Cold w/ Judith McCreary

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast "Doubt," the case of Lucy Lepby, we unpack

the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? "Out of space, it's the moment you look at the whole picture of the case, Colach."

“What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe, oh my God, I think she might”

be innocent? Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Lepby, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Riley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security,

one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The 6th Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS, and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to the 6th Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Clayton Eckard, and 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelors.

“But here's the thing, Bachelor fans hated him.”

If I could press a button and rewind it all I would, that's when his life took a disturbing turn. One night stand would end in a courtroom. Of the law in order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable. We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies, these episodes

are based on. These are our stories, done, done! Yay, that's messed up in SVU podcast, can you even believe it? My name is Lisa Trigger. Well, I can't believe it, and I'm Kara Clank, and every week it's SVU, recaps, deep

dives into true crime, interviews with guests, today's is a banger. But before that, we just chat, and I'm excited to hear about your weekend. Fun weekend, fun weekend, I mean, obviously the Olympics overshadow everything. I'm so okay, so we interviewed a big guest last week, not going to say who, because obviously we want to leave it.

“But if you came to my live show on Saturday, I think I told AWA, I think I told AWA.”

Oh, yes. So AWA, if you know, but we were all talking to this guest about Alyssa Luz performance, and I hadn't seen it yet, and as soon as I got off, I watched it 12 times, I made my kids watch it, I started following her, like, I am so obsessed with this girl, like, what and it's, I mean, like not just like fuck, she rocks at skating, and I like that she's

like a little bit alternative, but like the story about how she quit skating for two fucking years, and then came back, and everybody was like, bitch, you're not going to do it, and she was like, I actually am going to do it, and I'm going to do it my own way, and no one's going to tell me what to eat, no one's going to tell me when to skate, and then she just fucking won gold, looking like she was having the time of her life.

I had, I have hope for the future. I truly was like, I have hope for the youth, like, I was like, maybe I didn't make a mistake having children in this horrible world. Yeah, it's like tough, it's like, you meet certain young people and you go, oh my God,

like, we are in good hands, this is good, look at the friendship, I always say the youth

helped us wear pants that aren't tight, which is very helpful for our lives, like, they're more like, who had free, how are you feeling, like, we do it for ourselves, and then there's, of course, the Tradwife Reddit pill, people, and that's scary, but yes, it's like fun to see the girlhood, the celebration, her cheering for other people, like her watching other people, they said that was rare.

Like after finishing skating for a skater than watch her competitors, I guess is rare. It's like these little things that are, it makes life so much more fun, like we make little men decide what competition looks like or what athleticism is or like, what needs to go down, they fucked up so many athletes, I mean, I still think about so, so, so ring

abotally, always forever, but like, with all this bullshit, and then to see these girls

be like, now, but also, the rest of them seems like she just wasn't stressed, well that's down by the moment, she didn't give, like, the gold medal didn't have power over her. Yeah, and it's like, you can also give a graceful, amazing performance where you don't look like you're about to, like, vomit from stress or, like, that you're a glass doll

I've ever seen an athlete look like they're having so much fun, like, she just was having

a blast, it was awesome. And then I watched her gala, I made the kids watch other, we watched Amber Glenn, I mean, Amber Glenn's also super talented, but like, I can tell him, she didn't get the message, because even after she posted, she was holding, like, it was practice time, you know, they do the, like, the artsy, fun group thing at the end, what is it called, the gallery,

whatever, the gallery, yeah, but she, she was holding her phone and she's like, here, I'm going to do the jump that I missed and, like, it's so easy, it's not a hard jump, she did it in practice without trying. And I'm like, you're missing the Alyssa here, of it all. Yeah, it's not about that, uh, no, but then Amber, I loved her final performance at

the show. Yes, then she looked like she was having a great time, same with Ilya, like, I, when

“people say, hopefully she changed the sport, I think she did.”

I think you could see it in the showcase, people were having more fun, you could just see it. And it's just cool that she left for two years, did her own thing. And then was like, I think I'm going to come back, and they were like, you can't. No one's ever done that and she was like, watch me.

I just, like, love that. What's kind of like tons of things, like, it's kind of, I think about being on set or like, I've, or like, writers or things, or you hear about people that, like, work all night. We're ordering dinner here 15 hours. Yeah.

We're going into overtime. Yeah. And then we talked to someone and they're like, yeah, we're out by five. We, they know what they want. Yeah, we're home.

We get to have dinner and like the projects are good. It's such an old, it smells like, it's like an old way of thinking that working hard means like working yourself down to the bone, like that's not necessarily, it's like work smarter, not harder, like, I don't know, like it's, you know, the old SNL was like, you have to stay overnight and do cocaine until you know, but, but they did coke.

That's what's different.

“That's what, like, I thought SNL when I said the long hours, because then one of those”

people went and did their own TV show and everyone that worked on that TV show said it was psychotic because he brought the SNL vibe to a thing that didn't need it and some people want to go home. Yeah. Some people don't hate their families, like, some people need to rest and feel good.

And I mean, I think about, um, my one year of playing football, but I think about football practice and like, we weren't allowed to drink water and what, and one athlete asked for water and he got in so much trouble where they made him walk to go get the water and we had to do like push-ups or suicides or something while he went to drink water as punishment for him asking to drink water.

And then people were dying and it's like, what are they doing? Like, what is, it's like, they want to suffer because they can't give birth. Like, I don't, I don't get what it is. Yeah. That like athletes and young kids had to die so then you realize it's okay to have water

and still be a powerful athlete. Yeah. That like psychological torture equals toughness in some way, like that's not really that ain't it. And the women's hockey team was incredible and then, of course, I woke up this morning

as we were recording this to see the men's hockey team being a disappointment, like always.

What happened? Oh, they were on the phone with the president. Oh. Mr. President, and then he goes, God, I got to invite the women's team and then they all laughed.

Are you fucking kidding? Nope. And cash, I had parting with them. As they're drinking coronas. Gross.

That's so funny. That's funny.

“Because even my dad was like, are you going to watch?”

I go, I do not support man. I don't obviously, I watch the celebrations, I love brothers, I love unfortunate, you know, I'm honoring their, like, teammate who passed and, you know, I love joy in the Olympics, but I knew not to get, I knew, I knew not to get too excited. And I was right.

And I was really, yeah.

And the women's team was, so I mean, it was an amazing Olympics.

It was really fun. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Way, did I tell you this whole cycle thing? Tell, okay.

No. So I'm doing this financial podcast and I've got hired, it's get rich, quick schemes. You guys will know more, but I, so I'm like, wait, you're hosting it. Yeah, I'm hosting it. And I'm doing these schemes.

I'm coming up with them. And this finance company is like paying for all of them. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it's like really fun stuff I'm doing, but after a few recording sessions, the people

I'm working with go, you know that you've multiple times. He quaded amounts of money to how many soul cycle classes you can buy. And I go, no, I didn't know that I do that. They said you do it all the time. Oh my god, it's your unit, it's your unit of measurement.

So something was like over, 'cause of time and happened, I go, oh over 500, I'm like, that's like 20 soul cycle classes. And they're like, you can do that hold the time. That's so funny. How much are you getting paid for this gig?

All right, I'll take it.

“I mean, I went in the Blizzard yesterday, but I needed it.”

In 2023, a story gripped the UK of looking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Leppi.

Lucy Leppi has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the full story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast doubt, the case of Lucy Leppi, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it.

To ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Leppi was. No voicing of any skepticism are doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to doubt the case of Lucy Leppi on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful

spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is a special agent, Riegel, a special agent, Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary.

Here how they got it on the 6th bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question of his life. And that's the unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable.

This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS. And how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the 6th bureau on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckard and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan.

He became the first bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected.

The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would.

“What happened to Clayton after the show made even bigger headlines?”

It began as a one night stand and ended in a courtroom with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract.

Agreed to date me, but I'm also so suing you. It's such fun. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.

This season, an epic battle of he said she said, and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. "I am done nothing to get pregnant by the f*** rats lurk." Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. No, my grandmother's show was like, so fun.

Everyone was so fun. Then Sophia, our friend who works at live nation, like she put the show together. And so she decorated my whole green room and he did rivalry pictures. Oh my god. I was surprised.

And then I hired our friend Mindy Tucker to take photos and I recreated all the poses with friends who came to the green room. Everyone's stay tuned for my heated rivalry photos. The green room was so fun. My friends were so fun.

And I wore jeans and everyone was really happy about that. And so I had multiple pictures. Well, there'll be a lot of professional photos. But I've seen you in jeans in a long time. Yeah, I wear pants now and everyone kept been like, you got to wear more pants.

We love the pants situation. And so, and I got these pants for free. They're not. I wouldn't have even bought the pants. And yeah, I wore pants.

Everyone was so funny. The venue was so nice to me. I mean, not to brag, but multiple people at the venue came up to me going,

we always get right winged terrible comedians.

You're the best person we've ever had here. They're like, please come back. And then we look through the, who's been there. And we're like, yeah, I'm sure they're the night of their lives. Like, they just were like, and then on the way out, one of the door guys goes, man.

Fuck Jessica Tish. Because I do a joke about her. And I'm like, that's awesome.

“I think they're just used to kind of the Nazi comics being there.”

So they were just being like, yeah, fuck Jessica Tish. That bitch doesn't know what she's doing. And I was like, this is so funny to be like bonding with all of the employees about other police commissioner, like I just, I'm sort of shocked. I feel like I always think of the grammar scene as like a cool, like,

it's cool, but we know perform, not like the Nazis. I think it's because Jake Cornell was just there.

He came to the show, which was so nice.

But like, I think because of the side, I think it's just trends. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I guess it's because like one of the only shows I've seen there was like, Jared did a show with like peatomes and Chelsea ready. I'd like just people that I don't know.

I love it. As a venue, it's awesome. So an ever in that work there was like so nice checking in. They had all the boo. Like, it was just, it was huge.

And I don't know if we talked about this or not, but I opened for someone there.

“Like a few months ago, which was great because it's nice to get familiar with a new venue before you have to like do it.”

Yeah, especially like if it's like you're too excited or something. Or nervous. And so when I was there, I was introducing the comics. So I was like, oh, do you want me to be like New York's own like born and raised like something with a lot? And he goes whatever nobody cares. It's not like it's Madison Square Garden.

And I was like, okay. And it is just like, what a weird attitude to have in life. And I kind of treated it like it was Madison Square Garden. And I felt like that. Like I just touched on my life.

And we raised money for the food bank. I don't know how much, but that's what I'm going to do now from now on. There's like QR codes. And if you want to meet me, you have to donate to the food bank. And if you were there and you want to, then why see food bank? Where I go?

That's a great idea. I know I felt really cool about myself. That's really cool.

But the line wasn't that long. This always happens to me.

Every time I do a charity event, I should have just given the money. This is humiliating the lack of funds. My sex in the city trivia night, I mean, what I poured into it. And maybe $600 for Puerto Rico. Hey, every dollar helps.

Come on. I know. Thanks. It all. But I got wasted.

I stayed up until 430 in the morning. Allison ended up stealing me a bedazzled ice skate that was hanging in one of the bars. We were the last two standing. And I love New York City. I got to walk home from my venue.

Like to go to the bars. And then pizza on my blocks open till 5 a.m. So I got to like, be healthy for 30 and get a slice of pizza. And then the next morning was like a rough day for sure. I know where to be.

No, I didn't have to be anywhere except soul cycle at five. So it's like, okay.

That's, it's really so impressive that you got up and do soul cycle after you've been like drinking.

Like, I can't, I, five o'clock even. I can't. Like, I can't. Oh, get, wait.

“Did I tell you this that I found out my one of my soul cycle friends is in high school?”

What? So I'm, oh, one of my soul cycle friends came to the show two of them. That was really really sweet. Um, no, so I'm sitting talking to one of the girls that I talk to that's part of, you know, that, that just like loves the same teacher.

And she has a Theragon. And she's built like a ballerina. So like in my head, I'm like, she's Theragoning. She's here. She's like, she, I'm like, what's up with you?

I got you an athlete. What are you doing here? What's with the Theragon? And she goes, well, you know, I'm a lot younger than people think I am. I go, what are you 20?

What's up? She goes, no, I go, what's, how old are you? She goes, I'm in high school. And she like told me where she, I go, you're in high school. I go, you know, I'm probably over 20 years older than you.

And then I told her old, I was, she goes, yeah, you are. And I go, that's crazy. But that's cool. Like, uh, and so I learned one of my friends is in high school. Wow.

That's really, um, that's really crazy considering that you're also on the abstain list. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're in the final. I am in the final. I was going to say one more, well, well, we'll get, but the other girl at five o'clock.

She was also like, I stayed out so 430 in the morning, but she's like 22. It's like, wow. I deserve even more attention for what I'm doing.

“I think I'm probably the older, no, there were smaller people in the last bit.”

Wow. I love it. I love that it's your main thing. But and Jared Goldstein opened for me and he was so funny. And everyone like was laughing. I don't know, it was like so cool.

And then Mindy Tucker's the best. And I'm going to look through all those photos. Oh, yeah, she really fucking rocks. It's a green room vibe was great. And then the after vibe.

Hang was good. Yeah, it was all around. Sounds like a great night. Okay. I haven't seen files.

I wake up one morning a few weeks ago. And I don't want to make light of it because it's like a fucked up thing. But no. And I actually make light of it when your high school friends. It's actually very fucked up and serious.

But I did receive a text from Lisa saying, me and Casey got out. So I sent a group. Yeah. Yeah.

What does the text say? It goes, it was just like, I'm in the files. I'm in the obscene files. We were like, what the fuck? No, it's just a story.

So I wake up and I have a text from my friend to mesh. And he and it's like a photo of an email. And I'm kind of looking at it. I don't understand. I see my name.

I see the lineups. I remember those shows because it's like, I did these David tells shows that the seller before I was even passed there. So these shows are like, they're a milestone in my mind. So I remember the core memory shows.

And so I got what is this? And he was like, it's the Epstein files.

And it was like, what the fuck?

So then I zoom in and then I top it. It's like his fucking email, the G, you know, the J party events or vacations or whatever. And it's him texting a friend being like, birthday drinks in comedy night.

Let's see like Gilbert Godfrey tonight. Something like that. Or I know what it said. It said the real Gilbert Godfrey is here. Because I bet they went to the seller when Godfrey was there. The comic and were confused.

“So they, I think that's what the email was about.”

I don't know who it was to. I don't know if they were at the show. But my name is in the lineup with. Yeah. It's like comedy.

It's like a comedy seller email, right? Like that's like. Yeah, I bet. And so he subscribes to the seller updates and saw the lineup forwarded it to a friend and was like, should we go here for your birthday?

Yeah, kind of files.

There's just like us, you know.

They're running around. Having a better life. You know, there's a lot of, if like if you're searching the obscene files by word, you're going to find people in it that don't have anything to do with anything. But then what freaked me out was like,

so I mentioned it on John Hills radio show. Because it's, it just happened and I was on it. And then on something else I did a woman wrote, she's in the Epstein list. And it's like, Oh, yeah, I forgot.

People are like toast so stupid and they don't follow context at all. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, oh, our people are going to start coming. It's like, I already, I have bad things on the internet.

“You actually don't even have to make up.”

Yeah. You don't have to make stuff up. It's there. But also like the, like, to be like who you are with your point of view, hosting this podcast and then actually like legitimately being in the

files would be so on it. Like for people to be like, no, she's in it. It's like look up one thing about her. But I am going to see Jefferson Maze, our friend. A.K.A.

Rodnick. Dr. Carl Rodnick. In Amadeus at the Pasadena Playhouse. He is in Amadeus. And he's playing cellary.

I've never seen Amadeus. I don't know anything about it. But multiple people have texted me being like, this show is so amazing. And the guy who plays cellary is so good.

And then I'm like, oh my god, this Jefferson Maze. And Jared is a huge fan of him because he listens to him doing audio books. And he loves him. He reads a bunch of Jared's audio books. So we're going in like a week or so to see him in Amadeus.

I'm excited. Oh my god. I might try to email him or something and be like, Get back to your page because we've been to the Pasadena Playhouse screen room. Yes, we saw Kate there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm excited. Oh, and if anyone is wondering the new moon is song, Amazing Missile Cycle 2.

They really, it never ends with Moona.

Yeah, Moona, they're awesome. I can't wait for the new album. Okay. Well, let's get rolling. Let's get to it.

Thank you for indulging me. It was, it was a big weekend. Yeah, no, for sure. And go to go to go to my hair and make up. Like, I didn't even tell her.

I like glitter, the bit's just new. I don't know, because my girl was, um, I was good to say was a Candace. No, Candace knows me so well. She was unavailable.

So she recommended me her friend who was great. Like, I got, I got a lot of glitter on. I was wearing a corset. Maybe she gave her the Lisa cheat sheet. I just had fun.

I don't know. It's just so cool. I'm so glad. I'm glad it was, I mean, I know it was going to be great. Like, it's like a hometown show practically for you and like,

You know, a great venue. Okay. So if you guys want to catch Lisa on the road, go to that's my stuff. I've got a comment. You can go to her website.

I just added for mine. I'm vague. I haven't made the poster. Like, kill me. Vegas.

I'm going to Salt Lake. Like, I'm out. I'm out. Yeah. She's out in about.

Also, we have merchandise store. We have our Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis shirt that is super soft and cute. Um, and is a great conversation starter. So, I'm going to go to her website based on Lisa's inability to say one judge's name.

So go to our store. Check that out. We have also a couple of like other little items that are still up there for sale. Um, and we also have a Patreon now. So go check out our Patreon.

Um, it's patreon.com/that's messed up. And like, honestly, we're going to be doing an episode soon where we cover the PyroBag stock, the, America's next hot model documentary. And that allowed me to edit this weekend. Yeah.

Watching that, juxtaposed with like a list of Lou. I'm like, we're so much better now than we were. I feel like in a lot of ways with like the messaging that we're giving young girls.

“Like, so, if you want to hear us talk about that.”

Um, all right. We really have to start because we can talk about this. And it's a separate podcast about this. It's a good episode. Great guest.

Um, so don't go anywhere. Okay. All right. Today we are doing cold burr.

Um, let's see some toros.

Jake, that's the best fear. What's I forgot? Oh, the sham rocks? No. The clovers.

The clovers. Yeah. The toros are the copy. Um, season nine episode 19. So this bad boy came out in May of 2008.

Damn. Um, uh, we open on the world saddest power point of just dead woman after dead woman and a guy is like reading off details. Um, these are unsolved cases and a room full of like sluts or watching this presentation and like asking questions. And who is in the audience, but maybe my least favorite regular cast member of all time, Chester Lake.

“Do you have a regular that you have just liked more than Chester Lake?”

Hmm. No, even like, no, because all the 88s that we don't like are really quick and then out there. Yeah, like even great.

I'm like, I mean, he was only Chester Lake was only in two episodes of season eight and then all of season nine.

And it's like, even though I hated Gray Lake, I don't think I too was so much less. I mean, really hate Velasco. He's back, baby. Well, he's not back. He's coming back for like probably one or two episodes, but he's no.

Chester Lake is the worst. So it he doesn't fit in. I just, I don't know. I'm trying to think of someone I hated more. I can't.

Yeah. Um, well, he's played by Adam Beach who I thought I had not seen since this episode of the show. Uh, but I guess he was in a bunch of episodes of Big Love, which I did watch and I have no recommend recollection. And also when I go to his IMDB, his most recent credit easy did a voice on a poly pocket TV show. Wow.

And it's like so confusing because to me, his voice is the worst part. Like he has the most monotone voice. I can't imagine what he's like doing like poly pocket. Like, hey, poly.

“Like, I don't know, I just like can't, he's so, like, I don't know.”

Um, yeah, you know.

And they're not like him.

Yeah, not a fan. So he's sitting there with a blonde woman. They're shooting out some questions. And then afterwards, they're walking down the stairs after the meeting. Like, like, hate you get those photos.

I sent you. They're not dick pics. They're crime scene photos. And she's like, babe, there are 82 members who would love to help you. I love to help you present to the group.

And he goes, V doc is swamped. There isn't an open slot for a year. And the V doc society is a real group that started in 1990, giving free expert assistance to law enforcement agencies across the US to solve cold cases.

But we're going to get more into that later in this episode. Yeah, but I, and I'll dive in. Yeah, and Lisa's going to get more into V doc. Um, but we've, we've mentioned it in another episode. But yeah, this is.

But then the woman, what I don't understand is he's like, oh, I would present to the group, but they're busy. Like, they're busy for a year. And then she goes, stopping. So stubborn.

It's like, I don't know if he's being stubborn. He's saying that they're busy. Like, but she's also, she's also putting her hand on his chest. While she talks to him. Like, it's very coded that these two have either

a flirtation or our fucking or have fucked. Um, which I don't ever put a hand on a chest of a colleague. Like, I can't imagine a time I've done it. Um, a shoulder, perhaps. Um, and she says, you know, 10 years is a long time to hang onto a case.

And he goes, I'm asking you, Penn. And her name is Penelope Fielding. She has played by Deirdre Lovejoy, who is a corner copia of Dick Wolf. Like, she's got her Wikipedia entry on the law in order Wiki is like, she's been on all of them.

She was in slaves. She was in secrets. Slaves of season one, secrets of season two. She was in postgraduate psychopath. She plays the doctor who says that Henry Messer has been cured.

Okay, dumb dumb. But this woman Deirdre Lovejoy works a lot. She's got to work a lot. Yeah, she's going to be in Daredevil born again. Probably something that, you know, looks like a CW type of, or maybe not.

I, I assume everything that's like, she was here in the world. Oh, who was she on girl? Oh, she was Becky and Baker's sister. Oh, totally. Um, okay.

So she is like telling him, Well, your victim was dumped. Sort through everything. See what belongs and what doesn't. Which feels like she's explaining detective work to him.

Um, and he has been a detective for a long time. And then he's like, I didn't, if they, if this guy made any mistakes, I didn't find them. And she's like, not yet. And then she goes, you also need to re-interview all the witnesses.

And he goes, there aren't any. And she goes, well, actually there was one. And then we caught to a fancy party where Casey Novak is like, choking down a canopy and like maybe taking a swing of some white wine.

“And she's like, what do you, what are you selling me to the guy that she's talking to?”

And he's trying to sell her on being a criminal defense attorney. And he's like, our clients were accused of SEC violations, not dittling some four-year-old on a playground. And it's like, okay, the way that you can't see that her work is more important is wild. Um, but Casey gets a beep on something.

I kind of want to assume it's a, it's definitely a flip phone.

“But I like to assume that maybe she has a beep or also.”

And she's like, I got a run. And he's like, no more late night calls, no more rate victims and dead kids. How do you sleep at night? And she goes, I don't. And she bounces.

So now with the crime scene. Novak is standing with Daddy Crayon as, uh, Benson, Stabler, Finn, and Munch approach. There's tons of men there. In their full fancy, like, high up NYPD drag.

You know what I mean? Like, everybody's in there like, little hat. And like, they're like, if you're high up at one p.p. Are you walking around at night with, like, your full, like, navy outfit on?

And not, you know what I'm saying? Like, all the, all the pins and, like, all the, little lapel things that they wear.

Like, when, when, four times in the whole series,

we've seen, um, Mariska dress up like that, or Benson, you know? But these guys are all just standing around. And they're coming, they're coming and going.

“And Stabler goes, well, I heard it was a cop shooting.”

Isn't everybody using their cell phones? Why is the press here? And Crayon says, well, they've followed the line of brass straight out of one p.p. So I guess, like, the press just stands outside of one p.p.

And when the cops all goes somewhere, they follow. Um, one dead cop, one wounded, Crayon fought for his squad to be there. They're kind of like, why are we here? And Crayon's like, 'cause I fought for it.

Um, the victim is precinct detective Edward Craylick, which is sort of funny because Kim Graylick starts next season, but whatever. Next episode. Uh, this is by the way, this season finale episode, um, of season nine.

So, uh, there's one suspect, but Casey's like, you are not allowed to question him, and nothing gets searched without a warrant, and you keep me on speed dial. Because the suspect is done,

done detective Chesterlick. So, I was reading some of the online chat about this episode, and it's funny when, like, you're a person that was watching this in real time, because you saw kind of what was going on in the commercials, and you would also heard stuff.

So, like, at this point, people knew spoiler that no vac and lake were leaving the show. So, they all are kind of like, okay, we got to wrap up these two people on this in this episode. So, everybody looks over, and they see lake being loaded into an ambulance,

and we're at the credits. So, it's somehow morning now. It was just pitch black night. Casey was just at a party, so we would have to assume eight, nine PM. It's in full morning now, Sun is high in the sky.

Melinda's on the scene, she goes, I see this circus is in town. Then she turns the dead guy over, who I have to assume has just been lying face down in the grass for 12 hours. Like, I don't understand what has been happening. And they're doing this weird thing.

I don't know if you clocked this in this episode where we're seeing the POV of looking through a camera, and then we're seeing, we're hearing, and seeing black and white photos being taken of the crime scene. They do it a couple times right here and then nowhere else.

Yeah, it seems like a weird thing that a director of the episode was like, I got a cool idea for like a, it's like,

I don't understand why they're never like, we don't do that.

We have a style guide for the show, and it's not showing re-enactments. It's not doing like a little like forensic files thing. We just don't do that, you know? But you, um, you hate re-enactments.

I don't hate re-enactments. I think they have to be done well. They can be done, they're really done badly a lot of the time. Okay. But I, I thought the ones in like Nancy's move show about apartment 603 were good.

Well, yeah, and I like the way she talks about, yeah, that, I mean, yes, incredible. Yeah, I just think they've got to be, they should be done tastefully, or they take me out of it. Anyway, um, a re-enactment on this view just like,

it doesn't happen. It's weird to just like throw in in like season eight or whatever. But um, in this, they're doing these weird things, and you're seeing these black white photos. Melinda goes, I got five GSW's gunshot wounds.

He's officially dead. Can I take him? It's like, yeah, he's been cooking out here for 12 hours. She should probably take him. But um, on one of these little photo shots,

stabiler spots, some of the brass straight up like stepping in blood evidence. And he's like, don't move. And the guy goes, who do you think you're talking to? And he's like, you're stepping in my blood evidence. And the guy's like, um, like, yeah,

one of the guys that's a fancy dressed up in the brass outfit, right? So Benson goes over to talk to CSU captain Judith Cypher, aka friend of the podcast care and browning. And she's like, we're almost done freezing the crime scene in time. It's a camera called Scan Station 2,

which scans the entire crime scene so that you don't have to recreate a crime scene. You've got the whole thing right there. It shows you where all the shooters were standing. And the more modern iteration of this is called CSI 360.

“Like, that's what people are doing that now.”

Hmm? I said cool. Yeah. Yeah. And she can tell you exactly where all the bullets you know.

Because you know, sometimes SVU has some weird machines.

You know, sometimes there's a technology in your, like,

“well, no fucking way are you doing the sound waves of their footsteps.”

But this one is exciting. It's real. All of the enhancements even. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Clean that up a little bit is bullshit, right? Yeah.

So, so this is like kind of exciting. Yes. And we're going to find out later where this whole idea came for for this. In 2023, a story gripped the UK of looking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history.

Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Leppi. Lucy Leppi has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the full story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses.

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast doubt, the case of Lucy Leppi,

“we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it.”

To ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Leppi was. No voicing of any skepticism are doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Leppi, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world.

But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the US government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Here how they got it on the 6th Bureau podcast.

I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question of his life. And that's the unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS,

“and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets.”

Listen to the 6th Bureau on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Neckard, and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan.

He became the first bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected.

The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it all I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show? Made even bigger headlines. It began as a one-night stand, and ended in a courtroom with Clayton

at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agreed to date me, but I'm also suing you. Please search for it.

This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. This season, an epic battle of He said she said, "And the search for accountability in a sea of lies." "I'm done nothing to get pregnant by the **** Brassler."

Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, who shot first they need to know? Because they can tell the trajectory of all the bullets. Like this is where this bullet came from.

This is where this bullet came from. But you can't tell who shot first. Only Lake would know that. And they can't question him.

But, you know, Staibler's always looking to bend the rules.

He's like we can go check on him as friends. See, I was doing, you know, bring him a little edible arrangement. So, the thing is SV is not going to do is follow the rules. Yeah. Yeah. So, in the hospital, Lake has been shot through and through,

which I've learned from the pit is where, you know, it goes all the way through. In his arm and his leg, but he'll live. He's talking to them. And he doesn't want to talk to them. He's like, "I'm not talking to you guys." And Benson's like, "It doesn't look good, man. You've got to give us your statement."

And he's like, "No, I don't." And they can't question him for 48 hours. He's invoking Section 1809, which is, which basically came about because of police corruption. And no superior investigating officer can talk to him for two days.

It's called to coerced testimony. So, it's probably for the best, but when I first watched this episode, I've watched it through twice recently. I was like, "Wait, what's this random rule that you can't talk to him for 48 hours and then I actually looked up the Section of the law?" So, Stabler goes, "You go down this road. There's no coming back."

And he's like, "What is this about?" And Lake is just holding strong. He's quiet, so they leave.

Why not just say so?

“We're getting some history on Cray Lake, the victim.”

He came up through the ranks, not spectacular, but solid on patrol, promoted to detective, works out of the one-four. When this is say Lake and Cray Lake, we're going out at at outside of that precinct. And they came up through the same house in Brooklyn. So, there's no like, on record beefs between them,

but Crayagan's like dig deeper. So, Munch and Finn come in and they have found a ticket stub to Philly. It like, "Supportment," and then he dumped his phones. And he goes to Philly at the same time every month. Finn has no idea why he'd be in Philly,

and Benson and Stabler are buying. They're like, "You're his partner." And he goes, "You know everything about Olivia?" And he goes, "I noticed if she disappeared once a month." And it's like, "Does she seriously not take a weekend?"

She doesn't do anything on off time. Like, I don't know. Finn walks away. He's like, "I'm not here for this shit." At the hospital, Finn is waiting for Lake when he comes out of the bathroom. And Lake's like, "You shouldn't be here in Phins."

Like, "Well, neither should you, but here we are." "I'm all yours." And Lake is like, "Clamming up, I'm not telling you anything." Finn goes, "The guy, I know what only shoot in self defense." And Lake's like, "You don't even know me, Finn."

And you never made any effort to until now.

And it's like, "You guys don't only work together for like one season." Like, give him some time. Finn's like, "All you had to do is pick up the phone. I would have backed your play." And Lake's like, "I had it covered."

And then he asked him about Philly and Lake goes great cheese steaks. It's like, "He can't even make a joke in a way that I like." Even when he says the thing about the cheese steaks, I'm like, "You're being annoying." Like, I don't know.

He just, you know, he's the reason. It's his last episode. I'm sure. I'm sure that they were hearing. They were getting focused testing.

And there was a lot of people like me in there. But Finn's like, "Dude, we're trying to save your ass. We're running blind. Why won't you help us help you?" And Lake is, "Mom, not talking."

So Melinda is now, "We're at Melinda's house." She's ruling acrylics death by five gunshot wounds, a homicide. Shock of shocks.

One bullet hit the heart, the second the spine.

Either of those could have killed him. And then there were non-fatal shots that came from behind. Upper right thigh, right butt cheek, and upper back. Possibly the guy was running. And then those shots took him down.

And then whoever came over, shot him like, with shots to the chest and the spine. It feels like the trajectory thing that you did would have proven whether that happened or not. Anyway, Melinda is like, "Yeah, all your theories are plausible,

but we don't know what does Lake say." And Jack shit. So all five shots came from Lake's Glock. They said, "Bolistics has said." And Sabler's like, "Maybe we should all start accepting

that this guy we barely liked killed another cop." Right? Maybe we need to just come to grips. So at the precinct, Finn is showing the gang. This cold case file he found in Lake's desk.

It's from 10 years ago in Brooklyn.

There's recent notes about re-interviewing the first responders,

and Ed Kraylick was one of them. And in walks, Penelopey Fielding, looking for munch. She explains how she and Lake know each other from the Vdox Society, and she explains like, "What it is." And Finn's like, "Why would a cop work cases

that aren't even his and his spare time?" And she's like, "Freedom. We work without politics or bosses." And speaking of bosses, Daddy Kraylick comes out and is like, "Bence and stable are my office now."

In the office, Kraylick is laying into them being like, "I specifically told you not to question Lake and stable are like, "Don't sweat it. Tilt seat and say anything." And she's like, "Well, good thing."

Because it would have been inadmissible. And stable are like, "How do you think we solve this crime when we can't talk to him for 48 hours?" And that's when most crimes are solved. And I love that, also, in regards to

what we talk about later in the episode. I'll just say that. Love X says that's not her problem. Follow orders or stay out of the way. And no X storms out.

And Kraylick, listen, Lake Kildakop and what appears to be an unprovoked shooting.

“And Benson is like, "I think we should wait for the evidence.”

What's the rush?" And he goes, "If it were anywhere one else he'd already be in shackles to just do your job. I don't get it. Who's rushing anything?

Like, who's rushing?" They're saying you can't talk to him. And Benson's like, "Cool, let's just wait it out." Kraylick is like, "Do your job." Like, "Okay, I don't get it.

It seems like there's some editing that happened here that doesn't make sense." Anyway, at the hospital, Benson is stable to show up to what? Not talk to Lake again.

I don't understand it. It has not been 24 to eight hours yet. I don't know why they're back there. And when they get there, he's gone. Stavers like, he's running.

He's running. He's running. Like, I didn't watch it. Yeah. He's like, "What?"

Benson says, "Well, the IV's pretty full. So he can't be gone long. I'll get hospital security down with the search. Stabilar goes." And I'll get them to dump Finn's phone.

Why?

“Immediately, we're just turning our backs on our fellow squad, right?”

Benson's like, "You think he tipped off Lake that we were on our way?"

To what end?

What are they on their way to do that would make Lake run?"

He cannot speak to them. They cannot speak to him. Like, "What is the deal?" So Stabilar really thinks that Finn gave Lake the heads up that they were coming.

“And that's why he's like, "We're going to dump Finn's phone.”

Let's not ask him. Let's just dump his phone." So that's the end of act two. I mean, sorry, act one. Act two.

Benson's similar in Daddy Craig and are in a walk and talk about how they search the whole hospital. They've got Lake's house under watch, but they didn't get him. He's in the wind. Finn approaches. And he goes, "Dump of my phones was a bitch move, Stabilar.

And he goes, "Yeah, I called him, but I didn't think he'd run." And Stabilar's like, "Well, you should have stayed out of it." And Finn's like, "He's my partner." Like, Stabilar, "What world would you not have called a living?" Absolutely.

But they just, "Yeah."

You would have showed up with your car and worked out a thing and said, "Get in.

I'm driving you into the mountains." It was like, "You don't have done it." So I guess no loyalty towards Finn at all. Like, damn. Well, I'm trying to remember the episode where Stabilar and Finn really hate each other.

And I only remember it's the one where Kathleen stole the credit card. Yes, yeah. What season is that? Oh, it's season 10. So it's the next season.

Oh, wow. Okay.

“So this is like setting up tension between, I think, Finn and Stabilar.”

Like, that there is tension between them. This episode is like really setting it up. Because when you watch a little bit out of order, like we do, it's kind of like, "When did that happen?" I guess that's the beginning.

And we caught it. Yeah. So, and Finn is, oh, wait. I mean, Finn starts out there. So the series, as a Republican, he changes a lot.

I don't think he likes a lot of them at the beginning. You know? And Finn also gives you the vibe of like work and home separate. Yeah. They don't need to know my full personality.

They don't need to know what I'm doing. I have my life. And I don't give a fuck. Because I feel like leader when they introduce his son. Everyone's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa."

Like, I feel like no one even knows. So, yeah. Yeah. And then also, the idea that he's just like, "Who would do the V-Doc society?"

Like, in what world is that?

“Am I not smoking weed and playing video games in my free time?”

Why would I be solving cold cases for fuck that? So anyway, Craig is like both of you shut the fuck up because they're arguing. And he says, "Lake isn't even our problem anymore. The fugitive apprehension team, which they abbreviate as FAT.

And they keep calling it FAT the whole time as if you wouldn't just call it fat. Fat will take it from here. And Finn's like, "Oh, those dudes just work out and shoot guns. They're going to kill like." And they're like, "That's not how fat works."

And it's like, "What is that?

We've never heard of the fugitive apprehension team before."

And I don't think we hear about it ever again. I think it gets fully, we've had fugitives escape before on this show. I don't remember they're ever being besides ESU. You know, there's like the guys that come with the battering rams, but like, I've never heard of this FAT team before,

but here they are all over this episode. So, Craig looks got a lot of friends on the street who want to see like dead. At least let me look for him, Finn wants to know. And Stable is being super cool as usual, and he's like, "Where are you going to start?

You don't even know the guy." And Finn's like, "I know we didn't do it." And Stable is like, "But there's three bullet holes in this guy Craig looks back that beg to differ." And he's like, "Do you ever think that the force behind the first two bullets

may be spun?" Craig like around. We're trained to keep shooting until the subject is down. Because like those three non-fatal shots could have been just to drop him. You know?

You're assuming that the fatal shots came first, Benson points out. And Craig and says to have ballistics check out which scenario fits. Craig and asks if they checked out feeling Penelope, who's still hanging around. And Benson's like, "No, she's legit.

She lists all her accomplishments. She's like run a lab. She's been a detective." She's done it all. And Craig and's like, "Well, I want to get her statement

and then kick her ass to the curb." And Benson's like, "Yeah, but like, the connection between Lake and Craig is a cold case. Maybe she can help us." Craig and's like, "I know all about the V-ducks society."

And so does the brass, and we're passing. We're hard passing on them. We don't want that. So, you know, because most of the people that move up in the NYPD are people that just won't glory and they don't want any secret society

coming and taking their, you know, their win. Benson points out, "Well, Lake held onto this case for 10 years. He must have talked to her about it this woman." So, Finn is updating the gang and Penelope on the whole case. 14-year-old Alyssa Hernandez was found raped and strangled in a vacant lot

10 years ago. She was last seen leaving school with her bestie Cecilia cruise. When they questioned Cecilia, she said that they split up. They usually walk home together, but this day they split up and she didn't see anything. Penelope goes, "She was lying.

Her statement is full of elliptical pauses which indicate invention." I like that sentence. I like that idea. What's in elliptical pauses? And then you know what that is?

It's just pauses.

But if it's one dot. Like I would say, it's not like going, "Oh, and then me and Lisa went to Crispy Cream." You know, it's going.

“And then we went, you know, I think it's like just taking a little bit longer”

and like you're truly trying to think of what your next thing is that you're going to say. Yeah. So, I think that's the elliptical pauses, which I mean, there must be tons of bullshit that you study and like to weed out lying. But the victim was undocumented.

Lisa Hernandez was undocumented. She was in the country legally according to Benson. And they think that maybe Cecilia, her friend was in the same boat. And that could have caused her to lie or not want to get involved or whatever. Also, Craylic, they noticed responded to this call even though it was outside his

sector. So, the killer, you also used a condom and tried to wipe the body down. And Benson was like, "Yeah, but a lot of them do that." And Penelope goes, "Yeah, but they didn't ten years ago." DNA was a new thing.

Most killers were not, I mean, let's remember Richard Ramirez was like jerking off and barfing in the middle of a room after he killed someone. Like, so people were not doing that. But a cop would have forensic knowledge, like they would know to do that. So, Craylic got a call from a pay phone to his cell phone.

30 minutes before the shooting.

“But would Lake have, why would Lake have met him in such an isolated spot?”

Maybe if he thought this was his chance to get the truth. So, Munch says, "Let's run a Lisa's rape kit." So, they're in this massive rape kit warehouse. And Munch is like talking to the guy, the officer that's working it goes. I thought you guys got federal funding to get these rape kits into Codas.

And the cop working in there goes, "It was 12 million bucks.

We had 20,000 kits. You do the math." So, the math is $600 per kit. Is that not enough to enter them into Codas? I mean, I'm sure that honestly, just the way hospitals charge for everything, or labs charge for everything, it would be a lot to process a rape kit.

But $600 per kit's not like nothing, you know? And so, I'm sure somebody works in a lab that listens to our show that's going to say, "Actually, it costs like $2000 to process each kit and then enter it." But still feels like you could have gotten a lot done with 12 million bucks. So, he finds a Lisa's kit and they can immediately tell that it's been damaged.

And the guy explains, "Yeah, there was a flood and have it in storage." And he goes, "I already told all of this to the two other dicks." And one dick is Lake. And he wanted the specimen fast tracked, but you can't do that without command approval. And the other dick is Craylic.

So, Munch says, "Craygin wants it rushed. I'm going to take it in myself." So, now we're at a diner and finish meeting up with Penelope. And she's like, "I'm getting the cold shoulder in your squad room." And she goes, "If you can get me the 3D scans, I can figure out the most realistic scenario for what happened in that lot." And it feels like, "We can also do that."

And Penelope is like, "Yeah, but how long is it going to take? What about all the other pressing cases you guys have?" Like, "I can work on this alone." And it's like, "Does she not have a job? I'm confused if she's retired. She seems quite young." And it's like, "Sorry, I can't help you. I'm not like turning over evidence." It's also like, that would blow the case, right?

“Like, I think that would blow the case to give it to somebody outside of the proper channels, right?”

She says, "Proving Craylic is a rapist isn't going to be enough to clear a chester. She knows that he didn't shoot first."

And she's like, "If you heard anything, it feels like no word from him." But he's shot twice and he's hobbling around Manhattan and Penelope is like, "But he's resourceful." She wants to bang him really badly if she hasn't already. She observes that Finn seems pretty angry and he's like, "Yeah, well, I don't really know my partner." And Penelope is like, "You think he didn't trust you, but he was really just trying to earn your respect."

And she goes, "He said you were a hard person to know." And you know, Finn's like, "Like he's much better." And then she goes, "You know, you could try his ex-partner, Wesley Meadows. They kept in touch." So now we're catching up with Wesley Meadows at a hot dog cart, classic. And he is played by Robert Toronto, another Dick Wolf Bingo card, this guy, multiple apps of SVU, original recipe, criminal intent, and even OC.

He's actually in the shadow work episode that we just referenced kind of recently. So this guy's been in a ton of episodes. He says, "I haven't heard from Lake in like six months, but whenever we talk, it's the same combo." It's at least a Hernandez. This was his first case and it haunted him.

And Meadows thinks that Cecilia was lying through her teeth. He's like, "Yeah, like we always kind of knew."

And we thought that she was a victim as well. We saw some bruises, she couldn't look us in the eye, she couldn't stand to be touched, my gut was screaming. But he said, "I don't know what else to tell you. It was ten years ago. All I remember was hitting a wall. Most people in the neighborhood were undocumented. Nobody would talk." The Hernandez family isn't really around anymore, but I did hear that they got amnesty, so you might be able to track them down.

He's drinking like a massive can of just as cola on the side.

And he just keeps taking sips and it's making me laugh. Okay, so in the next scene, they're talking to Elisa's father at a fruit packing plant. And he's like, "Yeah, she got murdered in a country that I told my family was safe."

“And they all went back to El Salvador, but I couldn't leave because I think someone should stay with Elisa and visit her grave.”

It's like really heartbreaking. He's like, "I moved my family here for a better future. My daughter was murdered." And they tell him, "We think Cecilia saw something and he's like, "No way she would have told me." And they're like, "Dude, she was 14 years old. She was probably scared. She would get in trouble." And we think she was sexually assaulted as well. And he goes, "Oh, yeah. Well, late called me last night trying to get in touch with Cecilia." I told him she works as a seamstress downtown.

Here we go. We're at this clothing place. The head seamstress is like, "What's with all the cops? Three of you in two days." And she's like, "Yeah, I was annoyed when Cecilia said she had to go, but the cop explained it was about a rape." We're on a deadline. And then they flash a picture of Chester and she goes, "Yup, that's him. The dude was bleeding all over the floor. Cecilia had to take him out to go to the hospital and it was around 1am." So now Benson and Stabler are concerned with why his leg involving a civilian in his whole jailbreak situation.

And now she's his hostage technically. So then fade to commercial. When we come back, Craig and Benson and Stabler again are walking and talking. They still have no clue where Lake is. So when they walk into the precinct, Finn's like, "Oh, so now the news is reporting that Lake has a hostage who gave him that."

And then everybody starts shitting on Lake for a little while about being a dumbass and taking her in the first place and like no one understands it.

“But Finn's like, "I still think he must have had a good reason." Right?”

Q, CSU detective Rhino Haller and letting us know that done done. There was a third shooter in that parking lot. I don't understand why they didn't immediately know that from the old 360 machine. Like if you could tell we're all these shots or from. So apparently, 31 shots were fired. All the same brand of ammo, all NYPD issued, 10 from Lake's gun, 15 from Kraylix. The other six came from another source. Damn, big shooting.

So, but this is like, what's not, this is what's confusing to be two is like, they said ballistic said that all five shots to Kraylix came from Chester's gun. I know. But whatever. So we're looking at the 360 footage and we can see the other bullets didn't land. Maybe they're just scattered and well, in other words. Chester shot 10, Chester shot 10, five hit the guy, five are scattered.

They find the shell case things. So they're looking at the footage and they can see exactly where and how Lake was standing when he fired. It seems like he shot at Kraylix and he spun around exactly what Finn suggested. But he was already falling from someone else's bullets. And that was when he got hit with the heart and the spine shot. But again, they said that those, Kate, that he was only hit with Chester's bullets, so I don't understand.

And then Lake started firing some shots into a void located like over here. They point out on the thing.

“And they're like, were there any shell caseings in the void area?”

No, the guy policed his brass. You have so many like phrases in the NYPD. Policing your brass is picking up your own shell casing, so you don't get in trouble for shooting people, I guess. The mystery shooter fired six shots at Lake, two got him, and the other four were found at the scene. Then it says that gun was not in the system.

How would they know what the gun was? They didn't find the gun. And so they go, if it's a cop, I'm thinking it's a drop gun Finn says. And a drop gun, as we can deduce, is an illicit backup weapon carried by someone typically a police officer who has a primary weapon that the listics could easily match up to. And hence the illegal gun in the case. So I guess that's maybe how they found the gun.

They check the striations on the bullets that hit Lake, and they did not find that gun in the system. They could not find those. I didn't realize that these striations were like fingerprints and that they would match to a specific gun. I thought they would go to like a type of gun, but maybe I'm incorrect.

So it's basically an illegal gun in case they have to make someone dead without being found out.

So maybe Lake took Cecilia Cruz to protect her. They're saying if this is another dirty cop, it could be someone who was close to Krelik ten years ago. Let's talk to Krelik's widow and see who all his besties are. So Benson in St. Blores show up at Casa Krelik and immediately an angry cop is like, what are you doing here? And the wife Mary Krelik is like, let them in.

And she'll truly familiar to me. And it's because her name is Eva Kaminski and she's in the episode decaying morality. Uh-huh. She plays the mom Jamie McChains' wife.

Yes. Yes. What's the girl's name, Portia? Or Haley Lewis Richardson. Yeah, Haley Lewis Richardson.

So she plays Haley Lewis Richardson's mom in that episode.

“So and she's been in other Dick Wolf, I think.”

But so the dick guy at the door is named Bill Jensen. He introduces the other two cops as like Tom Crane and some other guy that we don't really care about that much. Uh, and they're in the living room too. And Tom Crane is there and he's with FAT, okay? And the the fugitive apprehension team.

And this the cops start arguing about Lake and they're like, maybe he'll bleed out and like maybe he'll die while he's on the run and Mary's like shut the fuck up. I don't want him dead. I want to understand why he killed my husband and Benson's like, we're working on that, man. And she asks, is there anyone who Krelik is close to and she gets real quiet because it's all these losers that are standing in the room right now. It's like, you know, are the loser friends in the room with us, yes, they are.

The three cops are like, are you looking at us? You looking at justify murder? Get out of here. So like they immediately overreact and they're like, definitely nothing to hide with these three sweet hearts. You know, so Benson says, when they're outside, she goes, it's going to kill this woman when she finds out who her husband really was.

And stable or still pissed at Lake, like, why did he just tell us who this third shooter is?

And Benson's like, we can't be sure he saw him. He was standing in a dark void. It was dark outside. There were bullets flying everywhere. And then Benson's is stable.

Like, what's your problem? And he's like, but hurt that Lake did it trust them. And it's like, and she's like, well, then so we should have looked at Lake, not Finn. And she's like, you bringing up, like, she brings up, like, you going behind Finn's back with the phone dump. You know, he's a straight, straight shooter.

Like, you could have just asked him, you got to make this right.

“But it's also like, the way that Benson is subtly being like, oh, you think that the other cops in our squad don't trust us?”

Or trust you? I wonder why. You're dumping their phones on a moment's notice. Like, you don't, you're, like, a hot head, you know? Yeah.

So back inside the 16th, Finn says nothing's popping on Jensen Crane or Foster, but he's waiting for their jackets. They've all known Kraylick for a long time. Okay? Meanwhile, Munch gets a call from the lab, the DNA under Alisa's fingernails matches Kraylick's.

And there was a second Seaman sample found, but it was too degraded.

It was only a partial profile. And Finn's like, Finn goes this guy, the quad god, he's going to skate. And Munch is like, well, we can still get him on attempted murder of a cop and Finn's like, it's, that's a parole thing. Like, I mean, it's like not good enough for Finn. He's like, I want this guy in jail for a life.

And Kraylick walks in with the news. Done, done. ESU has lake trapped in an abandoned building. Okay. So we zoom up to the scene and a cop is confirming that lake is armed.

The ESU guy. Tester, you're acting crazy. Crazy. An abandoned building.

“Like, and why are they still trying to have his bat?”

Like, I even those stables pissing me off. It's like fuck, Chester. Finn, you don't even like him. Like, it's all weird. Cops are weird.

It's so culty. Yeah. Yeah. It's red head. I know him.

And it's like, he comes to you once a month and you guys fuck after your little meetings. And then you sit with all your little forensic papers. Yeah. I don't know.

Also, not for nothing, but like, if this girl was murdered, why was SVU not on it? I think Chester came from homicide or something. Like, I don't think he came from SVU.

So it's weird that he's, we always have to be like,

it's the one case that haunted him because it was his first one. Like, I don't even know why he was on it. So they zoom up to the scene and there's an ESU cop outside that's like running everything. And he's confirming that lake is armed.

They're like, how'd you find him? And he goes a cashier. Notice Cecilia buying too many medical supplies and called it in. Like, there was a blowout on her. It wasn't like, wow, you're buying too much gauze, lady.

Like, she recognized her like, this is weird. And then FAT pinpointed the location so much fat talk. While they're talking to this guy, Finn just starts strolling into the building. And the ESU guy's like, what the fuck?

And lives like, you don't get it. That's his partner. And the guy goes, I don't give a fuck of it. It's his long lost brother. And then Vincent's like, you want this take down to go blood free.

You let him work. Okay. That's all you got to say to an ESU guy. Inside Lake comes upon Finn from behind. And he goes, you're not going to shoot me in the back.

And he goes, yeah, only because I'm low on ammo. And Cecilia's there too. And Finn's like, come on, hand over the gun and let's go. And Lake's like, yeah, you excited for the perp walk. And he goes, well, someone's got to take credit.

It might as well be me. It's so confusing all the relationships with each other right now. And I guess this is supposed to be banter among friends. But like, the problem here for me is like, I just don't see a fucking microscopic shred of chemistry between these two.

Like, I have a better rapport with my dry cleaner than these two do. So it's like, I can't like get invested in this like partnership

You know, because I'm like, oh, I don't. Imagine this was like, I don't know, Finn and Munch. Like, that would be insane.

You'd be like, you would never not tell him.

You would never, you know, like, I just am not that invested with these two. So anyway, Lake knows that ESU is getting into position because he can hear on Finn's walkie. And Finn's like, yeah, and the flashbangs are next. Like, you know how this goes.

And Lake's like, what? No negotiation. And he's like dog, she brought you, she brought you bandages. That makes her an accomplice to the felony skip. And Lake's not going to let him take him in.

And Finn's like, dude, we know what's up. We followed your breadcrumbs. We know Krillick is a rapist. Who was the third shooter? And Lake's like, I didn't get a good look.

It was dark. There were bullets everywhere. And then he goes, how'd you get Lord?

And he goes, I got a call from a guy named Bill Jensen.

He said he had information. And when I showed up, they just opened fire. Cecilia says, do we believe him? But I believe him too. But it's like, you guys couldn't meet at like a diner in a different part of town.

Where are you meeting in an empty parking lot? It's like really stupid when you kind of suspect already that it could be these guys. Like was like already there. He already thought about that it might have been them or no. Maybe Lake just wanted to re-interview them.

He didn't even realize it was going to be all that that they were going to be implicated until they started shooting at him and then he realized. Yeah, right? Okay.

“So Cecilia goes, I don't know his name, but I'll never forget his face.”

And I'll testify. I'll tell whoever will listen. So back at the house, much is telling Craig in that the back of the day,

Craig looks shadow during his academy days was Thomas Crane,

who has a record for excessive force, sexual abuse and intimidation complaints. My question and your question is there question. How was this guy still a fucking cop? All of his victims had records and they all recanted. CCRB cleared him and he's currently on you guessed it fat.

Okay. He's on the fucking what is it felony apprehension team. So it's so that Crane is the guy who was there at the woman's house being like at the wife's house being like, we're going to get this guy. Like I work with this team.

We're going to bring him in. So we cut to this guy Crane on a rooftop. He's got his eyes on Lake through the window. We can see the POV through like this the site. He has like, he almost has a shot on Lake and he's holding a sniper rifle,

just waiting to take the shot and just in the nick of time. Sabler puts his gun up to the guy's temple and goes squeeze that trigger and you'll be dead before the slug leaves the pipe. And then the guy puts his hand up. Benson's right there.

She coughs him and we got him. Now we are fast forwarding. This guy does not get to go to cement room bars. He does not pass go. He does not collect $200.

He's in court. And Cecilia's on the stand and she and Elise says she says we're walking on from school. She says they got caught in the middle of a fight and that the two cops came to break it up. And it's no bad questioning her on the stand right now. And the two cops said they'd give us a ride home.

So we got in the back seat. They took turns raping us. She said and she says it felt like it went on forever. And what happened with Elisea? Well, she fought back.

She was scratching and clawing. He punched her but she wouldn't stop screaming and then he put his hands around her throat and squeezed. And then she.

“But I think it's acrylic that does that.”

It's acrylic that does that. And then they asked her to identify one of any of the men that are there. And she identifies Thomas Green sitting behind the defense table. And she goes they're like, why didn't they kill you too? And she's like, well, I begged for my life.

I promised not to tell. And he was really pissed that officer acrylic had lost his control. And had murdered. I mean, I think their plan was just to do whatever they wanted with them and then let them go. But Craig, like, you know, lost his cool killed Alisa.

So then when the two stop cops started arguing, she booked it. She got away. I find it hard to believe that she would live for 10 years out in the open and able to be found where with these guys not somehow finding her and getting rid of her. But I knew that she was scared.

Yeah. Maybe. Yeah. And Crane's lawyer is, oh fuck, it's Viola Davis. Okay.

We don't we hate to see it because she's good. She's defense attorney Donna Emmett.

“And she immediately asks Cecilia, when did you become a citizen?”

And Casey objects, but Viola Davis is like, well, it's goes to witness veracity. And fucking Petroski goes for it, which I don't understand why that. Like if you're here illegally in this country, then are we supposed to trust you as a witness? Like, which is bullshit.

Like, veracity is like the truth of something. So I'm assuming it's just like, how can you trust someone to tell the truth when they haven't gone through the proper channels to become a citizen of our great nation? Which, I mean, if we can fast forward to today, we know that it's really not that fucking cotton dry in any way. And she says Cecilia goes, we didn't have the money for amnesty back then,

And she goes, so you're here illegally.

You went to school here. You saw doctors here. You made money. But you did not pay taxes, which we know now is not true. It's weird that the show.

Like yes, she has a child teenager to not pay taxes, but her parents very well could have been paying taxes. You know, undocumented people did people pay taxes. And so she then pulls out the big guns.

“Oh, so is the DA's office helping you with your immigration status and exchange for your testimony?”

Casey Objects, but Donald withdraws, classic bitch move that these lawyers all do to each other. Casey looks stunned, but like, bitch, you didn't know she was going to pull that card. Like this is weird for me on the Casey level.

Like Casey should be thinking through steps ahead.

You didn't know she was going to bring up status. Yeah. She was obviously going to do that. So now somehow Casey and Melinda are having a chat about immigration. Yeah, it's the thing of like, yeah, this 14 year old gets raped.

And she's so scared because like her immigration status is what capture from coming forward. Yeah. Like why would that be the thing of her not like? It's like the whole damn system is wrong, you know? And it's also like the NYPD cannot like guarantee your citizenship.

You know, like they can they can help you file stuff where like if you're the victim of a crime, you're allowed to stay for certain amounts of time or whatever. But like they don't like hand you a green card and exchange for testimony. Like that's not how it works. So but whatever as long as you get the jury to believe that she could have ulterior motives,

that's all the reasonable out they might need. But so now somehow Casey and Melinda are having a chat about immigration in the morgue. I don't it's it I'm taking it back a little bit. Casey is like, I'm really shocked that people are like looking at this victim like a criminal. And Melinda is like, well, people feel really strongly about immigration on both sides.

I don't really want to hear this the term on both sides come out of Melinda's mouth to be honest. But here we are. And then no vax like your forensic testimony has to be solid. Is the partial profile enough to say he's a match.

“She goes yes, but it leaves you open to her bottle and she goes, what do you mean?”

She was because the partial was significantly degraded. And Casey's like, well, I need a probability of a match DNA. Like a DNA matched crane and Melinda's like, I can't give you that with what I have. And Casey's like, okay, well, then he walks and Melinda's like, Sweetie, I know what you want me to say, but the science does not support it.

And Casey's like when the defense get these gets these labs. They may have enough for reasonable doubt. Can you live with that? And Melinda says, if I have to because I'm sure is how not going to risk my reputation for a verdict that we didn't earn. Yeah.

She's so good. And the thing is the thing that I don't understand is like. If it's a nine point match, there is probability there, right? If you normally get a 13 point match and it's a nine point match, what is the probability of getting a nine point match? How many other people in New York City might have that same DNA?

And no Ed Kray Lake whose DNA has been found, you know? Like, how many people? Like, that's the probability they should be working with. I don't really understand why they're like, we can't do it. But cuts a Melinda on the stand with her screen and a clicker showing a 13 low side match for the skin underneath the fingernails and Ed Kray Lake.

She's like, see, this matches. Then she shows the match up of the seamen sample and says it's a nine low side match. Even though it's partial, in her opinion, it belongs to the defendant. She says that, Melinda. And we know as she's just stated, she's not going to fuck around and say something is not attributed to someone.

Donna Emmett has no questions, which is sort of shocking. So now Lake is on the stand saying he interviewed Kray Lake about his presence at the crime scene. And he said, he couldn't remember anything and then he got very hostile.

“And they're like, well, yeah, didn't you guys start fighting?”

And he's like, well, he threw a punch at me after I tried to collect a cigarette butt that he had tossed. And obviously he wanted the cigarette butt so he could test the DNA. So he explained that he got lured by someone saying that they were Bill Jensen, but he ID the voice as Crane. So what's so fucked up is that these three dudes that were in the apartment of the widow at the time, that are all like, we're Kray Lake's buddies.

This fucking guy, Crane was throwing Bill Jensen under the bus. When he made that call, he goes, hi, I'm Bill Jensen. And I've got a, I've got some information for you, meet me in this lot. You know, like he used another guy's name to throw off, he didn't say, I'm Thomas Crane. So he goes, I'm positive it was Crane that was the one that called, but he used his friend's fucking name.

So these guys have no loyalty to each other. It's like another little kind of easter egg about how there's no loyalty.

So they go, who was the third shooter there?

He goes, it was Thomas Crane, I'm positive. And then it's like, but you did tell Finn earlier that you did not see the guy. Like you can't be positive, like you didn't see him. And you were getting shot at and he was in a dark void. Everyone's taken some liberties, okay?

And now it's Donna's turn to go at Lake.

And he goes, no, obviously we haven't found the gun, you would know if he found the gun.

“And she asks, well, what happened when you asked to have Alyssa Hernandez's rape kit removed?”

And he says, oh, they told me that a superior had to authorize it. And she goes, is that all you were told? And then Lake takes a beat. And she goes, you weren't told that the evidence was too degraded and contaminated for testing. And Lake says, no.

And Donna calls for an immediate mistrial. She goes, I have proof that there is a cover up going on here. And that this witness has perjured himself and the prosecution has violated Brady. Petrovsky is pissed. She's like, all of you and my chambers now, okay?

So this is when the episode really goes bananas. And I kind of lose the plot in a lot of ways.

Donna Emmett says that she discovered biological evidence was compromised.

And Casey says, no, they were tested by lab protocol. And what I don't understand is if they weren't, then Melinda would not have testified that what she testified to. If it was done by any kind of not, unlike by the books protocol, Melinda would not have testified to what she said. And Donna wants to know where the reports, because I haven't seen them. And Casey goes, they're incomplete.

They're not finished. And Donna goes and the dog ate my homework. And Casey's like, I'll get them over to you ASAP.

“And so then Petrovsky's like, well, what about the conspiracy?”

And Donna goes Lake perjured himself. He was told that the DNA was too degraded for testing by the evidence intake officer. And Novart back is like, that guy is not a DNA expert. And if it's so degraded, how did we find two separate profiles? And Donna goes, you want to win so bad.

You'd plant evidence and frame my client. And she goes, oh, the OJ defense, good for you. So these two are really, I mean, Casey Novart and Donna Emmett really go and head to head. Petrovsky's like, not get off you, too. She goes, I'll grant you that this DNA stuff is sus.

But you cannot accuse sworn court officers without hard evidence. Casey, get those reports by close of business today to Donna to the defense. And probably to the judge, or you'll be in contempt. And one more thing, Donna says she was just because I play by the book. I'm letting you know that I'm subpoenaing Penelope fielding.

Okay, so this is just like, this is just confusing to me because I didn't understand that they were holding back the partial profile stuff from Donna. Because they said it on the stand. It was a partial profile. They said it. So what have you been there the whole time? Yes, and it's like, because she said no further questions.

You didn't say where are the lab reports? Like, I don't understand, like now we think that Novak is planting DNA evidence. Anyway, in court, Penelope is on the stand going, oh, yeah, partial profiles are the tits. They're the best damn things ever. I fuck with them big time.

I love a partial profile. And then Viola Davis starts reading a passage about how partial profiles are absolute dog shit. Do not trust partial profiles. They're dumb fuggly sluts. Okay. And she goes, who wrote that in Penelope? He's like, oops, it was me. I did.

And so when she asks Penelope, if in her opinion does this DNA match, she says, I can't answer that because the sample is the equivalent of less than a single human cell. So I cannot say with certainty that it matches the defendant.

“So why was Melinda cool was saying that she was confident it matches the defendant?”

This does not make sense to me, Melinda has specifically said I will not go against the grain. I will not go against the rules here. So then, unfortunately, the trial. Maybe she took believe it. Melinda?

Yeah. Like, maybe Melinda is better than this woman. Like, maybe she couldn't tell, but maybe Melinda could. From less than, this woman ran a lab. Like, I don't know. I just like don't, it just doesn't match up to me. Like, how she actually got her on the stand.

It just doesn't make sense to me. And so, but whatever, I'm trying to connect the dots here. So then, unfortunately, we're at deliberation and the lawyer, we're at the verdict. And the foreman gets up and says, we are deadlocked. Like, we cannot come to an agreement on this.

And no back pulls the jury. And other people are talking, so you're not really supposed to be paying attention, but I did count. And I counted eight not guilty and three guilty that we can hear. So, at least three people all women believe that these, this cop is a rapist. But eight other people did not.

And I don't know what about the, I don't know about the 12th chair because I didn't hear it. But as if this isn't fucked up enough outside the courtroom, immediately, Cecilia is being taken away by immigration enforcement. Like, I mean, this episode's from 2008 and immediately, it's like, Oh, you're the victim of a crime.

You've been trying to get Amnesty for years.

Go by. You're going back to a country that you probably like, not never known.

And she's apologizing to Alisa's father for never telling him. I'm so sorry.

And Lake is like, don't do anything stupid to Alisa's dad for shadowing.

No back says, I promise I will refile the charges and I will try him again. But how will you win? Like, there is simply not evidence. Like, if you don't have this evidence that this man was there, I don't know how you will win.

“You need to find other evidence that he was the responding officer.”

Is there proof that he also responded to this call? Like, so I don't know. I guess it's like only DNA is the cornerstone here. So at the precinct, Benson invites Finn out for a drink with the gang, but he wants to check on Lake because he's not answering his phone.

As Finn goes to leave, sailors like, uh, listen, man. Sorry about that whole completely not trusting you and jumping your phones. And it's a very stern apology, but he doesn't apologize. And Finn goes, you're a Bulldog stabiler. You're quick to assume slow to admit your wrong.

It makes for a good cop, but allows you human being. And then Benson goes, Finn here and out. And she goes, and he goes, stay out of it, live. And I was like, oh, this is my kids fighting, wow. And then Finn continues laying into Sabler.

He goes, and I know what it costs you.

But the problem is you'll be the same rap bastard tomorrow.

And nothing you say will ever change that. And then he walks out of your like shit, man.

“He walks out and much presses some papers into Sabler's chest and walks away.”

And the papers are Finn's transfer request. Spoiler alert. He sticks around for like 18 more seasons. Okay. He doesn't transfer.

Sorry to sorry to ruin that for anyone that's listening to our podcast, blind. Casey walks into Judge Johnnie's chambers. This is where my mind is like completely blown. I am out. Because Casey walks into Judge Johnnie's chambers.

You know, the esteemed Judith light who I love. And you know, sometimes I realize I call her Judy light on this podcast. And I'm going to stop doing that because we find out very soon. She doesn't like she likes to be called Judith. Casey walks into Judge Johnnie's chambers where Donnie tells her that the DA is not going

to re-file charges against Thomas Crane. And Novak is floored. She's like this man committed rape and murder of a 14 year old girl and gets to keep his badge. And Donnie assures her it's because of. But also the other thing is he was he would probably be tried for like accessory to murder.

It's if it if there's fingernails of Crane like Crane likes the one that killed Alyssa. Like he could argue like he even if he admitted to the rape let's say he could be like,

but I never wanted to kill anyone.

You know, like I don't think he would go down for murder. Maybe accessory. And then I don't know. They put people to death that were driving the getaway cars. So I have no idea actually in this country what they're doing.

So Novak's like this guy committed rape and murder and he gets to keep his badge. And Donnie's like and it's because of your actions that he gets to. And Casey tries to big time Donnie by going this doesn't concern you. And boy is she wrong. Okay.

She goes well it does now and she hands Casey some paperwork. And Casey's like fuck I'm being called before the bar. And Donnie goes yeah at my insistence. And she's like why and she goes because you lost perspective. Because I sit on the peer review board and I cannot allow you to commit a

Brady violation and lie to the court without consequence. Casey doubles down that the reports weren't finished and she sent them back. I don't even know what that means. Patrovsky said you had to have them by the end of the day. We've now gone through the final day of the trial and the deliberation.

Did you get them in or not? And Donnie goes you lied to Patrovsky and now you're lying to me. The lab reports were dated and stamped. And Casey looks caught. Okay.

Wow. And it's weird because normally when you see a lawyer do something wrong. Barba or they know. Stephanie it's like they allude to it. They're like I'm going to try to squeeze something through.

This is like we didn't know Casey lied about this. Like in my mind I was like oh are the reports not done. Like I don't know what's going on. And so Casey with this moment where she looks like fuck like she's caught. It's like so you had these reports done.

But you didn't send them to the defense, which is a full Brady violation,

“which we know Brady is that you have to share any expulatory evidence of the defendant”

with the defense if you find it, right? So that's a huge Brady violation. And instead of she thought she could just be like no they're coming. They're coming. The reports are coming.

They're reports are coming. And it's like this lawyer Donna M in is not going to like let the trial keep going without the reports. That's what I don't understand. And also if there was a report that was dated and stamped.

Did Melinda not see it. Did Melinda not why would Melinda get up there and go. No I'm confident. It just it doesn't make sense to me. I'm very confused.

So Donna Lee looks at Casey and goes we are civil servants Casey.

And she's like why did you do this?

“Like that's all she wants to know is why.”

And she's like because the bad guys can't always win.

He deserved to pay. And it's like sure you've lost some cases. But like your closure rate is pretty good. The bad guys are not always winning. You on this show.

You are putting a lot of bad guys away. Like if it was like oh my god, we haven't won a case all year. What the fuck? Like I was snapping that maybe I get that. But it's like no the New Yorker would have done like a full piece on her.

Yes. Like she would have been celebrated throughout the city. Yes. She would be running your office truly. She'd be like a center like obviously.

And Donna Lee shows she goes he deserved to pay. And Donna Lee goes and so do you. And then you really see Casey. She's crying. She goes how much trouble am I in.

And that's when it's like wow. She's really fucking admitting it.

“And Donna Lee goes center possible suspension.”

She goes for how long. She goes a year maybe more. Casey looks heartbroken. She goes what should I do. And then Donna Lee goes something else.

And it's just I mean it was obviously foreshadowed in the episode that she was getting. You know, wound by this like, you know, private defense attorney firm at the beginning. Who's like come on come help us come help us defend white collar criminals. You don't have to deal with any of this bullshit. And then her cell phone beeps while she's eyes full of tears talking to Donna Lee.

And she goes I got to go. She walks up to a crime scene with the squad where Thomas Crain is lying dead on his back. And the cops are walking Chester Lake away in handcuffs. So he's just going to jail forever. And they get killed in jail.

But yeah, like that's the last we ever see of Chester Lake. I feel like they hated him like because with other people, they could come back.

There's always their working in, you know, Amaro's working in some technology.

There's a professor like they usually send people off into retirement. Much comes back, you know, to help out. To have them be like, we're not killing you because we don't want anyone to even be sad for you. We're doing anything any bit of good work. You did the entire time you've been on this squad.

And you're going to jail for life. He helped find the killer in the Erica Christian Center episode. Like he has helped on a lot of cases. And as far as we knew was a full rule follower. That's what I don't get about this.

Not both of these cases shows two people acting in a way that they would never act and they've never acted previously. With Chester, I buy it a little bit more because he's maybe been like fucking fully obsessing over this case for 10 years. And he just can't stand when bad guys when like bad guys are posing as good guys. I kind of get that. Casey has not broken a rule really.

Like she doesn't break rules. She maybe has been to the couple of things. But she would not do something this egregious and think she could get away with. Well, it wasn't at the boy. She gets in trouble again.

She breaks the rules again. There was she gets like connected to someone and then like a boy dies because of her. Like the bitch is playing some games. I don't know. Capit and her play Ampar but they all play games.

How about at the beginning when it's like I told you not to fucking talk to Lake. You got 48 hour hold. Like she's playing by the rules there. She's not like trying to get it out of him. You know what I mean?

Like she's like they're not. She's I don't know.

Yeah, always be breaking the rules.

But she has done some. I thought it would have been nice for. Casey to have something happen where she was like I don't know if I could do this. I don't know if I could do this anymore. Like, you know, let's have.

Chester break the rules. Let's have Casey do something a little bit. But I don't know. You know, obviously I'm not going to argue with what the show puts out. But this the lab report stuff is a very confusing to me.

And I was not sure until the very last scene, which is kind of cool. That Casey had lied. Yeah, that is cool. You know, that is kind of like a cool weight to the last minute thing that you don't always. You can usually kind of see that kind of stuff coming from a mile away where you're like,

Oh, they're going to they're going to get barbell for this.

“Like he wasn't allowed to do that, you know, like can I unplug that baby barba?”

Um, but anyway, that's Dick Wolf, baby. It's over. And that's the last we ever see of Chester like we never see him again. Him getting taken off in handcuffs. I don't even know if they mention him next season.

Like anybody know how much time Chester got for that murder? No. I am talking about a few things today. Um, and they kind of suck. Okay, bad.

One really, really upset me. I mean, whatever. Because I was telling someone I go, yeah, that's really upsetting. She's like, aren't they all upsetting? I go, yeah, but some just some more than others.

Yeah, you just can't, you don't really plan which which horror will make you the most upset.

First, I'll just start with some Vidak society. Vidak, whatever. So I said it wrong. So, uh, like Harris said, it's Philadelphia group composed largely of law enforcement professionals who investigate cold cases.

They were formed in 1990, um, by three guys. So it's William L. Flycer, former Philly police officer in FBI agent hot. And then was Philly's second in command US custom special agent. I'm humiliated that I said hot after FBI agent. But that's just kind of in the mood.

I'm in too. Frank Bender, forensic sculptor from Philly. And then Richard Walter, prison psychologist, um, in Michigan. This is a cool idea for a TV show. I'm sure someone's done it.

I mean, it's probably basically the show cold case or something which I've never watched.

But like, I like that one of them is a cop. One of them is a forensic sculptor and one of them is a prison psychologist. Like, it's very evil. You know, I love to bring up evil on evil. There's like three members of the team and they all have a specific skill set.

You know? Yeah, teamwork and Avengers of forensics. Yeah. So this was named after Eugene, friend Swa Vidak. And I can't say Vidak.

I think it's just Vidak. Yeah. It's Vidak. It's not even any of the other ones. Okay.

So the criminal turned detective, um, who founded the French threat. I don't know what that is.

And as considered, I've been the first modern detective.

Um, he's 1775 to 1857. And this is, is his life. But he's known, you know, to these dorks as the first, kind of like,

“Janistic and sending the first super model, you know?”

Just to read, it looks like is like the French, um, police, French police. Whoa. Thanks for doing that. Um, so, and that started because these guys, these friends at guys just went to lunch and their chats turned into cold,

cold case solving. And everyone's a volunteer and and these are the types of people that are there. DNA experts forensic people, criminologists, medical examiners, anthropologists, toxicologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, behavior analysts, entomologists, wildlife biologists, forensic photographers, fire arm examiners, chemists,

linguists, cops, prosecutors, polygraph people, and more. Cool. And their thing is truth begets truth. They have a mission to how this is from their site. Okay, so they have a mission to help with fresh eyes via collective experience of a bunch of

seasoned professionals. It is all pro bono and there's no independent investigations. They act as a catalyst and assist law enforcement agencies only at their invitation, which I don't think is clear here because the way Craig and hates them is it's like, there's loony tunes that are don't know how to mind their business, but like they only

help when a police people like ask for help or any law enforcement agency.

“And they have to like be engaged by the cops, right?”

Yes, yes. They don't work with any families or friends and no independent investigations. And the cold case must be for older than two years old victims cannot have been involved in any criminal activity. And the case must be presented by law enforcement agency.

The first case they solved was in 1991, which exonerated Derek Carlock, who was wrongly accused for the murder of William Huey Cox, a little rock Arkansas restaurant manager. Also helped solve the murder of Terry Brooks, who was a night manager of a Pennsylvania restaurant, who was killed in 1984 by her boyfriend. And then they solved it in 1999.

It's like really cool. In 1984, the murder of Deborah Wilson, a Drexel University student was solved in 1995. After the society suggested that the murder was somehow like he was someone with a foot fetish. Because they realized her shoes and socks were missing from the body. And then they found David Dixon and he was arrested and convicted.

And the moment I heard that one of the founders was a sculptor. I thought of this case immediately. I thought of this. This is on America's most wanted. And it was a forensic files, but this is the case of John List.

And we did it and he was caught from a bus and this is the mother fucker. Oh, this is the mother fucker. So basically John List, we cover this.

“If you remember, he killed his wife in three kids.”

And then he was on the lamp for 18 years. And a site called like two of the founders helped. So one was the site guy was like, this guy's going to be wearing the same glasses. Mary doing the same shit, like he's going to be doing the same life. And then the sculptor guy built what he would look like in the future.

And he was apprehended 11 days later. Cause the neighbor recognized the bus. And I think about this guy immediately. And I can't believe it's him while I was reading. Like I was flooring.

He's totally talked about this.

Did we never talk about John List?

Is just this like a case that we did. I don't think we did. Oh. Cause I just, I just, is it J.O. H.N. L.I.S.T. Yeah, I just like know.

Cause he has like another, the butcher of something. Doesn't have like a nickname.

My bad guys. I'm just passionate.

So, um, wait, so tell me what happens in this case.

So this guy kills his wife and three kids. And he gets away for 18 years. Just leaves, just leaves. And they find him. And the guys were like, they're like, he's going to be wearing the same glasses.

He's going to live the same type of life. He's going to be going to the same church. Like he's not going to be able to live a different type of life. And then the bus guy, he was able to build this bus with this man. We'll look like 18 years later.

And it only took 11 days because the neighbor's recognized him and called. And, and he was going to the same church, playing the same instruments like everything the same. Um, yeah, you just like a family annihilator. Damn. Yeah.

But I think about, because people are like, you can't do the arts. But I guess you need more.

“Cause trick you have to figure out what this person could look like in the future.”

So there's more skills. Oh, you know what?

There's so many jobs to think about.

He's listed as one of the guys we're going to talk about for. The boogey man of Westfields. Yes, the boogey. I knew there was a name for annihilated, but we're still holding out for. Shane's dad.

Yeah, we need Shane's dad. What the fuck? One day, one day. Okay. So it is the boogey man of us.

And we're going to cover it because we want to do annihilated. Now it'll make sense. I'm like, yeah. In my head, I'm like, I know he had a funky little name. I mean, what a nightmare this guy.

Okay, anyway, anyway. Yeah. So these like Avengers. You also can't request membership.

It's a close membership organization in vital name.

“They meet monthly at the Union League of Philly.”

And I'm proud of them. I have an idea. And bad. I did look up that they're featured in. I like related true crime shows.

It says cool case. There's a show called The New Detectives, which is. It seems like it's actually a doc series. So I don't know. I don't think anyone's ever.

I don't know. Interesting. Go on. So that's all I got about them. And now we'll go to the batter.

That worse. Okay. So this is the murder of Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Payneum. June 24th, 1993, Houston. And this kind of reminds me of another episode we did.

It's just fuck. So it's T.C. Justre Park. Jennifer and Elizabeth.

“They cut through the park after a pool party.”

And this crime is described by Don Smith and he's a retired prosecutor. And he said this to ABC 13, like a, you know, Houston affiliate. And he said, we've had bad crimes in Houston, but nothing compared to this. I mean, this shook everyone to the, like the course. So the girls were 14 and 16 years old.

And the suspects were 16 age gang members. And they were ranging in age from 14 to 18. So we have Peter Anthony can to 18. Derek Sean O'Brien, 18. Ephraen Perez, 17.

Role Omar Villarreal, 17. And Jose Ernesto Medellin, 18. So can't to a Medellin were on probation for weapons violations as well. I don't know if that's even important. But they were all ended up being charged with raping and strangling to death these two girls.

That not planned it. There's no stalking. It just happened across paths. And this is like what's fucked. Just like these girls walking home and like the worst case scenario.

And these motherfuckers no remorse. Some of them were bragging it to people about the crime. No explanation. It was just kind of an informal gang initiation. Like a like a right of passage or something.

But also what's crazy is a local TV program Did a thing on gangs the day before. And the day before the killings. And O'Brien appeared on camera holding a beer and said human life means nothing. So that aired the day before.

And that's according to the New York Times. And these guys were drinking heavily. And within minutes, these girls were being raped and strangled. Very sad. They were raped for an hour before they were killed.

And even after they were dead, these guys like stomped on these girls. Drabbed their bodies naked bodies into the woods. And they were found forties later. And during what the Times describes as a frantic search by friends and relatives. And in court, these guys were out of control.

They swore at people trying to kick a camera out of a news photographer's hand. The prosecution had well way more than enough evidence. But Don Smith, the ADA and the case said. And the time reports that it's the hardest case he's ever had to prosecute emotionally. Even though he had a very strong case.

The 14 year old was looking at 40 years, the rest of them, the death penalty. It is Texas, all five of the older teens got death penalty. And the juvenile did get the max of 40. And when three of the murders got the death penalty. One of the fathers yelled out, we live for the day that you die.

And that's the Tampa Bay Times. And then he said, I'll watch you die, boy. And I think, I kind of think that's hot.

Like, I didn't think, but I'm into it.

And then he also said, you are worse than spit. You belong in hell. And then the other dad said, I wish that these guys could get executed the way they did and be left out there. I just left there on the ground to die. And then the dad also said, five for five.

That's what I wanted. And the fathers were allowed to confront these guys because of a Texas law that allows victims or they're surviving relatives to speak at the sense and sing. Um, but yeah, and it was quick, like, for one of them, the jury took less than 15 minutes to give them death. Like, these, it's like the worst case. Well, I mean, I guess if you're bragging about it, I don't even know why.

“Why was there even a trial? Why didn't they just plead guilty?”

Well, they probably didn't want to plead guilty. Yeah. What do they give a fuck? Yeah, but it's like, I don't know. I guess it prolongs your time being alive.

Oh, trying, well, yeah, trying not to get to the death penalty, I guess. Yeah. There was no way. There's just no fucking way. Yeah.

But I mean, they might not have gotten the death penalty if they'd shown up with like their hair combed and been like alcohol got the best of me. You know what I mean? Like, they could have tried. Yeah. I can wilding out and hitting photographers and swearing at people. Honestly, I'm shocked that the trial wasn't even moved.

People hate them so I mean, it was like, yeah, people fucking hated this case. Oh, obviously. Um, the next sad one is the case of Michelle Boucha.

“Um, the nickname of this is Blue Earth Jane Doe, because so many Jane Does, you have to like differentiate.”

So, um, this woman was 18 years old when she was found murdered in 1980. And it took 35 years to identify her. Uh, DNA matched from a family member, helped link the body of Michelle to a missing, uh, Texas woman. But this is actually all in Minnesota. And then of her family or nobody knew she was even ever in Minnesota.

She reported her missing May 1980 from their base city Texas home. So the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal apprehension. Oh, my God. This is. Is this fat? Bureau of Criminal apprehension.

But they're called BCA, not fat. Sure, but it could be a different thing. But we were talking about how it might not even be real, but it's real. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Okay. So Debbie Anderson, a retired police officer, couldn't believe someone could die unidentified. And especially in her small ass blue town of Blue Earth.

“So she launched a 14 year campaign to identify Blue Earth Jane Doe.”

And of course, the local sheriff's department were like, go, go fuck yourself. We don't give a shit and they drag their feet the whole time. Um, but in 2015, a 75 year old retired chief deputy sheriff Jerry Cabe was one of the officers who investigated her murder. And he said he was like thought about it every single day.

So, um, he talks about it then.

But basically, this person was found in a ravine off Interstate 90 East of Blue

Earth Minnesota on May 30th, 1980. Robert Nelson is a Minnesota state trooper. And he confessed to the murder nine years later. So he, like, they found the murder before they were able to identify the body. Because he's a piece of shit doesn't know her name to know who she was.

Didn't give a fuck, right? Um, again, these details are really bad. So he handcuffed the woman raped her, pulled off her nails with a pair of pliers. As she screamed, then strangled her. And he was on duty the whole time.

Oh my god. Um, and he, but, okay, so then this, this gets not super complicated. But like, he was already in custody for other charges. What when he was convicted of the Jane Doe murder and from that got a life sentence in Texas. Uh, but again, he did not help.

He couldn't identify her. But he also admitted to beating in sexually assaulting his young son over a period. Of years. So he was just like on a congested. Just like a brain.

Just like a fucking sadist like a crazy. Oh, yeah. Um, and so the BCA and a national DNA database filled with samples from family members of missing people to find a match using bones from an exhumed Jane Doe's unmarked grave. And Bush, a family members gave their DNA to be matched to unidentified remains around the country.

And so the family can finally have peace.

And the BCA is like, if you have missing family members, contact them. So they can have samples with their DNA. And yeah, so after 35 years, they were able to bring her remain. But they didn't really know how she got from Texas to Minnesota. No, no, no, I mean, damn.

No, that's so crazy. Oh, the statistics, I go, you know. Um, so we have another one, unfortunately. This is the case of George Schaefer. So basically, skeletal remains were found in a Florida mangrove swamp in 1974.

In 2022, they finally felt like they identified her and surmise that should fall in victim to the serial killer.

Um, and a Texas-based genetic genealogist helped the Palm Beach County Sheriff's office identify Susan Gailpool.

“She was 15 when her family reported her missing from their browser County trailer park just before Christmas in 1972.”

She had hitchhiked once before. And nobody knew if she had left or was taken, you know, the 70s seemed crazy. Like the 70s in terms of murder and hitchhike and all of that. No, it just seems like the, a fucked time.

Yeah. Yeah. The morning of June 16th, 1974 was when the first sign of the missing team was found.

A man in his sons found scattered human remains and scraps of clothing and then she was tied up with wire to a tree and there was only bones left. And they tried using dental records to identify her, but they didn't and the case went cold. But then more bodies kept piling up, assaults and deaths on several other women in Palm Beach. So July 1972, there's two vacationing teens. Um, they're hitchhiking again by the beach.

They encountered a police officer, Martin County Sheriff's deputy named George Schaffer. Um, and he was now about this guy. He was fired from his last police job with Wilson manners police for pulling over women. Then looking up their information and then asking them out on dates. But then he got hired nearby. Don't worry. But another police department didn't hire him because he failed a psych exam.

“And like most cops and like most cops failure, right?”

He tried to be a priest. They said no, thank you. He tried to be a teacher. They said absolutely not. And so many signs, so many signs, classic dad beat him because, um, but not his sister. So then he wanted to be a girl. So we like he hated women too.

Um, because he got the shipping out of him, but his sisters didn't. He loved women's underwear.

He became a peeping Tom. I always say we need him nip that in the bud peeping Tom.

Automatic chemical castration. He killed animals. He beheaded cows and had sex with the carcasses. Oh my god. He would then take the stolen underwear to tie himself up to a tree with a news and hurt himself while masturbating. Oh, god, deeply deeply.

One supervisor and this is medium dot com, so like take with what what you want, but um, one supervisor's quoted saying he'd better never let me hear of his trying to get a job with any authority over other people or I would do anything I could to prevent it. But then God, this place hired him. He one time to a former fiance confessed that he thought about killing women and so she dumped him. And then his ex wife divorced him on grounds of extreme cruelty. And so he told these two girls that he sees on a beach. They're he is on duty.

And Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Suels, they're in 18 and 17 years old. He said, "Hey, checkings illegal. It wasn't." He drove them back to their apartment and also was like, "I can actually just take you to the beach the next morning." So he picked them up, did not take them to the beach. He took them to a dilapidated shed on Hutchinson Island where he gagged and handcuffed them. And he bound each girl to a tree tied a new surround their necks and forced them to stand on exposed tree roots. But he had to leave. So he got a call. Thank fucking God. He got a dispatch.

And so the girls escaped.

But um, before that he was like, um, tell me which one of you I'm going to kill first.

And then was like, and or I'm going to sell you to sexual slavery. He raped them while they're standing on these tree roots. Got called to a job, luckiest radio call ever. And so then when he learned about the girls escape, he admitted what he did. He went to his boss and he goes, um, and this is according to like local seven news. OK, I arrow. And he goes, "Hey, I've done something foolish. You're going to be mad at me." He said, you know, over done his job while trying to teach the girls a lesson about the dangers of hitchhiking.

Nobody believed him, which is actually the most shocking part of all of this.

“Like, yeah, it was like, oh, the boss was going to let him go. Like, when I read that nobody believed him, I was like, what?”

So he was arrested. He was arrested and charged with aggravated assault and false imprisonment. Um, and then, but he got a deal. So he's the cop that did this. He did get a deal. So in exchange for pleading guilty to one count of aggravated assault, he would do one year in jail three years probation. And then he requested of another six months bond. And his request was granted. Oh, my god. Back to not shocking, right? He was then free on $15,000 bail bagel. OK, someone's hungry.

So he was then freed on $15,000 bail when he struck again. And the not shocking, again, not shocked. I wrote that. I was just like, OK, so they let him go. They let him go. And he, of course, attacked and no survivors this time. So Susan play 17 Georgia, Jessup is 16. They vanished from Fort Lauderdale, September 27, 1972.

Places mother told police that they left with an older man that they used to call Jerry Shepard to go to the beach.

And then they were never seen alive again.

And she was so creeped out by their friend that she wrote down their license plate number.

“Because she got a bad feeling, but like, why is this old man hanging out with her teen daughter?”

Yeah, but it's the 70s man. I feel like they're like, he's just this guy. We know he's going to give us a ride to the beach. Like, free like, I don't know. I feel like people were not girls were hitchhiking. People are kind of like not hovering over their kids as much. I know it's very fucked up. So six months later, the remains were found April 1st, 1973 by another father and son looking for aluminum cans on Hutchinson Island.

It's like the island of Father's son adventure. Six miles away from the girls that were attacked the previous summer, so right around there. And the girls again, boundo tree murdered, beheaded dismembered. So when their bodies were found, he was serving a six month sentence for the assault from the last summer with the girls that survived.

“Right? So he was convicted of this assault case of those two girls on December 22nd, 1972.”

But the judge allowed his formal sentencing of jail term to begin after the holidays. They can victim. They let him do Christmas and then he gets more victims. And then he's so he's in jail serving this minimum sentence when these other bodies are found. So yeah, if this is confusing, I'm confused too. It's the Tampa Bay Times. I don't know what to tell you. It's Florida.

But like basically, you know, he gets arrested for the assault of these two young girls. They let him out on bond. And then when he's finally convicted December 22nd, he's like, hey, can I at least do Christmas at home and then go to prison and the judge goes, all right, man. And so then he finds these two young girls murders them and then self reports to this like six month stint. And then an April father and son looking for aluminum cans find their bodies found the bodies murder dismembered all of it.

And so he was finally like, yeah, it's so like if it was if they just put him in prison and didn't let him do Christmas at home, these girls would be alive. Yeah. So we got life in prison. And these were the only homicide. Sheafer was convicted of even though he was a potential suspect in as many as 30 killings dating back to 1969. And then in the 1990s, one of his old girlfriends, Sandra London, a cry writer reshout to him and he wrote to her that he killed between 80 and 110 women.

She handed it the info over to the authorities, but they never really talked to like nothing really happened with that.

And he was publicly being like, I'm innocent, I'm innocent, I'm innocent, but confessing all this to her. So then she confronted him and he flew into a rage and like threatened her life. So she cut off all contact. And good news, he was stabbed to death in December 1995. We are against the death penalty and state sanction murder, but we love these guys today. And it was by a fellow in May at Florida State Prison. It was over a hot couple of water like nothing, whatever and he had over seven, sorry. And he had over 40 stab wounds, wet wipe, amptious eyes throughout. He was cut from ear to ear, slit and half like all of it. And so that's pretty good.

So wait, so did he ever get he got busted on the two girls.

“These last two girls, but then what about the girl whose body was there for like two years, who's in pool, did he get hurt for her or no?”

Those are the only ones he was convicted of. Yeah, they probably can't prove it because she was like bones. Oh my god. That's fucking terrible. Yeah, so these are like really bad. So maybe Chester liked to do a solid by killing these guys. Yeah, sacrificing himself to go to jail.

But the other thing, he's a hero. I think they could have looked into that guy's jacket. They could have looked into him and they could have found him guilty of a lot of crimes. There's no way if this guy didn't get away with this rape ten years ago that he hasn't done a million more crimes since then. Yeah, they could have gotten him and then he would have had to actually pay and get justice for his crimes.

Like, I don't know, just feels like killing him. Chester killing him is not like, you want like a cop to have to like be subject to the same system that they've put so many people through sometimes,

wrongly, you know, but you don't always get what you want.

All right. Well, we have a sick guest. So don't go anywhere. Our guest today is a prolific TV writer who has written some of the most iconic, darkest hauntingest episodes of SVU. We have been wanting to get her on this podcast for a long time and through the help of a listener. Thank you to that listener. We were able to get her. She's also written episodes of CSI criminal minds and doc.

Oh, I don't know. Oh my God, you're so excited to meet you. This is awesome. Thank you for saying the name of episodes at you. I mean, what a, what a, what a stretch. What an SVU, a stretch you've had. Wow, I was with wolf films. Let me see, I started on a show called New York undercover in the mid 90s.

“And I was with them for three years, I think, and then SVU, I came on in 2000.”

And then that run was finally over in 2012.

So a long time going back and forth to New York, you go for three weeks. You come home for three weeks. You go back for three weeks. And I did that for what 15 years. Wow. Well, well, I was going to say, so you started out on New York undercover. Was that, I mean, judges judging by your IMDB.

That's like one of your first writing jobs. You had, you had a few other things. But that was like your first regular thing. So you, what happened? You get in good with Dick Wolfe. And he just brings you over to the next thing. Like what's the, you know, it was like this.

He said to me in our first meeting. You write like a man. Okay. Now if women heard that today, They'd be so offended, but I was Dorothy Parker. And so I was like, yeah. Wow.

And I took it as a compliment because when that New York undercover was my first job in television,

“period, I was doing features, but in features you have to hustle. And so at one point,”

I had like five features going at once because I went from studio to studio

to set things up. They can set things up and they never see the light a day.

You're just writing and working and writing and working. And you're always pitching, always pitching. But the great thing about it was it prepared me to be in the Wolf camp, because they don't spoon feed anything. You have to be able to break your own story, come to the table,

pitch to the writer's room. Every last facet of that story. You don't get it spoon fed to you. Today it's spoon fed. And I just think it makes for a week writers.

If you can't figure out how to break your own story.

“So we've spoken to Samantha Corbin, who I think you overlapped with.”

And then another writer from later seasons. And it seems like it's very, do you think that's specific to the Dick Wolf rooms? Because most of the time you hear about just a ton of writers in a room, they all break story together and then they kind of can go off and do their own episodes. But from what they made, it sounded like to us.

It's like very solitary when you work on these shows. You kind of do a lot on your own. Yeah, but that's not like your experience at CSI and like other procedurals, or you think that's like a Dick Wolf thing. As CSI, it was a room room and you broke the story in the room with the other writers.

At Wolf films, when you came to the table, that story better be broken. Because the writers were only supposed to spack on your holes or point out logic problems or help you to frame it, to tighten it, but they weren't involved in the creation of it. So when you look at the writers' credit, it's actually true. Yeah.

When it says written by is truly written by. Wow. So that it's just like you get on the show. And when it's your turn, they throw you in the deep end of the pool. And if you can't swim, you're gone.

Yeah. And then did they give you a like a crime or a medical thing, or it was truly you found the inspiration for the episodes as well. Everybody looked at like you'd have a list kind of like research areas.

I always went to the McKinney's book that laid out what the law is in New York.

So because we were mixed in with the law and order writers, criminal intent wasn't in our building, but they had a lot of lawyers, a lot of prosecutors, a lot of defense attorneys, and everybody had a set of McKinney's on their shelf. So I got my own set of McKinney's, and sometimes by reading cases that changed the legislature, that would be my inspiration.

There were like search engines you could go into to find your story to find your jumping off point.

But like with, I noticed, you people used to say that my stories are very, very dark. Yeah, and it was kind of where I was comfortable living. I would actually sometimes get the murder books and DVA from whatever the story was. I would hear stories from our TAs, from our technical advisors, because they actually lived it. Even technical advisors from other shows would tell me stories that resonated so much.

It lived with me for a very long time, and I would use like pieces of it in other scripts.

“Yeah, because we had, we've talked in Neil Barrack a couple of times, and he would, you know, I think he comes at it from like the medical side of things and would read medical journals and then say, "How can we put this into an episode?"”

But it's interesting that you kind of were coming at it more from like the legislature and the law side of things looking at this. Yeah, Kenny's book. I got to check about out. It's Mickey, it's Mickey, Kenny's. Yeah, it's, but they use, now it's all digital, you can go along. You don't have to physically have the books, but I'm pretty much, I think I took my set. I probably wasn't supposed to do that, but I took my set, but it to me, I still like holding a book.

I'm going to continue to hold a book because like I was telling your guy that was trying to set me up. I was like, you're talking to the biggest lead I did ever live.

I still write out a hand write out my scripts first, really, and then type them in.

I'll only do certain sections like that, but I also, it's a form of rewriting. So I long handed, and then I'll type it in, and every day, I'll go back to the beginning. So by the time I get to the end of the script, the first half of the script is really tight. And the last half is really Lucy Goosey, and I'll just be like, where did your talent go? I'll find it.

Are there certain actors or characters that you enjoyed writing for more were excited to do or specific storylines that? Or did you know even like the guest stars before they came or were they cast after like some of the bigger names? Well, ludicrous.

“Okay, that's what I want to talk about ludicrous.”

ludicrous. ludicrous was planned.

I knew his public issues, very good friend of mine.

She said, well, you do this favor for me, and I was like, this is not a favor. I can do this, which is why I actually planned for it to be a two-partner. And I actually wanted it to be a year apart, which is how long it takes to mount a murder case. Wow. So that part actually reflected reality as opposed to, you know, how they did it on law,

“in order where it's half cops, half lawyer, they're not telling you, and you have to know that it takes a year to a year and a half to bring a murder case to trial.”

It's a long marathon. Yeah, and he brought down SVU. I mean, he kind of, he fucked them all over. And got away with it. He's going to know.

He's like, I don't know about that. Yeah. He's excellent. Like, I'm surprised he hasn't done more. I know he does the fast in the furious movies, right?

See, in some of those, you know, he's like, was really good. He went to space in the last one in a Pontiac. I saw it. Well, we actually went out with a show and we pitched it everywhere.

And it sort of bummed me out because to me, I thought it was a no brainer. But I'm not giving up. Like, there's other things to do. Like, it's really interesting. It's like, right now, I'm sort of in development hell on a couple different things.

And what I say hell is because the business got offended and nobody truly knows what it is now. And nobody's really sure. Like, I can't even tell you what elements they're looking for to actually give them what they want.

So it's always kind of a crap shoot and you're shooting in the dark and you're hoping that you're hitting the paper targets.

And a lot of times they'll be like that pitch was great, but it's it's not for us. Yeah. And I go, what is for you? And they can't even verbalize it because they're not sure themselves. So it's a little bit, you know, I don't want to make excuses for my failures.

I'm just telling you. I know it's just a reality. That's just what's happening right now. Yeah, I have so many friends who have been going through the same. They're like, we're going to do, this is actually too close to something else we have.

It's like what thing, they don't even really have it. It's like all very no one knows.

Yeah, and everyone's executive is always getting fired right after they buy something.

“Then they get fired and then you have to see if the next executive wants it.”

Like, you know, it's this never ending. Kind of bureaucracy. Everyone's a loser. Well, it's not so much losing is sort of hedging your bets. They're not gambling.

Yeah, that's it. This isn't like back in the day of Brandon Tartakov, where you had time to put something on and then give it time to find it. Yeah. Scientists never would make it today because they put it on for four episodes.

Then they hold to production, then they retool, then he put it back on like, there was room to grow. There's no room to grow because there's so much junk. You have to find an audience right away.

“And it's because I can remember when there was only three champs.”

Yeah. And you watch what was on and you, you know, that was that. But now, as you can go to YouTube, everybody wants to go to YouTube. The networks are afraid of YouTube. And you just go maybe YouTube is the answer.

So that when you get so bankrupt, you have nothing that you figure out. You dial in to what it is that you want. Even though we're having you on today to talk about your entire career, but like specifically it's tied to the episode cold, which is the one where Chester Lake kind of goes outside of the law.

But so does so does Novak. And so it's just interesting that you know, did you have some of that in mind when like this plot is like, I mean, maybe it was like you guys knew Diane Neil was leaving the show or something. And she had to earn because it was interesting to me to see her been the rules.

And then Lake go up because we never see even though we see stable or bend them to full on go shoot a guy at the end.

We don't we don't see them do that, you know, right. So well, I was told, let's do it.

“I sort of complained about this because I was like, why am I the wolf films executioner?”

Because on New York under cover, I had to, I killed one of the detectives in that blew him up in the car. And so, and I killed two in that episode. I killed one detective I shot him. And the funny thing about that was, he knew it was getting fired and he took out his anger on me.

And I remember we were in the middle of 10th Avenue. And he used his sides because he's a big dude. And he was like, before I knew it, he was in my face. And rather I stood my ground, but I was like, I'm a fiction. And I got in a cab and I went back to my hotel.

And I rewrote his death. And I shot him. I had to empty a clip in his face. Hell yeah. And standards and practices say, you, Judy, you cannot do this.

You cannot empty. That's, it's, it's like that's 10 shots. Also their criminals, they have a clip that has 15.

OK, so I negotiated the number of shots that I could shoot him in the face.

And we settled on five.

“Wow, you had to negotiate shots to the face.”

Yes, because what I wanted was for him to have to stay in the scene after he was dead. Because it was just this face. We had to lay there with his face covered. And I was like, I, because I said, I'm a fiction. Some of your other hunting work I would say is burned.

That's one of our favorite episodes on the podcast that we covered. And I remember people were like, wow. So right, you guys are just like right off the bat.

Just going to get into burned.

Like it was so. Wow. I was, I was angry because, look, I was also the person they went to. Whenever they were overbudget. They would come to me and say, save us 800 grand.

Did this do that because Neil would spend money expeditiously on, you know, on other episodes and pay no attention to the pattern. So Peter Jenkowski or whoever would come to me and say,

“we need can you just, can you write something and just save us the money?”

Well, I originally wrote burned to see her actually get set fire to. And I had to figure out a way to sell it without it. So I thought about what came into my mind was rich or prior, talking about, and understand, talking about, uh, debrisment and how the nurses have to get the dead flesh off of you. And they have to scrub you.

And he made a joke of it. And he's like, hey, every day the nurses were coming by saying, we're going to wash you and we're going to wash you. And you're going to be, it's going to be great. We're going to wash you.

And he was like, yeah, you keep talking about it. And he goes, that sponge hit my burn and I stood straight up in the water said, don't touch me because what they're doing is they're removing the dead burnt flesh off of you. So you can actually heal and not die from infection. And they're not using brushes.

They're not using it's a sponge, but it's still, it's like your nerve endings are underneath all of that. And I don't know why they don't just give them morphine or why they don't just do it when they're unconscious. It makes no sense to me. And the nurses, in fact, the nurses who work in the burn unit, I got to give it to them. Because think about it.

Think about how many times the kid has come in there because they're far away, Kuku, and set them on fire or did something crazy like imagine the people, the all of the people who are burned, who were attacked. And that includes acid burns and everything else. And there were attacked.

“And so you have to have the right temperament to be able to heal those people and nurse those people back to health.”

So with burned, I saw it about Richard prior. And so I wrote it in such a way that they were going to do the treatment on her. You didn't see it happen, you heard that he threw gasoline on her and it was based on a true story in Maryland, where this fool, where he was divorcing his wife, they were breaking up and he went to her job. She worked in a team all over this on the pod.

And he threw gasoline, he had it in a sprite bottle. Yeah. She ran out of the store, he doused her with it, he set her on fire. And I said, I need to put that in a script. And when they took away my budget in order to be able to do the stunt, I said, how can I sell it?

And I remembered Richard prior. And I said, that's how to do it. Oh, I, it really, and I told Eric will sell. I need screams. It's Benson and Stable are walking down the hallway. I need piercing, violent scream.

Yeah. And it just, well, it was. Oh, awful.

Did you of, of like Christopher Maloney, Mariska, I see, bells or did you have like one of the four major ones that you were always like excited to have to get to right for?

Any of them because they always came to play.

I loved it when bells or was in a scene because he always had Borgo in his dressing room and he told, Okay, ready? I love that. I mean, because he always brought back the best French wine or less of bless his heart. From his home in France.

Yeah. I see what always like surprised me with a little tidbit from his past, you know.

“And telling me a little story that made me go, what?”

And Mariska was always ready to like listen, meet me at ABC home, we're called shopping. You know what I mean? Like, I just come into New York or even Maloney going, you know what you need? And I was like, don't tell me because if it's going to be wrong, I'm going to make you pay. I'm going to make you pay.

Oh, my God, I love it. So yeah, so to me, it was like this was lightning in a bottle that you didn't even realize.

Even Dan Florek, you know, you just, he was our first friend.

I remember a guest because Dan went ran the gamut. He was the lieutenant in law and order. He came over to ask for you. He like, I think he did a couple of guests stars on maybe criminal intent. I think he was in criminal intent for one or two.

“I don't remember, but like, he sort of was the guy, you know?”

So we got this lightning in a bottle and we didn't realize in the, like when it first happened, that that's what it would be. And we wrote to their strengths as much as possible. And we, we just did what we had to do. Most of the time it was because a script was doing two days.

Or, you know, you have very little time. I spent a lot of, a lot of my time. I wasted some of my time winding and crying about it about how little time I had. And then somebody would say, you're, you're taking up precious time winding and crying instead of putting it on the page and I, I could ask you.

That's what I tell my daughter when she's doing her homework. She's just sitting there crying about the homework. I'm like, you could just be doing it and be done with it sooner. Yeah, but it doesn't work like that because I have to sit with it. Yeah, for a minute.

And I watching a blinking cursor or a cursor period doesn't help me. And looking at my white page doesn't help me. I got a pace around talking through and wait for the characters to start talking. Do you ever watch the show anymore? Do you ever catch it?

I never watch the show. I, the problem for me was I made the sausage. I didn't want to eat it and so I would see many, many, many, many cuts. And so it's no longer enjoyable for me. But I will say this.

When you said, you may want to rewatch cold and I actually watched it. I was like, I got a lot of my stuff. I got a lot of stuff that I like, like the V doc society got to show that. Like the crime, the 60 machine, put that in there.

“Like there was the only way to recreate the gun battle.”

You also got Judge Petrovsky, you know, Johanna, you got viola Davis and Judith Light.

Yes, that's like a powerful formula.

Who is my favorite and she used to say to me all the time. When somebody would say Judy and I came out and she goes, it's Judith. And then she'd look at me and she's like, it's Judith. Your mother named Judith. And that's the name you should go by and I say, yes, man.

So. And from those days, you know, people would say, do you like Judy or Judith? I said, I answer to both. But for the most part, it's like, it's my writing credit. It's like, you know, she's like, your name is Judith.

You gave us so much. Yeah, Judy, I feel like I could choose you for another two hours.

“But we should probably let you go, do you have anything?”

I know you said you're like in development on a bunch of stuff. Is there anything that you want to like promote that you have going on? Well, it's a, we haven't even got started yet, but I'm pretty excited about collaborating with my daughter. Okay. I was going to ask you about that because you have one daughter that's a TV writer also, right?

Yes. She's a TV writer. My oldest daughter is a book agent. Yeah. And so I should probably look at her list to see what's there.

But my daughter, Pilar, she goes by again, she goes by Carmen Pilar Golden.

But we all, throughout her entire life, we've always called her by her middle name.

And she was like, why did you do that? And I was like, just because. But we're going to go out with a project together. And I, it kind of feels strange and exciting. It's like, I warned her about following me in this business. And I told her not to do it.

So she, she promptly disobeyed me. But. And she sold to pilots was the last year or year before. She sold to pilots and she was a show running and Amazon show called Beyond Black Beauty. And before that, she was on a bunch of shows like God friend in me.

And she don't wife level and she did some other things. But we're going to do this show. We're going to tackle. We're going to tackle internal affairs. Because because I'm.

They feels like there's so much corruption. That it is like a river of material that we can use. And what I didn't even know was then in a lot of internal affairs divisions. There are people working for them that you don't. You don't even see them in uniform.

They are undercover all the time. Like on on the street, they are undercover all the time.

They don't, they've never go into the internal affairs building.

No one knows who they are. But these people. You never ever see them. Not in a police station never. Unless they've been arrested themselves.

And it just doesn't hand just saying. This is your legend. Thank you so much. This is so interesting. It gave us so much information.

Thank you so much for doing this.

“I mean, honestly, I've like 10,000 more questions for you.”

But we have to let you go live your life. Yeah. Yes, but I can always. Do another one. Yes.

I am open to answering all of your questions because this was actually.

It took me down memory lane and I realized I had a really good time. Yeah. You know, I had a good time when I lived it. I and just thinking about it and remembering things have happened. And gosh, what is this name?

I blank out the actor from prison break. Oh, my word. When was Miller? His episode was fantastic. And I'll tell you all about it next time.

Okay. All right. This is a good piece. This is a good piece. I'm obsessed with her.

She really. She can't lie. And I like that. No, and she is. I like her vibe.

I like that. I like knowing the annoying stuff. We don't know about that stuff. Like, what do you have to do with budget?

“What do you have to do when you can't get a location?”

Yeah. What do you do when the creative isn't that? You have to get rid of a character. You have to do this. Like, I kind of lose sight that there are these financial embossed things for these writers.

Yeah. I don't think about that. It was like, what a badass because like, I don't know. I have been a writer. I've been in rooms.

I've been a writer with just one other person. I, you know, but I like the room feeling of being with a bunch of other people. And she's like, no, that makes you weak. You got to work alone. Like, she's like, a lot of the SV writers.

They kind of just like, they get together. Maybe discuss the season. And then they just break off and do their own shit for a long time. Which is like, kind of cool. And like, I think it's like why you can get such a different feel for different episodes.

Right? Like, even though all the episodes, yeah, like, you know, it doesn't feel like friends. We're most episodes feel like the similar, you know, you can get an episode.

Which maybe that's like unique to us because we're literally like a reaction.

Well, they actually recognize sort of their shell.

“I think about like Helen Shaver and I'm like her action scenes and the running and the bridges.”

Like, that was more action than usual. Yeah. Like, there's deaf and with Judy, it's like darkest fuck. But like being like, oh, well, I couldn't film this. How do I make the burn scene seem terrible?

But you can't show it because we don't have a budget. Right? Like, I don't know. I'm like so impressed with her. I am obsessed.

Just like harboring. Yeah. Like, I'm halfway through. I was like, this is going to be an ask. We're going to have to do a Neil Bear with her.

We're going to just have to have her come back another time.

I feel like we have like more to get out of her.

She's really cool. We love Judy. Postmortem for this episode. We have to show like, I love the Vidoc society. Ego is the killer of anything productive in terms of any profession.

Creative or police or anything like being territorial. Not wanting information, not looking at stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's weird. It's disgusting. Like, just your lake.

“Honestly, if he had, I know we had to get him off the show.”

I know like, I know what the behind the scenes are, but in terms of the character. If he had like gone to the other people in his unit, like, they would have helped him. We could have gotten these guys the right way. You wouldn't have had to murder anyone, probably. Like, you wouldn't be in a shootout.

Like, and we could have, I mean, who knows for sure. They're obviously wasn't enough evidence.

But Shester just kind of wanted to like do it on his own.

You know, like the ego of it. Like, like, these guys that want their own win. Or, yeah. You know, he'll go to prison. I don't really feel like Casey does that.

But, you know, I kind of feel like this was a weird end for Casey. But we do know she comes back after this anyway. So I think our Casey and I was like, yeah, okay. Yeah, I don't think I don't see him doing the shootout. But you might have to see no back, of course.

Yeah. I also the real crimes are so upsetting. And they actually haunted me for this whole week or so. That after we talked about it, I really am upset. I'm upset that the guy got to go home for Christmas.

I'm upset that like tying up two teenage girls and raping them as they stand with Nooses on their net got him six months. Like it's, you know, it's again with the people that are making the laws or the predators. And then they gaslight us in the thinking that they're not all guilty when you are allowing. You're giving the environment.

You're giving the environment to allow this. I was just reading one of our cases that we covered. Remember the boy that got kidnapped. And then it turned into a TV movie and everything. And he was being held for seven years by this pedophile.

I was just re-reading that that guy got five years in jail. Well, even the Josel Pelico case that the husband only got the rapist got 20. And it's like, because that's the max. And it's like, he drugged his wife and let people gang rape her for decades. What?

Yeah. It should be at least the amount of time they were doing their crimes. He shouldn't be let. That's that's danger to society. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm sad for these girls. I'm sad that police and the justice system fails us time and time again. Yeah. And thank God it's not the 70s anymore.

I took my kids to Lunar New Year in Chinatown this weekend. And like the beginning of the parade was just the cops driving up and down the street on motorcycles for a while. And people were just videotaping it. And I was like, what's happening here? Like, what?

Why do we care about this? Like, is this the what's going on? But I mean, I appreciate law enforcement to an extent. I'm obviously calling the cops if I get in trouble.

“But I just was like, why am I watching like 50 guys on motorcycles go up and then come back?”

And then go up and then come back. Like, and why does that happen? If they just did a little drag, they wouldn't have to do that. They would use our tax fucking dollars. Yeah, yeah.

Um, two motorcades. I don't know. I love the Vidak society. I like people being so passionate that on their off time. They still do their stuff.

Yeah. Let's get to what what Sister Pagdo. This is our weekly segment where we direct you to an organization. An article, a documentary, something to give you more info about what we talked about today. And we wanted to point you to the Vdox Society today.

As Lisa has said, they for more than 30 years. The Vdox Society has provided pro bono expert assistance to law enforcement agencies working on cold case homicides for more information or to donate. You can head over to vdoc, which is vidocq dot org. And that will be in our show notes and posted in a link.

Uh, a link will be posted on our stories a day. This episode comes out. And we save all those stories in our WWE SPD highlights on our Instagram page, which is that's my stop pod. And next week we will be doing sophomore jinx from season one episode six.

Season one, baby.

“Um, thank you guys so much for listening as always.”

We love you. See you next week.

That's my stop is an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover. Shoot us an email it. That's must up [email protected]. Listen to that's must up on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the podcast on Instagram at that's messed up pod and follow us personally at Caraclank and at Glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer, KCO Brian, and our associate producer, Christina Chamberlain. And to our mixer, John Bradley and our guest book, our Patrick Cautner. And to Henry Capersky for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgare, Daniel Cramer, and everybody at exactly right media.

I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast doubt the case of Lucy Leppby.

We unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? It's just been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture of the case, Colach.

“What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe?”

Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to doubt the case of Lucy Leppby on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world.

The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS, and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckard, in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor.

“But here's the thing, Bachelor fans hated him.”

If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here, this case has gone viral. The dating contract.

A great a date mean, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young, listen to love trapped on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.