Is the Progressive Takeover Real?

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Welcome to Pods Av America. I'm Alex Wagner. On today's show, MSNow's Chris Hayes. Stop by to talk about recent progressive wins. How Democrats find their path to victory in 2026 and beyond.

And who is winning the war for American attention? Chris and I dug into candidate strategies as the midterms draw ever closer, as well as how the Democratic Party can rally around its new Senate candidate in Michigan, Abdul Elsaid. We also talk 2028 and how these midterms this November might influence the party in the wild ride ahead.

It was a great conversation, and we're going to get to it in just a minute.

But first, a little housekeeping.

“If you have not gotten tickets for Crooked Con yet, what are you doing?”

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Joining me now in a tank top for those of you who are not watching on YouTube. Yes, should be. Please hit subscribe while you're at it. Is the one and, oh, look at those guns seasoned. What is it? Say, Sun's Out Guns Out Guns Out Guns Out Guns Out Guns Out Guns Out Guns Out Guns Out is the great Chris Hayes.

But it's always great to see it, especially in the summer.

It's pure August right now, so I'm not even. It's giving real Friday. It's also recording this on a Friday not. We sure are. So you know, if you didn't think he was wearing a hot pink tank top and a gold chain drink in Celsius like there's no coming to what you go.

Okay, I was hoping it was Celsius. That would have just been a little bit more unbranded. They're show tonight and that's, that's a hard rule. Got it. There's a hard rule when it's had to enforce.

They learned the hard way. Yeah.

“I was really excited when we had a big primary on Tuesday and we thought, who can help us unpack what the fuck happens now?”

Who is wise, but also just ballsy enough to say what they really think and Chris Hayes, you're up. On. You won. Let's start with kind of where we sit as you say on Friday after the Michigan primary ahead of the Wisconsin primary are progressives having a moment. Yes or no.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a huge, you know, one of the weird things that happened in elections is we interpret the results against the benchmark of polls as opposed to the benchmark of like fundamentals. So like, you know, I remember 2020, people, that was a disappointing election night for Democrats in 2020, because it was all much closer than the polls have predicted. Yeah, Sarah Gideon was going to be Susan Collins and she lost by 12 points and, you know, there's a bunch of races like that. So, but you got to take this step back and say, what happened here was that the polling was wrong, right?

He ran against Christian Whitmer.

“When a narrow victory over a candidate who I think is not a great candidate as like politicians go, not a great, but did have the backing of the state party essentially behind her both the incumbent senator Gary Peters and the incumbent governor.”

Whitmer you had $60 million in outside spending on her side against Abdul al-Said.

And he emerged victorious in a swing state in which look, there's a theory of the case here why a progressive outspoken progressive candidate can win a statewide swing state race. They have a theory of the case and I think it's actually a relatively persuasive one, but it's also like there's reason to be worried about it. And just like there it's I mean, they're just like and despite all that he did emerge victorious and I just think there's no universe in which he would have emerged victorious two four six years ago like something is obviously happening among and let's be clear here.

“The democratic primary electorate, which is a different electorate than the general electorate, right?”

And a different electorate than the presidential general electorate, we're talking about concentric circles, but yes, it was a huge win for progressives for sure.

At the risk of sounding like I'm glazing for seven years that term Abdul al-Said, I do think there's a really something to be set like the redefinition of what electable means is changing. Issues that he's talking about it's the first time I've seen a glimmer of an authentic answer to what it means to be a populist and to be on the left and and take rightfully the mantle of economic populism and like really appealed to working class voters in an authentically progressive way that's like really steals it from maga convincingly like I felt like he was very like you know,

Abdul al-Said, we'll talk about Israel in the second, but just on the economic issues on health care on jobs like he was relentless on beating this drum in a way that felt utterly authentic and very much in line with what Democrats maybe should have been talking about for decade for years now, not a decade.

“Yeah, and I think that points to what the theory of the case for the progressive left is about how to win cross pressure swing state elections, right?”

Is that people are pissed off of the status quo. They don't like foreign wars and money going abroad. Again, these are like the cross pressured voters you can win.

They're pissed off with the economic status quo, things are too expensive and they are enraged at the billionaires and the corporations and the tech lords that want to put data centers in their backyards and that this is a cluster of issues that are both squarely in the kind of progressive populist wheelhouse and also can win people who aren't just down the line progresses, right? And if you focus that that's the theory here and and they I mean again, it's going to get tested. Oh, it sure is it sure is both and not just in Michigan. I mean, I think also it's this is we're talking these are precursors to national debates that we're going to have for the next two years.

And what happens here is going to have a huge impact on those national debates, particularly the presidential primary about who and what is electable. And so so when you hear when we talk about Abdul Sayed and to some degree when we talk about like Zora Mamdoni. How do you square that with Abigail Spanberger and Mikey Cheryl and Cory Bush being beaten in Missouri by Wesley Bell, who was backed by APAC in the state. I mean, I mean, I mean, we're talking about very different constituencies and very different places with different electorates and different issue profiles.

That's one. I mean, I mean, it's sort of a boring and deflating thing to say all politics is local, but that is a big part of it like we're talking about very different constituencies and very different places with different electorates and different issue profiles. Two, none of this stuff is linear, right? So it's like in the it's like the stock market goes up and it goes down and it goes up and it goes down over a 30 year period it's gone up, right? So it's like. If you take sort of take a step back, it's like, is the progressive left growing and shrink inside the Democratic party in the aggregate over the last 10 years.

Yes, like pretty clearly. Yes, right? Like since 2016, I think the answer since the Bernie primary, you know, defeat. I think the answer is very clearly. Yes. Now in individual cases that doesn't mean like they're winning everything and no, there's there's a lot of variation. So the last thing I would say here about, I'll do all of a sudden and mom Donnie. And this was true of platinum or two before he dropped out. So think about. What are the gates that you go to go through to become a candidate through the traditional, let's people call it a establishment. Let's say traditional channels, right? It's like.

Being a really, really great communicator is nice to have, but not necessary, to ascend up the ranks in the traditional politics. So.

“I like Troy Jackson. Right. Yes, exactly. Who got pretty high in main politics. Yeah, even Abigail Spamberger is a perfectly good communicator, but she's not like electric electric, right? If you are not going that route.”

And you are going to have success. You have to be a really dazzling communicator. So you're, you've got a different set of features that are being selected for. So the reason that you get platinum lighting up main on fire and the reason mom Donnie is able to win that primary coming out of nowhere. The reason I think Abdul Sayad ends up winning a very hard fall at split vote win is that they're just extremely gifted communicators. Yeah. Now, that's not all that matters in politics because another thing that happens through the gate checking that happens through the normal ascension politics is some vetting is some like is this person got some stuff in their past that's going to blow up.

So we saw like a rocket ascendancy via tremendous charisma and political talent in Grand Platner completely blowing up, right? So.

“But but I think that distills down a little bit when you point to mom Donnie and Abdul's I said it's it's it's both and right, the ideological firm and test to be there, but you have to be really good to capture it.”

Well, okay. So where does that leave you on for we're saying this you're going to be hearing this episode on the eve of the Wisconsin primary where Francesca Hong. Well, who is not a dazzling communicator? No. And who Bernie Sanders who's been kind of like a mini king maker in this primary season on pods of America with my colleague John Favre did not specifically endorse her. Do you have a theory of the case on that is that because there's a sense that she's going to lose and she's not actually one of the future stars of the party of the of the left of the party.

There's a few things going on one is the sort of there has been a sort of comedy of errors among the sort of establishment or the democratic party that has led to this moment in terms of Mandela Barnes drops out Sarah Dregas who is going to be who is kind of the sort of consensus pick but had an enormous kind of a basically a her finance director. Get a whole bunch of stuff she shouldn't have it's unclear like the extent of it but she drops out so one is just like one of these kind of you know the kind of car crash that happens that you're sort of around for the other thing is yes there is a desire for there is the primary base the primary voting democratic base is to the left of both the median voter and the median like democratic politician.

“In a lot of cases hung is taking advantage of that the other thing that's really important here is.”

No one in that primary has gone up with TV ads but for the Republican super PAC that spent five million dollars boosting home.

This is part of the thing that people have not talked about but is a big part of the story there no one else is spending. The state party in Wisconsin has a lot of money partly because of how good a job benwickler has done through the years they won't spend until the general they're not spending the primary the primary candidates have been spending there has been five million about dollars of outside money spent to boost hung. By Republican interests because they think she's she's beatable and the last thing I'll say here. What you see in Sanders not endorsing on and even Hassan Piker wrapping her on the knuckles for her Thanksgiving answer.

Is that everyone actually understands that there's a penalty for ideological extremism. But people kind of pretend not to it's like we all get that there is kind of a bell curve of political views and you do you don't want to be too far from the center and and everyone gets that and everyone loves a winner. No one wants to be associated with the loser so this sort of a send in movement. It doesn't want to feel like huh just proves their theory if and when she loses because I don't know anything she's yes exactly that people who like fireworks yes right on people who like the fourth of July.

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I bet I know where you sit on this but like rom a man who's probably running from president in twenty twenty eight is very worried about the DSA the democratic socials of America. And writes in a wall street journal op ed this week when the DSA attempts to turn safe democratic states and districts a darker shade of blue democratic candidates in swing districts are put at a distinct disadvantage. And these one ares just shut the fuck up about the DSA for right now like what is the answer there how would you like to see them grapple with this dynamic.

“Well part of the thing I would say is that I think there's like there is a kernel of truth to it, but also.”

Are you helping by putting attention on if the whole thing you're wrong you've alienated a crucial part of the base that you're going to actually need to try and win over.

And real and this is a real paradox I think of what we might call like this term that got started used as popularism right which is a broad term that democrats had to sort of move back to center align themselves with the with with views that had majority support. And there's a certain week version of that argument that's almost total logically true like like yeah when you run for office you want to be mirrorish the center of the voters that you're appealing to. Now the question of like what is the center and what's the issue space and what's salient and how you get it as a whole complicated thing and that's harder than it looks.

But one of the things that we saw happened with the labor party in the UK which tested this theory. They came into office and they're like we're going to engage in a bunch of high salience high profile fights with the left flank of our party. Which meant we're going to put immigration and trans issues in the paper all the time there are worst issues we know that from the polling. But we're going to pick a bunch of high profile fights so everyone's constantly talking about it all the time. And guess what it didn't work now because why would you want to talk about the things even if you're trying to get to the center on it.

And you end up raising the salient so it's like don't work. Stop it and probably run things that Josh Turk is being hurt at the margin by Daria Lisa shovel yay winning her primary in Washington Heights which is not a crazy idea. So I was talking about that in the Wall Street Journal. Help it. She already won. She won and the Wall Street Journal. And at this point what how are you helping him by being like boy these people are really a problem and they're going to be a problem for the Josh Turk the world.

Just talking about something else. That's not helping Josh Turk. Right and it's nor is it just waiting people in the DSA from mounting like making their case right because the other thing is she won that election like right.

“The voters of the voters now. Can I argue against myself for a second to sure I mean that's why we we thought you would do both of these things is why we only did one booking today.”

Because I do think there's a little bit of this.

Let's all just can see the fundamental idea that a primary electorate can select a candidate who is poorly optimized for a general election.

Yes, which we've seen for many many years now under Donald Trump of course. So it's like the idea of like who's electable now we just want the primary it's like no no that's a different electorate. It doesn't mean anything like. And again, I think most people think more sophisticated fashion clearly that folks in Michigan do like like we said earlier. I'll say it has a theory of the case. But I do think there's a little bit of this like the way I think about it is in order to get to the MBA. A basketball player has to have a completely delusional sense of their own ability or they won't make it.

Right. That is an adaptive quality in the player, but the scouts can't have that and the other people have to be clear.

Right.

“To win as a candidate to be as warm on down, you have to have a kind of delusion of your own ability, but everyone else should be pretty clear.”

That like, yeah, there's a trade-off about where you are on the ideological spectrum that and it is possible that you engineer a very motivated disproportionately highly educated democratic primary electorate. That selects for candidates who are too ideologically extreme to win generals. This is just a obviously a true thing. Right. So just because you're winning the primary to whom you could. The CLDR is primary is our generals. Yeah.

I'm a Christian Emma which I don't know. I wonder, I'm always like galled by this and I kind of wonder where you sit because Donald Trump's making hey as our is every single Republican in the party about the fact that democratic socialists are in the Vanguard and they're all commies and they're going to be coming for your money and your children should they win in 2026 and 2028. At the same time that Donald Trump is like nationalizing private enterprise and has these like federally run gas stations up and down the east coast like he's practicing socialism and like I'm not going to art like maybe it's time for the federal government to it like our gas subsidies.

I mean, there's a case to be made for a lot of this intervention and I'm not saying we should be nationalizing private enterprise. But should Democrats point out the sort of socialist tendencies of this administration as hypocrisy or is it just too fraught to be aligning yourself in any way with the most questionable parts of the Trump agenda.

“Yeah. It's a great question. I mean, it's a really important intellectual point, which is that I have never seen a president in my lifetime.”

Who was more antagonistic to free markets to the fundamental sort of like he's like gas is too high. Chevron and exoner making too much profit. He does he truly does not believe in free markets. And he truly is illiberal on that sense in the old classical like sense of the word like remember. Adam Smith's wealth of nations is written as a pandemic against what terrorists and mercantilism. Like the Donald Trump is fundamentally authoritarian illiberal and believes in a personalist controlled economy in which he makes all the choices.

And also believes like as a fund as one of his core ideological commitments, bizarrely, along with like women and people of color and inferior is that like terrors are how everything works. Like truly believes to his heart, like in his like the deepest part of him. So he's a mess ideologically. He is totally hostile to free markets. One of the things you've seen that's interesting in actually in the polling is that. If you ask people about socialism and capitalism, socialism is gaining over capitalism, but people like the notion of free markets and they also increasing like the notion of free trade, including people who consider themselves the most sympathetic DSA, which is fascinating.

I don't think the hypocrisy thing matters as much as just being like everything's expensive and he doesn't care about you. He's corrupt. No, I'm serious. Yeah, no point in making an ideological argument against that guy. I just mean as if we're joined or two, like they're all communist and socialist. It's like, well, actually you're the fucking socialist. But then that sort of painting Donald Trump with a socialist brush, which is a turnoff to every, it's like a boner killer for everybody.

That's right. He's something totally different. You know what I mean? Like he's in his own category. He's like a pretty Adam Smith monarch. Okay. Well, then that settles that no more mention of Donald Trump's socialist policies.

I do, we have to get to the thing that is actually like that not that it's not the third rail.

“No, it's like it is the thing that I think this, this week is taught us and maybe the season is teaching us, which is Israel.”

And I want to, I want to get it something that Ryan brought our covert garbage day, right? It's the Democratic 26 Democratic Civil War is a rat's nest of different schisms. It's young versus old labor versus capital, maybe progressivism versus the status quo populism versus elitism. Perhaps more than anything though, it is a conflict between the Democrats that are willing to accept money from pro Israel organizations and those who aren't.

I think it's been one of the biggest features and I do think that there's something about. There's, there's a few things.

“One is that I think a pack has made and they don't care what I think enormous tactical error.”

I agree. Did you do in service of their goals? Yes. In service of their goals and here's the argument I'm going to make. They have relied on a strategy of attempting to trick voters as opposed to making their case. So what they have done in all these cases and it happened to Michigan and the New York Times ran an analysis of this is they have spent enormous amounts of money.

Some of the most expensive primaries in history are all a pack primaries, Jamal Bowman. You know, before that the Cory Bushwoman was very expensive.

The Cory Bush was about when this time was just at 5 million in a relatively small house race.

They spent 30 here. There's another 30 that we still don't know what it was because we don't have the disclosures yet. So like maybe as that maybe not. And in all the cases, the vast majority of the ads they ran were not about Israel. They were attempts to paint the person that they were attacking as often insufficiently loyal to the Democratic Party.

Yeah. That's not what they actually believe. And it's not the case they're trying to make to the public.

“I think it is both toxic for the discourse.”

And also self-defeating to spend tons of money in the attempt to essentially trick the voters. I think it would have been better to spend the money being like we think Israel is a good ally.

What Hamas did was horrible.

They're defending themselves or whatever you want to say. Here's why Iron Dome is important and in fact having Iron Dome leads to less Israeli fatalities which also does lead to better outcomes in the region. Whatever argument you want to make. They're not making that argument. And there is something insidious about the combination of all of this money where you're trying to trick the voters.

And then when people call the money out, you're like, that's out of line. That's anti-someness. It's like, there's this old expression I love which is like throwing rocks and hiding hands. It is a lot of throwing rocks and hiding hands from the back of this point. And I sort of feel like, look, it's a free country and you've got a view.

And that view is shared.

There's a lot of Democrats that share that view.

There's a lot of particularly Jewish Democrats in my life who share that view who are defensive of the state of Israel. And they think it's under season, under threat and they don't like the direction the Democratic party is going on it.

“You have to make that argument and have the argument on its terms and not attempt to use the catastrophic citizens' united decision.”

To pour a ton of money into races in the hopes of tricking voters into electing a person allied with you, but not on the terms of the thing you actually agree in. And I think that has been an absolutely poisonous toxic. And it's not, I want to be clear. It's not just them.

Crypto's been doing the same thing. AI is doing the same thing. This idea that you're going to come in on primaries with this agenda and try to get voters to vote for your candidate. Not by making an argument that crypto is good or AI shouldn't be regulated, but rather that like that person who's not didn't vote for Kamala Harris or whatever you think is going to get the primary voter.

I just think it's a really toxic way of doing politics. It's been incredibly destructive. It really pushes the debate off into completely different territory. Well, and it also, it also ends up, it is ending up connecting in the minds of people. The Israel, the Israel, the interests and big money.

Yes. And big dark money, which is not a connection that you want to create. No, it's not a good connection for Israel. What you want to say is like, look, there's actually a lot of people in the Democratic Party who agree with us. Like, we're representing them.

And again, that's fine. Like, I have different views than APAC does on the conduct of the Warren Gaza and a bunch of other stuff. But it's true that there's a lot of Democrats who agree with them, right? Totally. No one's making that case.

And instead, APAC is aligned with nefarious outside spending and no trick, trickery effectively. And so I guess, so the inversion of that is Abdul al-Syad, you know, to great effect, talked about all the APAC money that was flooding his race. They overwhelmingly supported Haley Stevens. They are APAC is now considering pouring millions of dollars into the general election race between

Mike Rogers and Abdul al-Syad. Do you think that for a general election, campaigning against APAC's outside spending is a useful tool for Abdul al-Syad? Or like, where is the benefit of the government? Who gets the upper hand? And I think it probably is actually.

With the critique that there is something Oogie about the, like, constant invocation of the dark. Yes. That there's very... It's dark. Yeah, totally.

There isn't latent antisemitism or explicit. People getting uncomfortable with that. I don't think it's crazy.

The problem is that it is a fact of the matter.

And the other thing is, if you're going to have $60 million or $30 million in your head,

“the only thing that you could do is call it out.”

So it's like... Do you think it meaning fully? Do you think El-Syad's ability to use APAC's sort of weaponization against him is more useful to him in the general than the money that Mike Rogers could actually get from APAC? Well, I think because there's going to be an enormous amount of money dropped on his head in that race,

that's going to be across the board. It's not just like APAC will be a small fraction of it. Because it's going to be a ton of that percent majority pack stuff. I think calling out that is actually very useful. Like, just as a general thing.

And in the general, most of the money won't be... You know, by and large, it's going to be outside money from corporate interests that have all given money to Donald Trump or to Mitch McConnell's pack or whatever. And in that case, I think just taking the same line, which is like, these people want to like jack up your oil prices,

and they want to put data centers in your backyard, and they want to close down your hospitals so you can get cast text cuts, and they're spending $150-$200 million to beat me. And I think that's, you know, you use the same line there, because again, what else can you do other than, you know,

he's probably going to be outspent from the outside in this race. Because Republicans are going to put, you know, a lot of money into that race. Well, it could be the rate.

“I mean, that I mean, God forbid, you are a television viewer”

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Crooked at checkout, limited time offer rules and restrictions apply. See Blinds.com for details. I want to ask about the flip side of all this, which is,

let's talk about it, Hassan Piker. This is what Hassan Piker had to say after Abdul Alsaid, one Michigan, and people began talking about what he needed to do next.

Here is that clip. Like everyone being like, Abdul has a fuck ton of work to do, Mending Bridges. Here's the fucking take-nook for you.

Okay? You are all unbelievably Islamic public pieces of shit. Okay? You literally called the dude a fucking terrorist for months on end.

And like, called him a sexist misogynist, terrorist, bad candidate, doesn't fake doctor when he has like two fucking degrees.

And now you're gonna sit there and be like, well, you know, you really got to come to me now. Like, what are you talking about? Do you want to fucking win or not?

Lock the fucking, okay? Lock the fucking, and I do worry that there are some out there who in an effort to make sure that they, that this narrative that a progressive can win

and a state like Michigan, doesn't take root, will literally either subtly, or, you know,

not so secretively, endorse my Rogers. Okay, it is some deep paranoia that people Democrats, so threatened by the rise of democratic socialists

and hardcore progressives on the left wing would support my Rogers over Abdul Alsaid. We can unpack that in a second,

like,

“what the fuck should happen here with Hassan Piker?”

Like, what should Democrats do? I mean, is this the case where it's like, don't talk about it. We should Abdul Alsaid continue to campaign with him.

We're going to get to like his reach in a second,

but just as a specific political actor, like, should other Democrats be talking about him? I was on deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, and she wanted to ask Mallory MacMoro about Hassan Piker,

and I was just like, this just is not good for anybody on, like, like, what should happen here?

Chris. I don't really know. I mean, one level like, I think there's a little irony in like,

every, the whole discourse being like, that's a joke, and then like getting the closest thing to it, and being like,

not like that. No, no, no, no. It's like, it's like, do you ever watch Joe Rogan's show,

and says he says crazy stuff all the time? Like, it's like, and I do think, I mean,

the difference in this case,

I think there's a difference you can go on someone show, and campaigning with him, hugely, right?

So like, I think you've gone lots of people just just, I've been on Bill Marshall. Bill Marshall says all sorts of things.

I know. Not only do I disagree with you. He says somethings I really like. Fine. Oh, yeah.

Pretty, pretty broad. And more, and more often with creator frequency. Yeah. But all, you know,

again, it's a free country. So the big question is campaigning with. I don't think it makes a ton of sense in a general election,

frankly, to campaign with a son, like,

“I think you also can't control what a 35 year old streamer's going to say.”

I also think that he is learning the lesson that like,

with great power comes great responsibility.

And like, no seriously, I mean, it's one thing, it's one thing to be like,

look, this is a dude who streams like, seven days a week for years. Do you know the amount of words he said? Like,

you're going to say some stuff. And part of the part of the genre of what he's doing is saying stuff. I'm reminding a lot of Marcos Milizzi, who was who played a somewhat similar role a generation ago. Yeah.

And was would say pretty like, you know, provocative things and would curse and be like, at these people, and there was also an attempt to sort of tie him.

Like, also sort of feel like, I don't know how much the guilt by association works in the era of Donald Trump. Like,

the man had dinner with Nick Flintis. Yeah. Like, not even for any purpose other than like, let's break bread.

Like, just, let's hang out. Good thing. What's I want to hear what you're doing?

What are you trying to get his kid? What are you thinking about these days, Nick? Yeah. I'm interested in your point of view, Nick. So I do think there's a little bit of like,

the associational politics have, have lost a little bit of their sting. But the other thing is like, if Hassan Piker wants to contribute to the, the success of the movement,

like, he's probably going to have to watch what he says a lot more. And like, that's not that fun for him. And I get that like,

he's been in a different lane. But one of the things that all of us, I think with public platforms, start to learn is that like, your words of consequences.

Yeah. And it doesn't mean that you like, say things you don't believe. It doesn't mean you don't say things you do believe. But it does mean that like,

how you select your words and the way that you communicate, really does matter.

“And I think that's going to be true across the board.”

The other thing I'll just say on the substance of what he was saying was, the Democratic Party's not done. They need him to win so they can have power. Like, they're all going to,

they've all consolidated behind him. They're not so anti-DSA that they would literally see control of this. They want to control the United States Senate. But believe me,

like, very badly. (laughs) But believe him. They truly do want that.

(laughs) So probably not. But the other thing I'll say to you in the same way that I said, it's like a little bit of by the ticket to take the ride, where it's like,

Apex spent that money. And the cost of that is that you're going to get called out. Yeah. Like, Abdul Alsaid made a choice to campaign the house down,

I think it probably helped in the primary. And the cost of that is people are going to criticize that. And you've got to like, that's by the ticket to the ride. And you've got to come up with a way that you're going to talk about it.

I thought that. I thought the two best response to this was Debbie, did you see Debbie Dingle talking to Greta van Suster? Yes. Where she's just like,

he's a way to reach a lot of young people who we have a hard time reaching. And he looks good when he works out. (laughs) This is, this is the Debbie Dingle ticket.

And I was like, you know what? This is a person who is a conduit to reach people who are outside the system that I want to reach. And that's,

and that's important to me. And that doesn't mean that I agree with everything. He says, you know what I mean? It doesn't mean that I think I really gross and wrong.

Right. You do not have to endorse and turn the values of every person that everybody is you. That's right. Or endorses you. Or even works.

You know what I mean?

I can't believe I just said that that sentence.

“Who said the AOC response to TMZ or who is like,”

aren't you worried about, like, it's not just socialist and there's going to be communist. And she's like, I'm not the belief police.

People can believe that I want to believe. I believe what I believe. I'm going to try to do what I'm going to do. Like, and I do think that like that's another way of,

of sort of threading the needle here. I think it's also just,

I mean, I always think what I'm hearing in your responses.

It's like about frankness. It's about honesty. It's about not apologizing, but also not glossing over the, the rougher parts.

And don't get defensive. The other thing though, too, is, and this is the thing Mondani is good about it's like, you got to pivot to what you want the election to be about.

Yeah. And right now, there's like both the sort of mainstream media and the right wing media are like, this is an election about what Hassan Piker said about 9/11/7 years ago. By the way, can I just say this,

Ron Johnson, the sitting senator from Wisconsin, is a fully avowed 9/11 truth or, and somehow, this is like,

not a story. I'm going to,

“I think I'm going to do it either day or tune,”

because I got a whole thing about this. It's the craziest thing. His, he has gone to conferences. He has said,

basically, he thinks building 7 was a controlled demon.

Like the full 12 demolition, yeah. Jet fuel doesn't melt. Like all this stuff that you and I 20 years ago, we're hearing from like, cookie people outside,

like anti-war rally. Like, I mean, sort of legit, like straight down the line,

like, and people have been run out of public life. They have been hounded. Van Jones had to, believe his job in the White House,

because he signed something that was like, very tangentially related to 9/11 truth, about we need an investigation. Yadda yada. And run Johnson's like sitting center just being like,

yeah, I think it's probably, I don't know, but looks like it might have been an inside job. It's like,

and, and they want to like have these crazy 9/11 discussions. Um, Anyway, it just,

I can't get over that one. A good note. Good note. Just, I mean,

as a reminder,

“the depravity and delusion on the right,”

far outweighs, literally anything. Ron Johnson's on 9/11 truth. Or someone talked to him about that. Like,

Mike Rogers was talking about this. So I'm like, go call up Ron Johnson, and get his takes on 9/11. Totally.

What do you think about that? Speaking of alternative facts. No, not alternative facts, but alternative,

we were talking about a Hassan Piker, largely because of his fear of influence. And there is a real kind of gut check happening inside democratic politics right now, about what kind of media matters, what kind of messaging is resonant.

Um, Ryan broader, what I quoted before from garbage day is like lays out the two axes. As he sees them, one is the institutional access,

which includes cable news, podcasts hosted by former Obama and Biden Bros. So we are guilty as charged. The New York Times Axios Politico, the Washington Post blah, blah, blah.

And that related substacks and ex accounts with those folks. And then new media, which is left streamers like a sonpiker, YouTube essayists. He calls them dark woke podcasters,

Ryan Grimm and drop site news, blue sky users, short from form video content from the DSA, random shit posters. You are an expert in the attention economy.

Where do you see? Like if you're mapping out your 2028 presidential campaign, or even your next three months in your midterm election campaign, like where who matters, where is the like,

what is most relevant in terms of, you know, speaking to the voter? I do think one frustration that I had that, that I expressed in one of the chapters in the sirens call.

My book about the attention economy that, that had a chapter of politics, and that I said a lot when I was doing the book tour, when it came out is, the risk of version of democratic political class,

consultant class and around interviews had to go away. Like, Haley Stevens,

she never came and got her interview.

Thank you very much. Well, she was a good example, right? She was a great example. So like repeated and treaties,

begging, what can we make work? Nothing, nothing can ever work. Go talk to people. I think that is actually a big thing.

You got to go talk to people. And I think actually that's, it actually connects to one of the things we're seeing in the democratic primary electorate, which is that people want good talkers,

because they felt like they didn't get them. And I like Joe Biden, who in his prime was a great, I mean, a truly, for Del Castro level talker.

I mean, the man, I mean, good doc, truly the gift of gab.

That was not the case of the Joe Biden. That was in the White House. Basement Joe, the campaigner. And like Kamala Harris is,

I would say, a perfectly proficient communicator is a politician, but she is not a particularly great one. I would, I would go once that further.

I think she's remarkably risk-averse, and that she wants very,

And that's, and that's not politics.

That's just not politics.

Very risk-averse and very, wary in a, extemporaneous settings. And so, I think there is a desire,

Dave Weigel has made this point. I think I even, I sort of thought of this, but he's kind of articulated of like, we want a really good talker.

And it's like Barack Obama. What's great talker. Really good at talking. And again, talking is not,

I talk for a living, so I rate it. I sort of both rate it highly, and I also look for it, because I,

you know, literally this phrase, good talkers. I think that we use in our, Mm-hmm.

Booking meeting. Good idea. And that's how I want to be taught. And it's like,

is good talker correlated with,

like Donald Trump, I hate to say it, in his own weird way, is it good talker? Great.

Less so now, but I mean, I went to so many Trump rallies, and that guy could just do a routine for an hour and a half, like,

like, and loved it. So does it mean that the person is like, going to be good at the job? No.

Unfortunately, those two things don't have a great correlation, but it's also the case that, and so the reason this all relates back to your question about where you go is,

“I think you've got to be willing to go everywhere.”

And I think you've got to get your reps in, and you've got to be good at talking. And I think you've got to be good at talking. I mean, this is one of the things that got us,

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and Democrats have had a really hard time figuring out, like what is manhood look like coming from the left, and like you see these attempts at finding new models, whether it's a songpiker,

or I guess to some degree Gavin Newsom, or Graham Platner, and like it hasn't really, they haven't found the shoe that fits, I don't think. Yeah,

I'm not saying that Gavin Newsom's chances aren't significant, but like do you have a theory about how the Democrats should begin to try and answer, what is the rejoinder to like, the vile masculinity of the right,

'cause that's going to be, I think, essential, and figuring out who should lead the party, or be part of the leadership of the party in the coming years. I don't have a good answer to that,

but it's something that I puzzle a lot. I do think, I'll do all I say, it is kind of interesting, because he is... He has been charged with being a misogynist, though, and talking the way that he did about Haley's,

oh, he's roles as eyes in his pink tank top. Well,

“but I think that there are women that don't agree with you,”

even on the left, that the way he talked about Haley's Stevens was a misogynistic, and some of his attitudes still... Listen, I'm just a vessel.

Yes, I mean, I think that charge, I guess what I would say is, I think it's probably useful to separate out charges that happen in the context of a heated primary, with broader things about the person's life.

You know what I mean? Sure. This is a different thing than like, platinum, you know, like, oh, yes. I'm just saying that like,

there's just different categories of what people say against each other when they're running against each other in a primary. There was a lot of allegations that Barack Obama was being sexist towards Haley and Hillary Clinton, and I don't think it was true to Sarah Palin.

I don't really think it was true to Hillary Clinton. Some people maybe felt that it was, but I think those exist in a different space, than people that are testing to your character who have been with you outside of campaign.

You know, the whole like he can bench 315, and he's, but he's also like a doctor, and he also seems like a person who, you know,

“I don't know you said the interview he did with his mother,”

that that was really interesting. Who is an engineer, came here from Egypt, was often the only woman in a room, sort of talking to her about what that felt like,

which I thought was interesting. And also I think speaks to them, recognizing they have some work to do on that front. The way that I saw for this is the same way

and how to talk about patriotism from a center left progressive standpoint, which is like my version,

“I think Barack Obama is the best example of this,”

but I also felt this way about the World War II museum in New Orleans, which is a great museum, if anyone ever goes. Which is a sort of like progressive,

pluralistic patriotism. Like we are a great country because we are this place that is built out of all these different people from all these different experiences,

and we've screwed it up a million different ways

in a million times, but we have also kept trying to figure out how to make all these people together work. And I think that the version of masculinity is to be a man is to be a person

who is strong in a sort of inner and deep sense. And who can bend 350? And it looks out for people, and does the right thing. And people can look towards and depend on.

And to me, it's like in the same way that we learn in our civic culture about America, with the attributes that we as progressive cherish. And you're like, that's the thing I'm going for. Yeah.

“I think you take the aspects of masculinity”

that I do think have a written in the culture,

which is like strength, leadership, or dependability, or looking out for people, even protecting people. That you cultivate those,

in a broader sense of like looking out for people, looking out for people that are being bullied or being marginalized, like being the one that stands up for them. That to me is like the vision of what,

of where you kind of find the sweet spot into this answer. And I don't know how you communicate that, but that's the way my own conception of it is. I think one of the things that Democrats could really do

is kind of wrap their arms around, like someone who's loving, like and has shown themselves capable of great love, whether for children or their mother, or their spouse, or their partner,

because that's something that Trump doesn't have at all. I think really aspirational, especially to see if we're talking about a guy, like men being comfortable showing the fact that they can be lovers, and I don't mean that in like a sexy way.

No, no. But it's a real important reminder that like,

“that's what most people are looking for in life,”

is to be loved and to feel loved and to belong, and Trump's found the inverse of that, like he's found unity through hate,

like love and affection is always in season.

Sometimes it might come a rivet to doorstep and a hot pink tank top and a gold chain, Kate Shaw. Sometimes not. You are one of my favorite people on the planet.

We have known each other for 30 fucking years. I know, it's wild. And every conversation is better than the last. Oh, that's sweet. That was really fun. I'm so glad we did it. You're the best Chris Hayes. Everybody watch Chris Hayes on MSNow.

Always listen to his podcast. Why is this happening? And consume all books he writes because they're really good. Working on the next one. I'm very excited about this next one.

Oh, my God. Of course you are all my Jesus. Okay. Well, thank you for doing this in between writing drafts and thanks to everybody for listening. Pause America is a crooked media production.

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