Sarah Longwell and Pedro Gonzalez: Meet the Young MAGA Edgelords—and the One Who Got Away

Hello and welcome to the Bullard Daily. I'm your host Tim Miller. We have a massive show for you today about redemption and rebirth. Figuring out how to beat maga. We're going to do nostalgia with our feelings.

You guys don't know what you're in for today. In segment two, an ex maga stall where to once attacked my jawline on Twitter,

it gives just a second interview since Flithink.

So there's going to be some interesting stuff there. But more importantly, in first, she's the publisher of the Bullard, and she has a new book you may have heard of. It's called How to Eat and Elephant. One voter at a time, nom nom nom nom.

It's out right now, Sarah Longwell. I'm right here. Let's eat, let's eat, brother. Ah, let's eat. Some announcements, you're the publishers.

We're going to do business really quick. We added a show in Dayton, a benefit show, a fundraiser for the Haitian community there. That is in two weeks, September 25th. So get your tickets from spend a weekend in Ohio. Everyone loves spend you went to college in Ohio.

“You can find things to do there for a weekend, right?”

I'm going to be a Kenyan next week for the book tour. And I got to say, Dayton is lovely this time of year.

There's a lot, if you live in Columbus, if you live in Cleveland, drive to Dayton.

It's not that far. Is that that bad? Which some nice little hotels, little boutique? The board.com/events, I'm going to go to Springfield and Saturday too. So come make a little weekend out of it. I'm also live tonight on YouTube, watching JD Vance.

And this is Sarah is paying me extra for it. It's has her pay. I've got to watch JD Vance tonight. So come hang out with us and subject on YouTube and subject tonight. We're live.

I didn't watch last night because that was at the chance of wrap or concert. I was kind of getting blessed up. So Sarah, I got the juice, I guess. It seemed long and rambly and Trump is bribing people. But do you have any big, big takeaways from from last night before we get to the book?

I mean, I don't, I'm in a bit of a, you know, book tour news vacuum. But I'll, I'll say, I'm obviously, I'm absolutely addicted to Twitter. So I've seen the clips. My main thing, I got to get into placement on the phone. Is it legal? Tim, both of us very much not lawyers.

We didn't even ace the LSATS like JVL. But I can't imagine that offering five thousand dollars to everybody who, if for a publicans win, that feels illegal.

And now, remember when Elon offered a million dollars.

Like he basically did a raffle. But that was for voter registration. Like it wasn't if for a publicans win. Like if my team wins, everybody gets to go to the casino. So I just would be shocked if that is not illegal violation.

Yeah. Yeah, we don't, we don't, we don't, we don't, we're not going to play his voice. But five thousand dollars. He said, if through a publicans win the house in the Senate. It's a little strange because Republicans have the house in the Senate now.

But if they win it again, it's a bribe to vote for him. $5,000. Also at this morning, offering a new $500 rebate check for people. I don't have the details on this yet, but something related to Obamacare being bad. And you get 500 bucks.

It's the subsidy replacement, I guess.

“And on top of those doge checks that are still in the mail, I think.”

Yeah. Can't throw a coin in this out. Katherine repel. He had promised a $5,000 stimulus check via the doge dividend. $2,000 via a tear of dividend.

$1,000 via savings from the expiring health care subsidies. So people lose their health care. But we save some money. People could get a check for that. And other $5,000 dividend if they're away with the midterms.

And a new $500 rebate check. All those has been prepping promised. None have hit any mailboxes. And I love that they call it a dividend. It's like, oh, it's, if we call it a dividend, it's not socialism.

You know, it's not all the things we attacked Obamacare for the stimulus. 10 years ago because it's a dividend now. You know? Yeah. So we totally did.

He said it's just like in a business. You get a great windfall in your country. And you give people bonuses. Like he gave Natalie the human printer. $45,000.

Just as a weird bonus. Hey, you said something on TV.

“You and I were both on a cold the other day.”

You said something on TV that I actually wanted to disagree with you about a little bit. And it goes. But you aren't going to do it on cable. He wanted to do it here among friends. I just didn't get a chance if she'd given me another shot at it.

I would have come for you. But you were talking about how it doesn't feel like Trump wants to win the midterms. Right? It feels like he's doing everything in his power to just like screw Republicans. And I disagree with that.

I just think he's unwilling to do the substantive things that would put him in a better position to win, like he's unwilling to get rid of the tariffs. Because he wants to be in a trade war with Canada. He is unwilling to end the war in Iran. Because he doesn't know how to get out.

Now we're into deep. So the substantive things that would change the trajectory for Republicans. He's totally unwilling to do what he is willing to do is he's willing to to jerry-manor things to hell and be in a jerry-manor war.

And he's willing to offer a $5,000 dividend.

And probably deploy ice to the streets. He does want to win. I do think he is afraid of the oversight that comes with a democratic congress. And also with the idea that he's a loser. No, which I like, which is, hey, I'm going to take this thing that you said.

The other day characterize it on favorably. And then, I want to see my quote. Do you have the transcript? I want to defend myself. For what I said.

“Because I think that maybe it was saying that his focus was out of what was wrong.”

And he's focused on these other things. He doesn't really care that much about winning the mid-terms. And that's, I think true. I think he cares about himself more than he cares about whether or not John who's dead wins in Ohio.

Oh, that is.

That's almost verbatim what you said actually.

I think you like literally said who's dead. And I guess, and this is why it is a, it's a threat. This is a friendly debate. Because I maybe you're not saying that he doesn't want to win. But I do think he's afraid of oversight.

But I do agree with you also that like it's not because he cares if there were publicans win because he's like on the team. He just doesn't want Democrats to now hold the gavel on anything. I have a little bit of a contrarian point that's related to this. And so I'll, I'll concede.

It's your book lunch week. So I can see that you have been on that one. I may be overstated by case. Because he also announced last night said that he's going to be traveling around a lot.

“And this, I think goes against what a lot of the conventional wisdom was.”

For me, for example, I thought God 80 years old. He didn't get tired, jet lag. I just figured he wasn't going to do it. But he's claiming he's going to do it. I do think like the talking point you see in kind of anti dem circles is like,

we love that. Get out there. And I might be on that as a little bit. I don't know. Isn't that the best thing you can do?

I mean, he's dealt these Republicans a horrible hand. You know, he's, he's at the bush line. The focus has not been on people's pocket books, right? But like in a midterm isn't like trying to nag and control the people that are still tribally Republicans and devoting like kind of the best thing that he can do.

Yeah, I mean, it's probably different because he's president this time. But he also did this in 2022, you know, for his candidates. And it didn't work.

And that, that to me is the big indicator is that I've always felt this way that

Trump has to literally be on the ballot to turn out the people who are the Trump-only voters. And I'm just going to slip in a little book anecdote here where, right in, in my introduction, I talk about that deal book summit when I, we came and did a podcast right after it.

But, you know, Kevin McCarthy was in the green room that day. And he was screening around being like Trump is such a turnout machine. Like, and he knew all the county level numbers for what Trump had done on turnout. And I went and looked back at like my hometown and how many voters Trump has added to the turnout.

They don't turn out midterms. Like Trump can go hold the rallies. They might even go to the rally. But like when it comes to turning out to vote, they just like can't be bothered.

And so that would be my argument.

“But I also, to your point of like, isn't that the best thing he could do?”

Probably a little bit helpful to juice it. Especially just given the, you know, where the close elections are at this time. I went to everything this in 2022. It's like he's going out to try to help carry Lake or whatever in Arizona, which is a swing state.

And it's like that might be back firing. You know, going to, I don't know where he'll get the fort worth. And West Iowa and stuff to try to juice turnout. I don't think it's like really going to work. But on the margins, could it possibly help some of these shore up a couple of these red states,

where he won by 10 or 11 points. And we got coin flip braces. Maybe. And so maybe it does. It will cut both ways and something.

I'll just say like he can go to Iowa. He's way underwater in Iowa. And the farmers are getting cooked out there. And so like I wonder what it will be like for him. I mean, I guess they're still, I'm sure there's maga faithful who will turn out.

But like he's not as popular. Like as even he might have been in 2022 when he was like, Yeah, the election was stolen for me. Like what is he going to campaign on? I'm very excited for his entire painting.

That's right. He's going to give people check. Like this is it. And he's going to talk about socialists. The muscle massage.

Especially a scared about the socialists. And also, I'm going to put mass men in the street. Round people up and then buy companies and give you the money back in a dividend. That's a cash bribe because that's not socialism at all. Because we're really scared of socialism.

We don't want socialism. We definitely don't. So I'm just going to give you Trump. I guess that's true. They will go on sort of the anti socialism tour.

Hey, one thing I wanted to ask you about because I did see this.

And I just wanted to bat this around with you a little bit.

“Because I, I look, I'm sort of in generally enraged by Fetterman.”

But I'm also like, I don't know. I said, Fetterman was a bad move. Guys, this is like this kind of like dirt baggy. Whatever, just because he fakes what looking like a working class, like the downwardly mobile guy. You know, I was a big Connor Lam person.

So I've always just been like, yeah, Fetterman sucks.

But him going and doing this glaze of McCormick at Trump's Trumpopalusah for the midterms is a level of party betrayal. And like, I know he's got it in this head that this is like, well, this is country over party stuff that I'm doing. And he thinks he's a hero on it. That is the one good headline that Trump really got out of this Trumpopalusah.

Like the whole rest of it. But being able to get a Democrat to show up and say, we've all got to come together. I know that people listening to this podcast will be like, who cares about Fetterman. No one will take him seriously. It's a real signal to people that like, no, no, no, what Trump's doing is fine.

Yeah, the Democrat that had a stroke and can barely talk is the one that really connects with Trump. He sounds terrible in that deal. Terrible. And he always does sound terrible. I mean, he really, he should be getting himself help seriously.

“But I think that Fetterman, I have two thoughts.”

Why did it enrages me even more about Tom Tillis and John Kornin and Bill Cassidy? It's like, well, John Fetterman is just like having a tantrum with the Democrats. Like there's really nothing about substantive that he disagrees with them on them. Besides Israel, which on that to get to it. But like, it's like the whole Trump era for 10 years.

There's not been one Republican house or Senate person that does an active flip. I mean, some of them have been retired. You know, but like, it's crazy that it's going the other way. I mean, it's all of these horrors. And the thing about Fetterman, I like a little moment of clarity last night.

This kind of an obvious point. But I think that like framed up like this, like explains just how petty it is. If like you asked him, like, what are his substantive complaints of the Democratic Party? He said this in the video. It's like he does not believe in socialism and anti-Americanism.

And he wants to support Israel. But like his home state governor is the most emblematic Democrat in the country on those issues. Like Josh Shapiro is not a fan of socialism. Josh Shapiro is pro Israel. He is about to win in a landslide as a Democrat from his home state.

And instead of like siding up to Josh Shapiro and saying, Hey, we've got this tag team of pro Israel capital as Democrats in Pennsylvania. Like he's decided to tag up with Trump and McCormack because it's fucking petty in childish. He doesn't like Josh Shapiro. He doesn't like Josh Shapiro.

That's right. People have been mean to him. That's what it's all about. That's right. I mean, this is, look, I've said this before.

And Fetterman is clearly in a very narcissistic phase of his life. I very much doubt he runs again. He might flip just for like shits and giggles because it's about who's nice to him. Like he is, he is like so susceptible. And I don't know about people with strokes or anything like that.

But when I watched that video, the 12 cuts and he still sounds that bad. Like for people who don't know what that means. Like so if you have a short video, you put up a politician or you'll notice this. I'll give you a little hint behind the curtain here. You'll notice this sometimes when I do a monologue at the beginning of this episode.

We're going to go podcast and like it'll stop for a second zoom in on me or zoom out.

It's because I fucked up and said something wrong. Yeah. And so over the course, like yesterday at an I did eight or nine minute monologue, there were maybe two or three of those. Fetterman talked for one minute and there were 12.

Yeah, they're called jump cuts and they're used to cover mistakes. And there were 12 of them and then what they got out of him was still still to it and clearly like something is on well. And so you just think these Republicans like sidle up to him and love on him and man, hey man, I love your sweatshirt and shorts.

And now suddenly like they've got him in the palm of his hands. I was skeptical for a little bit of the flipping. I'm not anymore. It's interesting. So we'll get to see because I'm going a little bit the other way.

He put out a statement about how he ran as a Democrat and he'll continue to be the 50 first vote as a Democrat this morning.

“And I think that I think the John Fetterman like desperately wants”

to be the 50 first vote as a Democrat. I think the thing that would make him give him the most joy. He wants the joy. Yeah. It's to annoy the Democrats.

But I think if it's not that if it ends up being 50 50 or so I do think the switch is very possible. But I think he would love to be the deciding vote on stuff. And boy, well, people not like John Fetterman after that. All right.

Let's do some book stuff. How's it going? How's the book tour going? And you're an author now. It's been two days.

How are your vibes?

Actually, the vibes are incredible.

I read some. Before you go to bed. So you know what? I think JVL put it in the triad. So drop a review because suddenly there's, you know, a lot of them.

And they're from our people and they're lovely. So they do make me happy. So yes, I've given them a look. See, look, I want feedback on the book. I'm excited about the book.

I worked hard on the book. And I feel like it's a good book. Like, I think it's a fun read. And that there's a bunch of interesting stuff.

“And I think it was a good chance for me to expand as opposed to talking for one hour.”

Like, we do all the time on news the day. Like, my theory of the case.

90 second street wide JVL was awesome.

Packed house. So we had to tell their security that they had to, they couldn't stop people from yelling. Like, their security's really tight there. There's a lot of them. And they're like, if somebody, you know, shouts out.

We removed them immediately. And we were like, oh, it's not going to work with our crowd. They're kind of, they're into it. They're shouting. They're shouting.

And we love that. We love that. There was more a bulwark Sarah Origin lore in the book that I expected, which I liked. Yeah. I particularly liked the Sarah Origin lore.

Because I knew, I knew most of it. But, you know, it was nice to be refreshed.

And there were some little nuggies I didn't know about, you know, high school Sarah.

And then, you know, you did include how I was depressed when the bulwark got started. Which I was nice. That's a nice thing to have me mentioned. That's an, you love it. When your one mention is in the book is about your depression.

But, you know, that's, that's all fun. Do you feel sad about that? Because I remember I asked you before I said it.

“I was like, can I, like, was it fair to characterize?”

Because this was, you guys got to remember. Like, I do want to tell you about Tim at this phase, right? Like, Trump had won. You, it was really hard for you. And it was like hard to get you back in the game.

Like, you didn't really want to get back in the game for a bit. Well, when I came, it saw you for a time. Yeah.

It was like my buddy had moved to Oakland.

You got lawn hair. I was like, came to see you. And I was like, oh, no, oh, come on, man. You're in a dark place. But you found it's back.

Look at you now. Look at you now. Look at me now. I want to talk about two things that are relevant to the next guest on the show. And we'll have a link saying that obviously you just buy the book and read the whole thing.

But you discussed a lot of the kind of main. I think that listeners of this podcast know the gist of Sarah's theory of the case for the democratic party. So I think we can table that. I want to talk about the Trump's children's chapter. And kind of how you see the future going.

You know, because I think there is a lot of this out there right now. People are already, people like to get ahead of themselves are already talking about the post Trump future. And the book does have a section that kind of looks into where things are going. And the young magas. And even even mentioned kind of the Bernie Brote maga pipeline.

And the next guest kind of fits that mold. So anyway, what did you come away with on on that? Yeah, I mean, look, a lot of the book is rooted in the focus groups. And so we do focus groups with young voters all the time. And young Republican voters.

And I think one of the things when I sit with the chapter, Trump's children is not about Don Jr. And Ivanka and Eric, it's about all of the young Republicans who don't remember politics before Trump. Like Trump showed up in their formative years.

“And they think that that's what Republicans are about.”

And he's taught them all kinds of horrible lessons. Some of it is just like the vice signaling as a way to show you're on the team. You know, the things that come out from the young Republicans of so and so. And it's all this Nazi talk and put people in ovens and this edge lord anti-Semitic anti black racist garbage. Is like the way that you show you're on the team now.

And the people who are rising to prominence, like when you talk to these young voters. And you say, OK, well, who do you listen to? It's Nick Fuentes. It's Tucker. It's Candace Owens all day long.

They like Gates when he was around Gates. And so there's a when I say they're we're not going back to the older Republican party. I say this to some of the to some of the olds, the people who their Democrats, but the party of Mitt Romney was a fair party. And they were OK. And they're like, well, maybe we'll get back to that.

There are still a lot of people who labor under the illusion that we might go back to something like the Mitt Romney John. No, absolutely not in part of it is that this new generation is coming up. And they have been taught by Trump how to behave. And they're quite toxic. They're also not that idea.

I mean, they're ideological along the vectors of like immigration, race, gender, right? More than any of the kind of three-legged stool conservatism stuff that you write about the book for when you were coming up an ISI. You know, it's not. I mean, for better words in some places like they don't. There is obviously an evangelical element of it.

But like the center of this is not family values and tax cuts and strong military.

It's completely different.

“And I will say one of the big overlaps, right?”

It's interesting when you talk to young voters, young Republicans and young progressive sound pretty similar on Israel. Like there's like almost no daylight about young people. Like if you look at the polling for both parties, it might look different. But among these, this new generation, it's not different at all. They are isolationist in their foreign policy and their anti-Israel in their foreign policy or they have sort of the they shouldn't control us mentality.

And they're also oftentimes more populist in what they want. Like they're more economically populist. And that is why there is the Bernie to Trump pipeline. Like the overlap there is real, especially among these young voters. And they have a lot of money.

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And they have a lot of money. Right. And we are back. He is a writer and editor. He can find his work in common well.

“The nation, the spectator and his sub-stack called Contra.”

You might not be able to tell from that list. That he is an ex-maga. Do we do that now? He is an ex-maga writer. It's Pedro Gonzalez.

What's up, man? Hey, Tim. Thanks for having me. I haven't wanted to do this for a minute. You know, I've been on you.

I've been trying to get you to do it. You started liking my tweets and re-tweeting my tweets. It was a departure from how you used to react to my tweets in the old days. Yes. And it's like I want to learn about your kind of conversion.

And so for people who aren't familiar with your social media antics, maybe just give us a little like speed, date, origin story, of your kind of ideology and what you are doing and back a world when you are involved. Yeah. Well, I used to say horrible things to you.

And basically everyone who was a perceived enemy of MAGA, I guess the long and short of it is I kind of had a leopard eating face, mumble, but not really. Why did I help you begin? Because a lot of times we have the people that have like,

if you look at us in the never-trumper world.

It's mostly people that were like moderate, right now, squishes, initially, anyway. Yeah. If you look at whoever you want to say, the Joe Scarboroughs or the coals or us, the bull work, you know, there's some exceptions to that.

But for the most part, it's going to be with all in Republican politics world in the establishment. And so it's like not that surprising that they would, you know, be unhappy with this assault on the establishment. Like your story is different.

You're kind of more reflective of like the original Trump core. As I've heard you explain it. It's like you are kind of Bernie Broish. Yeah. Yeah.

That's familiar with this charm. Kind of then more appealing to like the paleo conservative, you know, side of things. Just more like an isolationist conservative. And you're kind of a young guy that had some.

Yeah. So my anger and like the Trump thing resonated with you. And like that's kind of the core of the type of person,

the Trump first appealed to.

And so the fact that you've accelerated on it, I think is is notable. So anyway, maybe just talk about kind of that trajectory. You politics and political discourse was late in the sense that I was.

“I think I was twenty twenty six when I first got into it.”

And it was also kind of on orthodox in the sense that it was something that I did. Because other doors would close and I didn't know. What I was going to do with my life. Basically, I was at a point in my life where I was really frustrated. With this one thing.

This one only thing I'd have wanted to do right. And in the background, you have this obviously this this growing populist sentiment in the United States. It culminates in the election of Donald Trump. And you know, for most of my life, I'm kind of just like an ambient California liberal with like somewhat and coherent views because I didn't necessarily think too deeply about it.

I liked the way that people like Bernie Sanders talked about Wall Street. I liked the way that he talked about, you know, mainstream being left behind. It made it very easy to naturally be like disgusted by someone like Hillary Clinton. And if not support Trump initially, at least view him as kind of like this is a symptom of something that's been sort of bubbling beneath the surface. Like people in this country very angry.

They feel like they haven't been listened to. And this insane like demented clown person is sort of like their tribune. So during this like really tumultuous transitional period of my personal life, the country was kind of going through one too, right?

And I basically looked at writing as a way to do the thing that I was not able to do that I'd always wanted to do.

And like the long and short of it is like I had spent most of my 20s trying to get into the military.

“That was the only thing I'd ever wanted to do was to get a career in like this this sounds really funny talking about it now.”

Like something like special operations. It's all I wanted to do right. It's a kid that was like I knew that that was a thing I wanted to do. It was to serve my country at like a high level somehow. Again, you can't talk about that without sounding cringe and embarrassing. But that was like the thing I wanted to do right. But I was born with a benign medical condition that was a it's a permanent decol for like all the armed services.

Which means like you can get waivers for some things. You can't get a waiver for what I have. And it doesn't matter like if you could run fast or swim fast or do a lot of politics or push-ups like navy or army bureaucracy whatever. It's like on paper, they just see this is a condition that's on our list of permanent decols.

And kind of like banging on whatever doors I could.

Making whatever connections I could. I was involved with like a different like recruiting pipelines that were designed to help people get into these these programs. But then when that door was shut there's still this sense of like I somehow want to continue this like mass cause thing that I had always wanted to do, which is like defend this country that I feel really attached to you know. And writing from a conservative political perspective naturally.

It seemed like like a natural thing to do again, this is like this.

I'm sorry to do this and be on the nose, but you became a literal keyboard lawyer.

“I did. That's why it's cringe and embarrassing, Tim.”

No, I'm very self-aware about that. And you know, this is like in the 2010s so like at the peak of like the culture wars are starting to really take off.

And it was so easy to fall into like the angry right-wing populist space because it's and you can also see it might early running to you like it's very combative.

And very confrontational it fit the thing that I wanted to do and I believe did it obviously. This is true, I think for a lot of people on the populist right and it's white so hard for people to like, you know, you can call it the sunk cost fallacy.

“But I think this is why it's so hard to get out.”

It's because it's not just like you're part of like a party or whatever, you're part of a movement, you're part of something bigger than yourself. There's something that's in an existential battle with not just political patterns but enemies who are not, you know, we're not debating for policy, we're debating over competing ways of life. And so as you start writing your kit, I mean, you end up kind of getting deep in I guess what you'd call kind of mega establishment world. I mean, you're a Claremont fellow, you know, you're kind of paling around with all these guys.

You know, like, you know, would exchange texts with JD and Tucker. It's just kind of like talk about that process getting in scourced in that world, you know, after after Trump gets in. It was it was weird because again, like a friend described me once is like kind of like a forest gump on the right and I just kind of fell into a lot of these things without necessarily like seeking you know, and so, you know, like how did I get on Tucker.

“Basically, I tweeted something in like 2019 that he or one of his producers noticed that I got a DM from like someone who had been on the show and they asked for my number.”

And then like next thing I know Tucker's calling me to ask me to come on a show to talk about immigration. And, you know, very similar process with JD like one day like he just just reaches out of the blue and I don't think this is unique like this happens with a lot of people on the right. I've heard from people who like are more familiar with the left telling me that this is kind of a unique phenomenon with the pop of this right is sort of willingness to just sort of use the internet and particular like Twitter as kind of like a networking platform and to into court influencers and kind of blurring the lines between professional, you know, I don't know, consultant or whatever and and friend, right, especially when you're working in media.

That was how I got sucked into that world and it was starting with writing in conservative public and magazines then getting picked up by an application called American greatness from by Chris Busker who's also very close to JD dance. And then like just from spamming inboxes getting published in like the Washington examiner, the daily caller, you know, doing this on my own just trying to get published and build my own. To get published and build my profile and then just like I said, like little by little getting noticed and picked up.

Maybe that's true that it's unique of the of the right, the new right anyways, that it's willing to kind of take people and just elevate them based on. I don't know there there are allegiance to the party line or Donald Trump, you know, it's a different factors right. And the left is a lot of sociology you can do on this, but like, sure, left is more hierarchical and it's kind of funny that like the rights rhetoric is is more about like the meritocracy and all this kind of like the left actually works more as a meritocracy and then there's more it's more competitive.

Yeah, there's a long line of people with resonance, you know, that could be a consecutive areas for these types of leaders and like there was a vacuum there on the right in 2016 to 2024 right and so a lot of who have to agree with the kind of fill that. So I want to come back to you're kind of salted a mask story at the end, but I want to just since now that folks kind of understand your back story, I want to do a little bit more anthropology of what's happening in the movement first. You know, who the hell knows what happens is Trump the next two years, but there's this inflection point, I do think that we're trying to tease out like this question of like what is like the act or the actual earnest animating parts of maga like what is part of just a Trump personality called, you know, like the example I gave in a pod recently was.

What are the central parts of the people that are going to not do what you did that are going to stay with stay and push it forward? I can tell you what I see and what I think are some important features of the movement and I think the two most prominent ones that. I think that's a very important part for like the average person to recognize is one race and to maybe to a less should agree, those sometimes it overlaps with sex and this is what I wrote about in the nation that a big part of the Trump being rights self conception a big part of how it justifies everything from abuses of power to corruption to total lead

Trump or is you know presumed success or vance and the way that people are kept in mind is this framing of politics is not just politics is you know we understood it in the past which is debates of a policy that sometimes get heated but again this kind of existential battle for the future of the country but but in his very specific sense and what I mean is and you kind of see this also with with the rise of people on the right using the term third role is.

“It's this kind of marriage between anti communism which weirdly enough has been revived you know like Trump is trying to kind of revive communism as like a threat ahead of the midterms but it's also being racialized.”

What I mean by that is that the real enemy of the right is basically minorities and immigrants and the white allies and that's kind of how the right understands itself is like war at war for the future of the country but but only in this very narrow sense which is this kind of like white. It's it's so funny for me to say this stuff again because of my background is like you know like I was part of like the radical.

Right and like I was basically part of the problem like that's that's the truth right like I was part of the problem I made these arguments.

I amplify them.

“And you know fast forward now and I'm telling you like the right understands itself as as in kind of like a racial conflict with its enemies and that that also like I said that also includes whites that's why it's emphasis.”

Like it's main issue is immigration but it's much more of intersection with communism is like this this word that is not very popular right of third worldism right it's like the third worldism and those type that types of communism kind of overlaps and then they're American enables.

Or whatever it goes beyond but I think it's important to understand that it goes way beyond like to you know illegal aliens whatever.

This is very much like a very specific kind of conception of the American nation as like a as like a purified white country against those who would stand the way of that vision. And it sounds insane it sounds like extreme to some extent you're like this is what like you know like resist lives were saying like 2016 turns out they were right but then you see like the the propaganda that's coming out of the White House you see like DHS. making recruitment videos using like white national assaults like it's not it's not even up for debate like it's using.

Propaganda that draws explicitly from white nationalist themes and and memes and things like and and basically winking at this crowd saying we are your allies and then obviously you know every week there's like report about.

Some group chat or some individual who has like some like you know like Paul and Garcia.

There's a report about him saying something like I have a Nazi street like and that's like super common for the type of person that gets selected and promoted within the jump administration. I'm not saying that they're literally Nazis.

“I don't know I'm sure that there are people that are but this is how they think of themselves and that's why this this idea of this like broad perpetual kind of racial conflict is central to the rights understanding.”

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I want to come back to the sex part of it, but let's just like sit on the racial and globalized conflict a little bit because. You know what this really sharp take down. We're talking about this earlier about how you're you are harsh or to Mike Pence and the bull work was I think when his book came out and one of the key points you make in that review is basically that like Pence was arguing that Trump became fully uprooted in Trump 2.0 and that you know there was some break between the real conservatism of what he was you know working with Trump on and and what this new.

And that's basically self soothing. You're saying that it sounds kind of insane to argue that the animating issue here is racialized conflicts like was that not kind of clear in 20 like when he came down the escalator was it not kind of clear from day one like talking about the Mexican bringing the rapists and the murders. There are elements of it there obviously and it sounds like in retrospect silly to even say like you know it's it's not.

“It's tough. I think that basically he was restrained by people around him. I think that his worst tendencies were restrained I think that he was bad then in a sense and he got much worse over time and also.”

In fact that he surrounded himself with loyalists and the kind of person that those loyalists tend to be the ones who are kind of obsessed with this like you know like Steven Miller and giving them more power in the second term. I think it's kind of like a witch's brew that amplifies all of the worst tendencies not just in Trump but in the movement.

So in some sense like I wrote yes that was it was always to some degree even if it was a last degree present then and it only got worse over time.

But the point that I was making there is is you know and again this is like for you know rich or whatever for me to say is that for people like pants it's like yeah I mean like. It's it's not a surprise that Trump was never truly a conservative like all you had to do was listen to him talk there were other things I want to include in that piece as well. I kind of make this point you know there was a debate that between him and Ted Cruz were Ted Cruz like slammed him. For endorsing like European health care systems the thing in particular Germany.

And Trump basically said yeah like I do think that we could learn from from you know health care systems in countries like Germany and Ted Cruz is responses like see is not a real conservative.

What people like Cruz in understand then is that was part of Trump's appeal that he was willing to kind of break the mold on the GOP orthodoxy it's economic orthodoxy it's immigration orthodoxy. And I didn't include that point because I ran out of space but basically the point that I was trying to make there is like for pants to say like well we didn't know he was too conservative like it's just ridiculous.

“Like that was part of why he won in the first place in 2016 and I think that for pants it's a combination of him like.”

Lying to himself or being misleading or dishonest or political reasons but maybe also there's like guilt there that's like unresolved. Because like I noted in that piece, pants is whole thing was kind of to be like a fig leaf to to conventional conservatives like look you right this guy's you know he's got weird ideas but economics is he says horrible things whatever grants but Mike Pence is there. You know if Mike Pence is there and maybe some extent this is true like he'll be restrained you know like Mike Pence would not sign onto this if the guy was terrible.

And I think maybe for pants deep down there's like there's something that he hasn't worked through there and like can't bring himself to to confront. Which I think a more contemplative person could have written a much better book for that reason and I mean like I know it's hard by the lake and you know I'm speaking from experience.

“So I think I think by going as far as you have gone it's basically the admission that it was all.”

It was all for not but actually worse than that it's a great admission admission that you're an enabler of this thing that you now identify as this great threat. Yes, and it's much easier to you know kind of constitute a fantasy path. Where like those the moment that they set up the gallows on the ball that like Trump broke from true conservatism. And everything that Pence was involved with before that was was a different thing.

Not even there by the way. I mentioned this in that piece like I had to read the passage like twice because basically Pence not only sort of downplays January six as just an event.

You know that there was the consequence of Trump's most passionate supporters is what he calls him. But he basically framed Biden as much worse in the sense that Biden's policies like his attempts to cancel student loan debt were a much greater assault on the constitution. On the constitution order, then what happened on January six, which is why he writes that like people that wanted to return to order with the election of Biden were basically robbed of that hope.

So what are you saying, Pence, you know, it's like make up your mind what it was Trump that was he bad on January six was he bad in 2024 was he bad on the campaign trail was he bad after he won.

“It's not coherent and I really think that apart from the obvious answer, which is just you know, I think he launched a think tank and there's he's obviously trying to kind of stage like a recon.”

He served of donors. Yeah, you know, it's he said, I know this crowd. I mean, there are plenty of these rich conservative donors that hate us at the board, because it's like, is it because they just want to focus all of their anger on the left excess. Yes, that's what the book does.

Yeah, and you go back to your word, Sue think you're like, that's the soothing thing to do.

It prevents you from having to kind of look internally. All right, I got to tell you that I am starting to get jealous of my visitors. Some of you who are watching the board takes feed may have seen that my buddy Cam Kanski was down here visiting me a couple weeks ago. And we're not going to get into his personal issues, but he needs a comfortable mattress. All right, these 24 going on 60 and he got into the guest room. The next morning woke up was like damn. So that he looks mattress that is comfy and I've started to think, boy, I need to be sleeping in the guest room more. I need to get a couple tips with my husband just so I can get a really good night sleep over there.

Well, I have a lot of mattress came. I don't know a few months ago, and after I tell you, we are super excited about everybody's come to visit this excited. My parents are coming to visit their five guest listeners. Now they're going to know that they're going to have a comfy mattress. Why are you denying yourself this JVL liked the he looks mattress so much that he gave it to his favorite child.

“But he does and he gave them the he looks mattress what more do you need to know you get free shipping and seamless delivery. 120 night sleep trial and a limited lifetime warranty.”

And it's a happy with he looks guarantee rest easy with seamless returns and exchanges. So go to helixleep.com/thebowork for 27% off site wide exclusive listeners of this show. That's the Labor Day sale. That's helixleep.com/thebowork for 27% off site wide for their Labor Day best of the web sale. Make sure you enter our show name after check out so they know we sent you helixleep.com/thebowork. I want to go back to where we were on the kind of core elements of of maga this kind of I guess sure steel manning for them like the more you know winning the pool in the tuxedo version of this would be like this fight for western civilization which doesn't include a lot of the elements of the founding when it comes to liberal principles but like is really more just about white white ethnic and and religious elements of western civilization.

So that's part of that fight and then the other element he mentioned was the was the sex talked about what you met by that are you talking about trans or women's roles or the right has this like weird relationship with women where on the one hand you know for the longest time it's been this this movement that conceives itself as upholding the family as like the building block of of any healthy society. But on the other hand in the era of Trump like I guess you could argue that there was a kind of like.

Shivalrous element to that position right that it's a kind of benevolent for patriarchy. In other words with reciprocal rights and duties or excuse me duties and obligations between men and women and of course if you're a feminist you're like well that's already bad enough like that's already implicitly very sexist and.

“and intolerable well the right in the era of Trump I think makes that look looks very tame by comparison because it's not just like you know the woman's true role is to be a mother but there's there's a kind of like women are part of the problem.”

Like how they vote they vote with their feelings basically betray us on issues like immigration because they have too much empathy and therefore women are.

To the degree that is possible they need to be deprived of agency they need to be kept at a politics they need to be pushed out of a movement they need to have as little influence of a public life as possible. And any woman who disagrees with that is implicitly somehow like contaminated by feminism and part of the problem and I guess you could say it's like not really surprised that that would happen in the era of Trump right like this is not particularly a guy who's down for. Women's empowerment. Yes yes and but it's just remarkable the how ugly it's gotten in I guess a second term like how openly the right like distains women there is this report about the growth and like basically most of the jobs I think of the last year have gone to women.

Ken Paxton sent this tweet he goes thanks to President Trump's leadership American women are leading the way in our economic comeback.

“Then there was this like huge backlash against him for that of all the things he can pack stand about like a ton of right wing accounts.”

One guy Joel Levin lost my vote and other you know making bash and what I'll talk about how he doesn't get it you know this is all part of the feminist plan to make women work and you know this is a huge disaster. If you just see I just a ton of backlash against him for praising the idea that women are going back to the workplace. And if you take a closer look at the data it's like it's not really like when I saw that was like well yeah I mean like they tend to gravitate toward some of the only fields that are consistently growing like health care.

This makes sense but the reaction from the right I think is that in that particular instance it gets it what I'm talking about this like psychotic.

In co-aid anger directed at women and I think like digging a little deeper there is kind of a philosophical element to that just what I alluded to that women are kind of seen as like on the one hand the what the people that are sort of a pressing man and subject to them to the long house basically this this idea of like a social and cultural panopticon in which women prevent men from really being men and you know are sort of a feminizing boys. For merely age and on the other hand that women are kind of seen as like the carriers of empathy which is a weakness obviously if you're trying to cultivate like a hard right movement.

Well you can't have women around who are like making us reconsider our positions based on our feelings right because then you won't be cruel to like immigrants you won't be cruel to minorities.

“And I think that's that's really fascinating important and under explored part of the right is this idea of of like we need to reduce the influence of women as much as possible for these reasons.”

So if you expand that out and you're projecting ahead politically and let's we're just assuming that.

Donald Trump has a need that like society wants to try to stay or you know like some of the more crazy tale outcomes but there's a normal succession race. What you would say which I think feels right is as long as the next standard bear from the party is willing to wage this war on foreign immigrants black and brown immigrants and their domestic white allies. As long as they are you know going to push for traditional gender roles and engage in the culture war on these fights where they prop out whether it be WNBA or Lindsey Clancy or whatever like as long as the right as long as they do those two things.

And they say Trump has been good like that's probably sufficient like that's mega right like they can probably drop everything basically like tariffs and whatever whatever other like land of Trump thing you want to say as long as those three boxes are checked they're probably fine.

“And that takes us to J.D. Vance and it seems like he's a good fit to make for that I mean the the childless cat ladies you know he is at this cutting edge of this.”

The eating the dogs and cats he's at the cutting edge of that he's decided that the true Catholic faith is anti immigrant because Jesus meant like love your literal neighbor right your next door neighbor was the only person you'd love. And you know so he's got the family issue I guess but besides that I don't know that makes me kind of feel like he's a better fit as a as a successor than some like pundits laugh people believe. What do you make about like rubio yeah absolutely look back at the killings of Renee good and Alex pretty you know and especially in the case of Renee good you saw these these two things come together race and sex like I don't know if you recall the vicious term.

The vicious terms in which Renee good was attacked after she was killed like these are not fringe figures it's like Matt wall basically saying that you know this this woman was like a disgusting lesbian. And you know she deserved what she got and like and again like fairly mainstream figures all saying the same thing like if she had been like a true and proper woman she would have been home with the kids and this would have never happened. You know she was like an up any person of course it wasn't even true right she was dropping her kid off at school.

Go back and revisit those tweets and you can see how psychotic it was like every aspect of her life was just like blown up and made into a sort of like a poster child for everything the right hates. And then it happened to get with Alex pretty you know not not a female but a white guy basically and seen more importantly as an ally of immigrants and therefore deserved what he got because he got in the way of law enforcement.

And in particular the acts Alex pretty case vans was one of the people who helped promote this false picture of him as an assassin right if you remember Steven Miller referred to him as a would be assassin I believe and advanced boosted that.

And then when he was confronted about it by reporter who asked him like would you like to like issue like an apology or like a statement to think pretty family and vans smirked and said for what.

When I saw that clip I was like this is going to blow up on the right because it's him demonstrating that he just did he's a cold blooded killer right that he's cruel that he's willing to bear witness to violence. So that the right can get what it wants and then smirk like the stupid reporter who asks him if he feels any sense of contrition like when I saw that I was like one it's going to go viral until like vans knows exactly what he's doing. What crowd he's playing to and like I can see someone like him being a much better fit as a successor to trump the mark a rubio like like I don't like rubio either but whatever you want to say about rubio it's hard to see rubio.

Steeping as low as fancy as morally and more importantly trying to wink at this particular crowd of people you know that includes individuals on the right who look down on his wife and his children because his wife is Indian is in laws or immigrants and his kids are mixed.

“You have to think about what kind of a person like vans is willing to try to court that part of the right that sort of looks down on your family because they're not purely white.”

You're thinking to yourself like I need to make sure that I'm sending the signals out that these people know I'm on their side and that they can trust me to be like the based torch bearer for Donald Trump. You know our all navigating this right and and JD was like one of me and then he becomes one of you right and then you know so he's moving different directions you know and then Tucker ends up having to leave Fox like it's your communicating with them like what's your sense like the way in which they're processing all this and like the path that they're taking to try to appeal to the audience they need to get to.

Tucker is very difficult to to get a read on when you're talking to him it's never clear that you're talking to like a real person.

“Is the best way I can put it it's like it he's always sort of wearing a mask there there are some features of Tucker that are like consistent but then there are other aspects of him that are really slippery.”

I think it's true that he's probably like unwell psychologically like I did this is like I hate to sound like an armchair psychologist whatever but I mean but like do I really need to know if you just had a guest on whether talking about how like algebro is like fake and like Jewish nonsense. And that it's not a real math you know and Tucker's like giggling as his guest is saying this stuff like okay so I guess it's not that outrageous to suggest that he's unwell I think it's gotten certainly worse since he left Fox.

If he was effective rhetorically of foxes because of his writers and the people around him that like hemmed him in and controlled him and once those guard rails were moved like Trump he just you know when insane or rather revealed that he was always kind of like out there and he's just very dishonest and very slippery Tucker I'll get to the answer like. One moment you know he's like I love Trump the next moment he says I hate Trump and this was him before he becomes a big surrogate for Trump in 2024 he's he's telling.

People in private he's saying in public that he's like well not actually much less on public but in private he's like he hates Trump you know he's like done which.

Trump family I mean like his biggest advertising deal I feel leading Fox I think his first and biggest one was with a company tied to dawn junior he's called I believe it's called public square.

And then he you know goes in the campaign trail he tells Russell brand like you know I love Donald Trump and you know he's also he's the peace president. And then you know he gets elected and then he's just back and forth right now he's off the Trump train but importantly he's promoting vans now.

“You know he's like guys Chuck's I was wrong about Trump he's a liar I couldn't I never saw that coming however you should trust me when I say that vans is like the real deal.”

And vans is very similar to Tucker and that he's very slippery like I remember conversations with him about. about this type of character on the right who years ago was was scrutinizing him precisely because of his family background like you know your wife is not white kids are mixed you know can you really be trusted to be like an ally to like the hardcore.

I remember him like just talking to him about this particular type of person I basically just characterized and this like racist libertarians basically this faction of the right things like there actually there's no real issues with like the economy there's no real issues with anything there's just too many brown people on America and like if we just have fewer brown people like everything would be fine.

“I remember like he was receptive to that this is like he was a receptive to what I was to that framing and then yeah I mean that was like three years ago and now.”

He's he basically said you know like he occasionally like when he's for like absolutely forced to will say something like I hate and it's whatever and that's it he's he's very reluctant to criticize that part of the right which just a few years ago was attacking him. He's very reluctant to criticize them because he understands that on the right it's called counter signalling like he knows that counter signaling could expose him as someone who's not really on board with the program.

“I want to kind of go over like as that's an interesting journey so he can see great advance.”

And you we could see this publicly and you're just like having a handful of conversations probably but like kind of grasping at like you know how can I ingratiate myself into this mega edge like through influencers that are like you like just not outside the bounds of acceptability right like what are the ways we can kind of you know how can I court them one of the ways that I can talk about this like it's a strategic thing like it's a little sociopath like it's a strategic effort. And it's like he goes through that effort and then kind of comes out the other side being like you know the only way to do this is actually just to go ahead and fully body up to the most racist parts of the right because like there's unless you abide by the no enemies to the right posture like I'm going to end up being.

You know Mike Pence for somebody else yeah you'll you'll become suspect you will not be viewed as like a reliable ally who's willing to do what needs to be done and I mean.

There's this slogan that briefly became popular on the right it was hard in your heart. It's funny. I like I think of it often I think it was maybe right after Trump got elected. It's sort of making the rounds online people just random influence are saying like harden your heart kind of like get ready for what's coming and Trump to point out.

“And I think that that's one way to understand that is that he that's that's what he has done in a very cynical way because he knows that if I want to be like the undisputed air like if I want to cast out any doubt that I am the.”

The true and only like Eric to Trump this is what I have to do. The one other thing advanced one to get your pick up running on is this kind of alignment with the pro tech side of things kind of AI acceleration and and teal again. I was trying to parse out what mag is and ends up being like you could imagine a version of maga that is like in a lot of ways Ron Paul was kind of proto maga more than some of the other stuff and there's some differences of course but. Like you could imagine a version of it that is like a little more libertarian and is kind of hostile to the surveillance state that maybe an air Alex Jones type of more in Evan Alex Jones vision of maga I still has the racism still has some of the other you know the conspiracy theorizing.

But like is more hostile to you know big tech and that doesn't seem to be what's developing with this crew they seem to be accommodating themselves quite well to the kind of Palantir flock AI world.

Part of my like introduction to the right was unusual in that I started by reading a lot of paleo conservative thinkers and there are a few things that. I'm really excited to see what he's been doing and I'm really excited to see what he's been doing and I'm really excited to see what he's been doing and I'm really excited to see what he's been doing and I'm really excited to see what he's been doing and I'm really excited to see what he's been doing and I'm really excited to see what he's been doing and I'm really excited to see what he's been doing.

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If you're afraid of the government in the era of Trump 2.0, it's because you're brown as the right would say, I'm not joking. That's actually the language they use to frame these issues.

Like hating power into your brown coat, like that's actually what these people say or that you're like insufficiently hardened to what must be done or the third is that you're like, you know,

“reverse of in some way or I get in the fourth to be that you're like your leftist basically and and therefore you should be scared because we're in control now.”

Right. And it's this complete inversion of the right to move toward the government in Trump 1.0 and Trump 2.0 and then again, like you said, like this this also this complete reversal and how the the right and how it conceived itself in terms of its relationship with the government. Going back to these like influential paleos who like like I said, like although they're obscure and forgotten, I think most most of them are even dead like we're very influential on the magamoo bit. It's interesting that's kind of like ran to now is the person that's like speaking out against this as sort of the whatever like actual ideological successor of that kind of part of the paleos.

Okay, we could do a whole hour on that and the comment just let us know if you want to.

We do have to close on Pedro and I couldn't have you on without doing this so get excited. I don't know. We want to talk about your, you know, you falling off the horse and all that.

“Here's the distance that we've gone to spend this 45 minutes together. Are you ready?”

Here's an exchange of tweets on I have five years ago. You criticized the young gay young kin staffer for having pronounced it as biop. I replied defending him saying seems like he's doing a good job. I don't know what's wrong. Why are you making fun of the gay young kin staffer. It escalates from there. You replied, oh, no, I've upset the jawless guy from the bulwark. I replied congratulating you on your conversion therapy.

You said you're actually married with kids and I'm in a drogenous creep adjacent to pedophiles. I said your kids will read this some day in crange, bro. You said I won't have to explain to my kids how I couldn't find a better job than being Bill Crystal's house cook. You went on to talk about my mutant jeans and I learned a word that I've stolen actually after that. You made fun of my physionomy, my undessernable male characteristics, and then you went for the jawline again.

So that's not great. I mean, you know, there's definitely some homophobia there. And then there's the famous, or at this point, you reference it a little bit at the beginning on the, leprosating face milk with you had or like the bright bark people turned against you. I'm sure for the Santa some links and texts in which you said some anti-Semitic stuff used the word negris.

That's kind of a long journey from that in 2021 to this in 2026 being here and saying like the main issue with these guys is that they're like in a race war.

“Like how do you how do you explain that journey to people?”

How much time do I have? That's what you do. I mean, I don't, I don't want to make light of the stuff that I said back then because it was disgusting and like I'm not just saying that because I feel like I need to like I don't know it. It's so difficult when you're like in any capacity like a public person that says things that public, you know, that are public or like as you said, my kids will someday read.

Because when you decide to go different way, it's always kind of viewed as like face saving or like assaving or

like instance here, but for me, like for me and again, this, this sounds funny and retrospect supporting to Santa's was an expression of my dissatisfaction with MAGA and not just Trump up with MAGA. And in some ways, I was as delusional as Mike Pence and that I thought maybe there's a different way we can take, you know, maybe like whatever you might think of to Santa's he wasn't Trump and his movement I don't think would be his is he wouldn't enable people.

In other words, I was already very disaffected and looking around myself and just being like what you know, what I've been part of for the last however many years.

And it became a lot realer for me when people that I knew started to amplify these attacks on the Santa's and his wife like the Santa's was a pedophile that he like cheated on his wife when she had cancer.

“Like I remember sort of just being again, sounds so funny, but like shocked that people that I knew is like filled travelers like wait, I'm like, okay, I get it.”

It's a primary, but like really like you're going to call the pedophile. You're going to say these like horrible things about his wife and again, it's like yes because he said that he did that with Ted Cruz right and it's all Trump. So that's when I became like even more outspokenly, not just Trump at anti mega, which is why I came out of the crosshairs and I got obliterated.

I remember the day that that happened, I was giving a talk to some like, I don't know, they were like hill staffers like young hill staffers about basically how to try to do good.

Under an evil empire and then like as I'm like giving that talk, I'm like my phone is like blowing up evil empire is like a dramatic, you know, way of looking at like decent right, okay. And then my phone's like blowing up and the blip art story has dropped and in that moment like Arthur Schwartz, don's you and you're like there's a coordinated push to just get this out there and. And you know, and the Tucker calls me and like he tells me like basically why it happened and who was responsible for it.

And it's just like who am I to become, you know, like public enemy number one for maga right.

It was just so bizarre that they decided to just single me out and destroy me and like that's the question that people will ask me is like why did they do this to you like not like you didn't deserve it, but like no offense, but you're not a big deal like so why did they decide to crucify you in a very public way. I don't know, maybe the most obvious answer or the clearest answer would be to make an example out of somebody like this is what happens if you step out of line and try to leave. That we'll do this to you too, like this disproportionate response like my wife who's not political at all was that home with our son and she was pregnant at the time, their second and she like held it together when I got until I got home from that trip and then she just like broke down because she was like for someone who's not political at all like not interested in politics and and she's like you know what are people telling me about you like like I don't understand why is this happening and.

This period of like introspection that I was already going through intensifies and the attacks continue by the way that didn't just stop at the right part. And by the time that Trump gets re-liked it, I'm like I'm off like I'm I mean I was already off, but like I'm I'm really off to the point where I'm like starting to turn not just on like obvious bad actors, but like starting to be more critical of people that were formally like fellow travel like Klamont based like now I like I think Klamont is a terrible organization.

“I think they have no principles at all. I'm saying this is a former fellow like I think they've completely sold their souls to Trump and Trumpism.”

But what got me to that point was Trump's reelection and then the way that the right tried to get people to rebel and cruelty like it's not just we're doing mass deportations, but we want you to partake in it. At a distance with like you know ASMR deportation videos and it was like very clear to me that it was always intended to dehumanize people, but like in a really unusually sick way even for Trump people right. And then the killings of Renee Good and Alex pretty happened and it just sort of like hit me that if that were me like if I were driving home and some like untrained like more on who works in the federal government where to like pull me over because of the way I look.

And you know like dragged me out of my car because he doesn't like a response that I make and then just executes me right there. All of those people that were cheering for Renee Good and Alex pretty to be killed would do the same for me or for anybody like this is a mindless dangerous movement. That is enabled by you know the present of the United States and I mean at that point for me it was like I'm not just going to limit like criticism to like people that again are like obvious bad actors, but like the entire conservative movement that I've impart of and I don't think can can be saved in the foreseeable future.

“And I think people in the here that and go though okay, but like would you have gotten to this point if you did not like had forced introspection via like text message doxing I mean like you're a pretty good question a lot of a cool stuff.”

Well, I mean like I said it started already with dissantis I was already kind of like slowly reevaluating everything including like the the nasty rhetoric that I've taken in.

Like it was one of the worst things that happened to me it's really like hard to um to I don't know if you've never been there it's hard to explain what that feels like.

Yeah, it's uh I still haven't only have gotten over it but at the same time it was good in the sense that it like it guaranteed.

“The funny thing is I probably still cutting on back like this is the important thing about magas like you can actually go like in their examples of this.”

Yeah, you know right for how they understand themselves no but for me it was like I'm done for good there's no going back burn whatever remaining bridges they are but but also like a huge part of it.

Not political was how I understood myself as a father, you know again going back to what you said I kind of just like was able to step out of myself I thought like what my kids be proud of their dad. I've been working back on like what I had done with like maga and if I continue doing that any answers probably no I don't think so and I've only spoken about this like twice one was with the nice people from the know your enemy pod and now with you which is why it's kind of like disjointed and like it's like pulling you know out of my guts but.

Now I'm very sentimental which by the way I think is good and I think there's there's a real reason why the right hates like empathy but it was focusing on being a father like focusing a lot more on my kids on my relationship with my wife and this sounds very funny but. I read the road during this time to book my format McCarthy made a tremendous like if I were to say that that book contributed to like saving my life I would not be exaggerating as funny as that sounds.

But it really made a huge impact on me and just impressed upon me that there was like there was no going back and.

“The only thing that mattered was was what I do from this point on and a big part of that is again doing what I think would make my kids proud so.”

I don't think that's false sentimental at all I when I wrote about the kind of the people that. And it didn't exact same place and I was moved by that but like at least me feeling a little bit like. I put it I was moved enough that to use it as an insult for other people and I was going to shake them as evidence by our exchange but like at least we wonder like why there isn't more of that I don't you know I don't know. Because I think that a lot of you listening and like a big part of what our project here is it's like how do you pull people out and it's like I don't know you know if some at some level you hear the advice was like well if you shine the mirror in their face and if you tell them.

You know if you call the names like that just makes them dig in deeper but then like what's the alternative I don't know if any any deep thoughts on that like how. To get other people to kind of reckon with the uglyness of it I don't think there's a formula that you can reliably apply to shaking someone out of it.

“I think everyone's different and like I said there are examples of people that were disantives partisans and were defenestrated and then basically apologize to maga and we're allowed back into Trump world and got jobs and Trump administration.”

It all comes down to the individual it depends on your character depends on you know your your situation in life. You know your other how do you understand yourself as a father initially for me like being a dad in a in a weird way like made me more conservative but in the wrong way because I was you know caught up with like culture war stuff and it's funny like I was actually talking to somebody recently said who like. He said having a child radicalized me and I said stop it's very important that you understand that like that you separate politics from being a father because I like I'll tell you right now that it can make you miss what actually matters and what what you should be focusing on is like not protecting your kid from like the laughter whatever like liberals but actually just being a father and being there for your kid.

As opposed to it becoming sort of like part of your overall political aesthetic of personality which I think the right does and I think this contributes to to why some people when they're attacked double down.

Now I mean. I don't know. I mean I think shame is is a pretty powerful motivator. So like I mean the things that you said at the time they didn't bother me but looking back.

I mean when you're confronted with all these statements like that it's like yes that they were right and so it helps I think in that sense but there also has to be kind of like a something that triggers you there's a. There's a neoconservative maybe erving crystal who said that a liberal I'm not sure if it's a.

“Yes, it's very similar to that. Like you have to be kind of mugged by reality as a member of maga in order to realize that you were wrong and okay.”

This is not a complaint because like I deserved it but I see cases where this is a type of story you see unfortunately pretty frequently it's like someone who voted for trouble and then like someone they luck gets deported. They say like I didn't think it happened to me in the response we like yeah. Yeah. It's hard for me to do that Pedro. I know.

It's hard for me to do that you can you could try to shame me though maybe I'll think about my behavior too that's fine I'm open that but like he also ran three times on this fucking thing I don't know it's part of the. Yeah, it wasn't wasn't going to be on my topics for you it was going to be part of my things it's like you're Hispanic like. I get was obvious from the start that he was going to be targeting. You know Hispanic immigrants and who knows how that ends and I don't know you know isn't it's not good to rub it in their face but isn't it also like okay hello.

I can I can try to address that question I don't I don't think it's I don't think it's below the belt but the thing about like how to respond to these cases of people basically getting what they voted for good and hard is like I think it's okay to not it's a funny term to use your okay. It's understandable for people to do that to say like well you got what you voted for you know I think as long as the possibility of them being allowed back into the like in the other side is not closed off because ultimately like you want to convert those people into allies into people who will help you vote you know this stuff out.

It's like what what what's the point of all this right that's what I do when conservatives privately complain to me about like I can't I this is this is really the final straw from you I can't I can't take it anymore I'm always like are you going to vote democrat. Are you are you going to actually put that frustration into practice and like encourage someone else to get out. Get yourself out or like vote dammer whatever and if the answers know that I'll just tell them then like I'm sorry then like you I don't I don't think you you're basically just venting to me like I'm not a I'm not a therapist.

It's understandable to kind of like do the no laboratory face thing but at the same time like I think there should still be a path for people like that to to come back in and help you somehow to be part of like the opposition but on the question of like identity I don't think it's unusual that. It's it's actually not unusual at all like there's all there's been a large constituency of like Hispanic man who supported Trump and in particular because of his not just despite but because of his immigration platform.

And I do it's different reasons for that. Well first is Hispanics Latinos are not a monolith you know like Cubans have different concerns and like Mexicans and Venezuela's and stuff Cubans are getting that good yeah yeah they are yeah but I think for for my part it's this idea of like I don't think of myself as Mexican American.

“I think of myself as American my parents immigrants from Mexico but I grew up very Americanized.”

I've never actually thought of myself as anything other than American and some of like my earliest experiences people that are like left is like campus left is.

And becoming really angry with them was them basically telling me like you'll never actually be fully American.

And that you you're kind of suffering from like a false consciousness and you've been white washed and like you know like you've been brainwashed into loving a society that hates you. And this is like the like the 2010s basically leading up to like the election of Donald Trump. And that very much influenced like how I looked at identity not just identity politics but identity as a whole. And then also like immigration policy because you you think to yourself like there's a difference between me and these this other type of person who's coming from like even

this the same country that my parents came from you know that there's some kind of a dividing line there.

“And I think that as when you're conservative it's easy to believe that it is that simple that that line is so easily drawn but it's not.”

And I think the Trump era has really just kind of driven that home like ultimately I mean it is true like this is part of why like even on immigration like I've my views of moderated dramatically.

Look at basically anyone who they view as obstacles to their agenda so it's complicated but it wasn't just like I don't know at least for me like there it was not just a sort of like what's not going to affect me.

“You know I'm one of the good ones whatever it was an actual thought process about the idea of identity and how identity is is basically a series of layers you know and and I think this is this is also really important because.”

For the people on the right and the left that are just basically trying to destroy you know.

Anything like a kind of civic nationalism or a common conception of what it means to be American.

“I think that's really dangerous because you don't get rid of identity you just scratch off one identity and the one that's beneath it rises to the surface and I think the most obvious one is like racial.”

Right and ethnic identities which is what the right is doing which is what it's done more and more and where it's arrived at now is like it's not enough to be an American it'd be a heritage American.

What does that mean well it's a very specific kind of white American you know and basically from there there's a kind of hierarchy of you know who is truly American.

“Well we'll do another hour on identity ideology and the tech right another time if the people with the people allow we'll see what they say in the comments about the Pedro Gonzalo's upset.”

I really appreciate it though I want to close I just want to do like could we just have a little jaw comparison to see.

I would like for the viewers on YouTube did just comment on who's jawline they think is better or worse you have a good jawline too. It's not like I haven't been thinking about that for five years or anything. Okay that's better because I was reading him his sub stack is called Contra and I hope we'll get to check him with you again soon. [Music] The more daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper associate producer Ansley Skipper and with video editing by Dante Dachico and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.