S2E25: What We See Before We Die | Talk Tracks

Welcome back to the TalkTracks.

I'm Kai Dickens.

“And today, we have an incredible guest that you were briefly introduced to in Season 2.”

His name is Dr. Christopher Kerr, and he's the Chief Medical Officer at the Center for Hospice and Pale of Medicine in Buffalo, New York. He's known for pioneering rigorous research and doing some landmark studies on the vivid often meaningful dreams and visions reported by patients in their final days. By conducting research through nine studies and over 1,500 patients, he found that patients

at the end of their life. Often go through the same emotional arc. And what I love about Dr. Kerr is that instead of dismissing or disregarding what the patients were experiencing, he leaned in and conducted ground-breaking research. So welcome, Dr. Kerr. We're thrilled to have you.

Hi, everyone. I'm Kai Dickens, and I'm thrilled to welcome you to the TalkTracks. In this series, we'll dive deeper into the revelations, challenges, and unexpected truths from the telepathy tapes. We'll feature conversations with ground-breaking researchers, thinkers, non-speakers,

and experiences, who illuminate extraordinary connections that may defy explanation today, but won't for long. Before we begin, I just want to quickly note that this episode is also on YouTube, where you can see visuals of the patients featured, captured by the hospice staff and researchers, and though this episode is great just as an audio version, seeing these individuals in

the midst of their experience just as another layer that's incredibly powerful, so just

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How did you start your career? What's your name? Where do you live? My name is Christopher Kerr. I have a medical degree, as well as a PhD in neurobiology.

I'm the chief executive officer, and the chief medical officer at hospice and palliative care buffalo. How many patients are there right now? We care for about 1,200 patients a day.

“And how many surveys or studies have you done and even published?”

I have numerous studies in the area of hospice and palliative medicine. Kind of everything from drug studies to program magazines. We have nine studies that look at specifically the subjective experience of such as dreams and visions at the end of life. How many patients did you collect data on eventually?

Well, why? Well, probably into hold on families and patients were near 1,500. But dying is a process so as we did it every day because it's a changing picture. And we wanted to know just like the nurses were able to predict where there are changes in these experiences as people got closer to death.

For so's people out there who maybe don't even know what hospice means? Can you explain what hospice means? Sure.

Hospice is first of philosophy, which is really a whole person centered care.

And that's how most people are coming to program.

And it's meant for those folks who have prognosis of six months or left to live. Okay. So someone goes into hospice. There's six months or less left to live. All probabilities.

Yeah. Were there people of all ages?

“I mean, hospice isn't just for older people, right?”

It's not. No. We're unique in that we have a pediatric program, but that's unusual. It's mostly older people, but it's the full gamut. Oh, gosh.

That's just so heartbreaking.

You even think of a pediatric hospice.

Yeah. And where you are now and what you've seen and experience is so, probably remarkable. I'm so different from where you started. So when you started all of this, what were your beliefs around death, around dying, around hospice?

Yeah. None good. Probably for personal reasons. My father had died when I was 12. And I think that sort of trauma, it was hard.

I had an aversion to even talking about dying. I had a very bad reaction at his death.

“And as I said, medical schools, a safe place to be if you have a death aversion, right?”

You're trying to defeat death and when you can't defeat it, you almost deny it. So yeah, I was uncomfortable with it. That's, I'm sorry, very father, by the way, that's really hard when you're young. And so, did you have any beliefs even about the afterlife or did you grow up within a faith system or not?

No, I actually, if anything, I'm from the poor. And where I'm not only discomforted by it, but I'm freaked out by it. Just to be honest with you, like if some, if I was walking down the road and they said, there was a free reading, I'd probably cross the street and walk the other way. Yeah, yeah, I just don't have a disposition.

So anything about death or the other side, yeah, freaks you out. Yeah. Or you have an aversion to court it, which yeah, yeah, I'm pretty good. Yeah. Okay, so.

That was that. That was then. So what started to change for you? No, so what happened when I got to hospice was a Saturday, and we have a 10-bed inpatient unit there, and I was completely out of my home, and I had no training on how to care

for the dying and, or how just to be present, right, that that was therapeutic. And it was immediately apparent to me that my colleagues in nursing and social work and spiritual care were much more capable. And I was, they were capable because I was used to, from my training, looking at the objective patient.

So things were measurable, observable, and they were much more tuned to what the person was actually experiencing. So my view of death was the visible suffering of it and the last thing of it physically.

“And with no sense, there was a subjective element to it, and that's what they were so”

a tuned to. So there was a subjective element. What do you mean by that? During an experience. So there was the view from my side, but there was the view from the bed.

So the dying had another dimensionality to it, that I had no recognition of. And would the support staff that was tuned more into this, would they talk about this with you? Yeah, it was a matter of fact, as part of the law. They just knew, and what actually happened was there was this pivotal moment when it was

during the AIDS epidemic, and I had a young man who was dying. And I did the doctor thing, which was thought that I could give him more time by giving him fluids and antibiotics, and one of the nurses just says, "No, he's dying." And I said, "How do you know this?" He said, "Well, he's seen his mother."

And so they were so tuned to the patient that it was just baked into their practice, clinically, that they had this awareness, they could prognosticate based on what the patient was experiencing. And of course the patient died. And what were some of the things that they were experiencing that must have sounded very woo to you?

Well, the backdrop of the story was, "I've seen my father do this when he was 12. When I was 12." Okay, so what did your father die from?

He was a surgeon, and he died of lung cancer at 42 and never smoked.

In the last time I saw him, he was playing with the buttons on my shirt, time we had to get ready to go on a plane, because we'd go fishing in northern Canada every year. So I hadn't spoken of it, you know, I knew intuitively that he, whether he was, was a good place when I was with him. But it was something that I didn't live in that thought ever, really.

And then I go to hospice, and of course all these patients are doing this, and the staff, they're just new it, and they could understand it, and they were, they knew it was soothing for the patient and their loved one, and they could prognosticate off of it. Wow. And so for listeners who maybe don't know what prognosticate means.

Project time and death. So they were so attuned to the rhythms and flows, and the increasing frequency of this

Again, it's the idea that instead of looking at organs and functions, they were looking at the totality of what the patient was experiencing and presenting us, so they were much more plugged in. And okay, so, and I've, you know, obviously I'm very familiar with your book and your work,

“but for someone who is like, wait, what were they prognosticating off of?”

What were some of the things happening for the patient that, in these rooms, that would have felt like common between many patients? So dying in and of itself is progressive sleep, and what they were noticing was that the patients were having these dreams or visions that were very, very vivid, that they kind of had this foot in two worlds, and that these kind of events were increasing as people

got closer to death, and the content would change. The closer they were going towards death, the more likely they were to see the deceased.

And these are beyond real, they're overwhelmingly comforting, and it's always been to talk

about across cultures and throughout history, so there's nothing that we've done as new. It's just shining a light on something that's been known and kind of lost in our Western world. Yeah.

What I think is so remarkable about your story and what I love about it is that you kind of took a science mind, you noticed this was happening, and tell me what happened next, because you really, like, almost codified and beg, got metadata around this type of thing. Yeah.

I think it was, again, I didn't understand it. You know, I could come up all the reasons for what it wasn't, but ultimately it was, I got to a point where just I learned to have reference for it. So where came from what it was I didn't get, but I knew that it was so comforting for the patient, and there were so much reunion and being put back together that it mattered clinically.

So, sure to have, I have, now I'm working there full time, and I have regular of students and young doctors, and I'm trying to teach them this. And we live in an evidence-based time, and the, you know, a science of medicines is outstripped at the arc, and so the young people would say, "Well, there's no evidence for it."

And I would say it's always been discussed, but it's not put in a medical frame.

So out of frustration, I started to do the research, basically if there's no evidence,

“I'll get chaplainance, so that's what we did.”

So, just to recap this story, because I think it's so remarkable, I want to make sure I have it right. So, you were working with medical students, and it's trying to teach them more about the death and dying process. You would explain that there are these interesting things that happen that can't be codified

by EEG, or, you know, brain scans, or hearts, whatever, all the things. And at that point, they were like, "There were no evidence for the fact that I've seen people." And you decided, "Okay, then I'm going to get evidence." Yeah.

Okay, so then what happened next? So what happened next? I embarked on the study. I went to the university, they declined me the first time for approval, because the idea is, we sterilize dying.

You can't bug the dying patients. Meanwhile, they're lonely and looking up at a white ceiling. But eventually, I got it through, and we designed a study, and we did a number of things. I think pretty well. One of the medical rebuttals is these are confused patients, right, in their delirious.

And we knew that wasn't true. They actually had heightened security, they were fully aware. They'd greater insight, it was quite the opposite. But what we did is we took patients who came into this unit, and we gave them the questionnaire every day, until death, and they had to be screened every day.

So you couldn't be confused. They had to be a witness, all of these sorts of things, and we had a manual list. You know, are you having these experiences?

“Are you awake, or are you sleeping? Realism, on a one-to-ten skill, how realistic is it?”

When a menu item set, what you could choose from, you've seen pets traveling, you know, friends, family, at work, whatever, and when we would follow them right to the end.

And then we started to film patients, because I always knew the rebuttal would be their

feeling-minded, deoxygenated, medicated, demented, and whatnot. And so we started to film patients. When someone watches the film, what do they see? They see a number of things. First of all, these people are cognitively intact.

Again, they're remarkably insightful and articulate. What's noticeable is the absolute absence of fear. It was really taken aback by that. And they're very disclosing, and by what they're experiencing. Unbelievable.

And so you collected data for over 1,500 patients. Yeah. So what patterns did you find? The patterns were remarkable at the end of life. Skincare is one of those things where I don't want a huge, complicated process.

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but we had to take out people once they got confused. So let's say nine out of ten people.

First of all, one of the things that's very interesting is that we don't have the right

Nau McClature. We say greens, but people are emphatic that these aren't dream experiences. These were happenings. Overwhelmingly comforting, well, to the 80% was really interesting. It's the frequency of these increased as patients were getting closer to death. And there was a content shift. The closer they got to die, the more likely they were to see people who they've known and they've lost.

And interestingly, those seen that on content was the most comforting. So you take it together. There's this built-in mechanism as you're getting closer to death. You're having increased in subjective intents and overwhelmingly comforting experiences. And you're more likely to be seen people who you've loved and lost. And you said that 80% of the experiences were comforting. I'm curious, so that's 20%.

Yeah, but the ones that weren't? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we got that completely wrong. We assumed that discomforting meant negative, the hell negative connotation. And actually those were the most profound because those were the transformational ones. You know, we've all been harmed. For having lived. There's regret. There's loss. And that often gets addressed.

How so? In really interesting ways. Whatever that illusion is, somehow you die as you live. And these experiences don't deny death, right? They almost transcend it. But they validate life. But you die as you live. You know, it's not all butterflies and rainbows. And it's honest. But you're given some form of grace. The war veteran who has survivors guilt is reunited with this comrades. And they tell them, "Where coming for you?" There's a great

example of on film of a man who is in his 40s. And he had had an accentsia in an open wound. And he breaks down in the film because he thinks he's being stopped by the people who harmed him. They were jigging a knife. You know, trying to cut, cut out, you know, my neck when my cancer was at. Stop trying to fight. You know, I'm sorry. You know, trying to fight. It's guy off. That's scary. That's scary to me. I'm not a bad individual man.

Well, I don't cross a lot of people in my life. No, and I need help. I need help. You know,

He's one of these guys who had never had a reckoning in his life. Come to terms with for

said he was sorry. And that forced him to ask for his daughter. Any apology, I was really for the first time and said how much he loved her. She ended up staying with him. He was able to sleep any past. Just again, the idea that in these moments, and in these experience, subjectively, it allows you to come to terms with sometimes difficult things, but they're transformative. And it's just fascinating. You live your whole life with some sort of lesion, or regret, or a loss,

“or a sorrow, and then it comes back to you and you're kind of made whole again. And that's how he died.”

Coming to terms with, with his honest self and with those he loved and as remarkable, because you can think of it like the one more, but you know, he had severe crippling PTSD for 60 plus years. There was no therapy that was going to help him, no medication. There was something in him that could heal, but it took reach in this point. I'm at four devins up in messages that were they were forming. There's company that we're going to go for a new company. And the guys are all

young. They're like, I remember them. And I'm old. And I'm trying to tell them, guys, I've been here. I've done this. I'm not going to do it again. And there I go. I'm packing goods. And I'm sitting in for some reason of high. He's talking about travel, which is common. If you've had a pitiful event, especially if I brought you closer mortality, you often go there, such as war. So he goes there.

But of course he goes to a deceased wife. She always wears a beautiful light. It could be a suit.

It could be a count. It could be a dress. It's always light blue. And a couple of times she's giving me the little beauty pageant wave. And it's always the case. It's vivid. There's nothing said. Everything's understood. Here we call that telepathy. And you call that telepathy? Yeah. No, it's very true.

“He just feels love. And it's tangible to him. And that's how he died, reconnected with his”

war buddies and with his wife. Okay. So you start gathering data. And then what happened next? Because I know that you ended up on the Ted stage. How did that happen? Oh, and this is really an interesting story. All of our work was meant for a medical audience. And we published. But there was crickets. So I did a TED talk and it seeks out to major media. And it goes around the world. Still going around the world today. And it's just telling because it's a disconnect on these issues

between the people who are providing care and their level of interest. And yet there's the people are receiving care or curious outside of medicine who are very much interested in these certain things. I think that is so interesting. So you had a lot of the data that you had gathered over the years of all these different studies. You had some luck getting a published internals. But it wasn't like the major media outlets. We're not necessarily picking up on it. No, no interest. No phone calls.

Yeah. Yeah. But then when it was presented on Ted, like it went viral. People were very interested

“in what you had to say. Yeah. And which shows that I think the public is so deeply interested”

and thoughtful conversations around all the stuff. You know? Well, they don't want the doctor's death. I mean by that. They don't want to medicalize death. They don't want their parents and grandparents death and hospital or nursing home. They want a death in which they would have a say. They want a more humanized experience. Yeah. So what were the major points of your TED talk that you think were resonating with people? You know, imagine you're at the end of your life. Imagine you're

greatest love. You're greatest loss. And your greatest joy. You know, a birth of a child, a loss of a parent. What if those things came back to at the end? And the other thing is so many

people have experienced these things, but it's never been validated. These are really profound

moments in people's life when they've been at the death of a parent. And they've witnessed this, but nobody's translated it or validated. So there's often an assumption that this was them confused or grugged. So it's putting that piece together, I think. This allows for context and a conversation that doesn't otherwise might not exist. If you had any of these experiences in your personal life, if you witnessed it. I was with my grandmother when she died. But no, it was just

You know, like we were all like sitting there and I was playing music and we were all around the

bed and just, you know, constant constant constant constant. And there was like, I, I didn't, when it was getting really close, I didn't want to look at my phone. And like the 10 seconds that like my brother ran to get a coat, my mom was doing something. And I was looking at my phone. And I

“think it was purposeful. I think it was she's like, I'm out now. And I was looking at me. I don't want”

all that. You know, as far as people may be at the bedside of a loved one as they're passing, do they ever experience the vision with them or see something with them? There's people who are doing this, this sort of work looking at that. I haven't experienced that. And it may be might be close-minded. But, but there certainly are people who talk about it. Now we have done dreams of bereavement, you know, people are bereaved having dreams so they're loved one. But yeah, I, I don't

personally see that. And for you personally, after seeing this and kind of studying it, do you think, what do you think explains this? I mean, do you think their hallucinations are dreams? Or do you think it's something different? Oh, they're absolutely not hallucinations. And if you see any of our videos, these people are hallucinating. I mean, they sound like you and I, right? So, and again, they're screened for that. So, before they do a questionnaire, participate in a study,

we do a thing to make sure they're not delirious. We follow their meds, we check their labs. I mean, that was part of the course. So, not no hallucinations. Dreams absolutely not. They will say, "I don't dream. I don't recall my dreams if I'm having them." But they, and content and quality, they don't, they don't resemble dreams. So, they're not metaphorical. They're not full of symbolism.

“They're not fantastical. They're none of those things. And the most important thing is they don't”

require interpretation. I've been doing this for nearly 30 years. And I've never had a patient say to

me, "Dr. What do you think this means?" And if you think about it, that's just, right? I mean, they're coming to the end of their life. They don't need to do work like that. And if you're 90 years old and you're seeing the parent you lost when you were a child and they're in front of you, you don't need an interpretation. So, and then backing up a little bit, how often are these experiences happening with the eyes open? Well, that's really interesting. We've never quite understood that

because they're, they're absolutely the patients you walk in. They're looking right through you. And they'll have a foot in two worlds. Some of them will say, "Oh, don't sit there. Someone's sitting in just sat on so-and-so." That's less common, but it happens quite a bit. The reporting of it doesn't match what we see. And we're not so sure if they're not lucid dreaming. So, in other words, so, again, dinosaur progressively, if you're in and out of sleep and the sleep architecture changes,

I imagine dream architecture changes as well. It certainly happens, though. They have their eyes open. You know, it's about 50-30 and then the rest is both. Yeah. And you said that, as people get closer to death, they start to see loved ones or people that really are meaningful to them. Earlier in the process, what does it seem that they're seeing? Well, travel's big. Travel, like they're going somewhere. Or the metaphor, too, going to travel and packing.

I've seen every motor travel, canoes, planes. What's funny is they don't get the correlation. Suggesting something. Seeing pets are very, very common. G and Michelle. There's a fascinating case. This is a young, young lady teenager who's dying. My country's got a pet story. What was the daughter's name? Most handsome, baby, that was my grandma's job. Is it she passed away?

She um, creates a world where all these deceased animals are there. And what's fascinating is she puts yourself in a castle. It's a castle. Really? Is it beautiful? Yeah. Huh. It's huge. Just scribe it for a matter of other people there? No. Okay. Is it warm? She describes the light and warmth coming through. She put a pool in there so she can play

“and all these animals are going around. That's how she left. She died days later.”

These are immersive experiences. It's not like looking at a photograph. You're in them. You're immersed in all senses with them. There's exchange. They focus more on the living upstream. And then it's a get closer. It's deceased, but not just anybody. And that's a really fascinating thing. It tends to focus on select few of people who loved and secured them. So that might be one parent but not another. We've seen people with three

husbands that really loved the second, the second one appears. But it's often one parent not the

other. Interesting. I wonder why that is. Yeah. You know, you get into this idea. There's some sort of final justice. And there's not a focus on the negative at all. I think whatever

And time and distance go away, right? This is a great failure. This is Florence five days from dying. It's very hard to pinpoint. So we're so real. And all these years where I have spent there in my daughter were like so many kids in the table. I could see their face too. I could tell it's wonderful. That's wonderful. And then Monday night the same thing happened. But the same

“idea and I thought same when I went there for five and we're here in the law. How do you make your feel? I woke up Monday morning. And I went. What's there?”

Pretty old. Have a nice day. What was you? Somewhere in all of this is our notion of time seems to go away when they're at the end. Again, they're just they just have to be in front of them. It's in the present for them. What they feel was it was that it's happening again. And she even marbles at that. That it's just like

it always was. She said they're just there. What's lovely is I asked her in the center of you.

Are you worried about dying? She says, oh no. She says, you know, if I quit swearing, I'll be okay. So that's Florence. And do you think they are originating in the brain or do you think it's responding like they're there somewhere else? Like you know what I mean? How do you explain it? I can't. And you know where I'm at is I've given up trying to understand and I'm okay not knowing. Again, it just comes back having reverence.

“And I actually the older I get I'm kind of more okay with the idea of not knowing. And I think there's something”

special in the fact that something awaits us. And that's a vantage point. Dying to the vantage point. We have no idea of and your perceptions and perspectives are going to change. And it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. What's really sad for me thinking about this is for people who die a sudden death. Probably don't have this experience. Maybe they do. I mean, I guess who knows. Well, what a George Floyd say when it's air was been squished out of the lungs.

He's going for his mom. Yeah. Express your life that lasts before my eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And his mom had passed, right? Yeah. Yeah. You're right. That is such a because that was the thing that like you know.

“And I remember I was reading an interview with a World War two nurse and she was explaining.”

She's like, you know, walking through the battlefield as people are like dying. Like she's like it's so many grown strong men. And we're reaching out for their mom. I don't want to be crying. But it's so sweet. You know,

because it's like, it's as universal experience. It's always been there. Yeah.

Well, and personally, those are the ones that move me because you're, and it, this doesn't, the telling of it doesn't get across the impact. But imagine you're standing at the bedside of a 95 year old. Yeah. And he lost his mother when he was five. And he's, he's actually one of our patients. And he can smell her perfume, hear her voice, say, I love you. And so everything evaporates in between. And it's tangible. And it gives, you're sent my sense of it is that they're never gone.

They're always there for you and approximate to you. And in this way, it's probably the biggest takeaway from these experiences is that just as we're, our earthly bodies are fading, something in our mind's whole spirit puts us back together by putting us back to those who most were instrumental in defining and shaping who we were. And so to see elders, you know, and it could be, and the detail, the remembrance of it's fascinating. They recall things that

weren't otherwise accessible to them, the name of the dog when they were a child. The detail is incredible. I love that. Yeah, because it's so often you forget memories before they just seven, you know, it's very common. Even older you forget. So you're saying that they might remember something that had been long forgotten. Yeah. Oh, it's more common than not. Wow. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I'm fully obsessed with Lolo Blankets.

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For people that might be really looking for an evidence-based moment, has ever been a situation where someone says something from talking to this other space, these other people, in this other place, or dementia, or wherever they are, that comes back, you know, when they are lucid and talking, that turns to be quite evidential and interesting, because someone in the room didn't know. For instance, maybe they saw someone who passed on,

that someone in the room didn't know. Oh, I see a revealed at some point. Yeah, reveal in some way. Yeah, I actually, I have a really interesting patient right now, her name is Shirley, and she's 83, her parents didn't want her at birth, and she was raised by her grandmother. So often families will say, I've heard more about my dying parent in this last phase, because all this stuff comes out, right? And when her eyes are closed at night,

she's singing these nursery rhymes in Lithuania. And her daughter Debbie didn't know her mother knew anything the point. She didn't know the grandmother was Lithuania, and that's where came from. So the recollections there, I mean, you can unlock memories in all sorts of ways,

“right, music does it. You're driving down the road, you hear an old song, you remember that high”

school dance or whatever. I think that this period of dying, that journey kind of spiritually rekindles recall. And it may be the basis for terminal lucidity. You've heard of that, where all the sudden things come. They're learning things that they didn't otherwise know. Basically, that person becomes recontextualized in an earlier time, right? And they're having detailed memories that weren't otherwise, no one are expressed. The filters are gone.

didn't know that your mother's mother didn't want her and had died, and that she actually knew

“Lithuanian. All of these details come out. Sometimes it's remarkable because it's one of these”

things that's odd things that can separate people at the bedside or can bring them closer. So at a patient, not long ago, who returned to their native language and they're speaking Polish. And the daughter, it's saying in the corner room, their hands are a lot completely freaked out what's happened to my mother. And you know, normalize it for, give a permission. Next day, come and she's at the bedside. She's furiously taking notes and she's learning about all of her

mother's childhood friends, the pet she had, the grandparents she didn't know. So there's lots of

revelation that way. That's pretty remarkable because so you've heard or documented the person dying, recalling memories, languages, information about their ancestors that they didn't know or that the family didn't know. And then the living daughter, some might go investigate it to find out. It's true. Is that? Yeah. Yeah. What does, yeah, it is true. Yeah. Unbelievable. Next is a video of Jennifer. So this is the one and only picture that exists of Patrick and I that was snapped by my niece

at a wedding. Jennifer's a fascinating story. She's talking about her significant other Patrick. And what's unique about this story is it really highlights a couple of features that that one, these is clearly our dreams. You don't wake up from your dreams and accurate. So he dreams that he ate spaghetti with his grandma Dolores. But it's not a recall. It was a happening in the sense that he feels fall from having eaten. So again, it goes beyond realism to actually experiential.

Patrick didn't cook with with one single exception of making his grandmother sauce, which he did. But I want to say about every four, six, eight weeks through the entire 16 years I knew him. Patrick was the only member of his family that knows how to make the sauce. And for all the years I knew him, he insisted something was missing, fast forward to this would be the Sunday before he passed. He woke up in the morning. He believed he made sauce with his grandmother the night before

said he could smell it. He could still taste it. He was full from it. And she showed him after all these years what he had done wrong, which is the very last step before you take it off the

“burner was to add a teaspoon of sugar. And that's how he left. He left full. He left”

it surrounded by the love of his grandmother who had known since birthright. He left without fear. And again, it's you know, God didn't come down from the heavens and tell him that here's the answer. It took his grandmother coming back and telling him the ingredients to a spaghetti sauce recipe. Because that's what actually that was him. When they made the spaghetti sauce in the out of the sugar, was he like, yes, this is it? Yeah. Then go. Isn't that cool? It's so cool. Again, these are

so unique in that they typically aren't great epiphanies. They're not great reveals. They're not these religious proclamations. It's about every day life. It's highly symbolic of having lived and

mattered. And it ultimately goes down to our relationships and it ultimately goes down to love.

And it doesn't matter where the person's dead or alive, this goes across in between alive. So there's this weave, you know, in that sense, there's this collective consciousness that doesn't seem to evaporate or lessen over time or in illness. It actually heightens as relieving. And he's a great example of that. Wow. In your studies, did you also do research and do these surveys for younger patients or the pediatric patients who were dying? And how is their experience different

from those of the elder people who are dying? Yeah. So we couldn't include them in our formal studies for university privileges, but we've absolutely documented we publish case series and they're in the book and we film them. And children do this differently and like some of our cognitively

“different patients, they do it in some ways better in a richer ways. There's less filter, right?”

Fascinating thing about these experiences for children is they self-inform them. So one of the concerns was a lot several of these for my patients is, you know, how do you get them to a

these, whatever again, whatever concerns you seem to be addressed. So we have one young lady who was raised by a single mom and know who is she and how is she going to be without. And then in her dream she sees her mother's friend who had passed. In her mother's room. Wow. So. Well, I want to

“make sure I get that right. So a young girl was sitting with her single mom and how old is the girl?”

13. 13 and her mom is dying. No, she's dying. Oh, the girl's dying. Young girl's dying and

first her dog shadow comes to her. And she says it means I am loved that I'm not alone and he had passed.

And then she's worried about what is life without her mother. And then she sees her mother, her mother's friend who had passed away in her mother's room playing with her curtains. Oh my god. And then fascinating thing was she kept that. Like so many of the kids, she kept that from telling her mother not wanting to upset her mother. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And then to any of them see anyone else, like either people they don't know that maybe someone else has, you know,

pull the pieces and put it together for them. People they don't know is relatively uncommon in earlier on. So we've gone upstream. Like we didn't know when did this begin. Yeah, right, right. So we started to go months and months. We spent two years going up. And it kind of makes sense.

Right. When you imagine your first diagnosed and you worry about practical issues,

bills, finances, lawyers, whenever you get to that journey of illness and acceptance and dying,

“you obviously focus on what matters most. And it's like gold, those sorts of things.”

And the people who are of less significance, they drift off and the living drift off. So we've actually tracked the content in terms of when the living are there, when they fall off. And it's kind of within that two week period before death. Wow. So the people that are alive and are on the better, whatever, kind of start to fall off in terms of this person's perception or even engagement. Yeah, oh, completely. Yeah. And people will wake up from it and their preferences to be where they were.

Right. Right. They want to go back to that experience. People say that, oh, I want to go back to be with my sister or someone who's best on that they were just with. Do they ever swim where they are? I mean, is it like a place that they knew together? Like they're childhood home? Or does it feel like they're in a different place altogether?

No. It's always seems to be able to have familiar sorts. It's not like near death and that they're

not out of their body, right? They don't have that experience. They don't see themselves dead. They're not that stuff. They're just in the presence, like a lot of them. Some of them was beautiful videos. They're just sitting around the kitchen table. It's always bothered me that they're sitting there with dead people. And that's just okay. Again, the most striking thing in all of our videos is the absence of fear. But no, they're not anywhere special. They're just in

there amongst the familiar, whatever puts them back together, best is where they go. That could be a childhood home, for example. But it's about the familiar. What do you think that means about consciousness though? Because it does, it just makes it feel like time is irrelevant. That's the thing that blows me away. That took me a long time. Because again, I didn't want to, I wasn't trying to figure that piece of it out. But it just dawns on you. You're saying there

with somebody in their nine decade and they can recall stuff. And it will freak out the family, that part, that they can remember all of us with such clarity. I had somebody who was in her 80s and she was, her father was loving and her mother wasn't and she had this life outside of her home with the father. He was a male man. He was very affectionate, expressive. And so he would meet him in the male route and they would go hand in hand together through the neighborhood.

And think of this, could send me something years earlier. And she's recounting conversations and gossip with each neighbor. She's going along. So there's something about recall, something is rekindled in memory that is in opposition to what should be a failing mind. So there's something accessible at a spiritual level that's hard to explain. Do they ever experience the vision,

“a religious figure or something like that? Like how common is that type of experience?”

Terms of religion, we struggle with this and others have found the same thing. Religions are actually far less common. I remember we first had this results I work with a woman who's super Catholic. And she said, I'm sorry, they're just, it's not a lot of symbols. And she said,

that it's consistent with the tenets of faith. There's a hospice chaplain named Kerry Egan.

“And she writes this beautiful piece that this is not incongruent to faith at all.”

She says, you know, if we believe God is love, and we think that's real,

then we first learn about God. We learn about love in our first and last classroom of love as our family.

So that's where we go. To ask, like, these experiences happen universally, right? Whether race, create a religion. There's no distinction between even us sinners or get to feel something at the end. There doesn't seem to be any predictive value to it at all. That's wonderful. I mean, it is. That's wonderful. So regardless of, like, whether you're the most faithful about, you know, Catholic or Jew or Muslim or completely atheist, these experiences happen regardless.

Yeah. We really have looked at that. Yeah. And one of the things we were wondering was whether that we're looking at whether you're spiritual beliefs, rather enhanced by this, your religious conventional is either enhanced or informed or changed. And it's still there. We're not seeing anything, though. That's so, you know, ultimately, you know, you know, when medicine fails and you're dying, nature takes over and takes it's right full

place and dying becomes what it's always been, which is a human experience that has dimensions

beyond the physical, right? There's profound spirituality and they're seen and unseen. And it's universal. Yeah. Are there any, like, particular cases that really stand out that are just like, get you in your heart or really stop you in your tracks? Yeah. I obviously, the children reaching a different way because there have a level of sophistication that you can't even imagine. What do you mean by that, though, for the children? They have a different level of sophistication.

“I think the skepticism in the scrutiny and coupled with their honesty and transparency out of”

the mouths of babes kind of thing is more of a drug window into what can be experienced. And they have such a unique vantage point. And at the same time, they're not grieving. They don't have the same anticipatory grief because they don't understand mortality. They're just living in that moment with this kind of renewed faith for that day. And there's somehow full of love still. It's just, you know, one hand, it's beyond your imagination to think of a child's death.

But it's also so restorative to think that they're still full of life and of love. I think those are probably the most meaningful for me. I know you've talked about people really engaging with seeing, talking to people who, you know, the pretty full

“room can't see. Is it always really peaceful or can it be disruptive and scary?”

The disruptive ones are tend to be their more delirium. So delirium is never a good experience.

And it's very common at the end of life. It's actually the symptom we see as much of as physical pain. So it kind of disorganized thinking. And those are horrific. And people can kind of vacilate back and forth pure distressing dreams without any inherent value or not something that we're seeing in this category. And how often, you know, I mean, my brother's actually told me about this who works in hospice care that sometimes he'll see people reaching out, reaching up.

What is that and how often is that? The precarious described it. Who did? The precarious, the father of modern medicine. Wow. Yeah, it's again, this is this thing of nothing new but lost. So describe the whole experience is basically you're dreaming virtually. And you don't dream your line on a beach and water's going by. You're, there's something in front of you. So you reaching you pick. That's very common. And do people over described what they're reaching and picking for? Yeah, that tends to be more delirium.

And basically when you normally dream, you actually have no body tone. And when that becomes uncoupled, you're delirious. So you're actually in your dream. So some people fly out of bed. They want things off. They reach and they pick. Yeah. And is there any difference in what you see occurring with people who have dementia, who might be like going out of their mind or body, possibly more, or people on the spectrum? Have you noticed any differences in how these experience? No, I think

a currency, particularly in dementia where we talk about them and number them by deficit. That's

how we communicate as doctor to doctor. What do you mean by that? We labeled them understandably so that they're quantified. They're loss of cognitive function. They're their scores of severity of loss. And what that does by focusing on who they aren't, it misses who they are. And people with dementia still have personal histories and emotional paths. And that gets blocked out if you're only talking about what they can't do. And I mean, I don't make to

“make them childlike. But there is similarities in the fact that I think they're disinhibited in a”

way to experience things very clearly. I think that they can do this in a more immersive sense. So of a great video of a woman who is dying in your expecting escalating, psychogenic distress, and more and more or daughter tells us to be beautifully. She's having this great life. Because every time she closes her eyes, she's with her deceased husband Gary. To the point, the very close to her dying day, the daughter gets a call, she's trying to get out of the nursing home,

because she's trying to get to her wedding day. So you'll often see them do it in very rich ways, the transforms, the not just, and again, these, these aren't memories, but as much they are become experiences for them. I had somebody with Down syndrome who had ovarian cancer in a big

belly from a sightsease, and she was always very maternal and carried around dolls, talked to dolls,

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Go to qu-i-n-c-e.com/tapes for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/tapes. If you were to explain now to students, having gathered all this research, you know, new people coming in to work in hospice, what would you say? What would you say that they,

someone must know about death and dying? I would just first tell you what medicine isn't

equipped to do, which is medicine, you know, the Artemisins obscure by its science, and that our organ system approached and our transactional approach to care actually is a support fit for dying, which is life closure, and that we are in that space to deal with the totality of what a dying person is going through. So unless you're willing to step out of that traditional, or contemporary, the role and first accept yourself that you're not curative, but you can be a

comforter and to be a comforter, you better be better attuned to what, not what you see, but what the patient is experiencing. And once you enter that conversation, then you can be of help.

“Yeah, absolutely. I think we've asked the superficial questions and we asked them in a way that”

was a rebel to a skeptical medical community. I think we're getting better at asking better deeper questions. So we proved it happens, we proved they're not confused, we covered the thematics of them. I think understanding the spiritual dimensions of this at a deeper level becomes very, very important. And do you think our scientific model or even like instruments

No, no, I don't. But I think we can get to a better level of understanding by gathering and puts

particularly from the psychedelic world, which basically is showing what happens organically

by using an exogenous kind of drug or plant, earlier in upstream. It's, it's the parallels

“are remarkable, right? I think they see themselves again as outside of themselves as something larger,”

they experience something a sensory level that's beautiful and wondrous. But I think what's wonderful is the fear dissipates. And that happens naturally and I love the idea of taking an upstream in illness where you can change the experience of dying earlier. So that all that kind of psychogenic existential pain could be addressed is just magnificent. There's a whole world and I think again, it's similar to the end of life experiences that it's in us. It's just tinkering in a way that

brings it to surface. It's wonderful. Has there been any research on psychedelics given to people

dying maybe that year out? And what's that experience like for those people? Oh, it's unbelievable. There's a part of a film, a documentary with Lynette Walworth, whose work talking to what she did was she worked with indigenous in Australia and the Amazon and she came across my work and she told me she said, you know, you discovered nothing new. I go, yeah. And she was these people of language for it. And then what she did was she brought Shaman's into the care model in a pallet

of care patients and had them give the psychedelics in hand and hand with the psychiatrist who starts out skeptical and ends up having his eyes opened. What were the people saying on psychedelics that were in pallet of care? Oh, it's just that they recognize that they're not really gone, but they're part of something larger, that it's peaceful and they almost become structurally changed. The fear goes, the sorrow goes, the sense of lost goes. They just come out, there's something

transcendent about it and they're lightened while dying. It's so frustrating that this happens to people so often, like right at the end of death, and we don't realize that when we need it, sometimes we're living, right? Well, and that's what I would like to see because we're catching people just towards the end and it would be nice to see them upstream. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is. It's such a comforting thought, I think, for a lot of people, and I think there's an

epidemic of loneliness. It's plaguing this country, especially men, and you think of that feeling that people have if I'm alone. I'm alone. No one loves me. I'm unlovable. And then you get this moment weeks or days or months before you die, where you're like, "Wait, I'm not alone." Yeah. And I just wish that could happen for people earlier. Well, and you look at the futility of so much of the drug therapy, and the fact that you can establish some certain neuroplasticity

“with the use of these medicines. And I think it's fascinating. There's nothing new here, right?”

It's always been. Yeah, we're missing a therapeutic opportunity. There's a rapid

proliferation of work. We'll be starting work on ketamine. We've seen it with ketamine. We've used ketamine for years for pain, and those people come out completely different. So yeah, it's a great opportunity. But I just think it's fascinating that it aligns with our work, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So with all that in mind, I guess like a few more questions. First being with the work on happening around psychedelics. And just I feel like the whole world

seeming a little bit more open to topics like this in conversations around this. I was stuff and they were even five ten years ago. Do you find like families walking in more open to this and more willing to talk about it or even patients or the scientific community? Like where do you see shifts and where don't you see shifts? I don't see shifts in the medical community, right? Which is, um, and these aren't bad people. But the interaction with the patient is

“in a value-based system is reduced to its most efficient moment, 15-minute pauses, right?”

Spot welding and flyby's. Yeah. So they've extinguished any hope for a broader kind of interface. So I don't see it happening in medicine. There's no billable codes for talking about people like this, right? It only grew out of a hospice because they create the expectation is you take the time, the time taken as a time needed. Right. So it's a completely different model.

we are so self enamored with technology and science that we've lost the other side of the medicine. So I don't see it happening. And I've got data on this with our young doctors, our medical students, you ask them what's important, you ask an old person, what's important, and they're

“oppositional. So I just think, I don't see it coming there, unfortunately. I think it comes”

from larger public who, again, want a different, they want to have a say and they're looking for something, and they're demanding now. I mean, it's not a long-arrow picture or a doctor who they're going to listen to. They're going to claim that they're going to put a stake in the ground, and this is what I want. Whether it's death cafes, whether it's made, whether it's hospice care,

it's basically a pullaway from a traditional medical based model. And they're going to

they're going to do the right thing. They're going to invent different things like psychedelics and experiment. They're taking control of the conversation around dying. Our problem is we get so much NDE stuff, and it's just so different. And it should be different,

“right? This isn't a trial run. They're not going back. Right. And so there isn't, they're not”

given work. Right. They don't have questions that need answer. Right. So it's just really it cool. And that makes sense, given where they are. Yes. And now for you, after being opposed to death, terrified of it, then we're going to talk about it, versus anything to do with it, what's your, how do you feel about death now? I'm also a cancer patient. So I've had to wrestle with this a lot. So I had to switch in a day from doctor looking at this to

a very vulnerable ill person having to think about this. And it's a really weird experience. I was fearful of the process of dying, having witnessed so much death. What I see of the dying and my colleagues who work in this space will tell you, we see more affirmation of life than denial of life. Right. So we see the best of humanity carrying seeing other people care for their loved ones. So that part of it doesn't frighten me. I'm just as scared as the next guy,

but not for self. I'm scared because I have a non-finished life in the sense people are dependent on me to carry one child. So it's that pain I feel is not being able to be who I need to be leaving somebody. It's not the actual process. And having gone through illness, you come out the

“other side. It's so hard to describe, but you come out. I think a better version of who you were”

than when you went in and we're in wonderful ways. So I don't like we regret it, but so the actual dying process is not fearful. It's just, and it's not about me. And we see that we're actually doing a very interesting study. The thing people get wrong about dying is the misunderstand hope and the misunderstand fear. Hope transitions kind of for cure to hope to others. So in our study, and in all of our filming, what's fascinating is everyone wanting to contribute. They look like

shit. They keep you drooling, have dressed, tearing it all, missing, whatever, and they just want to contribute. So it's this idea of giving for something without secondary gain that is just so magnificent.

They just want to, they want the words to matter, right? And that never leaves right into the

very end of their life. And then fear also seems to dissipate. Yeah. And you watch the videos. I don't have, we don't have anywhere you see fear. That's so great. Yeah. So it's a better story. Yeah, and have you looked at how other cultures look at this. Or when you presented this research to other cultures, do they say, duh. I mean, or is it like, you know, is this universal thing? Oh, yeah. I mean, a lot of the best work has been done in other cultures. There's many cultures where this is the

way that they maintain their connectivity to their ancestors, right? The idea that this continuity, weird that once or do you market death as a finality, whereas other cultures view it as a way to maintain their ancestral connection so that they don't feel gone from, there isn't that end point

in the same way we view it. So yeah, the cultural piece is always there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you.

It's one of the things people get wrong. They assume that we must be depressed or depressing.

If you came into our work environment, you'd be surprised. That's it for this episode of the

talk tracks. But new episodes will be released every Wednesday. So stay tuned. As we work to unravel

“all the threads, even the veiled ones that knit together are reality. And please remember to stay”

kind, stay curious, and that being a true skeptic requires an open mind. And if any you want to explore this further, we've uploaded more videos to the Slap of the Dave's Backstage

“Pass, featuring additional patients describing their end-of-life visions and experiences in their”

own words. Thank you to my amazing collaborators, producers, Katherine Ellis and Selena Kennedy,

technical directing audio mix and finishing by Jeremy Cole, opening and closing music

“by Elizabeth P.W. and original logo and cover art by Ben Condor Design. I'm Kai Dickens,”

your executive producer, writer, and host. [BLANK_AUDIO]