Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 109: Project Artichoke

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Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> Hello! >> And welcome to rewind with Karen and Georgia.

This is that show where we recap our early episodes with new case info, and old feelings. Today we're rewinding the episode 109, which we named project Artichoke. >> Oh yes, this episode came out on February 22nd, 2018. >> Let's listen to the intro of episode 109.

[MUSIC] >> What did you say? >> My favorite Murdoch, this is my favorite movie. >> I love podcasts. >> Thanks everybody.

>> Hey, we decided to start with song every episode. >> Do you like light jazz? >> So do we. >> [LAUGH] >> Wow.

>> It's getting more uncomfortable at the top of the show. >> The more, the longer we do it. >> Every time I hear our intro's as we're doing them,

“I think of the person in a car with her friend who's like,”

"You have to listen to this podcast. "Just please listen to it, Mom, you're gonna let it." >> Right. >> And then the opening comes in and it's like, "It gets better, it gets better."

They do the song, they always, it's like funny because it's always so uncomfortable.

>> It's funny because it's so bad you don't want to listen to it, and that's what they call Irony Mom. >> Mom, stop judging me. >> Mom, stop gripping the steering wheel like that. >> Can I tell you a mom story?

Please, I'm going saga of my relationship with my lifetime relationship with my mother. >> It's always for life with those women. >> For ever, they say they're just there all the way holiday. >> Oh my God.

>> Until they're not. >> [LAUGH] >> So depressing. >> My mom's mom lived to be 104, so I've got a fucking wild career role. >> Yeah.

>> That's really heartening. >> So I told her, I sent on me and on to my family being like, okay, we're playing the Orfium on, you know, in March and LA, you guys, I want you to come. It's like a big fucking deal, you know?

It's like LA hometown show, the Orfium's a gorgeous theater. I'm like excited. It's so good. >> And my dad wrote back, oh be there, you know, plus five. >> And this, you know, this person, of course we're going to go.

“And then my mom wrote back, literally, this is all she wrote, what time?”

>> No, I'm saying what time, because it was a question right. >> What time? >> That was time, period. >> Yeah, what time? I'm saying it as it was written, and you know that was her inflection,

you know that was her. >> And I know that's has 71-year-old's right email, you know what I mean, like, they don't. >> It's just get any letter out that you can't hit son.

And called and left a voicemail and said, I won't have long distance, so call John if you need to pray. >> How was she getting hold of you? >> Long distance isn't a thing. >> I didn't get any more.

Did she mean cellular service? >> I don't think, no, I don't think she knows that everyone has long distance. That's the thing, this isn't fucking 10, 10, 3, 2, 1, and even more. >> Mom, I'm calling you on a calling card, so I have to make this quick. >> I only have seven minutes left.

>> Oh, Jan. >> Janet, Janet, come on. >> Standing Ovation at the orphanage, she goes if it's not Pastor fucking bedtime. >> What time? >> What time? >> What time?

>> What time? >> What time? >> What time?

“>> I think really what you're saying is please Georgia, when you communicate with the family, get really specific.”

>> I think so too. >> Just let's get organized in these emails. >> So, it's my fault. >> Yeah. >> That you're playing me or a family.

>> Hey, guys, we're playing me or a family on March 16th, hopefully you can come. It's not sold out as a. >> I don't know, but I release some tickets, so it might not be completely. >> I don't know. >> Hey, look, I mean, if you're interested in looking into it, I don't know.

>> You don't have to, I mean, do your thing. >> We feel like you've given us enough of it. >> We don't want to make you do anything. My family on the other hand needs to fucking be there. >> They need to step up.

>> What have they done for me? >> Now, you know that my father actually, my sister called me along the same line, and my father called her and said, when he heard we were playing New York, he said, "Let's go down and be there for that show." So, my sister's like, "Oh, my God, Dad wants to come down."

It's a big deal, because it's hip-soul screwed up, so he walks like an orangutan. >> I get it. >> You see that.

“So, my sister's like, "So, I think we're going to come down," and she, my sister's getting”

all excited, whatever, and then I said, "That all sounds great, you know, we'll make it all work for Dad." And I said, "But you do know that we're coming up back up to San Francisco in the fall."

And the second, I sent the message of, "There's a possibility," and this won't be the

last show that you possibly could come to. >> Yeah. >> My dad goes, "Oh, forget it." Just immediately, immediately, bales on the plan. >> I want him to come, guys, it will be like, "Our families are there."

>> I know. >> I might Marty and your dad could hang out. >> Oh my God, my dad will just shout over Marty's head. Could we talk about our double date with your dad, please? One of the most romantic evenings that I've experienced in a while.

>> Fucking, he was down here, and Karen, she, the she, one of those, you don't have to do it. It's totally fine if you don't want to. I know it's weird, and it's like, "Do you guys want to go out and be there tonight, of course, like, yes, it felt like we had just gotten off, like a nine-day tour together.

>> Yes. >> Like, hey, how about you make more plans with me? >> No, you guys don't want to see me, you know, it's one of their killgarrers, but please come. Please come.

>> Oh my God, it was the best. We went to fucking fancy pants. >> Moose one, Franks. >> Which is like, the fancyest thing.

>> My dad always went to a special occasion.

>> He's obsessed with the moose one, Franks. >> Love it. >> We went there, he also has great memories, because we went there, I think it might have been 15 years ago. And I was with some of my friends, one of whom was my friend, Kevin Sacha, who decided

he was going to drink whiskey neat as his drink. So everyone else was ordering beer and wine or whatever, and he orders that. He basically orders a double shot of whiskey, and my dad goes, "Jesus, do you have a gun fight in the morning?" And then that was like, "Legend for a while?"

And when my dad said, "Make the reservation." I want to go to, he kept joking about it where I'm like, "Dad, if you actually want to go to Mr. and Frace, we can." He's like, "Well, I wouldn't like to go there," and then he goes, "Remember we went there and your friend was drinking all that whiskey?"

I was like, "Yeah, for someone who drinks that as much as my dad does, it really stood up to him that my friends were doing whiskey shots." >> Love it. >> Little did he know that that's all I drank, constant. >> It was so good, and I'm like meeting someone's dad, and like, this is why you're

this way. You know what I'm like, not even like, he didn't do anything, he said some funny shit, just to be like, "Oh, this was what we were raised by, okay, this was good to know." >> Yes. >> And then I could see you getting embarrassed when he said certain things, certain

things that I didn't give a shit about. >> Well, there was points where he was talking directly over Georgia.

Like, Georgia would go, "Dadda, duh, and he would just," and then I finally, and I

was mortified, and I realized, "Oh, he can't hear her," because it was really not embarrassed.

“>> My dad has such bad firemen hearing that if you have to have -- >> Well, over 70”

year old hearing. >> Yeah, it's over, but also all the bills. That's why he started telling you guys that story, but all the bills going in all the houses every time there was a fire. That's how the bills system was set up in the fire houses in San Francisco.

So he -- the bills just were going off all day long. >> Oh, why? >> Oh, I see what you're saying. >> So they basically, like, all of hearing damage from like 60s to the 80s, or whenever they put in their new system.

>> Like, I get it. You said it's -- you were like so embarrassed about it, and I don't care, and totally under so it's going on. >> Well, it just -- I didn't want you to think he was a blowhard, because he's really

would start it and look up and Georgia be like, "Oh, I'm trying to ask him a question."

>> I didn't love it. I just can't sit in silence. >> There wasn't much. >> There wasn't.

“It was actually -- it was really, really fun.”

>> Yeah. >> Then, and I adored him. >> Okay, good. >> Adored him. >> Yeah.

>> Now, he's really an American classic. And just a good time. >> Yeah. >> There are a few people that don't have fun with Jim Kilgarov. >> No.

Jim is our favorite. >> Unless you were, keep America make America great again, and then he'll tell you to take care of you. >> Yeah. >> You're dad and my dad are not going to get along.

>> We'll just make a no-hats rule. >> He can. >> And everybody will be fine. >> Okay. >> Great.

>> Do you have any? >> Yo, yeah. >> Corrections corner that has needed to happen since the moment the last episode dropped. >> You've practiced it twice, so far, because it's so unfair. You practiced it twice at the Salt Lake City shows over the weekend, which were fucking awesome

and fun and things like Salt Lake City. >> Yes. >> Thank you, Salt Lake City. >> So much fun. >> What an amazing weekend.

We had already just had so much fun and Cleveland and Columbus, like we were just -- >> Yeah. >> Every show is so fun. >> And it was like our last show is on tour until Europe and it was just -- it was great. It was so fun, it was so gorgeous in that city.

>> Yeah. >> So, but the interesting thing was, we actually did a show Thursday night, which we almost

never do, so the episode had dropped that day.

So we were real-time with the podcast. >> Absolutely. >> So I got to do a basically a real-time hours later, corrections corner, explaining that yes, in fact, the reason that Georgia didn't hear about the tree trimmer murder, the Matthew Hoffman guy that had all the leaves in his living room and that creepy story.

>> Then it happened in November. >> And there's like, how do I not hear about this? >> And I was like, you know, why you haven't heard about it? Because it's so fresh off the process. We'll actually -- and in truth, it had happened in 2010, in November of 2010.

“So I was eight years off, and that's why you hadn't heard of it.”

And I actually went and looked at the -- think that I still had the article on my reading tab and I opened it up like, I bet you this is one of those articles that has a current date, but then they're re-quoting, they're saying lie I made up to myself. >> Yeah. >> Nope, right there.

It was -- the article is from 2011, reporting back to a couple of months before. >> So how do you think one time you put in 2017 on accident, and it came -- no, it's purely I wanted it to be. >> All right. >> I wanted it to have just happened.

>> It was so excited, like, the fresh murder, like we always do old shit, it's going

to be like exciting. >> Yes. Like with the way the murderer, you know, community is with the way people tell us stuff, the way Twitter is, if there was, like, it just felt like to me, like, I'd stumbled upon a thing that I found first, which is insanity when you think about, like, how quickly those

stories go up on the face, what do you think? >> Yeah, but how quickly people share things. >> One person will, like, tweet us about it, and then you just will hear about it again. >> Right. >> So I could see that.

I got so obsessed with those leaves, that everything else kind of went faded out around that. >> Pretty fucking great. >> I mean, that was great. >> Yeah, it was great.

>> It was a fun experience, sorry, you had to, I'm done apologizing for it. >> Yeah. >> This is the third time, third and final, if I can did it live to everybody. >> Everybody about it again. We're taking that upside down.

>> We're going to take it down. >> It's the last episode. >> Stephen accidentally deleted it. >> That's right. >> Yeah.

>> So I hope everyone's happy. But no, you know, I'll be better at checking dates and everybody was really funny. The people who did post on Twitter were trying to be so taxful and light about it. It was like, so I don't want to be this person, but you're a fucking decade off friend. >> It was just like, "Oh, man."

>> Well, it happens. >> Can't get it right. >> I wanted to shout to shout out, "Oh, God, what am I fucking DJ?" >> Yes, you are. >> I am.

>> Didn't you know? >> Yeah. >> You're DJ Jackson. >> One of the gifts we got, of course we got a ton of stuff in Utah because everyone's warm in and they just like craft like, not everyone deserves, they're all warm in.

Their wizards and so one of the things we got was like a beautiful, there was two earrings and two necklaces that I found out it's called Quild where you take a piece of paper

“and you turn it into like a flower or whatever the fuck?”

>> Yeah. So this girl named Mandy Lee took pages from my sweet Adriana and made us gorgeous jewelry out of it. >> Gorgeous. >> And so you can buy it at Art See Heart See Botique on Etsy and see it.

And so I was looking her up. She also did net that adorable line drawing or like stick figurey drawing of small form faction of us in a band and you and I are playing with Elvis on the drums.

>> She made that too.

“So she sells mugs and T-shirts and should have that art print as well as my sweet Adriana”

Quild jewelry and like she does, the Quild jewelry is like her thing and she does a ton of Harry Potter book pages. >> Oh nice. >> So I know a bunch of people who are going to like, yeah, it's like really pretty fucking jewelry and then also is from my sweet Adriana, which is, there were little strips

of paper on the back like it would be the thing that the earrings were like pressed into or whatever. And then there would just be a strip of like my sister Vera said, it was like these lines from me. >> I love it.

>> I love it. >> And I mean, we get so we're sitting amongst a pile like post Steven stopping by the PO box picking up boxes like fucking cool shit gifts. >> Someone, someone drunkenly accidentally went on it eBay and drunkenly bought six packs of true crime trading cards.

>> Yes. >> Only the find that in their state bought six boxes of packs of trading cards.

So such as each of the box, I don't know how many are in here, but it's amazing.

>> A ton right? >> A ton. >> Yeah. >> I'm just, it's just, we're so lucky. >> It's like this is the box they would sell at the store.

It's so cool. >> It's really cool. >> Also, this is another additional crash on the corner that somebody pointed out that we weren't just talking about the Terminator and Robo Cop, but you would also fold in in a little bit of total recall into that story.

>> I wasn't even going to correct that because I feel like that's not, none of that's a mistake. It's just fucking fake and it's how this, what did you say to the podcast? You said someone tweeted you and was like, I hate to tell you guys, but you're talking about two different movies and you said, like, you tweeted back, are you new?

>> No, no, no, no, it was like, it was basically a guy who, and I'm sure he was a family part of it. >> But he was, yeah, he was just going, they were talking about this, but then they actually turned it into this and then this, and they never stopped.

It was like this, basically, it's never, they never acknowledged it or even knew it was

happening.

“And I just wrote back, you must be new here, because when doesn't that fucking happen?”

It wasn't current corrections quarter that thing, it's because like, we just fucking kept going. And I believe you and you believed in me, I could see it all the way. >> I might have been a little bit of men and black in there too, for oh, you know? >> Here's the thing, we can't wait to hear your podcast and how great that's going to

fucking go. >> And how zero mistakes, how you fucking made, let us talk on the cuff. >> Let us fucking talk. >> And one of you has whiskey. >> Oh, I just also wanted to say, I just want to give a public formal apology to my

dog George, who, did you see this, Stephen? George, you're pretty private. My fiercely private dog George, who doesn't want to be a part of this podcast anyway. I did a little video of her, because she always drinks my fucking water in her. >> She didn't just drink, you made a video where she basically, if dogs could double flip

you off? >> Yes. >> She fucking did a walk by drink out of your mug. And then Karen, drily going, that's mine. >> That's mine.

>> Best.

“>> And it's only a four second video, I highly recommend, if you want to express yourself”

in any way, do it under five seconds, people really appreciate it. >> Totally. >> But she looks right at me, and then when I say that's mine, she wags her tail and walks away. >> Yeah.

>> Because she knows what she's doing. >> She looks supposed to be doing it. >> She looks supposed to be doing it. >> She looks supposed to be doing it. >> She looks supposed to be doing it.

>> She's very cute. >> But then I'll be feeling gorgeous. >> So it's like. >> She's a lovely lady, I like that dog because she looks different. She's drinking the water, her ears are all long and flat, and she looks like a hound.

>> But if she hears a squirrel in the backyard, then her ears flap up, and she looks like a lab. Like she just changes constantly. >> She's like Ted Bundy. >> Sometimes she wears a really big turtleneck, and then sometimes she wears a mock turtleneck.

>> She's a real fucked up, that's what got her. >> But she ended up becoming a Twitter moment. And then so all these people that's all of these moments, and let's guys are like, "Oh, George is famous. I saw your response.

What this is fucked up?"

>> I know, I was, well, the first, whoever sent it to me first, I thought they were

making a joke. >> Yeah. >> And so then when I looked at them, it was like, "What the hell, like, what is happening?" Because I don't understand how, I don't either. >> The whole moment of age I've got, it's like under just for you.

Well, I mean, while I'm sitting here with Elvis, petting him, and all these been doing his whole life, it's trying to be fucking famous on the viral. >> Go viral. >> He's like, "This fucking bitch comes in off the side." >> Yeah.

>> She's very mad. >> She's not talking to me. >> Well, this will write her down the set of stairs. You know, he did that once with a dog. >> Really?

>> I found a stray. I brought it into my backyard. I lived up the staircase, and I went in to get some food for the stray. It was like, like, George, like a dog that size, and then I came out to like squeeze through the door to bring the dog the food, and Elvis broke through the door, and the dog was at

So this jumped on the dog's back, wrote it down the stairs, and chased it, wrote a dog that was just chased it out of the yard. >> Wow. >> And he's like, "I'll take that food, please." That's mine now.

>> Oh, what a good boy. >> Okay. >> And we're back. >> We're back. >> I'm trying to remember, remember your dad coming to the live show.

I remember my parents coming to live shows.

My sister's still never been to a live show, which is, I mean, and I call her on the phone.

>> Should I call her, and just be like, "Listen, let's talk this through." >> It's so my sister and I, that she doesn't want to participate, and I won't ask her to. >> Yes. >> And I won't expect her to go above and beyond for me, because I would never expect someone

to go above. >> But beyond for me, you're my own fucking sister, you know? >> Yep. >> Of course, you're not supposed to have needs. You're the little sister.

>> Yeah. >> You're lucky to be in the room. >> Should be so happy, if I said, "I really want you to be there. It's so important for you." Like, why haven't I been vulnerable enough to tell her like how, I bet that would make her feel

really good. If I'm like, "I don't care if you're there, you don't have to come." >> You're so right. >> It's nice.

But I'm doing it for her.

She's doing it for me, and we're both not doing the things for each other. >> Well, just, I think that she would get a real fucking kick out of what she sees when she's there. >> Absolutely.

“And I'm sure she's, like, my life is what it is, therefore, I'm not going to be like trying”

to push in where -- >> Right. >> I mean, I can completely see what you're saying, where she's just kind of like, if you're not going to ask me, I'm not going to go and vice versa. >> Yeah. You don't want your sister there.

>> Yeah. >> It's very sisterly, though, because that's just history, that's just like you anticipating her telling her what she thinks and feels and reacting from there, which was what we were raised to do. >> Yeah.

Next time we have a live show, we're going to make her come in a matter where it is, fucking Iceland or whatever, we're going to bring her on stage, and then please have a live show in Reckyvac, Iceland. >> A fuck, yeah. >> In that fucking hot-in sauna thing.

>> Yes. >> The blue lagoon. >> In the fucking from the blue lagoon. >> Live from the blue lagoon with f*cking our hair covered in mud. >> We fucking come up out of the water covered in mud, just our eyes.

This is going to be incredible, and Lee, you get to, you get to come, you will be a guest on that show. >> Guest of honor. >> And then Janet is the second guest. >> Oh, Jesus.

>> And of course. >> And Jim is going to close it out. >> Okay. I'm sweating now. >> We did go to--

>> Moose one frame. >> Yep. >> And so does it remember? >> He doesn't. >> No, I totally remember.

>> I feel like the background setting it, Moose one frame always looks exactly the same.

“So when I think of dinner's there, I'm like, ooh, that could have been this one, this one,”

or this one. >> Oh, because I think we did sit in the same booth that we later sat with my mom and my stepdad in. So it's like, fill in the blank, you've had a couple of whiskies, you have a f*cking gunfight in the morning.

So you're not going to remember one or the other, you know, what do you get a gunfight in the morning? >> Right. >> Yeah, home gym really, he flourishes that Moose one frame. For some reason that really is the setting for him.

>> And then I'm not the old, I hear me so fucking sure, I love it. He's very good at faking it when you can't hear. I absolutely have still not from him and just pretended like I can't hear people, many does. It's my favorite.

>> Love that guy. Love that guy. Love that guy. I don't care if it's all around, what a team, what a group, what a group. And we can say the same about the hardstarks if Lee would just show up.

We wouldn't know. We've just don't know. All there is his lore, it's just lore, just lore, lee lore. I do still have the Quill jewelry. I still have it, I still think it's gorgeous, I still think it's such a good gift to get

someone, their favorite book turned into beautiful jewelry, artsy, artsy, boutique, is still an action on Etsy for me, so definitely go check that out.

“I think, yeah, like what book would you want jewelry from?”

That's just so meaningful. I love that. I guess the art of war, and it would be like a crown, it would be the center jewel on a crown. Or motorcycle maintenance and the art of motorcycle maintenance.

And it's spray painted on the back of a jacket. That's it. Those are our two items. They're great. Great.

leather jackets are jewelry, right? Definitely. I did like the question, which is what's your favorite thing anyone's ever given us that that people have made for us at a live show? What's yours?

I mean, I will say this when things really started getting really toary for us. When we would get into a dressing room and they would already be a gorgeously decorated dozen cupcakes or cakes or like we have come into dressing rooms where the murdering doesn't that city, yeah, but like made it this beautiful setting for us.

Yeah.

“Or the baseball bats from what's it called, slugger baseball bats?”

That my dad has hanging in the foyer of his home.

Wow. That's like not hidden in the guest bathroom. No, my mother would fucking kill him. She would never. My sister walked in and goes, did you see what mom isn't here to tear about him?

Oh, my god. That's so sweet. I know. I love that. Wow.

So crazy. Thanks, Louisville. That like he did that is so sweet. That he did it and your mom would hate it. It's like doubling down, you know.

Right. He's kind of like, I'm going to hang up. What do I like? Okay. It's Nora's soft traveling softball team photo.

And then that baseball bat. Okay. There's a theme. That least he's got a theme going. It's generally that remark.

You're so right that like live show gifts are in a different level because we are surprised in the moment in front of that person or backstage or whatever in a way that like someone else getting him from the PO box showing us. Yes. In the eye or like call out in the audience of what someone made is so and then or them

handing it to us is so fucking special. And what about the time they brought you this stuffed animal, Elvis, but they weren't giving it to you. Yeah. I mean, also it's funny too.

The snapshots of like when we talk about live shows and we like there's there will be one thing and you just be like, oh, it's like it just happened. It's very strange because for me anyway, that being at theaters that big doing so well, I mean, just killing kind of killing by definition of showing up on the stage. And then afterwards getting to like enjoy it and sitting it was just for me, such a like

stand up comedy dream come true. So then just any of the gifts on that it was all like cherries on top. I feel like it was such a gift in a weird way early on that I was drinking a lot.

Before the live shows because I was really nerfed, I'd never done anything like that

before. I used that I need you there with me, which like really hit me hard. And so like aside from maybe like a shot once in a while before the show, like right before we go on, I haven't drank or you know, I haven't been drinking all. I've been mostly no totally sober on stage, which I've never would have done on my own.

Yeah, so I can remember every part of it, which is so like what a gift that we gave me together because we did give it to you, though, because what I will give you full

“credit for is you asked the question before that show, right?”

I think it was like one of the second or third ones we did. I think it was in the Bay Area. It was. And you said, is there anything you want to tell me? And I feel like maybe you thought we're thinking about it yourself and wanted me to confirm

or something. Sure.

But the fact that you fucking did it, like I basically was gonna be like, hey, a word

to the wise, you got to get through this the way you can because this isn't easy. And this isn't like standard. And you don't want to do it alone, that's such a, like, yeah, I'm there with you, but everyone knows when you're drunk, you're not, you and you're not there. Yeah, you're like standing five feet behind yourself, thinking you're right there, right?

And that is especially for when the audience, when we are engaged, they're right there with us, right? If we're not connected, they have nothing to latch onto and that's when it's all like, a little, a little, a little from the back. Yeah, no one wants to see a drunk girl doing her own thing, you know?

We've seen it. Yeah, I don't want to see that. We've lived it just, yeah. No, it's great.

“And I fully commend you to do such a hard thing sober when that's, I believe me, I'm”

fully on board with not doing things sober and like getting through things that are especially hard things. But that one, it was like, please trust me and come in mainline life performance with me. Yeah, yeah, great, good, great, great. Fine, we win that one, we did it, we did it, we did it, we did it, we asked, we received.

We've got, we did it. We opened up, got its abilities hard, yeah, and podcasting's hard. Life shows are hard, but it's harder to not remember it or to feel like you don't know what happened and to have shame over that. I rather have shame over my sober performance than shame over not remembering my performance.

And one, have you ever felt shame about your sober performance because you killed, you kill it, you know how to do it, you've done it. Yeah, and even if I don't, it came from me, it's okay. That's right, yeah, amen. Amen.

Should we get into our stories? Yes, right now we're going to get into Georgia's story about the death of Nurse Cindy James. In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.

I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing and immediately the mask came off.

“You're supposed to be safe, that's your home, that's your husband.”

Wasn't it betrayal season five on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts? Who's first? Err, yeah, it's you. Yes.

Drinking. I love going first. Drink if you're first. Drink if you're first. Drink if you're wearing a house dress.

You know what, I left my favorite house dress in Cleveland. You did? How? I just left it on. There was a bath and I left it near the bath.

Oh, that sucks. I'm so sad. So this is my replacement. Okay, so this is something I found a rediscovered, I should say, from one of the articles of like, I just found like the 10 weirdest unsolved mysteries segments.

Okay, are you going into, are you doing the thing we're now, you're googling like bizarre murder? Yes, okay.

There's not a lot of good YouTube videos, but there's a lot of YouTube videos of those

like the top five, whatever, for some reason people use voiceover, like computer voice. The computer voice is. Yes. But you can find a lot of interesting stuff there.

“And so this is one of them that I had forgotten about, but I know I saw when I was a kid.”

Mm-hm. Uh, it's creepy as fuck. Here we go. Okay. It's 1989, sidebar, my ninth birthday, whatever.

In the Vancouver British Columbia Suburb of Richmond, the body of 44-year-old nurse Cindy James was found in the yard of a band at house. I forgot to say that this is about the death of Cindy James. Okay. Okay.

Cindy had been drugged and strangled, and her hands and feet have been tied behind her back. Feet have been tied behind her back? Well, if she's hogged, I'd. She wasn't. Oh.

But the police weren't sure if Cindy's death was an accident, or a murder, or she had committed suicide. What? By tying her hands. Okay.

Okay. Yes, exactly. Okay. All right. So let's get into it.

Okay. Cindy, who, if she were to be played in a recreation of fucking unsolvable story, would be played by Vanowite. Oh, 1980's Vanowite. So just like ideal, everybody's 80's ideal blonde.

Beautiful blonde, vivacious, bright woman. She's 19-year-old nursing student. When she meets at her, the hospital at Van Koover General Hospital, she meets Dr. Roy Makepeace. Mm.

Sounds fake, right? Mm-hm. He's a psychiatrist, and he's 18 years older than her, and married with two kids, but they fall in love. Oh.

- And you're all Cindy, probably love with him. - And sorry, he's 28. - How's 18 years older than her? - Oh, 18 years. - So it's 18 plus 19.

- I'm only one.

“- I'm truly the last person you should have asked that question.”

- Right Steven? - No. (laughing) - 40, what? - Nobody here knows numbers.

- It's 37. - It's 37. - 37. - Okay. (laughing)

- Gotta college kids. - Oh, sorry. Can I quickly side by side? - Always. - There's somebody that tweeted and was like,

"Care and keep." Anytime Karen wants to name something boring. She calls them an accountant.

And it's like, it's like the third account

we've heard from that's like, "We're really not as boring as you say we are." And I feel really bad. I apologize to that person who tweeted. - What does it say?

- What's gonna be the next one? - It has to be something else. - I'll think about it and it'll be something maybe Jo Kier more light-hearted and one that'll hurt people's families less.

- It'll still be mad at you, whoever those people are. - We'll be making kids majors. - That's what we're doing. - That's what we're doing. - That's boring, okay.

- But the can't contact me. - We're about candle makers. - Good. - Yes. - That's a hobby.

- Okay. (laughing) - So can it's title wave of candle maker emails? - I make it good living. - Fuck you.

- I have insurance. - Okay, okay, okay, here we are. - Yes. - They fall in love with each other. - Within four days of Roy's divorce,

he and Cindy are married. - Four days. - So 19 year old Cindy in 20, 37 year old Roy are married. - Which is like, okay, so I'm 37. And if I were building a fucking 19 year old,

do you be like, what are you doing? - Right. - Yeah, that is too young too young. - And also-- - But it's also the 80s, you know.

- She's just having a midlife crisis obviously. - His wife and two kids are like, I'm sorry, what? - Yeah. - Okay. - He's a doctor, you say?

- He's a psychiatrist. - Okay. - So, mm-hmm, okay, so they get married. Cindy graduates from nursing school later she becomes an administrator at a program

for children with behavioral and emotional issues.

So after 16 years of marriage,

they didn't have kids. Cindy ends things with Dr. McPiece. It seems to be amicable, that's in 1982. They split up and that's when her life hits the fan. So four months into their trial separation,

Cindy starts to receive anonymous phone calls from a man who knows her name, knows where she lives, is like threatening her. Sometimes or just breathing into the phone, sometimes. And it was really scary to shoot out of her.

- It's very scary. - Yeah. - After a week after the call start, someone smashes her window and breaks in, or breaks and smashes her window while she's out.

And later that same week and intruder, somehow has a key to her house, gets into the house and stabs her pillow over a dozen times. - But, which is like, shit, man.

“- I just realized, I think I saw the headline for the story”

and the, like, getty image for the story 'cause there was a knife on a pillow and it said, this was, like recently and it was like, this is the most fucked up X story you'll ever hear. - X story?

- X. - I don't know, what's X mean? - Like her X husband. - I was like, is that him, okay? I'll throw him, I don't know, I'll go.

- I was X stands for a word I don't wanna say. - I got it. - I'm wrong, I'm wrong. - Yes, no, you might be right. - Okay, but you're not.

- Okay, cut, it could be. - Got it, is it? - We don't know. - We certainly don't know, we're not gonna say right now. - Is it, it might be an unsolved mystery.

- Oh, we don't know. - Shit, context, I lose. - You said it four times. - Yeah, but that show was it on, it has been on, like this came,

this was like the fucking 80s, so like,

“you know, we're 90s, we're 90s, we're 90s.”

Okay, blah, blah, blah, 60 years much. They write up, should it's a fan? Threatening, stabs are pillow, okay. It was our notes written in Kidnapping font, aka my favorite murder, that's a logo font, yeah.

- Begin to appear on her doorstep and on her windshield of her car, one card has a picture of a woman who looks like Cindy, aka, that'll wait. The woman's eyes have been scratched out and another time the woman's throat,

like there's red ink around her throat. The police investigate, but couldn't track anyone and the phone calls, she were getting, were too short to be traced, so they can't figure out who's doing this.

- Maybe somebody who knows how tracing calls works though. - Ding dong, great, yeah, thank you. - Other things happen, like her porch lights are smashed, her phone lines get cut, all these things keep fucking happening. She freaks out, she decides to move,

and on January 27th, 1982, the first physical attack occurs.

Cindy's good friend and neighbor, Agnes Woodcock. - Leave it alas for your attic effect. - Pause for conversation throughout the office. - Hell, agreed to spend the night so Cindy would feel safer.

So Agnes gets to say-- - Sorry, how old is Agnes? - I mean 72, you'd hope. - That's a non-solution.

“Is this going to become another Bonnie, where we at?”

- It's a non-solution, inviting an Agnes over, isn't it? - Yes, come on, get, what is Agnes, a fucking Navy seal, and get her out of there? You don't need company, if you feel threatened, get someone that's threatening.

- Maybe Agnes is a fucking bodybuilder. - Perhaps. - You tell, all that you tell. - Let's not cast dispersions. - Okay, this ends with Agnes being a bodybuilder.

- No, it doesn't. - That's the big reveal. - That big reveal. - Okay, Agnes gets there around 930 at night. Cindy's not answering the door,

so she goes around to go to the back. - Oh no. - And she hears a moaning. - And Agnes finds Cindy on the ground with a black nylon stocking tighter on her neck,

and some scratches on her body, and they also find later in Needlemark on her arm. So Cindy tells authorities that she had been taking a load of boxes out to the garage, you know, because she's moving in shit.

- Yep. - And finds that the light was out. - In the dark, someone grabs her from behind, she felt a pin prick on her arm, and she thinks she must have been drug,

'cause that's all she remembers from the incident. And the police are like, this is crazy. We're gonna look into it. They look into her ex, husband, ex.

- Right. - Like, stands for your ex, remember? - Right. - He's got an alibi for the time of the attack, and investigators aren't able to find any signs

of any attacker at all, and there are never any calls

when the police are doing 24 hours surveillance. There's never any attacks when that's happening. They always happen when the police aren't around, and again, the calls are untraceable, so the police are starting to doubt Cindy's stories.

Her parents thought the attacker clearly is smart enough to fucking not come the fuck around when there is surveillance. - Yep. - Her friends and family try to convince her

to move into actually like an apartment building, there's more people around.

but she's like, I'm not fucking letting this take over my life.

No.

“And they also worried because she would take,”

she had a small dog that she loved, and she would take the dog out for walks at like 3 a.m. No wouldn't stop doing that, and they were like, we're freaking out about it,

but they thought it was weird that she wouldn't stop doing that. - Yeah, you have to adjust a little bit if you are being threatened in some way. Right. That whole thing of, I'm gonna live my life

exactly the way that's not, yeah, unfortunately. But she doesn't move into a new house, she paints her car, and she changes her last name, and that's how she becomes Cindy James. So, she also has a private investigator named Ozzy Caban,

Caban, Ozzy Caban, which is like the best private investigator name ever. - It's pretty, it's easy-wise, like IE. - Ozbourne, IE, like Davis. - Okay.

- He says that she would be a base of it times

and was withholding information from him and police, but he did believe everything she was saying. He did think that she had a stalker and a attacker. Her mother thought that, because she was being a base of because she was threatened

and feared for her family's life. And that's why that was happening. Her private investigator installed security lights around her house and gave her two-way radio and a panic button just in case.

- Oh, that's good. - Yeah. So, one night, Ozzy here's strange sounds coming from the radio and rushes to Cindy's house. He finds Cindy lying unconscious in the hallway

is like breakdown the door. She has a pairing knife through her hand and also like a note in it. So like they pairing knife through her note in a hand. - And then I'm saying?

- Yes, like stuck through the ground. - To the ground?

- I don't know how deep I don't know what.

- Or like wherever she was though. - She's lying unconscious and then they put a note and a pairing knife in her hand. The note said, "You are dead, bitch." - Fuck.

- All she remembered from that attack was that a needle that was put into her arm.

“And also she seemed to remember that it was more”

than one person, like there might have been two or three assailants. Oh, at the time, like a couple of the attacks. No fingerprints are found. There's no clues.

There's no leads. Aside from Cindy's injuries. There's no evidence. Anyone else have been in the house. So investigators are frustrated with Cindy

and they are like, this chick is fucking doing this on her own. They think she is staging all of this. So hoping to convince investigators to take her more seriously, Cindy's like, "Give me a fucking polygraph." She fails a polygraph twice.

- Oh no. The operator suggests the stress she was under might have affected the results. And she's too embarrassed. She's embarrassed so she wants the investigation to be shut down.

She refuses to sign her statement. And she says it's 'cause she's afraid her family. Then December 11, 1985, a cyclist finds Cindy lying in a ditch six miles from her home. She's days and semi-conscious.

She's suffering from hypothermia. Has cut some bruises all over her body. And she, again, had a black nylon stalking around her neck. All she's wearing is a man's work boot and glove.

“She doesn't remember anything that could help”

with the investigation. - Man. - And then one night she has her friends, Agnes, her friend Agnes, and her husband spend the night to keep her safe.

Her husband's there. - All right. - But he's tiny. - No, but he's so slow. - So he's pocket sized.

- Little baby. They are all woken up in the middle of the night because the basement of the house is on fucking fire. - No, the phone line had been cut, so Agnes has been fucking,

Mr. Agnes was fucking runs out and sees a man standing at the curb and yells to him to call the fire department, but the man just runs off. Which is like, everyone says like the man just ran off

and everything you listen to. And then it's like maybe he ran to fucking call 911. - Oh, that's true. - You don't even in? - Yeah, he doesn't.

- He's like, so fun. - Yeah, I'm doing what you told me to do. - Yeah, I'm gonna run off. - Maybe he ran off and called 911. - Maybe.

- We don't know. Maybe he didn't, maybe he started the fire. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he was scared of yelling. I mean, he just ran.

- Maybe he's walking his dog in the middle of the night. - We don't know. - Please determine that the fire was started from inside the house because they saw no fingerprints on the window.

They think the perp, the perp would have used that window to get in. There's no fingerprints. It's fucking, John Bernal over again. They determined that Cindy must have staged the incident

and there was also another fire that happened another time that they think she staged. - Letters and phone calls continue. Cindy's like fucking no one will believe me. She thought I'm being stalked and threatened and attacked.

She's freaking out about it. In June 1985, she's like going crazy.

So she's diagnosed with severe depression

and committed to the psych warded hospital in North Vancouver. - Wow. - So while she's there, she's examined by psychiatrists, who says that Cindy's,

he determined Cindy's troubles are, quote, "self initiated." He said she'd fallen into a, quote, "cycogenic fugue." An altered consciousness stemming from a deep sea to trauma and that she wasn't even aware that she was behind everything. - Mm-hmm.

- So she's there for 10 weeks and then is released. - Okay, what do you think so far? - I don't like that. - Okay. - Mm-hmm.

- It frustrates me. Here's a thing and this is, this is clearly, just off the top of my head. But you don't cut your own phone line. You don't stab your own hand.

- Yeah. - Like people, there are people who do things like this all the time and they do it in a way. Like the idea that you would be going past the point of normal, like I'm trying to swindle people,

“but like I think personally, psychopaths”

are people that try to manipulate a bunch of people at once by like, "Oh, my life isn't terrible." We'll not harm themselves to do that. Or we'll like, you know what I mean? - Okay, but they harm their children.

- Right. - Munch thousand? - Yeah, but that's not them. - That's an extension of them. - I mean, that's not them.

- There is a bunch of them. - Their hand does not get stabbed. - Mm-hmm. - Well, it also a bunch of thousands would be, that would be an additional kind of issue.

But this is that thing of like, if they're trying to say, like, 'cause what would the point of that be, getting the attention of the police? Like, she wants police attention? - I don't know.

- Or emergency attention or something? What would the point of strangling yourself with a nylon bee and wake up in the ditch with hypothermia? Like, what is she getting? What would the benefit be?

- Yeah. - Is my. - That's a good question.

“- I'm couldn't be furring my brow further”

in total confusion and what the fuck? - Okay, let's keep going. - Okay. - Okay, let's get fucking weirder. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, down to the letter to, okay.

Hold on. Okay, she gets out after 10 weeks. Then on October 26, 1986, 1988, she's attacked for the fifth time, fuck. And RCMP officer, mounted police.

- Royal Canadian, mounted police. - Police, officer, discovered her unconscious in her car, nude from the waist down. Her hands are tied behind her back and she's squeezing the panic button over silent alarm.

There's duct tape over her mouth. There's bruising and swelling over one of her eyes and she has a black nylon stocking tight around her neck again. She's dressed to the hospital and but no one else's fingerprints are at the scene.

There's, they bring in a fucking police dog. There's no scent to pick up at all. There's no indication that anyone else was present. - Okay.

- She finally tells police that her tormentor

is her ex-husband, Royal make-piece.

“They encourage her, they want her to phone him”

and confront him and take the conversation. He'd right-in-ise any involvement during the conversation. And in fact, he gave the police a recording from his own answering machine that contained a death threat.

Do you wanna hear it? - Yeah. - Okay, wait, okay. - Yes, do you wanna know? - Yes, okay. - Mm-hmm.

- What? - No, I do. - Okay. (triumphant music) - No.

- Hello everyone. (laughing) - Who's my cast is that? - Oh, shout out to the trailwink hole with a roll in order.

I'm sorry, it's all that. - What the fuck? - And so everyone, I mean, Reddit loves this fucking story. Like, it sounds like a woman. - I definitely read about it before.

- Yeah. - It does sound like a woman. - It does. So Roy thinks that Cindy has multiple personalities and isn't even aware that she's doing these things

to himself. But he's like, I, but I'm not behind this. - Okay. - And they tend to believe him. - Mm-hmm.

- The psychiatrist. - Yeah. - Hold on. - Incoming. - Here's Roy.

- And then a train comes by. - Okay. So she had been given those two lighted actor tests and had been showing deceit in them,

but she's given a third one and when she's asked

if she staged one of the attacks, she says no and she's judged to be truthful. So there's like a little bit of both going on. So, after almost seven years after the harassment started, Cindy is now 44, those missing on May 25.

- Shit. - Her car is discovered in the parking lot of a small shopping mall where she have gone that day to deposit her check and to do some grocery shopping.

There's blood on the driver's side door of the car

“and items from her wallet are found under the car.”

So this is after nearly 100 well documented cases of harassment, including threatening phone calls and notes, vandalism and arson, three dead cats were found in her yard. - Oh.

- I know. Sorry, Stephen. Then me, and five violent physical attacks between 1982 and 1989, Cindy's body is found dead. Two weeks after her car had been found, Cindy was found,

her body is found by a construction worker in the yard in the abandoned house, a mile and a half from where her car had been parked. There's just a fucking photo of it online. - It's not scary to some, but she said,

just horrible. - Yeah, yeah. - Black nylon stocking was tied tightly around her neck and the autopsy shed that Cindy died from an overdose of morphine and other drugs.

There was a needle mark in her arm, but they had been taken orally. - Oh. - So the royal Canadian mounted police,

“they believe that her death was an accident or suicide.”

They think she was responsible for her own death. - Okay. So there's a fucking crazy corners in class 'cause they're like, did she, was she killed

by her stalker finally after six and a half years,

or did she do this for herself? It becomes the lengthiest and most expensive public inquest in British Columbia's history. - Wow. - 84 witnesses are called a test of eye.

There's a not specialist who comes in is like, so her arms were tied behind her back and the not specialist shows how she could have tied up her legs then tied up her arms in front of her and stepped through to tie them up behind her back.

- Oh yeah. - Within three minutes, she could have shot, he could have, she could have done that. Also that, that, that, that, that, that. - So she had an overdose of morphine,

but so people are like, how could she have done those things after taking morphine, but she had taken them orally,

“which meant she would have had like 15 to 60 minutes”

before that kicked and tied herself up and then to walk to that spot a mile and a half from her car. So it was still possible she could have done it and maybe put the needle mark in her arm as a, like, red herring.

- Yes, that's the word, thank you. But also they didn't find a needle or a vial or anything near her body or near her car. - And sorry, the idea is she ties herself up and then takes a mile and a half walk.

She takes a mile and a half walk or whatever, gets to this place somehow and then does the time. - Then does the tying, maybe takes the morphine and then then dies. - Okay. - So, but also the weird thing too is that her body,

the place where her body is found and the abandoned yard is really close to the street. You can see in an old video like an old interview with her with Ozzy, her fucking police dude. It's close to the street almost like someone should have

smelled it or saw her and nobody did. So that was where Ozzy was who still believed her was like that must mean that she had been dumped. Later, close at the time when she was found. - Yeah, because somebody would have watched her walk in

or like seen her around or smelled a body or seen her body lying. - Oh, because of you there, got it, got it. - So, maybe. So, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, and I, well,

okay, after a three months of this coroner's inquest, the jury couldn't decide and called her death due to a quote unknown event. Whoa, and the death is classified as undetermined and still is. So, of course, there's a shits on the theories on the case

and on Reddit, especially no one agrees. I'm like, okay, did she have a mental illness, just that dissociative identity disorders, one of the things, munches and schizophrenia. Some people are like, maybe it's started

with an actual stalker and no one believed her and so she kind of escalated it to make people believe her and accidentally did this thing to herself. And then they look into like every single time she was found bound.

It was near a place where she would have found quickly or she had the panic button in her hand.

So, she would have never been left like long enough.

She knew that Agnes was coming at 9.30 at night. She knew that she had the walkie talkie with Ozzy and so, he heard weird sounds and came over. She put her own body, she expected to be found that last time when she died because she was near a walkway.

Oh, it's just that no one actually found. You know what I mean? It's like, this is one of those cases where there's so many reasons behind both of the answers, either she did it herself or there was an actual murderer

and stalker and there's, and you know, even though I was writing this and everyone has her own fucking opinion, even though I was writing this, I found myself

So, I found myself leaving stuff out that didn't support it

“and I made myself put it back in because it's not there.”

Yeah, so it's really easy to do. Sure, well, and also you just want to make sense of it. Yeah, and also to me, I'm like, obviously this, but it's not obvious. Also, I feel like she would have had

and maybe no one's talking about this part because it would be so disrespectful of the dead. Did she have any signs of any mental illness before this stalking thing started? Because if not, if she was just regular pants

and going about her day and handling things, then it is so easy to call somebody crazy and be like, oh, this is a thing, oh, I can write this off 'cause it's something she's just doing it to herself. Yeah, which is like, what, like, what for?

Well, that's a great question and what's frustrating too about this case, which probably makes it so interesting too, is that you really only have these facts

of what happened to her after her divorce.

So we don't know, I couldn't find anything about her before she met her husband. Right. So it's hard to tell the psychiatrist that she went to and she got committed, said that it's from past trauma.

So who the fuck knows what that means? And she had this, you know, like everyone's saying that she had this traumatic life event with her divorce, but they, by all accounts, have an amicable separation. And so it doesn't seem like it was totally traumatic.

Right. Well, and also one of the things that the psychiatrist said it sounded like was something along lines of multiple, possible, multiple personality, which they've proven isn't the real way.

So there's those things where like, there's a lot of like, 1980s old school shit terms. I just think cutting your phone line is such a dramatic why did you do your phone line to, like, to, you, it sucks things up.

It's, you don't just get your phone turn back on. Yeah. Like, that's kind of, you won't have a land line in the 80s for like two weeks until like I'm in fix it. Well, maybe she fucking likes that

'cause then she can get these calls anymore. I mean, I'm not, like, I don't know. I, but that's, yeah, that's dramatic. And people have to come to your aid and it is a big deal. And so, but it also isn't harming you.

So it's this like, someone cut my phone lines it seems like a big deal. So send me like, I guess nowadays it'd be someone stole my phone, right? Or whatever.

Yeah. So all these things are, these things that are, and I don't know which one it is, and I can't say, so I can see the point of why it's,

“why should do these things to herself for attention?”

It makes sense to me. Yeah, I just, it doesn't, the attention part doesn't make sense. Although I'm not denying that's a thing people get. Yeah, where it's almost like, then the ambulance came

and it was so exciting or whatever, but yeah, it just seems like. Well, to me, it's so much more likely a woman, especially a woman, if she looked like something like Vanna White in the 80s or 90s had a stalker. And a person who was trying to make her go crazy

and torture her. But how, how did they find no trace of him for six and a half years? Well, it sounds like, I mean, a clearly out, that the cops discounted her really early

and so didn't bother looking for shit. Also, could have been that the stalker was a cop and knew all the inside shit. Well, we got some shit then to talk about. Oh, shit, Joe.

All right, because also that thing where you, when you said the thing about the dogs, not getting a scent, but they have to know

what they're smelling for to do it in the first place.

So yeah, if it's only her smell, they need a sock from a person they suspect. So like, I don't, I don't just find a scent and run to a person that makes, that's very true. I only know that from our friend and someone knows something.

I know all about those.

“You should be able to get a real Canadian mountain.”

Oh, I will. Okay, so let's talk about a couple suspects. All right, constable Pat McBride was the first investigator to look into Cindy's claims way back in 1982.

He ended up getting involved with her romantically pretty quickly and moved in with her for a brief period. Their relationship ended when he asked her to marry him and she said no. Okay, so he was a fucking cop and spurned.

But he was only police who believed and supported her that she had a stalker. But it's like a torture like, no, yeah, totally believe it. Yes, that's a perfect hiding place. But maybe to his friends, he was like,

she is fucking crazy. She's like, yeah, yeah. And he, so he was looked into as a suspect and cleared four years after Cindy's death, Pat pleaded guilty to two incidents of sexually assaulting women.

Uh-oh. And he had been under psychiatric care since 1994 because of a personality disorder. Okay, which is like, I mean, who is it? (laughs)

Well, you would hope not all police, right, people and people that are supposed to uphold the law.

Jesus ate.

So he was looked into and cleared,

“but that's some, that's some shit to consider.”

That's what I was thinking. Yes. Also, okay, here's, okay, here's the fun part. This isn't fun. Here's the part.

Well, when Cindy was under hypnosis at one point, try to remember who had attacked her in more details, she had a memory of being on a trip with her ex-husband, Dr. Makepiece, shortly before their divorce.

They were with a doctor named James Tyhurst. And she said she witnessed them doing something sinister, including cutting up bodies. Like, had killed people and were cutting up bodies. She remembered that during hypnosis.

Hmm. So it turns out this fucking dude, Dr. James Tyhurst, we'll come up to you, YHRC. He was, had been sexually abusing his, some of his female patients.

And he was arrested just four months after Cindy's death. And in 1991, he was convicted on five counts of sexual and in decent assault. And ended up paying one of his victims

half a million dollars in damages.

He was one of those psychiatrists that would do that thing. Where would he make them sign a fucking master and slave thing? To be like, you have daddy issues here. Here's how to get past them.

“Like, you need to let me take over your life.”

And then in some occasions, he would like have them take their shirt off and whip them. He was like a fucking psychopath. And he was a psychiatrist. And basically leading these women to believe

he was stealing that part of their process. Yeah, dark. So, here we go, conspiracy theory time. Because I just finished fucking warmwood on Netflix. (laughing)

Highly recommend everyone watches all the way through. It's so good, it's so good. Okay, so I totally believe this part. Dr. Tyhurst worked with the CIA in the 1950s. Uh-oh.

Uh-oh.

In experiments involving brainwashing, including,

he worked on a project called Project Artichoke, which turned into Mkildrauses. Mkildrauses started his project artichoke. (laughing) So for everyone who doesn't know,

the project studied hypnosis. Forced morphine addiction. What? She died from a fucking morphine overdose. Right, she did.

Did I say morphine? Yes, you did. And, and they also studied a subsequent forced withdrawal of morphine. And the use of chemicals, including LSD,

to produce amnesia and other vulnerable states in subjects. Fucking egg. Go watch for a word if you think that that's bullshit. Right, fucking the original fight.

I would fight you. I just want to be in the meeting where people are like, look, we're doing some pretty great censorship. We're dosing everyone with acid. We're making people pretend to commit suicide.

We cannot call ourselves Project Artichoke anymore. It doesn't suit us. It doesn't suit the project. Well, but no one guy goes, "What about the layers?"

You peel one artichoke and, like, leaf off. And they're like, Stanley, you've had your time at the table. Now we're talking about the future. Mkildraubust.

And they're like, "That sounds creepy." All I want is for future fucking true crime podcasts to have a cool name and not laugh at Project Artichoke. That's right. Mkildraubust.

But no. So I want a Project Artichoke. That's what I mean. That's our new fucking business venture. Project also happens to be Elvis's favorite food,

or the jokes. It's a fucking full circle. So did she witness her husband and they broke up pretty quickly after and, fuck, Dr. Tyburn, fucking doing some sinister shit.

And Dr. Tyburn is like, "Well, I'm gonna fucking mind "control the shit out of her for six and a half years, "so she doesn't know and believes what she's saying." And we make her seem like a totally crazy woman that would do this thing voluntarily

to get attention, therefore, she's no credibility with her family, with her friends. So we call it fucking Constable Pat McBrides and give him $10,000 to be in on it. This guy's all the way to the middle.

Oh, they are the joke. Oh, no, did this shit in garlic butter and put it to fucking bed? God. So either way, if she was doing it herself,

“which I believe 60%, she didn't know she was doing it.”

It's horrible inside. So you think it was a puppet master situation where she wasn't doing it because of a psychotic break or some kind of thing, it was because of that. - No, I think she had some severe mental illness

that just sociability, I don't know what, by, I don't know what. And listen, everyone knows I'm not fucking saying that people who have mental illness are fucking crazy 'cause I have, hi, I have my welcome, welcome to my life. But it does seem like there's a lot of,

every not happened can be reasoned that she was doing these things to herself

And if that's true, how sad is it

“that she had to live through that of her own mental illness?”

If it's fucking not true and there was someone doing these things to her and no one believed her and thought she was crazy, how fucking sad is that? - Every direction.

- It's in the same case when I don't think we'll ever know because, you know, there's just not enough. Especially if you start to link it to the CAA or MKALTER, something that you can, these days, it feels more and more like, oh yeah, that's possible.

- Yeah, oh yeah, some D, some D. - Well, they did the shit man, but they really did. - They really did it. Have I mentioned where I'm would? - Do I have to say it again?

- How many times? But it's funny 'cause I've heard the story about her and you really, not you personally, this story gets told really with this thing of like, here's this horrible thing,

but also isn't even crazy or she was doing it to herself. So you almost get served this worst case scenario. You know what I mean? It's a more interesting story if she was doing it to herself or it's a more twist.

- It's, I think what's so interesting about it is that nobody knows and it feels awful either way, either place you land on it, it feels awful because she still, you know, she still was tormenting. And no matter what, I'm just saying you don't cut your own phone line.

Okay, I'm just saying no one cuts a land line. First of all, how do you even fucking do it? - I love the thing that you have fucking problem with.

“- It's the only thing that I have in this life.”

- It's, but it's so like, for people who have never had landlines

or didn't rely on them, you don't know how serious you are about this. - It's kind of like how, I don't know if it's still this way, but like, I mean, I don't know if it's like a known thing or whatever, but it's like, you just couldn't get anybody

to get anything taken care of in a short amount of time. - Yeah. - So that whole thing of like, the window is between Tuesday and Friday and they'll come whenever they feel like, yeah, I don't know. For something like a phone, I just don't see it happening.

Also, the other day I was sitting at home and all of a sudden my power went out. And of course, the first thing I think is I didn't be. - Yeah, everyone thinks that. - But then it came back on and then it went off again.

And it was like three o'clock in the afternoon, we were just laying my watch and TV, I was like scared, like white hot scared 'cause I'm like someone's outside turning my power off. - Oh my God. - And at the bomb drop, finally.

- Yeah, I took it more of a one-on-one. I was gonna have to like get into a knife fight with somebody, but it just shows what the things were scared about.

- And they're always with us.

- And they're always there and Xanux doesn't help. - It doesn't help. - Well, it'll still happen, you just don't register anything. - Well, there's so many nuances in this case, do I urge people to go to fucking Reddit and the unexplained message words

and just look up everyone's theories because it's so interesting. - Yeah. - Everyone has his theories and then they, and every comment is fucking, yeah, but, you know, and they're all right, it's just,

it seems like it could truly be, it could go any direction. - Yeah, like people answered the phone when they were at her house with her standing there and no one was on the line. - Yeah, but no one ever answered the phone and there was someone talking on the line.

You know what I mean, it's like, oh, that kind of thing. - Yeah. - Also, I really fucking hated that phone call.

“- Oh, somebody's telling you what, that's why I play that.”

Somebody's standing there trying to be threatening. It's like, it's not the voice or it's the idea that a person is on the other line thinking to do that to someone. - 'Cause trying to scare the shit out of you. - Yeah, it's just so fucking weird.

Soon phones won't exist. That's the dream. - Talking to anyone who exists. - Just let's, it'll all be podcasts. Text, text me like two emojis, get it, get the idea across.

- If you want to tell me anything, make a podcast. (laughs) - Podcast about it. Send me the podcast. If it doesn't get, if it gets under top 10 and iTunes,

I'll listen to what you have to say. - Nice, okay. - Yeah, that's good. - What time? - You wanna know what time?

- What time? - Make a podcast about it. - Don't mean a podcast. - So that's the story of Cindy James and her death. - Well, that's fascinating.

I definitely have heard of it before, but I didn't know her by the head. (audience cheering) - Okay, we're back. Are there updates for this?

- No updates, and I did some digging, and it's just everyone is still debating that the, quote, evidence. But in September 2021, the podcast called Death by an unknown event was released covering this case.

And it was narrated by actress Pamela Adlon, of course, who's so great. She's, you know, in the show, better things and Greece too. And there's also a book about it that I haven't read. It's called Who Kills Cindy James by Ian Mulgrew.

And I don't know what side it takes, but I'm very interested in reading a whole book about it, 'cause this case is just such a headscratcher. - Yeah. - And so fucking tragic.

- Yeah. - Let's get into Karen's story about the tragedy of the mixed-day family murders.

Joy is essential, and it's also elusive.

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Joy 101. If you're craving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on air chats. Listen to Joy 101 with Hota Kotby starting June 10th

on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Hey Portlandia fans. - Carry Brownstein and Fred Armison here. - The dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form.

- We're launching Pod Landia, A-O-R-Watch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together. Breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters, and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made.

- And we'll also be joined by the people who helped to bring it all to life. guest stars, collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Christle,

the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin,

legendary musician, Amy Mann, and many more. - Kyle is going for it here. - You fully improvise, not just words, but a song about it. - I thought you were all gonna write a song.

- I remember you thinking about it. - Listen to Pod Landia, A-O-R-Watch, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - In the middle of the night, Saskia awoke in a haze.

Her husband Mike was on his laptop. But was on his screen would change Saskia's life forever. - I said I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing. And immediately, the mask came off. - You're supposed to be safe.

- That's your home, that's your husband. - Listen to the betrayal season five on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - But it's funny 'cause the way you said that

and unsolved mystery style, right? - It was on, on solved mysteries. My murder today is also one that I was like, "Hey, whatever happened to that story." - Love it.

- Did one of those? - Yeah. - And also I did, and this I understand, I've been leaning on a lot lately, but my fucking characters are fucking buckets.

- My, the way I'm trying to find stories is to go on iTunes and then just look under true crime and see what they have like what? Because the iD channel, at this point now, they have every water feature style murder.

It's like swamp murders. It's in full murders and fucking shallow puzzle. - And somehow they're able to turn it into a half an hour show when it's really like, that has been killed her. - Right.

- But it's, but because it, in essence, it's so fascinating that you don't, you don't need much. So I, to keep up with a lot of those ones. - Yeah. - But there's a really good one, water feature.

(laughing) - Take a minute for the water feature. - You know what? - It comes up in the story.

“- That's why it was on the top of my head.”

- But James Patterson has a new, like a reenactment crime series that I found, like I think I stumbled upon, I highly recommend it. He's at the top, he does this goofy introduction. You know, James Patterson is the novelist.

I mean, he like, he has his own commercials will be like, my new vocal drive, you're crazy. He looks like someone's grandpa. So I started watching this 'cause I'm like, I bet this is gonna be real cheesy.

It is so wonderfully produced and acted and really well-written and they're true crimes. They're like, it's not fictional. - Is it called waterfall murders? - It's called water feature.

- It's called, who didn't turn off the hose. (laughing) - I can get my dad murdered everybody in the house because you left the hose on the right. - Drinking poison out of the hose.

- Cute. - Hot water out of a green garden hose. - Wait, okay. - What's the, what's the show called? - James Patterson colon Stevens going to tell us in a minute.

(laughing) - I'm the corner of my eyes. - Oh, I love that you did, I love that you tried to avoid it 'cause I was like, "Hey, Karen, tell us!" I didn't help you.

- I just put it into my table though. So I thought if I started to say James Patterson, the rest would come out. - It doesn't do that in real life. - No, we don't have tables in her brains yet.

- It doesn't. - I'll read it. - But it's called murder is forever. - Yeah, and that's really true. - I mean, how many times have we told you guys?

But now that James Patterson's saying it, he's right. - So he's good, but there was another one I found. - And this is what got me to this story. - So also we know people magazine,

right there, and always has them with the true crime.

- For front, that's the far front. - It has been all over John Bene's deaths since it happened.

“That's what they did it, that's what they do.”

And now they're devoted and they have a dedicated team. - Mm-hmm. - So this is the mixed-day family mark. (screaming) - You're doing it.

- I'm doing it. - I love it, oh, mixed-day. - It makes me so crazy because when I saw this was one of the choices, when I was looking at all the choices

It was that thing where I went,

“oh, I remember that, I remember that happening.”

I remember it being breaking news here in LA. I remember them talking about, oh, this family of four went missing. And then the follow-up reports in like the following same month or so,

they all led and told this weird story where I started to go, oh, they probably brought it on themselves. Oh, they probably, oh, they're escaping something. - They did this, they did this. - They did it to themselves or they're running away

because they're the criminals. - Right. - Really that narrative got into like the media pretty strongly. - Yeah. - And then it made me go, oh well, then they probably just ran away

and there were tax evaders or some weird thing.

And then I just never heard anything else about it.

So when I saw it come up as that choice, I was like, I bet you that ended way different than I remember. And I need to know what the whole story is. - Oh, this one hurts. - It's bad.

And it's Southern California, of course. So it's a fallback California, which is 100 miles north of San Diego. So it's that weird space between 100 miles north. - Yeah.

So you know like as you go down towards San Diego and there's like, to macula, whatever, it's right. I think it's right south of to macula.

“From when I remember, I looked at the map a couple times.”

But it's basically kind of just, I know I can read maps, Google maps. Okay, so Joey and Summer Mistay are happily married couple. He designs custom-made water features. - Oh my goodness.

- That's why that was in my head. - Oh fucking circle. - Circle, circle. So basically it's like these really high end.

It's kind of an amazing business.

And you know people like that that are like, they're artists, but then they apply, there are times actually make something functional that people need. So it's like water fountains and water features

that were all like waterfalls in the pool that go under the pool. - Exactly. - Because you're rich as fuck and you just need more shit. - Yes.

- Very high end business. - It reminds me of something that would be like now an HGTV show. - Totally. - The mixed-day family water features.

“- They bring in, they're the specialists”

that the like, those weird Las Vegas rent brothers bring in. - The property brother? - The rent brother. (laughing) - They're rental brother.

They're a little bit more low down. - Then the property brothers are about buying. - The property brothers were like, we're not going to fucking Las Vegas dude. - That's right.

- The rent brothers are like, yeah, if you have a part-time job in you love beer, where are your guys? - Yeah, okay. - Las Vegas is where to go.

- So, okay. So, that's what Joey does for living. It really fancy great business. So, you started himself and that just is doing better and better. And so, they just bought this really nice house in Fallbrook.

And summer is a full-time real estate agent. So, they're doing very well. And they have two young sons, a five-year-old, and a three-year-old. So, they are on February,

I believe it's around like, February 8th or 10, Joey is what everyone calls him. Joey McStay's father Patrick notices that he's not answering his calls. Every time he calls Joey, he goes straight to the mailboxes full, he cannot get a hold of him.

And he finally calls his other son Michael and says,

"Well, you go check on Joey in the house 'cause he's not answering what's going on." And then they start getting calls, complaints of people that are looking for their water features, or their orders, or they want a question,

or whatever, and no one's answering. So, and Joey was a really astute business man. So, they knew once they started hearing complaints through emails that like calls weren't being returned, that's when they really started getting worried.

If something was going on, 'cause it's just not like him. And actually, the webmaster for Joey's company was the one that called and said, "I got all these emails, it's like he's, "I can't get a hold of him."

So, then the whole family kind of gets together. And Michael, Joey's brother, and then Joey's business partner, who is the guy that took the designs and actually made the water features, his name is Chase Merritt.

He's like the construction did. - Yeah. - He's like, you designed it on the paper, and I take all the tubes, twisted around, make a water feature.

- Okay. - We check it out. Boom, we all make $10,000. They go over to the mixed-day's new house, and they're looking around.

They see that the family, that Joey's truck is in the driveway, but that the family car is gone. The family car is in the zoosu trooper, and it's not there.

They look, they look over the back fence. The dogs are out in the backyard. They haven't been fed. They're like going crazy that people are actually there. And then Michael finds an open window,

and they look around, and there's no blood anywhere.

“There's nothing a miss or doesn't look like there's been a struggle,”

but it looks like people were just there five minutes ago. So there's two little bowls of popcorn on the couch, they're just sitting on the couch. There's glasses on the counter. You know, reading glasses, sitting on the counter,

there's open cans of paint from a room that they were, you know, read, like, repaints. - They were open. No one leaves the pan, a pan open. - Not even if they were going to run.

- No. - So the corner, it's like, what if the dogs get in, - That's true. - Or the kids. - Yeah, I'm so in-law, we're trying to have about that shit.

There's no fucking way or just leaving those. And I don't have dogs or kids. - Right. And they said, later on, they say that they're the kind of people that they'd brought their dogs everywhere,

so they wouldn't, like the idea that the dogs were out in the yard, not fed, is like, really upsetting to them, they knew something was terribly wrong. On February 15th, the family reports the entire family missing to the San Diego Sheriff's Department.

They tried to contact them in every way. They look everywhere, and they're like, no, this is like, we need the police to start investigating this. So the police narrow it down to the last night, anybody heard from them, and the last, like, traceable,

like, phone activity was on February 4th of 2010. - And February 15th is when they got old cops. - Yes, wow.

- So they, yeah, they basically was like,

oh, they're so busy, they're just not getting back to us, and then it got to the point where it's like, somebody's got to look into this.

“So I think, and also February 15th was like,”

may have been the official day that it started, so they could have been talking in the cops the second after they went into the house and it looked like everyone had just walked out of the house, which is such a creepy feeling. But anyway, so they see that on February 4th,

at 8, 28 p.m., a cell phone tower pinged Joseph's phone, he had made a call to employee in Rancho Cucamanga to talk about work, and then they find out that a neighbor, their neighbor had a surveillance camera that caught the edge of the mixed day's driveway,

and so they have video footage of the mixed day's is usually a trooper backing out of the driveway at 747 p.m. on the night of February 4th. - I thought I forgot about that park. - Yeah, but you can't see it.

So all you can see are the wheels going down the driveway. You don't even see where the windows are on the car. It doesn't go up high enough. So you can't see who's in the car. But you just see that the trooper is leaving the house.

And then on February 8th, they find the family's 1996 is user trooper. It had been towed from a parking lot near San Jose Drow,

“and the security guards later tell investigators,”

it may have been parked there some time between 530 and 530 p.m. and 7 p.m. And so then they start looking,

it's basically a parking lot that's right next to the border.

So then they start watching video footage because they're like, well, what if the family just went into Mexico and something happened? 'Cause that's basically what the car being driven there tells them that.

- Yeah. - So then they find the-- - What year is this again? - This was 2010. - Okay. - So, and I know that for a five.

(laughing) I just had a question, yeah, I guarantee it. I wrote the year down on every single one of these lines. No, so they start looking at video footage and they think they have found around 8 o'clock on that night.

They think they found it's like surveillance footage of people walking into Mexico from the California side, into Mexico, and it's a family of four, and it's a guy in a girl, and then a two little children.

- I have watched back then watch that video over and over and pause it and started it and pause it. - It's just shadows. - It's shadows. - You can't tell if it is far away.

- It's walking away, so you don't see their faces, but it looks like a husband and a wife and two little boys, and it actually is, probably. - It could be. I mean, like, they were saying something where it's like,

both of the little boys had these hats on, like, beanies, and which is what those little boys did were all the time. - What are they calling them, and not... - Tukes?

- Tukes and Canada? - Yeah, we're like, not in California. - Yeah. - Beanies here, but. - Yeah, or, you know, some, just kind of a little half. - Yeah.

- But the thing is, lots of little kids were. - Yeah. - So it's that thing where it's like-- - Well, what are the chances of that same night at that same time, and this happened?

- They look, you know, it's far away, but it's like, she's a different brand. - A different brand. - It's all, they fit the body types, all that they do.

- So then the police find on summer's computer, looking into, like, from January,

to take children across the border and to Mexico?

“And different questions like that about taking kids there.”

So then they were like, okay, maybe this, they've been planning some kind of escape. And that's where this part of the narrative comes in. - Yeah. - And then the father says in the People Magazine Investigates,

the father talks about how Joey, 'cause he was doing so well in business and stuff, he ended up buying land in Belize, because he had this retirement plan, he loved surfing, and he loved the water.

And so he had this land, he was gonna build, like, a house on in Belize for when they were done, and they just wanted to go down and live the easy life. - Well, he, yeah, and he looked like the Margarita, dude. - Yes, he's very Sammy Hagar.

- He's like, he's like a young Sammy Hagar. She's just like beautiful, like looks like, she hang out the beach all the time. - Totally, yeah. - She's like share hair.

- Yeah, they're both like surfies, chill out,

looking the kids are like sweet, you know?

- So those little boys look like the cutest kids. - Yeah. - Yeah, it's just like a very beautiful, - Very Southern California family. - So Southern California.

- Yeah. - Just kind of like, we've, and successful. - Yeah, doing well, because they've worked hard. - Yeah, yeah. - So then this idea that the seeding this concept

in that they somehow were on the run, or they were trying to get away from something, or whatever. Then they start theorizing, okay, was the cartel involved in this water feature company, where if they were exporting,

then somehow they got, they ran into the wrong element, exporting these water features into Mexico, or internationally, or something where they're just trying to theorize of like, why would you run with your whole family?

- Yeah.

“- Why would you cross over into Tijuana and just disappear?”

Like, what could be happening? - Yeah. - It's like, I get it, it makes sense, that that's one of the things you think about. - Sure.

Well, and I also think that sometimes those people come up with those theories, 'cause they're trying to think how can this family still be a lot? - Right.

- Because the underlying creepiness is, you want to go, there's got to be some other thing that's happening. - Yeah. - Yeah.

- On May 13th of 2010. - So this is like, you know, February, March, April, three months later, they send investigators down to El Rosario, Mexico, because so a waiter sees little kids, sees the birthmark and reports it,

that he thinks this is the kid, 'cause now their pictures are everywhere. - Yeah. - And it's missing family. - Yeah.

- There's no homicide element in the obviously in the beginning of this case. - It's like, bomb is case family. - So it's, and also,

“it seems like when those pictures of like,”

have you seen this family, it immediately puts them in that they could be criminals. - Yeah. - Or there's something questionable about like, you know, there's a whole family disappear

unless they're to be in on their own. - Unless they're not like a husband and wife or one of the other. - Changing their identity or whatever. - Yeah.

- You don't usually run away with a three year old and a five year old. - Right. - So a bunch of, they sent seven investigators down to look into this.

But nothing, nothing came of that. And then the brother, Michael starts the, find the McPhate, Nick's stay family website. And it gets a bunch of attention and they actually did a,

they featured the story on America's most wanted. Just saying this family is disappeared and nobody knows what's happening.

The problem is that the family finds

that in their personal bank accounts, they have $100,000. So they're like, why would you escape and leave behind a button? - And it's not attached.

- This whole time. - It's just sitting in their bank account. - I remember that amount being like, like, if they left $10,000 and didn't touch it, it would be like, they're, you know, okay.

Like, if you're trying to make it seem like you didn't run away, but you left that. - $100,000 fucking dollars. - Why wouldn't you bring that if you're on the run, right?

- Right. - That doesn't make sense. - Yeah, that's so much money. Then, they also find that some are had in her email, the family starts going through the email,

their personal email, and finds that her abusive ex was a guy named Victor Hansen. She hadn't spoken to him in five years. And actually, she was like the bad. That was the bad relationship.

She was coming out of when she met Joey. And they were like, and he like turned her life around and it was suddenly like, I believe and love again, type of thing. So they find an email from that guy.

They hadn't spoken in five years. And the email was, they didn't like the tone of it or the sound of it. So suddenly they're like, where's this guy? - Yeah.

- So they start looking into Victor Hansen. And it turned out, in the time that they had broken up, he'd been arrested twice. Once was for threatening to kill his neighbors and claiming that he was a Marine

And so like, I'm coming for you.

He was arrested for that. Then the other time and more recently,

“he was arrested because he refused to leave a bar”

that Joey's store was, it was next to Joe's. - What? - And so they were like, and then they find out that Victor Hansen lives in an apartment two miles away from Joey and Summer's old apartment.

- Oh, shit. - So they're like, oh, this guy's in the mix and nobody for sure is for sure. I don't understand it. But then there can noes that he's going to be suspect.

And so he calls the police preemptively and says, I understand they're missing. I just want to let you know this is where I was. - Yeah. - Here's all the people that can prove it

and it all proves out. So he has an alibi that seems to be solid. By August of 2010, the beginning of August of 2010, the family just starts taking all the mixed-aist stuff out of their house.

And then they see that, so Joey's company was called Earth Inspired Products, that was the custom-made water features. They see that the company is for sale for a million dollars and the CEO listed is Dan Cavanaugh, the webmaster.

- Shut the fuck up. - It's set up the email when the company first started. I'm not sorry, the website, so I'm so old. So basically, in this in people, magazine, investigative, they say that Dan Cavanaugh believed

that he was one of the main reasons that this water feature company got so successful because he made sure that anytime you searched custom water features or any, he was like one of those early Google manipulators

so that Earth Inspired Products ink would come up first, yeah, we were searching for that. And because of that, they got all this business

and he felt like he never got his fair share.

And they found old I ams of Joey and Dan, like fighting and Dan saying you owe me money. And so Joey ended up buying him a BMW. Just like, as a thank you for all your service and I'm doing well and you helped me.

- And they even don't get an idea. - Steven, the BMW's are too fast for you. - It's not hard. - It's not hard in the ass. And also they tracked that he had kept coming to Joey. This webmaster kept coming to Joey

and being like, lend me $50 bucks, let me $100 bucks, let me $200 bucks. So that, you know, they were like really starting to look at that guy and then he was like, I was on a surfing trip when that family just didn't look at that story.

Well, they, you know, it was the truth.

“But I think it's insane that he tried to fucking sell that company”

with himself as the CEO, like, sure. - Dude, what an idea. - What are you doing? - Red flag. - And also the case is still open, like, why would you put yourself out there?

So anyway, that basically all of those leads go cold,

the whole case goes cold for three years. Then on April 9th, 2013, basically because of that surveillance video? - Yeah. - With the one, which one? - Sorry, I bought the boarder with the family grainy from the back saying it's them.

The San Diego Sheriff's Department investigators announced that the mixed-day family left for Mexico voluntarily. - They're like, done, though. - So they come out and they're just basically, like, look, they're gone and we don't know what happened.

- They say goodbye. - They just went to Mexico. - So, I don't have frustrating for the family. - It's terrible, and also, so this is April of 2013. In November of 2013. - April to November, got it.

- Right. - And there? - A solid six months. - Okay. - Or so? - I don't know math.

“- I mean, we could just pause it and add it up, but why would we?”

- So, this is not this part, this is in a math spot, guys. - British math? - This is in a counting podcast. - But for fun sake, this is not a calendar podcast. Clearly, November 11th, 2013, okay. There's a guy writing in the desert, the Mojave Desert,

he's writing a motorcross area. - That's your new boyfriend. - It's to me, buttons, he wants to get back on the bike and just kind of experience the old time, sure. He's out there and he hits his tire, hits something weird,

he goes back, no, it's a human skull. - No. - Yes. - He calls 911, I'm pretty sure it's the real call that was on people magazine. - Shut up, what does he say, what does he say?

- He just goes, yeah, I'm running my motorcycle out here back behind the dump and I think I just found a human skull. - Holy shit. - Like, he just sounds like the most bummed out

- I'm just worried if I can top some wheelies. - Yeah, I'm just trying to have fun, like a kid because you know, how hard life can be sometimes. And I found a skull. - I bought a save some money and I bought this thing for myself

“'cause it brings me joy and it's the only thing”

I have, that brings me joy left. - And of course, death is around every corner. - Sure, and we all know that. - So, can I get some help out of here? - So, I found a skull, I'll have a portion of me.

- But now here's the thing, Jimmy Buttons, Exo, Exo.

The San Bernardino Sheriff's Office takes over, 'cause it's up, it's the where that skull is found, is up in the desert and it's not in, it's like, it's not San Diego Sheriff's Office anymore. - It's a different place. - And so San Bernardino's

to separate counties. - Different places. - So San Bernardino's like, yeah, we got this. - Everybody else can back it. - Yeah, you remember San Diego?

You were like, no, they walked away. - They walked into San Diego, San Bernardino's like, yeah, they're like, so we're on this and they send forensic investigators to the site including an anthropologist.

- Nice. - And they work all night and into the morning. And then the next day, November 15th, San Bernardino,

County Sheriff, John McMahon, identifies the bodies found

as Joseph, Summer, Joseph, and Johnny mixed in. The whole fuckin' family's been married.

“- How do they know it was them and they were digging?”

- Because the lots of bones were broken, but they had the dental records. And the dental records identified everybody. - But they wouldn't know to check the dental records until they knew what to check them against.

- Yeah, because there's two adult bodies. - And two child bodies. And two separate graves. - So tell me what happened. - So awful.

Okay, so the family's house has been sold. There's a new family living in the house. So the San Bernardino County Sheriff's want to go back in but then they're like, but anything that could have been in here that could have possibly been a clue is gone.

But the Azuzu Trooper is still in, I guess, somehow in police custody. So they go back and they fuckin' pull every ounce of forensic evidence that they can't out of it. And what they find is there is trace evidence

of Joey's business partner, Chase Merritt, in the fuckin' Azuzu Trooper. So they start to look into Chase Merritt's... - Chase Merritt's Merritt's Merritt's Merritt's. (laughs)

And as de- Merritt's, turns out he's next con with a mile-long rapture. - Oh, Chase, he's been chased down. - That's right. - So many words that are other words.

- Chase has come to an end, I don't know. - There's something there. - So he had served time for burglary grants after receiving stolen property. And he also had a gambling problem.

So as Joey's company was getting more and more successful, he was borrowing larger and larger sums of money from Joey, and by 2010 Chase Merritt, owed Joey over $30,000. - Holy shit.

- Yes, and when Summer found out that amount,

“that he owed, she was like, what the fuck are you doing?”

Like, that's too much money to buy in somebody, and that's crazy. - Yeah, and I think Joey was in that position where he had all this success, and all this money and everything was going great.

So all the people that came in were like, yeah, well, you owe me, because he'd be like, sure, here how much you need. And was really generous and just wanted everyone to be happy, like he was. - And it was like, he was grateful for everything he has

and so he's making sure he's paying it for paying. - It's a people who helped him, right? - Get it exactly. - And Chase Merritt's there going, well, I'm your business partner, I'm your guy,

and I just have this little please hold me over for a little while, I just need $10,000.

So basically, as they continue to look in,

they know Summer was really upset about that amount. She wanted to talk about it, like it was like a real issue. Then they look at Chase Merritt's phone records, and on the night, the mixed day family went missing. His cell phone was shown being used right near

where the bodies were found, and they found out that Merritt's sister lived close to that location as well. They had grown up, it was, I think, near Victorville was like Mojave Desert somewhere, basically that's where he knew the area very well.

- So, why didn't they know that before? - I know. - They didn't look into it, I guess, because they were like, oh, they are Mexico, everything, that's fine. So then, I like to thank forensic accountants found this out,

but I don't know who did, it should have been done. - So I'm super exciting, wonderfully dressed, chic, hot, exciting, so cool. - Forensic accountants, find that Chase Merritt had written a company check for the amount of $21,000

after the mixed day's went missing. - Oh, shit. - Which is just fucking stupid.

- So, I would think that would be the last straw, but the chronology could be wrong.

“So any number of those things could have been the last job.”

- Sure. - Finding out that his sister lived nearby,

all those things, but basically they're like, oh, yeah, okay.

So on November 7th, 2014, San Bernardino County Sheriff's Investigators announced that they have arrested Charles Chase Merritt, and he's charged with four counts of murder in the mixed day's slings.

- Okay, so prosecutors alleged, Chase Merritt has a gambling problem. He killed the family for financial gain, and basically he wrote checks totally more than $21,000 on just a mixed day's business account

in the days after the family was killed, then he went on a gambling spree at nearby casinos. - Which one? - Marango, I bet I was Marango. - Oh, go Marango.

- Don't do it. - Where, of course, he lost thousands of dollars. - Yeah, on what? What do they gambling?

- Oh, pre-know, fucking life.

- Am I got full of machine? - High stakes, buffalo machines. - High stakes, buffalo, and fucking wheel of fortune. - It's just like that thing of anything else where you're like, so you couldn't stop playing fucking 21,

so you killed four people. - It's gonna kill little babies. - Like the cutest. - So, monster. - On January 30, 2015, Chase Merritt requests

to represent himself. - Always a good song. - Great idea, your fucking saying is shit. - He said he only had six to eight months to live that he couldn't afford an attorney and he had to represent himself.

- Oh, so this turns out is very sad for him. - I hate him so much. - So the trial is delayed because he keeps on firing these attorneys and he tries to represent himself.

I'm sure he can do it. February 2016, he had already gone through five attorneys. - Shit. - July 2017, his trial is tentatively set for September 25th, 2017.

A month later, a San Bernardino County superior court judge sets a November 13th, 2017 trial date. November 13th, 2017, the trial is way-- - Wait, that's like, come on, let's go. - Until February 23rd, the trial starts tomorrow.

The trial of Chase Merritt should be killed the McStay family starts tomorrow if they don't wave it again. - Holy shit. - Yeah, let's go to it.

- Dude, the cool thing about the way people magazine about cigarettes set up that thing was, I was like, oh, it's totally that ex-boyfriend. Clearly. - Yeah, yeah.

- Then you go, it's totally the way-- - Well, I'm like that too, which is anything I want. It's them, it's that, like, it's an ex-person. - But within that world, the police had so much work to do and so many people to like peel away.

The really awful thing though is this family, their Joey McStay had electrical cord around his neck, but the whole family was bludgeoned to death. - Oh my God. - And they found the, you know, the sledge hammer

where the bodies were buried. - How did he do it? - Right, and like, he, whoever did this, and if it was him or somebody else, sledge hammer to death of family,

like, it's a monster among us. It's so horrifying. - Oh my God. - Yeah.

“- It's just like, I think what always bothered me”

and I followed this case obviously not until recently because I didn't know that was going on, but I think when I found out that their bodies were found, I was like, I can't, this anymore because you didn't hear me so much about it.

- Yes. - Like, I knew what happened, okay, I'm done.

But I've always pictured, you know, their house

and the two bowls of popcorn, like little kid popcorn, on the couch, they had just sat there kids down so they could watch something on TV with some popcorn. - And the theory is that the parents could have a conversation with Chase.

- With the business partner to say, "Hey, you kid this can't happen anymore." - Not doing this anymore. - And he fucking lost it. - And he or he was like, oh, we should all go to a,

let's all go out to dinner. Or let's all, like, something to get everybody together in the car because, oh, yeah. - So what happened, it didn't happen in the house, 'cause there's no blood, there's nothing.

- Yeah. They don't end the defense attorneys in the beginning. We're trying to say that the prosecution is trying to say that the house is where the initial attack took place and because there's not a drop of blood there,

that can't, it must be wrong, or whatever. When obviously, there's, because there was no broken glass, there was no doors were broken, there was no forced entry, there was no sign of struggle. - They left of their own accord

with the business partner/friend that they thought everything was fine. - They trust you. - Yes.

“- So what do they, they don't know where the murder took place?”

But I think if he, I think it took place out in the desert,

and then drove them against their will.

- Because, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That like, but then, yeah, but then you wonder, like, if the dad had, then the rope run is neck, 'cause like, he probably would have fought if the dude brought out a gun and was like,

you're coming with me, so he subdued him somehow.

“- Yeah, I mean, because I think it's that thing,”

and all the people that are suspect, it's all these people that are, you're good friend, your business partner, the person you talk to every single day. So clearly, it's someone couldn't be more on the inside that turned, and the idea that this guy

has, like, a rap sheet of my long work. Clearly, he does not have a huge problem with ya. Breaking along, doing what he needs to do to get his. - Right. - I don't know, it's, I mean, it's fascinating.

And also just at the beginning, and that was years ago, he was like, oh, I only have six months to live. Or it's like, sorry, what? Like, where, he said he had, like, what? Cancer, some shit?

Like, at first his lawyers were like, yeah,

he's very unwell, and then he fires the lawyers, and he's like, I'm sick, I'm just gonna represent myself. - Like, it's just that whole psychopath thing of, like, this is about me and how hard it is. The struggles of my life.

- Yeah. - And nobody else matters, or counts. - So crazy.

“- So we'll have to keep our eyes peeled, and for sure.”

- See what happens in that case. - Fuck, man. - I know. - That's good, Karen. - Thank you.

- Well, I'm just, I don't wanna take credit for the worst fucking story. - You wanna trade credit for people magazine, investigate, but I will, 'cause man, that's a good show. - Shit.

- Well, that's creepy. I also printed up a picture of the leaves. (laughs) That was what I was trying to print last week, or the week we did.

- Oh, no, no. - It's just reminding you. - Yeah, 2010.

- Never forget about 2010.

- Well, shit. - Thank you. - For sharing that. - Of me. - Of me.

- Of me. - Okay, we're back. Karen, are there any updates? - There are updates for this one. On April 7th of 2018, Chase's attorney filed a motion

in San Bernardino Supreme Court claiming that Joey's business records were hearsay evidence, making them inadmissible. That trial began on January 7th, 2019, and then in June of that year,

he was found guilty and he was sentenced to death on January 21st, 2020. But there's a moratorium on the death penalty in California. So Chase is currently incarcerated at a correctional facility in San Diego,

and he has no eligibility for parole. He maintains his innocence. He says he's preparing a habeas petition to prove his innocence. He claims he was the victim of prosecutorial misconduct,

abusive discretion, judicial error, ineffective assistance to counsel. He's got a whole list of complaints. In 2025, the book down to the bone came out that details the murders and this trial.

So that's everything about the actual case. Also, we mentioned Jimmy Buttons during my story, and he, of course, got made into an MFM animated entitled Jimmy Buttons. And so you can go watch that on our YouTube channel

right now, youtube.com/exactly, right media. - All right, good job. - Okay, let's head back in for good things of the week. - Five of us, guys, is Parentholdton. - Shakita.

- Look and eating. - We have surprises. - We have surprises. Welcome to the sweet 305 podcasts where the group check comes to life. - What the f**k?

- You're the only person I know that loves I've always diverse. - Oh, I'm a maid. - Listen to sweet 305 with Melepons. Open your free, eye heart radio app, search sweet 305,

and listen now. - Patrol weekly is back with brand new stories. From threatening text messages disturbing a small Midwestern town, it was from an unknown number. Who else is getting these messages?

“Why did it start with us to long cons and stolen identities?”

- Who lies about being this sick? This was the last time I ever believed the word she said. - New voices, each with the courage to tell their own story. - He said I have been kidnapped.

- Okay, just trying not to know more. - He was essentially on the run. - Every family has secrets. - The rug had been pulled from underneath me. - Oh my God.

It was right in front of my face and I didn't even see it. - Listen to the trail weekly on the eye heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - It's Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. This season, we've got some awesome guests

Guests like Tiffany Haddish.

Kind of slide into people's DMs. - I like Bumble. - All right. - Girl farmers all lead dot com. - That states sales, funerals, options.

Are usually good, there's a lot of good made made grossary stores near GMs. - Darcy Cardin. - Remember being like, I know this is good advice, but I really don't want to do that.

- So you didn't take a review? - I didn't take a advice. - Are you still friends with that woman? - No. - She actually was kind of toxic.

(laughing) - Neil DeGrasse Tyson. - I spent my whole life looking up. I was a geek kid. I had a tall scope at age 12.

- And so... - So you didn't have sex for a long time. (laughing) - Cherry O'Terry, were you a soap opera person? - Young and restless.

- Okay. Well, first of all,

“you should know it's the young and the restless.”

I can't even believe you're misprasing it. - Some of us are abbreviated, because we've been so worried about you. (laughing) - T.S. Madison, are you into poly?

- No, no, I don't think so. - Oh, I could've told you, no, I'm not. - Girl, okay. - It's a poly. - Just based on what she's wearing

and the way her hair is styled. She was not in a poly. - That's right. - On a fairest day, Franco, Madeleine Klein. Hannah Gatsby, Adam Scott, Juan DeSikes, and more.

Listen to Dear Chelsea on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To wrap up the show, do you have some kind of a hooray? - I do have one. - Okay, you go first.

- Mine's stupid, I'll go first.

- Okay. - The other night I couldn't sleep, I was laying in bed thinking about the hometown murders and how crazy they've become.

“And I thought of another one that I want people to send in.”

So it's just a random, I want to hear this now. - Okay, okay, this is my hooray. - Great. - I will feel to send me, not me. I want you to send us at my favorite murder at Gmail.

Stories of how they found out after, like, grandpa died, we went through the fucking basement. - Yes, and that's how we learned. So there's this article in advice that I recently reread called My Grandma The Poisoner

by John Reed, that I say, everyone needs to read, but like one of those. - Yeah, we realized my grandma might be poisoning all of us, but we just acted like it was normal and like, don't eat grandma's food.

There's a real hard article. - What the fuck? - Yeah. - So it's one of those, what the fuck? How did we not know?

We found out this after I want those, those are our new hometowns that I want. - Please, right? - And if anything involves an attic. - An attic, we were going through a thing

and we found out, yeah, dot, dot, dot. - And a trunk, microfeesh, whatever it is. - And a lot of drawers. - Yeah, even if it's, and it doesn't have to be like murder, I'm just talking about like weird shit,

like we didn't realize this about my mom and tell, or whatever the fuck. - Yes, that's great, I love this. - That's a great idea. I was gonna say this, my hooray for this week,

is these fucking kids from that high school in Florida who are standing up and fucking taking the mic away from these inept fucking leaders of this country and the rotten shitty toxic adults that are so fucking greedy that they don't care

about human life anymore and they are taking it back. I am so proud that the way they're handling themselves and I just wanna say to all these kids that are watching other kids be this empowered and just know, this is the world needs you so bad right now

because these adults have gone insane and you are the voice of reason. And anyone trying to tell you, you can't talk or you're being over emotional, you don't have to listen to any of those old fucks at all

and you can do, you're not over emotional, your opinion matters more than other people's because once you stand on the other side of a fucking AR15 and almost die in your high school, you get to say what you think about gun control

“and your opinion matters and you have to,”

you don't be stopped by fucking closed doors of senators and governors don't be stopped by internet trolls, don't fucking fall for any of that shit and do what you know is right because those old fucks are locked up in greed

and they're locked up in fucking shitty. Like they don't even know what they've gone insane, truly and we need you so badly right now. So, congratulations and I'm so sorry but also fuck yet like rise up children.

- Yes and even the people who, the teenagers who you haven't had a shooting at your school yet, to me the thought, you know, I graduated the year before Colin Bine and now the thought of going to a high school and knowing every fucking day that that could happen

is terrifying to me and I'm not my school. So, everyone who's in high school and in college and in these, in these situations like why, why is the world the world's school shooting so normal?

- Yeah, it shouldn't be. - No, it's all these kids who need to fucking do something and you're totally right and it's not just the fucking people it's the adults as someone who's 37. We stop giving a shit and we go fucking dead in the brain

and we don't know what we're, what to do. - Yes, so we need you so badly. It's your fucking future, we support you. I saw something today that was like schools are fucking threatening to suspend students.

- Yeah, I got suspended in high school, guess what? It doesn't fucking matter. - Not only does it not matter, but guess what? If you get shot by a fucking AR15 because some fucking, all right, racist piece of shit

runs through your school trying to shoot people, it won't matter, suspended or not.

This is a, we are at a really crucial time

where these kids are doing your standing up and going, "No fucking more because we almost died." They're not spoiled little activists children. - Yeah, they're not, like, these pieces of shit that are trying to talk shit about them.

They are people who say survived and be now have a clarity that you can only get when you fucking almost get killed.

“Where you step forward and go, "I know what matters,”

"I know it doesn't matter." And I'm about to tell you something. And these old men that run this country, they're so obsessed with being in a fucking yacht club that they don't give a shit about human life.

That generation is dying off. - I mean, I can't imagine how fucking scared the NRA is that they're coming after them. I am so fucking, we are fucking rooting for you where it behind you.

- And also, you're 17, a lot of you are 17 or up in that area.

In one year, you can start fucking changing every day.

- Yeah. - And you mean, time your shit's gonna be expunged. So just fucking get out there. - Yes. - And keep going on social media, keep going on social media.

Keep going on social media. You know how to do that. They don't know how to do it. Just communicate on social media. There was that brilliant thing where people started

to try to accuse one of those survivors of being a crisis actor.

“And he fucking came back on Wolf Blitzer”

and was like, "If any of you saw me "in our high school productions of Fiddler on the roof, "you would know I am not a crisis actor." They were like, "How genius are these? "They're all trained by TV.

"They're all trained by social media. "They know how to do this thing. "They don't need fucking old people telling them "what to do anymore."

And they don't need pieces of shit like school people going,

"Oh, you'll get suspended." Hey, guess what? We're tired. They're saying we're tired of dying. - Yeah.

- My sister has lived on the front lines of school shooting culture since it started. And she has a teacher. When people were saying, "Teacher should walk out. "Teacher should be armed."

- Right. - My sister goes, "How come we have to fucking do everything?" This is bolt-like town. Teachers aren't gonna be armed. This is a school.

“That what we need is less guns, not more.”

- Right. - That the fantasy of arming everybody to the teeth. Did you see that thing online where they showed a picture of moments before Ronald Reagan got shot?

And there's just all these arrows to all the ECA going. Good guy with a gun, good guy with a gun. Good guy with a gun. And he's still got fucking shot. He was surrounded on every side.

So drop the fantasy that arming everybody is the answer and start looking at the fact that this country has too many fucking guns. Wait, what am I saying anything? Let's just listen to them.

- We're not, and the thing too, and I've gotten an allowed fight with my mom and a fucking fancy pizza restaurant about this is we're not trying to take away fucking the sky, Eric's fucking gun.

His fucking 22. - Have it fine. - Right. - Basic fucking regulations, especially on automatic fucking rifles.

- Yes. - Automatic weapons and fucking army grade fucking assault. - Right, well it's just basic fucking regulations in the same way drivers license do. In the same way, you and I would have to fucking have

if he wanted to get an abortion or wanted to get birth control. - Yeah. - Like what the fuck is the difference? - Yeah. - And it's a big, big money.

- Lots of money, you've been fucking brainwashed. - Yes. - And if you're not on the side of fucking protecting children, then you're on the wrong side and you need a fucking know that. - Yes.

And that idea, the threat of they're coming for our guns is like an NRA based fantasy of this government takeover. Like your boys in office, like you can let go of. They were saying if we just got rid of 100,000 guns, there would still be 300,000 in the mix.

Like this is a, it's a fucking crisis, it's a real process. - I've been worrying about it and worrying about it and to see fucking teenagers actually doing something about it is it's overwhelming to me to see it happening and someone doing something about it and all we can do

is say that we support it. - And a percent. - Please keep going and please know that you, the fight,

- Right, but we're talking.

- But we're talking. - Not teenagers who support it as well. - Exactly. - What we can do is get behind it.

“- As we said, as James Patterson said murder is forever,”

you fucking lose your 14 year old in a school shooting, the fucking end, look around your house, look around your family and say, who am I willing to lose so that somebody else can have a gun? Because I bet you that answer is fucking no, but it's totally fine

for these other families to lose babies, to lose children in the hallway of their high school. That is bullshit. We need to start golden rolling some shit in this country. We need to take back this like,

I got mine too bad for your family. Like, and guess what, these kids are the ones that are gonna do it. - I'm fucking, I'm in a fire. - I'm in awe.

- I'm in fucking awe of these kids. - God bless. - God bless them. (machine whirring) - And we're back.

“Okay, so this episode originally was entitled Project Artichoke,”

one of the greats. What if we were nitting it today, based on something we said in the episode?

Maybe we would call it third and final.

(laughing) Last apology ever. - I really miss yelling at the audience and being rude to people on Twitter. Those days are so far behind me now.

- Aww. - Oh, also, RIP George, we could name it fiercely private dog, which people really took to when I declared that she was fiercely private, even though I'm the one that posted the video of her.

- That became a shirt. That was so important. I feel like we have to and George's name call it fiercely private dog. We could do Jimmy Buttons, of course.

- Yes, classic. - Yeah.

- Or never forget about 2010.

- When you guys remind me how I fucked up. - Yep. - Never forget. - Never. All right, well thank you guys for listening here

and what is it? 2026. Let's go back to 2018 to say goodbye. (dramatic music) Stay sexy.

- And don't get murdered. - Goodbye. - Goodbye. - Elvis, you want cookie? - Wah, good boy, good boy.

- Good boy. - On August 4th, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died. Then the rumors started and she died again. And now, we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe actually died,

the third way. I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast, Hollywood Land, I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe

from the reality underneath them. Hollywood Land is part of the exactly right network. Listen to new episodes every Monday on the High Heart Radio Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

- The trail weekly is back with brand new stories from threatening text messages disturbing a small Midwestern town. - It was from an unknown number. Who else is getting these messages?

“Why did it start with us to long cons and stolen identities?”

- Who lies about being this sick? This was the last time I ever believed the word she said. - Listen to the trail weekly on the High Heart Radio app. - Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - It's Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea.

This season, we've got some awesome guests ready to do a lot of advice. Guests like Tiffany Haddish, kind of sliding to people's DMs. - I like Bumble, also a girl farmer's only.com. - That's states, sales, funerals, options.

Are usually good, there's a lot of good, man-made grocery stores near GMs. - Darcy Cardin, Cherio Terry, Ana Ferris, Dave Franco, Madeline Klein, Adam Scott, T.S. Madison, and more. - Listen to Dear Chelsea on the High Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.