Bonus: Abdul El-Sayed Wins in Michigan feat. Bernie Sanders

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I'm Dan Fifre. So we were going to record a reaction to Tuesday's election results. Last night, but the Michigan Senate race was much closer than all the polling suggested. So here we are today. Bring you a bonus pod.

Complete with an interview with Bernie Sanders, which you'll hear in a bit. But first, the headline. Abdul-El-Sayed is now the Democratic nominee for the U.S. Senate race in Michigan. With more than 95% of the vote in, he defeated Haley Stevens by 1.48.5% to 47.5%. And we'll face former Republican Congressman current Florida homeowner, Mike Rogers.

On one hand, polls had to Abdul ahead of Haley by anywhere between 10 to 19 points. And his team's confidence heading into Tuesday certainly matched that margin. On the other, we have a very progressive Muslim candidate who took on the entire Democratic establishment in D.C. and Michigan was outspent 11 to 1 by $60 million in outside spending, including a $32 million APAC spend that's more than any group has spent in any democratic

primary this cycle and Abdul still won. Haley Stevens very graciously conceded and Mallory MacMoro, who had also been in the race, actually introduced Abdul at his victory event Wednesday morning, where he previewed his argument against Mike Rogers. Mike Rogers is a guy who will do anything blue cross blue shield wants him to do,

including raise your rates. Mike Rogers is a guy who introduced legislation to increase the flow of opioids. He did that while I was in high school. Mike Rogers is a guy who's politics and vision and perspective are old.

Mike Rogers is a guy who has never shot away from a corporation he could do a favor for.

Mike Rogers is a guy who, believe it or not, went back to Florida. So he can lift every single boot Donald Trump owns to beg for his endorsement.

“I'm so sorry if you want to send it, it was going to lick some boots.”

Fine, go go for Mike Rogers, but if you want a senator who's going to stand up to Donald Trump, then you've got your option right here. Michiganers are sick and tired of BS politics coming in to divide us when there's so much more we can unite to actually guarantee if we're willing to come together around it. So if all Mike Rogers got is that his name is Abdul and my name is Mike.

You're going to be surprised how many people are like, yeah, but that's the Abdul who wants to bring down the price of my groceries and gas and stop us sending money abroad and make sure that I got healthcare. So yeah, I like that. I'll do it over your Mike from Florida.

All right, we'll get to that message in a bit. But let's start with the closer than expected results. What do you make of that and what happened with the polling? What happened with the polling? That's a great question.

And a very hard one to answer because we don't have exit polls in this race. So it's hard to measure what the pollsters expected in terms of primary composition to what

But I will say that Michigan is a very hard state to poll and always has been.

It doesn't have a in-state pollster that is incredibly well regarded and it doesn't. And in the most well regarded one, the epic poll, which came out a few weeks ago that had, he was even up 10. So no one seems to know what no one really knew what this lecture was going to look like. Best guess is it.

People over sampled, highly engaged college educated voters who overwhelmingly voters for Abdul, hence the margin under sampled. It was over time. Well, yeah, until we've seen it happen nationally. We're now having it happening in Democratic politics.

And I was talking about this on Polarcoaster.

“That's what's just coming out on Thursday.”

We're going to check out. But it's actually the opposite polling error that happened in the. Twenty twenty five group of tourists. Are they under sampled? Highly kids.

Well, I mean, it's, they were. Yeah, that's right. So it's, it's all very confusing. Let's put all the points of a site because the polling stuff only really matters here. In one regard, which is it has everyone in mess with everyone's expectations.

If the polls have been tied, or it's shown Haley Stevens up a few points going into Election Day and Abdul won by one, this would be the shot heard around the world. It would be, as you point out, this incredible victory of a Muslim man named Abdul El Saiyid. Beating the entire Democratic machine, beating a pack, beating Chuck Schumer, beating Christian Whitmer, and winning.

And it would be this incredible victory. But because our expectation was he was going by a lot. And that expectation was magnified by the fact that the first counties that came in showed him dramatically outperforming what people expect his margins to be. The expectations got messed up.

And so the reason this race probably ended up playing out the way it was always going to play out.

What ended up happening here is that Abdul had the typical coalition of a very progressive candidate in Michigan and nationally, which is a lot of young voters and a lot of college educated voters and struggled with the rest of the coalition. And Haley Stevens maximize the rest of it and you end up with a very, very close race. Yeah, someone pointed out that Hillary Schulten, who's representative Western Michigan district,

was a big Haley Stevens supporter at dual one, her district. But Haley Stevens won Rashida Thalib's district. Yep. And they're like, what's going on there? It's like, well, Hillary Schulten's district is a suburban district heavily white,

college educated and lefty progressive candidates do well with those voters. And Rashida Thalib's district is much more diverse black voters, especially.

“And that's how, you know, more moderate Democratic candidates tend to do well in those places.”

I think in a place like Michigan, yeah, if you have combining college educated white voters, Arab American voters, Muslim voters, which there's obviously a bigger portion in Michigan than any other state. And younger voters and all the colleges are on Michigan, that's probably that's the, I would guess that's the coalition that Abdul assembled to get them over the top. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. And you can't understand the importance of the Muslim population, particularly in Dearborn, which Abdul won essentially 80.

Yeah. Yeah. And that makes you sure. And just to your point on college educated voters voting for Abdul is that Haley Stevens only won her own district by four points. Yeah.

Yeah. I love for someone to do some analysis of because there's no, like you said, there's no examples, just some like county by county analysis, because Haley Stevens did really well in a lot of rural counties, smaller towns, medium sized towns, which is not unexpected. But then like Abdul did well in some northern rural counties in other places. So, you know, we were sort of over generalizing just based on certain counties here and there, but I'd love to see more detailed analysis.

Let's just talk about A-pack for a second.

“Do you think in the end, A-pack spending was a net positive or negative for Haley Stevens?”

Because like I went into the race when, you know, the expectations were that Abdul went by a lot saying that it is clearly a negative, because not only did they not help her win the race, but also they provided maybe the most effective argument for her opponent. Now, you could, you could argue with the other way now that it was only a one point race, but I don't know what you think. Yeah. It's somewhat complicated argument because being associated with A-pack, being the A-pack candidate was bad for Haley Stevens.

A-pack has a negative 37% favorability rating among Democrats in Michigan.

It also made her the candidate of big money in politics because the A-pack ads were so ubiquitous A-pack spent north of 30 million dollars in this race.

However, Haley Stevens was not a great fundraiser.

You know, according to A-pack data of the $60 million that was spent on her behalf, 97% of the ads were paid for by someone other than the Haley Stevens campaign.

So, absent that financial support, it's hard to see how she is this competitive.

“Conversely, a candidate who did not have that, I think, net-negative and promoter of being the A-pack establishment candidate might have faired better than Stevens did in a one-on-one race with Abdul.”

Yeah, I was starting, like, doing a thought experiment because I think other Democrats who were more pro Israel have to contend with this at some point. Which is what if Hayes Stevens had said, no, I don't want, I don't want A-pack endorsement, I don't want the outside spending. My views on Israel are what they are. I'm not going to change those views. But I just don't think this outside money is worth it. We shouldn't have outside money in politics and I don't want A-pack endorsement because I disagree with, you know, the net-negative regime, whatever it may be.

Whatever she could say without completely flip-locking, which is, you know.

Well, I think she could have, I mean, her best move would have been a completely flip-flop, or at least have a more nuanced position to put her on Israel with conditions perhaps that put her more in the mainstream of the current Democratic Party. But the cost of that would be $30 million of A-pack money, but she also got north of $10 million in spending by another super-pack that was essentially, I think, a vessel for DSC donors and people and the establishment, and the Schumer World, who wanted Haley Stevens, similar to the spending that happened on Josh Church's behalf in Iowa.

Yeah, I was thinking about that because I listened to Sarah Longwell's focus group podcast with Jonathan Cohn knows Michigan really well and they talk to Michigan Democrats and I was surprised by, I mean, first of all, you know, it's always good to listen to voters because the way they viewed this primary was so different than the national discourse and what you see online. A lot of those Democrats like they liked both Stevens and Abdul, and to the extent that there were negative things that about Hayley Stevens, so many of these voters brought up A-pack and outside spending and money in politics and it's just, you know, it really broke through not only her ads that, you know, A-pack ran on her behalf, but the idea that she was a candidate that was taking all this outside money.

And one of the polls that came out from, I can't remember which one it was that was not the Emerson poll, but one of the polls in the final stretch did a word cloud.

Now this is that obviously overly poor Abdul polls, so take the, with a great of salt, many runs of salt, but they did a word cloud of things associated with Hayley Stevens and A-pack as like giant in the middle of that and money and like money, I think it's the other very big word in that word cloud. So it definitely impacted her candidates. It's just, it's very, it's just very hard to say how she could she have raised the money absent. All this or from A-pack enough to compete with Abdul, who's an excellent grassroots fundraiser, could she have was there a way in which Schumer at all could have funneled more money to her through a non-A-pack vehicle.

Open question, but I think you generally, I cannot see based on these results, a 20, 28 candidate. Accepted soliciting, accepting, or courting, A-pack to either endorse them or run ads on their behalf. And if you are a more pro is real candidate in 20, 28 on the scale, you're like, on whatever the scale is for 20, 28 candidates.

“In A-pack starts running, you're united to democracy, project, whatever it's called or one of their shadow pack starts going to be asked, you have to go like, do you hold a press conference in front of A-pack demanding and they take it down?”

That's sort of what it'll hurt you. Yeah. Okay. That was my thought too, but wanting to see what you thought. Positive America is brought to you by article article makes it effortless to build a home that lasts without the boutique markup. They're curated collections of mid-century coastal and scandy furniture are designed to mix and match perfectly. So you can create a cohesive designer look that will stand the test of time. We got a bunch of great article stuff at this office. It looks good. It was, it all showed up really fast. It was more affordable. We got some really comfy couches and chairs and desk and just like a ton of great stuff that all work together.

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“I think if I was going to try to persuade people that he was going to”

He's going to extreme. He's so extreme that he would raise senior taxes. You would say he wants to spend. He wants to spend all his plans. He wants to spend this amount of money.

He needs this much taxes. He loves government controlled health. Like if he's going to be a socialist who's going to raise your taxes, you got to make a left on that, which I'm sure that will be coming. And then they'll, of course, have another track that is the scary Muslim extremists.

I guess the way I think about this ad is it is a preview of And a signal to donors of what the larger argument will be. This will all over the course of the campaign. Manifested self insomads are only about. Hassan Piker and things he has said in the past.

Darkening his skin using his full name. And there will be ads about affordability. My argument would just be, is those things are more connected. Then I think a lot of Democrats naturally assume we are a. Are ad making is very siloed.

And there is an economic argument. And there's a radical argument.

“And I think in voters minds, you are softening the ground.”

For the economic argument by showing someone to be extreme. And they can't hit who is viewed as more as less extreme. Tens to win elections in these last few elections. And in Donald Trump being seen as less extreme than Kamala Harris was a. Real warning sign that he was going to win that race.

Well, so then let's talk about. Uh, I've delivered versus Mike Rogers because I do not think. Personally he's going to be able to make voters believe that Mike Rogers is extreme. But it sounded like from his opening message there. And what he's been saying about Mike Rogers that he is going to try to convince.

He is going to try to convince voters that it's not about who's the more extreme candidate. But who's fighting for you and who's corrupt. And that he's going to make Mike Rogers the more corrupt candidate. Yes, I think his argument there too was also his let's just unload the full clip and see what sticks. Because there is a.

There's a combination of he's corrupt. There's a combination of he's pro data center. There's a combination that he is. Pro corporation then there is he is a bootlicker for Trump. I think all of those individually are.

“Good arguments and I think that they can go.”

Together. Yeah. We can discuss the. Whether that's the whether he's doing that the right way or not. But you know, I think like this is a state that.

Is a 50 50 state in 2024. It's a plus six and a half to eight. Point democratic state this time around depending on exactly how the the generic ballot looks. And Donald Trump's rule rating is under 40 and some polls in Michigan. So it's like sometimes we overcomplicate the bucket simple around here.

A vote for Mike Rogers and vote for Donald Trump and Donald Trump to control the Senate. You know, is the and.

Be underneath that is a vote for higher costs for you a vote for more powerful corporations.

Vote for tax cuts for billionaires all of that is part of it. But that I don't think convincing people that Mike Rogers himself is corrupt is going to be the argument. This is necessarily going to play. I think this is what he's contending with and this is a Mike Roger specific problem. Is Mike Rogers has been representing Michigan for a long time or has been in Michigan politics for long time.

I think that a lot of voters to the extent that they know who Mike Rogers is. Probably remember him as a more moderate. Yeah, Republican for sure. Who might who there's plenty of clips of him speaking out against Donald Trump. And I think a dual has to make people realize before he just says that Mike Rogers is going to be a vote for Donald Trump that Mike Rogers has changed.

Nationalized the race, make it about the Senate, make it about control the Senate.

Yeah, I agree with that to an extent. Except when you have candidates like the Susan Collins like Mike Rogers, who the voters in that state know and think of as more moderate and more willing to buck Trump. Then your typical Republican. And I think in those instances, you've got to do some work on their character to like persuade people that something has changed about them. They who either like they've been there too long. They've become corrupt. They're only care about themselves and their money. They're now willing to do whatever Trump says just so they can keep their jobs and keep their money and all that kind of shit like you still have to have Trump be part of it.

“But you have to do some work on the person's character.”

This Mike Rogers thing is interesting because I have as I have been arguing for a long time that this is a very hard race because Mike Rogers is not a maga buff in the eyes of the voters right. A maga buffoon like a doctor or a social walker or some of these other the candidates the Democrats benefit from in 2022. There's also no evidence that he is Susan Collins. He underperformed Trump in 2022. That's all right. He underperformed Trump in 2024.

And I think that is just he did not, if he were a candidate who was seen as more, I think let me put this way. We all know the people in Mike Rogers district know Mike Rogers. He was there for a very far 18 years I think.

We know Mike Rogers because we watched CNN in the 2010s and he was always on and he was a very prominent

Trump skeptical voice in the 2016 world. I don't know. It's unclear to me how many Michigan voters know that. You absolutely have to do work on this character for sure to make to make people understand why the attacks work. But Susan Collins is a very unique proposition in a way in which Mike Rogers is more like running. Is it near a Republican?

I guess also it's tying Mike Rogers to Donald Trump in the same story which is that we were to talk about Donald Trump right now. We'd say you know in a second term he's stuck in out to lunch corrupt only cares about himself. It's a smashing grab. He's made everything more expensive while he got rich. And you know they in the primary the Michigan Democratic Party has a website like price hike Mike.com And they have some great Mike Rogers quotes in there. He talks about coffee prices.

He goes oh my gosh coffee went up you know horror like being sarcastic and on tariffs. He said well the shoe's going to pinch every once in a while. On gas he said we're going to be fine. We got plenty of oil on a $50 annual physical. He said that's probably okay right. And then he said anyone voters who blame Trump for high prices are nuts.

“Like those are the kind of I think those are the kind of quotes that both link what you're talking about.”

Like he's just like Trump but also the guy's way out of touch and he like moved to Florida has no idea what people in Michigan don't throw away. Yeah I agree. Ponte America is brought to you by AG1 summer means enjoying yourself and taking it easy. Maybe some of your wellness goals took a back seat in the process but that's okay. If you're getting back on track make AG1 the non negotiable part of your routine.

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You might as well wake up ready for them. So. Anything else that a bull needs to think about ahead of the general. So much. I think it's important.

I know you read a message box on this though.

I did 17 hundred words on no sleep.

Oh, look. Adoles win is incredibly impressive when you put in the context that everything he was up against. But it is when you look at the coalition that he won with. It is a coalition that does not vote great for the general election. He over perform with youth.

He over perform with college educated voters. He underperformed in rural areas. He underperformed in most rural areas on all of them, but he underperformed with working class voters and he. Really got us clocked clean with black voters. And the electorate. You can survive in a primary like that because in Michigan because.

It's almost 50 50 college educated non college educated voters in a typical primary like we don't have a lot of data on it. But I went back and looked at the 20 20 primary between Biden and Bernie because they had examples from that. And it was 53 non college 47 college educated in that primary. And probably in a midterm it's closer to 50 50 or or a majority college educated in a general election. If you look at 20 24 example data.

It's more than 60% non college educated.

“It is significantly older the number percentage of voters over 65 I think goes up nine points.”

And so all the voters that Abdul struggled most with are disproportionately a larger portion of the electorate in 2020 in the in the general election. And I think we, you know, he once again, this is another progressive candidate running on a working class agenda who did not win working class voters. And he, you can't, there's no other way to win Michigan, right? So I think like I wrote a bunch of things for Abdul to do. I'll just give you a couple of them here.

The first one was unify and sort of a, you know, win with grace.

And he has done that thus far. That that thing that's going in the right direction. The second thing was he has to really think about. How to not just do better with black voters, but to make increase turnout with black voters for him. You know, when you can argue that millions and millions of dollars of ads that basically suggested that Barack Obama had enjoy silly Stevens contributed to this.

And I'm sure it did. Yeah, but also historically candidates with Abdul's profile of sort of this progressive candidate do poorly with black voters. And so he's got work to do there. I hope he calls Barack Obama today. Yeah.

And so I was to think about how he could be helpful. And other Michigan Democrats and others who can help him in that community can be validaires in that community.

“He's got to be, I think the lesson here is he needs to think really hard about how to make himself more broadly appealing.”

I think his campaign was I found so much of it inspiring and exciting and like from communications and messaging perspective. He's really masterful in a lot of ways. But I really, the vibes you got was I really like my way or the highway. You're with us or you're against us. And he now has to go out and persuade a lot of people.

Some of them we voted for Haley Stevens. Some of them who are just middle of the road independent voters who have not thought about politics of once since when he's 24. To support him. Many of those people are going to disagree with him on Medicare for all. On some of the things he said in the past.

They're going to disagree with him on Israel. There's real work to do with Jewish Democrats in Michigan. And you have to.

“You have to be willing to seem like you are open to listening.”

Opening to understanding, opening to a greedy disagree and open to compromise. Yeah, and as you and if you looked at the way that his primary his primary campaign was entirely centered around. And this was an effective strategy because he won maximizing his base. Rallies with Bernie, many of the final ads had AOC in them. She's a very, very popular Democrat.

And they weren't. But he did very little to try to show himself to be different than the caricature from self. As this like sort of prototypical leftist candidate.

A moderate Democrat who endorsed them.

A business leader who would endorse him. A former Republican or something like that or putting it like he talks all the time. And I know this happens. Of these triple Trump voters who are going to who supported that dual in this primary. Because Michigan is open primary.

Why are those people in ads? Yeah, right. You're going to have to do some things that have a much more broadly appealing.

There's more they'd reach us.

“You have to actively reach out to people to not agree with you.”

And the last thing is like you really really have to think hard about. We know he had a very economically centered message money in your pocket. What is it that did not work with that was working class in Democrat? Let alone working class independence or working class dissolution Trump voters. Is it that it wasn't specific enough?

Is it that people because of the way the race played out? People thought that wasn't a top priority.

And maybe it was they thought it was top priority was money in the politics or.

80 Israel.

“I think this this whole conversation about working class voters in the Democratic primary.”

Sort of like gotten out of hand. Because like we thought we did this with the platinum thing in Maine as well. Like just a few like Democrats have been doing poorly with working class voters for a long time as you know. And that is true of moderate Democratic candidates. It's true of liberal Democratic candidates.

It's true progressive Democratic candidates. Like we have been losing working class voters to the Republicans under Donald Trump especially that is he is accelerated it. And it used to be just white voters and now under Trump it was Latino voters and some black men as well right. So it is a party-wide problem. The left says if you just like you know press the economically populist button hard enough.

They suddenly you're going to win over the working class voters that has not there's not a lot of evidence that that is true. The establishment and center left Democrats are like well the left can't do this and they're not they say that they're economically populist but they can't get the working class voters. But it's like you know what the establishment candidates aren't really doing that. There's not a lot of evidence that the establishment candidates are doing that much better with the working class voters that you would actually need to win in a close state.

Yes, in a primary. The president of the state is going to look more working class than adults but like in a general election it's not like there is any Democrat you can point to in the last 15 fucking years who's really made inroads to the working class. In a way that would that would solve this problem which leads me to believe. Which is one thing you could take from this is it is not just about talking up affordability or the right affordability message or the right economic message like. The cultural social concerns that the working class has have which is why they have moved away from the Democratic party that I think we all have to contend with here because it's like wise Jared Golden winning them in in Maine too.

And is like as moderate as they come on a host of issues but it's not some like economically populist hero. I agree with your I agree with your point here, I think if you're trying to win this race and you just lost in working class voters in a Democratic primary.

“And the core of your message was pro working class is worth taking a step back and trying to figure out what you need to do to at least perform better than Kamala Harris did with those voters in Michigan so you can win.”

Yeah, I guess the way one way to think about it is we went through this in a way. Right, like we were in a primary with Hillary that lasted 45 years and every single state she won working class voters and we did not and the reason. She won working class white voters that's one giant difference here is. The reason why Obama wins in Bernie and Bill Bradley and all this is because Obama could win college educated voters and black voters at high numbers right the rest of these voters are not doing that.

But what we heard. Incessantly is. And then it's just not working, it's just not working, why isn't it working and then you know he was he still maintained that message through the general and one meanwhile Hillary Clinton was like the hero of working class voters in 2008 and then she runs for president again 2016 and gets there clock clean. It's working class well, like these things are always suffer from small sample sizes, but the example for Abdul is Obama, which is we worked really hard to get those voters and we did it in a lot of ways that were.

Calner to what a typically a typical progressive Democrat would do based on the playbook we spent a lot of time talking about the deficit and making sure people's taxpayer money was spec. And we're going to have the guy from Dave he was going to go through the budget line by line with their you know Obama was very.

You just I don't want to overlook the fact in both in Obama's case in Abdul's case race plays a role here course right the fact that he is that Obama's a black man and Abdul is a Muslim American.

“I don't really place a role and and that then puts a higher burden on you in the general election because life is not fucking fair to do some things that show because of the ad we just saw that show that you can relate to these voters.”

You're going to have to find some ways that are to use the favorite term of some of our moderate friends that is heterodox or counterintuitive and the reason I want to read Israel up here because some people will argue that he needs to moderate on Israel and AIDS Israel in particular to win and he has done this and if you actually really listen what Abdul says and when he gets asked questions he is very good at talking about. I'm about reaching out to Jewish Americans who disagree with them right so he has he has worked to do there obviously you know and all the money spent against him does not read us why he has a little bit of the stuff is it and some of his supporters and his most problems supporters are why he has a bit of the steps it but.

independent voters in Michigan and Ashley agree with Abdul on AIDS Israel independent sort of basically some very similar democrats on this issue the issue that was once you moved to the general election and once you move down scale economically the salience of the issue goes down. So I can imagine that if you're a working class voter and you have just paid attention to this race and you hear what Abdul's talking about you hear what's great not just what he says you should not listen to his full speech was breaking through in media coverage or social media conversation.

“Even in some male pieces is a pack in Israel and that that and that these voters who agree with Abdul but think it is let but care much but affordability is a much higher topic for them can believe that in his mind.”

Priority wise that AIDS Israel on that basket of issues is higher on his listen affordability and that hurt you with voters and it's one of the thing reasons democrats have suffered with these voters.

I mean and what voters think democrats top priorities are is often not the economy even when it actually is I think there's a pretty easy way to square the circle and I could see him moving towards. This is a very important part of the state which is just people are tired of their money going overseas just spent on stupid wars like Israel's part of this but like we're at war with the run right now that is a fucking disaster that Donald Trump is responsible for and Mike Rogers is supporting and Mike Rogers just told seven for the other day oh and I go around no one talks about Iran and the war mobile but by linking.

“I think it's a very important part of the state that is being a fortability concerns to mean while you've got republicans and if you put Mike Rogers in the senate they're just going to keep sending all your money overseas to fight stupid wars.”

And to like you know when it should be here in Michigan helping you afford things like I think that's a good message. Yeah first I that was one I would admit to bring that brother is that that pivot was notable in his remarks and it's going to be interesting when you get asked what how I feel about a to Ukraine in this situation. Yeah yeah that is true well we we're not providing much anymore so there's. Unfortunately there but yeah know that is it well and he's also been because I'm a mess now and someone was like what you talk about Israel the time will you not like.

You know like Egypt or other ethno nationalist governments he's like no no I don't I would not I would not give aid to them either.

Yeah he basically said yeah he doesn't believe in unconditional aid to any country.

Right which is a very good and wise and I imagine quite popular position yes right. Okay we should just talk about Michigan senate was not the only notable primary last night before we go and Michigan 7th house district which is a top target for Dems to flip. The lefty candidate will Lawrence who's the sunrise movement co founder beat two more moderate Democrats who split the vote. In Michigan's 13th house district DSA candidate done of in McKinney has defeated incumbent Democrat Shreethanadar by three points and Kansas the more progressive state senator Cindy holster beat Democratic governor Laura Kelly's picked to succeed her state senator Ethan Corson.

But over in Missouri incumbent house Democrat Wesley Bell crushed Cory Bush who was trying to win her old seat back by 59 to 37 we got a moderate Senate Democratic candidate in Kansas Adam Hamilton whose primary victory there moves the race from solid are to likely are. And elsewhere in Washington and Indiana and something and elsewhere in Washington and Virginia incumbent moderate established Democrats all won their races despite some of them facing challenges from the left. Anything else I missed and any any takes on the rest of the primaries from last night.

And there's a.

And you can overstate these things Lawrence one a three way race.

So we'd be interested what would happen if he did one on one with either of the two moderates maybe he still would have one then to but the anti Lawrence vote was much larger than Lawrence vote. The Schreethon at our race is he is a particularly unpopular Democrat but still impressive because and come as don't get knocked off that much then you have the Wesley Bell Cory Bush one which is he example of this he was was very was supported heavily by APAC. Wesley Bell was the APAC supported his his victory against Corbush last time there's a lot of baggage from white Corbush that lost the first time scandal stuff there that affected it and I think Bell apparently I guess in the eyes of his position has been effective legislator in this time but if you if you want to like what happened last night is I think consistent with the theme we've seen all primary season which is.

He embraces with the right candidates and the right situations progressive anti establishment candidates have the advantage in the primary against. The more traditional candidates you would expect to win. I do think you're point about Michigan 7th where if they're heard only been one candidate they think William Lawrence instead of two.

“They very well he will very well could have lost and I think for you know moderate Democrats who were worried about this or worried about you know this sort of this progressive.”

This sort of this progressive wave like if you don't want a DSA candidate to win like figure out one candidate to take on that first I mean this is this is really hard because.

You know I look at that and I'm like well most people could be wrong but the general bull this is Michigan 7th is just a trump one by one point it's a list of slogans all district Democrats should win at this time around. Most of the people whose job it is is right in the house believe pretty strongly that either prison prank or Matt Mazden would. In that race this is it is a toss up at best with Lawrence whether that's correct or fair I don't know but so in one sense you're like why can't these people in Washington figure this should out and get one person on the race.

The race is saying hey we're like hey DSC C stop endorsing in these primaries you know why are you endorsing Hayley Stevens and Janet Mills and all these other people and just let the voters decide but I think there are some lessons here like.

If not the people watching but if the folks who really are focused on.

“Electing more moderates or more electable or more heter ox Democrats whatever you else you want do have to get there should together and I think.”

What happened in. Michigan 7 and what happened in Michigan Senate where most there's a strong argument that Abdul was less electable then Hayley Stevens that's sort of a mood point right now but is that. There are a lot of people in the democratic party with the authority in the experience and the trust to tell democratic primary voters. How to think or even to tell candidates which one of them should get out and you end up in situations like these where. The candidate who in a normal election year might not have one will win this year because the establishment doesn't have the credibility to tell voters they're not if they can say who's more electable the voters aren't going to believe them.

“This is a conversation will be having for like the next year to years so we don't have to do it all now but yeah I think it's less like I don't I think the ability of.”

Some democratic establishment to like move pieces on a chessboard to get the right people that they want races is like not the best strategy but I do think. It argues for compelling candidates who break out from the crowd who are also not like like they don't have to be DSA candidates but they can at least. How like there's plenty of I think mainstream democrats and tough races who I would say the left is probably fine with johnoss office an example right like johnoss office taken some votes that are you know pretty moderate votes or things that left left is might be upset about but like people are generally fine with him because he is a compelling candidate and now we're looking you know you look in Wisconsin right now it's.

Right like in the governor's race and they had a lieutenant governor who had to drop out because the scandal. Mandela Barnes also drops out partially because the scandal partly because he didn't break through we got David Crowley who you're going to be talking to on Thursday show. I'm who last minute got evers endorsement now they're trying it's just like you got to have you got to run candidates who can really break through and at least say have a message and have an agenda that people who would normally vote for some of these DSA progressive candidates would still find appealing.

The model here in the example is Josh Turk. Yes, who was a more moderate candidate believed to be more electable was supported by Schumer world and benefit benefit from 10 million dollars and super back spending for that but was able to.

Yeah, and now obviously he is a very unique by a very unique profile, but the way for moderates to win is to find candidates who do not appear to be just like establishment totes right.

“Right, they have a guy ego in Arizona in 2024 as is another example that right we're talking honestly yeah yeah different profile but.”

You know and but we're also in a different world now where everyone is going almost everyone is going to face a primary and if you think there are a lot of primaries in 2026. 2028. Fun stuff okay when we come back I talk to senator Bernie Sanders.

I'm a podcast host journalist and now with my newest project the author of my own manifesto.

Well it's a manifesto about manifestos my search for inspiration in a world that feels more infuriating more out of its freaking mind with each passing hour.

“manifestos are a call to action an artful scream they capture our anger and they try to do something with it.”

This is my attempt to take the manifesto back from mass shooters and nihilists and return it to its rightful place with the warriors the visionaries the regular folks with just the right amount of crazy. I compare notes with radicals, secessionists, internet trolls out for a laugh and punk singers screaming their guts out all trying to turn their anger into the world they want to see. I'll tell you why you tell me what you think. Here is a guy who took on the entire democratic establishment in Michigan okay.

Took on the entire national democratic establishment okay.

And then took on 70 million dollars of super pack and outside funding about 30 million of it coming from a pack.

Now help me out here you know something about these things yeah have you ever heard that they candidate in a major race getting out spent nine to one. Taking on the entire establishment and winning. No, not not a primary like that now we now we've got to win the general though that's then they would really be then it would really be extraordinary. And then I think it would really be an incumbent and Detroit will be the next congressman will Lawrence one in Lansing a strong victory I think he stands a good chance to win in the members well.

Yeah, it ended up being a really close race dual one by about a point. What is the close finish tell you about where democratic voters are right now especially you know the 720,000 or so who voted for Haley Stevens. I would it certainly was a close race I was up to three o'clock go four o'clock in the morning so if I fall asleep don't take it personally.

“But you have to understand that 70 million dollars was spent against this guy.”

So want to rephrase the question and say if it was a fair fight financially. And there was no spending difference how many points what do you want by 10 20 points maybe I don't know. But all in all I think it was an extraordinary victory. I think the message right now and I think Haley Stevens was very gracious and a concession speech and she was exactly right. We understand that we have the most dangerous president in the modern history not the modern in the history of the United States.

And we have got to elect Democrats a democratic controlled the Senate and the House and we've all got to work together to make that happen and I think I would suspect that the old warming majority of the people who voted for Haley Stevens understand that. So looking at the map. Abdul dominated in college towns highly educated areas. He didn't do as well in sort of the working class city and blue collar suburbs and this has been a pattern with more progressive candidates and democratic primaries. With I think your presidential races being the notable exception that I can think of.

I think and again let's remember that what last night was a pattern.

It was consistent with what we have seen all over this country, by the way, in the last year from Mombani's victory in New York City. To, uh, may lights, uh, kiddos's victory in Colorado and a lot in between. Progressives are winning John and winning for a lot of reasons were often winning as was the case last night with a huge turnout. I think correct me if I'm one. That was a record breaking turnout.

Yes, yeah, that can happen by accident. It happened because among other things, Abdul was able to bring out a lot of young people who previously did not get involved in the political process. And a lot of people are kind of given up on politics. But I have absolute confidence that Abdul's message of economic justice of demanding the billionaire's pay their fair share of taxes. And I'll tell you something else, this guy's a doctor and I desperately need him in the U.S. Senate to help me and others move toward a Medicare for all single pay up program.

“I think it's going to resonate all over Michigan with the Democrat Republican or independent.”

Do you think it's harder to reach working class voters with that message? Do you think that they just, they, you know, people are busy and they're not paying as close attention to politics? Like, what do you, how do you think about that? And you got, you know, you got the Internet phenomenon and algorithms of where people see what they want to see and what they have seen yesterday. So it's hard to break through that.

But what has excited me about Abdul's campaign and again, and not only did it in New York, others have done it, is he has people at thousands and thousands of people out on the street and one of the differences drawn between our campaigns and establishment Democratic campaigns.

They always have more money than we do.

They hire great consultants, they do good 30 second ads. We put people out on the street knocking on doors. And I think in Abdul's case in Michigan, we're going to have to have thousands and thousands of people knocking on doors explaining to Republicans. Do you really think that's the good idea?

“Do you have tax breaks, the billionaires, and cut back on healthcare and education, et cetera, et cetera?”

So it's an enormous amount of work to be done. It's going to be done in a grassroots way. I think we win. So as you look to the fall, what is, you know, Abdul's probably going to face even more money than he did in the primary.

It's obviously a tougher electorate.

What's one thing he has to do and he has campaign has to do that they haven't done yet? I think we still have more work to be done within the African American community. Maybe the women's community. But there are great leaders in the state of Michigan and all of this country who I think will help us make that happen. So you've endorsed a lot of progressive candidates like Abdul the cycle.

You mentioned a few others who won last night. There are also a lot of progressive candidates, DSA candidates running who you haven't endorsed. How do you decide which progressive candidates get your endorsement and which don't? Well, you know, we're not, you know, some kind of huge machine here. So we have to be kind of have to pick and choose.

One of the things that people don't know is that we have also endorsed dozens and dozens and dozens. We call it down ballot candidates. People are running for school boards, city council, state legislature, mayor, and small towns. And that in a sense becomes if you like the farm club. The future leaders of America, some great people in legislature right now that we've helped to get elected.

And we have trained, by the way, we have programs that say, "Hey, you want to run for office? This is how you send that a press release. This is how you do social media, et cetera, et cetera." But we have, you know, limited, limited resources. So what we do is, "Hey, what do you stand for? What do you stand for?"

If you are a moderate liberal type Democrat, that's great. There are other people who support you, that's not us. Do you support Medicare for which is more or less what I think. If you would ask me if there's one litmus test, probably Medicare for all would be it. I do support attacks on billionaires.

Are you prepared to take on the oligarchs? What is your view about the extremist government in Israel? So you need that information, but that's not enough.

“Then you have to say, "Look, you can, and I have seen this, I've experienced this.”

People have really, they're really smart, they have great answers, everything. They can't run a campaign. You know, it's not easy putting together a campaign. And I've dualed it by the way. Not everybody can do it."

How many volunteers do you have?"

Well, we don't have any. You're raising any money. No, we're not. Okay. Well, it's nice having a nice day. You're a great guy, but we're not going to support you.

So those are some of the things that we look at. I noticed, you haven't yet endorsed in the Wisconsin Governor's race.

“What's your thinking there and might you endorse, sir?”

I don't think so. I've met a friend, Francesca, a couple of years ago. I was in Wisconsin, and she seems very, very nice. But again, this is a race. I just am not that familiar with.

We have not gotten involved in many governance races. I think we did one in Maine with Troy Jackson. Obviously, my major concern right now is seeing that we have a Senate and a house that is going to stand up to Trump. That's really where my focus is.

So as of now, we have not been involved in that race.

So your brand of progressive politics has always been focused on

the material needs of working-class people. And I would say that to the extent that you've broken from democratic party policy, it's usually around economic issues, health care, et cetera. There are some DSA candidates today, including some who've won their primaries this cycle, who've also talked about abolishing prisons,

defunding, or even abolishing the police, abolishing borders. You've never been for any of that. Are you worried that taking those positions, which are unpopular with most voters and even most Democrats, sort of hurt the movement that you've worked really hard to build?

Well, you don't look. And people have different views, and what you know, as well as I do, that the right wing, that's their job, right? They will take what one person said and put, you know, $80 billion of TV ads on it and make it claim every Democrats

supports that. I know serious person than I know who is running for office, believes in court, unquote, deep funding. The police, I was a mayor for eight years. I worked very closely with cops.

They have a very difficult job. Do we need police reform? Do we need to get rid of racism? We're in police departments, absolutely. Are there jobs that other people can be doing in terms of mental health,

drug addiction and outfalls on a cop's shoulders? Yeah, I think we should look at that. But nobody, I know, you know, believes in defunding the police in terms of doing away with prisons. I hope the day comes.

I hope the day comes. When we don't lead the world and the number of people who are in costory, that speaks very poorly about a society. Does that mean that there should not be dangerous people who should be behind bars?

Of course, everybody agrees with that. Open board is not. We all, most of us believe in comprehensive immigration reform, not opening up all the board is. But a lot of this stuff as you well know is what the right

wing plays on and multiplies on Fox, you know, ten times a day and through their ads. But most of the serious candidates that I know and support do not support those things. You have, you made a really compelling case that the party,

Democratic Party can't just be anti-Trump, that we have to be forced on something.

On the other hand, you never want to promise

voters things that you can actually get done.

“And I think about this just in terms of the next two years”

in this cycle, right? So a bunch of Democrats wouldn't say everything goes well and we take Congress, Trump still president for two years. What do you think Democratic candidates running today can realistically promise voters in terms of a democratic

Congress the next two years? I would look at, that's a good question that you raised. I would look at it a little bit differently. Okay. I would not start off by saying,

"Oh, Donald Trump is president. You know, he probably vetoing each serious and good piece of legislation therefore we can't bring it up." That's not the way I look at it. All right.

I look at it from the position of, and let me be very clear, you may agree with me, you may not. I think the system is horrifically broken. In many ways, we're on a Titanic right now. Every place you look, whether it's healthcare,

whether it's transportation, whether it's education, whether it's a corrupt campaign finance system, whether it is oligarchy and massive income and wealth inequality, whether it is climate change. I mean, I can go on and on.

It's scary stuff. I mean, we're living in really crazy times. And then on top of that, you got Donald Trump as president. Who does everything? You know, does the wrong things every single day?

“So I think the first thing you do, John,”

and what my politics is about, is to be honest with people. Is that what I don't stop? What can you do? What are the problems facing?

Are you all right? You're worried that you can't afford to go to college? With the richest country on earth? What should we do? The God determined that public education

and the 12th grade, can we make public colleges and university tuition free? Do you think that zero or four is important for a kid's development? Of course you do.

Should we have universal and free childcare so that all families can enjoy? Yeah, you can.

That's great idea. How are you going to pay for it? Well, okay. That's another issue. Maybe we demand that large corporations

“and the wealthiest people stop paying their fair share of taxes.”

Maybe we don't spend 1.1 trillion on the military. But this is what I believe, John. And it really is that the heart of my politics. You got to deal with where people are at. They are hurting.

They are giving up on democracy in many cases because they don't see government do anything for them. So what my strategy would be to answer your question is if I had the power and I have some power, I will say to the Democrats, you gain control of the house.

You gain control of the Senate. Say what you're going to do.

In the first two, three, four months,

you're going to pass Medicare for all. And Mr. Trump wants the veto it. Let him. And we're going to explain to the American people why he beat her. And we're going to lower prescription drug costs

to the price that other countries are other world are paying. He's going to beat all that. But we're going to raise the minimum wage. We're going to raise taxes on billionaires. Let Mr. Trump say no.

And when he says no, we have transformed politics. Because the next time around, we'll win a landslide. That's my view of politics.

Well, looking ahead to the 2028. I mean, you've been so outspoken on AI. And it's clearly going to be a huge issue. Not just in this election, but again, in 2028 when we actually have a presidential race.

What do you hope to hear from Democratic candidates in the Democratic Party in terms of how we handle artificial intelligence? John, there are easy answers and there are hard ones. And I got to tell you, of all of the issues out there.

This one, you know, how, you know, why you can't sleep at night. This is one of them. Now, maybe I'm great. And it may well be, look, I --

Yeah, first of all, we start off with the assumption

that nobody knows what's going to happen. Right? Right. You don't -- I don't -- nobody does it. You know, Elon Musk doesn't know -- nobody knows.

Here is my nightmare. This is what I worry about.

“You're looking what I think we can agree on”

as the most transformational technology in the history of humanity. Okay, it's going to make the industrial revolution seem like a piece of cake. This stuff is moving quickly in every aspect of our society.

How many millions of jobs will be lost? I don't know. What happens to the work of Europe? 50-year-old truck driver. And now you've got to drive a little vehicle

taking your job. What happens, deal? You're a kid graduating college. There's no entry-level job. What happens to you?

You're a lawyer. You look firm in the long and easy. What happens to you? So economically, I worry about it. I worry about it also.

And I say all these things. And the reason I am fighting these fights is I don't have all the answers. But somebody got to start this discussion and talk about it.

All right, democracy. All right. Tomorrow they will probably be some kind of deep fake of me on your program saying how much I love Donald Trump

or what a great job he is, right? All right. All right. So is that happened to you? No, not yet.

I'm going for it. Yeah, it'll happen. All right. So you're at a moment where people look at the internet.

We don't know truth from fiction. Right? You really don't? Yeah. You've seen no deep fake stuff.

Yeah. All right. So if a day before the election,

“and you saw what happened to this guy Thomas Massey,”

where it was alleged, they had a video of him walking into a hotel room with two young congresswoman, right? Why did older people in Kentucky

believe it? Some did. All right. How do you deal with that and protect democracy? How and what worries me very much?

Reading scores for our kids is in decline. You know that? Yeah. Writing capabilities. Cognitive capabilities.

Kids are addicted to screens. How do you deal with that? Recently we've seen instances of AI escaping human control. I talked to a Nobel Prize winner

who thinks that as AI becomes smarter than human beings, we could face an existential threat. All right. These are huge issues. We need to have a, we need to slow it down.

That's the first thing we need to do. Mr. Massey cannot run the world. And his friends. So that's what I worry about. Same.

It's one of the things that keeps me up at night for sure. And especially having two young boys who go into the education system. You want to make sure they are trained for actual jobs that are going to exist out there. And not just looking at their screens.

Senator Sanders.

Thank you as always for joining positive America.

I really appreciate the time. Well, thank you, John. Keep up the great work. Thanks. That's our show for today.

Thanks to Bernie for coming on. And, uh, Dan and I will be back with the new show and your feed on Friday.

Pods in America is a cricket media production.

“Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin,”

McKenna Roberts, and Ferris Safari.

With Reed-Gerlin, Elijah Cone, and Adrian Hill.

“Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben Hefko,”

Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landist, Carol Pelevi,

David Tolz, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengel.

“Our staff is probably unionized with the writers Guild of America East.”

[Music]