Bill Kristol and Ro Khanna: Two Governments Acting with Impunity

I'm at a hotel in Des Moines.

“So we got a big guest for you on tomorrow's show.”

Today, we have a double header. In segment two, I added in Congressman Rokana who did a trip to the West Bank last week because my former FY pod, colleague, Cam Cassie, colleague, co-host, buddy, friend, many me.

What they went through is pretty remarkable. We kind of dig right into it in the conversation. So just for a little bit of context, Rowan Cameron went on when Congressman Rises to visit various parts of the West Bank

that was in component of these fact-finding, understanding missions to see what's happening there. There is increasing concern about settler violence in the West Bank. There's been a particular uptake on this since the Iran War

where there's a sense that settler is really settler is going to act with impunity in the West Bank. And even at Boy, I asked her a question from one of his critics that he blanches at. But even that critic in the question,

a very pro Zionist person I follow on social media is like, man, I'm even not really thrilled

“about everything that's happening in the West Bank.”

And then he goes on to Congressman's critics's little row. So that is kind of the context of their trip. And then we get into a lot of details on what they saw and hopefully, that's valuable for folks. So that is segment two.

First, I got Bill Crystal.

Obviously, we talk a bunch about the passing of Lindsey Graham since we recorded Governor Henry McMaster, who is just such a good old boy, South Carolina good old boy. He's with John Kennedy, wishes he was, just really authentic foghorn leghorn.

Believe me, he endorsed John Huntsman in the 2012 primary. So I got to know Henry really well back then, he then went with Trump. Everybody ended up going with Trump. Everybody abandoned me, you know.

It's just, what happens? Life of an EverTrumper, so me and Henry don't talk anymore. But Henry is announcing Lindsey's temporary replacement this afternoon. So by the time this pot is out, you'll probably see

who that is and then there'll be a primary for potentially a permanent replacement, though, that person will have to go up against Annie Andrews

in the general election in November.

So Bill and I kind of turned to kept out a little bit during the pod, but by the time this is out, you guys will know who the interim senator is. So there you go, big show today. Up next, Bill Crestal's to groom.

(upbeat music) Hello and welcome to the board podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. It is Monday. So I'm of course here with editor at Large Bill Crestal.

Hey Tim. A bunch of news to get to obviously the biggest shocking news over the weekend was the death of Senator Lindsey Graham, which many of us woke up to Sunday morning. And I know Bill, you talked about this with Sarah yesterday

under conversation, but folks are going to be interested in hearing the thoughts of this and there's a lot. A lot to be said about Lindsey Graham, but I don't know, maybe you can just kick us off. - Obviously I was saddened by his death,

but to be honest, I was saddened by the last what eight years of his life, eight and years of his life. - Yeah, maybe 10, maybe, yeah. - Yeah, well he voted for McMillan. I forgot about this.

He had voted for Evan McMillan in 2016. So he was hanging in there, you know, as an anti-Trumper, but it changed, I guess, early 2017, you met with Trump. I knew it was pretty well about 20 years ago. We were in Nielcon, McCain, Accolates, both of us, I would say.

Supporters of the war in Iraq. But I was-- - You met the secret meetings that you all met with. - Yes, not a secret meeting. - But that wasn't such a swell group at the time. 70s, I've sent it to somebody, you wrote it for the war.

Well, the small group was those who had supported the war and then were willing to criticize Bush's conduct to the war and Rob Swell, in general, K.C. And McCain, of course, was a little unelead on that in the early September 2003.

With the standard was with him, we were the only conservative magazine of General who was with him on that, everyone else was still in, you know, Bush and Love saw the great mode.

“So really, it was honestly McCain and Lindsey”

and then I'm not the same level, but, you know, me and sort of weekly standard, guys, people. So I got to know Lindsey pretty well in those X-3-4 years. And I'd say he was--

he was a very smart man who could study policy very quickly and also was very politically shrewd, especially on the internal mechanics of the Senate, but also in terms of sort of framing arguments and stuff. So I talked to Lindsey a lot

because McCain was very busy, he was a very famous guy, you know, I love McCain, but Lindsey was a guy who called and said, hey, I think there's a story here that shows that we need to run a sales failing and that we need to surge.

Or if you heard that McBass just come back from the city he was in in 2005 in Iraq and has a story about how counter-insertory should see could work.

I must have talked to Lindsey more than, I really had the other member of Congress in those years and maybe in the entire time I've been in Washington. And we stayed in a virtual touch, and I remember talking to him in 2015 and '60,

he was running for president and not so much in the West in the last eight years. - Yeah, this is a thing about Lindsey is that he also was a political animal and he loved it and he loved politics. He loved strategizing, you know?

“And this probably ends up being part of his downfall, right?”

Todd, you know, kind of a tragic flaw. I must have like why he ends up going along with Trump after being so clear-eyed about him in 2015 and '16 is he just, he loved the game of politics. I basically say him experience with him

but a decade later, with the job campaign, he drops out in 2016, he endorses Job, and he's calling me all the time. It was like the little ideas or things that they should do, you know how to go after Trump, what the things

that he was said about Trump and those phone calls. (laughs) You know, made us look mild and he hated Trump

and was always like thinking about both tactical

and messaging things that Jeff could say or that we could say him out to say, and I've said this before but he also just was really jovial and fun to be around. And you see this from the Democratic Sanders

let's say nice things about him and some for good reason which I'll get to the complaints, you know, folks on the internet get mad at the Democrats Sanders for saying this but like he just is funny and friendly

and like that's not true of some other Republican senators who are just nasty people, you know? And Lindsey would come up and Jeb were in last place and I remember one time we had Eric Cantor with us on a Tuesday driver on the car

and he was such a fucking Debbie Downer and I called the campaign manager and I was like send me Lindsey

“so I need someone to keep Jeb's cheer up, you know?”

Lindsey comes up the next day and he tells us this long story about how the little people of America were protesting him one time because he said something about midgets

or something, he's like they're in my office and he's talking to a hilarious story about how I'm like open up drawers and they're popping out of there and maybe an appropriate but it was needed where it was funny and we needed laughs

when you're in last place on a campaign your brother was president, you need some laughs and so that was just kind of Lindsey and you know I wrote about this in the 24k and we're not like you, I'm after he went on with Trump

I never talked to him again

and then I saw him at the debate in 24 and it was one of those things where it's like his brain is just was moving a second slow and he sees me recognize as a familiar face and he like smiles and walks up to me

and then he remembers who I am and then he starts yelling at me about about a day and a day in the Republicans and Trump and now I should be ashamed and all this and I start yelling at him

and I go to walk away and I get turn around and he is like you know you were right about the debate though he was his debate team was a disaster and then he tries to like make up with me

and Josh would be in patting on the shoulder like that's just that was Lindsey you know I mean he could call somebody you know an asshole and then you know want to go hang out with him after there's good a bad event

right there's some elements of that and Washington and I think it's missed like there are other elements of it if you're going too far can lead you astray to end up becoming what he wants

which is like the sidekick too

like I who was basically an attack

on everything that he said he cared about and you know he was like well if I can do this and play with him and maybe I can get him to change his views on certain things it seems like he did at a time

so I can have influence on Trump but it's like the question of like what does that get you in the end and you know you end up in the situation Kinzinger was talking about the gestures

“like I think Lindsey maybe thought he'd outlast Trump”

and could you know do recompense and that didn't happen and so you know and you and Sarah touched with us yesterday I was like you want to live your life in a way that when people are utilizing you

they don't have to do this right where they say well you know he had these good traits but then also you know he ended up being a sidekick to somebody who I you know Lindsey in addition to the war of everything so fun possible is a huge

proponent for immigration reform with McCain that's another thing in the McCain rod you know and then he ends up being you know whatever the golf cart sidekick to a guy who's opening up ghoulogs and

has just despicable detention centers in this country and is doing broad live on Haitians and and so that's the sad part about all of it with him and you know here we are so I don't know anything else now agreed that it isn't it isn't that way doubly sad isn't it I mean

that you have a say anyone dying suddenly that when he's healthy just got back from Ukraine where I think he was consistent and probably did some good and got trump in the right direction a little more Tom Allen asked me to tell him yesterday I guess that Lindsey had really personally saved a lot of the foreign

aid budget both in Trump's first term and then this past year after those did all of his damage this chairman I guess of this said it's the foreign operation some committee of appropriations so we controlled the budget so he did a lot of good some good behind the scenes by being in good

general but the price is awfully great wasn't it and not personally

“to him but also I'm curious what you think of this will get off Lindsey”

maybe but he was really anti-Trump and really close to McCain at an impressive senator not you're reaching senator and when he decided to throw his letter with Trump I feel like it opened the door to run off a lot of other people not just in the Senate and in the house but in sort of conservative ink world you know yeah I'll let you blame Lindsey on that

when I give that back to Chris Christie Chris Christie was the one in Doris Trump and set the you know kind of started the path for more modern establishment types to come around on Trump so I don't know we could do 2016 accrimination straver at the Lindsey story is really just it's sad it's disappointing and you know there's just a nature of it oh I get into the

policy and the political implications I do want to do one more point of personal privilege I think a lot of giddy gay jokes about Lindsey out there and many people send them to me thinking like them and I'm like a good joke there was public funny Lindsey jokes you know somebody tweeted check your

poppers billion enough to know what that is but that was a funny joke I thought

other times there's just a lot of mean stuff that um I don't know lefty folks I want to I guess here's my excuse to make the gay jokes I don't get to make your out of my friends and I don't know I don't I I'm pretty skeptical that Lindsey had a whole list of prostitutes that he was sleeping with like people say Lindsey didn't have that much money people came very famous

“after he sold his sold a Trump for ill and anyway that's what I'm out on all that”

all right everybody you know I'm on the road a lot I'm trying to be in my hole as much as possible you know to give you guys the best podcast content but there's a big world out there tied to cover politics just sitting in a dark room in Louisiana so I get to get out here among the people I'm on the road right now I'm into Moine we got a very special guest for tomorrow's show so get excited for that

but no matter how much I travel at like I'm a mess that gets annoying if I ever told you to story about the one time when I sat next to the lady on the plane then I spilled an entire bottle of water on her seat and then she had to help me clean it up and then after I finished cleaning up she was just like hey I love your podcast and that was really embarrassing when I said to her oh my gosh this is really embarrassing

and then she said to me no it shouldn't be you seem like the type of person that would spill your but entire bottle of water on the seat and I really felt owned by that anyway when you're somebody like me and you're having to deal with all that stuff and your clumsyness and traveling you want some luggage that makes things as straightforward and smooth as possible our friends at nobles all in one carry on has helped me do that it's built different

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to 46% off after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them please support our show and tell them we sent you before you go to the like the replacement and the senate votes you did mention you just come back from Ukraine there's that rushes sanctions bill that's been sitting out there for whatever the whole term term basically the Lindsay was pushing and he said I can't die now I still need to do the Russian sanctions tragically to staff apparently

when they study a second every city wasn't feeling good but he wanted to beat the press another

classic Lindsay and then he'd go to get it checked out after but Trump had expressed some interest in that sanctions bill I don't know there is you know another out of bombing in Ukraine I don't know exactly what's happening in Trump's head and obviously he's been Russia somewhere between enthusiastic and sympathetic times neutral of the last decade but year and a half in particular but he did want to get this solved in day one I don't know I wonder if this

creates any opening for that maybe that's a false hope I don't know do you have any thoughts on that yeah I'm sort of doubtful I mean Trump what he described his final conversation with Lindsay kind of Lindsay wanted to talk about the Save America Act which is possible I suppose it also seems to be if Lindsay just got out there suggested that we rename it though Lindsay Graham Save America

but anyway but I mean I think there was some reporting from when Lindsay was in Ukraine that he

had bipartisan agreement and the Trump administration was okay now with the bill you think that might have been why Lindsay would have called Trump having literally betraying that day I think from Ukraine but Trump of course doesn't mention it and I'm sort of dubious that things gonna kind of go anywhere. Me too but what you know everyone's probably looked for silver lining maybe this is silver lining with Lindsay's death now South Carolina law means they have to have another

primary that's not gonna get resolved for a little bit. The colonel sent a proof of life picture yesterday with a newspaper in it that didn't mention Lindsay Graham was kind of a weird picture and statement but in the statement he also said he can't get come back to the Senate soon let's you know we have the Todd Blanch confirmation hearing this week assuming McConnell's

not gonna get back to vote for him that means now 52 votes in the Senate bill it's only just what

is happening with South Carolina no Lindsey Graham has passed away his replacement and how that

“may impact things. Well I think Governor McMaster will appoint an interim senator replace Lindsay”

like today and I assume that John Thun will get him sworn in tomorrow so the administration vice president fast will swear I'm in I guess that will be our works the other thing is the primary for Lindsay what the primary for his reelection they have to do a rerun of that and that that will happen throughout the late July and August but yeah so I I think that they'll have someone there to who will be a safer vote for Trump he forever see yeah probably if McConnell doesn't come back

it's 52 not 53 which means they can only afford to lose three Republicans I think we're Cavski will vote against Blanch and so they have to pick up Collins and point it to others and I don't think that's undoable wrote this morning and Sarah's argued argued on our website and we argued in our in our little podcast yesterday too it seems the one thing that could really break it open against Blanch I think and I hope the

Democratic senators have enough sense to focus their questioning on that he was at the

“absolute center of the cover up from that sit-room meeting on July 17th to the”

him flying a week later down to meet with Maxwell and basically get hurt to say nice things about

Trump and then moving her to a cushy place a week later and so they really need to see if they can't get him squirming on that and generate maybe a couple of viral clips on Wednesday so he testify Wednesday Thursday they have the additional witnesses you know how they usually do that they're normally various law professors or former you know whatever justice survivor types I know I believe the Democrats are going to use one of their I think it's two slots for an

abstain survivor actually they should probably use both of those who cares of some level lawyer opposed his top Blanch but anyway that's courageous of an abstain survivor to testify there with you know all these centers well not all of them will be friendly to whoever they are and that could be a dramatic moment if the Blanch hearing becomes a hearing about abstine and the Trump administration's cover up of abstine to which in which Blanch was a central player

“I think as a real chance he could lose but I think almost as important it also puts”

abstine back in front and center for this November and there are a whole bunch of senators who will have to vote for Blanch who are on the ballot in November and I think including Collins and Maine and Sullivan and Alaska but also Ohio and Florida and that's one of the state that I'm now forgetting but then incumbent Republican who's at some risk well maybe like Marshall and Kansas I mean I just think it becomes a you know they are voting to continue not just everything else

all the other bad things Blanch is doing a justice but to continue the abstine cover up and I think that would be pretty effective that might be a not a insignificant part of the Democratic campaigns against those senators in November and Deborah if Democrats won the Senate that would be a very good thing in terms of checking Blanch's law is that so I think this is a win win for the Democrats they just need to really go after Blanch if they beat him they beat him that's

good if they don't beat him they weaken him they weaken Trump's assault on the rule of law and they make the case for a Democratic Senate I agree that abstine is the most potent politically with the Republicans because there's vulnerability there I do wonder if you look at and I Susan Collins is going to be on board for all this and she's going to have to carry the baggage and I don't be the job of whoever replaces Graham Platner in the main Senate race to use against her

there is like that other category of tilless corn and Cassidy I this you don't want to put hope in any of these people really but you know if McConnell can't vote there if Markowski is out you know now you only need a couple I just think the general independence of the DOJ is also worth like really exploring like this is that Trump's personal attorney like the investigation of foes is this argument worthwhile in getting Republican senators now it should

be spent less on than than abstine but like the Jim Komi indictment right the Jim Komi indictment is so embarrassing that I do think it's worth trying to embarrass him over it I just really

and it's preposterous and insulting and it I think demonstrates that he is working at the

“direction of the president and I think that that's an important kind of even if he gets confirmed”

thing to demonstrate as you go forward and make the corruption case against this administration as far as one other stuff is happening so I guess I would throw that on top of your point on actually no I think it's fair enough and I think both of us are sort of focused on the fact it's kind of unlikely it'll be defeated on a possible but unlikely but very important to weaken him and to weaken Trump and his sense into highlight the abuses of justice just going forward

we have two and a half more years of the administration and the more that the public is sort of awakened to what's being done the better the chances of a Democrat's winning the Senate November the

better the chances of stopping some of these abuses or slowing them down but I'm on all these

calls with wonderful liberal lawyers who really are appalled and former Justice Department officials are pulled by as they should be by blanch but they're sort of very focused on how do we beat him and could get grassroots support and with Caroline and stuff to get fresh or chillists and I don't know this could be tough tough to beat him in general but weakening him the weakening therefore the administration and highlighting is both is important in the next two months in the

about up to November 2026 but then important for the next couple of years you have Maxwell and Colony just stand out as things that are very easy for people to understand you know that you can clip and have short videos for people to be able to watch a consume I do things to try to watch these hearings and it's like you these long meandering questions statements and it's just like making me answer for this stuff we will obviously be monitoring that very closely this week and I do

think that the status of McConnell is potentially important there just really quick how to open the replacement question it's got best in his floater himself that cast political as potential maybe he wants to not have to carry the bag with our next topic the Iran more and what that does with the economy I don't know other you know there's a lot of South Carolina officials decaying somebody people throw out there which I mean I can't imagine but I don't know I went back

and looked she got 39% in South Carolina in the primary which I kind of forgot I don't know maybe at the time it felt disappointing because it was like with our home state and she lost by 20 but looked at it through the perspective of now it's kind of like well if you can get 40% against Trump it feels like she could get 50% against some Trump endorsement person yeah I don't know I know if you'll view them there the people who ran against Graham and other people who ran you know

who had a governor I guess who's been mentioned is the possible intro of pointy which and I think the intro of that he would presumably have to tell the governor here she's not running so

“it's not going to be Nancy base that's what that's what it's not going to be we can all”

pulling in laughing Nancy May's who sent a tweet with a godfather tweet yesterday about when you think you're out they pull me back in like minutes after she woke up it seemed like gonna go with the hangover I don't know I like Nancy May says it's not I don't think that we have much concern about the timeline where she becomes a senator that's reassuring you know one yes a bit of good news she got annihilated in the primary worth worth remembering in Lindsay's honor

another thing that Trump is still doing is bombing Iran

smorning he was on facts he says he was lamenting that the Iranians the negotiations are always

11 hours unclear if he was confusing the 11th hour with all that actually I don't know who else was Trump the synapses are null firing for him he talked about how they just keep dragging on negotiations all they do is negotiate he was complaining about that just interesting since he had signed the Treaty of Versailles too just a couple weeks ago you might remember he said that we're going to become the guardians of the state of Hormuz which kind of sounds like a forever war

to me for somebody who's there against forever wars if we're going to permanently have American military personnel protecting and guarding a waterway out of the Persian Gulf that feels like that could potentially be a forever war we also bombed oil infrastructure last night

“so I think gas prices are back on the rise he's in a real”

chit show over there I mean he signed a deal that explicitly I think it was section five of the memorandum understanding said Iran would make arrangements for the for passage to the straight for the next 60 days at least and left the situation after that unclear now Iran's decided are good you know we're really do want to accept a principle that we get to regulate at least partly regulate what happens in the straight

that's rough for Trump to accept and so he is trying to pressure them to kind of not take advantage for the deal that he Trump signed I mean this matters a lot to Iran right this is

they will take some risks I've been a little surprised at how forward leaning if that's the

word they've been and using force at all but they obviously for them this is key if they give that up then Trump or Israel starts bombing in three or four months and what of you know then they're sort of back in in the bad spot so I don't see how these guys were solved very soon and yeah some of the bomb that could stop and they could be interim further into our grievance and all this but the risk premium of stripping all through the straight is not going to go down in

the very future I shouldn't think yeah I just think I kind of economic ripple effects are real

“I think it matters just perception wise like the degree to which it's not resolved and this kind”

of goes back to like the bite and afghanistan thing ended up being a real permanent turn from

for him the withdrawal not I don't think because like people who moved unfavorable on him

like had really strong views and exactly how the afghanistan withdrawal should happen but it was just more than I get it felt like you know nobody's hand was on the tail you know and like he had lost control of the situation and I made him look kind of weak and I feel that like that is happening for Trump right now like things are spiraling out of control he has no ability to control the situation and the Middle East that he started and simultaneously to that that's just mentioned having

those more bombing and both on the Russia and Ukraine size I think is going to solve that on day one prices are going up for people they don't have a plan to deal with that I just think the degree to which like stuff is happening over there is a political problem for him just from like a narrative

“standpoint yeah that's interesting I think that's right I mean the just it wore the drags”

on is more dangerous politically I would think that a war that maybe people judge was not very

well advised and didn't end very well but it's over right and I mean could you could imagine a scenario where Trump just decided not to even contest in a way Iran's next messing around on the straight people like like us would say yeah this is very dangerous for the future it's not good it should be freedom of navigation blah blah blah this is going to be some permanent risk premium but you know what people might not see it much in the very very near future and it would kind of

calm down where it's the fact that we're bombing he can make it look like we're strong we're going to take the straight which is ludicrous but yeah I agree it looks like he just can't end it it's going on and it could escalate and that people don't want that right it's not like and then with their stories now more about how how bad a draw then we seem to have done and protecting the troops we sent there in some of these bases and stuff so yeah I agree with you. A couple other

stories this one is just developing as we're taping this morning but there's early reports of another ice involved shooting in bit of our main us that democratic speaker of the house posted about this so you know kind of details are still to come on that but obviously this comes after just this horrific killing of the immigrant in Houston at the hands of ice officers which we discussed all last week you wrote about last week you know that that also comes after some reports that I

think there's a period of time during the transition where some of the ice activities were you know more sporadic et cetera but it feels like they are back on full court press but there's some reporting in the art times this effect as far as like the number of people that are apprehending et cetera where we have to what are they going to do about the Haitians like that is you know coming soon so like this issue is also coming back to the forefront right now.

“Yeah and it's been reporting on contest that I think that Steven Miller the White House said we need”

2000 arrested day and so they're out there combing the streets for people who may then pull over and it turns out these guys are not well trained and they use violence much more than they should and they shoot innocent people and it's terrible and it's utterly and totally unnecessary. I mean I guess I really come back to that it's I mean there are times when there are encounters of cops with people and they use much more force than they should and it's terrible but I

don't know sometimes those are encounters with actual you know people whom they're having encounters with you know I mean violent encounters they they said he if the someone was assaulting someone they got you know whatever they shouldn't still go shoot people and they don't have to or obviously deal on their neck or anything like that these are literally what we don't know about may but in the case of Houston which I've looked at you know been pretty obsessed with I mean

it's utterly unprovoked unnecessary unwarranted gratuitous and they killed this man 35 years there seems like a really admirable man sort of a kind of an American success story if I could put it that way well and then they lied about it immediately right out of the box and they've continued to lie no independent investigation no clarity about who was involved no footage or they didn't weren't wearing their they weren't wearing their body cams I mean total disgrace it really

did agree to which they they haven't changed anything after all they sort of promised and they meant when the Democrats were holding up the funding well we're gonna do some of these changes

just totally unnecessary what was the case for you know pulling over at Lorenzo let alone obviously murdering him so they really terrible they weren't even looking for Lorenzo they're lying for another guy right they screwed up you know and it's still masked man and then they detained the other three guys in the car including his brother and they're like pressuring them to self-deport trying to pressure them to get out of the country so they couldn't speak out and tell people what really

happened it's just a total cover-up in lie and you know the reality is they completely dehumanize

people that are immigrants particularly those who didn't come here to the legal process and so

“I think that they feel like nobody will care right that we can get away with this one I do I”

think that they think that I go you know whatever this is different than Alex predi who's American citizen like I like we can we can brush this on the baroque people stop talking about it and I think it's really obviously incumbent on you know the media and us to keep discussing it and getting more information because there's still a bunch of things we don't know about this killing but also on the Democrats politicians to run on this and put pressure on the administration

over it to that point you have become I think maybe the strongest soldier in favor of abolishing ice

bill crystal I think that that's caught some people by surprise this was a fringe view among

you kind of the DSA left about four years ago and now I've heard that you're thinking about getting an abolished ice tattoo and so I am wondering how you feel about that position I mean there's some things that ice does obviously that's another law enforcement agency

“would have to do so it's it's a little bit rhetorical but honestly it's maybe just a way of”

expressing my utter disgust with the mass deportation effort and I don't think people have focused enough on it so you can have stictor or less strict immigration policies you can you know there are all kinds of things that are I would have views about but you know it's within reasonable debate mass deportation this is what happens when you have mass deportation wholesale violation of civil rights wholesale dehumanization as you were saying of immigrants especially

of certain colors and from certain places certain colors skin and from certain places really terrible on its own terrible for its sort of secondary effects on the country and they do believe I think you're right that most Americans will care and I have been shocked in this case by the number of conservatives some of you and I have known online and writing things who are sort of well I mean he was illegal I mean so what do you expect kind of thing you know and you know

I mean really they don't they can't even say look I generally support a strict aliter immigration I think some of the criticisms of Trump run fair but this case yeah this is really bad and we should have like little an independent investigations that too much to ask for someone who's killed someone was killed yeah the government doesn't have impunity to kill people in the street just because they didn't come into a country legally 35 years ago and that is totally insane as an argument and

I but I think that they feel like they're on solid ground with that argument and I don't think

“there's a lot of pushback within the bubble and I think that's why it's important”

to aggressively combat that argument and to go on offense and so I think it's a valuable that the production movement has you out there as the strongest soldier in favor of abolishing ice two other choices like the free speech administration so in Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk were on board of the administration they wanted unfettered free speech in the marketplace well the Trump administration issued subpoenas Friday to several New York Times journalists following

their reporting on the security concerns about the cutary hand me down Air Force 1 subpoenas want them to testify for a grand jury they were delivered to the reporters homes by federal agents something I'm note here is Jay Clayton who is one of the guys or he wasn't one of the guys he was a guy that was floated to be their placement DNI if Polty doesn't get confirmed he's the US 24 man hat and so he was one that issued these subpoenas against journalists

this is a pretty extreme move even if the journalists themselves aren't the targets and the

leakers are the targets it's a attack on the first amendment it's like a classic story of an

embarrassed authoritarian it's just like they're just embarrassed that their hand me down plain couldn't fly Trump out of Turkey because they felt it was unsafe because he started a stupid warner on and so because they were embarrassed like now they're going to have lash out and go after people that are trying to get the fact out yeah for me it's an illustration of just how how the authoritarianism is on you know it's going at all cylinders throughout the

government you know it's going internally in terms of firing people live in stories about that recently at all the different agencies and and cracking down a light detector test it's going

side of it we've we've we've walked about obviously the immigration stuff I mean it just

it's someone said a whole of government effort to intimidate people within and without the government and it's really as classic authoritarianism and very dangerous and and no no yielding I mean it's going faster than it was I'd say a year ago. Final topic for you get to row here in segment two I just think that it's important for the internet to know your take on this looks max or clavicular was visiting Israel this weekend and had some meetings with Netanyahu officials

after that he said that he also is going to Russia next and he's just trying to get the visa worked out for that and so I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on clavicular and the looks

“maxers being used as propaganda by foreign countries I think this is really or up your alley you know”

it has and really up will summers out I'm going to let you and we'll discuss this at some point

you know okay you don't know you don't have any thoughts do you have any thoughts on clavic yours rhinoplasty I guess that is pretty disappointing is it really yeah I hope you can do their whole different show on that really I think yes later this week I hope he doesn't go to Russia don't do it clavic yours don't get used as a pawn by Putin okay your talents can be used elsewhere take your talents back to south beach build quest or anything else any final parting thoughts for folks okay

please appreciate it up next segment to we got roadcon all right we are back with California Congressman roadcon uh row I was a little worried when you took my Gen Z podcast side kick okay that you're gonna get under trouble but it turns out he almost got you killed last week so I don't know what's happening with that well he is a brave person you know I don't think he'll mind me sharing this when we were detained with the extremist settlers and they were

brandishing M4s he had a bit of a panic attack because he had obviously came had witnessed the parkland shooting and it was a very tense time I mean they were they're looking at the Zanuda village that was destroyed we were invited there by villagers it was destroyed by Yenan levy extremist and extremist settler by the way just six seven months ago there were other members of congress who had been there a representative cast and representative de Laura so this idea of narrative

that somehow we weren't supposed to be there is just false and then we see these hoodlums these kids with M4 guns and other guns they circle our vans they're kicking our tires they're laughing at us mocking at us they'll look in their eyes of of Glee is they're doing this it's just

“something I will never forget they do that for about 20 minutes and then the IDF comes I said”

finally we're going to get out of here because they had the settlers had blocked our van and then

the IDF parks and further blocks us in and they say we don't care that they're Americans we don't care that there's someone who is an American government official and we were there almost 75 minutes I'm just thankful frankly to the American embassy career official David Brownstein who made a call to someone senior in Israel and finally we got out but it could have been much worse and if we were Palestinians we probably wouldn't be here truly it was horrific you know it's

to talk to the camera about that and you're right he's he's passionate it's passionate young man and he cares about this stuff and wanted to be there because he cares about the people bellstein talking about with the origin of this trip was how you kind of ended up there and in the west bank and and just kind of what proceeded you know this encounter with the with the violence elders well cam had had had gone there himself about seven months ago and it was his only trip overseas

“and I think about his 25 is the only trip overseas and he said well you're you're talking about”

hasn't even been a can't tune I think his passport was Mexico not even can't tune but he stands he's done two trips overseas and they both went to the west bank is a choice for international travel he said look you're talking about these things in a policy way but you got to see it firsthand and I was trying to Jasper in the fanial is an extraordinary journalist there who's put his body on the line to protect Palestinians from extreme settler violence and he said look

if you come and if you do it in a way that actually has Palestinians leading you and seeing the villages from their eyes I'll make the introductions but I don't want to be part of some PR trip where you're just coming with the Israeli government or an advocacy group advocacy group so he did it and

of being detained but what I'm hoping to him is that the attention that the incident has legitimately

“gotten because they detained American citizens will help me tell the story of Palestinians because”

this is happening to Palestinians every day there a father who saw his son shot at 14 a Palestinian American shot by the IDF shot to death and is still grieving for his son school shooting like the one Cam was in we went we saw a school shooting a site of blood of a Palestinian young man the difference

is that the principal has no idea what has happened in an investigation was never talked to by the

police or the IDF no consequences for the people who shot up this school I could go on and on about the stories I heard but I got to say this because you got viewers who genuinely may love Israel care about Israel you've got viewers of critical take the politics out of this anyone who goes to the West Bank will be horrified by the conditions there this is not political anyone would be horrified

“what's going on yeah let's just back up the lens and for people you know who aren't as familiar”

with like the geography the region and and kind of the different elements just talk about kind of the West Bank how it's governed now you know and what you know the current the system is and kind of how that's changed over the last couple years so after 1967 where there was the war

the between Israel Jordan Egypt Israel basically took over Gaza and the West Bank and most people

who go to Israel though the part of Israel that is within the green line that is the part of Israel that doesn't include these occupied territories and I had been to Israel three times before and was largely inside the green line yes you sometimes you go to Ramallah you meet President Abbas or some of the business leaders but that's really not getting a sentence of the West Bank the West Bank which is basically the occupied Palestine is in three areas area A which is

supposed to be Palestinian in Minnesota area B which is joined in Minister and area C which is Israeli in Minister and we on this trip went to all of those parts the ABNC to look at the life of Palestinians and I'll tell you regardless of the area if you're Palestinian or Palestinian

American there you basically have no rights you are subject to the whims of extremist settlers

I I was at a home of someone millionaire here in the United States in fact the conservators are criticizing saying condescending outside the homes of millionaires and mansion starting by Palestinians right yeah some of those people were millionaires Palestinian Americans and they showed me what how settlers basically vandalize their homes beat one of the ladies and one of their cars through rocks at them how when they go through checkpoints in in the West Bank they are one of them

was beaten by an Israeli security officer because he didn't speak Hebrew so it doesn't matter if you're Palestinian if you're an American if you're an area A if you're wealthy you're just not treated

“with basic dignity and I am convinced to am I really believe this even the most pro israel”

American go go there and be horrified and we want that situation to be resolved yeah I'll talk about a couple of those areas that you visited you mentioned like meeting at the Palestinian Americans I there are a couple of towns that are like kind of American Palestinian American communities including al-Mazra which something I was not aware of talk about that and you kind of the the people you met there and I think that kind of gives a different perspective on

what maybe people imagine are the folks living in the West Bank well one of the homes I went to in al-Mazra was a father who lives in Florida and his son was detained by israel son was about 17 18 years old who's American as citizen raised in Florida was back in in in in Palestine for the summer was detained and put in prison for nine months emaciated by the time he came out and I talked to another father near there who's son as I described earlier was shot to death now the

father says that his 14er old who was in American citizen was throwing rocks and he admits that that son was throwing rocks but the IDF officer shot him 21 times and there's no accountability no investigation and then you saw in some of these homes one person had put in investment in buying three homes in that area and has stopped all construction because the settlers were attacking any

the settlers saws and so they came and attacked right afterwards and one of the people who was

“on our delegation trip was detained by the settlers they took his keys of his tractor and”

it's unclear if he's even gotten it back so even in these places we get Palestinian Americans wealthy Palestinian Americans in a Palestinian in ministered area area a you still have basic oppression and racism and they don't have enough water there and and then if you go to

areas see where it's is really controlled it's basically the wild west and which which what cities

are in areas see or like what town for example uh zunata the village that was destroyed burnt to the ground where we saw an elementary school totally burnt umel care you know I went to umel care and just two small stories there one the night before I was there uh the settlers attacked a home and they attacked the home of a Palestinian man uh Salman and his family his daughter was 18 years old studying to go to university suddenly she hears rattling on her house she has people

throwing things at in a dirt near her room and she gets so scared she stopped studying uh and then the

Israeli settlers plant and is really flagged I saw this on that with my own eyes on the home of Salman

a Palestinian home and he has no recourse uh to uh preventing this violence and you have actually people doing protective services protective presence uh Jewish Americans is really who are there to guard his home at night because they're gonna have settler attacks Jasper and Nathaniel one of the journalists did it and was actually beaten uh on his head and then after we were there in umel care two hours after there was a settler attack where people were brandishing machine guns

“and it's all related to the CNN journalists or also CNN journalists I think or maybe that was a”

couple days later that may have been later there was also an incident I I don't know where that one was but this is a daily occurrence and the here is the frustrating part we all they all know who this was yet you're not levy has an illegal outpost and outpost is uh settlement that is illegal even under Israeli law there is video of him shooting a Palestinian and killing him Ottawa and I met Ottawa's brother Khalil and Khalil says that he sees Yenan levy uh every couple months in the settlement

roaming free and Yenan levy's folks are the ones who detained us at the Zunada village we have the images of these people there they should be arrested Yenan levy should be arrested what what is going on and so we can talk philosophically about how it's apartheid how we need a Palestinian state but at the very least can we stop the extreme settlers get them arrested can we demolish these outposts I mean there can we just start to have Palestinians living their treated with basic dignity

yeah I want to talk about the potential political solutions but just one other thing that struck me when I was talking to camera about your visit is um you know the town of Bethlehem obviously

“important town for Christians where Jesus was born and and Betsa her you know where the”

shepherds were in the Bible that was a tourist attraction of course in the West Bank and now has been completely surrounded by settlements hard for tourists to get there you guys were there you just talk a little bit about what you saw in Bethlehem we went to uh Betsa Rourer we went to Bethlehem we went to Bejala we putting out a video in the next few days from the perspective of

the mayor's of those towns we stood outside a shepherds field where the angels basically announced

Christ's birth we went to the Church of Nativity which is where Jesus Christ was was born and Betsa Rourer is a majority a Christian town still and Bethlehem is a large Christian population as does uh Betjala but it was just shocking to hear their perspectives there are 24 illegal settlements that are surrounding Bethlehem according to the mayor according to the mayor in Betsa Rourer there was an American who wanted to develop some of the few land near Betsa Rourer to stage a play

the passion of Christ's play about Christ's suffering and they were so excited that we're going to get this development and now there's an illegal settlement that has come right there and preventing the development that an American wanted to do the mayor's all three of the mayor's talk about how their residents complain about not having enough water to wash their clothes

and the UN standard is 100 liters a day is what's needed for a normal life I could go on and on

“but it was just a price of and by the way these mirrors her mayor's of their towns can't go”

into Jerusalem they're still applying because they want to meet with the Orthodox Church and some of the bishops and they don't have permission even as mayor's to go there a couple of the critics that were commenting that I saw on your trip one who I follow on social media seems like an Ernest probably as real supporters said basically he thought this is an intentional political stunt at your guides took you into a restricted area that's closed off to civilians without

requesting access or coordinating that you wanted to happen basically yeah I wanted myself and Kim to be in a van surrounded by people brandishing M4s kicking our tires insulting us I mean come on that's like that's about as credible as the people who think that Donald Trump staged his own assassination attempt at Butler I have about as much respect for that comment

“as I do for those wacko conspiracy theorists who think that Trump's assassination attempt was fake”

but the reality is that the Zunada village was destroyed and just six months ago

congressman Sean casting congresswoman Rosa Delora was there were there we were like them invited by the villagers the Israeli government has put an order saying that the extremist settlers can't go there because the extremist settlers were committing violence against these villagers and so we went like other members of congress there we had informed the Israeli embassy we had informed the American embassy of course otherwise how did we get out obviously the

American embassy was informed the Israeli embassy was informed and when we went there it's not like we were there were any signs or stopped by Israeli police there were violent vigilante settlers

who detained us and then the IDF cooperated with those settlers at any other country this would

be a massive international incident how dare they treat American passport holders this way the New York Post also said you know pointed out that you were invited to meet freed hostages and survivors of October 7 and invited to meet with the Druze civilians in the golden heights who are currently kind of embroiled in between conflict between Syria and Israel and who are citing more with Israel what's your kind of reaction to why not

meet with people beyond the West Bank this is really important for me to address because I had been to Israel three times before I am met with the Prime Minister Bennett met with Prime Minister Netanyahu met with a lot of ministers met with government officials I had met with John and Rachel Poland and communicated with them when their beloved son Hirsch was in captivity and did my small part to try to free advocate for the freeing of Hirsch of course that was

unsuccessful and Hirsch was murdered and killed by terrorists I have met with hostage families but the argument that the Israeli government is making is that no one should be able to go on a Palestinian led tour to the West Bank without engaging in the perspective from the

“side of the Israeli government and I just reject that I believe that we need to be able to have”

Palestinian led tours and my intention was to go to the West Bank to hear their perspective I had already heard it three times from Israel and I've met and will continue to meet with families of of hostages but if their standard is that anything is a stunt if it's not seen through the lens of a pack or through the lens of the Israeli government well that's partly why the Palestinians have been denied justice for the past 75 years looking into what the relationships

look like going forward I like how how would you see what the American relationships with Israel should be I guess compared to like our relationship with Saudi Arabia which also does human rights violations we also have economic partnership with them you know how would you kind of think about that well we shouldn't be giving Israel aid that's we don't give the kind of aid to Saudi Arabia we shouldn't be giving countries aid that have massive human rights violations

we shouldn't be providing military sales that are killing civilians and we should really address the occupation and injustice now I fundamentally believe we need a Palestinian state but there are things we can do immediately an American Congress and American president could demand that the idea for move the outpost they could demand the arrest of people like you non-levy and

enforcement in area A, B, and C that would protect the rights of Palestinians this is

short of full self determination but it would just take away some of the extreme injustice that is taking place today they could allow bets rates of war and Bethlehem to drill for their own water so you can have some water for Palestinians there are a lot of things that we could do that would improve the daily life as we work towards a broader peace process and you know look I

“there are parts of Israel that I think were extraordinary when I visited the educational research”

the innovation the sense of contributions that they have made but anyone who cares deeply about humanity would understand that it's just unjust what's taking place and my view is to have

a Palestinian state where they secure Israel as a Jewish state but a Jewish state that has

equal rights and equal dignity for everyone within its borders and certainly in recognizing the dignity of Palestinians. Ron was giving a big speech in Israel while you were in the West Bank included some things like sanctions for banks that are doing business with settlers who are doing illegal settlements. Do you have a chance to see that speech? Have any thoughts on what Ron has been saying? I did and I you know I appreciate it and obviously I don't think it goes for enough and doesn't

center Palestinians but Ron's got a long history of families who have sacrificed for Israel. He's someone who has seen obviously as someone a very pro-Israel and for him to go out there and say there's an arrogance of power and that there need to be sanctions on on on settlers and there needs to be a sanction on banks that are doing this construction. I said good you know I don't agree with a number of these positions but my view is we need all of the voices possible

to get justice there and to move forward and I believe he made a contribution to more of that end. >> Right last thing you are a big supporter of Grand Plotters campaign that is now collapsed putting the Senate at risk. The wondering kind of looking back at that what lessons were learned from it. Do you have regrets? >> I got the call wrong. I should have listened to my wife. She was opposed to me endorsing and I actually was chatting with her. I said can I share that

“publication? You should share that publicly because you got the call wrong and I look I'm humble enough”

when I make a mistake alone up to it and I made a lot of endorsements but this one was a mistake and I should have seen more of the signs that were there of his thoughts of treatment to women. I had drawn the line. It's sexual assault and sexual violence and it was the first to withdraw. But I don't think the answer to this is just to obfuscate or paper over it. I made a mistake. I made a wrong call. I'm going to learn from it and being more vigilant on vetting in signs

and admit that you know I'm not going to get everything right. >> On the learning on the vetting,

my takeaway from this is that there's this line always go back to the George Bush gave with

all people at a funeral where he said that a lot of times you're looking people on your side, you're looking at their best intentions. When you're looking people on the other side, you're looking at their worst examples. He was talking about the partisan ship element of this. But I see this kind of in the factional fight sometimes within the Democratic Party where if somebody, if you're on the left side of the party, you give the benefit of the doubt to people,

if they're in the other faction, you know, you nitpick their worst examples. What's your reaction to that? That's a takeaway from this. >> I actually totally agree. I mean, I think we did give him the benefit of the doubt because he was so strong against foreign wars for Medicare for all talking about taxing billionaires and the economic inequality. It was a charismatic organizer. And in this case, we gave too much of the benefit of the doubt.

Now, I think in general, we should be giving people the benefit of the doubt if we want people who don't have my background at, you know, I joke around. I went to Yale Law School and no one was studying there. They all want to be on the Supreme Court or Senator or Congress

“for Senator President. And you want the country just to have folks like that? Fine. But if you want to have a broader”

group of people who aren't necessarily plotting their political careers since the time they won their road scholarship or what at some elite law school, then there has to be some benefit of the doubt. And that was my instinct. But in this case, the benefit of the doubt was too much. Obviously,

against women. And so it's a balance for giving benefit of the doubt. It's natural that you're going to get benefit of the doubt to people who share your ideology. But there has to be a clear line on sexual violence. It's sexual assault. And we need to do a better job of picking that up one person. I shout out Cheyenne who picked it up both with Swallowwell and Platonir and has an

“organization helping to do that. I think we need to give organizations like that more resources and”

voices. And I've learned from her and I will continue to rely on people like her. All right.

You keep my cam safe, okay, Ralph? That one his third trip does not have to be to the West Bank.

He's allowed a trip other than to the West Bank. Yeah, can't come. It's nice. I think about that,

“Montreal. He's an extraordinary young man. He's an extraordinary young man. It's interesting to”

me because he's obviously his Jewish. But he is so passionate, so passionate about equal rights

for Palestinians. And I see this for so many of these young Jewish Americans. I mean, he's always

pushing me. I'll roll. You're not clear enough. You're not strong enough. You're not left enough

“on the issue. But it's just there's no politics to it. It's just humanity. And that's that's what gives”

me hope. Actually, that we are going to get to some pace and justice. It's not my trip. It's actually the young folks. And he's the one who pushed me to go. I appreciate you very much. We'll

have you back soon. That's where I'll come. I also appreciate those crystals and the first segment.

And we'll see everybody else on tomorrow's podcast. We got another big guest. It's a big week. Appreciate everybody. See you, Ralph. Thanks, Tim. Bye. The board podcast is brought to you. Thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Loots, an audio engineering in editing by Jason Brown.