Apple Sues OpenAI, States Move to Block Paramount Deal, and McConnell Conspiracy Theories

The future of law is agentec, not just tools that assist, but AI agents that navigate complex matters.

“That's why Harvey created agents that can do the work from end to end.”

They build a plan, pull from the secure data sources, run sub agents in parallel, and draft work product ready for your review. So you can delegate work and own the judgment. Trust it by more than 60% of the AM, law 100, and leading Fortune 500 legal teams, Harvey is an AI operating system designed specifically for legal work. Harvey, AI tailored for law, learn more at harvey.ai. If you've seen the sun, you may just get burned, but some people are willing to take that chance.

There is this certain degree of nihilism of like, "Oh, well the world is bad anyway, why would it I just also get a tan tan maxing?" That's this week, unexplained it to me. Find new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. There aren't many guarantees in life, but for a long time, one of them was that your office coffee was horrible. But then along came this machine called The Curric, which promised to make you exactly the cup you wanted, just for you, every single time.

This week on version history, our chat show about old technology, we tell the whole story of The Curric, from its remarkable invention to the vast environmental problems it caused to its long, long journey to try and figure it all out.

That's version history wherever you get podcasts.

Do you have chest hair? I don't recall it, you don't have chest hair. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast. Now I'm Karis Wisher. And I'm Scott Kalloway. Scott, I'm interested in why you took Ed to the game and not me.

Explain where you were, I'm teasing. Well it's 'cause I like Ed more, yeah, yeah explain where you were. You know we interest a world cup. I would have gone, had I been asked, I would have considered it. Uh, do you want to go on Wednesday to Atlanta?

No, I don't. Okay, so I don't can be shit there. You want to fly there? Well I, you know, last minute I can't get places like you can.

Um, I just want to be what you did to sell people where you are because you were quite, you look the happiest I've ever seen you.

I have to tell you. I might have been the happiest I've ever, or I've been in a while. Oh, look, I have no interest in sports. I decided consciously, I used to play a lot of golf because when you're in your 30s and trying to run a strategy firm

“and you're basically running your brain to old white guys and on the CEOs, you have to play golf every weekend.”

Right. That's the only, anyways, and I decided about 20 years ago, I was going to pour all the time I was spending on golf in the fitness. And I've played sports in college, but I, I have no interest in professional sports. I think it's mostly a waste of time. Every four years, I go crazy for the World Cup.

And this one has been the most special of the three because the way I describe the World Cup right now is it's a bunch of cousins who just love each other. And their parents are out of town and they're doing a sleepover despite the fact that parents don't get along. Oh, okay. And I think when you're sitting in that stadium, and I went through a lot of logistics and costs to get from Italy to Hard Rock Stadium and Miami and Fines. I didn't know what that was, yeah.

It was Miami. Two friends in my youngest. But when you're in that stadium and 70,000 people are singing in a harmony, sweet Caroline, which is associated with team England. And then we all included English fans. Hey, dude.

“Well, the sweet Caroline began in the game.”

Hey, dude at the end. And our dude building him, which is in my opinion, the man of the tournament. But, and then everyone, including the team England fans, start rowing, which is the Norwegian signature. Yeah. And when Norwegian Airlines, living up to their bat, changed their logo to British hairways.

Yeah. It's like all of the goodwill that is resident in the world appears to be bubbling up in the world. Also, good man. I mean, the Norwegian guys. I'm sorry.

They didn't win. Because I liked his whole act, his whole handling. Dude, belling him. Every time he leaves the field, he honors his mother. He's talking about mental health.

I mean, I'll do this. I'll do a longer die. I drive on this next week. But I struggle as a lot of people do. You know, it's like healthy masculinity.

It's like porn. We know it. We just don't have to describe it. What's happening in the world cup right now? And you'd reference this with the nicks is pretty damn close.

Yep. It's no 100. It's the same thing. Strength, generosity, understanding how to lose, you know, talking about mental health, talking about mental health.

Mental health. Yeah. Being affectionate with each other, getting along with their enemies. You know, it's just, it's just cooperation, excellence.

I call it, I call it unugly.

It's not, there's not a bit of ugliness. And I have to say, I can. 100%. Unugly. There's so much ugliness.

And we'll be talking about a lot of that today. But I just, I, it's really lovely. I mean, I just, I'm only going to miss the Norwegian. That's all I just think he's what's his name, Harland or Holland. Holland.

Yeah. He's amazing. I have to say he looks like he could kill. He'd like he'd be the person on the, on the bad end of a maze. If you were living in the medieval times.

But he actually is just like so adorable. And in, in, in really lovely ways.

Just so kind, like, just a kind, large man, which is really a great juxtaposition.

“I think anyway, I'm glad you had a good time.”

So you're going to the semis and the finals? I don't know if I can get to the semis. I'm going to try. I'm trying to see if I can just work it out logistically. Because it's an Atlanta, but I'm going to the final.

But you're talking about Holland, who plays for Man City. Yeah. When you're watching it, if you know anything about football and you're rooting for the other team, you can't relax because this guy is like a great white shark. Just lurking out there, waiting to explode.

And we have our own guy on team England. It's a enormous guy who was able to neutralize him. But yeah, it's just fantastic. I'm enjoying it so much. You look very happy.

You look very happy. You look pretty good. You look pretty good. Really great time. Relaxed is what I, I perceived it.

“There's some other not so happy things going on.”

We're going to get to the 12 attorney general's suing parent for the, against the paramount merger. Just dropped, we're going to talk later. And I'm going to talk to attorney general of California, Rob Bonta later.

But we first have to start with South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham died from a tear

on a say at your to apparently, according to preliminary findings from the DC medical examiner, Graham passed away on Saturday at age 71 a day after returning from trip from Ukraine, where he was getting some stuff done. President Trump spoke to Graham hours where he died, he said he was tired, but wanted to pass the save a merit, of course, I'm sure he did not say that.

The scramble to replace Graham in the Senate and the short term of long term is underway. We're recording this before the South Carolina Governor Henry McMaster announces who is pointing to the seat. That's happening in a few hours. Trump wants it to be Graham's sister. Nancy May says she's not pursuing an interim appointment, but would be remiss if she didn't look at running for the seat.

Treasury Secretary Scott Basin is also reporting fielding calls to run. They can't really use house people because the house is such a thin margin if they pull some from the house. It was pretty shocking because everyone was sort of focused on Mitch McConnell, who offered proof of life on Sunday after weeks of speculation. It's whereabouts in health McConnell released a statement in a photo where he's holding.

It's not proof of near death. A lot of people don't think that photo is they think it's AI, which is how it would tend to agree. I've talked to a lot of experts. He said a fall led to his hospitalization. He's in rehab and will be returning to the Senate quite yet.

As you say, biology is undefeated, but there's still so much success around this guy. Like what's happening with him. He's not running for real action.

“And I think he wants to stay around, at least, so that the the Democrat.”

Republicans get to a point as opposed to the Democratic Governor. No, no, the Democratic Governor has to appoint a Republican. The Democratic Governor gets to a point. It's just has to be a Republican as they pass this law. That now the Democratic Governor might push back on and say it's unconstitutional to do. He could point Thomas Massey, by the way, FYI, which would be something.

So I don't think, you know, it's just what a mess. I mean, obviously, Lindsey Graham was not that old. 71 is not old. I talked to Jeff. I had dinner.

I'm in San Francisco with Jeff last night. And he said, you know, he apparently had some chest pains and was ignoring them for a little bit. And or had some discomfort. And this is something that just happens. It's what John Ritter died of.

Yeah, it certainly if he had had had been diagnosed. They could have done something about it. But a lot of people, this can kill people really quickly. Any thoughts? A lot of thoughts here.

Look, the internet's gone crazy with conspiracy theories. So I have what technically qualifies as a conspiracy theory because it's in the fringe now, because social media can make money off of it. And that is the 71-year-old male who is out of shape, traveling in under constant stress.

How to heart attack and die. I just don't, that's my theory here. And, and the larger point, and I'm going to come back later in the show to Senator Graham when we do wins and fails. But the larger point is that one of the things that really curses the world right now

and causes chaos, oppression, authoritarianism is can be reverse engineered to really old people that won't fucking leave. Yeah, I like how you're pushing your hand on the desk. Yeah, I'm just, yeah. No, he's not 71-71-old.

I mean, I wouldn't. It is. I mean, you can, to fly to Ukraine and back and understand TikTok.

Yeah, he didn't want to go.

“The average age of the of an American is 38th.”

The average age of our senators is 65. Watching Mitch McConnell frees up. We're talking about a 71-year-old man have a heart attack as if it was clearly done by the Russians of the Iranians. This isn't a story about Mitch McConnell.

Right, for people who don't know one of the conspiracy theories was Russia. It's a story about American political system that refuses to make room for the next generation. Yeah. If we got rid of tomorrow, if we decided globally, anyone over the age of 70 has announced a retirement, oh, you get rid of Netanyahu, you get rid of Putin, you get rid of Trump,

you get rid of Biden, you get rid of these people on the Supreme Court that aren't even writing their own briefs anymore. They're just political ideologues.

A third of the faculty at I work with the best faculty in the world.

A third of them should be put on a nice flow. This is what like 65 you're saying, right? Because the 65 is for the New York Times. 65 is for general, so I think. Okay.

I'm just curious. I'm curious. I'm curious. Like 72, 70. Okay.

Well, I want to find a group of neurologists. Mitt Romney had it perfectly. The guy looks 50 years old. He looks like an Abercrombian fish model. But he's about to turn 80.

And he's cited that by the time you're 80, he parts of your brain have shrunk by 10 or 15%. We don't need presidents falling asleep and briefings. We don't. Do you remember the same bullshit?

I watch. I get served the clips because they know an outrage. Me of the CNN show. I feel stupid or with Abby Phillips.

The basically the pattern is they've figured out they have a cheat code

from massive viewership. They have essentially. The chief propagandists with a Trump administration say something just ridiculous and then a bunch of off off Broadway progressives go fucking insane. And they get.

“I think it's the highest rate it show on on CNN.”

They have Scott Jennings say something ridiculous, right? And in sendiery and stupid. And then he said he said out of conversation with them. Scott, you are lying. The same conversation I bet he had with Senator McConnell's

the conversation I had with my father and hospice the last 14 months. And that is I would say something and my dad didn't know who I was or where he was. It is so. Do you think it just think about it logically for God's sakes? All this tumult all this doubt if he managed to if he could.

If they were capable of pumping them full of stimulants and just getting a 15 second.

Voice recording honoring his friend Senator Graham's path. He didn't say anything. They're very close. That was unusual. Because clearly he can't care.

Yeah, the picture was odd. I have to say I think the issue is is was astonishing and some of it funny. I hate to say it was all the means and everything around Lindsey Graham. Obviously, there's a lot of talk about his sexual sexuality. Which was, you know, people are like, it's too main.

I'm like, oh, just let the world do what it wants. But the meaming that's going on here and then the conspiracy theories are really heavy. Like, there's some would heavy with Graham about whether he was killed by the Russians or poison or this and that. And then McConnell forget it. It's now like open.

It's really fascinating. I'm curious if you think it's a good thing or bad thing. Like, these, these, these, the memeology and those, the conspiracy theories and everyone looks at the picture and is where is the thumb? Is it really AI? Is it AI generated? Like, it really just nobody believes anything.

Nobody believes and even the believable stuff is unbelievable if that makes sense. Well, conspiracy theories, they're more novel. Unfortunately, we've attached a profit incentive to conspiracy theories, which feels harmless and fun, but it essentially attacks our institutions that there's no one that's believable anymore. And we don't defer to our institutions.

And so I, I think it, there's an underlying, because the problem with this conspiracy theory is that, oh, mRNA vaccines, all tier DNA, is that if you see it enough because it's not only algorithms,

“elevated beyond its organic reach, you should have the right to say conspiracy theories.”

The issue is should social media companies that have a profit incentive to, if they elevate a beyond its organic reach, you then normalize conspiracy theories. They then become less outrageous and then they become self-evident. And that's the problems that a lot of these fringe theories become normalized when they ordinarily wouldn't have, because we've attached a profit incentive to, to conspiracy theories.

The, the broader point about Mitch McConnell into Senator Graham is that this isn't about in these memes. It's not about mocking and aging man, aging comes for all of us. The failure belongs to us, the people, and the institutions to keep insisting that octogenarians should be making the highest stakes decisions in the world. And leadership in both parties increasingly resembles the board of a company that forgot that succession planning is part of a damn job. And every CEO is told in their final responsibility that they need to leave the company stronger than they found it.

We've somehow decided the goal is to die with your hand on the steering wheel and take people out with you. And experience matters, wisdom matters, but so does energy, cognitive sharpness, the willingness to pass the baton. Yeah, but it's a, it's a game here. It's a game to keep him in place even if he's weekend at Burney's, right, even if he's like, That's why we need eight limits, Karen.

“That's right, I know I agree, but that's what's happening here because the, the numbers.”

He's not going to be able to pass the save act now because it's so tight, right? And it's just nothing's going anywhere and that's, that's what they're doing here is trying to like, Game the system whether not letting Bashir do his job or whatever and in the house, the same thing. And you know, it's all gaming. It's all gaming and it doesn't matter if you have to prop up an old man.

But and you do start to believe it. I looked at that picture and I was like, that looks funny. Looks like he had a face lift there, right? Like, but then is it true? I think it's fake.

I'm going to be clear. I'm part of the 10-poil. I think it's fake. I don't know. I don't, I just, I definitely am like, "Ha, sus." You know, I actually, like, I literally was like, text that Harvey Levin and said,

"The Republic is up to you to get in that hotel." I mean, that hospital room and get us a real video of something. I mean, I can't believe no reporters can figure this out. And we have to rely on Scott Jennings. I agree with you. Well, let me just ask you an honest question.

Let me ask you not, just a question that would require any semblance of logic. Given the tumult, given the doubt, given the, given the power,

if he just recorded, not even a video, a 10-second voice memo.

It's gone too far. He's got a wheeled out in front of us. It would solve so many of his and the Republican Party's problems. And he clearly can't even do that. Right. I would agree with you. I think if they wheeled them out in front of, or in the hospital,

and he said, "I'm really sick and I'm trying to get better." That would solve it, but they won't do it. You're right, because they can't do it. That's exactly right. To me, let me just wrap up because I do think that if the world would be such a better place of Netanyahu Trump, Ginsburg Biden had been forced to leave at a certain point.

And the thing about America is we don't have an age problem. We have an incentive problem. We reward in comancy, celebrity, and fundraising over renewal. And the result is a government that too often looks like it's being run by people who remember the cold war better than they understand AI.

“If you want democracy, you have to believe in the importance of turnover.”

The best leaders don't prove their greatness by never leaving.

They prove it by building a bench that's ready to replace them. Enough. Think about how much... For God's sake, what would the world look like if we had more Zelensky and I'll even go mom Donnie and we had more youth for God's sake? I would agree. And then they could do it out, right? Then they could do it out.

I don't have that. I'd like them to have their conversation with you. I'm going to move on because we have to go to that. But Graham Platner has speaking of young, trying to get a young vibrant person and is officially withdrawn from the main Senate race for an accusation of sexual assault among other troubling revelations from his past, which we had discussed.

There was a point where he said, if it goes further than this, then forget it. Democrats have until July 27th, the name of replacement to challenge Republican senators, Susan Collins, actually the Democrats chances went up with Platner coming up because he was declining. The main Democratic Party will hold a convention on July 25th, where candidates can make their case to delegates for a nomination.

Let's hear a clip we got from Axios Reporter Holly Otterbine, who's been covering the race and how things stand.

Now the Graham Platner is finally out of the race.

Main Democrats are scrambling to find a new nominee by the end of the month. A whole boatload of candidates have jumped in about a half dozen and most of them either ran for Governor or Senate earlier this year and lost. One of my biggest takeaways from the race has been shaping up so far is the Graham Platner is still having an enormous influence on the race.

Now, granted, nobody wants his endorsement, but a lot of them almost all of them to a person sound like Graham Platner. One of the biggest examples that I can point to is a man named Dan Kleban. He's a brewer. He's actually centering his campaign around voting against Chuck Schumer for a majority leader,

a promise to do that. So I think that this shows that the main Democratic candidates have really internalized that the Democratic base is furious or angry at the economy. They're angry at Trump, they're angry at their party.

“And that's what this Platner Mania was all about and that in order to win,”

that's what they've got to replicate. That's very smart. Obviously, we were wrong about Graham Platner.

but if more came out, it would be a real problem. That's exactly what happened.

“In this scenario, what it matters because it is about control of the Senate,”

and they have a very good chance of grabbing this seat if they do it right. Look, I don't know. As Democrats do, we're more interested in self-flatulation than actually figuring out how to take control of the Senate. And I would argue, I would argue the Democrats largely got a right here,

when he had a cotton-conf tattoo came to light. As a Jew, I found that really troubling. Having said that, a guy in the military dodging IEDs had made a mistake, and I saw no pattern of anti-Semitism. I wasn't willing to disqualify him and say, it's an anti-Semite,

because I saw an errand mistake. I didn't see a pattern. Then a woman said he was physical with her. Very disturbing. She, in the middle of a campaign, was a Republican operative.

All right. I think it was fair to say there's an asterisk around that accusation. When I was on holiday last week, and I heard about this additional accusation of rape, I immediately went to YouTube and watched it within about five seconds.

She's telling the truth he needs to drop out immediately. I mean, it was just, quite frankly, it was just, and he did, or let me read this way. He's still trying to hold on to his power.

Basically, Democrats now are saying,

how do we find Graham Platinum minus the rape part? They're all trying to find a rough, you know, an oyster brewer or whatever you want to call it, tatted up that does, you know, the drinks, Pap's blue ribbon or whatever.

But now what we're doing is the following. We're instead of focusing our energy on how we actually hold ourselves to a higher standard, and we'll exit and offer it in people like this. Again, I'll go back to my favorite show on CNN.

Scott Jennings said, they asked him, do you think Platinum should have resigned from the race? And he said, if there's corroborating evidence

“around this type of activity, sure, you should resign.”

Okay, the ultimate corroboration in our society around situations that have dramatic gray areas, context, nuance, you weren't there, is the following. We put them in front of 12 people from different backgrounds. Different viewpoints.

You can't really get the prosecution have input into the, to the jurors we have the defense. The president of the United States was found civilly liable for sexual abuse. So the notion that Democrats are spending more energy

with this weird self-examination, as opposed to focusing their energy on how we will actually take a people who run a yellow light versus the double murder homicide and that's what they're saying.

So you're saying, what are you saying? Okay, so what do they do here? It looks like they're going to pick one of these, a logger or a brewer or whoever. They're going to get one of these people.

What is the move here from, from, from, from, from, projection. I'm, you know, weird way all this, all this ridiculousness around holding onto the land of the dead with McConnell and the fact that it's not unusual

for 71-year-old man who's out of shape to drop dead. That's, that happens folks. I think it's going to help us. I'm more optimistic about the seat

“because I think they're going to find somebody”

who has a lot of chest hair who says the right thing, who can tap into this movement hopefully platner, platner started or tapped into this movement.

I actually think he might be powerful on the campaign trail

for the new person or whoever that is. You think, just, keep him out. No, keep him out. I mean, especially including his advisors. Did you see that interview with the two?

Oh, my God. What's that crange? They're going in here. What's that voice called with a, a fucking voice? Oh, my God.

I'm like, they're going out to the many seats. Is this a democratic party? At the first, when I, when I saw those two, I'm like, oh my God, we're fucked. That's just running the democratic party now.

I mean, the whole thing was just like, oh my, how, they just decided on this guy and didn't do any vetting. That looks like an any vetting whatsoever. I mean, this guy seems to have just, you know,

at one point a friend of mine, Lou Garcia, Navarro, it interviewed him for the New York Times. And he goes, she goes, is there anything else? And he goes, no. Like, and of course, there was lots else.

Like, and that was pretty the second part,

which was a lot of people saying he was, you know, a pig. And then then there was a third part. This guy's. You're right. He should just exit the stage.

He should just go away right now. But I do think, I think the aging, quite frankly, it's going to shine a light on Susan Collins, who is 76. And quite frankly, looks 86. It, it, it, I mean, enough all right.

Enough all right. I'm not bad. I'm not bad. This is a layup.

What did you go up there?

Do you have chest hair? I don't recall. You don't have chest hair, do you? Oh my God. Are you kidding?

They need to find a candidate that like, that has, you know, pieces of more masculine men in their craft than me. Yeah. They need to find a dude who, this is a problem. The Democrats are not a lady.

I'm not a lady. I'm just going to be very honest. I know that I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you.

It has to be a guy. Let's be smart, not politically correct. Find a fucking, find a fisherman who hasn't raped people. Right. Find a log or anything.

That's okay. If I'm my work. If I'm my work.

Well, I, the fact that the Democrats clear the field for Janet Mills,

they, that to me was a judge who, or fuck up. Like, clear it for an older lady who did a very good job was, like, was not palatable to voters because of age and other issues. That's the problem. This Democrats, there could have been a really great race here,

and they didn't, but let's hope there is one now. Okay. Let's go on a quick break. We come back. Apple suits open AI.

This is a corker. This is appetizer content from Harvey AI. We have a choice over who we work with and who we don't, specifically who we allow to advertise and who we don't. And for those of you who watch my content,

I am not an AI catastrophist. I'm an AI optimist. I think it's going to create more jobs. And it destroys.

“And I think our job as professionals is to figure out how to leverage these tools.”

AI, more than almost anything I do in terms of what I could point to for real, economic leverage and savings is 100% in the legal fields. Harvey is the AI designed specifically for legal work, trusted by leading law firms and enterprise legal teams. All right.

So now I'm looking at their demo. It plugs into tools that lawyers already work with. Lexus, Nexus, Microsoft. And this is a key and I do this internally with my LLMs. With permissions that lets you look at the firm's own files and databases.

So here it's answering a question, reads the complaint, pulls the relevant terms, checks the web, weighs the evidence, and traps the response. But it also can do this in a shared workspace between the firm and the client. So they both have visibility into the working,

done and can both have value to it. I think this space is clearly sort of hand in glove for AI. All right. So there's no doubt about it. This I think is going to be super helpful.

Not only for law firms themselves, but internally for general counsels and companies. Harvey is AI tailored for law. You can learn more at Harvey.ai. Support for this show comes from NetSuite. When the competition is moving faster in business and every sector

“or starting to adopt AI, how do you even begin to keep up?”

NetSuite next. You probably know NetSuite. The AI powered business management suite that securely connects all of your data. It's a unified suite that brings your financials and inventory commerce HR and CRM into a single source of truth trusted by over 43,000 customers.

NetSuite next is the next usually if in how business gets done, because AI is built to everything you do. It automatically surfaces custom insights throughout your day. AI agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work. And anytime you have a question about anything,

just ask like you're talking to a colleague. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite next where your business meets AI. For the first time ever, you can try NetSuite next for free.

If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to netSuite.ai/pivot, build for every industry ready for every boardroom. NetSuite.ai/pivot. Support for this show comes from DeleteMean.

Most people's personal data is just floating around on the internet and in the age of AI, we're especially vulnerable to scammers using it against you. If you search yourself and found your home address, phone number or family members name,

you know it's unsettling, but the good news is DeleteMean can help. DeleteMean does all the hard work to wipe your personal information from data broker websites. It was named the top pick for data removal services by Wirecutter.

I've used DeleteMean for many years now, and all the recent reports have surprised me because of so much information out there about me and how careful I am with my privacy. And yet, data brokers continue to assemble all manner

of files about me and about family members and others

that I have always shocked by when I see it.

Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for DeleteMean. Now, a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your DeleteMean plan when you go to join DeleteMean.com/pivot and use the promo code Pivot at checkout.

“The only way to get 20% off is to go to join DeleteMean.com/pivot”

and enter the code Pivot at checkout. That's joinDeleteMean.com/pivot code Pivot. Scott, for back Apple is suing OpenAI

a company of stealing trade secrets to develop its own hardware to lawsuit file last Friday. Claims OpenAI asked job candidates from Apple to share details about secret projects and to bring device components and prototypes to interviews.

OpenAI is denying the accusation saying no interest in other companies' trade secrets during focus on building innovative technology that empowers people everywhere. Apple is asking for a jury trial and demanding OpenAI destroyed proprietary material and paid damages.

This is something else. This is right in Steve Jobs's playbook. Similarly, when Apple was filing suits against Android companies, it'll be really interesting. Also, I'm going through the whole thing.

OpenAI is number two executive. Its fidgety CMO is going to have a big role when the company went public just stepped down for health reasons. Elon, of course, is loving this.

He posted about Sam Altman on X. He takes scamming to a whole new level. He calls in scam Altman to which Sam replied, "Homeboy, you're the one selling public market investors on short term space data centers.

Elon then responded after stealing an open source. AI charity then stole all of Apple's phone technology. Wow." And by the way, SpaceX shares a really dropping below almost below their IPO price.

So what a fucking mess. Let's dig into it, Scott. Many things that are happening here. OpenAI's had, I mean, the hits keep on coming and not good hit. It's a hot mess of a company.

I mean, they're being sued every which way but loose.

“They've had, I think they're had a safety just resigned.”

They did, yeah. They shelved their IPO because it's clear the money furnace. I mean, I feel and I'm writing a post on this.

For the first time, I'm like, okay, this is 99.

And if you remember 99, it was first there was B to C went. We knew the technology was going to survive, but there wasn't enough demand on the front end. So the pets.com and the Amazon got cleared out first.

You know, or went down 90%. And I'm like, but wait, we believe in the technology, so it must be about B to B. And then when that didn't work, we went to the infrastructure place.

Opening eye and anthropic have both, it looks like delayed their IPO's. All of a sudden, look like a supply crisis. Remember just a few weeks ago,

we were talking about the RNN of data centers, there's not enough energy. All of the front end, creating the demand. The majority of it has flipped to supply,

because they weren't creating enough demand on the front end. All of a sudden, X-A-I and meta have said, wait, we don't have to demand,

we thought, on the front end, we're going to flip to supply.

“So I think the cracks are really beginning to run.”

Because then the supply will go down. You have Alex Carp and others, like Microsoft CEO, Sachin Adell is saying, hey, these AI companies are stealing your business.

They're analyzing, handing it over to them. Let's become competitors. That's a really interesting new wrinkle too. They're going to steal your things.

Of course, people who have stolen things are telling you they're going to steal your things. So yeah, I agree with you. Something is about to break, I feel.

I mean, it just feels like very precarious. What if I would use the expression? Oh, this is, this is,

I feel like we're in Q3 Q4 of 99 right now. And just to get back to the case, Tan is accused of coaching employees on how to circumvent Apple's data security policies and encouraging them to bring confidential

parts to interviews. If they have the goods on that, that's really bad. Oh, my God. An engineer Chang Lu allegedly kept his apple laptop

and exploited a bug to download files, texting LOL so funny. An Apple stated that OpenAI has had to take unlawful shortcuts while under mounting pressure to deliver

its first commercial hardware products.

So if this was one of the AI players going after the other, but when Apple goes after you, and not only that, this is going to get a lot of attention.

It's quite frankly, this is going to snare. The strafe is going to hit Johnny I, who is a bit of a iconic legend there. It's like people,

he was mounting a device company with OpenAI that then had its own accusations. He started a device company. It was acquired by OpenAI for six and a half, seven billion dollars.

“The majority of which I think will be written off.”

I think that will prove in terms of right-offs. But I think Johnny I was a genius and like an icon and deserves all of the accolades. That will go down as arguably, do worst acquisition of the last few years

because I think they're going to have to write off the entire thing. And the interesting thing will be what the legal remedies will be because it will take months or years

depending on how quick OpenAI is to settle. However, it's going to have an immediate impact on the business. The device is expected to be unveiled this year. This gives them the excuse to care.

And this is my prediction for later in the week.

The device is never going to happen.

Yeah, same thing with their browser, apparently. They're better than that. It was interesting, because remember when this happened it was like, oh, Apple just gave OpenAI a real lift and then the deal degenerated into nothing.

Like, really. And now accusations of stealing. It's, there's such a hot mess. Like every day, every with someone leaves. People I think are quite well regarded leave.

I think the number two executive really had health issues

But, but it seems like, what do they do now?

And of course, Elon then looks like, well, I just, just because a scammer tells you your scammer doesn't mean you're not a scammer. It's that makes sense. I don't think I don't think Elon.

It's just, he's just, he's just piling on right here. I can tell you someone who's just spent a lot of time and boards talking about the right type of CEO. When people fail to realize is that they're just very few people in the world who can go from A to Z.

There are people who can envision a company and hook up the printer and raise the initial seed capital and get it to letter C and D. There's some really talented people who can take it to institutional rounds and get it to letter H and get it to scale.

And then there's like a few dozen people in the world who were able to then do that and then run a public company. It's just you're asking someone to be a to Catholic. In the way I would describe Sam Alman, if I were on that board, I would be saying, this guy's a visionary.

I don't think he's an operator. I don't think he's assessing the financials, the capital commitments, the risks. Relationships with people. There's a lot of people.

The ability to retain talented people in some. He, quite frankly, looks like the guy's clearly a visionary. The question is, is he an operator? Steve Jobs was a visionary and a marketer, Tim Cook was the operator

in the supply chain to go from 300 billion to three trillion.

“In my view, it's, I think Sam Alman's to be kicked up to chairman”

and they should bring in an operator that understands how to run this types of complex organizations. I think that's exactly what's going to be any name you can think of. I wanted to ask you. He's got a lot of burn bridges.

I'll tell you that. They need to do their piling up. You know what the example is? I could pause that to keep interrupt to you. It was, it's going from Travis Calenak to Dara Costa Shahi.

They need a Dara Costa Shahi. Who is Dara Costa Shahi? They really do. Because then they could clean it up and, you know, because Sam has got a lot of people who don't like him.

And by the way, Travis is a, Travis is a genius and an innovator. And just wasn't the right guy for the company at the time. And he's also a terrible person. Who do you think? I'd have to think really hard.

There's, there are several. There are other things you've got to keep it exciting because you're new to your competition as Dara Dario, right? Who seems to have some skills more skills than Sam does. I'm moving it forward, right?

So you have, that's who your competition is. But you right, Dara is Dara. That kind of a Dara like personality is like that. And there's not many. I suppose Brett Taylor maybe.

I don't know. That's an interesting one. That's a great one, actually. Yeah. I'd have to really think.

I'd have to really think. There are several. There are several. You know, had she been had she lived. Susan Wajiski would have been on the list for that.

I can't think of a whole lot of people though. I just can't. I mean, they're going to have to do something. But there is this board strong enough to do it. That's the thing.

Or they're going to stick with Sam. But he's definitely created. You know, in him. By the way, them tweeting back and forth. They look like fucking.

He just walked into Elon's trap because Elon. Everyone thinks Elon's a villain and an asshole. And so Sam by fighting with him is it's a mistake. And I like Tom Boy and I agree with him about the short-term data centers. Most people think it's kind of ridiculous.

But you walk into everyone. It's already built in that Elon's an asshole. And so you just become an asshole at the same time. Anyway, we'll see what happens here. I think you're right.

“I think they're going to have to replace him.”

I do right with you. All right. Let's go on a quick break. We come back. California and 11 other states.

Files suit to block the paramount. Warner Bros. merger. I'll be talking to California Attorney General Rob Bonta all about it. Years ago, Netflix said that it's main competitor wasn't some other streaming service.

It was sleep. And maybe that explains why. All of a sudden Netflix has games. It has tons of reality shows. It has video podcasts.

And maybe going forward, it even has YouTube videos. This week on the Vergecast, we try to figure out what Netflix is going forward. And whether it's still a streaming service we want. Plus, the future of smart glasses,

what's going on with quantum computing? And yes, we have a Trump phone. All that on the Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts. What is happening? What am I seeing?

This is not real. Like what? Is that unexplainable? The show about everything we don't know is coming to Netflix. Come on.

You're not serious, right? It's real. Oh my gosh, I'm freaking out. We'll still be getting into all the huge questions that can take over your life.

“Are there different ways that humans might be dead?”

Do we live inside of an enormous black hole? Why do we cry? What if I eat it?

But now, we're going to be able to show you all sorts of things we never could before.

You really have no choice but to just let your mind go wild.

with new audio episodes still dropping every Monday and Wednesday.

I'm staying up comedian John Marcosaraisy and I'm actor penis model Russell Daniels. The downside is our podcast where we bring on guests to talk about how miserable their lives are. Because let's face it. Things are not getting better. Every episode we talk about what's wrong with our lives, our guest lives, the world.

But in a fun way. Bottom line is you're going to walk away feeling better about your life. We've had so many cool guests Caleb Huron. Busy films. Stavros Halkius.

Lover and Cox. Hassan Piker. Elana Glazer. I promise you're going to have a good time. Now on the Vox Media Podcast Network.

This is the downside. We're back California Attorney General Rob Bonta along with attorneys.

“General, I think that's right from 11 other sites.”

I does then just filed a lawsuit to block paramounts. A hundred and ten.

A billion dollar merger with Warner Brothers discovery.

The suit alleges the merger will help reduce competition creating higher prices. Less content and hurt movie theater. Cable to series is quite a narrow lawsuit. Bonta is fellow AG. They're asking paramount and Warner not to close a deal while the case.

Most through the courts. So what couple things we want to talk about here. It's very narrow from what I understand talking to people. There's a lot of feeling at the paramount. I don't think they thought it was going to be a dozen of these things.

I thought they I think the negotiations didn't go very well between Bonta and Paramount. There was this weird threatening to leave California, which I think is nonsense. So Scott, give me your quick thoughts here. I'm mixed here, Kirk, because I can see why when Republicans in the Trump administration

are happy to weaponize the courts and the legal system to intimidate the press. I kind of applaud AG's in D.A.'s in blue states pushing back and say, "All right, girlfriend, to complete this game." Because quite frankly, I don't think there's a legal basis to claim that it's monopoly power.

“I think on a pure economic competitive level when you're facing YouTube and these different platforms,”

I don't think it's a monopoly. So, but at the same time, what's good for the goose, right? I would just go through market insurance, say, in terms of viewership time. You know, YouTube's a 12% Netflix is a nine. The combined, I just failed to see how this triggers any sort of legal review.

What is the legal justification for blocking this merger? It kind of just comes down to that. It becomes 86% of the market is shared by four companies, only versus six to seven or whatever. It creates, you know, this is the idea that it creates a smaller group of buyers, a smaller group of distributors, and that's essentially it.

And then theater owners will have to raise the prices. A lot of actors are kind of upset. I think he has to do this. I think you're right. They have to show a little teeth here and some level even if they.

The argument on the ground and I believe this, I believe that tens of thousands of creative jobs are going to go away. I think there's going to be a scream, let up by the creative community, that they don't even know what happened to them.

“If this merger goes through, because I think the only way to justify 112 billion dollar acquisition price is to find,”

quote, unquote, efficiencies through AI. And they're going to move harder at this than anyone, despite their commitment to produce more movies or what have you.

The problem is, is that the argument that there's too much concentration is like,

well, folks, we're trying to compete with the people you say are too powerful. Yeah. And that if you don't let us merge, all you're doing is strengthening numbers one, two, and three. Right. Yeah.

I think that's what I see. I just got to note from someone at Paramount. It said, it's a silly and laughable market definition. That's what that's their answer, I guess. I don't think I think this gets swatted away, but at the same time,

if you, there's such a huge ticking fee of like a half a billion dollars a month, if this thing continues to go on. Yeah. We're starting September 30th that they have leverage. They may be able to extract something.

Yeah, especially if one, if Britain also does it, it'll definitely slow them down. I think it's going to close. I just, I'm not sure what, you know, we'll see where it goes. But they definitely have, they've dirtyed up Paramount quite a bit with actors talent. And I think the general public, and I don't think the CBS stuff is helped.

I think it's a minor part of it, but it's gotten an outsized attention. And I think they really, I think they may, and having the dinner with Trump thing

I've told them this.

“But we'll see, which is the where it goes.”

And we'll see what Bonta says.

I'll also note, I extended an offer for an interview with Paramount's Council. Okay, Scott, now, get out of here. I'm going to talk to California AG Rob Bonta. California Attorney General Rob Bonta is with me now. He's in the middle of quite a busy day, Rob.

Oh, that's a go. Good busy day. It's going well. We filed our lawsuit today, and we're excited. Yeah, so nice back for up.

He did it in front of the Hollywood sign. Can you, I don't know how you thought it would be. It's very well coordinated online. You've got a lot of all the other AGs.

You've got a number of senators, etc.

Sort of talking and talk a little bit about why, why you're positioning it. Yeah, I mean, we have lined up and synchronized the different attorneys general that talk about the lawsuit that we're collectively bringing. There's there's 12 of us in California plus 11 others. Some of the other statements that you're seeing from, you know, Senator Murphy, Senator Warren.

That's just organic. We haven't spoken to them. They're watching this issue, and they have a viewpoint, and they're expressing it. And we appreciate the support that they're showing. We're focused on the law on the facts here, and this proposed merger between Paramount

Warner Brothers violates a section seven of the Clayton Act. And we think that the market concentration and the free markets that we've named. If there it's, because I'm delete it on lawful and yeah, right. Yeah, distribution of wide release films and also blockbusters and then licensing of cable channels. So we think we got three clear markets where they violate the law.

So let's talk about the goals here, because it's much narrower. You could have gone a lot of different directions here in this lawsuit.

“And it's, it's quite narrow, actually, but what do you hope to get out of this lawsuit?”

And how did it come to this? What's the goal? The goal based on the lawsuit is to block the merger. If there is some sort of discussion that that happens, and you know, or we're not inviting it or shutting the door on it, it's up to Paramount or Warner Brothers, whether they want it.

We will always engage in good faith. We will listen.

But we've expressed our concerns. Very clearly, chapter and verse in, you know, nearly 40 page complaint, which talks about the markets and talks about the impacts of the market concentration. And how audiences will be harmed and workers will be harmed, and quality will erode and output will decline.

And we think we said it for us. And if they have something that they want to recommend or suggest to address our concerns, we will listen. But right now, we're asking to block the merger. We're asking them to agree to not close the merger, while we're in litigation, if they don't agree, we're going to file a temporary training order.

And we think we'll get it. You haven't done that yet for people to understand. If they don't agree to slow it down, correct? Correct. But we need an answer from them today, and if they don't agree today,

we're filing later today. It doesn't sound like they're going to agree today. That's my impression. They've released a statement. They're also talking to people. They've said, let me say what they said on the record.

Paramount fired back saying the statement, the practical effect of this lawsuit is to shield those dominant streaming platforms like Netflix and technology companies from much-needed competition. Obviously, Netflix, you were noting Disney and here in Sony and Universal, Netflix and others are not in this. There's no mention of them.

Explain why answer what he's saying right here. He's talking about something that's not part of the lawsuit. He's talking about the streaming markets. We haven't brought a lawsuit based on the streaming markets. I know that's where they think they can win the PR battle,

but that has nothing to do with the lawsuit and the legal case that we've brought. We can utilize, you mentioned, these are highly diversified companies. We considered multiple markets before deciding on the three that we've challenged. And he is trying to rebut something we're not even saying.

“We haven't challenged the streaming markets, but I think they like that.”

The worst smaller than Netflix, Netflix is the bad guy here. Don't look at us. I think they like the deflection in that and I understand that from a PR perspective, but they are completely missing the mark from a legal perspective. And a factual perspective.

Should you have included Netflix and here, let's just address it. Because one of the reactions I got was it's a silly and laughable market definition. Why aren't they included? Because when we looked at this, we looked at streaming and we looked at the impacts. And we thought we had a better case with the three markets that we chose.

And so, you know, when we bring a case, we sort of try to envision all the aspects of it. Going to court with an expert, the likely defenses and rebuttals from the defendants. You know, what the HHI, the index on market concentration shows how it measures up under US versus Philadelphia. And the market share. That's an appropriate way to look at it.

Even if you can imagine that all these markets are numbered with each other. I think that's what they're doing. It's all the same thing essentially. And you were saying it is not all the same thing in other words. I think even Hollywood and the entertainment industry don't think they're all the same thing.

I think they treat blockbusters differently than wide release films. You know, wide release films are different than, you know, select release or different than streaming. They're different. You know, I think some people, maybe some people see overlap, maybe some people see some similarities. But the market definition, as you know, is very important in these cases.

We think we think we think we've landed on three very clear markets where anti trust laws been violated. And we think the whole of the scrutiny.

“So what you have to do is you have to improve the likelihood to succeed in its merits to get an injunction,”

a temporary restraining order, essentially. Right. How where it goes to the California court. You feel you you have the likelihood to see it in merits with this more narrow group of issues you're bringing up. Yeah, you know, we think this case is very strong.

We think that just like next our techno, you know, we went in, we saw it and secure it and received a preliminary injunction.

Basically based on the market concentration, the percentage.

Right. You can either get a preliminary injunction or a TRO correct. Right. Right. And we, I think we'll probably file them both at the same time.

But we want to immediately release immediate blockage of the merger. And we think that with these three markets as defined. We think they're appropriate markets to define as we define them. And we think, you know, the based on the index that that courts rely on for market concentration. They are already.

Presumptively illegal. So we think we have a very good chance of securing. And in some lawyers, there's some reporting and lawyers that justice department felt that to correct on some of this stuff. Yes. But there are other jurisdictions that aren't that much as much under the sway of this particular company.

“Um, how do you look at theirs sort of passing like a lot of these countries that pass on and not Britain, but others have others across the world have?”

I think it's appropriate for each regulator within their jurisdiction. And, you know, their geographic market to consider the impacts. And their geographic market is different than ours. Maybe the product market is similar, but ours is different. So that this suggestion, I think that Paramount Warner Brothers and they try to advance this in their statement today is that, hey, all these other regulators approved us.

What gives here? Well, it's a different market, but different impacts to different analysis. So what the fuck, what the fuck, Rob? So when you think about their response, it's wouldn't, it's not what you want, but there was some talk that you wanted Paramount to do with us. Sanan, that you said that and then you'd bless the deal. You've denied these reports.

But what do you think of the idea? I never said that.

Speaking for a friend, speaking for a friend. Yeah, I'm teasing. Yeah, I never said that. And it was interesting that that was reported, you know, it's come to a place. And this, you know, I guess the tie stakes, there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of, you know, gossip, just straight out lies that are being advanced.

And maybe that's part of a PR campaign. Maybe it's people, you know, just want to be part of something that they don't have inside knowledge on. But, you know, that definitely could be part of an outcome here. I would say, perhaps it could be necessary, but it wouldn't be sufficient. That is what you're talking about theaters, right?

Because theaters is not CNN. Yeah, I mean, it is not CNN at all. And so, you know, when you get into a settlement, discussions should that ever happen. Here, you can be creative. There can be different aspects and components to it. But we're looking right now just at the litigation and the market says we've defined them.

Now, there's, there's also a report, as you know, and I know you addressed it from the Hollywood sign that David Allison is considering moving Paramount's headquarters.

To, and, and the allocating, the company's 30 billion dollars in plan spending.

“But if reallocating, if the lawsuit goes through, personally, I don't believe I think I taking the under on this one.”

But how do you respond to that? Do you believe that could happen or you worried about it? I mean, it, it feels like a potential monopolist trying to bully a state that is doing its job to regulate them. And it feels like a last ditch, you know, desperate effort to try to blackmail California and 11 other states into not enforcing anti-trust law into allowing. An illegal proposed merger to go through. And that's not going to happen. It didn't work. We're not doing that. We filed our complaint in court.

And, you know, I think they're, they're, they're on overdrive on their PR. And what they're trying to suggest and, you know, the statement that you were reading from.

Listen to the workers. What are they saying? They're saying this is terrible for workers.

But, you know, I guess we should listen to David Ellison and Paramount Warner Brothers and believe that it's good for workers in good for competition. They say it's good for all the things it's bad for. It's bad for workers. It's bad for businesses. It's bad for audiences. It's bad for content creators. There's certainly a lot of Hollywood people that are not for this thing. They weren't for the Netflix thing either, but they're even more so I would say. Right.

“But where did you, the workers were the ones you had been hearing from the most who, who would you been hearing from the, the most in that in those groups?”

The distributors, the theaters, the actors, directors, writers. What, is it was a one that had more weight than others? No, but the collective voice was so strong and so unanimous. We talked to writers. We talked to producers. We talked to directors. We talked to actors. We talked to the crew. You know, I at sea, I attended hearings. I, you know, and I honestly, I was inspired by the courage of actors who stood to lose a lot.

And, and people who work in the space who could be punished, blacklisted, who could be prevented from having a job.

And they, they spoke on principle with courage and conviction.

And that meant a lot to me. I, I didn't really hear from anyone who thought the deal was good for the entertainment industry except for David Ellison. And, you know, and Paramount and Warner Brothers, those who are stakeholders who would be affected. To be fair, there are some studio people that are like, look, it's getting hard against the tech people. And more, the bigger stronger series of studios might be better to hold up in the current environment. There are people who do say that.

That has it been a strongly expressed to us, but I, I accept that there's some outside of the Paramount Warner Brothers who support the merger. Two more things. This is 12 states. They're all democratic states. A lot of, some people think it's a long put you're doing here. But at the same time, others say, this is what Scott Gallagher was saying. It's a good that you're pointing this out, that you're bringing it up, that you're punching back in some fashion. Do you think it's, you should you have tried to get more of a Republican or a military GOP lead attorney general.

You don't want to look like a democratic attack necessarily, but it's also a sign of things to come in the upcoming months, if, especially if the Republicans lose the house. The control of the house. The majority are not closed on additional states joining democratic or Republican. And I was grateful that our Ticket Master live nation case was very much bipartisan. Our next our Ticket case is bipartisan.

Now, this one could be, maybe should be.

“I think you have to ask the Republican states, well, why, why they joined Ticket Master live nation or the ones that joined,”

next our Ticket, our feeling they shouldn't join this one. On just law and facts, I don't think there's a principle legal or factual reason not to. So I don't know why they wouldn't, and so maybe they're just waiting. Maybe they don't want to be first through the door, but maybe we'll join later. That happened in next our Ticket, you know, the states that we started with on the filing date. It grew from, from then, and this should be non-partisan bipartisan, whatever you want to call.

This is just making sure that the markets are free and fair and not rigged. And that there's competition. Yeah, maybe Arkansas wants to become Hollywood. I don't know. It's a fashion.

But there are big states, by the way, New York's in there, too.

Yeah, you can, you gotta always take notice of New York in California.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

“I think they didn't think Washington state was going to join.”

That's my impression. But they did, in fact, they did. All right, well, of course, one of the things that raising is you want to be Governor of California. You need to, you need to do this. Would you address that issue?

That you, this is good for Rob Bonta himself to, sort of, punch it, punch it. Not just the elections, but the Trumpet Minutes. You know, it has, they have the links. They've been having a lot of dinner together. Can you address that, please?

Sure. This is good for the law. It's good for the will of law. It's good for competition. It's good for consumers who are screaming that affordability is their biggest challenge.

And they don't want prices to go up at movie theaters or on their cable bills. This is a Brennan butter issue about how our markets are supposed to work. They're supposed to be free fare with competition prices are supposed to stay reasonable. Choice is supposed to stay high in competition high quality high. And so maybe those things are good.

For me personally, maybe they're bad for me personally. But I have no idea. But I'm doing what I think is right. I'm doing a based on principle, based on the law, based on the facts. And I am not running for governor.

And I am running for your elected as California attorney general. I'll be honored if my bosses, voters of California voted for me. But maybe some of them will hate this action. And maybe some will love it. And maybe some will be in between.

I have no idea. But I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do. Not based on any political outcome or consequence from it.

In the next 24 hours, I guess.

All right, thanks, Rob. I pleasure. Thanks, Car. All right, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

[MUSIC] It all started with Colby, maybe.

“Over 10 years ago, we created Switched On Pop to Listen Closer.”

Uncovering the songcraft behind even the glossiest of pop hits. Since then, we've released almost 500 episodes. We've defined the sounds of our modern soundtrack and interviewed hundreds of musicians and music inciters, including the singer of Colby, maybe herself. Carly Ray Jefferson.

I'm musicologist Nate Sloan and I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And on July 14, Switched On Pop is embarking on a new chapter. We're stepping out from behind our microphones and in front of the camera to stream our podcast on Netflix. Now, you'll still be able to listen to the show anywhere you get podcasts.

But now, you'll be able to watch us each week. Breaking down the sounds of the moment, digging into musical menu show with your favorite artist

and offering questionable dad jokes as always.

We're kicking off our Netflix debut with the four part series on the art of the song with help from artists, producers, and songwriters like Aaron Desner, Audrey Hobbert, Trevor Horn, Cypress Hill, and Taylor Parks. Streams switched on pop on Netflix and anywhere you get podcasts every Tuesday, starting on July 14th.

Is Kamala Harris running for President again? Listen, I'm Mike. I'm Mike. I'm thinking about him. But does anybody want that?

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know. Well, I don't see why not. Absolutely.

“I think Kamala Harris, you're wrong for President again.”

I don't think there'll never be a woman president in the United States. Now, while on the way, you can't just walk away on that. Tell us why.

I know it's still early to talk about 2020/8.

But as we build to our post-Trump future, it seems to be a big question about the Democratic Party. Kamala Harris leads all of the presidential polling. So does this mean that the person who led to take it in 2024 is going to lead the party again in 2028?

The campaign needs to be called "Bah-Bah-Bah-Bah." But it's just a tainted brand. Do you think from a donor community large lead if there's any appetite for a Harris return? I don't.

I'm a steadhurnton. And this is America, actually. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast. The New York Times is a newspaper,

which makes articles that you can read. But the Times is also trying, again, to become a video company. Why? Here's Joe Con, the Times Top Editor.

I think we were in a race against time to make sure that good quality journalism competes with AI generated slop and influencer non-original journalism out there on the internet.

I'm Peter Kafka, the host of channels. The show about what happens when media and technology collide. You can hear my conversation with Times Executive Editor, Joe Con, right now. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Okay, Scott, welcome back. Let's hear some wins and fails. You go first. When I was in Miami and at the Hard Rock Stadium watching teaming on play, Norway.

And Norwegian fans started singing with English fans. We Carolina and then English fans started doing that rowing motion. It just gave me so much hope. I was so desperate for it. When you hear 70,000 people who come together

like kids who love each other but their parents have been arguing, it's just that collective humanity and the athleticism. I really do believe that the world cup is tapped into this need to remind each other that we have more that we share than differences.

I just, that was such a, you know, I've been to, I don't care about sports and then every four years I get really into it because my kids are into it. I took my son to Moscow and St. Petersburg eight years ago.

We went to Qatar four years ago. This is by far the best because this is, this is the encapsulation of something wonderful and that wonderful thing is that people around the world feel, especially in the West and in democracies, feel a sense of camaraderie and comedy of man.

And our leaders in the getting in the way of that and they've been dividing us and we're actually not that divided. We're being divided. And that game just reminded me of it. And it is a contrast to the political stuff

because the minute Lindsey Graham died, Trump was like taking advantage of it. Like, so gross. But you know what I mean? Like, it's a, it's a, it's a such a contrast.

“Well, you know what's made this woke up great quite frankly?”

It's none of these leaders are anywhere fucking nearer. That's right. Thank you for staying out of it. Yeah. Thank you for staying out of it.

Just don't, don't poison it. And in the moment that Trump did enter it, it kind of fucked everything up for the American team and my opinion.

Anyway, that's my one. My fail is a little bit.

“I thought a lot about this, and I really want to get your viewpoint,”

including if it's pushed back. When I was a UCLA, I didn't think I knew a gay person. Yeah. And when I found out, I was a UCLA at a pivotal time for gay rights, or at society as it relates to how it feels about the gay community.

And that is within two years of graduating. I found out not only did I know gay people, but my roommates, my best friend, and several of my fraternity brothers were gay. And the reality was from 1982 to 1987 at UCLA,

in America, you were not allowed to be gay. You were not.

You just, and those of us who are heterosexual never really

and still don't understand the shame that America was putting on gay people. And I know you felt that. And I definitely didn't. And you can relate to this.

And then the way we treated people who got this plague, the shameful way that we treated this community, when they were at their, you know, these young men, mostly young men who were at their most vulnerable. And so I empathize with men,

and I haven't walked in those shoes that were closeted. But the reality is I think Senator Graham deserves to be lauded for his service. His ability to get deals done. He was well-liked.

But I don't think his legacy is going to be kind. Yeah, I agree. And this is where I go with this. And I'm really like reticent to talk about this way

“because I do believe you need to err on the side of”

positive and grace when someone passes.

But my belief is that Senator Graham's hypocrisy will be his legacy. And as hypocrisy isn't about being gay, it's quietly benefiting from the courage of people in the past everything to secure equal rights.

And then turning around and arguing those rights should be denied to others, which he consistently did. And then affiliating with people who are pulling it, nucleating with people who are pulling us.

And you can relate to this because you are one of the people here. Every freedom, the LGBTQ community enjoys today and that Senator Graham enjoyed was because someone else paid the price. I would agree.

People lost jobs, were rejected by their families. You were turned away by our security apparatus. They were arrested. They were beaten. They were ostracized.

And in some cases, people were killed

for the simple act of living honestly. And they accepted those risks. Such that the next generation wouldn't have to endure that bullshit. And to enjoy the protection, their courage created.

Well, publicly undermining it. Yeah. Is it just inconsistent? I agree. It's a profound failure of gratitude

and integrity. What it says is at the end of the day. It says, I deserve these freedoms, but people like me don't. Right.

Let me tell you, back in those days, it was called, the very much, I saw Graham at gay bars. I did when I was young. He was with another congressman. Very frequently.

And nobody said anything at the time. Like everyone knew who he was. There were a lot of people like that. It wasn't just ham. Especially in the Reagan administration.

There were a bunch of gays who were doing anti-gay things. I was on the fence about outing people back then, back back in the day. And some, the only time I would say, when they were doing things that were specifically anti-gay, that was okay.

Otherwise, kind of a live and not live kind of person. That said, by this year, 20 in the year of our Lord, 2026, it was fucking ridiculous. And he was, he was affiliating with people who were hurting gay people. And I would agree with you.

He could have been a hero. He could have been a hero. And he just was, he was shamed of himself from what I can see. And I, and heard about it, of course, as most gay people sort of, there's sort of a whisper kind of thing that happens with gay people.

But it was, it was enough. It was absolutely fucking enough the way he was made.

“I think more to the point was sort of this,”

were more a fish personality he had. And people, you know, they was close to John McCain. And then he turned and very kind. Very close to Biden's. And then completely turned on him just to attach himself to a strong

or man, which in this case was Trump. And that made a better real conversion by him. But he was constantly pretzeling himself in really uncomfortable. And I hate to say that unnatural acts all the time. And I thought it was pretty gross.

I think it was, and I think he could have been a great one. Especially the stuff he said about Trump initially was just like JD bands was absolutely accurate. But he decided power was more important than principles. There's a lot of people having acquitted themselves well in order to be close to the flame of power. Yeah, I get it.

What I think this goes deeper and that is I think a person's character should be measured by the willingness to bear the cost of their convictions. Otherwise they're just opinions. And when you ask a Senator Graham did,

You've outsourced courage and privatized the benefits. And history even remembers the people who stood up when it was dangerous. Not those who waited until it was safe and then tried to pull up the ladder behind them.

Including stray people who went out and like I'll never, I'll never have a news because of what he did around marriage.

I'm sorry. He took a, he took a stand that was hurtful that hurt him badly at that time. And so yes, things cost things and he did not pay any prices and he was constantly angling for power. And the reason he was closeted is so he could be more powerful. Right? So it all had to do with his desperate need for power.

“And it is a bad legacy for someone who you had a sense could have been greater, right?”

Anyway, you're right. I think there's nothing controversial about your saying. Look, I think it's legacy is the following. The, the cruelest, the cruelest part about this is not just betraying yourself. You're betraying the people absorbed the blows.

So you could live a safer life which he did and then paid the price. He collected the dividend and then voted to cut, cut off, cut it off for the next generation. And so he was cashing checks that other people wrote. And I think that's his legacy and it's a terrible thing to say after he has been deceased. But I know so many people, including yourself who paid a real cost.

So it, so that's a younger people could enjoy the rights. They, they, so, so, so much enjoy. And not only that, the Republican parties come a long way on that. Yes, I agree. And he, he was not only not an ally.

He picked up the gun and fired it, you know, at his own troops. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. And enjoyed the, you know, the closet and the sofa, it was gross. I agree with you.

That's a very good one. I am going to do a win, which is, you know, you're talking about going to the, to the game. I was joking and I want to go to the game because I was actually with my son Louie. And we psyched all around San Francisco.

“And I have to tell you, I think it's, we, we liked on this beautiful sutra open reserve.”

And just had the one most wonderful long hike all day long. Is this idea of people and you're seeing it more and more getting out of the whole noise. Our own thing. Our own thing. IRL.

And it's not like, we talked about politics. We talked, we didn't like, I don't want to talk about politics. It was, we talked about everything. And it was such a delight. I have to say, I kept saying to myself, I have to stop like being eternally online in a physical way.

And I don't mean, because we talked about lots of issues. So I just feel like IRL is the next is really a trend.

I thought first it was like a fake trend, but it really isn't.

It's really something I think people are very much longing for in a way that's really quite, I think it's really significant going forward. Including going to the movie theater. I've had some really great times recently going to the movie theater. I went to see, by the way, I went to see the Milan Alive, which didn't, you know, didn't do well,

but I got to tell you it was charming and totally enjoyable to go to that. I've gone to so many movies lately and so all my kids, which is really interesting. And I really encourage that. This IRL stuff in whatever form it takes. I think fail is the failure of what you were talking about is the fact that people look at that picture of Mitch McConnell and think this is fake.

That that's where we are every nobody's telling the truth. They're creating when they could fix it very easily act with ethics and honor. It goes to what you were saying about Lindsey Graham and everything else is that like, we are now convinced they're lying as the beginning, not at the end. And that's, it was troubling.

And everyone was like, oh, those, those memes were so mean. I was like, oh come on, like come on, that's the world now. And I don't mind those as much as the fact that nobody really good people don't believe things now, right?

There's always a group of people that are going to be conspiracy theorists and kind of nutty,

but really normal people are like, is this real? Why can't they just do the right thing and like show up in a video? Like show up, like come out physically, like speaking of IRL, just wheel the old man out and look at him. He shouldn't be in office, but why not do that? And all this, this fakeery is such like, or pretending that Trump's not sleeping.

“He's sleeping everybody, that's what he's doing.”

Like, I just, it creates this sort of disbelief in our system. And that it's really starting to get really irritating on many levels. Anyway, that's my, and I think that picture is us. Sorry, I agree with you, Scott. It's very sus, it's a sus picture, even if it's partially real.

We want to hear from you, send us your questions about business check or whatever's on your mind. Go to nmymag.com/pivotism@question for the show or call 85551pivot. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott, you talked a few weeks about how much you admire Bill Mar. Did you know you got a shout out on his club random podcast? You came up while he was interviewing actress Bo Derrick of all things.

Who was it? It was on your show, I think. Galaway. Yes, got Galaway.

“I think he was talking about the bullshit of course.”

Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life.

No, do what you're good at. And then you'll make a good living and you can do what you want. I did not know that, seriously. I didn't know that she, can we just pause that Bo Derrick is thinking about me? Yeah, she is.

But she saw Emily Radikowski got a big book deal. I saw that.

“And by the way, I heard an excerpt from her book on the New York Magazine website.”

And it's, it's well written. She's beautiful.

They're first book was right. I interviewed her because the book was well written.

Yeah, I was really, I was like, she, this, this woman knows how to write. Yeah, I know. There it is. Yeah. Anyway, Bo Derrick, good to know.

“All right, that's all I have for you Scott.”

Thank you for that. That's the show.

Thanks for listening to pivot.

Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show was released by Lauren Amin, soy, Marcus Taylor Griffin and Todd Wiseman. We're an inner child engineer. The episode, thanks also to DuBros, Mr. Verde,

D'Angelo, and Kate Gallagher. In the shark crew, it's box media is executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast by platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot and box media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Cara, it is coming home. Jude Bellingham. Harry Kane. This is, this is, this is our tournament, Cara. Go England.

(upbeat music)