EP06 | May The Best Conspiracy Win

Wow, it's with you for a year in the third city.

A couple of years after the high school.

“I don't know if that's what I wanted to live like.”

Streaming on the 13th April, parallel to U.S. is actually a new episode. That's the problem. And you're talking with the driver. There's no need for that.

I'm going outside for a second birthday like "House of the Dragon" and "Wicked". All of us only have two euros and 90 in the month. Streaming won't be so wow. Right at the start of this series,

I call the Lindbergh kidnapping the first great American conspiracy. And now that we've been through it together, sorting out all the leads, all the anomalies, all the theories. I think you can see why. You'll also remember what I said in episode 1

about what I think the consequences of that are. Just a little bit of doubt, and it spreads like madweed. You pull it one cluster and you find another and another. And another. Until you look up and realize the whole foundation has shifted.

“That's what's happened with the Lindbergh kidnapping.”

It started with a missing child and three simple clues. And it grew into a mystery that bothers many people to this day.

The theories split as they always do.

And each one took root in a different direction. There's the inside job theory. Maybe it was all about the money. Someone in the inner circle who knew the family's routine, knew the house, knew the nursery, and decided to take their cut

of the Lindbergh fortune by participating in a ransom scheme. But at some point, it all went terribly wrong and the child died. There's the Lindbergh did it theories. There are two versions of this horrible theory. In one, Lindbergh, while pulling a prank in which he hid the baby,

accidentally killed the child. Unwilling to take responsibility, he concocted a kidnapping story. In the second, more deliberate version,

“the child was in the father's cold, you genesis estimation, defective.”

And would look like a kidnapping with something far more sinister. Charles Lindbergh, controlling, calculating, the man who had gone to openly admire Nazi Germany, was the architect of his son's death. The ransom negotiations he steered himself. The crime scene he controlled.

In this version, Lindbergh didn't just know how the story ended. He wrote it.

Then there are those who believe little lending never died at all.

That the body in the woods was misidentified, deliberately or otherwise. And that the boy was taken somewhere, raised under another name, and lived out of life he never knew was stolen from him. That there are people walking around now who carry Lindbergh's lineage. This version never dies either.

Not we'd really does. Which brings us to what is now the unlikelyest theory of all, though it was once what everyone assumed. That a German immigrant, desperate for money, built a ladder, drove to hope well alone, got extraordinarily lucky that the family happened to be there that night,

climbed in through a window and changed history. That the baby died accidentally or otherwise, that same night. That he demanded and received a $50,000 ransom. That the marked bills led back to him. He was tried, convicted, and executed.

And justice, in perfect though it was, was done. Whichever version you choose says something about you. It says something about how much you trust authority, about how willing you are to live with contradictions and loose ends. About how willing you are to say, I don't know.

Maybe no one will ever know. Or on the other hand to say, I don't trust authority. Because too many times we've been misled. Too many times we've been lied to. I'm willing to think the worst until you can prove otherwise.

We called this series the Lindbergh conspiracies to point to the double meaning of the word. It could be a conspiracy that saw the wrong man executed, a cover up. Or it could be the Charles Lindbergh's reputation. And how that reputation evolved.

Fulls nicely into our age of conspiracy. In other words, because Lindbergh's extraordinary fame, not to mention his later actions, people believe he must have done something bad. Poppy is not in that camp.

and we encounter cases like this. It's called pattern recognition theory.

“Basically, we, as humans, need stories to make sense.”

There's an inbuilt sense of story. Even some say, if I've actually structured, there's a, there's cause and effect. And so when things happen like coincidences or things that don't have an explanation, our brain actually can't compute and we say this story has to make sense. And that's how you get conspiracies.

I don't think it leads to truth. It don't think in the Lindbergh case that the conspiracies have led us any closer to what really happened. I'm Joe Noseiro, and for the free press, this is the Lindbergh conspiracies. This is our final episode, made the best conspiracy win. We've spent a lot of time in this podcast talking to people who believe Charles Lindbergh was involved

in the death of his son. We're now going to turn the floor over to two men who think that Lindbergh had nothing whatsoever to do with the kidnapping. And yet, the two could not be further apart in what they believe happened. Let's start with Robert Zorn, who we heard from an episode one. His thesis may be the wildest one of them all. For the last 14 years now, I have devoted myself as a writer and researcher of the Lindbergh case

“and of the life of Charles Lindbergh. I believe that in the end, I will be the person who has”

brought most amount of truth to this story as well as to the life of Charles Lindbergh. I'm currently working on a biography of Charles Lindbergh to coincide with the hundred-year anniversary of his flight to Paris coming up in 2027. And as the only person who has gotten the story of the kidnapping right,

and in a unique position to be the first to tell the complete and true story of Charles Lindbergh's life.

Robert also has a new book publishing this month called The Lindbergh Code, which goes into more detail about his theory around the kidnapping. As I'm going to show to the world, history got it wrong. According to Zorn, the mastermind of the kidnapping of Little Lindy was a man named John Noel, K&O L. L. Or maybe I should call him Cemetery John Noel. What we have in John Noel is a 20-year-old man who came to the U.S. from Germany in 1925

when anti-German sentiment in America prevailed. He was shocked to find himself unwelcome in America, the target of discrimination in condescension. Where was the American dream for him and fellow members of the German American community? It was a mirage, a phony deal, as he saw it. And what was the

“best way to take revenge on America to attack America's most beloved and mired hero Charles Lindbergh?”

What better way was there to shatter Lindbergh than to kidnap his 20-month-old baby? Indeed. Well, the whole story started for me when I was a 22-year-old student at the Wharton Graduate School of Business on my spring break. My dad came up and visited me on my vacation. And as I was taking him back to the airport for him to go back to Dallas, he said, Robert, you may think you're old man's off of his rocker, but I got a story to tell you.

And my hand's tightened on the steering wheel. As my father was a very sober-minded, critical

thinker and it, and except in jazz, he would never said anything that was nutty at all. Zoyn's father proceeded to tell him about a German neighbor who lived three doors down from him in the South Bronx in 1931 when he was just a kid. John Noel, where my father at the age of seven was struck in the eye by an alcoholic uncle who, in a fit of alcoholic rage, punched him in the eye my dad lost the sight. And as a result, my grandmother would not allow my dad to play stick ball

or any sports with a kid. And so he's the kind of kid who is looking out the window watching all the other kids play stick ball and having a great time. Noel took Zoyn's father under his wing and got him interested in a hobby, stamp collecting. One day, invited my dad to go to

Palisades amusement park in New Jersey. And my dad had never been out of the state of New York

before he was one of six kids, he had five sisters. And this was the biggest deal in the world. So, anyway, they took series of subway trains from the Bronx to Manhattan and then free across the Hudson River. They went to this park which set at the top of the Palisades cliffs in New Jersey.

Lindbergh's usually stayed during the week. This is where the plot thickens.

“After spending time in the amusement park, Noel was Zoyn's father and co, met two men who were waiting”

for him. His younger brother Walter and my father knew Walter worked in the Delhi, Waltman's delicatessen, as 706 Westchester Avenue in the Bronx with John, and in a third

man that my father had never seen before. All of a sudden, the men started talking to one another

in German. John knew that my father didn't know how to speak German, okay? So, he feels comfortable speaking. In German, in front of my father, with his brother Walter and this third guy. My dad picks up that they're talking about some place called Anglewood. He also picked up that John is calling this third guy, Bruno. Then John does something very strange. He sends my father home alone. Having never left the Bronx in his life, Zoyn's father wasn't really sure

how to get back. And for my father, this was a bit of, I would say this was the minor child that trauma that he would never ever forget. Zoyn's father never forgot that day in the Palise. At this time, my father is the chief economist of the biggest bank in the Southwest for public national bank of Dallas. And he walks into his barber shop at the age of 47. Ironically, he had almost met here, and while he's waiting for his name to be called,

he reaches out for a magazine, on the stack, and picks up a magazine called True. And in that magazine, was an article about the Lindbergh case. So he's reading about an ace, finds out, that the Lindberghs, they had lived in the living with Anne Moro's parents in Anglewood, New Jersey. My father reads a little bit more. And then he's seeing how the there was a mysterious man in two different Bronx cemeteries, Woodland cemeterie and St. Raymond cemeterie.

And the first cemeterie, Woodland, where my father had just buried his own father in August of 1963. So he's very familiar with the layout and the surroundings. He started to wonder if the John he knew as a child was that John. Cemeterie John, one of the kidnappers, and that's when he asked

“himself a question. One that still hasn't been fully answered. How many people were really involved?”

As it turns out, John Noel was still living in Tom's River at New Jersey at the time that my father told me the story. My immediate reaction was to go down there and confront him,

which is something my dad never would have done. But it's something I would have done.

But you know, you're 22-year-old kid, you think you have all the time in the world. And as it turned out, John Noel died six weeks later. So I've been kicking myself ever since about that show. This seems like a pretty thin read upon which to hang a kidnapping. But Zorn feels that the circumstantial evidence backs him up. First, a photo of Noel reveals that he bears a much closer resemblance to the kind in the description of Cemeterie John

than does Bruno Hoffman. Caden said that the kidnapper had a high forehead, large ears, a pointed chin, and a fleshy development on his left thumb. That described Noel to a T.

Even the thumb thing. Second, he says Noel's handwriting more closely matches the handwriting

on the ransom envelopes than hopmen's. Third, when the man hunt for the kidnappers began, Noel left the Bronx and moved to Detroit. He also skipped town just before the start of the trial. Zorn needless to say, views these moves as suspicious. Fourth, he's consulted several criminologists who have told them that Noel's personality fits

“with that of a potential kidnapper or worse, a cold-blooded killer. Fifth, remember how John Noel”

got Zorn's dad interested in stamp collecting? Both Mary Ellen O'Toole and Dr. Craig Newman, who is one of the world's leading researchers of psychopathic personality, believe that John Noel was embedding clues in why then teenage father to make my father the unwitting archivist of his great crime for history. This is all part of a game that he was playing. There are so many things that no one has ever seen and noticed about this case who have studied it. But one of the things

he was doing, he was giving my dad stamp collectibles, including that was a stamp that was canceled on the very day to the kidnapping, March 1st, 1932. He gave my dad to Lennberg Air Mail stamps, including a Lennberg Air Mail stamp with what is known as a KILL mark cancellation.

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“There is one other thing about Zornus, you should know.”

He despises the ideas pushed by authors like Lisa Perman, who says that Lindberg was involved in his son's kidnapping. It has been said that this child was so badly deformed that his father wanted to get rid of him, or wanted to want to do an experiment, an absolute garbage. So these theories collapse very quickly.

I was the first person outside the Lindberg family to be given the honor and privilege of viewing

the 1931 Lindberg home movies, which run about 15 minutes and the major focus of these home movies is the baby. This baby was a peach, and this baby he lost his life at the age of 20 months and endured a horrible kidnapping and murder. This child deserves to be portrayed accurately. In 2012, Zorn wrote a book laying out his case for no being the kidnapper. It was called Cemetery John, the undiscovered mastermind of the Lindberg kidnapping.

Did it convince me in popping? Sorry Robert, it did not. Though to be fair, publishes weekly said it makes a strong case. To give Zorn his due though, it's quite possible that he cracked one part of the mystery, which is that the baby had been put in a burlap sack and was likely lowered down from the window using a pulley system. Remember, the latter was on the right side of the window cell. No was left handed, so he may have been the one on the latter, Zorn argues. He was, in other words,

“"Houtman's missing accomplice." There's one other thing I think Zorn is completely right about.”

There was nothing physically wrong with the Lindy. Understand, Betty got testified that he was in perfect health. An Anne Lindberg, in various letters that she published years later, makes him sound like any normal 20-month-old child. This is from a letter she wrote to Lindberg's mother, relics before the kidnapping. C Jr. is trying to stand on his head and look at me upside down through his legs. C Jr. talks a great deal more. He says everything after you. The baby can wind

up your music box by himself. He is more interested in the elephant and says something that sounds like elephant, but he prefers the gray pussycat with the flat tail to take the bed at night. So much for the theory that Lindberg did it because his son was a cripple of some sort. The other person we spoke to who also believes Lindberg had nothing to do with it was Robert K. Hill. In earlier episodes, he helped walk us through various aspects of the kidnapping.

“Now it's time for him to give us his view, which is, are you sitting down for this?”

The prosecution got it right. I asked him why he decided to write a book about the kidnapping. I was going to go to law school and I thought, you know what? This might be a little nice little hobby. I'll go down and I'll look at the original documents and find out from myself. 20 years later, my book comes out and one of the big reasons for my book was so people wouldn't have to go from all the crap that I did trying to find out what really happened because there's

so much evidence and so much documentation on this. The book was called "Haltman's Ladder." A step by step analysis of the Lindberg kidnapping. Put it simply, I believe that he put the ladder up and he climbed up and he kidnapped a baby likely put it in a perhaps sack. I say that because there was a perhaps sack found at the gravesite. Climb down, the ladder under both his weight and the weight of the baby broke as in the way I described

body as quickly as he could, some distance away. How could "Haltman" have known which window

was the babies? The house it was not finished and that there were no curtains on the windows, no drapes. Anybody with a pair of feel glasses could have observed the house for the woods earlier in that day. And Lindberg had taken a walk and she had walked right past the nursery and Betty Gallard held the child up to see his mother and wave and so forth. Anybody observing that would have been able to see that without difficulty.

Next question. Did "Haltman" have an accomplice? There's no evidence to prove that there was an accomplice. Could somebody have been sitting in the car? Sure. I can't rule it out,

“but I can't make the conclusion. Do the ransom notes point the Haltman's guilt?”

When you read the letter, it sounds like somebody who spoke German naturally and was trying to

write English. The really interesting thing is that the more difficult words were spelled correctly and the easier words were not, leading the police to conclude that probably the person used to germ into English to German dictionary to look up more difficult words. But other words were maybe he felt more comfortable with were mispelled. So they concluded right away that the person who wrote this was likely German. Do you think Condon could have been involved in the kidnapping?

I found no evidence that shows me that Condon had anything to do with it. He was a local busy body. What about the fact that Condon didn't identify "Haltman" in the line-up? If you accept what Condon offered in his trial testimony, then there's no doubt. It's "Haltman." The biggest problem with Condon is why didn't he identify

“"Haltman" when he went in for the line-up? He says on his book that he knew right away it was.”

And then he gives a story about, "Well, I didn't think it was fair." Not sense. I had nothing to do with him thinking it was fair. And this is speculation to some extent.

But my reading of it and my conclusion of it is always been, "I've always thought that Condon

did recognize him, but didn't just want to say that's the guy and then walk out because then, "Okay, he'll come back at trial, but where's the glory for him?" There's also that key clue to Chisel. As for why he brought the Chisel, that's all guesswork, I think it was more like a to force a window if he had to, which there goes the idea of my mind of an inside job if you accept that because the window was not locked. It couldn't lock.

That particular one. And if he knew that, why would he bring the Chisel? This he's think there's even a possibility that Lindberg was involved in the kidnapping, and maybe even the death of his son.

“The idea that Lindberg did it is Asinine. It shows by a research. Here's the thing.”

Was Lindberg interested in you, Genics? Yes. And you know what relevance that has in the case? Not a. Nothing. I don't have any respect for people who write that Lindberg did it. I just don't. Okay. It's like saying, Lindberg still believe in Santa Claus. Well, that must mean that Santa Claus came and took the child. It's the same illogical jump in logic. I don't have any respect for people who write that Lindberg did it. I just don't. But the clincher for K Hill is the

ladder. To him, the ladder proves without a doubt that Haupman did it. It isn't unusual ladder in that it is not the type of ladder you would use for construction. However, it is a ladder that is built to be relatively lightweight that collapses in on itself so that it can be carried around relatively easy. And the gaps in the rungs would be no good for me. I'm only five foot eight, but for Haupman who was much taller and had long legs it worked for him. It was

cleverly designed. Naturally, Poppy and I decided we had to see the ladder for ourselves. It's held on display at the New Jersey State Police Museum. Although at his trial, Haupman claimed that no decent carpenter would ever build a ladder like that. That was clearly not the case. I have to say, the two things that struck me is it definitely is a very professionally made ladder. I mean, I get that it's made from scrap wood, but it's not, I can see how it's got

thought behind it. There's bits sectioned out. It's actually quite complicated that it folds into three pieces. It's not just a piece of shit that he tried to claim later. That is very true. It is a weirdly complex piece. It's a three-section wooden ladder built from four different types of wood. But it also had a hook at the top that some thought might be used to latch onto the window. At Haupman's trial, prosecutors made much of the fact that a piece of the ladder.

The infamous rail 16 came from Haupman's attic. K Hill found that awfully convincing. There cannot be a rational argument that he wasn't involved because how do you explain that rail 16 came from his attic when it scientifically clearly does? And he told us, Haupman left the ladder behind for the simplest of reasons. It broke. When somebody went down the ladder and was carrying a sandbag that approximated the weight of the child, the replica

with a loud crack, you don't know if somebody heard it. And so, I think at that point,

“Haupman took off. There's one thing that could put all of this to rest, a DNA test of the ransom”

notes, particularly the one left on the window ledge that night. That could only have been left

by the kidnopper. The person who's trying to make that happen is Kirk Perhatch, the lawyer who first

got interested in the law because of his fascination with Haupman's trial. He's been embroiled and litigation with the New Jersey State Police Museum trying to force officials to test the DNA. So far, he has not succeeded but the fight's not over yet. The legal battle has actually been going on since 2022. Before he sued, Kirk tried to persuade the State Police to voluntarily do DNA testing on the ransom notes, but those conversations went nowhere. The DNA testing of the

ransom note is an idea that had been floating around for quite some time. In 2003, there was a woman

“from Florida who asked the State of New Jersey to do a DNA analysis of the evidence that when”

nowhere the State of New Jersey said, "No, thank you." In the mid 2000s, it came up again. One or two people asked, "Hey, how come we're not going to do DNA testing of this?" PBS and Nova did a documentary in 2010, 2011, where they asked the same thing. They were shot down with no answer and no explanation at all. Kirk then asked the New Jersey Attorney General about it during COVID. Like most of us, I had a lot of extra time on my hands and I started making calls and looking at things again

from a new perspective. I've known the New Jersey Attorney General since 2016. I'd consider us at least acquaintances if not friends. I reached out to him directly and I thought, "Let me just

ask him directly. Why can't we first of all, can I do some DNA testing if I get the right people

involved?" He said, "Let me get back to you." Many, many, many months go by. I don't hear anything back. Hey, just curious. Yeah, no, Kirk's not going to happen. So in September 2022, he filed his first lawsuit with a researcher named Margaret Sudecker as the plaintiff. A woman who'd spent a decade volunteering at the very museum she was now suing. Margaret Sudecker has a senior citizen and spent many years volunteering over a decade of her life helping to inventory an archive to state police

files of over 2,025,000 piece of paper. She spent most two days there for over 10 years. Four months later, the case got thrown out on a technicality and the appeal failed too. But Kirk was able to file a new lawsuit in April 2025 because three other interested parties reached out to Kirk to be part of a new suit as plaintiffs. Kirk's brief ran to 200 pages. That one lost a trial in July 2025. Kirk's appeal is going to be heard sometime in 2026.

Poppy has been to one of the court dates and it's often a large crowd. There's no reason why the times were living in today we should not be able to re-examine older cases to see if just this happened in the interest of transparency for the public and for the history books. A big part of Kirk's argument is that in 1981, then Governor Brendan Burn ordered all the Lindberg evidence to be made available to the public. DNA testing didn't become possible until

the mid-80s. Kirk says that if DNA testing had been around when Burn signed his order, it surely would have been done. Because DNA testing is in the spirit of that order. By the way, Governor Burn personally believed hotman was involved, but acted with an accomplice. The statement while has argued that DNA testing would damage the envelopes. Kirk told me that's laughable. First of all, there's 10 stamps where it's really easy to take

a little needle and swipe underneath the stamp. It's really easy to get under some of this paper, which some of it's not even attached together. It wouldn't even damage or hurt anything, and they just said no. I asked Kirk, "What do you thought DNA testing would show?"

“I think it's more likely than not that at least one of those pieces of paper does not have”

how it moves DNA on them. But would DNA testing and the conspiracies

could give a firm maybe? The argument that people are going to say you're never going to be happy

is to me falls on deaf ears because this was one of these things that it's

There are so many odd things that happen to it, and it's frankly a shame that the last

probably 40, 50, 60 years of Americans who didn't live through it don't really know much about it because it's such a fascinating story. The argument that I would make there is that

“I think that the only way to get real justice here is to find out out of these 225,000 pieces of paper,”

the 15 or so that might have tangible DNA should be examined, should be tested, and if Houtman's DNA is on those 15 pieces of paper, great. I think that the group that I've known now for 20 plus years, that have studied every single facet of this case, I think that they would be very happy that justice happened, that this thing is probably done.

Here's Nicolespi. We're always at a stage where the science now is finally perfect and good,

whereas in the past it was hazy and bad, but now we had fingerprinting and now we have DNA, and it's perfect except in the case that brought DNA testing, and it's an absolute superiority, anything else, and its infallibility is all built around the fact that DNA testing throw it out, because it's always taken under bad circumstances, same with fingerprints, with the latter in the floorboards, it is kind of like handwriting analysis and other things. Like the same people

can look at this and plausibly come to very different conclusions. So, you know, you were constantly shifting in and out of the certitude that science will bring and it will

project us to a place of pure information, and pure justice, and all of that, and it always is,

it's just eroding at the more we look at it. It's just a superior. The New Jersey State Police Museum shut off access to all the Lindberg evidence, despite Governor Burns' executive order. It is now reopened to researchers, but by appointment only.

“What causes people to become wrapped up in conspiracy theories?”

With Lindberg, a lot of it, no doubt, is due to the fact that the official story is so full of gaps. But there's also something else going on, something rooted in the American psyche. Where I have Frederick's, the author of the Lindberg Nanny, is another person who thinks Lindberg was not involved. She thinks all these Lindberg conspiracies are simply a product of our time. Certainly, a desire to grapple with the evil side of UGMX, I think, has went people to really

wanna delve into that side of Lindberg's personality. The reason that I argue against Lindberg being guilty is not because I am any interesting redeeming the reputation of Charles Lindberg or minimizing or normalizing what he did and said, it's because I feel like we're becoming sloppy and how we process information that we're given and we're not asking ourselves, what is the source? Has this been well documented? As we see with recent events in accusing immigrants in Ohio

of eating pets, people are becoming quite shameless about the stories that they will just simply

“put out there as part of the narrative. And I think it is important to really look at the actual”

factual evidence and not just say yes, this does fit into my vision of good angle even on how it works in the world. I think the belief in conspiracy theories is in a central way of making sense of a world where horrible things happen. That's Nick Lesby again and you know, the big issue of this is with JFK. How could nobody likely Harvey Oswald topple this grand champion of everything good about American, everything good about the Cold War and everything positive? We can't live with that

thought and so we look for conspiracies to explain what is otherwise obvious, but tragic or very disturbing and a Muslim life. Is wife Sarah Siskin as a few thoughts as well? Who doesn't hit their dad? You know, Lindbergd Terrible dude, we got to tear him down. It's like the loss of childhood innocence. It's like the perfect Shakespearean drama, the ogre father, you know, who kills his children. I think it's, you know, it's just, it's a manifestation of our own internal damage.

So it's like the Etapus complex on a, you know, cosmological level. Yeah, I think there's also something about conspiracy theory, particularly in today's world where everybody is a conspiracyist.

At some point you have to call it a day and get on with your life and the people who don't,

you know, end up being stuck and depending on who they are and where they're from and what they're hiding from. They might get stuck on Lindbergd or the Rosenbergs or O. J. or J. F. K. So I suppose the time has come for Poppy and I to come clean. Poppy lines up with Richard Kale. She has come to believe that Hopman was the soul kidnapped. Hopman had advanced some money and to me that's the only concrete thing you can say. So we know

at the very least he was the extortionist, whether he was the kidnapper is harder to prove, but I do think that it's the most likely. And to be really honest, it's hard for me to get into any camp that posits a conspiracy that doesn't have more evidence. Poppy has another reason for wanting to believe in Hopman's guilt. And to be honest, I ended up thinking that Bruno did it because

part of me can sleep easier at night if the right man was executed and I don't believe in the death penalty,

but I do think that I hope that it was him. And I ultimately think that Kale

kind of had an answer for everything. Me, I came away convinced that there's simply no way one person could have done this by himself. The likelihood that someone working in a Lindbergh household was involved is high on my list of possibilities. Remember, the investigators assumed that they were looking for a team of kidnappers before they stumbled upon Hopman. Once they had him, the game was this.

“How quickly could they get him to the electric chair to satisfy the public's thirst for revenge?”

Was Lindbergh involved? Given how inexplicable so many of his actions were in the days and weeks after the kidnapping, I don't think it's a crazy notion. Though I must say, the idea that he killed his baby and Dr. Karel's lab is a bridge too far from me. Complex cases aren't just full of evidence. They're full of noise, red herrings, coincidences, human error, things that look like threads but lead nowhere. And the more you dig, the more you disturb the ground looking for the root,

the more the not weed spreads. The Lindbergh case will never be fully resolved, not to everyone's satisfaction.

The doubt that surrounds it is baked into so much of the way we think about American history now. And that is unlikely to change anytime soon. Lindbergh conspiracies was written by me, Joe Noceira, and Poppy Damon. The producer was Poppy Damon. Original music, including the seam song, was composed by Toby Matamong. Sound design, scoring, and mixing was by John Scott. Our wonderful assisted producers were Bobby

Moriarty, Monica Ricks, and Adam Feldman. Well, disclosure, I am not a conspiracy theory guy, so I feel like I have to say it's how it's happened, but even I will say, I do wonder how he did

“all of that by himself. Fact-taking was by Noah Bernstein. I think it was Hottman and Fish and a group”

and I think Hottman's the Fall Guy. The series was commissioned by Kira Noonen and Alex Chitty. The head of audio and video at the free press is Yana Kuzlauski. I don't have a theory on exactly what happened, but I think Charles and Berg was involved. Additional editorial support came from our team at the free press, Kira Boyer. I think the mob did it. Franny Block. I think somebody in that house had to be involved, and frankly I think Lindbergh was involved. One of the thoughts I had

was his wife had an affair later in their relationship. What if she had one before and maybe little Indy wasn't actually Lindbergh's baby? Emily Yoffie. I am haunted by the fact that Charles Lindbergh approached Aviator, a doored by millions, who's a prankster who once played the terrible prank of hiding his baby and pretending he was missing. Could Lindbergh have done it again? Only this time

“it resulted in the tragic death of Little Lindy and spawned a cover-up? Lucy Bigger's. I think”

Bruno did it, and probably caught out from some of the inside. Maybe the Butler? Katherine Morrisett. There's a reason people say follow the money, and so I think it's probably is it or fish, but man with the money. And Jeff Lubitt. Lindbergh was involved. Studio operations by Avery Block and Kobe Quaynone. Our actors were Stephen Gay, Wayne Legant, Robert Camp, Hannah Cant, and Kate Dilsuch. Much of our research came from the books we cited

head over to the CBS post more in podcast where you can hear me talk about the case and about

“the making of this show. And one other thing. If you like this podcast, please consider becoming”

a subscriber to the free press. And leaving us a five-store review.

The show is very good. It's very good. Hold your money to her. With Wieson Steuer.