say that our cells are like gasoline powered cars. We make ATP, but we also make that carbon dioxide, not a waste

product I promise, but people will think about it out of that way. I have friends that get very angry if I call it a waste product. Um, and then water, and then, of course, there was reactive

“oxygen species, right? That's what our cells are making on a regular basis. But methylene blue comes in.”

It helps with the energy production side, and it helps as detoxifying at the same time. So it works with energy and detox at the same time. It's called a redox cycle in that way. So the history of it, in the 1870s, 1870s, 1870s, so a long time ago, it was developed as a textile dice. If you were, like Levi Strauss genes, your genes were died with methylene blue. But at that time, you guys, if you had like a cellulitis like an infection on your leg, you would die, right? There is no antibiotics,

there is no antimicrobals available, right? So they were looking for compounds out there that could treat these kinds of infections because nothing existed. And so they realized that methylene blue, it actually got the name of a magic bullet at the time, could treat pathogens, could kill pathogens at high doses. But it would not harm the normal, the human host, right? And that was like the best thing ever that we could find because either they could find compounds

that we kill you and kill the pathogen to, which that's not very helpful, or they wouldn't be

strong enough to be an antimicrobial, right? So nothing blue was the first drug registered with the

FDA in 1897. So it was a very nascent FDA and it was the first fully synthetic drug, too. So it's not something that comes from nature directly. And that also gives it a little bit of like some controversy in the world of medicine and alternative medicine, right? Even with my dad and he uses it in clinical practice. But I like to remind people that synthetic things are not necessarily bad for you, just like natural things are not necessarily good for you. You can forage for the

“wrong mushrooms and dark. Well, I think the value of natural things is we have they have a long history”

of being used. This is a synthetic that's been used for a long time. Over a hundred years. Yep, but it looked like leech into somebody's wound, like how did this, like... So they were doing, they were doing cellular testing on malaria actually. And they found that malaria specifically, you know, us white people going down at Africa and getting malaria, you know, we would die, right? And so this particular compound, Methylene Blue, could give it very high

doses of Methylene Blue and it would kill malaria. And they sought in cellular culture. Oh, wow. And so then they realized what else can it do? So between 1897 and 1950 or so, it was like the premiere antimicrobial. And by the way, it's still fucking works. But it doesn't, it wasn't as sexy because you had penicillin and other drugs that came out in 1950s, which is very important. By the way, if you go to the hospital now, there's a condition now that they'll give you

intravenous, what is it? It's called Met hemoglobinemia. Okay. And this is a, this is a particular condition where your red blood cells can't carry oxygen. Okay. It's typically because you've been had an overdose or poisoning, like you guys know, like the Huffer people like Huffing Glow or Huffing Painting. That has something called sodium nitrite in it. And that is colorless and tasteless, but it actually prevents you from carrying oxygen on your blood cells. So Methylene Blue is the

antidote for that for Met hemoglobinemia. And it's also the antidote for cyanide poisoning. So if you're going to rush at any time soon, you know, you know, with you. Because what it does is the cyanide actually destroys part of the, those electron protein complexes that I was talking about. It destroys complex four. And so if you get Methylene Blue on board though, Methylene Blue does all these kind of

That's what makes it so powerful is that because so many people are walking around with

“mitochondria that don't work well, especially complex one of complex two, which are the main”

complexes that take electrons from your food. So if you've had chronic infection, if, you know, your diabetic, if chronic stress, pesticide exposure, so many different things can affect those for first couple of complexes and affect the capacity for Meth, for your energy production to happen. So short story with Methylene Blue is that between 1897, 1950, fantastic act of antimicrobial, it only had one major side effect, which you guys have all experienced. Blue, yes, blue, you're

in. And so there was actually even stories, songs in World War II. If you were World War II and you were shipped off to the Pacific, you were taking Methylene Blue prophylactically to prevent fungal infections while you were in the jungles of some of the, the tropical islands in the South

Pacific. And it was calling, they said going blue in the Lou, right, with all the English, all the English

people going blue in the Lou. So, but in the 1950s, when antimicrobials came around that were prescribed, it became less used in that way, although it works fantastically well, as an antimicrobial, and still does it. I use it that way now, especially for urinary tract infections, actually. Because Methylene Blue makes your urine blue, concentrates in the bladder. It breaks up biofilms, it's an antimicrobial at high doses. But at lower doses, around like four to about 25 milligrams,

it's a fantastic mitochondrial support. And we know that from the last several decades of research, there's a research route, the University of Texas Austin, his name is Francisco Gonzalez Lima, and he's got a lot of work on Alzheimer's models, traumatic brain injury, stroke, and others looking at how Methylene Blue concentrates in the mitochondria and optimizes mitochondrial function. And it does this very effectively and very, very quickly. It's not like you take Methylene Blue

when you wait, oh, I'm like a month for it to start working. It starts working. Yeah, it should be within three to five days of taking it. If it doesn't work at that dose, you go up on the dose, right? And so the higher doses, like a milligram per kilogram, which is like 50 to 70 milligrams, or a little bit higher, maybe you have the two milligrams per kilogram for an acute infection, that is a fantastic way to use it. But for the most part, I'm using it at lower doses, four to 25 milligrams on a regular

basis for the whole spectrum, for people that are super sick and need that bridge that support, but also on the endurance side, because it increases aerobic capacity. It works, can work just

like oxygen in your cells too, so you can maintain aerobic capacity for longer. And the first time

I realized this, I was working with a patient this Southern lady, I can't do her accent, but she's like Alabama, and she's like, "Dr. Scott, I can't stop working out with this stuff because it's so great." I'm like, "Well, what's so great about it?" She's like, "Well, I can maintain my heart rate up for longer without having to stop." And I work with a guy that did the lead bill race, the ultramarathon where I live in Colorado, and he cut three hours off his time, using methane

“blue with 32 milligrams every four hours. So how are you measuring the success of the dose?”

Like, so again, how do you figure that out? And then we know, like, "Oh, this is working well, we don't need to go up or like, how do you figure that out?" So a lot of it's going to be how you feel, right? But then you can also look at metrics like heart rate capacity, like a you maintain metallic maintenance of heart rate for longer if you're doing aerobic work. There's some studies that we did on dogs, specifically looking at lactate threshold, and so that you reach your

lactate threshold later if you have methane blue on board, because it's able to maintain aerobic capacity for longer. So a lot of it's going to be subjective, which means that how do you feel when you're doing certain things and then looking at various markers, but like what's weird about it is that you can give somebody methylene blue in the morning, and they sleep better at night. Well, why? Right? It's because they're getting better at mitochondrial support during the day,

and then you see their HRV go up at night as well when they're sleeping. It's the same deal, because you can see how when you give more mitochondrial support, the system starts being able to calm itself down. Because it's now like, okay, now I'm having enough support here. It's not trying to fuel with stress hormones and stress all the time. Right, exactly. And so it's the mitochondria able to relax. Like, there's this thing called the cell danger response.

When she guys have probably heard of where the whole system goes into this sort of shut-down hibernation mode, especially the mitochondria, if there's too much stress in the system, the your cortisol people, right? What happens instead of the mitochondria making more energy, they actually make less. But if you can flip it out of the cell danger response,

“then it starts being able to make more. And that's why I was, you know, I've been shocked”

over the years. Like, I had a guy, a colleague of mine, he's like, I've had anxiety on my life. I took nothing blue in a went away. And I was like, oh, well, what's up with that? What really? Because what his anxiety really was a representation of was mitochondrial stress. Right? And when we are giving him more support, then he's mitochondria able to flip back over into a more healthy way of optimizing energy production. Now, there's a lot of things

that are marketed to us today about mitochondrial health, an example, red light therapy. Is there added benefits of pairing it with this? Like, I mean, and so like, what would what, what if I, you were giving me all the things to do that? What would a stack or all of those

can be there. What I would say is there is a significant synergy between medley and blue and red light.

“That's been well described because medley and blue can donate electrons basically help with energy”

production at all the complexes, but especially complex four, which is called cytochromoxidase. And red light therapy, about 680 nanometers, well established as donating photonic

electronic energy to complex four as well. And so that combination is very powerful. So you

you can take your medley and blue for 45 minutes or an hour later, for 45 minutes to an hour later, you go outside in the sun, you know, red light in the sun, everybody, you don't have to have a panel. Or you can go in front of your panel if you have one, too. That's a great synergy. Now, at higher doses, like you can use that as a, as a compounding for infection as well, for especially for viral infections. So you give your medley and blue higher doses, you go out in the sun. This is what I was doing

four or five years ago without telling anybody that I was doing it and seeing significant benefit and a lot of my collection, you know, colleagues would have. So end time I grew up also for viral infections. Yes. And I viral too. Wow. Yeah. Now, metal and blue is also an MEO inhibitor. Yeah. It's actually a quite strong one. So let's talk about that for a second. Yeah. So MEO is a monomy and oxidation inhibition. Yes. So that, what that means is that nothing blue prevents the breakdown of an orphaned

in serotonin and it higher doses dopamine. Okay. And so that means there's more of that around. But it's dose depending. So lower doses, methane, blue can do a little bit. Higher doses are going to

“do it more. But it's something you have to be aware of. Yes. You have people that are on things like”

SSRIs and and you know, serotonin are to re-uptake inhibitors. These are antidepressants. Yeah. You don't want to combine them. So you don't typically want to do that. The risk is very low to actually do it. But I recommend doing it with a practitioner. Okay. The risk that they talk about all the time, something called serotonin syndrome, which is not something any doctor has really ever seen in their clinical trials. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did a methyl and blue with

Tessel Fenson, which is a peptide, well, you could buy as a peptide, which is a nor up and effrin serotonin dopamine re-uptake inhibitor. Okay. And so and I just started sweating like a like a mania. Okay. He started sweating. Like real bad. Yeah. I mean, you would do a hospital. Like drenching. And I said, I went to hospital. So I'm like, oh, is this serotonin syndrome? It might be. So went there. Had the shivers a whole field. And then it was a few hours later. I was okay.

How much methane blue are you taking? I've probably 16 milligrams, but the Tessel Fenson was I don't remember what that must've been a pretty strong. Yes, I know. Yeah. You do the high dose of testific. Yeah. You're upset at you. High of the dose. That's right. I must have been it because usually, the only time I've, the only studies that they've shown causing serotonin syndrome with methane blue have been IV methane blue. Oh, which is a high dose. Yeah. Which, you know, it doesn't

have to be high, but it gets the, gets the body really, really quickly. Right. And then when people start taking methane blue, even at the low doses, one of the things that most people say that they feel like slightly funny, like a little bit like off, a little bit different, that's usually because of the Nourpen effort and dopamine and serotonin, but the Nourpen, the, the dopamine doesn't happen a much, I didn't know much higher doses of methane. Yeah, but yeah, that was again,

that combined two things. So this is just the where, because it works, it actually does work.

Yeah. And so you want to always be careful with things that work and combining it with the

things. Yeah, but I have the integrative psychiatrist that are winning their patients off of SSRIs of the world, SNRIs and using methane blue. It's not what just going to say. Yeah. So because here's one of the other things, and I don't even know if we can necessarily talk about this, but I know a lot of people who use methyl and blue isn't anti-depressant because it lifts their mood. And what is mental health issues like depression really at their core? It's a mitochondrial issue.

Right? I mean, we know this. It's a, it's a gut issue. It's a mitochondrial issue. You have all these books that like fix your gut and your depression goes away. Optimize your diet or start exercising and depression goes away, right? So there is a, there, we know 100%. Like what I went to medical school, I learned that if you were depressed, it was a serotonin deficiency. Yeah. Yeah. And that's completely bullshit. There's no evidence at all. But you know, actually there's more evidence that

there's a GABA urgent aspect to here. So GABA is our primary breaks of the brain and GABA deficiencies associated with depression. But low serotonin levels are not, right? And so we know that the mitochondrial are the big party, right? So understanding how you can optimize mitochondrial function is key, understanding why the mitochondrial understress is also key. It's a toxic exposure. It's a synthetic dominance. It's medications. People are taking, is it infections? Like there's all these other

“things that it can be, right? So you have to think about the roots. We talked about the root causes.”

But then if you just focus on optimizing mitochondrial function first, and the additional benefit with nothing, because you do have some mild increase in serotonin and an orphaned effort as well, right? But it is dose dependent. How does it compare if you, and I know like it sounds like you uses to get the client going, jump started, and then of course nutrition and exercise is key, right? For sure. Now, how does it compare, though, ahead to head with that? And I just a better diet

and strength training, because we know that's obviously incredible for mitochondrial health. So how does

it compare? My goal always with people is like let's get you on some methane blue if you need it now,

and then over time, as you optimize your diet, as you optimize your lifestyle and exercise, you need it less. You know, I was talking to our mutual friend Thomas Delau, or just a couple

bigger day, more stress, you're traveling, if you're well optimized, you don't need to take it every day. But if you're traveling, let's talk about an airplane, right? Airplane, your pressurized on a plane to 8,000 feet above sea level. So, as soon as soon as that cabin door closes, you get tired. You want to take a nap, right? Because you just became hypoxic all of a sudden. Yeah. And for me, when I live in Colorado, it's glorious, getting on an airplane and coming to the

“other places that I go, is it's mostly sea level? Yeah. So my, or, you know, my ring loves me, right?”

Because I'm always, you know, at sea level, and I have 21% oxygen in the air.

But I live, it's about 17% oxygen in the air. When you're on an airplane, you're about that, too, about 17%, 18%. And so, that's a hypoxic stress almost right away. So taking methyling loop before you're on an airplane is like transformative for people, right? Because even if you're mitochondrally healthy, right, that's still significant stress. So you use it as like a pre travel stack that you can use. It is transformative. Oh, wow. It's all of my patients. It's a great hack.

That's so great. I'm going to use that because I travel, uh, we all fly a lot for the company. And I always don't feel good for monoplane. And so I never thought to use methyling blue before hand. Yeah, before and during, depending how long the flight's going to be. So I have people dose every, it's the half-life, it's about four hours. So if you have a flight that's 10 hours, you're dosing every four hours while you're on the plane. You just want to modulate your dose depending on

sleep, right? And then you also want to try to, you know, meet the times that you're going to go to. But then you can also use GABA-ERGIC things, you know, we have other things that we use to help people.

“Well, here's what you're saying about a modicondria. I think it now, um, lots of data supporting this.”

Yeah, people might not even wear, but there's all these studies now that they're coming out like creatine. They're showing. It's got anti-depressant effects. Why? Because it helps with ATP production. We know a ketogenic diet. Sometimes, as it's a fact, not because there's magic in the diet, but because producing ketones is just a cleaner, I guess, for lack of a better term, way of producing energy. So if you've got kind of dysfunctional modicondria, suddenly you feel like,

"Oh, wow, it feels so much better." Well, it's because you just switched energy sources and you have something different. So, um, yeah, this is, this is like, it looks like medicine is kind of moving in the direction. Yeah, where they're all looking, okay, what's going on with the mitochondria? It's, you know, it's called cellular medicine sometime. It's called mitochondrial medicine, but it's absolutely happening. Because we used to think, you know, these mitochondria, you know,

when I was just my daughter's 15, she just took science and she learned about the cell and then you have a nucleus and you have the mitochondria, you have the gold you bodies. There's just one mitochondria in that cell that you learn about. Then you learn that there are some cells like we're talking about eggs and sperm that have thousands neurons, thousands of mitochondria per cell. And they're not just making energy. They are, there's a whole new world of talking about like mitochondric medicine.

You're going to be hearing? Oh, wow. And it's going to be all about the mitochondria are these gating and sensing organs in your, in your cells. You're nucleus? Yeah, they're kind of important, but they're not as important the mitochondria is what we're actually. I mean,

obviously, it's where all your DNA and everything. But then also, as Dr. Ted likes to always remind

me, like, where is the brain of your cell? It's not your, not your nucleus. It's actually the cell membrane itself. The cell membrane itself is sensing everything. I decide what to live in,

“what not to live. Exactly. So the cell membrane. So that's why we talked about phospholipids.”

We're talking about, you know, oxidative stress because you can see all the signs of this in the lipid membranes as well. Then you, you know, of course, the transfat arguments and all that's thankfully those are gone for the most part. What's the role of mitochondria's functioning cancer? It's a big one, right? Because if you, if you think about cancer, cancer is an end-stage process. That's happened because of poor terrain or poor foundational health, right? If your immune system

optimized, like we're making cancer cells right now, all of us every second of every day. But our immune system knows most the time amazingly to get rid of those cells, right? But cancer cells are just trying to protect themselves. This is the crazy thing. You know, there's all these ideas of, you guys are like the mean gene like Richard Dawkins stuff. But like the ideas that all of our cells are really just trying to protect themselves and do what they're supposed to do. And if they

need to protect themselves because they're toxic exposure, because there's, you know, sympathetic activation, they're going to do what they need to do to try to survive, right? And that's what cancer cells we're doing, right? And so, and a big part of that is the mitochondrial aspect of this, right? Because mitochondrial function, if that starts going down, the whole cell starts going down to. Because if you can't sense how much energy needs to be made, you can't sense what you need from

a resources perspective. You can overcompensate or you can undercompensate, right? And this is the thing about, you know, what mitochondrial do is that you make new ones all the time, but you're not making them like denover. They're actually being mitochondrial fission. So you're actually making new ones out of the ones that you already have. And so, yeah, so my kind of job is making the photocopy of a photocopy. Exactly. And they start to get worse over time. Yes, exactly. Wow.

Well, did you, did you work with hyperbaric chambers, start your kind of fascination with mitochondrial

health? It did, actually. Yeah, 100 percent. Because I realized what you're doing in a hyperbaric

environment is you're flooding body with the huge amount more oxygen. Yes. And that sounds great and principle, right? But what that does is, revs up your capacity to make energy if you can,

the hyperbaric therapy works is by creating huge amount of oxidative load, huge amount of

reactive oxygen species in the system. But what if you can't tolerate all that, right? The idea with all that ROS is that you're creating an impetus for stem cells to get released. The immune system to get activated, kill bugs, to do all these good things, to decrease inflammation. But if your system can't tolerate that, then you're going to be in a world of hurt, or you might get some benefit, but you're going to go back to the same way you felt before. This is what I kept seeing

in hyperbaric in medicine. Like, I actually got disinvited from a conference back in the day. Because my the title of my talk was going to be, "Please don't put them in the chamber." And I love hyperbaric medicine. I think it's because sometimes it doesn't, but it sounds like it's far more beneficial for somebody who's metabolic healthy than it is for somebody who's not. Right, or to at least try to optimize for like three or six months to get the foundation on board.

And that's where that health optimization medicine became a huge piece for me, because I was

“I would seeing people, and they weren't getting better. Like, I'd like, you should get better.”

Like, you have an infection. I'm treating it with hyperbaric therapy. Like, they should get better, but it wasn't. Like, or they were getting a little bit better, but then they just get worse again, and relapse. And I was like, "Well, this came down to understanding cellular metabolism, understanding energy production detoxification, and then how could I help them?" Well, I could use this foundational framework called health optimization medicine that takes

three or six months to get them better. Work on that, then get them on some methylene blue with which would be really great as a support. And then also working on optimizing their nervous systems, or downregulating their stress response. Because, and it's the other thing, right? I don't actually just learning about this a couple days ago, where there's some of the anti-depressants, actually, are mitochondrally dysfunction, they make them mitochondrally dysfunction more.

Because I found out, like, early on in my career in, and using hyperbaric therapy, that's not people on certain anti-depressants just would not get better. Just would not. I was like, "Why is it on Symbolta? You won't get better on using hyperbaric therapy?" It was because it was destroying mitochondrial function, right? And so I found out over the years that if you can really focus on helping people now, and then giving them a ground game,

that I often say get 60 or 70% better first, and then let's get you into the chamber to get

you that next 30% more. There's other reasons. If you're doing performance or recovery, there's other reasons too. You can just go into the chamber tomorrow. Or if you have an acute issue. But in essence, my practice is kind of developed like, "Okay, hyperbaric therapy is great,

“but if you want to see long-term benefit, you need to get 60 or 70% of the way they're”

anyway." And then if we do that, do you need to be in the chamber, and then we can have that conversation, right? I use hyperbaric therapy all the time still. But what I'm using on my ground game for people is like, "Okay, that's optimized." Much more complete picture. Yeah, yeah. Were you guys one of the first ones that chose subscriptions to use methylene blue or to work with methylene blue? We were the first company to make a commercial product with methylene blue,

okay. Back in February of 2020, so just about six years ago. Wow, and it exploded. Yeah, and it's so interesting about it, is that before us, you had to go to a chemistry company or somewhere to get it, and it was very difficult to find good quality stuff. So we were the first, and it took us about a year longer to launch the company in 2020 than we anticipated, because that long defined a good source of it. Really? The problem with methylene blue

is that when you make it, it's often, it's made in the lab, and it could be contaminated with heavy metals. Like lead, mercury, cadmium, and arsenic. Is that often possible? Unfortunately, yes. Even so if you look online now, you can find it everywhere. We were the first company, the only one in 2020. There was like six companies in 2024. Now there's over a hundred companies

that are making it now. But the problem is that the quality is all over the map, and it's not very

good. And so there's something called USP grade. So if you online now, you're going to online Amazon. I don't recommend you buy any supplements on Amazon, but especially methylene blue. There's a lot of counterfeits. It's so much counterfeits. It's just crazy. Yeah, it's greatly millions of dollars with, so I always tell my patients do not buy your supplements on Amazon. But anyway, so methylene blue specifically, this USP grading it's called. That's supposed to be pharmaceutical

grade. But the problem with that is that people don't need, they just put that on the label, and then we've tested a lot of this stuff as well. It doesn't mean USP grading, and that means it's more contaminated with heavy metals. And the liquids out there are probably the worst offenders because their potency is nowhere near what it says on the label. Like one of my biggest pet peeves is that you'd say, "Dr. Scott, I've been taking methylene blue 10 drops a day for a week,

or whatever," and I feel like shit. I'm like, "Well, how much you've been taking? I'm 10 drops a day. I'm like, "Well, how much is that?" I'm like, "I don't know. 10 drops." I'm like, "Ben, what do you tell me it doesn't work? What are you telling me? It's making you?" And then what are you taking, right? And then, so liquids are really difficult. It's like a milligrams per like dropper. You don't know exactly how much it is, and then it gets on your countertop, and you almost have

“your wife try to divorce you. So the key, this is a good trick. If you get methylene blue on a countertop,”

it does stain, buffered vitamin C. Oh, well. It's to save my marriage at least three times. In my laundry, on my sink, so it does work. But the challenge is finding good stuff is really difficult.

can prescribe. It's Scott, I'm not just saying this because we work with you guys. Actually,

“this is one of the reasons why we work with you guys. I've tried three different”

separate from troscriptions, so three other methylene blue providers, and yours was the best, has been the most consistent, best experience. So it's got to be that. It's got to be that, I wasn't getting either the right dose, or there was some other stuff in there. Yeah, one of my favorite stories is a guy a couple weeks ago. I'm actually a couple months ago now. He's like, yeah, doc, I bought this methylene blue from a source that says there's many

United States, and it took three weeks to get through customs, you know, the times. And this is the thing, if you're buying it on Amazon, it's still funny how things come back like full-circle, right? Because really in the pandemic, about six months in, there was this article from the New York Post. It said biohackers drinking fish tank cleaner to reverse their age.

That's great. Perfect. Well, because methylene blue were killed.

Again, methylene blue is in fish tank cleaner. Yeah. You don't want to drink fish tank cleaner, please don't win a Darwin award, everybody. It's very highly contaminated with heavy metals. But it was a great clickbait. That same paper, eight months ago, did a whole article just espousing the beauty of methylene blue and had an affiliate relationship

“with one of the shittier ones on Amazon. Oh, it was like, of course, like that's how it's going to go.”

It's anti-paracitic as well. Yeah, anti-paracitic. It's anti-microbial in general. So we use it for people that have parasites that have dysmyosis in their gut, that have, you know, overgrowth of bacteria. How does it kill? How is it anti-paracitic? And anti-microbial? Do they just not survive the electron transport? What's that? That's actually a little bit different. So you guys know hydrant peroxide?

Yes. So we can buy it at the store, but our cells make it as an antiseptic.

It's how is in a part of our cell called the lysosome? Okay. And when we have an infection, or the cell is trying to kill itself, because it's under stress, and it's better to sometimes die than to try to survive, it'll release hydrant peroxide. So methylene blue releases hydrant peroxide to help kill these kinds of things. And what's cool about it actually is it doesn't work like a nuclear bomb as an antibiotic wit, or at any time microbial. Like if you take,

you know, a moxicillin, or augmentin, or something else, like these are nuclear bombs to your gut. They kill it all. Yeah. Yeah. And what methylene was more selective than that, it doesn't do it. It really does have a more selective capacity. So you can give it in the acute setting, and not worry about causing that nuclear bomb kind of picture in the gut. But for the most part, we're using lower doses, like using at 4/8/16 milligrams. 8/8 is the, is the, for me, the sweet spot.

That's where I find where I feel the best with it. So all is just going to say, like, so you use your fish clear, and then your horsety warmer. It was that time. It was that time. Yeah. So what we do with with quality is that we get our methylene blue from a manufacturer in Japan, or Korea, South Korea, for those of you who are wondering, um, I'm not going to agree. Um, I have my RCEO boomer. He's, he's married to somebody from South Korea, but they just say they're from Korea. And I was like,

wouldn't they say South Korea, like, no, wouldn't be obvious that they're from South Korea, like I didn't like it. Anyway, so we get it from Korea and Japan, and then when it comes in, we get it with a certificate of not or a certificate of analysis. It has USB grading. But then we test it again. So the problem in the supplement industry in general is that they're trusting. You talked about creatine earlier. Like you dribbet here about that creatine scandal. No.

creatine gummy scandal. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Creatine. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They came with a, yeah. Yeah. It came with a CFA from the manufacturer certificate of analysis that said, creatine in the gummy is right. So you have these cup and companies, because we have to regulate ourselves in this world as you guys know, nobody else is doing it. That they just take that, you know, CFA from that other company from another country. I don't care if it's China. I mean, things getting from

China is fine. If you have a CFA that is optimal and you test it again. So with all of our products, we take it that next level, and we really say, look, yes, this is a trusted manufacturer, but we trust and we verify. And we've had to even throw out thousands of dollars worth

“of stuff from our trusted manufacturer over the years. Yeah. Should you need to take a break on”

methyl and blue or is it something you take daily or take it every other day? Like what's the best way to use it? It depends on where you're using it. Right. If you're using it for a bridge because you have chronic fatigue and you're, you know, you have on immune conditions and you have severe mitochondrial dysfunction, you have long COVID or other kinds of conditions where you have you're you're in a pretty bad place or you're in a pretty significantly compromised place. Then taking it

every day for a little while or maybe even for months can be okay. Like if as long as you're keeping the dose, if you're taking about 30 milligrams or less, I usually say you don't have to take a break because it's super low doses. If you're taking over 30 milligrams a day, you usually take at least one day off, if taking over 70 milligrams a day, two days off a week. But it's pretty rare to have people on those days. How would someone know when they're taking the dose that they took

too much? Like what do they feel? Well, like, okay, I got it back off. It's so person dependent. What I find is that what I like to do is tie tray people. So like with the just blue that we have a transcription, it's in a tricky form, which is like this is all belongs in which classically you could be dissolved on the mouth, but it can also just be swallowed. Right. And nothing blue is very

it, you can use it in the IV, and almost all of it's going to get in the body, of course it's an IV.

“There's very few compounds that are like that, actually. But so with methane blue, the way we”

developed in these trophy forms, you can take a quarter, which is 4 milligrams. And then you try that for a couple of days, try it in the morning on an empty stomach. See how you feel. You don't feel much, then go up to that. Go after about three days, if you don't feel much, go up to eight. See how you feel. You're like, oh, so what's your experience? How do you feel when you take it? Oh, sharper. I just have a little bit more energy. You know, verbal fluency is better. I use it before big interviews typically.

Yeah, right. And so in your case, I would be, okay, you tried eight. Let's try 12. Any difference? You're like, you know what, at eight, a little bit jitterier didn't feel as, as I felt like it was a little bit too much, you know? And then usually it's like, usually it's an extension of how you felt when you felt good, but maybe it's just a little bit less good. You know, so. And so often, oftentimes it's not like a more as better kind of thing. Yeah, oftentimes I find

between eight and 16 is the dose for most people. Yeah, if I go up to 16, it's a little edgy. Yeah,

“how I would describe it. Yeah. And that's common. And that's what I feel like I'm usually around”

four or eight milligrams, actually. When I get above that, I get on the edgy or side. But sometimes what I'll do, if it's a long day, is all combined, it was something that's going to take off the edge at the same time. But what theory? I use one of our other products. I use like our GABA projects. I use our TROCOM, actually, because that one has, it gives you some exotic effects of anxiety, decreasing, takes off the edge at the same time. It also doesn't make you feel tired. So I like that combination.

What's in that? Because I saw you brought that today. What's what is in the common one? So GABA, what else? So TROCOM has something called B3 GABA. Okay. It has Kava CBD and CBG. Now, the thing about GABA, you guys probably know this. But GABA is our primary relaxing, the brakes of our brain.

It calms things down. It's always in balance with another neurotransmitter in the brain called

Glutamate. Glutamate is our excitatory neurotransmitter, and Glutamate actually gets converted into GABA in the brain. So that's 80% of your neurotransmitters, just those two. So you heard about serotonin and Norton after the dopamine. That's like the minority of us talking on. And the classic Glutamate overload situation is like when you go to a Chinese restaurant and have MSG in your food. And so you have, what do you feel? You have headaches, tremors, you're irritable.

The problem is that most people look, what's that? The problem is that most people are walking around with those things. Irritable, you know, mood instability, because most people walk around GABA deficient. Yeah, GABA deficiency is associated with anxiety associated with depression when you're talking about that earlier, associated with insomnia, mental health issues. But if you go to a doctor, you know, like a conventional doctor, like one of my colleagues, and you say I feel depressed or anxious,

they're going to give you an SSRI, right? But we talked about how serotonin is not related to depression,

“right? But GABA is. But the thing about just, well, could you just take a GABA supplement, right?”

GABA itself is too big of a molecule to get into the brain. So if you take GABA on its own, and you feel great, you have a leaky brain. Wow. So your blood brain barrier isn't that great. Isn't doing what it's supposed to do. And this correlates very dramatically with a leaky gut. So I've had patients that I've worked with over the years. They're like, hey, Doc, I'm taking GABA, I feel great. I'm like, okay, let's do something about that. And because it's

diagnostic, basically, if you have, and so you, but you optimize their gut,

they seal it up and the GABA supplements stop working. Now B3 GABA is a smaller. B3 GABA is different. So B3 has a vitamin B3 attached to the GABA itself. And B3 has a transporter. Thought it. So B3 hits the right, hits the right. And then in the brain, it hydrolyzes a breaks apart. So you have mild amounts of B3, which is nice in an AD, and you have GABA. So that combination is great because now you have the GABA, which is relaxing you, but you also have mild activation,

so you don't feel tired at the same time. And so you get that combination is great. And then we have COVID in there too. And so the cool thing about how we developed this is Dr. Tatooze, our, the founder of the company, this brilliant pharmacologist, dude, what if we created a way to enhance the GABA system in the most comprehensive way possible? So we think about the GABA receptor small biochemistry lesson that promise it's a cool one though. So GABA itself is the receptor has places

where things bind. It has where GABA binds, that's where GABA would bind. But it also has other places where things bind, like alcohol, for example, or a benzodiazepines, like adivine and zanx, or sleep drugs. The problem with those, the separate sites where GABA binds, that's where the GABA receptor to where GABA binds, is that they can bind very tightly and enhance GABA to bind very, very tightly and then deplete GABA in the process. So you drink alcohol, you wake up two hours later feeling like

shit, that's because all that GABA was depleted very quickly, benzos and zanx, all these things they do the same thing. And so you don't want to give something that just increases the amount of GABA to bind without giving a source of GABA at the same time. So he created something called an obligate pair of system or an obligate pair where you bind something to a separate site to the

or GABA itself. So in case of trocom you have nicotine vitamin B3 GABA and you have Kava and Kava

“binds to a separate site on the receptor. Makes you feel drunk or you guys have had Kava before, right?”

But Kava itself is also something that can cause tolerance and addiction, just like alcohol just like benzos, just like sleep drugs. Because it deplete GABA in the process. And so instead what we do is you have a combination of the B3 GABA and the Kava together. So the Kava binds and you have the B3 GABA going in. So you have the GABA there too. And so you have this nice combination where you get no tolerance, no dependence, no withdrawal if you and you can take it as needed and you

don't feel tired at the same time. What's the dosage you look like for somebody? So the trocom dosing is the B3 GABA, I believe it's 50 milligrams, 5 0 and then you have Kava which is 100 milligrams. Yeah. And you have CPD and CBG in there as well. Yeah. So just a small amount of CBD and CBG. That works on the endo cannabinoid system, the body is on internal cannabis system. And there's a guarantee in there. What is that?

Is there a guarantee in it? It's in our sleep it's not asleep formula. Okay, so what is that?

“So Agerin is from the flygarric mushroom. Do you guys know the Amanita Musgari mushroom?”

I don't trust him by the way. Oh, they're just like me and it right out the gate. I don't know. What's his name Paul Stamets? I've listened to quite a few of his podcast but he talks about the association there with Santa Claus. Yeah, it is. Yeah, there's a great. If people are listening, they can look up there. There's a New York time piece on the idea that this particular mushroom, the Amanita Musgari mushroom is the reason why we have Santa Claus.

Because as the stories go in Siberia, this mushroom would grow wild and the reindeer would eat the mushroom because they liked it and it also made them trip pulse. And then the people are like, oh, what's going on here. And then they realize that eating the mushroom itself is toxic. It's neurotoxic but if they dry it, you become less toxic. One of the ingredients in the mushroom is called Ipetenic acid. That's neurotoxic, neurotoxic. It sees me. The other ingredient is called agron.

An agron is a long acting on a GABA receptor. Oh, binds to where GABA would bind. And so we combine that with another, another modulator of the GABA receptor called anokyol, Hanukyol, Hanukyol, which comes from Magnolia Bark. And that combination of anokyol plus agrons in our formula called trozy. Along with six other ingredients that are working on sleep. But working on the GABA system is really, really important because, again, most of us are deficient. And if we could put the brakes on for people,

they start calming down their nervous system. And we talked about mitochondrial function. The combination of supporting mitochondria was something like Methylene Blue Short Term. And then less long term, if you get more optimized. And then using something that puts the brakes on, like your calm and your Z here for me, then suddenly people can feel like, oh,

“that's what it felt like to not always be in stress mode, right? And doing it in like a very”

intentional, you know, safe space if you want to call it that. Because when people have like,

their nervous system calmed down for the first time and they actually get reactive anxiety,

to not being stressed. Wow. You guys have probably seen this, right? And somebody's like, so, like, working at such a high level, stress wise, and you bring them down, they're like, "Coluchia, I'm supposed to be stressed and they give very anxious about it." So it's nice to have this, like, more of like, "Now here, trocom, just take it in front of me." Wow. 15 minutes later, you're feeling better? This is what it feels like to not be in stress mode, right?

Wow. Because it works that quickly. Because that's better used in the mouth, the trocom, because it's going to work in about 5 to 15 minutes. Oh, wow. And there's a little bit of tingling. You'll know it's working because the cover from the trocom is, is the cover is a little bit numbing. Oh, yeah. And see you a little bit of numbing in your mouth while it's happening. And then you feel like you're just go down. Wow. You know, it's, I love it. And I'm, I tend to be on this

stress side of things more too. And like, if you have like a lot of meetings, like a lot of shit, like,

you know, you just bring it down, you know? Sounds like an awesome, I mean, we're always trying to teach

people. I think this is actually one of the missing links, too, for a lot of people with tech today, and the amount of stuff, social media, all the things that we're on, late at night, like getting people to have like a bedtime routine, sounds like this would be like an awesome supplement to take post dinner, so much better than anything. Why don't you know, take a talk about it as a replacement for alcohol, right? And like, and I talk about it as the pair of sympathetic edge, really. This is

something that, like, Thomas and I were talking about on stage once, Thomas and I was like, if you can give people, especially in the performance world, like, like, let's give you an edge. It's called the Paris sympathetic edge, right? Because if you have this edge, you're going to perform better with your workouts, with your training, with your recovery, everything, right? And then like, well, what does that mean? Like, well, let's drop in down your nervous system. Well, how do I do that?

Well, let me show you what it feels like. Give me some calm. Let me give you some Z. And then, oh, this is what it feels like. And then, oh, I don't need to train as much because I can recover better, right? I see the benefit. My sleep gets better. And I talk about this a lot with my athletes. It's like, well, and as soon as you finish your workout, what are you doing? What are you doing? You're

you know, or you're going to, like, give yourself 10 or 15 minutes just to calm down, right? Because that's going to be a huge difference on how you're going to recover and see the gains, right? You guys know, you don't make your gains in the gym. No, it's a factor. We'll see the best athletes right if figure that out, how to be able to get into that calmed pair of sympathetic state, the quickest and most effectively. And while they're actually doing the work, right? So I have a

friend of mine. He's like the only guy that was a professional running back. He was on the eagles, and he was also professional. He was Olympic skier. Only got to do both. And he told me like,

when you first was doing skiing, he doesn't like Metallica. And like, you know, hard core shit.

By the end of it, he was in Beethoven. Beethoven, right? Beethoven, Chopin, like, things that were relaxing. Because you don't need, like, we don't need to be more stressed.

“We need to be, this is not only for working out. This is for, like, if you want to perform better,”

you're job, like, you need to drop down. You can get to amped even for athletic performances. What happened to me? Oh, hitting in the past where I was so psyched that I would just gas out so much faster. They've been practicing. Well, they've done cool studies. I've shared it on the podcast before that, like, Justin's referring to, where they compare, like, a Steph Curry and with some other random people. And there's a game winner, like, free throwy has to hit. And they measure

his heart rate and his heart rate is, like, resting heart rate for the average person, like, in the middle of a game where he's been running up and down a core. And it's like, that ability

to be able to do that is so unique in that school. And I just call it, I call it with my patients.

I call it a superpower. Like, and I remind myself this on a regular basis. Because if you can just, if you're so sympathetically dominant, you don't have as a lot of what's called sympathetic reserve. Right? So if you're already going in like this, you don't have a lot more you can do, right? But if you're coming down, if you're coming from a very low place, the amount of tension you can put on a muscle, not of stress you can put on the system. That's where the change is going

to happen. That's where you're going to see the major, like, long-term benefit, right? Well, what do your products have something called cortisol? And is that from cortisol? Yeah. Okay. So what's the benefit of that? Yeah. So you know the cortisol is mushroom. I do. Yeah. Corticeps has been known for a long time in Chinese medicine is something that helps with energy, helping with detoxification is a lot of different compounds in the mushroom.

There's one particular compound in there that is my favorite compound other than methylene

blue at this point. And it's called cortisol. And cortisol is the most active portion of the cortisol's mushroom. But it's only zero point zero three percent of the mushroom by weight. So a very small amount. And what's very, very cool about it is that it's about a hundred times more potent as an antioxidant anti-inflammatory anti-viral and an increases deep sleep. And you take it at night typically. And it is transformed my, my personal health. I'll say that because I,

I'm traveling a lot like you guys, right? And whenever you're traveling a lot, you're at high risk you get in sick. And I just don't anymore, you know, knock on whatever way I have here. But I don't. And my kids, I have a little bowl of it at my house to call it the green stuff. It's green colored. And anytime anybody's feeling like they're getting sick, they take it. So you can take it

“prophylactically. We have something called tromune, for example. That's what of our products that”

I take prophylactically if I'm a place that, you know, I have a higher risk of getting sick at a lower dose. And then if you feel like you're coming down with something, or you take it immediately. Like the soon as you start feeling like you get something, like you take your rest of your, your stack of store. It's not the only thing you take. But you will see a shift in that whole progression, like my wife who listens to zero of what I say. She's also a physician. She's one of

those people that gets a cold, you know, she gets the usual cold, then she gets a cough. It doesn't go away for like a month. And I can't sleep in the same bed as her, like it's the, you know, it's a whole thing. But if I can get her to take the tromune, right, when she's starting to feel sick, she doesn't get that whole thing. She doesn't get that cough. And like, it's better for a relationship, right? And better for my sleep scores, too. And so that's such a cool thing about it. And it works

like a denocene in the body. So a denocene, yeah, denocene has a lot of different functions. It's an denocene. The main people with the way people think about a denocene oftentimes is related to blocking the endenocene receptor. You guys are drinking something on a regular basis. Yeah, caffeine does a coffee blocks the endocene receptor in the brain. It makes this feeling more wakeful, right? And so what methods to what court of step and does is it works just like a

denocene. So it gives you sleep pressure. So it increases your deep sleep, too. So you take it at night, it increases your deep sleep. You will see this if you measure your score as well. And at the same time is giving me anti viral anti inflammatory and anti-inflammatory and anti-inflammatory. Can you take it the same time as the Z in the cold home? Yeah, I won't give it. Okay. So this is like a last three months. I'm on your way mission to like, I'm ordering tracking like trying to

I'm shooting for I haven't seen a 90 score ever. I got mine. I got one today. Okay. Okay. So give me sea level. Give me the the the whole stack of what I should take in a day to try and optimize this. I want to know what's a meth one blue. It's so variable right? These everybody's going to be different,

“but what I would say is that you need to have a good enough support from mitochondrial support during”

the day. You have to make sure that you're having times when you're perisumpathetic during the day, too. Yeah. So you're going. So the the most beautiful nervous system is when that dynamically oscillates between sympathetic and perisumpathetic throughout the day. But the majority of your time

Yeah. Um, this is why you see like older, you know, tribal cultures, they hang around most of the day

doing nothing, right? And then we're just relaxing. And then they, you know, then they're hunting, like, then they're fishing, like, then they're having sex or whatever it is. Like, but like they're

“doing things periodically in sympathetic. So the best way to get the best sleep is have the most”

regulated nervous system and have the most mitochondrial support. But then you're thinking about, okay, three hours before bed, I'm not going to have anymore food. I typically you don't want to have a lot of food before you're going to bed. Good, three, two, one rule. Right. Do you got that, right? And then you want to be winding down your nervous system with those three hours. Right. And so how are you getting more parisumpathetic? What are you doing? Are you? No TV, no TV, no phone. Yeah. Or if you're

doing it, I mean, you know, most people are going to do some of that, at least you're wearing protection. Right. You know, not condoms for your face. Like, you know, we've walked this with

your blue mask face. Like, yeah. I should we should call them my condoms for your face.

I don't know about that. That's good. Um, I should tell my friends that have those companies. It's called condoms. Anyway, so yes, you're protecting your face. You know, there's also the idea that you have foot receptors in your skin. So in general, it's about trying to keep the lights dimmer, you know. Um, and then trying not to be too activated before bed. You don't want to do too much heavy exercise, people are bad if you can. You know, like, I'm not a big fan of people doing like

cold plunges and shit before bed. People do this like they go back and forth from hot to cold at night.

“I don't think it's great for most people. I think if you're pretty well optimized, you can do it,”

but if you're not, it's probably going to be too stressful to release all those neurotransmitters. And then you're thinking, okay, now 30 minutes before bed. What am I doing? So you guys remember Pavlov, the dog, and things. I talked to my patients about salivating for sleep, right, which is like, you do the same thing. And every single day, no matter where you are, no matter what time zone, for at least five to ten minutes before you've got a

bit every single time. And try to go to bed at the same time every single time. And then if you're stacking in the products, which I do, I'm taking about our trozy, a half of that, and a half of our trombune combined together. Okay. Because that's typically about a 30 minutes to an hour before you go to bed. Yeah. You can use them as a turkey. You can put them up in the mouth and let them dissolve, or you can swallow them. You know, obviously it's an empty stomach, so it's pretty well

absorbed both ways. Yeah. And then, you know, you go to bed and you go to bed the same way every night. Yeah. The same sleeping position, the same cover, the same sound machine, the same eye mask, like it sounds like a lot. But in the end, it's not at all. And I appreciate you framing it this way, because this is what we talk about on the show all the time. And this is even what I've communicated, I was just yesterday we're talking about this. And there's nothing that had so far that I've been

able to do supplement wise or anything else than the things that you listed first. Like that is

getting my good exercise in, making sure that I come down for shutting all the stuff down, being consistent. I can go four days in a row of that, like you just said, perfect consistency. And I'm scoring in the 80s. As soon as I stay up in extra two hours later, just like that, it doesn't even matter if I had the supplement stack, that disrupts them off. So I'm doing those things. Yeah. Now, I want to know what to do. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we also like to do,

this is how helpful. Maybe not for you, but for those who are listening is that Dr. Ted is, you know, again, the guy that I get along with my saying is from these days, likes to say that your day starts when you go to sleep, not when you wake up. So make it the priority. Yeah. Instead of it being the last thing you do every single day, make it the first thing you do. Isn't it ironic that we, we talk about this too all the time of the show, is that we've put

so much, there's so many books about morning routines and stuff like that. We, we, and we, yet, I would argue that your night routine is far more important, way more important than your morning, but we just don't talk about that. Don't talk about it. I'd be sleep is, it's the afterthought. Yeah. And then this has, it's been a big deal for me. I mean, I was in the hospital working for years and getting called at home and like, I just wasn't getting, you can, the thing about is,

if you're relatively healthy, you can tolerate this for a while, until you can't. Right. And then you start falling off that cliff like, why can't I recover as well? Why is my mood all over the place? Why am I tired, but why are it all the time? Like, well, because your nervous system is shot and you're might a conjure and need more support. And you can't just think you're going to take a supplement, and that's going to be the end all be there, right? That could help you, and it could be a good start,

or it could be something that, you know, in addition, you add to the other stuff. Yeah. Most people are going to go the other way around, which is like, they're going to want to pill for us, right?

“Yeah. I want to supplement. And that's what I, I tell my patients all the time. I was like, look,”

I hope over time, you don't need as much of this, but like, let's get your nervous system working well or better. Like, let's get your mitochondria more supported. And then over time, as you're getting your diet, better off optimists, lifestyle, better optimists, getting out of a shitty relationship. Like, you know, getting a sleep divorce, you know, you guys know sleep divorce, right? Half of US couples, I think, live in different, let's sleep in different rooms now. Is it half, about half

years? Wow. Yeah, back in the 40s. Yeah. They had like one bed for sex, or they changed bed, I don't know. Yeah, like, but there's, uh, there's also just another hack for people is just getting a separate set of covers. You guys, we have sleep eight. So my wife, which blows my mind, is that 90 degrees, I'm over here at 55. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So you have different, different covers, different mattresses, and you're not like, you know, trying to steal the covers from

your spouse and partner. That's another way to do it. Yeah. But like, they've actually done studies,

Even if you think you're sleeping all night. Well, yeah. So you're not getting good rest.

“And so you have to start off the basics. And so when I work with patients, it's like, what, what,”

what's the, what are the basics for them? It's either sleep, stress, mitochondrial function. That's all happening at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. The questions where you start, but almost

always, if sleep is the issue, you start with sleep. Yeah. Because if you can get them sleep

better, everything else is going to get better. This is why I love, uh, these tools that we have now like ordering is because I think for years, there's a trainer over 25 years now for us, um, you were playing that guessing game so much where, and I'm sure there's a major individual variance of what each person feels like with a score of an 80 or whatever, but at least gives you a, like, a metric that you can go, and it's very clear to me. There is a clear difference between, you know,

two, three days in a row of 80 scores versus a 67, and it's said, and it is, you can feel, you can, and so I can see that now, and then I can see as I apply these habits and routines, like what a difference I make. Yeah. It throws you's been great because it has eight different ingredients in there. Yeah. The problem with mostly bays out there is that they're just going to

“trash your architecture. You know, so your sleep architecture is the idea that you have to go through”

various cycles while you're sleeping. You have four stages of deep sleep. You have REM sleep. You're supposed to do this every 90 minutes, and then in the beginning of your night, you have more deep sleep in the end of night, you have more REM sleep. And this is typically how you guys, if you're looking at your REM you're seeing this. But if you take something like THC, if you're taking it like that's trash is your deep sleep. Yeah. Alcohol trash is all of your sleep, right? And then

you know, Benadrill or other even melatonin, they're going to give you some Benadrill's going to do nothing good for you. But melatonin will give you like a little bit of help. It's not going to do the whole thing. Yeah. So people tell me like melatonin doesn't work for me. I'm like, yeah, because you were just taking melatonin, that's one of like six different sleep signals. Like what about GABA? What about identity? Like what about serotonin or melatonin together? Like you combine these things together.

Yeah. That's why trousy, trousy is so powerful. Yeah. Because it has that comprehensive support.

Yeah. And that I always tell my patients like, look, I want you to, if you're not sleeping,

that's the first thing they gotta figure out. Yeah. Because if that doesn't get better, nothing's going to get better. Yeah. And this is something I've learned over the years, right? Like you can give people expensive therapies and like go to an hyperbearing chamber is something. But if they have sleep at me, it like doesn't fucking matter. Oh yeah. Like or if like if they have terrible stress,

“it doesn't matter. Yeah. And so like don't waste your money. And like I tell, and that's why I get”

disinvited like don't waste your money on this great technology. If it's, if you're just going to be doing the same thing that got you where you are. Yeah. Well Scott, I appreciate what you guys do. Because I'm, I'm pretty hyper aware of how sharp I can be because of what we do. Yeah. So, you know, if I didn't, you know, have conversations with people or do a show with my partners every single day, I mean, it wouldn't make that big of a difference. But I need to be sharp. And so the

methyl and blue product you guys make, that's like one of my favorite things. And it definitely improves my ability to just do this. So I can't wait to mess with the sleep stack because I'm like so into this right now.

I've been tracking, so it'll be a fun thing to tell me how it goes. Yeah. Yeah, I totally will have never

scored in 90. So it's yeah. Well, I only get 90s when I come back down to sea level. You know, I gotta be safe. Yeah. When I'm in Colorado and I come down and I sleep in a hotel room, even if I've sold myself like shit, I still get a 90, because my HRV goes up. Because I have more oxygen around. I also that's how it typically goes. But yeah, I mean, I love our products because they, they really do serve a purpose, which is they help you now while you're on your path. And hopefully

over the long term, you need them less because you're more optimized than doing the things. But we're all getting older too. And we all have more stress on us at times, you know, sleep stress because you have a bad night of sleep, right? You know, or you're on a travel, you're going traveling or whatever it might be. And so what I love about our company is that I'm a physician. Like I do this shit for a living. Like I'm working with patients. I work with lots of my colleagues that do this all

the time. I see what's working. And you know, my colleague Dr. Ted and I, we've seen what's working for over 20 years. And we know that one sleep stack is not going to work for somebody else and somebody else. And then we have these trophies that you can tie trades, you can take a quarter, take a half, you know, like relegated to a capsule and like the figure I had take out like half to the stuff and figure out if it works for you. And so trophies are great. They're fast. They're bio-available.

And we have a whole non-profit organization that trains practitioners on a different way of doing all this. So you don't have to be in, if you're a physician and you're listening in your conventional doc and you want different training. Like we have that for you. Like it's, and that's why I feel comfortable talking about the products. It's like because we have a whole ecosystem for people to educate them. And then I say this with absolute truth. Like if you don't mean, mean my supplements,

our products going forward. Great. That means you've been well optimized. And you don't need them as much. Awesome. Well said. Thank you so much for coming on this show. This has been awesome. Yeah. Appreciate you. Thank you guys. It's been fun. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB [email protected]. The RGB Superbundle includes

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