He's Turning On You

Really? I think my story is totally different.

“Steuere, how do you feel? How do you feel about the story?”

Yes, I feel about 1000 euros. Do you have your own connections? No, just like Steuere. Wow! And that's really cool. The market is almost all automatic.

Clearly, I feel like I'm so exciting. Hold your money, Ty from a Span, with like Steuere. It's January. 1997, about 7 months since Angie Dodge was brutally murdered at knife point. For months, police have had no solid leads.

No suspects in Angie's murder.

They talked to dozens of local Idaho Falls residents, collecting DNA samples, chasing tips,

“but it hadn't brought them any closer to solving this case.”

Until they got word about an arrest in Nevada, for sexual assault. Idaho Falls investigators were told by Nevada police that the alleged perpetrator held a knife to the victim's throat. To detectives, this detail, about the knife, seemed similar to Angie's murder.

They made the trip to speak with the man in custody. Okay. How did you know, Angie? She's very good friend of mine.

You guys used to hang around together.

Because he also happened to be a friend of Angie Dodge. His name is Ben Hobbs. Just seven months earlier, Ben had been at Angie's funeral. A 24-year-old with short blonde hair and a mustache. Ben had carried a flower arrangement in the processional line,

wearing jeans and a checkered shirt. Now, he's sitting in front of Idaho Falls investigators in an orange prison jumpsuit. And investigators tell him something shocking. One of his friends told police that Ben had something to do with Angie's death.

We've got Chris that we need to know about it and implicating your own sight. It's just you again. He's got details about what happened. I know you did it. Then what went on? Chris, as in Chris Tap, who you heard talking to police in the last episode. Chris is someone Ben thought was a close friend.

Ben had actually spoken to police months earlier in the initial days after the murder. He was among the many Idaho Falls residents police interviewed. But now, things are different. Detectives are focused on Ben.

“What exactly has Chris Tap told police or does Chris know about Angie's death?”

Two men who were once very good friends will have two very different stories. But only one of them is telling the truth. From ABC Audio in 2020, I'm Maggie Ruby. And this is the snare. Episode two, he's turning on you.

A few days before questioning Ben Hobbes in Nevada, investigators brought Chris Tap into the Idaho Falls police station. This will be the beginning of an intense month-long probe, a probe that will come under scrutiny years later. Chris doesn't know what awaits him. For now, he's going to the police station as someone who just wants to help. He's led into a small room with a table in two chairs surrounded by white beige walls,

wearing a dark plaid shirt, jeans, and a raiders cap. Chris takes a seat in the corner. The detective reassures Chris that he's not in any trouble just that he wants to pick his brain. He's not under arrest. You can get up and say, "Hey, I'm down. Take the home. I'll try to help you as best I can." When Chris and Ben met a couple years ago, Chris says the pair became fast friends.

They were part of a larger crew that he says were inseparable the summer Angie was killed. But Chris tells detectives that it's been a while since he and Ben last saw each other. Chris says he had left Idaho Falls to seek treatment for drug abuse. Chris is a high school draw-up out with some minor run-ins with the law. But now, he says he's focused on getting his life straight.

He's been living a quieter life at his mom's house. He can tell the detective that his girlfriend might be pregnant. Does the mom have no idea? Yeah. There's a familiar report between the two.

This detective was a former school drug counselor. Someone, Chris has known since he was a kid.

Damn.

“Well, we got a lot of crap going down right now.”

Okay, I'm going to share some of it with you.

I mean, I trust you and hopefully you trust me. The detective tells Chris that Ben's been arrested for sexual assault. And they think Ben might have something to do with Angie's murder. But the investigator tells Chris that they suspect he is also somehow involved that people they've talked to keep mentioning Chris's name.

Chris looks confused. He says he had nothing to do with Angie's murder and doesn't know who could have done it. I guess my name keeps coming up. Check in and stay alive. I'm going to try and clear it up. Chris tells the detective that on the night of Angie's murder,

he thinks he was at the snake river with some friends.

“He says Angie was there too, but they didn't talk.”

They weren't really friends more like acquaintances.

He says he's never been to her apartment and doesn't even know where she lives.

Eventually, Chris says he left the river and went home. He says he doesn't know where Ben was that night. And that's all he knows. The detective seems skeptical. Well, let's put it this way. Okay.

Did you kill Angie? No. No. Chris says he did not kill Angie. The detective warns him that there could be consequences for not cooperating. But then he says he wants to help Chris that he might be able to get him a deal with the county prosecutor's office, if Chris speaks up now.

“I can't make this promise to you, but I can't tell you that because of my position and everything,”

I can't pull some serious strings and let him try to keep him completely out there.

And that's a pretty great general shop. She's staring at you decide not to work with us and it comes out later that I knew something. Yeah. In other words, tell us what you know before it's too late. But for the almost 90 minutes, Chris Ben's in the interrogation room that night, he stays adamant.

He didn't kill Angie and knows nothing about her murder. I mean, I'll take a lie to take your test. I'll sign anything that would just verify what I said and you take it to court. Three days after Chris is meeting with police investigators take him up on his offer to take a polygraph test. So they help to say that I'm going to say, well, you're not going to get a support.

Now that's the case. Sitting in a big cushion chair, Chris says he's nervous. The polygraph examiner sets up his machine on the desk behind him. The examiner straps various black cuffs on Chris's right arm and fingers. Then he clips two wires tightly across his chest.

Chris takes a few deep breaths for the examiner starts. And he's going to be murdered. He won't take too much at truthly each question. Yes. And you kill Angie. Regarding Angie, Dr. Ben killed.

Did you do it? Chris also repeats what he told police since the very beginning that he knows nothing about Angie's murder. And has no idea who was involved. He looks over his shoulder at the polygraph examiner sitting right behind him. How they do?

Very strong reaction. The examiner gets up from his desk and walks over to grab a chair. He and Chris are now sitting face to face. The examiner tells him that the polygraph machine showed Chris was deceptive when he was asked about Angie. That based on his polygraph results, Chris was either directly involved or knows who did it.

In other words, Chris knows more about Angie's murder than he let on. Chris's voice turns meek. He spoke to police because he wanted to help. He offered to take a polygraph test to clear his name. And now investigators are even more suspicious of him.

He tells the examiner that he's scared. Chris repeats over and over that he doesn't know anything about Angie's murder. Polygraphs aren't admissible in court, but the examiner tells Chris that for his own sake, he needs to be honest.

He starts to explain what that charge could lead to.

“The examiner says an accessory to murder charge means the person watching the crime happen.”

Maybe just as guilty as the one who did it. And that if Chris didn't speak up, he could be looking at life in prison. He mentions the gas chamber and hanging, meaning the death penalty was a possibility. And that the stakes are high, but Chris kind of void the worst if he just starts talking. Chris tells him he has a hard time remembering things, but the examiner says that's just an excuse.

He tells Chris that subconsciously, he knows what happened, that something is stopping him from telling the truth. He says it could be fear or loyalty to his friend Ben Hobbes. At the examiner tells Chris he needs to start looking after himself. We need to take a show.

“Chris is quiet for a few moments before he starts talking about Ben.”

And he becomes something. Chris says maybe Ben did tell him something.

He says I never thought that Ben would do it, but then pauses the detective in the room encourages Chris to tell them more.

He says they'll try to protect Chris as much as they can. With that reassurance, Chris shares a new version of events. Chris tells investigators that Ben didn't like Angie, that Ben blames her for coming between him and his ex-wife. Chris alleges that every time they saw Angie at the river, Ben would tell him how much he wanted to kill her. But Chris brushed it off, he thought Ben was just joking.

I didn't think Ben was telling her. On the day Angie was killed, Chris says he and Ben were at the river. He tells investigators he saw Ben and Angie have a few words with each other before she left. Chris didn't know what it was about, but he says it didn't look good. Chris says later that night, the two men went their separate ways.

Chris tells investigators when he saw Ben the next day, Ben told him he went to Angie's apartment.

“Chris says he was confused. He thought why would Ben go see her?”

He says he asked Ben if they had sex. Ben said no. And then I said, "Oh, then what do you do, Rick?" You know, it's kind of a challenge. You dare it. Are you home? Do you want to kill him? That he killed her.

Chris tells investigators Ben admitted to murdering Angie and that Ben said he used a knife. This was a big moment for detectives.

It's the first time that anyone, including Chris Tap after hours of being interviewed by police,

has named Ben Hobbs as the alleged murderer. Chris still sitting in that plush leather chair looks exhausted and close to tears. He's been sitting at the station talking with investigators for hours. He tells detectives that he just wants to go home. You said I can kill the sitting time, Ben.

I'm sorry, but I can stop the sitting time. I can go home. Please let Chris go home that night, but the next day, they arrest him, accusing him of withholding information about the murder. So after talking to detectives, Chris is charged with being an accessory to a felony. But it won't be the last time Chris talks to investigators. He'll take more polygraph tests and spend more days being questioned by detectives.

For investigators, Chris's allegation about Ben being Angie's killer is a break in the case.

But first, they have to talk to Ben Hobbs, who at that moment was sitting in a jail cell, in Nevada.

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so as the chance of attractive price. So let's have a fan bonus in Riebe App. Only at 18, 7. A few days after Chris takes his polygraph test and implicates his friend, Ben Hobbs, to detectives go to Nevada to speak with Ben,

the visit we mentioned at the start of the episode. Ben sits at the center of the room, wearing an orange prison jumpsuit, flanked by investigators on either side. They've turned someone's personal office at this Nevada police station

into an interrogation room. It has gray, filing cabinets, and shelves stacked with black binders. There's an array of stuffed animals on top of the bookcase, right above Ben's head. His arms and legs are crossed.

He's leading back into his chair, but Ben's not relaxed.

He had his guard up the moment investigators first came into the room,

immediately telling them he's innocent. It's been a while since Ben first spoke to detectives, so his memory of their first conversation is hazy. But for the most part, Ben tells them what he told them months ago, that he and Angie were friends.

Ben tells detectives he was at the river on the night Angie was killed. Angie was there too, but he says she left soon after he arrived, so they didn't even speak.

“Ben says he doesn't remember where he went”

or what he did later that evening. He can't remember where he was. He can't remember anything that night. Was it you black out that night? Is that what you're saying?

No, there's not so much of black out. There's so much that I didn't remember what I did three weeks ago. The investigators don't buy it. They keep pressing him. It was a great way to work with him.

I just told you, I don't know. So you've been working with him. You've been working with him. You've been working with him. And you don't know.

Because he's not good at you. All right, I'm done talking. As you guys know, important, I'm sorry. He has asked him the same questions over and over.

I'm telling you the same thing over and over. It's not going to work with the circles. Ben doesn't much. He denies having anything to do with Angie's murder.

“He says, even though he doesn't remember what he did that night,”

he would never do something that awful to one of his friends.

But Chris Tap had told investigators something different. So they confront him with Chris's allegations that Ben and Angie had had a disagreement that he talked about killing her, that the tension between them eventually led to Ben murdering Angie in her apartment. This was the story Chris told detectives.

Why would Chris start chatting on you for this? I don't know that's a good question. I'm so proud of it. Ben denies Chris's accusations and stands by what he said that he and Angie didn't even talk that night.

He never talked about killing her and he did not murder her. But the detectives make clear that they think he's hiding something. Like I said, this guy is replicating you pretty heavily in this, so we want to do as you want to get it clear up by now why it was going on. You know, you may not believe us,

and there's a lot of things that are truthful that I don't believe you actually tell him. Just like they did with Chris, detectives ask Ben, what's the possibility that he could have killed Angie, but just doesn't remember.

“You could kill Angie, not remember it, because the driver's in the install.”

If I killed somebody, I would know I would kill somebody. Ben is losing his patience. He turns the tables on investigators and starts asking them questions about what happened to Angie. Well, she raped and then she's killed.

I don't know.

“That's why I'm asking you because if she was my DNA,”

we'll put my innocence right there.

Well, let me tell you this. I'm not going to tell you anything about the crime scene. Because I've found something else. I will tell you, we have got DNA that will fully convict somebody. You are well-full to eliminate somebody.

It's going to eliminate my house. Has anything to do with this? Ben had already agreed to give police a blood sample. He's banking on the DNA results to show he wasn't in Angie's apartment the night she was killed.

Ben's confident, almost arrogant, that there's no way his DNA will be a batch that despite what Chris says, this will prove what he's been saying all along

that he had nothing to do with Angie's murder. But investigators seem just as confident that the DNA will show he's their killer. What happens?

“What your DNA comes back is being announced?”

I know what happens. Well, what happens? That's what I'm asking you. I'm not guilty. That's what's written down in my book.

This is a very different interview from the one detectives had with Chris Tap. Both men initially stood firm and denied having any knowledge of or involvement in Angie's murder.

For Chris, the longer he spoke to police, the more fearful he became. He told the detectives he was scared and eventually accused Ben of being the killer. But Ben never wavers.

He becomes combative the more investigators questioned him. And he sticks with the story that he's told police from the very beginning that he didn't kill Angie.

Didn't know anything about her murder. At this point, Ben and the detectives are at a standstill.

“Police aren't going to get the confession”

and they were hoping for. Because we have some washes that we need to get it through. Okay, thanks, guys. Sorry, you think I'm fine? Continue.

Well, that's the same way. Detectives leave Nevada with nothing more than Ben's DNA. But if they couldn't get a confession, police can at least keep building their case. Starting with the friend who named Ben

as Angie's killer, Chris Tap. By now, they've arrested and charged him with accessory to a felony, accusing him of not telling police

that Ben allegedly killed Angie when they first spoke.

But the county prosecutor's office decides to strike Chris a deal. Work with authorities and they'll reduce the charge. He could get a lighter sentence. But police warn him that if they find out Chris is lying

and was more involved in the murder than he says he was, then this deal goes out the window. Chris collaborates answering whatever questions detectives ask of him. He takes a second polygraph test.

He spends hours talking to the police. We appreciate the content of this. And you suddenly agreed with me. We wanted to try to go and shoot some of the details. We need to make sure we get a big straight that he told us,

"You know, he did a skill. Make sure we get all of our ducks and our own." And each time Chris meets with them, he shares new details about what allegedly happened the night Angie was killed.

Investigators are piecing together Chris's story. Starting with the moment, he says he sees Angie at the river.

He repeats what he told officers during his first polygraph test.

When Ben showed up in his blue escort, Angie was there, Chris says Ben and Angie got into a disagreement before she left. And the two continued to hang out until the river closed out. But after a couple days of intense questioning from investigators,

this when Chris's account starts to change. Chris says he didn't go home alone, like he initially told police. Instead, Chris now claims he actually left the river with Ben. And they got in his car and spent an hour driving around town. Did you end up going over any time to come on?

Happy. The detective asked Chris if he ended up going to Angie's apartment. Chris says, "Yeah, I did." This is the moment that Chris changes the version of events again. He says that Ben didn't tell him what allegedly happened to Angie

like Chris initially said. Because now, Chris is claiming that he was there. If you sold somebody a loaded gun,

I think it is murder.

Just because you're using the internet,

doesn't mean you get away with murder.

“I'm Damon Ferris, host of hunting warhead.”

This season, I take you inside the business of suicide. And the places desperate people go when they can't find what they need in the real world. Hunting the suicide salesman, available now wherever you get your podcasts. You know when you're locked in, focus and fearless. Welcome to the WNBA.

Your vision narrows, you can't look away. Every assist, every stop, every logo, three. From beyond the logo.

Every did you see that moment.

You can! What records are going to be broken this season? All of it, right here. Lock in. It's the WNBA on ESPN.

All season long. I'm Harvey Gianne and this is Killer Stories. Every Monday, I'm cutting the lights. I'm telling you, a bedtime story. Except, these stories are all real.

We're talking brazen-highest.

Devastating cons, serial murders, and cases that defy tidy categories. So join me for new episodes of Killer Stories with Harvey Gianne, every Monday. I've heard Alice work in. I know it's there. All week, detectives have been asking Chris to have the same question over and over again.

What happened the night Angie was killed?

“Chris would struggle to answer, saying he didn't know or can't remember.”

He's with investigators for hours at a time. He was pushing him to tell them more. By day five, Chris now drops a big piece of new information. He tells them that he was actually in Angie's apartment the night she was killed. He didn't go home after the river, like he initially said.

He claims he was with Ben. This is what he tells investigators. Ben wanted to talk to Angie to work things out and ask him to come as a mediator. Chris says they parked their car just down the street from her apartment and around midnight they started walking towards her place.

Chris remembers it being cold that night. He thinks he was wearing a coat and hiking boots and he says Ben wore a Notre Dame football jacket over his sweater.

“He says they knocked on Angie's door and she answered looking confused to see the two men on her front steps.”

He says Ben told her that he just wanted to talk so she led them up the stairs to her apartment and they got settled in her living room. He remembered in the conversation they were having with a yelling at each other. I don't need to know words or anything. I don't think they'd seem like you would be in our adventure with the early calm.

Chris told police that Ben and Angie were fighting over Ben's breakup with his wife and that the argument escalated. Chris says it eventually turned into a full on fight. He claims Ben pushed Angie down and she got back up and fought right back. But Chris says Ben was ready to defend himself. So did you have the night?

Chris tells investigators Ben pulled out a knife and stabbed Angie in the chest twice. That's when Chris says he panicked and ran out of the apartment. Chris says he walked around the neighborhood for a while. Eventually he decided to go back to Angie's apartment to see if she was okay. He says Ben's car was still down the street, so he hid and waited for him to leave before going back inside.

Do you have a back to your apartment? Yeah, okay. What did you see anyway? And she found out. He says Angie was lying on the ground motionless.

He describes seeing blood everywhere. He says it looked like the life had been drained out of her. He left Angie's apartment still processing what he just saw.

But when they got together the next day, Chris says Ben wasn't shy talking about killing Angie.

“He tells investigators Ben almost sounded like he was proud of what he did.”

Chris says beyond just babbing Angie, Ben told him that he did her. He says when he asked Ben to elaborate, Ben said he had sex with Angie. Chris says he doesn't know what Ben did with the knife or his bloody clothes. But things he could have thrown it in the river. Ben, I regretted you telling me about it.

You don't feel good at the same thing. You don't even know what happened. Yeah, I mean that normally said he'd go up on me.

Chris says he didn't come forward because he was scared.

He had to keep acting like everything was normal. He says he was terrified that Ben could hurt him next. Chris taps version of what happened to Angie kept evolving. And after hours of questioning, he went from not knowing anything. To now claiming he was at the scene of the crime.

Now detectives are just waiting for his DNA results to come back. If Ben is the killer like Chris alleges, his DNA should match the samples investigators collected at the crime scene. Ben's waiting, too. He denies Chris's allegations that he killed Angie or knew anything about the crime. Like he said in his interview with police, he thinks the results will prove his innocence

and show that whatever Chris told detectives was a lie.

“And that's what investigators hit a wall.”

Turns out Ben's DNA is not a match. The DNA results show that Ben was not in her apartment the night she was killed. What Ben insisted was true. He had nothing to do with Angie's rape and murder.

This result clears Ben Hobbes of any wrongdoing and he will never face charges for what happened to Angie,

and there will never be evidence that connects him to the crime in any way. It's a blow to the case, but there was another person's DNA that was taken. Chris taps. What will those results show? It's not a big deal.

It's not a big deal.

“The snare is a production of ABC audio in 2020.”

Hosted by me, Maggie Ruelly, produced by Camille Peterson and Sabrina Fang with help from Emily Solinder and Emily Schutz. Edited by Tracy Samelson, our supervising producer, is Susie Lou, music by Evan Viola, mixing by Bob Mallory. Special thanks to Katie Dendos, Janis Johnston, Nancy Rosenbaum,

Sasha Aslinian, Suzanne DeCanto, and Michelle Margallis. Josh Cohan is our director of podcast programming. Amy McNeath is our executive producer. We've got to stop live all across the country and David Nure is right there. 250 years of America more than 24 hours on the air.

This is going to be one extraordinary event. And you can watch it live on ABC Disney Plus, Hulu, ESPN, Natio, FX, and Freeform, and Epic and Historic Celebration. Tell them Steven A. It's America's 250th birthday party.

No one throws a party like this. One online predator unleashed hell on his targets. An internet terrorist. For the young female gamers he's hunting, there's no getting away.

It was unrelenting. The cops need to figure out who he is and stop him before it's too late. How is he doing all of this? From Sony Music Entertainment and novel, this is you our next available now on the binge. Search for you our next wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today.