A Conversation with Jewher Ilham about the Plight of the Uyghur people

Joe Har, Ilham. She is an author and an activist and the daughter of Wiga Scholler, Ilham Dotty.

“In 2013, her father was detained at Beijing Airport by the Chinese authorities as the two of”

them were preparing to board a flight to the US. I refuse to go and my father said take the chance and I would rather use the street in the US than you stay here. He also said, "Look around you, this country is treating you like this. Do you still want to stay here?" At 18 years old, Joe had found herself in Indiana alone, whilst her father was sentenced to a life in prison in China on charges of separatism,

20 to 40 detainees can be in one small room and they don't even have a place to sleep, they had to take turns, 20 people stand against the wall and 20 people sleep on the ground and next to each other. Both Joe Har and Ilham Dotty are dedicated to improving relations between

“the Wiga people and the harm Chinese. Since April 2017, more than one million Wiga's have been”

imprisoned in detention camps, so-called re-education camps, where they are forced to give up their ethnic identity and religion, and require to swear allegiance to the Chinese regime. They have witnessed rape, also they were fed with unknown medicine, refused to have water, refused to have food. Unable to return to China, Joe Har and rolled at the University of Indiana, and as advocated for her father since his imprisonment. She has testified before the US

congressional executive committee on China, written op-eds at the New York Times, met with the number of U.S. government officials, including the former Secretary of State John Kerry, and received numerous awards worldwide on behalf of her father. In 2015, she recounted her experiences in the book, Joe Har Ilham, a Wiga's fight to free her father. Thank you so much for joining us today, Joe Har, it's a pleasure.

Thank you very much for having me, Aksa. Perhaps maybe we could start with speaking about what's the situation of the Wiga people is and the struggles that they are facing.

Yeah, first I'd like to do a little bit introduction of who the Wiga's are, so Wiga's are

a minority group. Majority of us will live in West part of China in Chinese, it's called Xinjiang, and I'm referring as a Wiga region. Wiga's speak Wiga language, it's a very different language compared to Chinese, it's a Turkish language and we use Arabic script and also majority of the Wiga population are Xinjiang Muslims for a long time where practice is long, but because China is an atheist state, Wiga's having issues with the government due to their

religion, due to the culture, and just basically the difference have led lots of problems between the Chinese government with the Wiga people. Right, how long is this been going on for? To be honest, it's been happening for quite a long time, sometimes things get good, it depends on who's in charge in the government and then sometimes get really bad. And since 2014, I would say the situation have gone really downhill, it's got worse and worse. It's a very shocking for Wiga's

two, even though we've been suppressed for quite a long time, but the current treatment that we've been receiving, we've been facing by the Chinese government, it's still quite surprising for that Wiga people nowadays, the level of oppression that we face, it's, have to say it's unbearable now.

“Is this happening to any of the group in China that you're aware of? Who is it?”

I see. The Wiga. It's actually not only happening to us at Wiga people, it also happens with other ethnic minority groups like Tibetans, and it also sometimes affects the way minorities, to another Muslim minority. Also, Mongol ethnic minority groups in China, they all face the certain level of either discrimination or oppression applied to Chinese government. Maybe if you're okay with it, can you tell us a bit about your story? I mentioned it in the intro

about your father and such, but I think it would be really powerful to hear it from you.

7 years ago, February 2nd, 2013. My father and I were at the Beijing International Airport, and that was the last time I saw my father in person. I was planning to accompany my father to

to accompany him and I plan to stay in the U.S. for three weeks to one month, just to help him

“settle down and maybe do a little traveling. But my father was arrested. The airport,”

we were arrested together at the same time, but because I was a teenager, I guess the Chinese government considered me as no threat. So they allowed me leave. I refused to leave in the beginning, but my father insisted that I should go, he pushed me away and said I should take the chance and leave the country. So where you confronted by police at the airport, is that? Yes, yes, we were locked in a small room. Even though we arrived six hours before our departing time,

our flight was supposed to leave at 10 a.m., but we left for the airport at 3 a.m. because we thought

if we leave in the middle of the night, there will be no police following us, which that was true. Nobody was following us until we got to the airport. We checked our bags. We got our boarding pass. Everything was so smooth. Everything was so successful. Until we were at the border control. My father and I were at different lanes. My lane went really fast, but it took so long for my dad to get his passport scanned. The staff made a phone call and so after there were a few security

showed up with a black uniform and tried to take my father away. I didn't know what was happening. So I followed them. They realized I was my dad's daughter. So they asked me to go with them together. And we were arrested and in a small room together. Until 30 minutes before our flight, the staff who made the phone call in the beginning showed up again with my passport and told me, I'm allowed to leave if I want to. And that was a difficult moment for me. I refused to go

and my father said take the chance. And I would rather use the street in the US than you stay here.

“He also said, look around you, this country is treating you like this. Do you still want to stay here?”

Still didn't make sense to me because I was a silly teenager who just wants to be with

her family and who never been away from her family. Also, I didn't speak English at that time.

I didn't have any money. I didn't know anybody for me didn't make sense to come to the US alone. But my father insisted and that's probably the best decision he had ever ever made for me. What happened to your father then? You said you bought it the plane. I imagine what happened to him? I didn't know what happened to him until three days after. After I arrived in the US, we were a fine way able to communicate a through Skype. So he was released three days after and he

started his house arrest time for over eleven months until the next year, 2014, January 15th, he was taken away from our apartment in Beijing. My father was actually taking a nap with my two little brothers at home. There were more than 20 policemen broken to our apartment and took my father away in front of my two little brothers. Where was the rest of your family? Where was your mother? My step mom was at work. My father was not allowed to teach. He was a

professor. He was not allowed to teach during his house arrest time. So he was staying home with my brothers most of the time. My grandma was out having a walk. Only my two little brothers and my father was at home taking a nap. Then the neighbors after they heard my brothers crying and they saw my two little brothers were left at home. They called my step mom and my step mom rushed back home

“and that's how we later found out that what happened to my dad. She tried to reach out to the”

journalist to tell them what happened to my father and that's how I heard about what happened to my father through the news. It's frustrating because most of the people nowadays if you want to know how your parents are doing, how your family members are doing. You just make a phone call or you just go back home to see them in person but I had to find out what happened to my family's on the news. I had to Google my father's name. You'll have to talk to every single day. Every single

day after he was taken away just to just to know if there's any new news. So I can be informed immediately. Your father was sentenced to life imprisonment after that arrest for alleged separatism. What

country, let's say someone who advocates for independence, but also besides separatism,

“they also accuse my father for certain different things that being an extremist,”

being someone who advocates for violence and those charges, those crimes are all nonsense because that's almost the opposite of who my father is. My father was well known in China and Western countries because of his moderate voice because he has been trying so hard, so hard to bring peace and harmony and to narrow the gap between the Chinese group and the warrior people has been trying so hard to use his knowledge to use his research to help the Chinese government actually.

All he was trying to do was just to try to help the Chinese government, providing with

even specific details to help them with making policies to help develop the warrior region. Instead of working with a person like my dad, the government chose to detain my father and sent his him to life. Yeah, so your father to economics, right? Yes, yes, but he was very into sociology and war. Right, and do you believe the combination of those subjects and the way he advocated for this

“change? Is that what led to his arrest or did the Chinese authorities believe he had extreme views?”

What do you know what the reason for his arrest was? Well, I don't work in the Chinese government and I don't know anyone who works there, so I can't speak for like on behalf of them. I only have my own assumptions.

First of all, my father was the probably the one and only wager who was able to

speak out publicly and criticize the government's policies toward the wager people in China, and also he has been contacting the Western media journalist. He created a website called wagervis.com. It's in different languages and those, this website was designed to help to create a platform

“for the wager's and high Chinese to share their thoughts. Anyone could write an article and publish”

their income, a tongue in it, and share pictures, and even the music, most of us know. China doesn't allow social media apps like Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter in China. Also Google is not a lot either, so most of the news and information the Chinese citizens have access to is the state back to media, which is very biased, very limited, and also strongly censored. So my father wanted to provide this platform for the Chinese people that is not censored, that only provides

all aspects of the story, but that's not what the government wanted. The government only wanted their citizens to know their side of the story or the story that they, they want citizens to believe in. And that's not what my father wanted, because if you only hear one side of the story, if you only hear one voice, then you will be biased, and you will start to have stereotypes, you will have different assumptions. And there has been stereotypes towards the wager people,

a lot of Chinese citizens would think wager people when they think up wagers, they think of pickpockets, non-educated, and entertainers who those people will know how to dance and sing. And they look exotic, they look different, and those are the stereotypes. And my father wanted to change that. My father was trying to use this website to let people know, "Oh, how beautiful the culture is," and why wagers are facing those social problems, and why why there are certain

problems, and what kind of methods and policies can be done to help fix those solve those problems. And so it's fair to say that his education and his advocacy was essentially used against him. Yes, has the website been shut down? In the beginning, my father used the Chinese server. It has been shut down multiple times, so my father chose to purchase servers in America in order to prevent it from being shut down multiple times. It's very expensive to buy servers in the United

comparing to the money it's more important to let people have access to the website.

But soon after it was shut down again, and again, and again, and my father's just just keep trying to restore the website and restore the website. Even though it's completely not illegal to have this website. It did not violate any any law in China.

“Gosh, I mean, essentially it went against their censorship regime. That's why your father was”

persecuted for it. Yes, the censorship is it's a it's a it's a whole or not a level in China, even if you ride a minute of the poo in China, you're your censored now. What is the international

community done to help the weaker people, particularly, you know, following your advocacy six years ago,

and the various numerous other advocates around the world who are trying to raise the profile of of what's going on in that region. Just last week that we were humorous policy act has passed the Senate, and hopefully next week it will pass the house, and then this we were humorous policy that will be brought to the president's desk, and also the European Parliament had given my father the Sahara of Ours, which is one of the highest humorous award. I do believe this award

was not only recognizing my father's work and what had happened to them, but it's also a

recognition for the weaker people. In order to acknowledge what happened to the workers, and also

it's since a gesture, a signal to to the Chinese government. I do know the government leaders in Western World have been reaching out to the Chinese government in order to let them release those people from those camps, and there has last year at the UN General Assembly, where your issues have been brought up. So gaining some traction, yes, yes, there has been some some attention, but there's still room to improve. I do hope there can be more actions can be done. Last

year, the US government had blacklisted 26 Chinese government officials who support the camps,

“and also Chinese companies that benefits from those concentration camps, and I think it's a wonderful”

idea, and I do hope their more countries can apply the same things. I'm not asking. I have to state this very, very firm. I'm not asking those government officials to entirely block China entirely blacklist China, or stop-corporating with China. I know it's not realistic, and also, I do know that the economy is a very important, especially during the pandemic, all the countries have been suffering a lot because of the pandemic, and it has effect the economy strongly. But

I strongly urge people can stop purchasing and cooperating with those Chinese companies. That actually supporting the concentration camps, or benefiting from those concentration camps,

“because you should not use the money that came from blood. Do you know what these companies”

are? Can you give us an idea? Yeah, there are a few companies like Uniclo, Nike, Target used to purchase cotton products from those from the Wiga region, and which were made in those concentration camps. But once Target learned how those products were made, they stopped purchasing, stopped importing those goods from those region, which I strongly encourage other companies do the same thing. Also, Volkswagen was one of the companies as well. There was a Chinese, there was a brand that I

really liked in the past. Now, when I buy things, I try to buy things that are made in Vietnam, or other countries instead of making China, because when it's cotton product, it's almost confirmed that it's made in the concentration camps, because majority of the cotton products in China are made in Wiga region, and the Wiga region is now functioning with the labor of the concentration camps. Wow. I don't know how much input you've had from your father about the conditions

in the concentration camps, but can you give us any insight into what it's like to be one of those re-education camps? So, says a year and a half ago, I've been working on a documentary film with a group of award-winning filmmakers. So, I was looking off to interview a few of the

to me. So, all three of them that I have interviewed have faced indoctrination,

abuse, also, they have witnessed rape. Also, they were fed with unknown medicine, refused to have a water, refused to have food. Also, for one of the camps rubber that I interviewed, cannot have access to shower during the nine months of the detention, and she was bitten almost every single day and questioned every single day. She was asked to eat a unknown medicine once a week, and that was only time she was given water in order to swallow the medicine. Also, most of them

were, their heads were shaved, and there were 20 to 40 detainees can be in one small room, and they don't even have a place to sleep. They had to take turns. 20 people stand against the wall and 20 people sleep on the ground next to each other, and every two hours they would take

“turns, and this is how they rest. I remember when I heard when I was interviewing those survivors,”

I couldn't believe what I was hearing, and my hands were shaking just by hearing them. It hit me really hard because I was so afraid that this might be something that is happening to my father as well, even though he's not in a concentration camp he's in prison. Speaking of the camps in a bit more detail, do you know the demographics of the camps? Is it mainly young people, old people? Is it families in there? Is it, you know, who, what sort of people

are detained in the concentration camp? All kinds of people. I do know there are professors intellectual scholars, doctors, soccer players, singers, even comedians. They've been taken away. Some farmers, some random person on the street who was selling fruits could be also taken away.

“Someone who has, who has a passport, someone who has been to a foreign country, someone even”

who would never been outside of country, but who has a family member who would be to overseas.

Could all, all be a reason for them to be locked up in a prison or in a concentration camp. It could be anyone. It doesn't matter what your age is. My cousin, she's only a few years older than me. She was arrested a few years ago for having my father's picture and his article in her phone and she was stopped at one of those checkpoints on the street. Oh, just another thing that I wanted to information I want to share that. Every day there are

checkpoints on the street every few blocks and there will be two to three policemen sitting there with a desk and having a device on their hands. They asked to collect your phones and install a tracking devices and those monitoring apps and their phones. If you refuse to do so, you can be arrested and if you, if with those tracking devices or recording devices, monitoring devices, they found anything they considered as suspicious. Then you could be arrested.

Some of the police, they just want, even they like the style of your phone. They like the newest addition of the iPhone. They want your iPhone, they ask you to hand it into them because they just simply want the phone. If you refuse to do so, they would consider you as someone who is suspicious and you could be sent to those one of those camps. My cousin was stopped at one of those checkpoints and she was stopped to deliver her phone. She refused to do so, but they insisted

“and found my father's article and he's picture and she was asked, why do you have these?”

And she answered, "Is my uncle?" And that was the reason she sent in for 10 years. Even though she was sentenced for 10 years when she didn't go through a due process. She didn't receive the due process and she didn't go through our trial. He can't even find her case number on the Chinese illegal websites. It's very common in the U.S. region. It happens a lot with other U.S. people. If they want to arrest you,

you don't even have to go through our trial. You can't be sentenced or just receive a note. And you'll be sentenced for a few years or be sent to a camp or sent to a factory to force to work there. You mentioned this data collection strategy that they have, which is stopping you at checkpoints, taking your phone and extracting data from it essentially. And you've also spoken a lot about the use of high-tech surveillance interests. Can you tell us a bit about that and

how it affects the week of population in particular? First of all, there's a camera. Just one street.

But I think the true intention is to monitor everyone's actions. It could even recognize you

even if you have a face mask on. Also, there are QR codes being put in front of every family household stores. With those QR codes, the policemen can scan whatever information they want to have. When every family members are required to scan those QR codes when they enter and visit their apartment or their house. But as a result of coronavirus, so it's not just... No, no, it happened before the coronavirus. It's been a while, it's happening for a while.

It used to happen only in the Uyghur region. But now it's due to the coronavirus that

“Chinese government, in my perspective, I think the government is using the coronavirus as an excuse”

to start applying these high-tech surveillance strategies towards everyone. The citizens can't even refuse to do so. With those QR codes, not only the time of your entrance can be shown. Also, the electricity usage, how many members are your family? Your ID members, your birthdays, your blood type, almost every personal information they can know about it. Wow, so I mean, in the wrong hands, that can be very, very dangerous.

Yes, yes, yes. And presumably, if you disobey that and, you know, don't scan or don't get your guests to scan the QR code before entering your home, you'll just be sent to prison. Yeah, you get reported and you get to send to those prison or camps or a radiocaution center that they so-called, radiocaution centers. You've mentioned that your father is actually in the prisons as a place to the

“re-education camps. Are the conditions in the prisons similar or different in any way?”

The last time I heard of my father was 2017, so I don't know his current condition. The family visits were Benson's to 2017, even though according to the Chinese law, political prisoners are supposed to be allowed to be visited by their family members every month. For my family, it was every three months in the beginning and it was totally denied after 2017. So I don't know how he is and what type of condition he's living in, but before when he was

first arrested, he was denied for food twice, each time he lasted for 10 days. He lost about 40 pounds,

just a few first few months. He was arrested. Also, he was shackled. Does that mean your stepmother, your brothers, et cetera? They haven't been able to see your father either. Yes, they have not

“been able to see my father since 2017. How are you coping in the U.S. all alone?”

I'm a very lucky person. When our first came here, I did a speak English. I didn't know anybody then the person who invited my father to the U.S. as a VISTA scholar showed up and he helped me out and he was a person who actually helped me getting into the U.S. I was stopped at the Chicago Airport because of my father was not with me. According to the U.S. law, since my visa was the family member of the actual visiting scholar, I can only be legal to enter the country if my father is present.

But my father was not. So the person who invited my father happened to work in the U.S. government before. So he had lots of connections and he was able to let me enter the country. And also, I didn't speak English. So he was a professor at IU. He helped me register to the English program. He helped me with learning English. He helped me with adapting the U.S. live. And I met

amazing friends when my father was first arrested. Obviously, my father was not able to send me

tuition or money. My friends gathered and paid for my tuition, my English for my English program for once a semester. Yes, so I'm really blessed and lucky to have amazing people show up in my life. I didn't return the money. I just returned the money later on. But yeah, it's just to clarify. Yeah, just to clarify, yes. So what's life like in Indiana, where there are no QR codes, I imagine. I'm not sure, I've never been to Indiana, but I imagine there aren't any QR codes outside, you know,

your college dorm. Well, I've moved to DC last summer, but I spent almost six years in Indiana.

a Bloington is a very peaceful town in Indiana. And I was born and raised in Beijing, which is the

“capital city security city. It's very different for sure. But one thing that is very different,”

it's going to school, being able to speak freely in my class. I'm being able to even criticize the government in my class. It's something very unfamiliar to me at that time, whatever is here. Also not having a, not having a bugging device in my apartments. Also, maybe I did have a bugging device in my Bloomington apartment. Maybe I didn't just didn't know. But in, when I was in Beijing, for a few years, we had a bugging devices in our kitchen, in the kitchen light. So it could

record whatever we were talking about. Gosh, I have no doubt that, you know, after this podcast

goes live, that, and the Chinese government will find a way to listen to it too. I'll be great. I have the, they are listening. They are listening. That's no doubt. My laptop now, it's, has been hacked multiple times. My phone, everything has been hacked multiple times. My social media accounts. I can count how many times it's been hacked. My laptop camera would constantly turn on by itself. My mouse would move by itself. It would suddenly open a page by itself. And I did

have an experience of being monitored and reported by students, Chinese students at in Indiana.

And in the beginning, I get really frustrated. But now, I just, okay, let it go, let them check it.

Let them get it over with, get it over with. So they stop suspecting me for being a national spy or something like that. At the end of the day, you're just continuing your father's work to an extent, and advocating for the week of people, something that they're very well aware of. A lot of people say, are you walking the path you father walked? A lot of people ask me this question. I completely disagree because it's a different case. My father chose to be on this path.

And he knew what he was getting himself into. And he got stopped multiple times, but he continued. He was a much better person than I am for sure. But I did not have a choice. Speaking up for my family, it's a duty. It's a duty for being the daughter of my father. It's a duty of being the sister of my two little brothers. It's being, it's my obligation. I feel like I didn't have a choice. The Chinese government put me under the situation. But with my dad,

he knew what he was getting himself into. He had a backup plan. He could have chose to be the wealthy businessman. He had a company before, and he was teaching. He was a well-known economist. He knew he was going to prison. He knew he was going to get sentenced. But he did not stop. One of his interviews he said, "I might be sentenced. I probably going to prison for 10 to 20 years, but I cannot stop. If I have to sacrifice my safety and I can't rest. I'm willing to do so."

“That's why my father said, "For me, I'm not as a great person like my dad. I don't think I'm as”

brave enough. If I'm still living in China, I probably wouldn't be speaking up by now. I probably wouldn't be doing all the advocacy work. I probably would choose a more peaceful, a normal life, just like other normal girls in their 20s. I probably choose to go to a normal university and have a normal job. Mary, someone normal, just like everyone else. I probably wouldn't choose what I've been doing now." Simon, you moved to Indiana. Did you ever

think I'm just going to leave all of that behind? I did think about that, but thinking of my father being put in prison for a long reason, it's my father actually did what the government accused for what he was doing. Then yes, I might not be speaking up right now, but I know my father so well. He's everything that he's completely not what the government said, and I know he's in prison for

“a long reason, and a person like him should neither stay spent one day in prison. So that's why”

as a daughter, I can't let this happen to him. If I choose not to protect my family, I think I will feel so guilty, and I can't face my future family when I have a family in the future. I can't even face my future children or my grandchildren. I feel too guilty for that. I think I really admire how honest you've been about the fact that no, this was not my life's

and you would feel eternal guilt if you didn't do it. So to sort of wrap this up, my question would

“be for young people around the world, or young professionals, those starting up in their careers”

in the human rights world, what can they do? What sort of advice can you Jo Harg give them to get involved in this fight against the persecution of the weaker people? A lot of people think they're

not powerful enough to make a change, or just to do anything. I received lots of messages from strangers

said, "Oh, I feel so bad for you. I'm so sorry." But then they move on. They heard the story and they move on. They don't do anything, because they think they can't really do anything. But in fact, there's so many things can be done. Just for example, the bill, a few years ago, nobody in the government even heard of, I cannot say nobody, but a lot of the majority of the people didn't even know who, who, who are that, and no, we were existed. And now there's a bill that helps the weaker people.

So, and how did this even happen? Because there were ten hundred thousands of people wrote to the government, signed the petitions, and called the government representatives, just to ask the governments to take actions. I guess where I am in the UK, it would be a matter of calling up your MP. Yes. Exactly. All of a matter taken to Parliament, just the same way it happened in America, and it was taken to Congress. Yes, yes, exactly. Also, you can write letters to not only the

governments, also NGOs, think tanks, ask them to host events to introduce who the leaders are. Also, right to the UN, doesn't matter what country you're from, you can write to the UN. You can donate to the fundraising events or those NGOs that are working on to help the weaker people. There are weaker human rights projects and it's a wonderful NGO based off researches. Also, the documentary film I've been working on, we've been trying to raise some funds. There's

so many ways. You can help just if their students, they said, "Oh, we don't have money. It doesn't matter. You can help sharing those links to your friends. You can help sharing information, can post on Instagram. We all love the Instagram, we all love Facebook, we all love Twitter. Just write something, and then your friends will read about it." And people have, they don't

“realize how important their words are. Words are so powerful. Why? You can tell by how many people”

have been arrested around the globe by their governments, just because they spoke up. Why? Because

the government knows how powerful words can be. I mean, and it's such a privilege for us to be able

to do that without it. It's exactly to jail. It's that great. Yeah, gosh, this has been a really inspiring conversation. And we're coming to the end of it. And all I can think is I really hope you're reunited with your father and the rest of your family one day soon enough. And we hope so too. You're seeing with the million other readers who are out there. Yes. Once again, Joe heard, thank you so, so much. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this podcast. You'll recall

that Joe has spoke about Bill, which had passed through Congress with overwhelming support from Republicans and Democrats. Since recording this podcast, the Weagle Human Rights Policy Act, as it's called, has now been signed into law by President Trump. This bill authorizes the use of U.S. sanctions against Chinese officials responsible for the detention and persecution of the Weagers. Or be it, this is this significant moment, which will no doubt send a strong message

to China. There remains a long way to go. Now, here are some ways you can get involved and help

in this fight. Write your government representatives. Your voice is powerful and elected officials

have a responsibility to listen to it. Support NGOs working to end the persecution faced by

“the Weagle population. Equally important is that you share this information. Without raising awareness”

about the plight of the people enduring the suffering described by Johar, it's impossible to bring about that necessary change. Please raise awareness. You can learn more about Johar's campaign from her Twitter page at Johar Ilham and also her Instagram page at Johar with three hours at the end. Finally, do check out the film which Johar has spoke about, which comes out next year. Storytelling is one of the most powerful ways through which we can raise awareness and

mobilize those in power for action and accountability. Her team needs help raising the funds to

In the article attached to this podcast, you'll find everything that I've just mentioned,

“so please do check it out. A massive thank you to Annabelle Hazlet and Laura Gallop for their”

help in producing this podcast. If you've enjoyed it, please share it with your friends,

families and colleagues, and find us human rights pulse on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram,

“and let us know your thoughts. Stay well and stay safe till the next inspiring conversation”

at human rights pulse.