Reasonable Doubt w/ Bradley Whitford

On the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

“We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies these episodes”

are based on. These are our stories. Done! Yay! That's messed up in SVU podcast.

I am Lisa Trager. And I'm Kara Clank. And by now, hopefully you know what's going on here. It's us VU. It's true crime.

It's interviews with celebs to be honest. And today's a really good one. But first, wow. I have, I can't believe it. OK.

Tell me. OK. So I feel like you have a more exciting life than me.

You always have fun stories.

And I finally feel like it's my moment in the sun. OK. So stories have fun stories. No, I know. I know.

OK.

“So I mentioned this on the pod a few weeks ago that I was going to see”

Ahmadiyya's at the Pesadina Playhouse starring Jefferson Mays, friend of the pod, aka Dr. Carl Rodneck. OK. So the week or so before, I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to like see if he wants to like say hi after the show,

right? So I email his publicists and I'm just like, hey, I interviewed your client a year ago on my podcast. I'm going, I already have tickets. I'm not asking for anything free.

I was like, I would love to pop it and say hi after the show. She was like, he would love to see you. I was like, I was gagged. OK. I also did see the photo.

And I would like to say, Jared going gray. I think it's a great look. Thank you. Do you feel that way or are you not into it? Yeah, because you know what?

He was already so blonde that it's so it's so gradual. Like it's kind of like, because I haven't seen him in a long time. And I was, yeah, I was like, this is a good look. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going good. Because he kind of still has a baby face.

And so very, I just, now that I mentioned your husband, I obviously think of Kamell, the new star of White Lotus. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, and then I had him like, that's the biggest deal ever. And then I remember he's like Marvel, like he is famous.

But like, I just came and I know. But I texted his wife yesterday, who's like my good friend. And I was like, I was like, I'm simultaneously feel betrayed that you didn't tell me, but also know fully well

that you could never have told me.

Yeah, thank you for realizing. Because I was like, that's so huge. But I texted him congrats.

“And I think that he's over the moon, like so excited.”

Yeah. And France, I mean, yeah, they're going to be near Con. They're going to be in Con. They're going to have this time of the lives. It's going to be amazing.

All right, get back. Okay, so you're at the Pasadena Playhouse. Okay, so I'm at the Pasadena Playhouse and we see the show. And I'm going to, I honestly, maybe the best play I've ever seen in my entire life.

Like I've ever seen on my day as the movie. I have never seen, I've never watched the play. Like it was so good, the stage picture. But the last thing I saw there was Kate with you, right? Like so Kate Perlantz, one woman show, awesome.

But like pretty much a black stage with like a projection up during certain points. This was like scrims and projections in the back. And like this awesome two floor set where like people keep appearing almost like ghosts at the top. Like it was like really fantastic and Jefferson maze is the star of the damn show.

It's called Amadeus because it is about Mozart. But he plays Salieri. And like if you don't know the show, it's basically like it's basically like they're

both composers and Salieri realizes that most of the photos, he looks incredible this

way. Yeah, he realizes that Mozart is like a god-given talent and so he basically makes it his mission to like ruin him so that he can be, but it's like, but he acts like his friend. So it's like a tale of gaslighting and somebody like trying to take you down. But acting like your friend, it's like so good.

It looks so cool. Wow. He has like the most, he has so many lines like, I mean, it's like he's the star of the fucking show. It's nuts.

And he does an amazing job. There's monologues where he's screaming, he has to go from young Salieri to old dying Salieri. And it's like a totally different posture and voice and everything like he's a master. Like he was so good.

So you know, and I saw it the second to last day. Like it closed the next day. So it was a full house. So we go. We go backstage.

We're waiting. You've been in the room. We're sitting on these little couchs kind of like waiting because it's this big green room where everyone has like a little dressing room off to the side. So we're just like waiting for him to come out.

Okay. And I'm seeing other members of the cast and I'm like, that was amazing. You were so good. blah blah blah blah. There's opera in it.

Like some of the actresses and actors like sing opera. It was crazy. And then in the doorway comes this big guy.

Oh my god.

And I looked to the side and I go, I go, oh, that looks like Christopher Maloney.

And like kind of from the side. Are you kidding me? No. I go kind of from the side that guy looks like Christopher Maloney. And then Jefferson Mays comes out of his room and he's like in a row, he's just obviously

take it off his makeup off. I can't believe this. And he goes, and he shakes the man's hand. How am I Maloney lighter in my hand? Yeah.

He goes and shakes the man's hand. And in my mind I'm going, well, it's not Christopher Maloney because Jefferson Mays would know Christopher Maloney. Then he steps into the dress into the green room and it is Christopher Maloney. And my entire heart, like sinks into my stomach.

There's like 15 people in the green room.

“Do you think Jefferson's like putting this together?”

Like in his head like, oh, this is no, no, he's not. So he, because he hasn't even seen us yet. He hasn't even seen me on Jared yet. He's like zipped out of his dress, he went and gone and seen straight to obviously gone straight to Maloney.

And so he is, but he buzzes around. He goes somewhere else because Maloney knows one of the actors in the play. Okay. So I'm like, oh my god. Oh my god.

Jared is sitting there with me and he goes, how can I support you? What are you going to do? And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like paralyzed. Like I don't know what to do. I'm usually like pretty cool around celebs.

And I just was like, I don't even know like how I speak to him because I know he kind of it. But he's in a good mood. He how great they did whatever and I'm like, okay, so then he goes and he's deeper into the green room taking pictures with some of the cast members.

And then Jefferson comes up to us and I'm like, oh my god, hi, it's like, yeah, you know, Cara from the podcast. And he goes, of course. That's so much for coming back. Oh my god.

And I was like, you were so amazing. I'm like talking about how how could he possibly like keep his voice every night. Day after day goes. It just comes back. I was like, oh my god.

It's because he screams monologues. Like it's crazy. But anyway, the whole time I'm like talking to Jefferson, I'm also like in the back of my mind, like I've won eye wandering like where's Christopher Maloney. And so I go, I go, I can't believe Christopher Maloney's here, Jefferson.

And he goes, oh, you got to get him. And I go, I go, I go, I know I got to go say hi. And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he and I chat for a little bit. He's so fun.

He's got to run next later, right, like they never worked together.

“That's what I realized after that's when I realized after the reason he was introducing”

himself is because Rudnik is season like 14, 15, right? So they never, they never probably. Yeah. So but in my mind, I just wasn't, you know, I wasn't thinking seasons, right? No, I know.

No, I know. No, I know. The same thing came to me after I go, I said to Jared, I go, that's why they don't know each other. Different later seasons and Jared goes, okay, like he has no idea what's going on.

So I'm like, fuck, okay, so. And Jefferson said he goes, I had the best time with you ladies. He was like talking about how much he loved being on the podcast. And he was like, you guys indulging me with my little day drinking. And I was like, you would just have a glassy, a little glass of white wine.

It was no big deal. And so he was, and it's so funny. It was in a little martini glass. Okay. And we asked, we were like, are you?

Is that a martini? He's like, it's a white wine. But he was so, so sweet. And he said that there's talk of the show moving possibly to New York. And if it goes there, you gotta go.

Like, so good. So then he has to go obviously.

“Like, he's got other people to see and shit to do.”

And I'm like, okay, so Maloney has gone to the stage with his friend. So I follow, I go up to the stage and he's gone. And I go, I go to the friend. I go to Christopher Maloney. Leave and he goes, yeah, I go, I go, oh no, I go.

I have the number one S.V. you podcast. He goes, oh my god, you want me to text him? And I go, you guys are friends. He goes, yeah, he was here to see me and I go, oh, no, that's okay. Like you're not gonna text to go.

There's a girl with a podcast that can come back, like, you know, like that's not happening. But it was like, I couldn't like be rude to Jefferson and like chase down Maloney. And it was so quick. But I'll tell ya. He looked great.

The butt was, he was standing in front of me. I saw his butt before I saw his full face and was like, it's him, like that's him. And really filling out those jeans and he was really nice and complimentary to the whole cast. And, you know, I heard him talk about where he lives in LA, it's not impossible that I could run into him again.

No, we will run into him again. He will do the pod. We will see him. Yes. You were in close proximity.

Yeah. Yeah. Who was he with somebody?

At first I thought he was, but they were two other friends of the same actor.

So he was alone. Got it. Wow. He went into the night. And then I, you know, I got out onto those treats after I left and was like scanning

everywhere, seeing if he was like, get into a black car. But I'm ready for a community. I'm ready for a community. You didn't miss it. That was what was supposed to happen.

Yeah. He was like, I could have touched him. He was so close. It was crazy.

But I had not felt that feeling.

Yeah. He looked really odd. And I, because he was like, just very, like, cash. And I just have not had that feeling of like, oh my God. Like, what do I do?

What do I say? I have to approach this, like, in a long time. So nice to know, I still, I can still feel, you know, that was good. No, my heart is beating so fast right now. Yeah.

Yeah. But I was like, it was so crazy. I go, wow, in profile, that guy really looks like Christopher Maloney. And then I was like, but it's, I guess I didn't anticipate me, like, seeing a big guy and going, oh my God, it's Maloney, like, it was the baldness, too.

Yeah. Like he was just bald and like, I, I just saw him in the doorway. You know, like, people were kind of in front and after the actresses were like, we saw you from this stage. I was like, this must be somebody.

I mean, this is kind of like when people are like, are you going to SNL, like for corner, or whatever I go, no, because I don't want to behave like sometimes it's like, you can't be desperate. You know what I mean? Like, your exact situations, everyone wants a thing.

“And sometimes that feeling is just too much to handle and you have to stay grounded.”

And it's like, you can't be a freak. And sometimes the freaks are rewarded. I'm sure. But like, I don't know. Totally.

And I was like, I mean, in my mind, I was like, gonna be like, I'm so sorry to bother you. I just have to tell you. Because like, I mean, I don't know if he even knows about our podcast. But I, you know, I had, I had a plan in my mind to win it. It's gonna be one of those where when he finally does it, it will be like, well, you've

said no forever. And he goes, what?

I would never have said no.

And it's like, yeah, yeah, he said no. His people. Yeah. So, yeah, that's my story. And what a night.

But damn, and yeah, and I, like, yeah, I posted a story. I have a, I maybe I'll put it on Maine or something. I have a great, I have a great pick of me, just me and Rod Nicholone. Jared's not the best photographer, but, you know, we got a cute little pick. Yeah.

Wow. Okay, I do have to, I do have a confession to make you, guys, and I, you know, I, like, I actually ended up not really doing St. Patrick's Day yesterday, so I apologize for moving the fall.

“Wait, I, because I saw on your stories that you had an early one, and that's really”

fun. I did, because Julia was leaving town, and I made her feel so guilty and bad that she would leave me. And she was also like, please, I like, we don't really even do this. How, like, why are you acting like this?

And then I have receipts. I go, oh, like, when Lane-Maine Corn Beef, and you did, I go, how dare you say we don't do this holiday? So, she felt so bad that she went to Soul Cycle with me. We went to Corner Beast.

It was like also a gorgeous day in New York City. Yeah. It was like, in the 60s, but, or maybe 50s, but we sat outside, and then we went to Iran, our favorite Irish place. And then I had this one.

Oh my god. This is New York Friday, seven o'clock drinks at a steakhouse, eight o'clock Korean barbecue, 10 o'clock karaoke, 12.45 a spot, 2 a.m. a spot, like, I was performing fully wiped out. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. I got a text from the friend group I left from karaoke, being at 145 going, where are you at? And I said, I am still waiting to go up. Oh my god.

So I like party, and you know, and this is the thing, like, I'm at Soul Cycle with High Schoolers, and I'm like, I am 38. I started drinking at seven o'clock. I missed, I mixed four lickers. And I'm fucking here spinning, bitch.

I was just like, I felt really good about myself. But then Julien, I went straight to St. Patty's. So I was like drunk, and then I'd arrest before my next one a.m. spot. Oh, my god. No, but I kept wanting to party, and everyone was like,

well, I have a job. Like, what do you mean? Like, nothing was clicking. And I was like, am I just going to get blacked out alone in the neighborhood? And then I went to get a coffee at 10 a.m.

And I go, you know, I thought I was going to party today. And the girl goes, I mean, it's still pretty early. Yes. I think this could turn around, but I made it by lunch. [LAUGHTER]

But this is what I did. So basically, I do have a, it's not going to be the Maloney. I do have a list. It all is kind of connected. Also Casey, it's so funny.

So my hairdresser, Lacey's been doing my hair in color and cut for like a decade. I would say over a decade. And she said the same thing you did.

She goes, Lisa, I've never heard you say you read a book.

And I'm really proud of you right now. [LAUGHTER] These people are saying that. Like the streets are saying that. But I finished the eighth one.

I didn't know what to do. And then I actually, I hope you're a listener. I ran into a girl who came to my grandma's show at the park.

“And she goes, you need to read this book.”

And I went and bought it. But it's love letters to a serial killer. And it's really fun. I'm into it. Really?

Yeah, I'm only like 50 pages in. But I was like, scared that nothing but gay hockey would like get me to read. But I found murder. No, now it's a muscle.

Now it's a muscle that it's working now. Yeah, you can do other stuff. Well, no, guys, sorry. But people have been DMing stuff that you should also read. Like go about gay FBI agents once somebody said something.

I need it. Because I bought a straight book. And it just wasn't doing it.

“I like couldn't read the straight romance.”

But this one has a murder element. And she's like writing to this murder and I do enjoy it. But I needed this. I need gay FBIs. You need this.

Okay. Yeah, I'll forward it to you. I definitely need that. But whatever. So I have so many.

So anyways, I've just been like out and about. And it's mostly heated rivalry related. But Connor stories V-man magazine. I don't know what that is. But it came out.

It was supposed to come out. This is 16th Sparns in a lot. So I'm on it. I'm showing, they go, we don't have it. We don't know when magazines come.

It's per the distributor. Like they were stressed. You could tell Barnes and Noble was stressed. So I start calling magazines shops. I'm calling all the places in New York.

I try to get this magazine.

So then one guy finally is like, come tomorrow morning.

Just please come tomorrow morning. So that's the same Patrick's day. So I'm up at like eight there. I'm like, let's go. So you are partying.

You're tracking out a magazine. So you are partying a little bit. So I do on the fucking case. So I guess it's so good. I get to the story.

I'll take three and then I give him money. And he goes, why don't you do five? I go, I don't need it. He goes, you could sell it. I go, that's not my spirit.

And then I go, and then I go, like, how's it been or what's going on? And he goes, you people are driving me crazy. Like, they're bringing back print media. That's a slur.

You're only talking about women. You're basically mostly talking about women. And then I go, I'll take a fourth one. I go, okay, 'cause I'm gonna even know my knees, whatever.

I just, I'm surprised they didn't put a limit on it. Like, the prince is dying to be any baby. I don't where I worked. We were only allowed to buy one. No, he wanted me to buy more.

And then he gave me, he's like, well, let's fold it. I go, excuse me, he goes, it's okay, right? I go, absolutely not. And you said, there's, why are you doing that? And then he's like, oh, and started opening a new box.

He was like pissed, but I got the magazines. But then, so I went to go get another book. And I'm in, like, materials neighborhood. This is like, and in my, my God, I go, oh, I should see if he wants to do breakfast.

And I was like, oh, whatever, it's same Patrick's there. I think I have to do something else. So then, I go to the bookstore. I got recognized at the bookstore. The one of the guys who works there goes,

I hear you on Sidney and Marie's podcast. I love their podcast. And I heard Mateo call you. And he mentions Mateo. One minute later, Mateo calls me.

Like, can you believe that what? And he goes, hey, we're filming something and a bunch of people are late.

“Can you like rush over and do something real quick?”

And I went, okay. So like, that felt kind of serendipitous and psychotic. Yeah. Mateo, Mateo, and then it happened.

So like, that was really fun. But so we just did a thing. But I got my magazines and I just loved the way, the guy. Oh, but then, for St. Patrick, then my road agent, no big deal, Ryan, was like, hey, my mom's flight got fucked.

I have Broadway tickets. You want to come see a show? And I went, I guess this is all meant to be on a flight. Oh, well. So I saw a show called Stranger's Carrying a Cake in New York.

Oh, cool.

I never heard of a cross in New York.

A cross I had to look at the magnet I bought. But of course, you bought merch. Was it good? It was lovely. It was like sweet romantic.

I love the set. They're very, very talented. I don't think those songs are like hits or whatever, but it's good. I laughed. I was into it. And I think people are into romance vibes.

So like people were like, oh, yeah, I'm kind of fun. And I had a great time and just like any, you know, it's like, it just feels cool to be in New York and be able to go to a Broadway show last minute. You know what I mean?

That is cool. And I was next to two team girls. And there was a Harry Potter joke and the way they got that one. No, but, okay. So before I bought my eighth gay hockey book and I finished it,

so I go to Barnes and Noble. And I'm in line with it and a man budgets me. But you know, like, I'm like Sephora, like there's items on the sides. So you're just, you're looking.

But a man cuts me in line. But I'm like, I love that. I don't have heard that before. I only hear you say that. What?

Budging. Budging? Yeah, like someone budges you. It's like, is that you say that to Kate? That's a Midwestern thing.

Yeah, like I never heard that before really.

And except you said, I know you said it before. It's a huge cut. That is like you're cutting me, but just like, I just nudged in front of you. But it's not nice.

No, it's like an old guy and I'm not in a hurry. So I was like, what happened? Then a second man cuts me in line.

“So then I'm like, okay, what's like, am I invisible?”

So I go, okay, sir, like, what's going on here? I'm in line. Why is everyone going in front of me? It's Neil Patrick Harris. He turns around.

(laughs) Wait, what? At Barnes and Noble? Yeah. And are you friends with him?

From now on. So I go, oh, hey, I met you backstage at your play. And he goes, okay, I just, I thought you were looking at the items. I go, I know it was just like,

you were the second person to budge me. It just was kind of crazy. And he went, okay. And then that was it. (screams)

'cause then I left and then I ran into John early at the farmer's market. It was really, it's really been like, I guess a, a who's who of adventure when you leave the house, you know what I mean?

“I got 19,000 steps, I think two days ago.”

She's just trying to get a comfort. Why the amount of the hard to get 10? Wait, no, I do have to say when it is a heated rivalry thing. But remember when I was first raving about it, I mentioned how I love his progression of English

and how like it's, 'cause they shot it out of order. So I was like, the fact that his English gets better

and how he knows words is like so incredible.

And so I saw an interview with the script supervisor. And I guess they didn't realize, I knew it was about continuity and script stuff. And I remember the script supervisor and survival being like, you need a jacket

you're coming from outside. But I didn't put it together. But it's her that would be like, 'cause in the book when he gives Shane his room number, he goes 1221.

And I noticed in the show he goes 1221. And I was like, I wonder what that was. And it was the fucking script supervisor. She's like, your English is too good. She's like, it's too early.

And say 1221, you would say 1221. Yeah, and I was just like, holy shit. It was someone's fucking job and they did a good job at it. And I did notice it.

And it was just cool that I caught that interview and I feel like that's so script supervisors

are like the people that are like me on this podcast

looking for the holes. Like you, I'm like, what would I be good at that job?

“Like you have to be like, wait a minute.”

That doesn't really make sense because you're coming from a totally different place. Like, no, I had the wrong impression. I was like, they're the nerds who want me to be scripted perfect and I don't want to.

Like, in my head, I'm like, get away from me and I'm gonna say whatever I want. That's what interesting that they have to have, like the whole does, it makes you think. It's just really cool that, like the, that good.

I mean, also we didn't even mention the fucking Oscars we're already at a half hour. This is a nightmare. I know. I just, with Ryan Kougler, it's like with him,

it's like the team, it's the people together. It's everyone working so hard, it's everything. And then everyone talking about him in such a beautiful way.

And I'm just like James Cameron, you suck, right?

Like no one thinks you're nice. And it's like you can make great things and also be beloved and nurture other people's talent. And I just love him. - Yeah, Ryan Kougler is the Mercco Hergatea,

I would say, of the movie world. And like, I would be devastated if someone comes out and is like, he doesn't, he is mean to me at the laundromat. Like, I don't know, like I'm gonna be,

he's just so, like he gives me hope. And I'm gonna watch sinners because now it's too much. Now I gotta watch it. I'm gonna watch it. - And that weapons one, that's like a big worry.

That's like fucking cool. - I love, I mean, I love a, I love a, I love a, like a later in life, Hollywood, like she's been working for so long, give her some flower, like I love that.

- Would they need me mad again? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I think that's great. I also like boys love bodies doing the lights. Well, Leo looked hot.

'Cause I watched it liveies and like at the same time we looked at each other and we were like, whoa. And Allison's like, he still does it for me. And then I was with other people and everyone was just like, like, he did something or he's getting ready for something

'cause he looks fucking good. - He looked, you know what? I've said on this podcast, Leo doesn't do it for me. - Yeah. - I've said on this podcast. When they came to him during the Rose Burn thing,

when he was like, no, I was like, why does he look hot? Like he did look good. He's like, de-puffed or something. - Well, the rumor is 'cause he's gonna shoot a,

a Scorsese movie with Jennifer Lawrence. And she's so hot. - Somebody told me that Scorsese retired. Casey, also Scorsese, PTA and who's the other one. They all won their best movie Oscars with fucking Leo.

Leo gets people Oscars, he's their muse. - Yeah. - Oh, and James Cameron for Titanic. Like, he fucking gets you Oscars. He's so good.

No, Connor, and Hudson looks so good and I bought new sheets and I bought brown sheets 'cause he was wearing brown. I was like, maybe I'll just do brown sheets. - No, they looked like complimentary

and they're like sheer numbers that they were. I had some friends that went to those parties and it's just so funny 'cause everyone's like, it's really just a lot of celebrities waiting around in lines. Like, it's people.

And like, everybody gets these parties afterwards and they, my friends sent me what they had underneath the seats and it's like a bogus bag of skinny pop and a water bottle, like these people are starving. Like, they get to these parties afterwards.

- But then they get to go to the Chateau for like Beyonce or like Madonna's parties. - Yes, that's like a crime. - Yeah. - Oh, yeah, the guy Oh, Siri party, yeah.

- Oh, I have one more thing I'd like to plug. I went to a party at club coming for underdogs. It's an audible show, Drew Anderson and Marshall Belky. - Oh yes, they've been working five years.

“Like, I remember the day they both told me”

they got this deal that they're starting to write it. Alan Cummings and it'd be new Earth. But young young actors, like early 20, maybe teens, that's saying and they were one of them brought me to tears.

and it's about like the kids in a school who don't make the play and then they make their own like play. It's called Underdog. - Did I love that way? When does it, is it out already?

- It's out, it's out, it's out, it's out on audible and it was like the live show was so fun

and then Natalie Walker who's an incredible singer.

- She's yes.

“She always says she's funny or you should keep following her.”

- Why have I heard from her? Maybe she still did. - But on her high school vibes, she was like, I played Fontaine and Lame is, but I was such a theater girl that I, you know, I would need to know how she died

and since it was syphilis, while I sang the last song, I started going blind and so she sang as her high school self, like going blind from syphilis as she sang. And it was like, I mean, it was like the best and I don't, yeah, so if you guys want to do that,

it was an incredible show and then Julia listened to it already and said it was so fucking good. So obsessed. - Does it remind me? - I haven't listened to it, but I can attest that Drew Anderson

and Marcia Belski are two of the funniest people so talented. - So, go listen. - And they love musical theater.

It's basically if you love musical theater,

like you will love this. - Oh my God, I feel like a lot of our listeners will be into this. - All right, this was long. I mean, this was really a lot of name drops too

if that's something you'd love about what we do. - It's also a week and I went to randomly see this play.

“How could I ever have known I was gonna cross paths with that ass?”

- But what else, I can't believe, well, it's funny 'cause I've made a friend host and then I came late and then I had to leave early for a spot and then everyone goes, we wouldn't have watched it. You forced this upon us, why are you doing this?

And I went, I'm sorry. - Yeah, I watched it at another comedian's house and we just, I love filling out the ballets 'cause I'm actually pretty good at the ballets, even in like sound editing and crap like that.

I'm just like kind of good at guessing what's gonna go. - Oh, and also casting was really exciting and I'm so glad that she got to like rib PTA too. - Yeah, it's like crazy. - But I had to leave before the big,

I had to leave before all the big announces, unfortunately 'cause it's like, it was like seven o'clock and I had to get my kids to bed but like I was really happy for all the people, I guess. There were that many disappointments.

Best supporting, I was like not that down with Sean Penn when I was a kid. - I know, I guess what? - He's in fucking Ukraine was Zelensky and gave him the Oscar, like he's like, oh, okay. - I know, we all hate him and he's like in fucking Ukraine.

I was talking shit about him then someone goes,

“"I think he's in Ukraine doing humanitarian aid."”

And I went, well, okay, I think he still beats with me. - Okay, not two things, two things can be true. (laughing) - No, I was gonna say, did you see Wendy? What's her name?

Not McLevin, what's her name? Wendy McLevy. - McClendon, coffee? - Did you see why she didn't make it to the Oscars? - Yeah, she goes, I gotta, I gotta necklift

and I'm sick of looking like a melting candle. So that's where I am.

- Because there's no bad love, I mean, she's incredible,

but that's what everyone was thinking, like where the fuck's our bitch? Like where the fuck's our girl? But that was really fun, love her, love her, love her. Before we get started, I just also wanna mention

that exactly writes, "Webstore is having a spring cleaning sale that starts this Thursday, March 26th. You can use the code ERM spring 26th for 20% off site wide. There's some exclusions, I guess.

But there's a last chance section. So, you know, just, you can go get our lowest Louise. Lewis T-shirt that I love so much and we have some other random leftover merch up there so you can go grab that stuff at exactly rightstore.com

or the link is in our bio and at that's bestuplive.com. Where you can also find Lisa's tour schedule and all of our other pertinent links. All right, let's get started. We've got, I mean, nothing short of a fantastic episode

today. (upbeat music) - All right, Tommy's, we're doing reasonable doubt. Season 15, episode 22, May 7th, 2014. AKA the Bradley Whitford episode.

- I'm thrilled. - And we've talked just some Anthemathas who's in this. We talked to her about it with a different episode. She's a hero for you.

I remember. - I love her. - Yeah. And so we start off and it's an old-timey musical. I think it's an A track or something

and it says New York, Hustle, 70's font, green and orange, you know, that perfect 70's color. And they sprung for Earthwind and fire. Book you wonderland. - Oh yeah, it is but you wonderland, yeah.

- So that's pretty huge. Full disco everyone's dancing, colorful floors, short shorts. We follow a blonde, curly-haired woman and a pimp and they walk over to a drug dealer

and then she truly gets underneath in the middle of the club and is about to start blowing this man. And then she sees a badge and screams. He's a cop.

He's a pig and starts running. Huge gun situation.

cut, cut, cut, we're acting. And the actor and the leather is pissed about the cut and then Bradley would furred runs out. He's the director, he's named Frank and he's pissed too. He's like, how dare you fucking not call me

for first team rehearsal and then someone's like,

dude, we were behind but you would never do a rehearsal

without a director. That would be psychopath like, yeah. - It wouldn't even happen without me. - You know what I mean? Like, it just wouldn't even happen.

So I'm not on Frank's side but I get Frank being like, what are you guys doing, but not yelling like that. Then he gives off very much manager of a restaurant who's never there but then shows up to yell at people about things that don't actually matter.

So you basically go, well, now you're gonna be further behind 'cause this is all wrong. Rose is a whore, what is this pink? And then rubs the actress's lipstick off her mouth to innocent and then calls that different actor a moron

says, can you pretend you're straight for once and take her like a man and then he grabs the actress and takes her and starts making out with her and then says you were so hot last night we're surrounded by idiots.

He screams, you gotta make her want it. I need it raw.

More smoke, more smoke, second blow, second blow.

You know what sucks, the costume's fucking suck. They're not the red shorts I picked and they're like, you said bright red. He goes, I said crimson and then he runs out and he yells about the car, the car's too shiny.

Then he threatens to kill off someone's character and then a woman in a ballet flat and tight ass jeans, you know what year it is. And she goes, I don't think we can kill him and he goes, it's cable who gives a shit.

“And then threatens more deaths, see, oh, you go, you know what?”

How about I write a death scene where you're also questioning your sexuality. So you're gonna question your sexuality, have gay sex and then die. So that's the worst death ever for an actor.

Not just to die, but to die, maybe gay. So then Donalogue, Donalogue. You know what's crazy?

So I was like, talk, I was like thinking about him

while I was writing this. And I was like, God, what a dream guest. I hope we can get him. Why hasn't he done the pod? And then I remember he did the pod.

He did the pod. He was done the pod. We've truly, like, and then I remember I was talking and stuff, but I forgot. Like, we just had so many guests.

And I was like, I can't believe we did talk to Donalogue. Well, you know, Rollins, baby daddy, undercover, hottie, truly, I wrote in the notes. I wrote truly one of my dream guests. Wait, I just realized and remembered we talked to him.

Oh, my God, Benson's there. And the view of the city is so pretty. And they want to talk to Frank. And he's like, LOL. And they're like, it's about your daughter.

And he softens and he goes, it's Chelsea OK.

“And Benson goes, well, that's what we're trying to figure out.”

And he immediately goes, oh, what? Is this about my ex-catherin? And it's like, why don't you focus on your daughter? The NYPD is there because of your daughter. And your thing is immediately like, I'm being set up.

What did Katherine do? And it's like, why are you jumping to that verse? How is my daughter? Yeah. To me, it's like, your guilty, whatever this is,

whatever happens, I know you're fucking guilty, because that's a crazy response. Donald goes, yes, let's talk and private. He goes, what's she accusing me of now? And it's like, what if she got into a car accident?

What if she fell in the playground? Like, why are you assuming it's an act? Like, I don't understand. But, and then like, Donald is wearing sunglasses, Murphy. But you could tell he's looking at this guy like your fucking scum.

But he goes, it wasn't Katherine. It was Chelsea's pediatrician. And he thinks that she may be a victim of sexual abuse. And again, it's about him.

“Not, oh my God, what happened to her is my daughter, okay?”

It's straight. So Katherine said it's me. And then he's scoffs and goes, you're wasting your time. I'm in a custody battle and my wife's out of her fucking mind. And you can talk to my lawyer.

And it's like, you still have not asked who, like, what if it was someone else abusing her? Yeah. Why are you asking what the pediatrician found? I mean, I think it's accurately portraying what a mess this is.

That like, everybody's just paranoid and going at each other. And nobody's actually thinking about the best interest of the child at all. Yeah. Yeah.

So now it cuts to a video of a young redheaded girl. And she's on tape answering questions. So Barba, Amaro, and Rollins are watching at the DA's office. Do you think the DA and cops watch these offices and go, wow, we wish our office look that nice?

Like, do you think they're pissed at how nice? They're like teen seasons are because they feel

And they're like, yeah, definitely. Really, it's very modern now.

“Because when I went to one pp, it felt like shit.”

It looked like shit. Looked like shit.

So basically, this little redheaded cutie,

she's like, you know, he said that I spilled ice cream on my dress, but he spilled the ice cream. And we went to the laundry room and he took off my clothes. And then, 'cause he had to clean them, but then he sat around the washing machine

and said it was fine the way it moved and he held her. And she's A and the prompter of the questions is her mom, Katherine Summers, who's an actress divorcing this husband. And the reason they're getting a divorce is because Frank left her for her younger sister,

Rose, who is a teenager. So, and the whole episode, they're like, Katherine's stopping so upset. Like, you dump it, just get over it. Like, no one seems sicker

that he's dating an 18 or 19 year old at this point. That like, everyone's just like, Katherine's such a pill. Why won't she get over it? And no one's like, why did you feel like,

why did you take the team?

“Why did you ever, like, she's jealous, she's jealous.”

This is like, so, I'm gonna get into it later with the real crime, you know? Yeah, you will.

Okay, so basically, you know, he dated her,

he left for the team's sister. And now the team's sister is the arc. So like, that blonde, curly, haired woman that you saw him kiss on set is a teenager. And yeah, so that's that.

Now, Katherine made the video and there are multiple time jumps. So that's, of course, suspicious to like a Maro and Rollins 'cause they wanna defend him. And then Barb is like, great, a high profile mess

with a bunch of ego and like a divorce, get ready for the media circus. Okay, circus, come into town, credits. He's in woodroom blinds. And Jeffrey Tambor is his lawyer who, I think,

Ms. Conblett, harassment. Yes, he's had a harassment. He's had a, he's been canceled. I would say due to harassment, bad behavior, on sets, et cetera, et cetera.

But he is in this episode and he is the lawyer. And Frank is like, yeah, I'm an asshole, but I'm not a pedophile. This is all Katherine. And then Murphy's like, well, you did fuck her little sister

and he's like, well, we're in love. And the lawyer starts talking about punishing the pediatrician for a false report. And it's like, no, we need doctors reporting. Like, you cannot sue the doctor for like,

I would rather doctors go above and beyond and be wrong about abuse instead of letting it fucking go. Right. And then since like, okay, we just need your side

“about how we, you know, that's how we're gonna start.”

So you weren't Chelsea, we're together at your ex-wife's apartment. And he goes, yeah, I'm her father. And the Tibetan nanny was there. And it's like such an old person thing to like,

why wouldn't you just say nanny? Yeah. So weird. That's like cool, but I don't get it. So her Sunday nanny was there.

Benson says Chelsea said you played perverted games. And he says nope, Catherine told her to say that. Catherine's borderline. She has cats, bunnies, 16 straight dogs, she's nuts. And Murphy's like, okay, so yes or no, did you assault your daughter?

And he says, if I wanted to assault my daughter, why wouldn't I wait to get custody? And then have her to myself. And it's like, you're a pedophile to even think that. Yeah.

I don't think they do that. Like, if someone says like, you're a pedophile, you would go, that's disgusting. No, I'm not. This is fucked.

You don't go, I mean, if I was a pedophile, don't you think I would have done it like this? Wouldn't I have been smarter? Yeah, I need to do it. But if I did, the OJ book, yeah.

It's so strange to me all these ants. And he does it a few times throughout this episode. And the lawyer says, that's a no. And Benson's like, so what happened? And he goes, we were playing chess.

And they're like in the laundry room. He goes, I don't go in the laundry room. No, no, no. There's spiders in there. Everyone knows I'm scared of spiders. And it's like, okay, the detectives go to meat barba.

A marwan Murphy are like playing like a dick competition games. And like peacocking for Rollins and everyone's like wanting to fuck Rollins. But they say like, the dude didn't deny anything really. And he used distance in language.

And he never said Chelsea's name or looked at her photo.

And had an answer for everything. And again, did not deny it. And Benson's like, go to the apartment, talk to the nanny. Make sure she's from Tibet. And then talk to the ex-wife, the daughter, the son.

There's a son like, let's go. So we need a warrant for the laundry room though. Everyone's good adults. Rollins stays to talk to Murphy. And she, of course, is like there to defend a man.

And she goes, Frank does hate spiders. It's like, why the fuck do you know that? So now we're at a big white house. And Samantha Mathis is holding a gorgeous husky puppy. Holy shit.

which I guess for a father is okay, but for a pedophile not okay. So Amaro pets the dog. And then they need Chelsea to talk. But that's why she made the tape. And they're like, well, to pursue the case.

And she stops them, like, I don't want to pursue it. And they're confused. But like, the state can do it with out her as well. And we can also like tell child services, what's up. And she screams, I'm a good mother and I love my daughter.

And Benson's like, right, exactly. So let me talk to Chelsea. We all need to keep her safe. And she does agree. So they're at a long dining room table.

She does keep looking at her mom before she talks. But also this is like huge and scary. So maybe she wants to be with her mom.

She's an incredible actress.

She looks so sad. But she says her and her father play pretend cops and bad girls. Okay, disgusting. Every time she talks, she looks off to her mom. And she says that her dad said if I can memorize a story

and lines, I can be in one of his shows. Amaro's like, you know, the difference between truth and pretend. And they do this to every fucking child. And she says, mm-hmm. But not very convincing.

And they want the mom out of the room. She doesn't want to leave. And Benson's like, well, be good. Get the fuck out of here. And the mom rub is Chelsea's shoulders on the way out.

And Amaro walks her way. If Amaro told me to go anywhere, I'd go. Like, I don't understand why she's arguing. Like, go with Amaro. Benson's like, okay, we saw the video.

You and your mom made that was real or pretend. And she, and that's like such a great way

to ask Benson is amazing.

And she says it's real.

“And she's like, did your mom ask you to remember lines?”

And she goes, no, she told me to say what really happened. And I trust this little girl. So Amaro and Katherine are talking. And the nanny led him into the house, not her. And she was at a matinee with her sister, Davis.

And this is not Rose. She's not speaking to Rose, obviously. That's the one with Frank. This, Davis is a middle sister. And she's visiting from Oregon.

She's not famous at all. And he asked the question about Frank and Katherine Nell's back, Frank does what Frank wants. She explains that, of course, there's a set schedule. But he doesn't pay any attention to it.

Amaro is so smooth and sexy. I would truly give him my social security and pit number in a heartbeat. And I can't believe we talked to him. Great guest, great guest, good face.

So she's like, oh, he's got my pit number. I already gave it. I chatted it to him during the interview. [LAUGHTER] I was like, just keep this just in case.

Wayne, have this. OK, so how this all started is Chelsea sat her vagina, her. And Amaro is like, is that your words are hers? And she goes hers. I took her to the doctor.

So then Finn is there. And Finn is with the nanny. And he goes, bitch, I know you smoke. Were you smoking? And she's like, fuck, yeah.

It's my one vice and Mr. Maddox understands. And so he let me go smoke. And the nanny has no good answers, but saw them come out of the laundry room. And Chelsea had her dress on.

But it was unbuttoned. And she went in their wearing tights. And then when she came out, she was wearing no tights. So he definitely let her out to go smoke. So he can assault his daughter in the laundry room.

And she fucking saw the tights be gone. Like we all saw this. So Rowland's is with Daniel Disson. And they're playing with a basketball mini size, like a bedroom hoop.

And he was at the country house. So he was not there for this. And Daniel likes soccer and his dad does it. And he's like weird. And the dad doesn't pay attention to the sun at all.

And he thinks it's based on soccer,

but it's basically based on being a pedophile.

So Daniel said that his father says boys are dirty. And he like girls, and dressing them up. And making them do what he says. And Rowland goes, what? And he goes, yeah, Chelsea, Mom, Aunt Rose.

“So all of his little actresses, it's strange, right?”

And Rowland's is like, yeah, but it's his job. But it's fine, right? And he goes, yeah, I mean, he said Chelsea can be in his show. But not him, because boys don't play dress up. And Rowland's goes, how am I going to spin this to protect the man?

You know what I mean? He's like just sitting there being like, how am I going to invalidate this child? And then the boy continues that his nanny feels bad for him. And then we're at the precinct.

So Murphy's in the middle. He looks like a disheveled scientist, and he's like, the mom thinks the dad is an abuser. And the dad thinks the mom is crazy. What did the girl say?

And the girl said that her and the dad play the game. And he took off her dress, touched her vaginally and told her it was a secret. Like, what are we even fucking talking about? And Rowland's goes, well, is the mom credible? And Amaro goes, she's got some issues.

And Finn says, doesn't mean the girl wasn't abused. And Murphy says either way, she's upon in the game between these two. And Rowland says, yeah, and the stakes have just risen. Someone just leaked nude photos of Rose. So Frank took all these photos of Rose when she was 18.

And Benson says that she looks much younger than that.

“So it's like, are we arresting him for child abuse images?”

Amaro says this proves she is out to get him.

And so the Murphy goes, OK, then there's no point in sending you to ask her, huh? And I really, really love that. Finn and Rowland's go, and it's a media circus. The non-famous sister opens the door. Chelsea and Catherine are there.

But they send Chelsea off and Catherine's like, I'm so sick about this. But I guess it was bound to fucking happen.

I had a strict rule to never allow them alone together.

And so I set up nanny cams.

“And that's how she even saw the, like, about the Rose situation.”

And so Frank knew about the nanny cams. And knew there wasn't one in the laundry room. So Frank knows about them. That's how she found out Rose, and she's trying to protect her daughter, Chelsea. And I believe Catherine and Catherine points to the press and goes, look at all these

fucking vultures. And she's like, Frank did this. He did this to humiliate me. And I'm instead of TMZ, they call it LMZ, LOL. But they only have print copies of the photos.

They can't get a JPEG. So if they had a JPEG, they could see when it's created. And she's like, you think if I had a JPEG, like, I wouldn't have used it in the divorce, you'd be sleeping in his test list, she says. So they go talk to Rose and she calls her sad.

And she should let go. And Benson's like, let go that her sister and husband are sleeping together. Like, without the teenager thing, that would still be grounds to not speak together. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

And so they're on set. And Frank told her that their level would cost her relationship with her sister. And that's just what happens with older siblings.

At first, it's all about them.

“And then the younger sister throws them out of orbit.”

But she hopes that one day she can move on with time. So we're in cement room bars. I mean, she's going to turn 31 day and realize that she was groomed. And it's going to be really hard for her and therapy. But Frank thinks this is ridiculous.

And when he brings up his fiance, Murphy and Dorepsome and goes, well, your fiance graduated high school last year. And Benson says that his hair was found in the laundry room of his ex-wife's apartment. He goes, sure. I'm sure my hair is everywhere.

All over my clothes, her clothes, everywhere. And they go, not that type of hair. So it's a pub. He goes, I'm sure Katherine planted it. Like, she's obsessed.

And he goes, well, your fingerprints were all over the laundry machine, too. Did she plant those? And he's like, fine, I admit it. You know, I was there. And it's like, I thought you were scared of fucking spiders.

So it cuts to Rowland. She's at home. She's with her dog. And it's like a really long shot of her just with the dog. And I really like it.

And it's cute. And then she's watching her oldo Rivera. I talk about the case. And they're talking, Frank, Catherine, pedophile, yada, yada, yada, revenge. And then a maro comes out in a fucking towel. Abs, arms, back.

Oh, I've been waiting for this episode. I mean, I think what episode is that? Where he's in the towel? Yep. Here we go.

We really, we so rarely get gifted in S.V.U. Like a hot bod that's not murdered or in trouble. Or really being trapped on. Yeah. So it's just so nice to see him in a towel.

And he goes, yep, Frank is firing back. Murphy was right. And he says she's manipulating the kids. Catherine and Chelsea show up to set. And it's like, babe, can you leave your daughter at home?

Like, leave her at home? Why are you bringing her here? She's going to be so embarrassed. Like, she's embarrassed. She was like, she's excited by her father.

And now you're like, do we miss weird things? So, and Catherine's crying and Rose goes, are you drunk?

And she goes, I've never been more clear headed in my life.

And Rose says we should talk. And then we see Frank's in the back. And he makes a like a symbol with his hands to like start rolling. So now they're like taping Catherine having this like full mental breakdown, which is warranted. And she's like, Frank took her into the laundry room and sexually abused her.

And she's pointing at Chelsea.

“And it's like, so the whole set, you have to point at the child and be like, she was abused.”

This makes no sense of all these people and you're taping it. It's like so fucked up. Yeah, the dad's taping it. The mom's doing it. These are, this is very much like they hate in penitair abuse episode of like these narcissists

already parents. And so, um, and now, okay, so then now Frank goes behind Chelsea and rubs her shoulder. And Catherine puts her hand to her face and shock. Chelsea looks uncomfortable and upset. She goes, mom, can we go, please?

And she's about to cry. And this little girl again, best sad face of her scene. And there's a long line of sad face actresses of this, of this series. And I will say she is top, she would be nominated for the sad face. Yeah, she's a good sad little kid.

I was looking around. And the squad is watching this on the laptop and it's like, so this is the woman concerned with her daughter's privacy, okay. And she busts in again with her daughter into the precinct and the non-famous sister. And leave the child at home.

Again, does the daughter have to go back to the police station? It's nuts. And then she wants to press charges, she's done, let's go all the way, something has to be done.

and then Chelsea's been video taped here.

“And basically, she's like, he touched me, he kissed me and, you know, she drew in a drawing”

that she made for Benson where he touched and kissed her. And I really like Barbara talking to kids. And then tambour lawyer, as name is Lester, hello, Lester the molester. And so he calls her a good girl, disgusting. I hate that.

And he's implying that the mom is telling her what to say and Katherine's now on the stand. And she's explaining how Chelsea came to her and said her vagina hurt and that daddy played with her down there and Benson's like staring down Frank. She hates him. And Katherine's like, yeah, the sucks.

I don't want this to be true. I don't, you know, that my spouse would do this, especially after sleeping with my teen sister and it's like objection relevance and it's like, hello, a pattern of being a pedophile. You weirdo, the judge allows it. He was her brother-in-law and knew her since she was a toddler.

The connection is obsession with both of them around the same age. And then she talks about grooming and then Lester says move to strike and alienated wife is not an expert witness and that is like a pretty sick line. So then Barbara does a good job, but now it's time for cross.

So he starts by saying that he was always a fan of her being an actress.

And he says like, you know, all the things are talking about with Frank hugs, kisses, tickles. That's normal. That's stuff. And she goes, sure, but I have a son. He never touches or plays with him.

“And he then implies it's revenge for this relationship and the relationship with Rose.”

And she's like, yeah, I hate him. I'm angry at him. This isn't like why I took, I took her to the doctor. Like I don't know why you're trying to connect this and there's no connecting. And the not famous sister is watching in the galley and he shows her a porcelain figurine.

She sent to Frank and it's a woman with her heart being ripped out and there's like blood all over. And it's like, okay. So she sent him a statue. Like I don't think it's that crazy.

She was left for her teen sister. Like I just don't understand why she's not allowed to be pissed. Yep. The way they're spinning this is so nuts to me. I'm sure she wanted revenge, but it doesn't mean she would do this to Chelsea, you know.

And he goes, but here we are. And it's like everyone is sad. But now the nanny's on the stand and she lies for Frank. She says that all day did was play chess and she talks about meditation. This is probably why they did the Tibet stuff.

So she meditates and she focuses on the present, not the past. And so she can't really attest to anything she said to Finn at all. And doesn't remember anything, the tights, nothing. Like, you know, she's like that girl loves her father. And now they're in the hallway and the non-famous sister goes, that's it.

Frank gets what he wants because everything's for sale. In Barbas, like, she's Tibetan for all we know. He talked to the fucking dolly Lama and it's like such a crux of this episode. So then Benson stops and goes, hold on.

What do you mean he always gets what he wants?

And she is like connections, fame, people bend the rules for him. And she's pissed. And that she, you know, that, like, Chelsea is in this type of situation.

“She's like, Catherine, what the fuck, why would you do this?”

And Catherine's like, well, what about me? And she's like, he made you a star. You actually believe that people can think that you didn't know what kind of man he was. And Catherine is stunned. The detectives in Barbas are uncomfortable to witness this.

And so now we're at work. There's so many character witnesses like, it sucks. Like, oh, he's the best. She's crazy. He's a national treasure.

And Rollins just doesn't see it. And Finn goes, he is guilty. Murphy asks to talk to Rollins alone in the office.

And basically, confronts her about her pick me vibes.

So why are you protecting Frank? And she's like, I don't like to see innocent men get railroaded. But then she brings up the music teacher. And that was Billy Porter. And he didn't do anything wrong.

So she's like, well, why are you even asking me? And he says you've had complicated relationships with older male mentors. Atlanta, Craig and she says what was so complicated with Craig and. And Murphy responds that they found a dead hooker in his bed. You tell me, and she's like, he was set up.

And then he says, probably, how about your dad? And she goes, yeah, he did a little gambling. He goes, he's getting to trouble. She says, yeah, but mostly with my mom who wrote his ass and nagged him until he had to leave.

And he asks if she has a blind spot when it comes to men in power. And she is pissed. She has a pissed off face and says nothing. If a dude, I casually fucked, then then impregnated me. Said this to me, I would murder him.

I don't know if she's been, yeah, I don't think he's impregnated or yet. I can't believe she fucked him after this. I would be pissed. Well, do you have an issue with men in power? I'm like, fuck, I'm kind of proves his point.

Like, she proves it like, oh, my God. All right, Frank's on the stand. He's like, I listen, the bitch is old. She's mad. She's old.

You know, she was my muse. And now she has to do old hagg parts. And it is what it is.

I'm a good guy. And you know what, Catherine, I know it's been hard for you. This is like really hard, but it's sad you had to drag Chelsea into this. I love my child and I would do nothing to harm her.

“And this is, you know, this charge is out there and that's the worst thing for me.”

This is bad for me. And he does a whole monologue about who plays dressed up with his daughter. She's a brilliant actor. She's playing a part that's just written by her mother. And that's the issue.

It's so rehearsed and then apologizes to Catherine Benson's scoffs. I can't believe there's no objection, but I guess we have to watch Bradley Woodford work.

Like, there's a reason he's here and he's like, I would never hurt my daughter.

And again, being weird, why would I risk everything that I've accomplished? Or I'm not a pedophile. So I would never do that, whether I've accomplished a lot or not. You know what I mean? And also, it's like nobody asks themselves that because they know they're not because

they've accomplished so much. They're not going to get punished. I don't think they're all worried about risking their accomplishments. They're worried. They want to see how far they can go a lot of the time.

Yeah. Yeah. So whatever, and he goes, I'm not a pedophile. Murphy goes fuck that, you know, that was great acting. That's better acting than any of his shows.

He fucking charmed them and Barbago's don't worry when I get done with him, it won't matter. And then Benson's like, "Mavis, the middle sister wasn't there. I'm going to go talk to her." So they go to Katherine's apartment.

She didn't want to go to court because she didn't want to keep hearing Frank's lies. So she was 12 when him and Katherine got married.

And then she sits down and after a few leading questions finally gets to like, "Hey, did

Frank do something to you?" And she says it doesn't even matter if he did. He's getting away with everything and Benson goes, "He doesn't have to. You love Chelsea, protect her. You can protect her in court on the stand."

And she's like, "So many lawyers can call me crazy and ridicule me. No thanks." And Benson's eyeliner is so perfect and awesome in the scene, smoldering. And then we see her on the new style program, "Mavis, the non-famous sister." I guess, yeah.

So she's wearing all red and she's doing an interview. She goes, "I've been dealing with this for 18 years." And she explains that when she was 13 that Frank gave her a part in one of his shows. And if she did well, she could do more because after she taped the episode, she was at a party at one of Frank's producers' houses.

And there was a bunch of famous actors there, a lot of attention. And right away, he's like, "You want to go in the hot tub?" And she's struggling to speak. Her eyes are getting glassy as she explains that he put his hands under her bathing suit and inside of her and then raped her and said how all this--and then he said, "All

my--all his leading ladies got their rolls this way." And she was 13 and believed him and Catherine loved him and he took care of her whole family. And she saw it happen with Rose and she tried to warn Rose, but Rose kept saying that her just jealous. And it's like, "Oh, I guess he's famous." I'm like, "No, I mean Bradley Whitford is hot, but like this guy is not hot."

I'm like, "You know what I mean?"

“Like why would--why would Maevis be so jealous of Rose?”

It's like such manipulation and stuff, but then--so basically, she also didn't want Catherine

to know and then Catherine didn't want to know. And then she says--she saw the photos of Rose and she found that and she's the one that leaked them. She's like, "I had to do something. He won't stop." He's hurting my niece and everyone just looked the other way. She's fully crying now. All those people that sat in silence and watched our Franks accomplices.

If you think talent negates responsibility, your justice guilty is Frank. And she doesn't want to be one of those people anymore. She didn't make it up. She didn't imagine it and he knows what he did and she says this looking directly into the camera. So now we're in Chambers and Lester's like, "Hey, my Duke can't get a fair trial and the judge

goes, "I don't care. Barbara's going to cross exam." And like we're doing it. And he goes, "Well, actually, I don't even think my client's going to be here." And she's like, "Okay, well, he could be found guilty and absentia." Like, "I don't give a fuck, but produce him. What where is he?" And he's like, "I don't think I can."

So he's fled the fucking country. And Barbara goes, "Well, I'm willing to wave cross and go straight to summation." And Barbara turns and says, "And I won't imply him fleeing

“his proof of guilt because that would be wrong." Right?”

So the trial is going on and now Amaro's in the office, Frank turned up and he's in fucking France. Rollins being a fucking idiot says the court has his passport. How did he fly? So he's rich, you dumb bitch, private jet, private jet, dual citizenship. So he has dual citizenship and Finn says life from Paris.

And yeah, he's doing an interview. He says they have a vendetta. Everyone's jealous of me. And it's like, "You are fucking your wife's teen daughter." I mean, sister, I all of it. Everyone, I don't know what to say. The sister, you molested the daughter, like, "What the fuck?" He goes, "A man can be accused with no evidence and vilified." And it's like, "Your pub was found.

You lied about being in the laundry room." And then Rose speaks and goes, "It's not true."

And Murphy goes, "Oh, this is a side-show nightmare." But we're back in court. He is found guilty and the press is, you know, going to be all over like the women. And so they're going to do an escort. So Murphy gets them an escort. They help him get into the, like, building, the apartment building. And Catherine thinks Benson. And it seems like legit. And she goes, and the Benson says, "Just take care of your daughter."

And she does a little interview while holding Chelsea's hand. Again, let the girl, I just,

I can't. So basically Catherine goes, you know, he's a convicted felon in the eyes of the

court. And we want privacy and Benson and Chelsea make intense eye contact while Benson talks shit about her family tragedy with Amaro. She's like, "Looking at the scroll while talking shit about her." So it's like, "If he's a peto, it's good he's gone." And if it's fake, then Chelsea lives with a full blown narcissist that told her to lie. And she says, "Either way, God help that child." And then it's like just a close-up of Chelsea's face with flashes from all

the media cameras on her little sat face. And that's Dick Wolf, baby. And obviously, I can't, I can't. I want to know what you have to say. Yeah. I swore that this girl, Chelsea, her, who's played by an actress named Claire Foley. She just seems so familiar to me, like I'd seen her in another SVU, but this is the only one she's done. But I'm looking out for her. I feel like she's going to, and she didn't hurt him. Yeah, she was really great. Okay. So obviously, very

obviously, this is based on Woody Allen. It's kind of wild that the show was on air for 15 years before they fucked with the Woody Allen stuff. Because all the Woody Allen stuff really went down previous to the show even coming on the air. But then I would say around the time of this episode,

“which is what you're again, 2014 is when a lot of stuff kicked back up. So I think that's why”

they're tackling it at this time. So Woody Allen, obviously, famed director, he was 45, every stepdaughter, and everyone's okay with it. It's crazy. Sorry to scream. But yeah, it's upsetting. Yes, yes. He was 45 and 1980 when he started dating Mia Ferro, who was 35. And Mia Ferro had previously been married to Frank Sinatra for two years. She had previously been married to a man named Andre Previn, and she had six kids with Andre Previn, three biological children,

three adopted, including Sunni Previn, who was adopted from Korea. Sunni's like background in Korea is like very like fuzzy. Like nobody really knows. Like she was apparently found on the street and then was taken to an orphanage. She doesn't really have a lot of memory about her mother,

but like she says Mia Ferro would always be like tell everyone your mom was a prostitute and like

tell everyone about your hard beginnings and like she didn't really want to do that because she didn't have those memories. But she it's it's a little bit weird because they don't really know Sunni's actual age. Like they can like sort of date it that she was between five and seven when Mia

“adopted her. And so I think they would say six, but like her age is a little bit like upford”

mate. So when Woody Allen and Mia Ferro got together, she adopted, she also had two adopted children, Dylan and Moses, who would even co-adopted in 1991. But they were previously adopted by Mia Ferro. So Woody Allen and Mia Ferro had one biological child together. Satchel, who is not known today as Ronan Ferro, who many people, including Ronan himself, joke is not actually Woody Ferro. Woody Allen's son and his actually Frank Sinatra's son to whom Mia Ferro was

briefly buried from 66 to 68. Even Mia Ferro herself told the entity fair, he could be Sinatra's

child saying they never really broke up. So they were clearly having like affairs after they were

like not married anymore. Ronan was born 1987, which was smack in the middle of her relationship with Woody Allen. And Woody Allen's like, I like to think he's my son. Is it possible he's not sure? Anyway, when Allen and Ferro got together, Sunni Previn was 10 years old. Like I said, her mother had adopted her from create age five or six. According to Sunni, they, they

“her and her mother were like oil and water. Like she doesn't remember feeling any maternal”

feelings from Mia Ferro. She has really nothing good to say about growing up with her as a mother. She says she and her adopted siblings were treated like maids. They did the shopping, the cooking, the cleaning and did a lot. They were really self-sufficient and just did like a lot of stuff for the family. And she doesn't speak fondly of her mom. I mean, she has said stuff like I'm grateful,

did not feel a lot of parental warmth from Mia Ferro and didn't feel like they had like a great

connection. Moses also later on described some of the treatment of himself and his siblings as a abuse. So it was not like, you know, she, all together, Mia Ferro has 14 kids.

“Yeah. And I believe four of them are biological and the other 10 are adopted. And she”

adopted a few kids who were like a couple of the kids. She adopted were blind or had other like health problems. And so she like one was paraplegic. So she was really like trying to adopt children that felt like were, you know, needed help. And that this was like a big passion of hers was adopting children. And, you know, three of these children are no longer living. One took their own life. Another died of heart failure, but Moses suggests that that was actually

self-inflicted from a pillow overdose and then Lark, one of her daughters died in poverty of AIDS-related pneumonia after battling addiction. So sadly, yeah, three of these children are no

longer alive. And then during Ferro and Allen's relationship, they never lived together.

They lived in apartments across Central Park for each other. Like she lived on Central Park West,

“he lived on Fifth Avenue. So Sunye claims that he was never like a father to her. He had no”

clothes at their house, not a toothbrush. He never adopted them. He is, in her mind, her mother's boyfriend. They, she said she didn't even know him very well and didn't like him. And then it wasn't until when she was in a 11th grade that they started going to Nick's Games together, which apparently was encouraged by Mia Ferro, who said that, you know, Sunye was shy and had like, you know, like, like they wanted her to get out a little bit more. And that he was always looking for someone to

go to basketball games with. So, apparently, because of her age thing and also because she has a learning disability that she admits to, but apparently in a lot of press, Mia Ferro would make it seem like Sunye was really, really mentally disabled. And she's like, she made me seem like, I mean, she uses the R word. She's like, she made me seem like that in the press all the time. And like, that's not who I am. I'm not like, I'm not like slow. I do have some spelling,

like, learning disabilities. Like, you know, probably just like, see, I don't know if she she specifies, but she's like, but I'm not like, this is a woman who went to college, went to grad school at Columbia. Like, she's like, I'm smart. You know, I don't, I didn't like, she classified me. She characterized me as like, you know, needing mental help for a lot of my life. And so when she does start hanging out with him, some of the accounts say she's 19 or 20, even though

she's in 11th grade. So, like, I mean, maybe she's been held back because of some of the, like, learning disabilities or something, but she's apparently 19 or so when they even first start hanging out going to the basketball games. Okay. And then at 1991, she's 21 and she's a freshman in college.

“So, that's what I'm just trying to like figure out the timeline here because I was really”

confused because freshman in college to me. I was 17 when I was a freshman, you're 17 or 18 usually, but she's already like 21 as a freshman in college, because I don't know, maybe she took time off, who knows. But that is when they started the affair. When she was a freshman in college, it was sometimes not ball. She says she came home from college. They were watching a movie. He

kissed her. She was like excited. She had never really seen him that way. And now she's, and now

she says she fell for him really, really fast. So, she's 21, he's 56. They're very vague quote unquote on one thing's turn sexual. Okay. So, what I find very strange is that in December of 1991, the affair with Sunni had already begun, that's when he officially adopts Moses and Dylan. And like he's telling Sunni, oh, things with me and I have been like over for a long time. Like we're really not, you know, we're going through the motions. We're not really in love anymore. And

like, why are you going through the motions of adopting these children if you are sleeping with their sister? Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's really weird to me. It's like, I would have pushed that off. I would've been like, oh, I can't sign right now. I don't know. Like he's like, and, you know, so in January of 1992, like right after he finalizes the adoption of these two other children of me of me as she me a pharaoh discovers a stack of polaroids in Woody Allen's

apartment of Sunni in which she is fully nude spread eagle, that he says later he took those pictures because she was interested in modeling. I don't know how many modeling agencies want to see full frontal in order to, you know, sign you. We have to rewatch that model doc and see if that was ever,

I don't, I don't fucking know what to say. But when she sees those pictures,

“Mia Ferro fucking loses it obviously. And she ended their relationship after it had been 11 to 12”

years. And again, Woody Allen and Sunni are like, but their relationship had been over for years, blah, blah, blah, blah. So there's all this family drama at the time over the Sunni and Woody Allen affair. Mia Ferro sends Woody Allen what is called a gut, what is referred to in a lot of the press as a Gothic Valentine, which is like a photo collage of the family and pins going through all of their hearts and a knife going through her heart. So that's kind of where they get the statue

thing from the episode. Okay. So she does send that. And she apparently kicks Sunni out of the house. She slaps Sunni a bunch of times her Sunni is a little bit freaking out because her dad is going to cut her off financially too. Like Andre Previn is like, you're dead to me. I'm not paying for college anymore. And Mia is telling Woody Allen that Sunni is suicidal, which Sunni says is not true

“at all. So I don't, I also didn't realize ever in all the coverage of this that I've ever read.”

That at the same time that this is all going on, Mia Ferro is actively acting in a Woody Allen movie called Husbands and Wives. Like they are on set finishing a movie together while this is all happening, which is what fucking nuts. Yes. So over that summer, like so now it's summer of 91, I got, oh no, sorry, summer of 92. Sunni goes to be a camp counselor in Maine, but she gets fired because she's not connecting with the kids, I guess. And she keeps getting phone calls from a man

claiming to be Mr. Simon, but it's Woody Allen's like codename, right? So he keeps calling her at camp. He says he was just calling her to make sure that she was financially okay because like her dad is cutting her off and like who knows if Mia's giving her money, whatever. So then this all is going down in January, right? And then the months after this is all just happening inside the family

“that this has been discovered. And in August of 1992, eight months after the first, you know,”

Polaroids are discovered. Mia Ferro alleges that Woody Allen has molested their daughter, Dylan, who is age seven in a crawl space in her home in Bridgewater, Connecticut. So, um, I mean, the the episode is really ripping it straight from the story. She makes a video, asking Dylan all these questions, and a video that a lot of people think is a smoking gun against Allen, but a lot of people think is proof that Mia Ferro coach this young girl about what to say.

And Allen, of course, thinks that Mia Ferro concocted this whole charge to get back at him for the Sunni affair. And weirdly, Sunni says in an interview many years later that she says that like she thought this thing with Woody was a fling. She was like, I thought I was going to meet somebody in college and like get a boyfriend. He was telling me to sleep with people in college. Like, I just thought this was going to be like a thing like I didn't think this was going to last,

but they were, they ended up just getting thrown together during the chaos of this molestation charge. So, and like spoiler alert, they're still fucking together today. It's been almost 30 years. So, the case is so chaotic, it's unfolding fast and furious in the press, in the court of public opinion, like a little over a week after Dylan's alleged abuse, according to Allen, two of Mia's lawyers, Allen Dershowitz and David Levitt floated to him the idea of how about a

five to seven million dollar reconciliation like payment. Just like a quick immediate confidential

payment to Mia and then we'll be done with this. And I guess that same day, he decided that he thought his kids were unsafe, being with this woman that was coaching them into saying things like that. And he sued Mia in New York State Supreme Court for custody of satchel aka Ronin Dylan and Moses saying they were unsafe with her and would be turned against him. I mean, I'm sure he got an alienation lawyer as we talked about in the episode, alien. But four days

two, it's as obscene, right? Yeah, Dershowitz is, I mean, he's all over the place. I don't think he's ever doing anything good. So, like, shit is just going down crazy. And so, four days after he sued for custody of these three children, he releases a statement confirming his relationship with SUNY, confirming its all true and that he's in love with her, which SUNY herself took her by surprise. She's like, we had not totally each other that we loved each other in that way.

But she said she wasn't loved with him from the first time they kissed. And I'm sorry, I like,

was it going to be a fling? Or I think where you love from the moment? Yeah, she said like because at the beginning he was saying, like, you know, like, I don't want to like hold you down,

“go be with boys from school, do whatever. And I think like every minute that they were together,”

she says she just fell so hard and fast for him. That had even kissing her the first time. She

knows how quiet and like introverted he is. And so it was such a big move for him to do that. That like made her interested. And then she was like, we were just so attracted to each other. Like, right, but even though she said not that none of that really existed when she was a 19-year-old high school junior. I don't know. I don't know what to make of any of this. There's like so many different fucking like things that they're all like saying they're positive about. So meanwhile,

the shit is going on with Dylan's assault, alleged assault. And the Connecticut States Attorney's Office is investigating that because it happened at this home in Bridgewater, Connecticut and like

Northwest Connecticut. So they investigated the allegation but they did not press charges against

“Woody Allen. And then Dylan was referred to the child sexual abuse clinic at Yale New Haven Hospital”

shout out to where my brother did his residency. And then in May of 1993. So this is from August to May. So like eight months later John Levinth all the pediatrician who headed the team at the clinic concluded that Allen had not sexually abused Dylan and that she was emotionally unstable and her mother had likely coached her influence to her testimony. So according to the report, Dylan statements were inconsistent and lacked spontaneity. They gave the impression of

repeating something learned. The report also mentioned that Dylan felt she had to solve her mother's problems. It also indicated that the relationship between Pharaoh, Dylan, and Satchel was very disturbed and required immediate intensive psychotherapy. I should also mention that there is a lot of talk that Mia Pharaoh sort of favored her biological sons versus her adopted daughters. So Dylan was just a couple years older than Satchel aka Ronin. And when he was born, there's a lot of

accounts that she was obsessed with him and that she kind of dropped Dylan and that Dylan was like upset that like her mom's attention completely went to the younger brother but that she would like lock herself away in her bedroom for like days at a time just her and Satchel aka Ronin like, you know, like breastfeeding him. I mean, she says she was like, she says she was just recovering from a tough delivery but I don't know. So there's an implication among some accounts that Dylan

would kind of do anything to earn back her mother's attention. I don't know if that's true. It's all very fucked up. Also, but like then Sunee says we were treated like we were treated like servants, like the girls that were adopted like we had to do all this like labor around the house and stuff. And so like I don't know who knows. I don't know. Maybe she's saying that stuff manipulated from Woody Allen. I'm literally you could this would be like this could be it this case could be

its own 10 part podcast pretty much. So if I'm not getting every single piece of information, it's because we are limited on time here and I don't have like a research staff. So a month after this report is given by the Yale New Haven Clinic, a in a 33 page decision, Judge Elliott Wilk questioned the work of the Yale Group calling it sanitized. He also denied Allen's custody request as well as any visitation rights with Dylan. So Woody Allen appealed a year later and he

lost that as well. And New York State child welfare investigators completed a second inquiry into the

case, concluding that quote, no credible evidence was found that Dylan had been abused or maltreated. So that's sort of like what happens with that a few years later, December 23rd, 1997, Woody Allen aged 62 and Sunee Previn aged 27 are married. And like I said, they have a quiet they have a little

“like quiet ceremony like I think courthouse and then they are still married almost 30 years later.”

They together have two adopted children because Sunee finds having biological children to be vain and egocentric. She has said so in 2013, so then it's 1997, this all like they get married and then it's sort of did die down for a while. Like people did not talk about this case a lot from for about 15 years. And then in 2013, Dylan spoke out to Vanity Fair and then in 2014, she did an op-ed in the New York Times. And in 2017, amidst a lot of the me too movement, she did another

op-ed in the LA Times where she was kind of like, wow, you guys are all really giving it to Harvey Weinstein.

consistent in my story for years? Like I've always said this is what happened. And basically

what she her account is that on this day in 1992, a ton of people are at the house, various siblings, brothers and sisters, a family friend, that family friends, three kids, the family

“friends, nanny, Mia's nanny, all these people are there. And I think Mia and her family friend”

go out shopping or something. And they leave, but Woody is there. And everybody knows that Woody is not allowed to be alone with Dylan because Dylan has said for a long time that people had noticed that he had a lot of attention towards her, a lot of doting behavior, bouncing on his lap. Like ways that he did not act towards his other children, his other adopted children, or his biological children, like apparently him and Ronin had a relationship similar to Mia and

Sunni's, like they were kind of oil and water, they never really clicked. And but he was super

superdoding on Dylan. And she didn't know he's like it. Okay. And so then the her claim is that on this day, when Mia is out and all these people are around, though, he brings her upstairs to this crawl space and tells her to look at the toy train set and put her on her stomach and that he touched

“her vagina. And she has said it interviews later. Yeah, like he touched my labia and my vulva. So that,”

like, whereas the episode gets into like a pub and all this other stuff, I don't think that that was ever anything that came up in this thing. But this is what Dylan's account is. And that he told her, if you are a good girl, you can come to Paris with me. You can be in one of my movies, like a lot of the same shit from the episode. So this is what she's saying happened. So then in 2018, her brother Moses comes forward with a blog post. And he's defending Woody Allen. And he's

painting a picture of a very sad childhood under Mia's roof, claiming that she was extremely moody and controlling. She often doled out huge punishments for minor infractions. Like she talks about, um, sorry, Moses talks about like his brother, who was quadriplegic being left overnight in a shed outside because of some little thing he did wrong. So, um, and in his blog, he says, quote, Mia told me that she was the victim of attempted molestation within her own family.

Her brother, my uncle John, who visited us many times when we were young, is currently in prison

on a conviction of multiple child molestation charges. My mother has never publicly commented on

this or express concern about his victims. And quote, so I mean, Moses's blog is like really interesting because he talks all about how he's like, there were so many people in the house. We all knew that Woody was not allowed to be with Dylan. We would have noticed if they walked off together. We were all watching movies. Like he was there. He walked in and out. He went to go take a walk. I saw him the whole time. Like he's acting like this didn't happen. And then there's,

but there's all kinds of like different accounts from like nannies and friends and people that were there saying they saw them come out of the crossbase or that whatever he's saying, we didn't even have a toy train set in the crossbase. The crossbase didn't even have a floor. Like it's like it's like insulated filled with spiders. Like it's like filled with mouse droppings. It's like a place where we would hide and shit. It's like where my mom source her old clothes. It's not really like

where you would go play with someone. So I don't know. He has all these. And then you know, of course, Woody Allen has put his own op-eds in the New York Times where he's like says a lot like what the character says or he's like, why would I under the scrutiny of the Sunni thing put myself in a position of molesting my daughter with all these people in the home. I've never done it pre. I've never been accused of doing it previously and I've never done it since. So why would I do this one time have to

do that? So that's his defense on himself. But again, it's been investigated. He's been cleared nothing's happened. And now, and in 2018, Sunni did this big long interview with New York magazine that I read for this for this as well where, you know, she just talks really regularly about their relationship and how they got together. And then author talks about their way of being together is like very sweet and like tossing each other's hair. And if he interrupts her, she goes, you're

interrupting me. And like, I don't know at this point, she's a 50 something year old woman. She's

“a mother of two. I believe they both have to have two girls. Like, she has not recognized that”

she was groomed in any way. She has not said that. Like, according to her, she was of age. The moment

like, listen, you guys could have loved each other and had a long life. I think it's creepy wet. Like,

he knew you as a child and you got married. Like, it's fucking creepy. Like, we're allowed to think it's fucking creepy that he knew you as a 10 year old. And then I'm seeing your notes and it's like, are those kids safe? Yeah. Yeah. I'm seeing the obscene stuff. And he's not sorry. I guess he's not sorry. And what he ensued year, both in the obscene files. And Woody Allen says he has not sorry for his friendship with Chelsea, Trevor Goodger, every obscene. I mean,

listen, it's like, I don't even know a lot of Woody Allen movies. We might need Casey on the mic here. But like, I've talked to Jared about this before, because Jared is at knows a lot of Woody Allen movies. And he's like, so many of his movies are about older men being with like, younger women. Um, it's just only seen blue Jasmine. I think I've only seen blue Jasmine and matchpoint. I think those might be the only two Woody Allen movies I've seen. I think the main

“movie where this comes up is the movie Manhattan. Yes. That's what Jared was saying. Yeah. And in”

that one, he plays like a 40 year old guy dating a high schooler. But that's not like the conflict of the movie. That's just like something that's in the movie and everyone accepts it in the world of the movie as like a good thing. It's very strange. Yeah. And like, then look at Jerry Seinfeld. I mean, like, he was dating a high school senior. Like, so I like, I don't know. I think that there's this romanticization. I think of like teens in New York City, also that they're like

older and like wiser because they're city kids. And I think that Woody Allen helped to perpetuate that. But, you know, yeah. So I mean, like Woody Allen talks about how on that trip to like that to the house when when the alleged sexual assault of Dylan happened that he had given Dylan a catalog and and Moses and sexual aka Ronin catalogs and that they had circled all like every toy on the catalog and he was going to go back into the city and buy them some toys from the

catalog and then he's like, I never saw Dylan again, like because then it all then it all came to.

“And I think it was similar as well where Mia Farrow didn't necessarily want to bring it to the”

the public, the stuff. But she brought the she brought Dylan to her pediatrician and the pediatrician is a mandated reporter and had to report it and then that's when law enforcement got involved. So Mia Farrow was like, I didn't necessarily want to do this, but then Mia Woody Allen side is like, well of course she did this happened like eight months after the Sunni thing and she's obviously furious about it and I've said and you know, it's like one of the most fucked up stories of our time.

And that is treated like normal. It's really weird and that like people are just they riot right hard for him. Oh, is he midnight and Paris? I did see that. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't seen that one. Yeah, it's it's like a lot of the people who have been in his movies were like, you know, it's hard to know. We don't know all the facts. Like they were very like kind of scurting around it. Like Scarlett Johansson Blake lively. All these actresses that worked with him and I mean,

probably actors as well. I'm just thinking of the few that I just read doing this research. But then now people that are seeing him in the Epstein files and him being unapologetic about Epstein are like, I regret being in his book. Like they're all these actors are coming out now. I'm going, and now I regret if I had no new then what I know now. Like I wouldn't have been in his movie. So I don't know if he's going to get more shit for just being friends with Jeffrey Epstein.

Even if he didn't know what Epstein was doing and never went to the island,

then he is going to get for marrying his like wife's daughter. I mean, Ronan Farrow will say, my dad is married to my sister. That's fucked up. Like he's like that's moreally fucked up. Whether you want to like pussy foot around the fucking laws and who was what age when that's weird. And that's a weird position that you put your other children into as well. You know, because according to Moses, me, Afaro made all the kids like cut off Woody and said,

you guys, he's evil like made them rehearse what they said about him and that they all, and that it wasn't until later 2018 where Moses came out and to come to his dad's defense. I don't know what's going on with Moses. I don't know, but he, his blog posts is like,

“definitely, I remember reading that in 2018, like six like eight years ago and being like, whoa,”

this is like a perspective on this. I hadn't read. You know, but who knows what he's going through. Like I really don't know. I really don't know what to say about this, but really fucked up and really kind of like a lot of narcissists, like you were saying in the episode,

So then that's that on Woody Allen unless you have anything else, Lisa, that you want to add. Okay, and then obviously the end of this episode throws a Roman Polanski twist in at the end,

which is interesting, because Mia Farrow first became well known for even though she's from

a famous family, her father was a writer, director, her mother was an actress. She, she became famous for her role in Rosemary's Baby, which was written and directed by Roman Polanski. Oh, I know. So it's interesting that these two are sort of tied together in this way. These are like, these are like vintage Epstein files, like everything that's going on with these people. But like she, Roman Polanski, a Polish French director who was essentially separated from his

parents during the Holocaust. He was later reconnected with his father, but he came to the US wrote and directed Rosemary's Baby in 1968. The same year he married actress Sharon Tate. In 1969,

famously a pregnant Sharon Tate was among those murdered by the Manson family.

“While he was out of town, I believe he was in London filming a movie. In 74, he made China”

town, which was like a huge hit, Jack Nicholson, lots of information, redheads, because I just knew him as a rapist, but I guess he's made a lot of stuff. Yeah, I mean, he made the pianist in like 2000 and like two or three or something. I don't know that. I definitely saw that. Yeah, in 1977, however, Polanski had a young girl named, let me see. The time her name was Samantha Galey, and now she's married and her name is Samantha Gimer. I think you would say a G-I-M-E-R. Roman Polanski

had her over. She was 13 years old, had her over to Jack Nicholson's house, which he shared with

my obsession in Jelika Houston, his girlfriend at the time. I love Angelika Houston. Jack Nicholson

was out of town skiing in Colorado in Jelika Houston was off the premises. He had this 13-year-old girl over Polanski, so he could photograph her as part of French Vogue, and he'd been invited to like edit French Vogue or something for a month, and her mother had allowed this to be a private photo shoot. Again, it's like, you know, there's a lot of adults that are f*cking up here. Like, you know how people will blame the goalie for letting the goal in. It's like, there's a lot of

defense that doesn't stop it either from happening. Allows this 13-year-old girl to go have a private photo shoot with a grown man, and she was uncomfortable, like, she had to pose topless, and so then he said later, he gave her a bunch of, she testified later that he gave her a bunch of champagne to like loosen her up. She was nervous, she was scared, and then he made her like lie on the bed, and then he sexually assaulted her. He assaulted her, he penetrated her vaginally and

analy, he performed oral sex on her even though she did want that. After he gave her champagne, and they allegedly shared a quailude. So she was in and out feeling very, but she also was like,

“she remember saying no, but she was also like, if I get, I guess I just get to go home if this”

is done. Like, when this is done. So then he ended up being arrested at four drugging and raping the 13-year-old girl. He pleaded guilty. The charges were unlawful sexual intercourse with the female under the age of 18, raped by use of drugs, perversion, sawdemy, and elude, and lascivious act upon a child under the age of 14, and furnishing a controlled substance to a minor. So he, a lot of charges. Yeah, a lot of charges, but he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of unlawful

sex with a minor in exchange for a probation only sentence, and he also claims to save this girl a trial, right? Yeah. But then the night before his sentencing in 1978, he learned that the judge was going to reject the plea bargain. And apparently this guy was like fuck this, I'm throwing this guy in for as long as I can, I was going to give him 50 years in prison. So Polansky fled to Paris,

“and he's a, I believe he's a French citizen as well. So he continued his career, and he remains”

currently still a fugitive from the US justice system. And in the time that he's been abroad, several other women have come forward with sexual abuse allegations by Polansky, he rarely leaves France. And in 2008, actually, his victim said, I don't wish for him to be held to further punishment or consequences. She said, she has said that the media reporters, the court and the judge have caused quote unquote way more damage to me and my family than anything Roman Polansky has ever

done. Really? And which is weird because in 1993, I'm sorry, in 1988, she sued him for a legend sexual assault, false imprisonment, seduction of a minor, an intentional infliction of emotional

of '96, he still owed her 600,000. But it's interesting to me that she did sue him at the time,

“maybe that was like, who knows? I'm sure at that, like, I don't know, in hindsight, maybe people”

have convinced her otherwise. But in March of 2023, her and her husband met up with Polansky and his wife for a cover interview of a French magazine. And in this interview, she says, quote,

"Let me be very clear, what happened with Polansky was never a big problem for me. I didn't even

know it was illegal that someone could be arrested for it. I was fine, I'm still fine. It was so unfair and so in opposition to justice. Everyone should know by now that Roman has served his sentence, which was long. If you want my opinion, anyone who thinks that he deserves to be in prison is wrong, if it isn't the case today and it wasn't the case yesterday." And quote, "But she did sue him, she did tell authorities that she said no and that she didn't want it to happen and she protested.

“And so I don't fucking know. In October of 2017, a German actress named Renate Langer told”

Swiss police that Polansky raped her in Stad when she was 15 in 1972. Weeks later, American

artist, Marianne Barnard accused Polansky of sexually assaulting her in 1975 when she was 10 years old. And in November of 2019, French actress, Valentin Monier, said that Polansky raped her Edisky Schelle in Stad in 1975 when she was 18. So those are just some of the accusations and the sky loves to go skiing and assault teenagers, like I don't fucking know, but he still, and people defend him, I mean that fucking Quentin Tarantino clip was fucked. But he also got his Cecil be

demil award taken away. And they were trying to, after me to focus a little bit more on how bad it is that we're still allowing him to release movies, like, and he's still getting deals and stuff like that. I mean, Dylan Ferrell was saying, okay, so Weinstein is behind bars, but Amazon just signed like a multimillion dollar deal with my dad who was sexually assaulted me. So it's like, you know, they are sort of picking choosing on who they are, you know, going after, but Polansky's like

still making stuff and living free in France. Yeah, France loves sexual assault. Yeah, they really like hated me too. They think that's just like prudent Americans and I'm like, you shouldn't have to be getting raped at work. Like fuck. Yeah, like what's the big, like, I don't know. It's just so gross that all of these men just like really want to be with like inexperienced, like young girls. When you can, I don't know, like, is it 22 year old not hot enough for you? I don't get it.

“Like you have to have a team. I know, it's gross. And it's about power, you know, it's like all of that”

stuff, like these fucking, yes, fucking freex to be like, I'm 21 and I can't get enough of what he Allen. It's like, I don't know, go to therapy. And he was like, Polansky was kind of like claiming, I think when he, around the time where he lost the Cecil B. De Mill, like he was like, Weinstein's just throwing me under the bus with that my movie doesn't win an Oscar or, or something like that. And it's like, okay. Yeah, I guess just pedophile on pedophile crime happening.

Although, wait, was Weinstein a pedophile or did he just like hurt grown women? Who, Weinstein? Um, I, I think the people have been grown, but I have no idea what he's up to, or

he's any, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, anyway, well, we have an incredible guess.

One of the best days of my life. Don't go anywhere. Stay seated for the best guest ever. Our guest today is a prolific actor to use the word mildly. You may know best for playing White House deputy chief of staff, Josh Lyman on the West Wing. You may also know him as the villainous dad and get out and dozens of other projects, but you know him best today as filmmakers slash pedophile, Frank Maddox. Please enjoy our chat with the legendary Bradley Whitford.

We want to talk about both episodes that you did, but we'll start on reasonable doubt. Like, when they sent you the script for this, were you like Swim Woody Allen or what? Like were you just like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah, uh, god. With the Roman Polanski twist at the end.

that different times in my career. Uh, what you would call a, um, uh, wheelhouse for me.

“You know, when I think when I met, I often I would meet people who would assume that I, there”

was something sort of Ted Bundy about me because of these sort of sort of characters that I play.

Another thing in the way we can get back to the incredible nuance that I put into being a

pederast. But, uh, that was the show I would not know my wife. If I hadn't done that episode because what part of the reason, it's true. I mean, it's what it's like, uh, one of the biggest butterfly effects moments of my life. Jeffrey Tamor was on the show. All right. And I knew I had scenes with, uh, Jeffrey. And I met Jeffrey. And while we were shooting, the courtroom scene, Jeffrey came back from lunch. And he's like, I don't even know what this is.

Um, it's some internet thing that call it streaming. Uh, but I did, like, it wasn't even,

I guess it was a pilot, uh, and it got picked up. Uh, and he came back from lunch. And it was

“transparent. And Jeffrey said to Joey Sawaway, uh, you should, uh, see this guy for this part,”

uh, um, that I did on transparent. And that's how I met my wife. It was because I did that episode of SVU. Oh, my gosh. You met on set. So if you're lonely and you want to find the woman of your dreams, you need to play a pederast and, uh, pretend to be a homophobic cross dresser, this, the lesson for everybody out there. Well, and we could talk about get out. I mean, the iconic bad guy. That was ever made. Like, um, that was, uh, I remember sitting right where I am

right now, reading the script. And going into Amy was in the kitchen and I was like, oh, my God, this script is like complete. It is brilliant. I had no idea that it was going to work. And I thought it, uh, especially with the part that I was playing, you know, you don't want to get wisecracking racist wrong, right? Uh, you know, you don't know how the what the tone is going to be. I remember when I read it, I assumed, uh, I was so obsessed with, uh, the key and peel and Jordan, I just thought

was, I mean, if there's any bad thing about what happened with get out, it's that we don't get to see Jordan act anymore, because he was one of those comic actors who was just absolutely brilliant. And I had assumed that I knew he was directing it, but it was a, it was a $4 million movie. I don't know. I'm sure they don't, uh, tell you how much an SVU episode costs, uh, but I'm wagering it's, uh, less than a half that, uh, or I did get out was probably half what a SVU episode is.

And we shot it in 20 days and, uh, I loved, uh, the script, I love the people I got to work with.

We all wanted it to work for Jordan, but it was, there was no, you know, people are always like,

“"Oh, you must have known." I'm like, "Hmm, no." I like, uh, and I remember going to loop it,”

and Jordan was there, and I said, "Uh, can I see it?" Uh, and he said, "No, no, I want you to, I want you to see it with an audience." And I'm like, "How is it?" And he's like, "And Jordan is the least arrogant person on the planet." And he's like, "I think it's really, really good." And I was like, "Well, I was kidding." I was like, "Well, you have to think that because, you know, your name's all over everything." And he's like, "Oh, I think it's really, really good."

play rise like that. Wow. And for me, it's one of my favorite movie-going experiences I've ever had

“for sure. Like, because I went opening weekend, and I remember, and people were fucking pumped”

and so many surprises and so many twists, like, such a good end. I mean, it was so- Well, do you know, you know, I, do you know about the ending of that movie? It's a really interesting. I, yeah, I've read that it was supposed to be sad, not good ending. What we probably all as an audience thought was going to happen, and I'm glad that it wasn't, uh, I don't know. Well, what's brilliant about it, you know, it ended with Little Real's character visiting

the character of Chris in prison. Oh, I didn't know- I didn't know about this at all. Oh, I didn't

know about this. Yeah, and it was, I mean, it was a brilliant, um, he was basically going to

him saying, you know, uh, I know what happened. We can expose this, and Daniel's character going, it's okay. We got him. And it was, it was a brilliant statement about, like, mass incarceration, and, uh, it's a very interesting thing to me, that, that, that, that, that, that, and I don't know the nuances. I don't think it was a testing issue, but it ended up changing to a moment, you know, when, uh, Chris is killing a white woman, you know, in the driveway, and the police car drives,

you see the red lights, and the door opens, and you see TSA. Now, I don't care what kind of, you know, racist, you know, white cracker, lunatic, you are, you're going to laugh at that moment. And when you're laughing, you're acknowledging the truth that black people are not safe, you know, with, uh, around cops. If you say that, you're not going to get the message through to the racist,

uh, uh, uh, people out there. And that was, it's always a really interesting,

you know, because I've done a lot of, I've ended up being in a lot of, socially relevant stuff,

“and so that's a really fascinating, uh, thing to me, and I think the other ending worked well,”

but there's something brilliant about that. Yeah. Um, well, he seems like a, cool director, and in this episode of SVU, you're playing sort of this dickhead director, right? Yeah, what it is. You're playing this, sir. And I'm like, we got to find out, like, what are you drawn from? Who you drawn from here? Oh, my God. Well, I have very complicated, uh, uh, feelings about directors, and I'm more and more vehement about, you know, I worry for young actors,

coming up, navigating, uh, directors is tough. There's, there's basically, two out, one of two atmospheres, on a set, or one of two atmospheres coming at you, uh, as an actor. And one is, and it's interesting because I've done a lot of theater, and I'm lucky

enough to be able to do both. There's always a sense at a reading the first read through of a play

of, uh, hey, this might work as flawed as, as it may be, uh, but there's a kind of, um, optimism about the whole endeavor. Any filmed thing I've ever done, often the read through is, it ironically, especially if it's good, there's a fear to it, like I hope we don't fuck this up. And I think it has to do with just the exposure and the money involved. So directors, and I've directed some, it's a incredible pressure that they're under, incredible pressure, and the less secure

director allows their fear to impose. And the message coming to the actor is, you, but don't fuck

“this up. You know, I'm afraid you're going to fuck this up. I know how you should do it,”

but as an actor, you can get this sense of, oh, they, you know, they don't trust you. The best

but the nameiest ones I've ever worked with, Spielberg or, or Jordan, they, they create an atmosphere of, it's, it's, it's not like school. It's like recess. And they are, or, and it's like good parenting. It's like, it, you know, it's like, you owe your kids the possibility of surprising you. And, uh, good directors leave, uh, that space. A good director knows, their self-interest will be served. The stories interest will be served. If the actor doesn't think

that the director knows how the actor should play the scene more than the actor knows. There, there's a very subtle sort of kind of empowerment thing. And basically, uh,

“and you have to navigate them all the time, and I understand the fear and the pressure”

believe me that they're under. But often, you have to, you have to navigate these, uh, you know, titanically insecure, uh, uh, directors. And there's, it's a very weird, you know, uh, hierarchy

on a set. I always laugh because it's filled with, you know, people like me, you know,

pinko lefty fence to yourself, a humanist, and then you get on a set. And it's like a 15-century surfer. You know, it's like, I'm surprised there aren't like Rick Shaw's. And if I'm in the middle of the take, it's totally fine. If I go, uh, we got to cut and go where's the prop guy, you know, where's my watch? Where's my fucking watch? That's fine. Uh, if the prop guy goes, it's in the

“fucking trailer where I put it for you to put on. He's gone. You know what I mean? Right. So there's”

this, and on a set, these, uh, directors are inevitably in, in a position of authority, and the best ones are secure enough to empower everybody on the set around them, um, including the actors. But for young actors coming up, it's, you know, it's really scary. Uh, especially, uh, you know, SVU is class example of, uh, it, there's nothing harder than a guest shot on and on going show. There's nothing more challenging, because you're coming into a family that has been together,

and, uh, you can, you can really tighten up, you know, uh, because inevitably, I mean, despite

everything I'm saying, you know, I'm shooting the diplomat now and, and like, uh, we've incredible

“guest actors on that. And I was like, after the first take, you're like, oh my God, I love, you know,”

Carrie and I are like, how do they find these people? But it means that we're worried that they might not me. You know what I mean? And that's, uh, it's a really hard thing for guest actors to navigate on wrestling, what we would do these walk-and-talks, uh, that were kind of a signature of the show. And, uh, you could tell that these guest actors were terrified, um, you know, you're saying walking-and-talk made me terrified. Yeah, yeah, I'm like, forever.

And we've been doing them like, you know, oh yeah, the end of a walk, uh, end of a walk-and-talk, you know, like a really long one where you're like, it was called F-O-G, fear of greatness when you like fuck up, but you know, at the end and you'd have to go back. And the thing with walk-and-talks

that you would learn quickly is, uh, the first couple probably are not going to work, unless it's

unless it's a miracle. Now, if you're a guest actor on there, uh, it's the, the neurosis of being an actor is until something works, you don't know if it ever will, right? So, I learned on wrestling if I was doing, if I had a guest actor in a walk-and-talk, I would talk to our camera, I tell the camera guy, I'm going to fuck, I'm going to fuck up the first one. I'm going to, like, we'll just go like 10 feet and I'll, oh shit, I went up. Uh, 'cause that relaxes everybody. Uh, uh, that kind of

calms. Yeah, 'cause the guest actors like, well, if Bradley Whitford's talking up a walk-and-talk, I guess I'm okay, I'll, I can figure it out, you know, they won't come. Yeah, that's kind of you're, and your fear is that, you know, it's really, I, being a guest actor, landing in an alien

blood flowing, uh, uh, you know, they, they should have Oscars for that. Now that it's on streaming,

do you find like a different audience has found the West Wing? Yeah, feel in the street, because when we, yeah, when we, you know, when we started that show, maybe there would be a rerun in the summer, and then if you ever wanted to see it again, you'd have to make an appointment at the Museum of Broadcasting. And while we're making it, suddenly they start putting out these

“VHS sets of it, and then DVDs, and, you know, now, I think it, you know, it's, unfortunately,”

every wave of the erosion of democracy that we go through, um, more people sort of watch it. It's sort of like progressive, music or progressive porn. Well, like SVU for the government, you know, a nice fantasy. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's wild to all of us, uh, that it sort of continues, uh, you know, you know, to have this, uh, life. And, uh, you know, can be an object of

inspiration and sadness, uh, uh, you know, I always joke that my career is basically

at tracking, you know, the death of democracy. Now, I was just going to ask, are there,

“you've named so many cool people, but are there moments you remember being starstruck or a little”

extra nervous, or, um, oh, yeah. Um, well, I mean, a thrill, though, she's just at the lion, easy. And, um, uh, the moral street was doing it like a take up close with her, was, uh, and this is not me being a fan or starfuck or anything. It was just watching me do this take, you know, like this for a way from her. And, uh, totally out of character in my head, I'm like, oh, she's playing like five pianos. Like, like, it's the whole different, the whole different ball game. Um, and

I'm with that saying, is that a saying, did you just come up with that? I came up with it before when I,

“in my head when I was like, I thought to run down a few things you said, do you really have”

some, like, um, nice. Well, I mean, the other shit, like, there's somebody we work with who, who, kind of, change your idea about, uh, about acting. I mean, I mean, I mean, I, mark violence I did a play with for a very long time. Um, and that, that kind of changed the way I thought about acting. I mean, a lot of it, the biggest privilege I have is that I've gotten a lot of it bats, like, a lot of it bats. And I'm really grateful for that. And I needed them because

I only partially mean this in a self-deprecating way, but given enough chances, you know, even a champ will type the dictionary. I mean, you do, you do learn the more you do it. And there's a lot of anxiety, uh, blinding anxiety. Uh, again, I still get nervous. I don't know if it's seen as going to work until it works. Or, and I don't know after I shot it, if it works. There's a lot of, like, there's a, there's a, there's a lot of you negotiating with yourself how you're going to deal

with insecurity and fear. And one fundamental way, you do it that those two actors sort of flicked my gyroscope about was as a young actor, you're trying to narrow down, you know, what the scene is, what the character is, you're trying to define it. And what I learned from those extraordinary actors, and just in that moment with her, she was opening up the aperture. She wasn't narrowing it. And both of them were not executing performances, but their cut-up magic sauce was not playing

a scene, but getting played. And that, uh, that moment with her just kind of blew my mind,

she would never think that moment was, you know, anything. Um, but that's really interesting to

the funny thing too is like, everybody, you know, growing up, looking at actors, you think that,

you know, film acting is like incredibly, you know, organic. And there's something a little more artificial about theater acting. You know, film acting is like doing the golf swing. Yeah, well, you know, the method actors are more organic. Yeah, you know, but it's, you know, like you got to hit a mark, you got to do this. Yeah, um, you know, you do a play. You just like, you, you know, you don't have to gear up emotionally. It's just happening to you. Um,

but to see those, those to people just sort of like get played, uh,

“was a different way of thinking about acting for me. What do you think your first credit is?”

Dead is a door man. There's the door man's 85. And then you did an equalizer one episode before a before dead as a door man. Well, there's, I don't see dead as a door man. It just says a door man. Oh, that, that was, that was the original title. They shortened it. It was directed by a Henny Youngman son. Yeah, I did an anti smoking skate in sixth grade. You know, how old I am? I, I really believe that I smoked a cigarette during the anti smoke. I love this very method,

very method. Amy and I just had this little experience making her move. Yeah, for worse, that, that is coming out. Uh, have you seen it? Have you, I, we've been, um, helping to promo it to our listeners because it's not only Amy, but podcast, favorite, Missy pile. And now, and now podcast, favorite, Bradley Whitford. So we will be continuing to push it. But we have not seen it yet. But I, uh, there's more us view people. Paul Edelstein's in a couple of videos. Yeah, Paul Edelstein's in it.

“Yeah. It, uh, okay, but here's the thing that, you know, one point, you know, we had producers,”

I don't know how much it tells you. Like, you know, we had, uh, I think like 4 million, you know,

that, you know, it's making an independent movie, uh, which is a lot of, uh, and, uh, you know, for the totally independent movie we were going to make. And then, uh, I forget what I have to COVID happen, then the strike happened, and then, uh, one point they were going to do it for two million, which is really cutting a close. And then they said they couldn't do it. We went back to them and said, can you do it for a million? And you're like, no, they hired, like, a Lyproducer

who said, you cannot make this for a million. And we made it for less than $500,000. And you'll see it's, you know, Amy in the same way the Jordan, uh, one of the problems we're storytelling and Hollywood is a high percentage of it is a bunch of people walking around telling a joke that they don't personally think is funny. They're just trying to sell it. And you can smell that, like,

from a mile away. Jordan has no condescension about the horror genre. Loves it. Loves every second

“of it. Loves the mechanisms of it is fascinated by it. That's why that movie worked. Amy loves”

rom-coms. She loves playing around, uh, you know, with that puzzle. And I'm telling you less than $500,000 and we shot it in 11 days. I'm looking at this trailer and it looks so good. All these actors showed up, all these people showed up. And I, you know, it truly made me, you know, we didn't at playback. Um, and Amy's in every frame. And it just made me wheat because like it's her voice. It's, you know, it's sexy. It's funny. Uh, and it's true. Uh, you know, it's, uh, and that's the stuff

that, uh, that all the people running around, you know, kind of, I kind of, you know, Hollywood tend to forget. Hashtag. I'm gonna see, I'm gonna, I want to see it when it's in LA. I'm excited. We should let you go, but do you have any other last, like, um, uh, little funny stories from the set? Did you a nice tea? Have a moment together? Uh, I would cuddle, uh, you know, we snapped together. I, I was told that was a requirement for my eyes to sweatshirt. Uh, not I, I wish I had

to stop, I didn't, I didn't have to stop with him on this. No, it was just, I, like, I was just excited

you know, you're doing all this sort of sad stuff all day. It was just like, really long day.

“And I realized that like, uh, I think I took a nap at lunch. I hadn't eaten anything. And I,”

I was in my little, at one point, I'm in, like, hospital, uh, you know, humiliation, gown. Uh, and I remember realizing, like, oh, I haven't eaten anything. And there, and there was soup. And I got in a line with, with the crew, a craft services, um, um, I was, I was really sleepy. But, and I realized that I, like, I had eaten, and I got up there for the soup with the craft services, guys, like, uh, no background, no background. I was like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm a guest actor.

He didn't want to give you the soup. Hey, I want to give me this. I'm like, please, just give me the

second soup. Well, I was just thinking about, I bet that West Wing schedule was wild. Yeah. That, uh, it was in saying crazy, um,

I've said this, I've said this, uh, it was crazy. And I don't know, uh, what was going on back then,

“I think they didn't want to admit how long, how many episodes, they didn't want to break the eight”

days, the pretense that you could make that show in eight days, right? The level of, first of all, what Aaron did on that show, he, uh, uh, I wrote two episodes a year apart. I thought my brain was going to fucking break. He wrote 22 for four years. That is the equivalent, you know, the sprannos is good as any mob moving. The West Wing, I would, I don't think it's arrogant to say, was attempting to be as good as any political moving. So you're making the equivalent of 11

feature films in nine months. And they would pretend that they could do it in eight days, because they, if they broke that, uh, uh, rule, other shows would want more time as well. So a short day for us was 15 hours. And it was far more brutal for the crew. And people, if you're doing a feature, it's a sprint, you can do six weeks. You know, if you're doing a series, and again, especially for the crew, people started to, like, go nuts. And I mean, eventually, you know, it was like,

“remember, braying at somebody, like, you know, the invisible carnage of the unfucked wives”

and the children, not being read to is just like, whafting out into the future. And that's a good name for a band, by the way, the unfucked. The invisible carnage of the unfucked wives, even

more and more. That's, that's their first album that was their day. Yeah. But yeah, you know,

no, it was insane. I just saw Janelle in, uh, she's done an SV. Janelle Maloney from, she's on a SV, she's the doctor. We were trying to get for that episode. Yeah. Uh, and I had a great, I was, she lives in Brooklyn, and we haven't, you know, and Allison and I talked about this. I mean, we, it was brutal, but we are all, even Richard Schiff is grateful. I mean, which is a miracle, for him, to experience that emotion. Uh, but, you know, it was such a crushing level. Uh,

it was familial, you know, you will be revealed in your good days, your bad days, your tire. You know, you're happy. Um, uh, it was a, it was a very intense thing. And now, only on a show like SVU, do you get that, uh, you know, in, like intensity, you know, on handmaids, you do, you know, or diplomat, you do eight or ten every couple of years, um, which is sainer and, uh, the wife's get fucked, but, uh, oh my god, but it's a different, it's a different kind of experience, you know,

is kind of a sweet spot. What are they 15? Yeah, they're do 15 on the pet. It's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

“because it's the full shift. Um, your episode of your, this episode where you're the Woody Allen,”

type is the, the episode right after it is another West Wing Josh Molina, it's episode thought criminal, where he, his episode is creepy. He's a guy who builds a full room. Yeah, are you aware of my thing with Joe? No, oh, do we need to cut this? We could do off. No, no, no, no, no, I want it on the record. Josh is, uh, the very, I, I met Aaron's work because I was in a few good men on Broadway, and

my first night on a Broadway stage, which is in an Aaron's working piece. It's like jumping

on a moving train. It's terrifying. Terrifying. And, uh, I, I get halfway through and then there's a big

“trial. Initially, I was playing the Kevin Bacon part, and then, and I was understudying the lead,”

and then I took over the lead, um, which is why I got West Wing, basically. Aaron gave me a like, like a big break, but I'm, I'm going into a Broadway play. I am, you're basically watching the play and rehearsing with a stage manager, and then you do one put in, and then you're on. And it's terrifying. And I'm halfway through, and I have the big court scene, and I come down, and we're facing the audience, and I open up my briefcase. And it is plastered with pornography

that haunts me to this day, that Josh Molina put in there my first night. And it turns out

“that Josh is a, how do I put it, malignant practical drill for, like, dangerous, not funny.”

And Josh, uh, he almost got fired because he put, uh, itching powder in one of the marines, uh, costumes, which is technically actually kind of a poison. So you have a marina up, up on a thing, like, you know, like, like, like, does that's too hard? Oh, Josh, a little porn in the briefcase, I can get behind, but you can't get people like a rash. Josh, uh, one director, uh, West Wing would destroy directors. They would come in cocky, you know, and, like, you know,

maybe I'll get nominated for an Emmy, and you can find them weeping behind flats. And Friday night you shouldn't till, like, you know, two, three in the morning. And this poor guy is, like, staggering out the door and Warner Brothers and just wants to go home and sleep for a short weekend. Josh has gotten the guys keys from Transpo and put a bunch of stuff from the set, like Teddy Roosevelt's Nobel Prize and some computers in the back of the guy's car and, uh, calls security when we wrap it

three in the morning. And, uh, basically, long story short, the directors basically, uh,

getting arrested by the Burbank police, uh, first stealing stuff or, uh, that's his idea of a ha ha ha ha. How did everyone get out of the house? So he, what the fuck? Uh, so he did, uh, something to me, which is too long, too long to go into. So I, I had to, I have made the mistake of engaging, uh, in this, uh, with him. And I, um, got him, I, I got hold of the, uh, memorial editor, uh, for the sag awards to get him cut into the memorial. And I had a check written for several thousand dollars,

and the guy chickened out, which is lucky, uh, because it would have been the greatest thing ever, but horribly disrespectful to the people who died that year, but he would have been declared dead to, uh, all of show business. And, uh, when I got to write the West Wings, I, um, the second one, all I knew was I wanted to get to a moment where Josh had to humiliate himself a national television.

I'm more proud of it than, uh, anything I've ever done creatively.

The, uh, Allison is now the press secretary, uh, Josh is the press secretary. Allison is now the chief staff, and Allison brings Josh, uh, into the office and says the president's son-in-law is having a fair and, uh, he says, uh, he's like, hey, he was running for Congress and, and Josh is playing the press secretary, and he says, why did you tell me that? And she, because you're the press secretary,

“you have to, you have to deal with the, deal with the press, and he, and he goes, uh, uh, yeah, exactly,”

I deal with the press. I should be the least informed person in the room. You taught me that, and she goes, suck it up, and he goes, I can't act. I am a terrible actor. I don't like to pretend. And I got it into an episode, and I keep it on my phone, too, I'm going to play it for you. I'm up with a press. I do my things work when I'm the least informed person in the room.

You taught me that. I can't act. I'm a terrible man. You're up in New Hampshire and I like to

pretend during the process. The truth of it is I love Josh. Oh, good. At first, I was like,

"Oh, have I brought up some deep-seated, Westwing feud that I didn't know about?" Thank you for giving us so much time and so many great stories. Really fun. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Brad. This was awesome.

“This was one of the best moments of my life, I would say. I mean, I think we talked to him”

for, was that the, was that like our longest interview? I think we talked to him for like an hour and a half. I just truly feel like I really laughed for my inner core. And I'm trying to find the quotes. I like really likes his quotes. I was talking about getting the crews like wives fucked for weeks, like after we talked to him. Wait, why? When he was like, we need to get the crew home to fuck their wives. Oh, yes. It's like the best. And I like that he said like set should feel like

recess, not like school, that it's like a practice of submission is what acting is like he's just fun. But I think he takes his work seriously, but he doesn't take himself seriously or like the business in that way. And still his feels really like excited to work and likes all these people he's met. I'm just, I'm in, I was like very taken by. Yes, I love him. I love his work. I love the relationship. I love him in Amy Dennis Webber. You're out. Who was the guy's name that I loved from. We loved him so much.

We don't know his name. Steve Webber. Steve, it was years ago. Come on. I know. I remember we're interviewing him because we were in the Carolinas. And we were in a weird house.

“So like we weren't so, um, but yes. Do you ever out Bradley Woodford in?”

I mean, I'm in terms of my heart. Yeah, but I love him so much. I love his relationship. With Amy Landiker. I love them. Finding love after love, you know. Um, there's also something so comforting about him to me. Like I said, I did quit the handmaids tale after like two or three seasons because I got too real. And then I started having kids. But his character just being kind of one of the like good guys was like, he's comforting to me in that way. Also, um, because I got to watch

West Wing. I never was a West Winger. But like I had a friend come over recently who's like,

oh, I watched the West Wing like once a year. And I was like, we just interviewed Bradley on our podcast. And she was like, what? Like, people are obsessed. Like they are. I want to watch West Wing. I pulled it up on a tab. But yeah, I still haven't watched any TV shows since, uh, but I haven't watched you to rivalry either. I've put myself on like pause. Yeah. Yeah. Let's like, yeah. Get into drag race. I'm liking this season. Oh, I watched him. I will. I just truly am like reading

or doing my Russian homework or like out. I mean, I'm not sitting here trying to beg you to get on a 12 hour show binge. I don't want that. I like what you're doing. I like that. It's been for I haven't been getting blacked out. That is a reality as well. But I, you know, that's fine. You live in New York. You're young. You haven't fun. Come on. I'm giving you permission. Anyway, so reasonable doubt. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about it. And we're done. Everyone's a molester. Everyone is

a peasant. I mean, the sad part to me is that like, the sad part to me is that like Roman Planck's victim just like felt, I think so. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not going to speak for her. But like that

it was always fine. It's like, even if that is how you feel because I'm not going to tell anybody

how to feel like why are we sending that message that it is okay for a man to have sex with a 13 year old while they're on quit. It's like, I don't know. Like, that's not that's, we should even with a Michael Jackson where it's like, they were just napping and it's like, okay, but why are they

“napping? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, what are you talking about? I think you just need to say that going for”

this isn't okay. So I think it's okay for her to come out and say, I'm through this. Like, I've moved on like, but not to be like, it was never a problem is so strange, but also who knows what being under media scrutiny since you were 13 for this one specific extremely famous case has done to your use psychologically. But this episode, I don't know. This is really okay. Things in such a way. It's so weird what people don't want to deal with. I don't know. It's really strange. Like,

I would never be friends with someone that married their daughter in any capacity.

Like, not a step, not of twice removed, not like a fake situation where it's like just your friends kid. Like, yeah, even the, it's just like, I don't understand the leniency with which people. I don't know. Bring people into their lives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To make a move. Well, I mean,

“people are hungry for fame. You know, but don't I know it. Yeah. Anyway, let's, let's get on to”

what would sister peg do this week. Chris Fleming was on Caleb's podcast. And he was talking, he's like, of course, I want to be mega famous. He's like, I'm pissed that I'm not. Caleb's like, no, you're like, like, no, he goes, no, I want to be readjust filming. And that's my icon. One thing is so sincere, but like, and I get it to have a daytime show for decades on airs looking credible. But like, yeah, I guess, yeah, readjust. I used to either like read your

alters, like I get it, but it's just like a tickle, man. It's a good thing. And you had a great analysis of you did rivalry. Chris Fleming catch him on Caleb's podcast. He's so fucking funny. And get us watch a special. I'm, I haven't watched him. I love him. But I get kind of jealous because I feel like Caleb and I really connect on his pot. And I don't like the way he laughs with Chris Fleming. It, ah, but he laughs with so many people. Yeah, but I know that I know mine is different. And

“but when I see it with Chris, I get pissed. But that's how I feel when I sit at my coffee shop.”

When I see them being nice to other regulars. I'm like, who the fuck is that? Excuse me. I go, excuse me. What? Get out of here. I like, take your matcha, take your matcha,

move on. Talk to my friends. They would never serve matcha at my coffee shop. They don't have

decal. Well, latte. You know, I don't even drink coffee. I'm throwing the terms out. Like, I don't even know what I'm talking about. Um, okay. So throwing the terms out. I don't know. Like, flat white. Like, I don't even know what things are. Um, okay. So let's get into what with Sister Pack do our weekly segment where we direct you guys to an organization, a blog post. I always say blog posts. It's so stupid. We barely ever do a blog post. And article, a documentary,

something to give you more info about the case we covered or the, um, you know, the topics we touched on. And this week, we wanted to point you towards the Hollywood border article from 10 years ago that Ronan Ferro wrote about his dad called my father Woody Allen and the danger of questions unasked. Um, this is one of the early articles that put Ronan Ferro on the map. You guys all know I talked about this awesome Ronan Ferro piece that I read last year. Um, this article is

really critical of the media. The way it handled Woody Allen and other well-known sexual predators. And we all know he, this is pre Harvey Weinstein, me too. We all know Ronan Ferro was very instrumental in bringing that entire movement to light. And, um, there are a lot of lessons in this article that the media could still learn. So, um, to read it head over to the Hollywood reporter and we will have that linked in our show notes and in a story that we post in our stories

on Instagram at that's messed up pod that come out the day this episode. Ears and we always save those in our WWE SPD highlight on our Instagram page so get on over there if you ever want to say what was that organization that they mentioned? It's there. Um, and that's that. And that is that. And next week we'll be doing great expectations season 18 episode 11. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Bye, everybody, see you next week.

for sources and more information. Thank you so much to our senior producer, KCO Brian, and our

“associate producer, Christina Chamberlain. And to our mixer, John Bradley and our guest booker,”

Patrick Cautner, and to Henry Capersky for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork.

Thank you to our executive producers, Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarif, Daniel Kramer, and

everybody at exactly right media.