Origins of Christian Zionism, How It Corrupted American Christianity and Why It’s Finally Collapsing

>> Judy Hall, thank you for joining us.

“I think you're one of the clearest writers on the internet.”

So it's an honor to have you here. I've been trying to figure out for several, you write on theology on Substack and other places. And we're very clearly, I just want to say, clarity being the goal of expository writing.

You achieve that. >> Right. >> Few do. I've been trying for the last several years to figure out that Christian Zionism is not because I haven't had an interest,

but because it's affected the shape of the world. And a lot of people have died because of it. And it has real world consequences that we can, we're living through right now. What is Christian Zionism?

Where does it come from? Is it Christian? What's your assessment? >> Well, if you listen to people online, every Christian is a Zionist. Just naturally, right?

>> Yes. >> So the proponents of it will tell you that it is the de facto position on Israel,

and it always has been for Christians to believe

in the establishment and support and protection of a Jewish ethos state in Palestine. Christian Zionism-- >> What's it? >> It doesn't say in the Bible that those who bless Israel

will be blessed and those who don't will be cursed. >> Yeah, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you've had probably about a thousand different people. Tell you that. That's something that we hear every single day as Christians.

>> I couldn't find it. I got my concordance out. I couldn't find it.

“>> Well, I remember the interview with Huckabee”

and he couldn't find it either, which is weird when you cite it. All the time-- or actually that was Ted Cruz that couldn't remember where it was. I'm not sure that Ted even knew

like if it was in the front of the Bible or in the back of-- >> No, I don't know idea. >> But yeah, so Genesis chapter 12 verse three says, "I will bless those that bless thee and curse those that curse thee." And from that, I'm simplifying it,

but from that comes this more philosophical notion than theological, that we as Christians have a duty-bound obligation to protect and to defend and also to help establish a nation for the Jewish people in Palestine.

And it hasn't always been Palestine.

So when political Zionism first developed, they had posited Morocco and Galveston, Texas, Ohio, Siberia, different place. >> Elvison, Texas?

“>> Yeah, there was a substantial number of Jews there”

and they thought this could be sort of the safe space for Judaism worldwide, which made sense because the United States has always been a pretty hospitable place for Jews. But anyways, so far as it concerns Christian Zionism,

that is tied to a theology called dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is a theology invented by John Nelson Derby. >> What does the word mean dispensationalism? >> Well, the term refers to different dispensations of time by which God operates differently

and deals or interacts with man differently depending upon what dispensation of time it's in. So dispensationalism is juxtaposed against covenant theology. And those are your two basic viewpoints of Christians throughout the history of Christianity.

And for the most part, there is only those two perspectives. And you can get lost into the weeds really easily. >> Yes. >> John Nelson Derby, he belonged to a bizarre Irish sect. It was sectarian.

They had basically skismed their way outside of the established church.

They had several different theological hangups. One is that they rejected all forms of church authority. They were what I would call sectarian minimalist. So they reject the organized church. They rejected the established church.

And part of the reason is because their beliefs were so eccentric and weird, they would have been excommunicated. Had they remained in the established church. So after moving from Ireland to Plymouth, England, the notion of dispensationalism grew.

And essentially the difference between dispensationalism and covenant theology is that God in covenant theology is interacting with man in accordance to the old or the new covenant. And so the bulk of the church from the first days of the apostles through the church fathers, through the Protestant reformation,

or Protestant reformers, all of them are what you'd call covenantal

in their theology. So you said, and I'm sorry to be pedantic. I was trying to understand this because I certainly think it matters and you understand it better than anyone I've ever talked to. The premises that God's promises change according to the time,

according to the dispensation, the era, the epoch. So dispensationalism can be complicated. Classical dispensationalism separates the epochs of time into seven different eras. It can definitely be complicated. There's something that's called leaky dispensationalism,

which is a little bit less structured. But essentially the big difference is this.

Covenant theologians have always believed that God saves people via covenant.

And there was an old covenant.

“That's what testament means, by the way, not testimony.”

It's the old covenant. And then there is the new covenant that has been established. And that Jesus came and inaugurated a new covenant. And he did that at Passover right before he was crucified. The last supper, which was the last Passover, supper.

The last authentic Passover supper was also the first Lord supper. It's the first communion or Eucharist. Yes. And Jesus says, this is my new covenant. Or this is the new covenant in my blood. That's poured out for many.

And so in the new covenant, Jesus Christ is the means by which God's people are saved. Yes, okay. In the old covenant, the covenant people of God were Israel. Yes. God being very gracious, gave Israel rights and rituals for them to see as an explanation,

a word picture of who their Messiah would be.

“So that when their Messiah came, they would say, obviously, that's what this is about.”

Yes. Passover is a good example. They would recognize the Messiah. Yes. In fact, it would be hard for them not to recognize that Jesus was the Messiah.

He's crucified at Passover. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. I mean, all the imagery is right there for the Jewish people to see that this is the moment that we've been waiting for. Jesus installs the new covenant in His blood.

And by that, by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, we are redeemed by faith in that. And then we become God's chosen people.

“And so a covenant theologian is going to tell someone that quotes just as chapter 12, verse”

three, I will bless those that bless the and curse those that curse the. A Christian covenant theologian is going to quote to you, Galatians chapter three, which is a book of the New Testament in which the apostle Paul is writing to the church in Galatia. And he tells them that if you have faith in Jesus, you are God's children, you're actually he says, you are the children of Abraham, it says it twice.

So by faith were adopted into God's covenant people. And then at the very end of Galatians chapter three, not only does it tell us that we are the children of Abraham, those who believe, but also we are the airs of the promises. And so in fact, in Galatians chapter three, verse seven, the apostle Paul very clearly explains that that promises not for the Jews.

It never was for the Jews.

The picture was rather the mission of God was much bigger than that. That's clearly Old Testament, isn't it? Right. It's Old Testament and God is preaching through the rights and rituals of the Old Testament, the gospel before Jesus came.

Yes. All right. So that they could understand concepts like grace and judgment and forgiveness and repentance. Because it was never about the sacrifice of bulls and goats. It's not as though that blood shed ever took away sin.

It gave them a picture of the blood shed that Jesus Christ would one day give for us so that they could believe in what we call types and shadows, putting their faith in the rituals

And the greatest, the great mystery of the gospel, Paul calls it, is that Jesus was not just a Jewish Messiah. He was a global Messiah. He was everyone's Messiah.

“And that by faith, we become the children of Abraham.”

And by faith, we receive Abraham's promises.

I was going to say a second ago, the very first part of Galatians chapter three.

He says, you know, when the promises given to Abraham and to Abraham's seed, Paul says, it doesn't say seeds, plural. It says seed singular. The promise is not given to the Jews. The promise is a reference to Abraham's seed.

That's Jesus Christ because Jesus was of the lineage of Abraham. So the promise is not the Jews and God will bless you, the promise is bless Christ and God will bless you. Furthermore, not only is that promise just for Christ, but by the end of the chapter and Galatians three, the apostle Paul says, you are the heirs of the promise, meaning that

promise is extended to us. And so the irony is you have these so-called Christian Zionists who believe that we have to bless Jews in order for God to bless us and they're actually giving away their own inheritance. That's our promise. I'm a child of Abraham.

If you're a Christian, you're a child of Abraham. We receive the heir rather, we receive the promises of Abraham because we inherit them by the virtue of adoption in Jesus Christ.

“That's what Christians have historically believed.”

And there are other supporting texts, you know, you got Romans chapter nine where the apostle Paul says that Jews who do not believe in Jesus are not children of Abraham. You've got Romans chapter 11 that paints the picture of the tree of faith in which unbelieving Jews are branches on this tree that have been cut off and severed from both Abraham and God and in their place are grafted in believing Gentiles.

And so we are brought into the family of Abraham and in covenant with God by virtue of faith. So when someone like Mike Huckabee or Ted Cruz or any other politician or preacher, preach as a message that, you know, if you went God to bless you, you need to do X, Y or Z for the Jews. They're handing away or handing out Christian promises.

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“It doesn't make inherent sense the theology that you're describing, dispensationalism”

and also before I ask you about how it's spread and why. Is it true or product of my bad memory that there are glimpses in the Old Testament that God plans to redeem the entire world that is not that God's mission on Earth is not just to protect this one group of people but everybody. So what dispensationalists will do is they will look at verses in the Bible about the

end times we call that eschatology, the look at these eschatological texts about what God will do with ethnic Jews, the children of Abraham physically and they'll say, see, you know,

the Jews are special to God in a way that other ethnicities are not.

And it's unfortunate because three different times in the New Testament, the Scripture says God is not a respecter of persons and each and every time it's a reference to the

“Jewish people but they have in their head Jews are special, they look at a verse about what”

God is going to do one day in the eschaton or in the end days for Jews and walk away from that saying therefore we need to support the nation state of Israel. This must be a part of that grand plan that God has designed for the Jewish people. But Isaiah chapter 19 just to give you an example tells us that the Egyptians and the Assyrians will be redeemed by God in the end days and be brought to Zion to Jerusalem

or to the Promised Land. It calls Egypt, God's special people and says of a Syria that they are the work of his hands. These are two nations that are adversarial to the ancient Israelites. Well, enslaved them in one case. Right.

“The Assyrians are constantly warfareing with them. These are bitter enemies and yet the prophet”

Isaiah says that they will become special to God, he will call them his own and draw them to Zion. That's in the Torah? Yeah, that's in the Torah. It's in Isaiah chapter 19, but that's not the only place.

There are literally dozens of different scriptures throughout the text that tells us that every nation group in the end is going to be drawn to God through Jesus Christ. As a matter of fact, it's in the Abrahamic promise in Genesis chapter 12 verse 4 of that promise. Right after it says, I'll bless those that bless the encursed those that curse the. It says every family of the earth will be blessed through Abraham.

And so that Jews will tell you that it's because Israel is such a grand, wonderful place that all of the different nations of the world are being blessed by Israel. Unfortunately, the dispensationist will tell you that too. I say unfortunately because that's clearly a reference of Christ. Through Jesus Christ, God's saving love to sinners all around the world, every people

group, every nation, every ethnos is going to be drawn to God in the end.

That's our hope as Christians that God wins, that salvation is secure ultimately for every

nation under the sun that God will bring unto himself one shows in nation, one holy people for God's possession. And so yes, we can see places in the Bible where God has future plans for Israel, but we can also look to those very same prophets in those very same books and see that God has great things in store for Persia, for Iran.

God has great things in store for Greece and for every nation, including, by the way, the ancient Philistines who are modern day Palestinians, God has plans in store for everyone. That is the good news of the gospel that Jesus shed His blood for sinners and that by faith we can all become the children of God. And by virtue of that children of Abraham, when I was a kid in church, there was a song

that we sang, Father Abraham, and it says Father Abraham, had many sons, many sons, had Father Abraham. I am one of them and so are you. So let's just praise the Lord, probably raise to piscopalian that one skipped church, not not in our, in low church, even jalkalism, that song is probably sung in every, you

know, Baptist and even jalkal church, it's a song of covenant theology, by faith, Christians

not the children of Abraham, that's what Roman chapter nine teaches, that not all who are

of Abraham are really of Abraham.

“I mean, bigger picture, it feels like the story Christianity is a universal promise to all”

people, sure. And it's dispensationalism seems like it reduces Christianity back to its pre-Jesus state, where no, this is a promise just to one-group, one genetic line. Yeah, I would say, at its heart, dispensationalism is a Jewish interpretive model. As a matter of fact, they will actually take that as a point of bragging that we interpret

the scripture, the way the Jews interpret the scripture.

Well, the Jews misges us, he came in the flesh, he was there, they saw him, as a matter of fact, they saw him dead buried and resurrected and still didn't believe.

“So maybe that's not who we should be taking pointers from in terms of understanding biblical”

prophecy. What's Jesus' role in dispensationalist theology? Well, Jesus' role in dispensational theology is, so it depends to whom. So John Nelson Darby, the inventor of dispensationalism, referred to the Church, the Christian Church as a parentheses that God's main plan is Israel, but because they've been naughty

and disobedient, the Church comes in and we're a parentheses. So instead of being like the bride of Christ, the Church is more like a summer fling that this is where the rapture comes in, that eventually God will rapture us, take us out.

“We're gone completely and then Israel can resume its role as the big picture.”

It's a very Jewish way of looking at the scripture where Jews and Judaism and Jewish people

is always at the center of the scripture as opposed to Jesus being at the center of the

scripture. So eschatologically, in terms of the end times, there are different ways that Christians have looked at it throughout history. There's Ommonialism, and I'm not going to bother explaining these, but postmonialism, premonialism, historic premonialism that is, they all agree though that God only has one

shows and people, and that's those who believe in Jesus, whether they're Jewish, whether they're Gentile, it doesn't matter where all the children of God, if we believe. Dispensationalism is different from all of those different ways that Christians can view the end times, because dispensationalism is saying, well, really, God's main love is the Jewish people, and for a time, and a so-called church age, in this dispensation of time,

yeah, the church is here, but one day we're going to be sucked out of here, we're going to beam up to heaven, and then Israel will come back and form the center of the show. And so, from my perspective and the perspective of historic Christianity, it's not only an insult to the church, to act like where some kind of summer fling for Jesus, and that, well, it's really about Israel. It's also disrespectful to Christ, because He didn't

come to be like a tribal deity of some desert war cult in the Middle East. He came to be the Messiah and the Savior of the world. They emphasized Jesus' Jewish Messiahship all the time. Matter of fact, you'll hear Jews who deny that Jesus is the Son of God. I don't even mean messianic Jews, just Jews that believe the typical teaching in the Talmud about Jesus being punished and hell, all of that stuff, but they will, and speaking to Christians,

point out, well, you know that your Messiah is Jewish. Jesus obviously was a physical descendant of Abraham. There's no argument there, but the term that Jesus used for himself more than 70 times was Son of Man. Jesus did not emphasize his own Jewishness. Jesus came as a Savior of mankind. And so, he called himself Son of Man, which was a term from the prophet Isaiah. And so, it not only reduces the big picture of Christianity to something that is much

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officer was the first person to recognize that Jesus was the son of God at the end of the earth. The Roman officer who's slave, he heals. He said, "Not see any faith like this in all of Israel." But he was out of his way to, well, to minister this Samaritan woman,

et cetera, et cetera. He's always picking non people from outside the tribe.

“Right. You know, it's interesting that people ask the question sometimes, like, who killed Jesus?”

And it's a big debate online every couple of weeks, a new fight breaks out on X, where dispensationalists and covenant theologians are fighting about who killed Jesus. And, of course, it's, there's an obvious answer, right? Like the Jews killed Jesus. We know that because at least eight times in scripture, I mean, that the scripture explicitly says that the first sermon ever preached was the apostle Peter that started by saying, "Men of Israel." And a few lines

later he says, "This Jesus Christ, whom ye crucified." So the Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus, if you remember, in John chapter 4, Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, they see it. They recognize that he's the Messiah, the Sanhedrin, which is the ruling council, comes together and they immediately plot to kill Jesus. Like they knew, they had Lazarus later. Well, it was, yeah, it was an ancient cover-up operation, basically. They're going to kill the guy again. So in Jesus looks to the Pharisees

and he says, "You're plotting to kill me. This is what you're trying to do." So the question would be, "Why does the Bible seem to blame Jews for the death of Jesus?" Obviously they're involved. But it was technically the Romans that, you know, nailed them to the cross. It was the Romans who

who killed him. And the answer is, and it will Jesus himself, by the way, I should say,

while he's on the cross as forgive them for they know not what they do and he's speaking of the Romans, not the Jews. He's talking about those who were actually doing that decrease of fiction. If you think about what transpired after before the, the decrease of fiction was done, the centurion recognizes that Jesus is the Son of God. Pilot very clearly was remorseful by the time he was done handing Jesus over to be crucified. But within a few decades,

you had mass conversions of the Roman people and all throughout the Roman Empire to Christianity.

And by the third century, you had the full Christianization of Rome. That doesn't mean that every

Roman on earth was therefore a Christian by the virtue of being born in a Christian empire. We all

we're justified before God. But you have the Roman people recognizing who Jesus is very quickly. The Jews who saw Jesus dead buried and resurrected many of them followed after him, but many of them persisted to persecute him. And then within a very short time, they're stoning Steven to death.

Steven, as he's being crucified, points out to the Jews, you've always killed God's prophets,

“and you've killed Christ. And so the reason why I think the scripture isn't throwing the Romans”

under the bus, so to speak, even though they obviously had a hand in Jesus' crucifixion, is because they saw ultimately who it was they crucified and then they repented and they believed. And the Jewish people, those who did not convert and follow Christ, ended up having to make a new religion. And 70 AD, when the Romans destroyed the temple, because all of those rights and rituals that we discussed that God had given the Jewish people

for them to see and understand who Jesus was, the festival of Booth's Passover, all of those various rituals and the different kinds of sacrifices all required a temple, and it required an altar, it required blood, it required a priesthood to make that sacrifice. Those no longer existed after 70 AD. And so over the course of hundreds of years, the sect of the Pharisees that grew into modern Judaism had to essentially invent a Judaism

that is not what you see in the pages of the Old Testament. They renamed some feasts, right? Like, they still call it Passover, but it's not. It doesn't resemble the Passover

“of the Old Testament. It's completely new disparate religion. And that's why you have a desire”

among Christians throughout the last 2000 years praying for the salvation of the Jewish people. To be very clear, the Christian or covenantal theologian message is not that Jews are totally cut off from God and that they cannot be saved and that God hates them or anything like that, but that congratulations, your ethnically Jewish, that's great. God doesn't care. Like every other group of people on the face of the planet, you need to repent of your sins

and believe the gospel. That's the Christian message. John Nelson Darby comes along and the message towards the Jewish people begins to change and begins to evolve and suddenly it's instead of you need to repent of your sins and believe the gospel, it's your special, your special

“to God. God's going to bless you, regardless of whether or not you have faith in Jesus,”

just because you're Jewish and that's partiality. The scripture actually forbids that type of partiality. It's unfortunate that Christians believe that's historic Christianity because it is a Christians ought to be safe in the Holy Land of all places, but they are not.

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“I do think Darby was sincere. I've studied Darby a lot. I think he was sincerely wrong. Yes,”

but I believe that he was sincere. Who wasn't sincere were the advocates of dispensationalism that saw its political value in the century that followed because Darby remained ostracized for a hundred years or about 90 or so. So you've got Charles Spurgeon, for example,

at the London Metropolitan Tabernacle in London couldn't stand Darby. He called the theology new

called the novel and the typical theological belief and it's a good one. Is that that which is new is not true that which is true is not new. So if it's new and novel, like God isn't coming

“up with new theology, right? If someone invents a new doctrine, it's automatically wrong. Yes,”

because God's already established his church. It's like Jesus and the disciples would have told us about this. So it was rejected by almost everyone because it was so novel and so new. Then we have Scofield that hits the scene in 1907 and he's a bit of a scoundrel. Like I don't want to bash a dead person, but he was not what you would call a shining example of what a Christian should be. You know, he abandoned his family. For example, he's basically we know that

he abandoned his family. Yeah, his wife and kids. She yeah. So he shows up in New York from New York.

“He goes to the UK. He winds up at Oxford, which is the hotbed of political Zionism.”

They print and publish a Bible. We call it Scofield's Bible. It's not Scofield's Bible. It never was.

Scofield's Bible. He never owned the Bible. It's Oxford's Bible. He was the theologian allegedly whose notes in the margins of the Bible propagated the theology of John Nelson Darvey. And that took off like, you know, wildfire in the United States. It's because in low church, evangelicalism, most clergy at the time and even to this day are not classically trained in seminary. Back then, you know, especially before the age of the internet and with the cost of publishing,

the typical pastor in a Baptist or a congregationalist congregation would own a Bible. And that would be about it. They didn't go home to prepare their sermon with the collection of commentaries or a Bible concordants or a lexicon. All they had was a Bible. But if they could get their hands on the Scofield's edition, they would have all of the study notes that they could read and learn and educate themselves. And, you know, they were smart enough to know that the margins

is not the same as inspired writ. But that became the de facto home education for a lot of clergy. Within a single generation, among low church evangelical Protestantism, dispensatialism became the majority view because it's a nice handy resource that you read right there in the pages of the Bible. And a lot of uneducated Christians during the era were actually not smart enough or educated enough, I should say, to discern the difference between the inspired writ that was given by God,

the Holy Spirit, written through the hands of men inspired by God, the Holy Ghost and the marginal notes in which this effectively schismatic cult in Ireland and then England has their theology

well, if you fast forward to today, people believe that that's the view that the church is always

held. So Darby comes up with this, as you said, novel theology, cultish theology, non-traditional Christian theology. But it's disseminated effectively by this guy, Scofield, the family of

“band owner, Scofield's names on it, names on it. Yeah, what was his motive? Do we know?”

I don't think that Scofield's motive is sinister either. I don't mean to throw him under the bus, like he's a bad guy or a villain. I do think it was weird that he didn't think to himself, okay, so I'm a relative, nobody. Why am I, why are strangers paying to sell me across the ocean? To meet with people I don't know at Oxford. Oh, strangers did pay his way across to do. There's nothing in Scofield's life that would suggest that he would have had the funds to pay for that himself.

There's a couple things there that don't make a lot of sense, including the club that he was a part of in New York with a, you know, dues that it would not be reasonable to presume someone of Scofield's lack of employment would be able to afford. So yeah, he goes across the ocean and he meets with high society. It's Oxford, right? And they discussed putting this Bible into print.

And it was the first Bible of its kind in which in which the marginal notes are going to have

you know, theological content. So a built-ins of that kind. Yeah, it's a built-ins study Bible, which was totally new. So if you couldn't go to seminary, it's okay, just by Scofield's Bible, and believe what's within his pages. So it sounds like you're suggesting that he was himself

“knowingly or not kind of an op. I think he was a patty. Yeah, I think that the Zionists”

in the UK, the political Zionists Zionists got wind of what the Plymouth brethren were teaching. That's Darby's bunch. And they thought, well, at the same time, you've got theodore Herzl, who is trying to get Europe to buy into the Zionists project. And this eschatology is growing over here, which could be helpful to their cause. And yeah, they disseminated the Bible that Scofield's Bible, I think, for clearly political reasons. So this came from the UK. Zionism as an idea

really kind of gathered steam first in the UK, right, England. Why? Any idea? I don't know why specifically Zionism, religious Zionism took off in England. Organically, I mean, that's where the Plymouth brethren moved to, so that would make sense. But I would point out that the same institution that printed the Scofield Bible is the same institution that published the Balfour Declaration within a year. Yeah. So it's practically the same

people. So within a year of the Balfour Declaration, you have this, hey, coincidentally, really great new theology that helps to support back up the political ambition of Zionists.

I had no idea. That's amazing. So then it comes to the United States where it really takes

root. And that's about when this is pre-first row war that this hits the US. Yeah, so it would have

“been, what was it, 1907, I think, so the field was published. And so yeah, it came to the United”

States very quickly. And it just grew like wildfire because you've got Baptist Methodist, Congregationalists. You have the Azusa Street Revival, which is just starting to kick off charismaticism. So anybody in that, in those circles, they're probably not going to a seminary. They're not mainstream Protestant that would have had the brick and mortar seminaries. You know, your Presbyterians, your Episcopalians, and so forth. And so, you know, good for them,

they got to avoid most of the dispensationalism problem for quite a long time. But now, today, they're they're eight up with dispensationalism. But it's, it's really not theological for the mainstream Protestants. It's just, it's soaked in through culture through various channels.

Presbyterians, for example, they are the arch covenant theologians. Their doctrine should be

hostile to dispensationalism. But you'll still find a lot of Protestant, excuse me, Presbyterians, who will tell you that Jews or gods chose in people, just because they, at this point, were receiving this through osmosis Christians. It's just, it's everywhere. As Christians, you're supposed to support Israel with a carry, prison, boulder if I'm pronouncing her new right. I think that she shocked a lot of people when at the religious liberty council meeting,

she had said, as a Catholic, we don't support Israel or we're not Zionists. And that shocked a lot of

people as though she's making that up. And they don't realize that the vast majority of

prisondom has a confession of faith for their specific church that does not allow for the belief that the Jews are the chosen people of God. And so most people these days aren't that aware of what their own doctrine is. That's right. You know? So there's a sort of a doctrinal downgrade so to speak.

“That's what Spurgeon would have called it. A theological dummy down where Christians don't know what”

their own beliefs are supposed to be. Interesting. So there does even if you accept the precepts of dispensationism as, as just described by you, it's still a jump to go from that to unlimited

military aid to the modern secular state of Israel. Right? No? No. It's a huge jump. So it's on one hand,

we can acknowledge, let's say I am a pre-malinealist and I believe that Jesus is going to literally come rain from Jerusalem one day. It's it's one thing to believe that that one day a bunch of Jews are going to get saved and become Christians. That would be wonderful. If that happens, that's great. What does that have to do with me supporting the state of Israel today? God may one day save the Jews. Great. Hope he does. The promises are in the Bible that he will.

“So I believe that that will happen one day. But that does not imply that either for have to”

become part of a protectorate to protect a kingdom of Jews whose king is not welcome. And for me, that's the offensive part as a Christian being told that I have to support the Israeli state. Like I support Jesus. Jesus is not welcome in the Israeli state. Like the the right of return for example gives Jews the permission to come back no matter like their blood quantum. They don't have to be a certain portion Jewish, right? They have to be if you have one grandparent out of four

Jewish, you can come from anywhere in the world. Two is real. They'll let you immigrate and become a citizen because the thought processes Jews need a safe place in the world. Right? That's the philosophy. Unless you're a Christian. If you are a Jew who believes in Jesus, you're not welcome back. Is that true? Oh, that's absolutely true. Yeah. So the way that you can be a hundred percent Jewish by blood. Yes. But if you profess Jesus, you do not have the right to return. You can be one

hundred percent Jewish by blood, you know, in terms of your ethnicity. But if you believe in Jesus, you cannot return even if you're under persecution in your home country, hypothetically, if that were to happen. So let's say they're persecuting Jews based on their ethnicity in some country somewhere. They don't care if they're a Christian. They're ethnically Jewish. They're going to put them to death. Yeah. The right of return would not allow them to return. The right of return

specifically are for is for Jews who either remain Jewish or have not at the least joined another religion. So if you are an atheist Jew, they don't classify that as a religion. So you can come back. If you are an agnostic Jew, you can come back to Israel. If you're a Christian Jew, you cannot. So you can affirmatively out loud reject the Torah and the Talmud and all religious expression

“of Judaism. I don't believe in Judaism. I think it's absurd. You can be a non-practicing Jew with”

the right of return. You can be anti-practicing Jew, like atheist, literally atheist. Well, you can be a Satanist as long as that is not organized Satanism. Unless you are a member with your name

come in to Israel, as long as you have not joined another religion like Christianity.

“What a Christian Zionists say about that? Well, first of all, a lot of them don't believe it.”

You know? They don't believe that's true. Yeah, they're like, well, that can't, that can't be true. Because they've been told that Jews and that Israelis love Christians and that we have this shared religious heritage, which, of course, is not true at all, and that they are, you know, they're friends of Christians. So it's like it boggles their mind. Well, that can't be true. Well, that is true. Israel's not a friend of Christianity, not at all. There are laws

on the books in the state of Israel that forbid evangelism over the airwaves, that forbid evangelism

to miners. As a matter of fact, Ron Cantor, I don't know if you know that name or not,

“Ron Cantor is a Christian celebrity in Israel, and he was on X one day talking about how”

loving and kind Israel is to him as a Jew who believes in Jesus. And they will phrase it that way on purpose, so as to not imply that they're a Christian. Because if they say they're a Christian, they might have to leave. So they'll say, Jew who believes in Jesus, they're trying to work the system. So I look him up, Ron Cantor, and he has a television station, a Christian television station

in Israel. And in 2020, they took his broadcast license, because they said that he was telling

Jews that they needed Jesus. And so he had to promise that he would not give the gospel to Jewish people, that he would not try to spread the name and the fame of Jesus over the radio waves, so that they

“would give him his quote unquote Christian station back. And there he is, bragging about how great”

Israel treats Christians. They took away his broadcast license for sharing Christ. So there are these so-called Christian Jews in Israel that, again, they probably don't call themselves Christian Jews. It's Jews who believe in Jesus. There are some that are there like him who's purpose it is to tell Christians how great it is in Israel. Listen to this person, tell you about how great Christians are treated in Israel. But you and I both know that Christians are not treated

well in Israel at all. No, no, they're not. In fact, they're there. The subjects have a lot of hostility and in a lot of cases violence. And it's interesting how many Christians were expelled from their lands and their homes in 1948 with the foundation of the formation of the state of Israel. Well, the church there is still having their property confiscated to this day for settlement. You know, with the Orthodox church, they Israel closed their bank or froze their bank account,

because they didn't pay their tax. It was a tax that they just suddenly threw on them all this time. They've not had to pay that tax. Israel throws it on them. They couldn't afford it because it was years worth and they confiscated their bank account and threatened to take their property. The Ottomans didn't charge churches tax. And so when the Ottomans were in control of the promised land for 400 years in the military system, they didn't charge churches tax.

Israel started just a few years ago. And so that Christians have pressure applied to them. I mean, native believers, the ones who whose churches have been there longer than Israel has been a state. They're the ones that are facing the pressure that it's very hard to get Christians in America to care about at all. And their Muslim rulers didn't do that during the Ottoman period. Okay. So the answers know, the Muslim rulers didn't tax churches during the Ottoman period.

They were very kind to Christians. As a matter of fact, they took care of our holy sites. They had rebuilt Islamic authorities, rebuilt the church of the Sepulchur three different times over the centuries. They had a law protecting Christian pilgrims on their journey. Like nobody messed with the Ottoman Turks. The Muslim rulers of the Holy Land rebuilt the church the Holy

at Con fire and they re-did the roof. But if you've seen the church of the Holy Sepulchur, you can

“remember imagine what it took to redo that. It's an enormous and decaying. I will sadly it's”

amazing place. Well, a lot of those sites have started to decay since 1940. That one definitely is

decaying. And just physically, the physical building, the plant is kind of falling apart. Some of the opposition to the Zionist project in Great Britain in the 1940s was on account of the Muslim authorities having taken such good care of our Christian sites that it was a bit of gamble to let Jewish authorities do that. You know, I've heard people say if it wasn't for Israel, we wouldn't be able to go visit our holy sites. There wouldn't even be holy sites anymore.

It's like, "Who do you think has been taken care of them this whole time?"

It's been the Islamic authorities who've had control in that region that because of the Islamic

view of Jesus, they've actually been quite kind to the holy sites in the region. What is the Islamic view of Jesus? Well, I don't want to say that Muslims have a high view of Jesus. The reason is is because Jesus is not fictional. Jesus is real. Jesus of Nazareth is a real biological person to this day. He still exists. He's in heaven. He's not here. I would say that Muslims have a false view of Jesus. It's not the real view of Jesus,

but they're actually quite fond of him. And so they believe that Jesus was sent by God,

that he was of God, that he said true things, that he performed real miracles and that he's actually

coming again. That doesn't make them Christians. It doesn't mean that it was believe Jesus is coming again. They do. As a prophet, not as the Messiah, but they believe in his return. So, there's been an effort to, to propaganda is American Christians on this question in churches as well. Yeah, I don't know how official it is, but it's when you, when you listen to Christians talk about Islam, they'll say things like, well,

we've got to maintain good relationships with Israel because Islam and Christianity are natural enemies. Well, I'm not saying that we're not. I'm not saying that Islam and Christianity have ever

“had any kind of partnership, but honestly, it's rabbinic Judaism and Christianity that historically”

has been at odds. It's the idea that Christians and Jews have gotten along this whole time and that we have to band together to protect ourselves against the Muslims. There's very recent notion. This wasn't something that was ever posited like before the 20th century that part is brand new. And it comes from the Jewish talking points that you see on the television and the news constantly. So it's a political construct. Yeah. It's been accepted as a theological reality,

but American Christians. I would say that's the case. There's so much crossover between what is political and what is the theological, when it comes to Israel that sometimes it's really hard to determine what is theological propaganda and what is political propaganda. Because when it's being done to us, the people doing it for them, it's all political propaganda. They're not trying to change our religion when they tell us this stuff as Christians. They just want us to have

“a different political perspective. They have to come at it from the angle of theology. Yes, right?”

And so that's the sad thing about dispensationalism is it, at the heart of it, there are people who really believe this for sure. Darby believed it. I think Scofield believed it Christians today. They believe it. They're very committed to it, but it's being promoted and propagated by people who don't believe it at all. And who don't care when we're the other. But they find it very helpful, you know, for their purposes. So one of those interested parties is that is the actual government of

Israel. What is the government of Israel doing to convince American Christians that's supporting the secular state of Israel as their religious duty? What is that propaganda campaign look like?

the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs. $729 million through their public diplomacy unit is what they

“call it. 729 million that was budget for the year 2006. They have a part of that $729 million for”

public diplomacy called Project 545 which is $145 million budget set aside to affect or manipulate AI and search engine results primarily for Americans. Just to give you an idea of how much that is at the height of the Soviet Union. Their budget was $3.5 million for what they called their active measures. Active measures was Soviet propaganda. $3.5 million. But that had to cover essentially five continents because the Soviet Union was everywhere, right? It was a bipolar world had to cover

most of the world and that it was through that program that they, you know, did their common term exercises and were sure infiltrating communist propaganda into education and religion and all these different avenues where it could affect Americans and also people from all over the world. So $3.5

million is what this Soviet spent at the height of it for their active measures. The public diplomacy

unit under the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs is a quarter that, right? It's about a quarter that but that's all spent on the United States. They're not spending that from, you know, on other other nations on different continents and different countries that can't benefit them politically. Israel just has to have the United States as an ally. It doesn't have to work hard to gain Brazil as an ally, right? Or anyone else, we are the ones with the veto power at the UN and the

security council. Of course, all they need is us. So we're the ones that are the the nice recipients of that $145 million affecting even what our AI says and our search engine results. All that is affecting us, how we, you know, view Israel. But on top of that, you see the religious infiltration which I know you've had other guests on to talk about that recently. But through the the different paythrues, what is, I mean, just give us a broad outline of what the propaganda effort

“against American churches from Israel looks like. Geofencing. For example, what is that?”

Yeah. So there were four different organizations that had basically signed up registered with Ferra, foreign agents, registration act. Yes. And I think it was clock tower X and then also show faith by works and then a couple more. And the Geofencing thing, I know that you've discussed, basically, they're outline, outlining churches on a map invisibly so that when you go there and you leave, it'll ping your phone with different types of propaganda. Yes, right? Assuming that

you went to church there, so maybe you would be more susceptible to some, you know, dispensational advertisement about why it's your duty as a Christian to support Israel. But there's a lot that hasn't

“been discussed. That really has the Geofencing campaign. And I think that once it got exposed,”

they had maybe said at some point Brad Parskell had taken a step back and said maybe we won't do the Geofencing thing. That was just a suggestion or we wanted to do that. It was a four million

dollars. It was the same group, four million dollars sending a bus with basically and Israeli,

it's an Israeli propaganda bus with VR headsets and things for it was targeting young men ages 16 to 24. So it would roll into church parking lots and it would have a multimedia display for the young men to watch the IDF in action. And it would show what happened on October 7th and then how he

Jesus right or God or scripture or the Torah. It wasn't theological. It was purely political.

“Well, not just what it's being done in church parking lots with the knowledge of the of the past”

for the church. I would assume so. So when they did their fair of filing, they didn't say we're going to these specific churches. They did say we're going to churches in these states. But yeah, you can bet your bottom dollar that if they have permission to roll into a mega church parking lot and set up shop with their bus for young men to come out and see the videos about how great and heroic the IDF is that I'm sure that the pastor would give them permission to do that.

I mean, Christians oppose abortion probably for bunch of reasons, but fundamentally because it's the murder of innocence, the baby didn't do anything wrong. Right. Can't kill the innocent and Christians know that and they stand on that. This is the most the IDF is most brutal military in the world, which is globally renowned for murdering innocence at scale. Right. How could any Christian pastoral out pro IDF propaganda on his property? You know, I wonder how

many of those pastors understand that it is propaganda? Keep in mind, they're not going out of their way to consume media that is outside of the ecosystem, the news ecosystem of that which is controlled by pro Israel or if not pro Israel pro neocon pro war programming. I mean, they're getting pro war ideology from places like Fox News. I mean, if I'm sure that if you took a sample of a hundred mega church pastors and asked where you getting your source, your news source,

“probably all of them are going to put Fox News as number one. So that's what they're getting. You”

know, when you talk to these pastors about Israeli war crimes, you're like, you know, did you know that they got caught the IDF on camera, Sodomizing a prisoner so badly,

his large intestine fell out. He went into critical condition and they almost, you know,

he almost died in the hospital and then they just let him go back to Gaza and said he couldn't return that way they couldn't, you know, charge, they couldn't have the trial of the IDF soldiers who did that because the victim can't come back to testify and the pastors Christians whoever you talk to about this will say that doesn't sound right. That must be Hamas, you know, propaganda. It's like when you talk to them about the death stats in Gaza and you say, do you realize that

“almost eight people out of tin that are being killed in Gaza at least that are civilian non-combatants?”

It's really easy to look at you and just say that's propaganda. That's clearly from the Gaza, you know, ministry of health and when Israel admitted those figures in February then that doesn't make the news and they don't see it and it's really hard to convince someone who believes that Israel is chosen by God and special in a way that you're not special. It's really hard to get that person to then evaluate what's happening in light of biblical ethics because who am I? I'm not special. Who am I

to question God's special chosen people over here? And so that notion of God playing favorites, God having a special people based on ethnicity that clouds their judgment from start to finish. It almost beats down mentally the person who holds that view. It dismantles their ability to look objectively at what's happening in the Middle East. It's almost because it fell that way. Yeah, it's a self-loathing because you're just a Gentile. These people,

these are the chosen people and God, yeah, God's loving. He's kind. He let you in to their religion,

but you're never going to be Jewish, they're special and it's so infuriating because the scripture

teaches the exact opposite message, I'm God's chosen. I'm the child of Abraham according to the scripture very explicitly in Galatians 3. In 1 Peter chapter 2, the apostle Peter says that

about the Christian church with which is shockful of Gentiles. He's not talking about Jews.

“Word the chosen nation. There a desert, what, what, what, what? Who's murdering a lot of innocent people?”

It's okay to judge them. God's not going to, you know, be hostile with you because you've looked at what's happening over there and said, you know what? It's not okay to bomb an apartment building because there might be a terrorist and apartment 3G. There's so many different things about the IDF that Christians need to know, but they don't have a frame of reference because there's

not an effective news source breaking through to evangelicals who are all pigeonholed in like

this neocon influenced news environment. And so it's like, you know, they're targeting program. They're AI targeting program that is designed to, I think, maximize civilian damage

“is called the gospel. That's what the IDF named it. There's two of them. Well,”

there's, there's three. There's, um, Daddy's home. You've heard of this one? No. Oh, Daddy's home. Okay. This is, uh, astoundingly inhumane. So there AI targeting program that, um, let's them know when a target comes within a specific location, essentially geo-fencing. But instead of church, it's their home, it will notify essentially sky net when to send the missile when to drop the bomb. And it's called Daddy's home because it, it waits for the terrorist, a

legit terrorist keep in mind. These aren't people who've been tried or anything. There's no trial for them. The alleged terrorist gets home and then it pings Daddy's home. Daddy's home then sends the missile to kill them. The family. They would say that that is a target and the target use some human shields and if human shields die in the process, that's on the terrorists. But it's called Daddy's home because it's waiting for them to get home. That's not something that the American

military does. We don't wait for targets to get home before we bomb them, but the IDF does.

So it is about 90 percent, 85 to 90 percent of the people dead in Gaza are civilian non-combatants.

That's not from trying to miss civilian non-combatants, right? That's like you targeting them. It's like doctors testifying that more than 400 kids that they've seen in the hospital, last remaining hospital in Gaza that's still open. 400 kids dead with a sniper wound, a sniper round, caliber in the head. It's not from Shrapnel. And so yeah, they're waiting for people to get home before they blow them up. And anyways, that was Daddy's home. There's another one that this

“called the gospel. And so I think that it's, what do they call the gospel? I think because it's”

deadly and kills a lot of people and that's their way to mock Christianity that that is their good news. So let me explain that. The bloodshed of the old covenant religion of Moses is what symbolized the forgiveness of sins. It allowed them to see and understand the Messiah and what Jesus would do on the cross and by his blood were actually forgiven. But after the temple fell in 78D with no altar, no temple with no priesthood to make those sacrifices with no blood being

shed, where does the blood come from in rabbinic Judaism? And I think it comes from their fixation on war. I think that they view it as almost an actual real atonement that they are accomplishing something of spiritual value when they go to war and killed Gentiles. That seems controversial. I'm sure, but their version of Passover, which is not the Passover that God gave Moses,

from the Passover described in the Torah? Well, because there's no actual sacrifice, there's no actual

“bloodshed. So all the different rights and rituals of the cedar that they observed. None of that”

is in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament there was unleavened bread and there was wine and bitter herbs and then the sacrifice itself. So we're an animal would be killed. Yes. Yes, for the

purposes of atonement. In the Passover, their Passover version between the third and the fourth

cup, they drink to the damnation of the nations and in particular to Rome, who they associate with Christianity, presently, presently. So whenever Mike Huckabee says, "Happy Passover," it's a very common thing for dispensationalists to wish happy Passover for their Jewish friends. They don't realize what they're saying. They're not observing the ritual that God gave Moses. They're observing

“the ritual that the rabbis made up in the centuries following Jesus. The third and fourth cup,”

they take a drink and they pray a prayer specifically for the destruction of the nations. The

goi, the goi aim, and in particular Rome and in Jewish and rabbinical writings, they associate Rome with Christianity because Rome became Christianized and that's the association that you see together in rabbinic literature. One of the prayers that Jews pray three times a day, prays for the destruction of their enemies. This isn't rabbinic Judaism is not Christianity minus Jesus. That's what Christians need to understand. It is a completely different faith from what you see in the pages

of your Old Testament. Because that faith required the presence of a temple where God lived.

Yes, absolutely. It's in the architecture of the religion. God designed it so that it could not

“endure without the temple. That's why God is always promising the Jewish people in the pages of the”

Old Testament that if they misbehaved, he will have the land vomit them out. He will bring them into exile. He will wipe the land free of them and he created a religion that would be temporary. It all revolves around the temple and they weren't free to change that religion either. I'll give you an example. There's a story in the Old Testament of two guys that were left behind to essentially guard the altar as Moses and the elders go up on the mountain. Their names were Nadeb and Abahoo.

They took their own light and decided to light the altar with their own fire. King James calls it strange fire because it wasn't native to the altar. It was their own light. They use their own zippo in other words. And God destroyed them. He killed them. Those two guys, the ground swallowed them up and ate them, destroyed them in fire because the faith of the Old Testament was given. The Celtic religion, two Israel very specifically. It had to be observed a very specific

way through the specific means that God gave. They were supposed to deviate at all. It's like the guy that reached out to grab the Holy of Holies before the ground and God told God didn't tell him to touch it. He told him not to touch it. Follow God's rules as the points. It's a very precise religion because everything is designed to point to Jesus in a very specific, in a very specific way. And so the Passover religion that they're rather the Passover right that they're observing.

And in fact, most of rabbinic Judaism is way more deviated from the Old Testament than just what Zippo was used to light the altar. It's complete manufacture of new rights and rituals that aren't in the text at all. It's not the same religion. So when people say Jesus was a Jew, it's like, well, yes, in a sense he was. He was a physical descendant of David and of Abraham. But if you're implying that Jesus was a rabbinic Jew, no he wasn't. That was completely different

Jesus would not have recognized Ben Shapiro's religion. The Apostle Paul would not have recognized it.

“They would have taken a look at it and said, what is this? Because it didn't exist. It didn't exist.”

They call some things the same words, but it's a fundamentally different religion. So I, most Americans are not aware of that. You would think that ordained ministers would be aware of that. My cuckoo be is an ordained ministry yet a church for years in Arkansas. Well, I mean, you would think that my cuckoo be would know as he quotes Genesis 123 that Galatians 3 specifically says, that's not for Jews. So then you're left with one of one of two

options. The first one is my cuckoo be a Baptist minister knows his Bible. The Bible says in Galatians 3 Paul says, I'm not talking about Jews. It's not about Jews that verses about Jesus and the promises are for Christians. They're the airs of the promise. That's option A. He knows that. But he's lying.

The other option is he genuinely doesn't know that. He totally ignorant. He's never ever read

Galatians in his life. I don't think that's really plausible. I would suspect he has read it. I don't know what he does with it. Other than at a certain point, we have to start asking ourselves if there's active concealment. If you know what the scripture says, that these are promises for Christians, but you are applying it to Jews in direct contradiction to what the apostle Paul said

“in terms of how that should be interpreted. At what point do we start looking at them as the bad guys?”

Well, I definitely look at them as bad guys. I'll say that. As to motive, though, it's a little

mudier, I think. I mean, I look at someone like Huckoo be in it. Feels to me, unknowable, of course,

but it feels like he really believes what he says. But it's so obviously in contradiction of what he says his faith is that there seems to be like a delusion or something going on. Huckoo be is a weird one because, yeah, he's a Baptist, most Baptist are dispensationalist. But with Huckoo be, you see things that I can only characterize as deceit. For example, Huckoo be saying that the Jonathan Pollard, he acted in your interview as though he was vaguely

familiar with Pollard. Yeah, I had him. He came by stopped. He stopped by the embassy and I let him. He just wanted to say thank you as though I could just do that right to stop and talk to the ambassador. But I was watching that interview and I had just done an article at Insight to Insight. My sub-stack that laid out how Huckoo be had been working for years to get him released from prison before he was released. So I'm watching that. I'm going to

do he forget that he had been working to advocating for his release for years, like 20 years. Yeah, it was a long time. So, you know, has he been that much of a hardcore dispensationalist the whole time that as he was governor of Arkansas or even before he sees a spy who stole our nuclear secrets to give them to Israel who would then give them to Russia. Did he even back then love the Jews so much? He was trying to get a spy sprung from an American prison

because that's a little bit, that's so hardcore dispensationalist. I don't really think that's

“a spiritual thing. In other words, I think that's a political corruption. I don't think that's a”

spiritual corruption. I think that the political corruption is using spirituality and Christianity as a shield to do evil and wicked things. And I think that that's a lot of what you see in the dispensational marketplace of ideas, so to speak. You're seeing a lot of good, honest, God-fearing Christians that we go to church with and we may work with good folks, our neighbors, who have this mindset that, well, I have to support Israel because the Bible tells me too,

but the people at the top that are spreading that message, the Mike Huckabies of the world, they do no better than that. They know better and they're defending things that cannot be

followed your career that you've been writing about kind of intro Protestant disputes for a very long time and you're one of the American experts on this topic, so like you know what's going on

“in Protestant Christianity in the U.S. I think. Is that changing? Is what changing? This”

reflexive commitment to a non-Christian theology that has resulted in very weird political questions. Absolutely. Christian supporting genocide. How could that happen? Yeah. This is how you're- So I would say at insight to insight, I have the average age of my audience, probably over 50. It's a pretty old audience and it is every single day that I have people say,

I never knew that Genesis chapter 12, the Abrahamic promise is specifically reserved for Christians,

or I never knew that Romans 11 says that Jews without faith and Jesus are cut off from God and Abraham. And they're coming to these conclusions for the first time and a lot of that is because of the internet. The internet's been around, I mean, what? A long time at this point. But these discussions on theological polymix, that has not been readily available online. Plymix is a field of theological study like apologetics, but it deals with those who claim to be Christians but are not as opposed

to apologetics, which deals with other religions. Plymix is more internal. For example, Mike Lee says a couple weeks ago that Mormons are Christians. It would be Plymix. It would be the field of theological study where you'd come along and say, well, let's evaluate the claims of Joseph Smith and compare that to the Bible and see whether or not that's Christian. So that may be more of a Plymical thing to do that is opposed to apologetic. That's new.

“And so there's a lot more Christians, I think, at least this is my finger on the pulse of”

Evangelical Christianity online, a lot more Christians desiring to be discerning, where they're actually looking at what people say in the name of God and comparing that to the Word of God,

to determine whether or not what they're being told is accurate. The first thing that they're

discovering is what the Bible actually doesn't say, I have to defend Israel no matter what it is that they do. So it sounds like there's a kind of second reformation going on within Protestant Christianity. Yeah, the reason I hesitate at reformation is I would like it to see a little bit more robustly theological. So it's still on Israel, it's still political. At this point, I think right now, even jocals are kind of angry that they've been lied to about what Israel is.

“And one of the reasons why I think they're freaking out on their side when they look over and they say,”

look at all of this anti-Semitism. They're seeing people that are mad at Israel for the vast

majority of people for Christians who have finally figured out that Israel is not the chosen

people of God irrespective of denying Christ. It's that for the first time in their life, they figured out that they've been lied to about something and they're kind of mad right now. Yeah, I think most people will calm down if you give a little bit of time. So societally, there are a lot of people who's eyes have been open to, hey, you know, what they taught me in Sunday school for 20 years, 30 years, 50 years is nonsense and they get a little bit of feisty,

you know, they're upset. Well, they should be upset. Well, that's the natural result of what it has to do. What did I do? Questions, temporal questions, you know, there are limited significance theological questions which bear on eternity are inherently meaningful. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Is there any popular Protestant American Christian leader who is rejecting explicitly rejecting dispensationalism in all that it's political implications?

So what's happening in the evangelicalism is a complete fracturing of the movement as a whole, so that the big name leaders like your John MacArthur and your RC Sprols, those guys are dead,

Protestantism and evangelicalism. You have a lot of people flocking to Eastern Orthodox. Yeah,

I wrote it. It's all of this. Yes. Which, you know, as a Protestant, I never thought that I'd

live to see that, but evangelicals are responding to there. I didn't know what it was. Eastern Orthodoxy.

“I had no idea what that was. It's all system without the Pope, you know, that's what most people think.”

They wear black instead of white. Yeah, it's the Eastern, the Eastern church. And so they are Catholic, like, excuse me, Catholic, like, if you're a Protestant, you're looking through Protestant eyes, they both have in sense. Their priests look like they wear dresses. You know,

they say words, we don't know what they mean and they speak in different languages. It all looks like

Hocus, Pocus, or Protestant, but yeah, you know, there's a lot of difference between the the Eastern and the Western church. Protestant evangelicals are Balkanizing, though, even in American evangelicalism. Because we recognize that there is a sickness among Protestants that have decided to cater to worldliness by that. I mean, doing what is popular in the culture

“as opposed to what is scriptural. Yes. And so there is, I think, held a pay for mega churches”

and for your your big box, evangelical, super center churches. Because for so many years, their church growth methodology or their church growth policy was just to see how big they could get. Almost growing a church the way Rome satisfied the Romans, they're at the end, just bread and circuses, you know. I used to joke about churches shooting midgets at a cannons just to get

a crowd on Sunday. You know, pastors were coming in on zip lines and there's always something

attraction all and that's really great until the first time in your life you hit a real crisis or you have something that is deeply troubling you, you have an issue in your life that a good time on Sunday morning doesn't help you overcome. You need something deeper and people are right now I think fighting almost resisting the big box mega church experience in the United States which is good and they should and I hope that many of those big churches not not because

they're big but if they're big because they were trying to water down the doctrine and just see how many, you know, warm bodies they could put into a room at the same time and call the church, they should die because that's not actually biblically what a church is. So anyways, with the Balkanization you have Christians going their own way so you don't see a lot of those huge names anymore. The big ones like Greg Lori, they all, you know, he's got his own scandal right

now they're all scandalized and going away. But there are some mid I called them mid to your names of guys that are not bending the knee to Israel and they're going to be in the camp that you would call covenantal or reformed but they exist and so I work with for example, NXR, Joel Webben, I do a sub-stack for him and he's been very good on this topic. There are a couple of guys in Ogden, Utah with what's called new Christendom Press that have been very good on this issue too.

“So they're out there. You have to look a little bit harder. You're not going to see any time soon”

a church markade that says we do not stand with Israel. That's not going to happen. But I know for a fact that there are a lot of people inside American evangelical churches that are approaching the pastor privately saying can we talk about Israel? Why are you promoting this? Hey, on Sunday's, in Sunday's sermon, why did you say Israel is the chosen people of God? What are we? Are we not the chosen people of God and make them wrestle through those important

issues? Yeah, because the point is not just that it's inspired American Christians to support

but that it diminishes Jesus within Christianity, like in it corrupts the Christian faith.

“I mean, that's the real cost it seems to me. Yeah, it does. And it, it's frustrating too,”

because you see the very people whose alleged ancestors crucified Jesus, almost using him as a mascot for, for genocide, where they don't believe in Jesus, but they will look at you as a Christian, and they'll say, you know, you're Messiah's Jewish. Like, well, yeah, and your ancestors killed them, like, well, I don't owe you anything. Mike Huckabee said, was it this week or was it last week

that we have any eternal moral debt to the Jewish people? That line frustrated me so much.

What do you mean we have any eternal moral debt to the Jewish people? Jesus paid my debts. I'm a Christian. I don't have any debt to anyone, especially not on ethnic grounds. Well, that's that's absurd. As a matter of fact, the new covenant, the ultimate identity politics. Oh, my. The, the new covenant that Jesus installed, the difference is now the, you know, the parents eat sour grapes and the children's teeth is not set on edge that we're not paying

for what our parents did. And so the eternal moral debt thing is just like in a front to what Jesus actually accomplished, but you have people who don't believe in Jesus, try to take property

“and ownership of Jesus. And that's why we push back on them sometimes over the, the Jesus is Jewish”

thing like you'll see some of us troublemakers push back on that. We don't mean to say he's not an ethnic descendant of Abraham, but he's not ribbonically Jewish and you don't own him, no one owns him. He's a son of man. He belongs to the entire world that he came from the Jews. That's true. But he came for the nations. He came for everyone. And, and frankly, anyone who believes in Jesus is more an authentic child of Abraham than any Jew who doesn't. So at the end of the day,

that's frankly, that's my promise land. Because the scripture says, I may join air with Jesus Christ. Not them. I'm the joint air. Jesus is entitled to all the Middle East. He owns everything. And, you know, the, the frustrating part of listening to the dispensation list is that they get too caught up on who has the keys to the desert trailer park. Like who has, you know, who has ownership of this little strip of land in the Middle East? And it's like, let me get this right.

God, the son, became an embryo and planted himself into the womb of a virgin, lived a life on earth that we should have lived. And then he died a death on our behalf. God, the father imputes in to him. He died as a substitute in our place, vicariously on our behalf. And then proving that his sacrifice was accepted and that he truly is the son of God. He rose again from the dead, 40 days later ascended into heaven. And he's coming back again.

“And what you're worried about is who has the keys to the West Bank and Gaza?”

Like the Christian message is that Jesus is the owner and operator of every square inch of God's creation, every bit of it, not just this tiny little strip here. And dispensationists are so busy focusing on how does this prophecy play out and how does that prophecy play out that they miss the big picture? When it's a message of hate and division and violence and average was the Christian messages love and unity and peace between people. Like I was thinking

the other day, Tucker, how messed up it is that the message that you get from the Jewish front,

basically, regarding the Iranian more right now is if you love Jews the way you can prove that,

if you really love Jews as a Christian, the best way for you to prove that is for you to give them

or in Iran. It's like how offensive is it? As a Christian to be told that the way I prove I love

Jesus is to give you bombs to murder people who, by the way, if we're talking, I'll bless them that blessed the encursed them that curse thee. Those people are related to Abraham too.

Through Ishmael. Yes, of course. There is ethnic lineage also. So like you want me to give money

“to one child of Abraham genetically to murder another one. And that's how I prove my Christian faith.”

That's not Christian faith. That's downright satanic. Jesus said if you harm a little one, it'd be better that you tie a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea. And here we have this whole Jewish/Christian cottage industry where

“we are collecting millions of dollars every Sunday into the offering plate to go directly to the”

Israeli state, not to share the gospel, not to tell anyone about Jesus and the good news of what Jesus did on the cross to save sinners from the wrath of God, but to give money essentially to a genocide fund. My cuckabee was a pastor. Do you think my cuckabee has ever stood on a street corner

“and told the Jewish people who their king is? There's not a chance in hell that he's done that.”

Or else you wouldn't be the ambassador anymore. They'd have bought him a plane ticket. And so it's like

if you love Jesus, first and foremost, if you're a Christian, tell the Jews about Jesus.

Because God wants to bring them to a saving faith in the king that they've rejected. And then just like anyone else that you love, just because you love them doesn't mean you necessarily give them what they want. Because what Jews want from Christians is political clout in the United States to continue this violent Ponzi scheme that they have going on in the Middle East. And doing that in Jesus' name, so far as Christians are concerned, they're not doing it in Jesus'

name when they don't need our money, but you know what I mean. We can't, we can't as Christians participate in that, you know. Pretty all, thank you for that. That was great. It could be with you.