Is SGA the Best Player in the League? Plus, Tatum’s Return and All-Defensive Team Picks.

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Coming up on the Zack low show.

We got a lot of ground to cover. But first reminder, the Zack low show is coming alive to the Fillmore theater in Denver, Colorado on April 13 tickets are on sale now. Right now, get the before they're gone at the ringer.com/events.

We're going to Denver April 13th. All right, John Hollinger is here. What a game last night in Oklahoma City between the Thunder and the Nuggets. Shake it all just Alexander ties Will Chamberlain's record for 20 point games. Makes two dagger threes.

Sement some self as an MVP favorite.

“Is he also just the best player in the league right now?”

How worried are we about Denver? They're down to six in the West. They just can't seem to stop Oklahoma City guys are out. Well, guys are out for both teams. We take we talk about that game and the MVP and SGA and Yokeitch and all of it.

Then we talk about Jason Tatum. And the Celtics and the state of the east up and down the standings. And then John and I pick are all defense seems tentatively rough draft. Do you only get 10 spots? We have a lot of guys in common.

I think we had seven of 10 in common, which is actually less than I thought we would have in common.

But it's always fun to talk defense.

We like to spotlight defense here on the Zach Low Show and finally Nick Freedell comes to talk about the warriors. They're 500 steps hurt. Porsing is his back but then didn't play last night against the jazz. They're just clinging to, I don't even know what they're clinging to. They're ninth in the West, they're 500.

They're in the nine 10 bracket of the play and they really can't get any worse than that. Based on who's taking, we talk about the big decisions ahead. Dream on green, Steve Kerr, LeBron James and whether the warriors can vault back into relevancy. Next season and in between, I just watch a lot of games and I got a lot of thoughts. And we get 10 minutes of Zach's random thoughts about basketball teams around the league.

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“Welcome to the Zach Low Show. Look who it is John Hollinger of the athletic the greatest of all time. How you doing sir?”

I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me on the show. We got a lot to talk about. There's a wild playoff race in east now for six the sixers are are down to eight the west is getting interesting almost across the board Jason Tatum is back. The lakeers are winning without LeBron James like kind of a lot, but we have to start with maybe the game of the year last night. Oklahoma City Denver three door versus yokage two another flagrant foul and just the two best players in the league giving us an amazing dual yokage 32 13 and 14 a triple double SGA one ups him 35 points 15 assists zero turnovers nine rebounds 14 of 21 from the floor and two almost identical step back three

these sandwiched over a yokage slash Jamal Murray four point play to win the game. It's now three oh Oklahoma City over Denver for the season two of the games have been very close there's been guys missing all across the board Jalen Williams has missed every game win jalen Williams has missed every game big jalen Williams certainly did not miss last night's game. It did not miss very many shots thunder still two games up over the spurs for the one seed Denver. It's not been great for Denver since yokage came back to basically been a 500 team for almost 40 games now they're down to six I would like to start here Mr. Hollinger two questions for you did SGA cement the MVP last night number one and one B is it time to just open the door and have the discussion is he now the best player in the NBA.

It's weird because statistically yokage was off to such an amazing start before he got hurt that it seemed like he would just run away with it and since he came back statistically hasn't quite been at the same level. But I think I'm wondering if there's some lingering effects from that injury he's been a little bit more turnover pro and he hasn't shot a quite as well he played I mean that was one of his best games that he played last night actually since he's returned. High profile daggers definitely tend to have an exponential impact on a close MVP race right he's he's on the team with the best record he's clearly the best player on it they clearly I mean you see how different they are in the non-shay minutes.

Even having AJ Mitchell back and having a little more shot creation in the lineup and as long as John Williams is out especially I mean for them did not have John Williams for basically the whole year and still have the league's best record and best point difference I think is another feather in his cap although that also speaks to KC's overall depth so yeah I would say he has the advantage right now which I would not have expected at the midpoint of the season before yokage got hurt I thought yokage was just going to have to.

“you know too much of advantage in kind of the advanced stats and and some of those areas to offset the difference in record and now I think she's put himself probably back in front.”

Yeah the advanced stats are now close enough that again very similar to last year tie goes to the team with by far the best record and they're now nine games up over Denver.

the loss column and I believe it was a but you mentioned AJ Mitchell we had a whole bunch of interesting characters coming back or falling off in last night's game we had Aaron Gordon returning it was not returning is the second or third game back but returning to this matchup. And a certain himself right away is like I'm just going to bully everybody on the court because Jalen Williams isn't here to deal with me know what sets not on the back line chat home group was out hard to find was out like I'm just going to go crazy.

And it reminded you of his importance to Denver so much of the focus on AJ is Denver's kind of leaky defense and how many holes he can plug he's just as important to them on offense because they just don't have anyone else who plays other than yokage with that level of force and that and like the thunder just have a bunch of guys that he can put under the basket including.

“this year we had a cam johnson another no show game where he's benched down the stretch in favor of a red hot too hard away junior that is a continued problem.”

And we had she just going off torching every single defender that the nuggets put on him Christian Brown got the assignment as he usually does at least when Peyton Watson is not available and he just can't stay in front of she can pick and choose any defender he wants and you're like Bruce Brown Spencer Jones come on down up to Jamal Murray. I'm going to blow by all of you to the point that the nuggets were just like we're just going to double team you over half a word every time you have the ball because we just don't know what else to do.

And he picked them apart with one of the best passing games is career and I thought it was fitting.

John that he ties the Wilk Chamberlain mark the tie he tied it right you didn't break it he tied it for 20 points a game and then the next two possessions you know this is a scoring work a hallowed scoring mark a Wilk freaking Chamberlain scoring mark the next two offensive possessions are. Driving kick three I think to big jail in Williams and then the one after that. Shea sets a ball screen for AJ Mitchell who's back and he was bullying everyone in front of you and like shoulder check the Aaron Gordon and hit a freaking step back three and she's always been such a willing screener and it's been such an important little mini lever and Oklahoma City's offense and then beyond all that down the stretch he disrupts multiple Aaron Gordon postups he's only credited with one steal and one block in the game.

It felt like he had more than that and some of them may have been credited differently he has the like defensive back steal late in the game where he runs back and intercepts a pass and it just reminds you like this guy's a really good defensive player to and last night he showed out in every possible way every possible facet of his game on a night when the scoring was going to be the focus and the nuggets were just basically willing to live with those step back threes are like we're just we're if you're going to if you're going to see the double coming.

And just sort of pre-empted by shooting a one-on-one step back three over Christian Brown.

We have to live with that because we don't have any other answers and they died by it and I do think the MVP was like you know we've got all these minutes issues right that in games eligibility issues.

“There was a burgeoning Wemby case, which I think was going to have a little bit of momentum if this game had gone a different way.”

I think Lucas case has been a little bit slept on because of all the by the way much deserved attention on the antics and the just apoplectic reaction to every call and non call.

He's played with a lot of zip in the last couple games without LeBron on both ends of the floor.

“I think there was that case. I mean, Cades case kind of fell off.”

There was a bunch of interesting stuff happening and there's always yolk edge.

I think Shay, if you didn't slam the door, you game pretty close last night. And I think for the first time in a while years given that yolk edge has looked 95% of themselves. It's coming back from injury and worse defensively. Yeah. Yeah.

I think there's a-- I think there's not pretty like Nikola, come on. Let's go. I think there's a-- there's now the door is open for it's not just the fact to-- Is the-- the Nikola yolk edge is the best player in the world and you don't have to think about it. I think the door is open. So I just-- I'll ask you the second question again is Shay.

Shay just like the best best forget most valuables. He's just the best best player in the world right now. I think he has a great case for it. I think he might only have that case for about six more months.

“But because there's a-- there's a French guy coming for his crown, but right now I think you have to give it to him.”

I thought the ending of that game was really interesting.

I mean, the free had never been a big part of Shay's game, especially like a step back three like that.

And adding that range to that step back game that used to be much more of a 15 to 18 foot operation for him. I mean, it's just-- it's a more valuable shot for him to get into than-- than the midi, right? And then be-- it just makes it so much harder for defenses to send extra players at him as we saw on multiple occasions last night. Like if you're Denver, like in a tie game, you're okay with the opponent taking a three-point shot. The extra point isn't really worth anything.

But for-- for Shay, it wasn't three versus two. It was just-- this was the distance of shot that he can get to. What if he goes any closer, he's going to get double-teamed, and they're going to force the ball out of his hands. I think-- I have to think more about it because I've just been so like yolk. It's just the best-- he's the best player, like even last year.

He's like the best player, but tie goes to the team that's a million games ahead in the standings. If he's going to pass like this, Shay, 15 times, he's not going to get that every game.

No, he never has any turnovers. Defensively, he's not just a small plus.

He's often a big plus. I think yolk-a-choice has the size and vision edge and the size is going to get him. All kinds of rebounding numbers that sort of lift up his advanced stats. I think it's a coin toss now for the first time in a long time. And on the night like last night, Shay was the best player on the floor. He's averaging 35 against Denver in three games, he's shooting like 60% on Tuesday.

They just cannot do anything with him. And so before we move on, I do want to like-- this is now three games between two teams that if you would ask me who are the two best teams in the NBA going into the season, I would have said Oklahoma City and Denver, if they meet in the conference finals, I think that's going to be the de facto NBA finals, Denver is now six, but we've seen three games between these two teams of a variety of guys missing every game.

And we've learned some things about the basketball matchup. And so I want to throw a bunch of ideas, a couple of quick ideas at you. Okay. When Denver's healthy should they just start Peyton Watson and bring Kim Johnson off the bench. If not in general, then for this specific matchup to have him guard SGA and just deal with the shooting downgrade.

You are swallowing by starting Brown Watson and Gordon all together, even though percentage wise Watson and Gordon are both over 40%. Is that should that be on the table for this matchup because they just have no Christian Browns over match, and they just have no other answers.

“And it's not like Peyton Watson's going to stop SGA, but his length in his quickest, I think, is there only shot at anything other than like a complete gimmick defense?”

Yeah, pulling Cam Johnson from the starting lineup is going to be Denver's adjustment after their first playoff loss. Right? Like is it like is there a way to bet on that? Probably on caution to get in touch with the honest. I keep mixing it up with isn't there a serial that's like khashi that like make sure again. I keep thinking that Yanis is sponsoring a healthy serial company or that the serial company has gone into the gambling spaces as a pivot in the serial market anyway.

I'm sorry. Continue on Peyton Watson and Cam Johnson. What does your company do? All we do gambling and serial. Yeah. Frooops Frooops is going to catch the Kellogg's presenting sponsored Kellogg's sports book.

Oh, man. We're off the rails. All right. So they're not really getting the shooting these from Cam Johnson right now, so like why why wouldn't you make the change? He just for whatever reason. It just hasn't clicked there. He's had some injuries the last couple weeks. He heard his finger last night in fact.

I mean, hard away was much more effective. I mean, one of the things I thought actually watching that was to get enough shooting on the floor that the other direction they could go is just start hard away. Obviously they can't.

“It doesn't help with the shame match up at all, but maybe you just say we're going to try to outscore you guys and we'll live with that ever.”

We get from Braun.

Were you surprised at that replay, by the way?

Which one? The one where Braun seemed to block the shot and they challenged it and they still call the foul. Yeah, I was surprised by the replay a little bit. I have to say, like, I just I can't I just either fast forward or do something else during the internal will reviews that we have now. You know what I was not surprised by that one of Lou Dore's arms smack you'll get you in the face. And so how the crowd was like, oh, that's a flop and booing in the lapses. He actually clocked him in the face by accident and he's lucky. He wasn't ejected from the game again and he apologized after the game.

And I would like to mimic this kind of apology. I wonder if I can apply it to other parts of my life.

Dore's apology was basically like, hey, my arms just do stuff like my arms because what I'm getting around the screen.

My arms are just their own their own entities. I don't know what's going off my arms.

“Can I use that, you know, they're like, not for arms. I'm just thinking, can I just apply that to, I'm sorry for what I said when I start talking my mouth just it just goes like, I don't know what's going to come out of it. I think this is a good.”

Dore and his found something here. I was an interesting play because you can see in the build up to that like there was there was some extra spice in the screen. Yoke was trying to set and how Yoke was trying to and how Dore was trying to fight him to get around that like you could sort of see that one coming in the seconds that led up to it. You know, there was also some spice. There's something going on with Christian Brown and Shay because Shay was talking a little like vociferous junk last night a little bit more than normal. Some of it was directed at the rest.

But some of it was definitely directed to a Christian Brown, including he hit him with the two small a subtle one. It wasn't like over. It wasn't like rocking the baby like rust.

But he hit him with the two small, which I enjoyed. I like when the thunder or a little edgy like this. Okay, so can we talk about something Christian Brown real quick. Yeah, I haven't mentioned this anywhere else. So why is it that last year he looked like he was too young to drink and now he looks like a chain smoking 20 year war veteran. Wow, I have not thought about this. Is his haircut different is he growing a lot of a clock shadow going on the beer definitely was a big factor in all this. But you're really bringing the important analysis. It's he also scored four points in 38 minutes less now, which would it would be hopefully get a little bit more than that.

“A couple of other quick things that we have learned I think from this matchup. Sure.”

The Aaron Gordon balance units minutes were rough last night. It's almost like too much of the same thing like if JV is there for the power game Aaron Gordon's power game is a little neutered. Um, Yokech on defense. It seems like they've picked a lane with him in this matchup where if hardenstein's on the floor, he's going to guard hardenstein. If Jalen Williams or Chet Holgrin is the only big man on the floor and the thunder have been reluctant to go solo chat versus Yokech, but they did it more than ever in the first matchup between the teams and we have not seen much of it since.

Yokech is basically going to play a one-man zone and guard like dork in the corner and toggle between matchups his guys sort of come into his area to keep him off the main screen setter, whether it's jailed big young Williams or Chet the main pick and pop guy. And Oklahoma City kind of is learning the ropes with that matchup. They they don't have to deal with it. They'll sometimes bring dork into the pick and roll to get Yokech involved. They'll sometimes arrange it so that the guy in the corner is a more dangerous person. Then do door, maybe it's Isaiah Joe, maybe it's AJ Mitchell. Sometimes it's even she.

But that's always an interesting kind of wrinkle and then we saw and you see a lot of teams do this, but Oklahoma City almost more than more than any of them, particularly when Chet is on the back line on the Murray. The Yokech pick and roll a lot of times they'll just let Murray go like they'll just let him drive and stay hugged up on Yokech and be like we're just not we're not giving you the pocket pass. We're going to send help to Jamal Murray and the lane from anywhere else but Yokech and I just think this is a really fun matchup.

We haven't seen the fully healthy version of it yet. We haven't seen jailed Williams at all in it, but. It's they've been close games, but the funders offensive rating and three games against Denver is 120, which would basically lead the league and that to me is the story that stands out if they don't their turnover rate is in single digits, which is miniscule and Denver just has not found any answer defensively and. It feels like a matchup that Denver at that Oklahoma City is a little more confident and now than they were in the playoffs last year and we may never see it this move this may not be the conference finals or defacto finals and Denver's got to write it so how worried are you about Denver.

Gordon and Watson at the same time, they probably profiles a better defensive team than they've been, they also weren't that great defensively last regular season and still had enough juice in the playoffs to beat the clippers and take the thunder. To seven like they when they can play their best five players are still pretty scary. I think that's the that's the proposition with Denver, but man. Do you know who their best five players are, they are you just not counting cam Johnson in the best five players now.

“I don't know how you can count of that group at I was actually in my head, I was I was doing Watson Gordon Murray joker and then a fifth player from among Brown Brown hardaway.”

And maybe Cam Johnson plays himself back into that next yeah, but that I mean that trade has just really.

Not worked out well when you consider the plum asset they gave up and the kind of downgrade that's resulted. Well and and six minutes last night for balance units who was kind of a part of that trade and the salary flexibility that it opened up for them. Three minutes for straw there who's been playing decently.

“But I don't want to say I'm sure much more important is the status of jail and Williams in the playoffs because I do think they need all hands on deck. Okay, storyline number two.”

Jason Tatum is back for the Celtics tonight. We'll see how he looks in that game. He's played over 50 minutes through two games. I am absolutely flabbergasted by how good he looks.

There's a little rust here in there, sure they're giving him sort of easy defensive assignments, whatever he looks awesome and in eastern conference where a cavalier or two is always injured.

The distance of lost four games in a row as Sartamson is missed. I think three of them, Kate is missed one of them. So let's, you know, let's not panning business or silver on seed. And the next my final pick at the beginning of the year, you know, there's something like 18 and seven in their last 25 games. One of those losses is like Detroit Detroit Cleveland Oklahoma City, which was a close loss and then they go to LA and they get swept by the lakers and the clippers two teams, by the way, who guarded cat with their centers. The just what the next we're getting used to their centers guarding Josh Hart, the LA teams flip it around cats playing this is one of the best months of cats New York tenure and they every time I start to feel good about the next.

They give me a reason to feel not quite bad but confused. And meanwhile, Boston has jail and brown who is in all NBA candidate and something some people's minds not mine, but some an MVP candidate.

Detroit and white are just as rock solid of a guard combo as there is in the NBA on both ends of the floor. You throw in Tatum and then Keda that five man lineup looks very dangerous. Boots of inches hurt obviously, but Garza fills a nice in and then they get all these bench guys who come in and either well, I mean, how's there's not a bench guy is a starter. He's been on fire. He's been on fire. He's been on fire. It seems early to say well, Boston's the favorite in the east now because Tatum has played two games and we need to see how his body responds to

a continuous NBA action, but he's looked great. He's fresh like unlike everyone else in the league. He has like no is 60 game wear and Terry's got his own kind of wear and tear. Are they the favorites? I am conservative when I make calls like that, but I'll say this. No one else in the east has given me a reason to call them favorites over Boston. So Boston, like I guess I got to see more from Tatum, but they right now feel like the most coherent and complete team out of the top four to me.

“That's probably a good way to put it. We don't know what Detroit is in the playoffs. I think there's a lot of concerns about their shooting.”

I think there's some questions about whether they could have done better than Kevin Hurder to address that. So we got to see what they are in a postseason run even though their regular season has been impressive. The next, I think, I mean, they beat Boston last year with Tatum. They, when they put their five best players in the floor, I think they match up very well against Boston because they have the two wings to play against Tatum and Brown. But then like, for a team that's kind of built as an offensive team, like, shouldn't you be able to be able to score against the Luca Reeves Canard perimeter trio of the lakers.

I like the numbers on those three because every time I watch the lakers play, one of my notes is no way they can survive on defense with Luca Reeves and Canard.

“And they're surviving on defense. And honestly, I think it's time to give the lakers a little credit because all there's just so much focus on Luca's antics on the LeBron Luca fit, which has not been very good on where is LeBron playing next season.”

I have no earthly idea. I literally, like, could be any number of things. It could be not playing at all. And all of their point differential stinks and they're surviving on close games and every loss is a blowout loss. And yet here they are, they just don't leave the conversation. They're 39 and 25. They tend to take care of business against bad teams. They just beat the Nixon home kind of convincingly. And the next, by the way, if had some good wins in that 18 and 7 stretch, they had a great comeback against Houston. They blew out the spurs.

But anyway, but the lakers are just like still here. Anyway, I don't, I don't back to the nicks. I don't, like, yes, they match up with the Celtics and legitimately beat them last year in the playoffs.

“Cat is playing really well. And like the most decisive, I think he's been as a post up guy against mismatches, as a roller to the rim and the Brunson pick and roll, Jose Alvarado is kind of unlocked him a little bit off the bench. He looks for cat.”

And yet they just, you know, like, bridges, two games in a row kind of no showed in L.A. It just seems like he's at a very good season, but it's always, there's just always something going a little bit haywire with the nicks. And it, I just, and Mitch Robinson in play last night, and he's a must for them, like with their, they're totally different team without him, but I don't know. I mean, the Celtics, the Celtics, I'm very interested to see tonight's game. They have a couple that I think they play the thunder later this week as well coming up. They're next to our atspers and at Thunder. So they're getting tested right away here.

A split would be a wonderful outcome for any team in that in those two games, but they are, they're, they're absolutely a finals contender now.

“I think they were, I said to build a couple of weeks ago, I know they're sealing probably is in quite high enough without Tatum to win three playoff series. I won't pick them to Wendy's, but all the data says,”

"There's good as any of these other teams in the East." Yeah, I mean, Cleveland on paper, I feel like they still should be the best team and, and then the, then the game starts.

And, and they're, they're not. Well, they've been, they've been very good points in the second quarter against against boss. They didn't have Jared Allen, but they had the other three main guys.

It was jarring how unworryed the Celtics were about moldly at the three point line. I think that gummed up Cleveland's whole offense. And they, they also, the way they line up now, I mean, they look so small and stretches against Boston. When you're trying to play Kian Ellis at the three against against Brown or Tatum or, or even the other guys Boston brings in. So that, that roster looked a little bit less than to me in the matchup against Boston than I expected. And I think the calves are, I've now come all the way over to the, their best look is Allen and mobility together. As good as those guys can look apart from each other, I just think they're sealing his highest when they play.

I mean, they're never going to play 30 minutes together because they're going to be staggered, but they need both them and play a lot together.

Mobley and harden just haven't had the same pick and roll chemistry as Allen and harden. I think that's one of the reasons why you feel the lack of Jared Allen, even though the spacing will funky when they're both out there. Dean Wade. Up to 37% on threes. He's big for them. They kind of feel complete when he plays and he just plays two out of every three, two out of every four games, or we're going to see screws at all this season. He's got to be running out of baseball hats. I feel like he's worn 75 different baseball hats. Yeah, I think he changes them and half time of these games and Kian Ellis, he's got to be like one of the only players in NBA history.

Who basically couldn't even get in the rotation for the worst team in the league and is now a big part of the rotation for a team that could plausibly make the finals anyway just.

But Boston looks great. Jason Tate on looks great. Everything about his approach in the first two games. Like I just literally in any, I just can't picture a better realistic first two games for Jason Tate him. He looked great. The team looked great with him. He played on selfishly played all around basketball. He got on the boards. He threw passes. He've set screens. Just a home run first. I, I, I, I was jaw, I gave both games and just I expected way more rust than there was only a little. Yeah, you know, I was at that first game against Dallas. And obviously the crowd got a little concerned when he got, uh, sprite commercial done that dunk.

But then he, he came back in the second half was just like he said, which was just really solid like got to his spots got to his jumpers even pre injury. He wasn't getting to the rim much.

Uh, so the biggest concern I think you have with the Celtics is just can it get a little too gummed down into the dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble, pull up jump shot.

Tatum's turn, Brown's turn, Tatum's turn, Brown's turn, Brown's turn. There, there are already this lowest pace team in the league already take the few shots at the rim.

“And so is, is that going to be because that's what undermined them. I think a little bit in the playoffs last year. So is that going to come back and bite them in, in a playoff matchup.”

And you hope that's part of what they've learned about themselves with Tatum out.

Yes, they play it to slow it's basically going to take among the few shots at the rim. A lot of that is by design on all fronts like they want to minimize turnovers as like almost priority number one and those two things mitigate against turnovers. Against turnovers, but even within a sort of slow conservative system, they got a lot of stuff going on in their offense. A lot of different like stagger screens, Spain screens, a lot of movement.

“And that's the biggest takeaway from you from the first two Tatum games, other than how good he looks is they have landed so far and need to continue to land on the right mix of styles, the right blend of styles.”

When you introduce a player like Tatum and Adam to a player like Brown, you're inevitably going to get someone on one play and that's fine. It's especially fine when it's preceded by some action that gets Jason Tatum a mismatch in the post against Sam Merrill or whoever and you just goes crazy in the post. But they've got to find the right blend and I agree with you that toward the end of that next series in particular. They did not they did two things wrong in this series number one, they took way too many threes in the first game when they had a big lead I couldn't believe it and number two that whole season they were just too much your turn my turn stagnant offense on the next.

Two bad games in LA, a weird last 30 games where they're record since that Dallas lost that was rock bottom for them at home when they got blown out by the Mads and I think they were two and nine or something in an 11 game stretch they've been very good record wise yet every loss seems to be to a good team. But the other encouraging trend in that time has been their defenses gone from 18th 20th to I think they're up to like seventh in defensive efficiency for the season allowing way fewer threes changed their scheme what what have you seen like what's what's real and what's not real about the next defensive surge to you.

“I think I mean even though McBride has been out I think just having their guys has been really important I mean they had a stretch before then where they were kind of running out of players and we're bringing a lot of guys.”

Now deal are ended up giving them some pretty good minutes but they had some other guys in the mix who were not I mean not having the data stretch were Jordan Clarkson was a guy they were like counting on right. When you have that many holes in your lineup yeah your defense is going to look worse so I think just them being whole again has been a big factor. I'd say those that's the two biggest things but I don't know what when I hear you talk about them and the ups and downs the thing that kind of goes off my head is.

Yeah this is like what a second tier contender looks like this is what it is this is what it looks like when you're good but not quite good enough right.

They didn't they didn't trade all that stuff to be a second tier contender I do think cat has been a little better on defense as they simplified it for him like he's mostly although they've they've blitzed both Luca and Kauai in the last two games and have not looked very coherent doing it. When cat is in like a high-ish drop and then late switches on to guards that's worked well for the next and obviously they have three very good wing defenders in in Adobe bridges hard Alvarado's a pest so I you know there are defenses they just need to have a nice complete stretch against some good teams all right let's take quick break and then we're going to talk more about defense with John Hollinger.

This episode is brought to you by Mikkelob Ultra the official beer of the NBA part of why we all love watching the game is a superior talent on the court spurs pistons. Jim and Yamma get knocked all over the floor kids hip-checking him Paul Reed's elbowing him Jill and Dern's going right at him and he just gets up and gives it back and has six of the most spectacular blocks you will ever see a player have including one of the best I've ever seen on kid cutting him at the rim leading the spurs to a statement when on the road that's why we watch the NBA to see guys like that do things like that but superior plays aren't just for the NBA.

Mikkelob Ultra superior is worth playing for and Dernal and Mikkelob Ultra dot com slash court side. Mikkelob Ultra court side 25 to 26 no purchase necessary. Open US rise in its 21er over begins on October 1st, 2025 and ends on June 30th, 2026 multiple entry periods the official rules at Mikkelob Ultra dot com slash court side for free entry deadlines prizes and details. All right speaking of defense words sniffing awards season now and I had not thought much about my all defense teams and I thought I know you take awards voting extremely seriously although I think on just like me you don't have a ballot anymore you take it very seriously.

“I had never had a ballot never not once not even the SPN now.”

Wow I didn't know that yeah and yet you still right maybe the best awards column on the entire so maybe maybe you shouldn't get a ballot.

All defense you only get 10 spots I saw you get first team all defense second team all defense you got to play 65 game rule does apply and there are no positions which that's where I like to start I can't remember where you fall on this you have some people who. I have to know positions saying I want to construct an actual five man team with like guards and wings even if. The five best defenders for them are probably centers or do you just say hey you've gone positionless I'm going to go positionless I'm going to put whoever I do know if it's five big men it's five big men where do you where do you lean.

Probably more toward the latter I mean the one thing I will say is I do consider these guys relative to other people at their position so like the five most valuable defensive players are going to be things right but. The relative value of say Derek white versus random point guard X can be greater than the relative value of.

“Okay let's do or let's just go first team okay I had three guys that despite their overlapping positionality I think for me.”

We're pretty quickly penned into first team and maybe you might it wouldn't surprise me if you have only two of them okay but when be.

Assuming eligibility when be chat home grin and Rudy go bear on all all on my first team I had home grin on my second team. Okay you have let me go bear first and went be and go bear on my first team yes okay and again chat second team versus first team congratulations you're all defensive either way. Is any reason why go bear over chat.

“Yeah I just I mean go bear deals a little better like with physicality can't be pushed around underneath as much I think when with with home grin is your lone big you're still very vulnerable on the glass.”

And to some physicality like in post ups and whatnot so they they do some things to correct for that a little bit but like like with when chats on the floor like Oklahoma City can't rebound a free throw. Right like they like it's pretty that's most glaring example but like they they they can be pushed around underneath much more easily when when he's out there I think go bear as much more solid on the glass so I got to give him a little bit of an edge.

I don't mind that I was thinking around with some of the tracking data stats and I will continue to beat the drum on this is loudly as possible.

When go bear switches on to a guard or a wing and it goes badly it goes like keystone cops level badly and and the most famous example being the luka shot in the conference finals where he talked all sorts of junk echo bear. Go bear against isolation this year he's faced a hundred and eighty three of them which is a ton zero point seven three points per play allowed I mean that's one of the best marks in the entire league it's preposterous he's awesome at every part of defense. And the one common denominator is Minnesota has an awesome defense when go bears on the floor no matter who else is with him and a not awesome defense when go bears off the floor whether it's first or second team he's got to be all defense again.

I don't think he has a shot at defensive player the year because if one banyama's healthy he's getting it if he gets six five games he's getting it but I think he needs to be for me first team all right give me so you have one be go bear first team set second give me your give me your three remaining first team guys. All right Scotty Barnes from Toronto I think I give him extra points for being a high load offensive player who also has been elite on the defense event. I think if there was like a clutch defender of the year award he would probably win he's had a number of game saving blocks deflection steals mostly blocks.

Yeah, size he has mobility has good hands like I did to me he's he's really taking a step forward this year and become one of the truly elite defenders. Okay, so at the risk of of alienating. All my friends in Toronto I have Scotty Barnes second team which I realize is the a damning insult and slanderous against the honor of the raptors franchise which is named after named for the drastic park movies okay. But Scotty Barnes has been unbelievable if you want to put him on first team I have no quibble with you and also gets points for I like to reward versatility it's why bam is going to be a mainstay on my all defense ballad until he falls off Scotty Barnes in the same game can guard your center and your point guard and do it equally well depending on what the team needs.

“You could be an all defense player if he's first team second team that's up to you so I have him second team all right, so that's the first to sum up to sum up your argument you hate Canada.”

I love Canada actually. I really would like to spend more time in Canada.

But yeah, the spooky molder portion of the raptors fans are going to be after me for Scotty Barnes and none of them will say who this is what always makes me mad is when you leave someone off of any.

You leave someone off of any award you get people who are like well this guy did said no brainer he's got to be in there and like all right, so who's off. Yeah, right you only get 10 anyway, okay, so you got Wemby go bare Scotty Barnes two more spots for me. Derek white. Okay. Best room protecting guard and basketball by a mile.

Crazy good at defending transition sequences fast breaks.

“Good good hands good like solid at like the regular guard stuff, but like the fact that he adds room protection from the point card position just is like a next level thing that makes him so valuable.”

He challenges I looked it up he challenges. Four shots a game at the rim and opponents are shooting 55% on shots at the rim when Derek white is the closest to Fender.

You that that's those are the numbers of a lot of starting centers in the NBA across the board it's incredible.

I have Derek white second team myself. I really wanted him to be first team and I wouldn't care if you were first team. I loved Derek white so much he's one of my fair players in the league either way all. No brainer all deep, but I wonder if we're going to go 10 for 10, by the way, all right, so far we're we're said we got one more one more first team spot from a star challenger. And I went with a star Thompson from the Detroit pistons. We're not going to go 10 for 10.

Okay. So you want to sort. I just think he's been he's been electrifying whenever I've seen him. He's one of my tough feats. The athleticism, the energy, the toughness, the you know, the fact that choice number two defense.

“And I think he's been a huge factor in that I get I mean Detroit. It's kind of like it's a little bit like okay see where there's a lot of good defenders and so you're trying to give you up credit a little bit.”

But I think he's been fantastic. I think he's actually had a better defensive season than his brother this year.

So I had him on my first team.

Interesting. Maybe I need to be considered. This again, this was this was hard like I wrote down 19 names and there's a lot of the last nine guys was hard. So I have I have no pistons, which feels horrible and I may be wrong about a solid willing to consider that beef stew. I mean should be on one of the teams.

I just they're just two things I can't get by low minutes total compared to the other guys. Yeah, in part because he self suspended himself for seven games and it's just like I know he plays a lot with the starters, but bench guys you just face a different diet of players than starters. So I didn't have him a star I might live to regret and again rough Detroit fans rough draft that's all this is rough trap. So here was my first team.

Okay. I had Wemby, Shet, Go Bear, OG and Anobi. Okay. And I'm and Thompson. Okay.

And so I'll just read you my second team and you can tell me like who you don't have because you have a star Thompson. Or maybe and who who I'm wrong about my second team was Derek White previously mentioned Scotty Barnes previously mentioned. Bam out of bio Jason Wallace and jaded McDaniels. All right. So the guy I did not really have that highly that you mentioned was jaded McDaniels.

Um, partly because that same go bare thing that you mentioned.

So how high can I put him on my, on my all defense board. Uh, so that's it. You're right.

“There's a little bit of a logical not whole, but, um, quibble there that I think he's been amazing every time I've watched him play on again on a variety of different kinds of players.”

Um, I'm willing to open up that spot for a star Thompson OG and an OB's a non negotiable to me. Jason Wallace is a non negotiable to me. The Derek White and Scotty Barnes are also non negotiable to me. I suspect you disagree with one of my other other non negotiable.

So OG and an OB and Bam out of bio I had on my second team and then Thompson I had on my second team.

Okay. So we have we only have like one difference. We only have two different players. And then you I have a men Thompson and jaded McDaniels and you have a star Thompson and who. Chris done was my last player and partly this was revenge for him not being eligible last year when he totally should have made it.

And then partly is because I still think he's been really good this year.

“I think he's been a big part of the clipers turnaround and so.”

So I went with him. You said you had case in Wallace right I did not have case in Wallace he was one of my final cuts. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, like tough part with okay scene was like okay I'm going to put case in Wallace on when they put Lou Dord on the best player on every team.

Um, not always not it depends on the matchup sometimes.

I think it's interesting like why like so the among my omissions Lou Dord stand out is like number one. I'm on green everyone. I think Evan Mowley has a sneaky good case that is I think being overlooked, but what's is this just a is door just a victim of it's this is almost like. This is such a hard award to get because there's only 10 spots versus three three all NBA teams. Yeah, exactly because if I so if I had a third team.

“I think I would have gone dream on Lou Dord Evan Mowley.”

And then the other guy was too money camera from Portland both both him and clinging, but I think especially tomorrow have strong cases. Yeah, but like you said we only have to that's where this doesn't get so hard we only have. We only have the two teams to deal with when you. I think the metrics have a lot of trouble diving up credit on okay see. Because it just shows everybody is being awesome, which I think it's partly true, but.

When you're trying to and hard and scenes on Ellen Rooster is not eligible. You guys who are just like not eligible and it was like, man, if all these guys were eligible, I don't even know which funder player to honor. I think case and Wallace threads the needle of creates a ton of turnovers and gives nothing back in terms of being stout in in rotation and and pretty switchable. Honestly, more than his size would suggest, but again, I I have the holder right McDonald's. I just think McDonald's is length and tenacity are so important to Minnesota, but you're right that go bear is the common denominator.

Maybe that's the SR Thompson spot, but tons of like and and the guy we didn't mention like.

This is always so weird as we perceive guys when things are new and fresh and they go to the front of our minds.

Is Dyson Daniels like this much worse, the fence would be the share that he goes from second and defense player to the ear vote and he was on my first team all defensive like like our eighth guy in consideration. What what happened is still right is going down this year the other interesting thing this happened this year. Nikhil Alexander Walker is taking a lot of turns on opponents number one scores and he's been really good on defense. Like if you were going to if you're going to nominate one hawkswing for all defense, I think you'd have an debate internally as to whether you would go with.

Nikhil or Dyson is good as as good as Dyson is like anticipating and making those kinds of plays. Nikhil on ball against the lead scores has been really solid for them. Is is when be your defense player there that I paper over. Yeah, yeah, no brainer. Yeah, yeah, total game changer. In fact, he sort of blocks out the sun a little bit for Stefan Castle who I think is on my list at least like a case to be yeah and the others receiving votes here right. Yeah, absolutely he's on my long list of others receiving votes and I'm glad you brought him up because.

Did you see Spurs Rockets on Sunday? I did not. So I wanted to talk about that with Bill and we kind of went too fast over it. An interesting thing happened in that game that might be worth 10 minutes to go back and watch your former team, the Memphis Grizzlies earlier this season. I put Jaren Jackson Jr. on Stefan Castle and went under every screen and basically just like told the spurs. If you're taking at this at this point this hadn't happened, but just go with me. If you're taking Harrison Barnes out of the starting five and replacing him with Julian Champenney to put as much shooting her on one be as you can.

We're actually going to try something. We're going to put our center or shop locker or one of them anyway on Castle and treat him like a non shooter and almost nobody has done that since then.

Credit to almost e-solo with a creative tactic. The rockets did it in that game. They put Shen Goon on Stefan Castle almost the entire game that Shane Goon and Castle were in and put wings. I think Tariys and started on Wembed Yada, but they just rotated a bunch of wings on him. And if I were the rest of the league, I would be alarmed at how quickly and easily the spurs solved that problem and we're totally ready for it. Number one thing they did was Castle just scored a lot in ways that the rockets were going to concede like he hit a corner three.

“He hit a long two on a pick and roll where they went under. He had another one a driver. He beat the defender to the spot and finish through him. He did all the things that you have to do when they treat you like this.”

The other thing they did was they just found great matchups for Wembed Yama in other ways and the main way they did that is they found Reed Sheppard's guy and either screen for Wembed and pin downs over the reverse and put Reed Sheppard in the action with Wembed. And if you're not switching that a hole is going to open somewhere and the spurs just like exploited all that stuff. But it was a very interesting tactical game. And I thought a very good sign for the spurs and that move to take Barnes out of the starting five.

He had gone off to such a great start shooting and then he slowed down. I was still kind of surprised when it happened. And it's a big elevation for Julian Champagne who was kind of like on the fringes of the league a couple years ago, but he's played really really well that team. I think the spurs can win the title. I think the thunder are are reassuring themselves if healthy is the clear favorites to win the title. But I think the spurs can do it. Yeah, I think they are clearly in that conversation now without a doubt.

“It's interesting that center match up because the spurs actually saw that a lot of castles rookie year and I think they got some reps with that and that's why they were able to kind of snap back so quickly in that Houston game.”

They sort of got used to that the second half a last year before when he went out. The other team was putting their center on Castle almost every game and he got a lot he got a lot of reps and a lot of comfort with that and where kind of the open threes are going to come from and where he'd be okay taking them. And I think there was kind of some institutional knowledge from that that carried over to that Houston game. I gave you one homework to summit that we will end with unless you have more all defense thoughts which I forgot to do this from my last two guests because I'm just my brain is adult.

One nice thing about a tanking team and it could it could be anything and there are a lot of tanking teams to choose from so John Hollinger did you prepare a nice thing or you're going to have to go off the cuff here and think of a nice thing and if so it might be tough. I can think of one nice thing actually.

If you have a question of wizards second rounder.

Jamir Watkins.

“Have you like this dude on since we're talking about defense of players have you watched his guy on defense?”

I have. I absolutely have watched the competition. I thought you were going to say Sharif Cooper at first. No Watkins has been playing really hard for them stood out in the combine for his defense.

And as done so again in the limited minutes he's gotten for the wizards he's his offense may never be at the level where he can play a ton.

But he's interesting and fun to watch especially if you're you know if you're watching a tanking team and you watch a tanking team on defense especially like this it really stands out when somebody plays like this guy does so. I think this guy has a nice thing. I think the grizzlies are the most entertaining to watch of the tanking teams and I'm not including the warlands who is not tanking they're 11 in the end of the last 20 games. I think the grizzlies are legitimately fun to watch not in a like, oh I'm a basketball nerd what's Ole Max Prosper up to they're just fun to watch right now they're playing no centers at all like Ole Max Prosper is their start center shooting 40% on threes.

Who I really liked before the horrific leg injury he had in Utah and his a purpose Memphis finds the classic Memphis guys. If you were a first round pick and you're long and athletic we're going to take a second chance on you both of these guys are perfect second chance guys Hendrix is like a backup center creating all kinds of have a key shooting 41% on threes. They just take the ball from you they're very handsy they're very aggressive on defense. Tiger home is back hitting like his preposterous Tiger home floaters that John going baby. Oh god I shouldn't have brought that.

Scotty Pipp and Junior just takes the ball from you they just have like a and I've already this segment I already gave. Two weeks ago to GG Jackson Junior who is reestablished himself it's a potential part of their future and has been like a decent all around player for them this year.

Utah is broccoli Washington's cauliflower Memphis is like a nice bowl of pasta like I can do it it's it's fun to watch.

“All right John Hollinger see you got something up on the athletic today on Jason Tatum what else.”

Yeah well I've been writing a lot about these college guys it everyone's excited about and tanking the season for so I'm headed off to the SEC at ACC tournaments the next couple days so I'll have a bunch more. But your scout had on yeah all the scouts around the league are dispersing across the country to various tournament sites including some here in New York for the Big East tournament I guess is still here maybe there's another one. John Hollinger the best in the business I guy that I read trying to get into the business and inspired me it's always wonderful to see you I'm a little disappointed that your jersey is a peach tree jersey and not a magic city hoodie behind you.

So yeah let me read everything you write to the athletic challenger and Duncan podcast every week John Hollinger the man thank you sir. Thank you. All right before we welcome Nick Fredell and talk all things warriors I just want to bounce around just random thoughts I watch a lot of games I got a lot of random thoughts I have no place to put them let's put them here East playoff race.

“So that's what I'm saying is now Orlando 35 and 28 seven Miami eight Philly is only a game ahead of Atlanta now at nine and Philly is a mess injury wise obviously a couple interesting notes bank hero.”

The teaming his season has been hot lately scoring assisting shooting a little bit more efficient and trying to get to the rim more I think I looked us up a couple weeks ago for a podcast he's only averaging like three post ups three post touches rather for a hundred possessions which is miniscule for a guy his sides I think Orlando needs to find a way to lean more into that a little bit particularly when they get everybody back healthy if they ever get everybody back healthy Anthony blacks even heard lately he's been awesome to see me.

This is a real stat since February first they are plus one hundred and seventeen total points in a hundred and twenty minutes so a point a minute with a wear and bam on the floor at the same time.

Completely changed and revitalized their season even with norm Powell her Tyler here was playing amazing weekends has been in the lineup a little bit now but those two guys have.

I'm just whatever you need ban to do on either end of the floor he's versatile enough to do it Charlotte just burn the orange jerseys the cheetos jerseys they stink get them out of my life it by the again we're talking random thoughts Russell Westburg versus the media.

“I've seen that one last week when rust challenge the Sacramento media at a press conference in one particular reporter who some stuff he didn't like I guess it was said or written.”

Go back at rust give him the floor to save say what you want to say and that reporter then didn't really do anything and then went out of when address the topic on his podcast which neither here or there to me what's interesting but if I had been there. I'd like to think I would have asked Russ what was said that you actually thought was inaccurate or incorrect because he went off on this whole thing of you're not in the practices and you're not in the film sessions and so you don't really know the implications you don't know what you're talking about.

That line of thought from players and sometimes coaches always drives me crazy because I'd love to be in the practices or not allowed I'd love to be in the film sessions you can let me in because if not then I can only see what I can see or hear what I can hear and if the implication of what you're saying is only people who have that level of access basically players coaches former players and coaches only they are fit to cover a basketball and talk about basketball. Is that the world that you think fans want to live in like do you think that's a healthy media landscape for the NBA where only x players at x coaches can talk about the league because it's not any would affect like who's listening to or watching or talking about the NBA and like yeah I'd love to go into film sessions but I can't is it that's what always drives me crazy about that line of thought.

You might have heard me say I have Joe Mizzula as my coach of the year so far with the apologies to JB bigger staff Jordan not in several others always great coaches in the NBA.

I just think what Mizzula has done and what the soldics have done is next level and a couple of things I wanted to highlight from that cabs game that they blitz the calves on the road Tatum second game we've talked a lot about Tatum talk more about Tatum.

And the calves inverted the matchups and said well we don't luka shouldn't pretty well from three we want to keep our center Thomas Bryant at the time close to the rim we're going to put him on hugo Gonzalez and sort of let him roam around and put a wing on luka gharzo who can chase him around.

“The three point line and on the very first possession not the second possession not 45 seconds later not a minute later not like all we need some time to digest what happened on the very first possession.”

The Celtics put hugo Gonzalez in a pick and roll and said Thomas Brown you think you're going to hide we're bringing you up into the action and the calves were like oh oh we didn't expect this and I can't remember who the ball handler was but hugo said a screen popped three they pass it to hugo the calves panic rotated to him because Thomas Bryant was scrambling around and he swung it to I think jail and brown for an open three that's a sign of good coaching when you get a coach and a team who adjust to your adjustment immediately like we didn't even need any time to digest this.

This that's the sign of a good coach and coach of your candidate another interesting thing.

Take note of this end of the second quarter in that game the calves get the ball back with 25.4 or 25.8 seconds left I can remember which.

So basically they can run out the entire clock and take the last shot more or less. Someone's bringing the ball up. Boss and sit back in their defensive looks for all intensive purposes like the calves are going to get the last shot.

“Everyone who shooting 64% from the line I think this year.”

He's been better than that in prior seasons but you know he's that's where he is this year goes up to set a screen for the ball handler in that moment when everybody sets the pick and is therefore in the play he's it's not away from the play he's in the play.

Luca Garza who's on him basically just grabs him hugs him and I'm like that's interesting that was an intentional foul.

They intentionally with the calves in the bonus the calves were already in the bonus the Celtics intentionally found there was like 14 seconds left and they get in the half at that point and it's just a fascinating mathematical bet of. We're sending everyone to the line thinking could miss both could go one of two and we're turning a non possession for us or a he vet best into a real possession for us. And we've concluded that the math of that depending on the free throw shooter and in this case Evan mobile screen center is an appropriate free throw shooter for us to fall works out in our favor now it didn't work out in their favor. I think you went one of two and paid and Richard who takes every end of quarter shot missed but that's a really interesting tactic and now I'm going to be watching for it.

It's something that like a yearly coach would do but you don't see it a lot in the NBA with the other team in the bonus and there are other coaches who do lots of interesting things at end of quarter situations like that Spolstra and Mark diagonal in particular like to suddenly start trapping the other team to try to speed up their possession and get in game it so they get another possession just interesting little wrinkle. Yeah, go German out for the seat or German I can't remember what we're I think it's a German now out for the season that stinks I think pretty successful first year for him all things considered but the planner for shyness is apparently acting up in the end of place Sacramento tonight couldn't pay me enough money sorry like these tank team versus tank team games are just I think we should just simulate them and spare everybody and people should get their tickets refunded.

Jail and Durin love Jail and Durin deserving all star deserves a place in the all NBA discussion like that he's expanding his game.

“Mid-range jumpers are not looking good it might be it might be time to bag those for the season go back to the lab and bring about next year I liked it yet I think you'll get there I think you'd even in time.”

Be come like a pseudo corner three point shooter maybe even a little better than that but that's like time time and the time may not be now dot did you even chenzo just want to give them some flowers one of the best transition defenders in the NBA just throws himself in the plays headlong and disrupts these transition shots at the rim were like where did he come from how is this guard. With his hands up causing this much havoc at the rim let's see what else we got here clay Thompson. up to 38% on threes and I'm happy to report for those who are not watching the tanking Dallas Mavericks.

Although it's much more fun to watch now with the Cooper flag back in the rookie of the year race which can't manipulate would have a head now. Clay Thompson can still go on a heater like almost nobody else in the NBA old man Clay Thompson is still running around taking these contested threes are like what that is a crazy shot not for him but man he keeps still making these shots. And he can still make five of them in three minutes and delight the crowd and it's awesome and I want the warriors to try to get him back just for fun.

Landry sham it kind of is completely changed the next really grinding on defense making a lot of open threes stealing crunch time minutes on a lot of nights from sometimes dash heart late in the kill bridges just a great under the radar season for a guy who's bounced around and bounced around and always seems to get in the rotation and then for whatever reason mostly because he just goes on a close.

Albert and Shen Goon.

“It's alarming to me that the jumper has sort of vanished and after that hotstart he had from three it's becoming an issue for the rockets.”

One of my favorite games within the game.

Anthony Edwards against various pick and roll coverage is particularly. Like he's been very passive is the wrong word, but when you blitz him he's been very diligent about just getting off the ball making the simple pass getting the wolves offense moving. I like when the blitzes are a little softer than they need to be a little later than they need to be a little lower on the floor than they need to be. I love when he's like, oh, you didn't come all the way up here. I'm just going to either go split the trap and go through you or I'm so much faster than you big man help the fender X.

I'm going right around you toward the rim and the same thing for drop coverage. He loves mid range jumpers. He's a great mid range shooter. He's one of the most dominating scores in the league. He's the number one reason I've been optimistic about the wolves all year. Sometimes when he sees the right big man in drop coverage, he's just like, I'm going at you. I'm not going to try to shoot over you. I'm just going at you and I love when he does that and when he mixes that aggression and it's it takes the wolves offense. I think to another level and gets his rim frequency up even higher and his free throws up even higher.

Let's see what else to have in my notes here.

“Oh, just one more thing. Definitely so leveling up. Not getting I think as much attention as when Benjama obviously is to find castle one of my fair players in the league to watch”

Propostrously good on both ends of the floor for a second. Your guard is passing is crazy a little turnover prone, but his vision is like very advanced for his spot in his career.

Still in Harper. Awesome. Devon of a cell is one of those sort of just glue guys that makes stitches the whole thing and do go here and line up. He's treated like an A plus shooter by defenses and he basically is great three point shooter, good mid range shooter, getting a little more feisty going to the rim and a little more creative trying to finish around the rim and defensively. You know, I remember I interviewed him a couple of years ago from my most intriguing players in the league thing and that was one of the areas where he talked about like I probably haven't been as good defensively as I need to get and I think the spurs were a little like that we thought to be a little bit better.

“He's he's getting into it now. He's in people's jerseys and passing lanes is getting deflections. He's taken on tough for assignments when he needs to.”

That's been a quiet and I think important sublot in the spurs rise to championship contention and lottery stuff I talk a little bit about it with Nick Freedell later, but I do think there's going to be big change before the 2027 drive certainly teams I talked to expect there to be big change and and starting to hear there's some momentum for. One of the systems that incentivizes winning after a certain date in the season. Oh, that's a complicated thing to enact it may not ever get past. It's complicated to sort of work through about what's the date. How do we set the date to teams know the date how much to win the count?

They count for lottery odds, but of all the sort of bigger proposals bigger than let's change pick protection rules let's tweak the odds here there of all the bigger ones. I've heard more momentum for something like that than then other kinds of stuff like the wheel or let's put all 30 teams in the lottery or whatever. Just something to keep an eye on. All right, let's bring a Nick Freedell to talk about the golden state warriors and whatever the hell is happening. Happy. Happy Nutella for guests. Make this on him, let's be sure of the month van. No Nutella is Nutella. But in with them. Well, well, look who it is. The beat reporter you do not want on your team's beat because he's like freaking you or where he goes. The great clouds go. Nick Freedell who went from the bulls suck beat at ESPN all over the place.

The net's for a hot second and it all went. Hey, why are there? And now the warriors who are 32 and 32 after losing to let me check Blake Hinson and the Utah Jazz when they skeleton crew of warriors they have fallen to ninth in the Western conference in the bottom half of the plan bracket, which is as far as they can fall because they know him below them other than Portland trying to win games in the West.

And it's just this year is just a sad trombone. Jimmy's gone KPs and out of the lineup. You finally came back the other day did not play against Utah.

The team is obviously not going anywhere this season. The best they can do is get into the eighth or seven seed and get smacked around in the first round. The more interesting questions are about the future, Mr. Fredella. Jameon Green has a player option for next season. Chris stops for Zingus is a free agent step on Steph and Curry is approaching age 39. I think Jimmy Butler will miss.

What? What's what? How are you Nick? Because it's a lot of geek Santos who got bless him as playing hard. The Anthony Melton has been great. I think the gem ski has been solid. He's extension eligible.

“Quentin posts sometimes starts sometimes barely plays. It's just it's the other Curry played last night not Steph but Seth.”

There's dudes in the botched core the first time that play like that guy's on the wars and even know it's. It's a rough watch right now and it was like when the gem injury happened we knew like it's probably over it was probably already over but it's now it's over over but now you're in this stage of like everyone is sitting with the reality that like this is it. This is what we have right now. How's it going there. I missed you too first of all. Here it is going through you know this is your life it's always good to be back with you and have these moments I think off the top here let's say the good news Steph turning 38 39 so you don't see him even more than where he's going to be but as far as the Warriors go.

Yeah this is the reality of their situation they have all these older pieces they have all this money that's still on the books. I think next year can be interesting. I think this year has been they've been one of the most interesting teams I've ever covered which is saying something given all the crazy teams that I've covered through the years but every day there's something going on but the reality is. The Warriors thought at the beginning of the season that they could still in the best case scenario. Beyond really the fringes of title content and it just didn't happen they were losing games early the schedule was rough.

You can't rely on Steph and Jimmy at the age they're at end-raim on to play at the same high level every single night injuries caught up to them. Zack as we look ahead to the future the reality is Steph is only ever said I want to be in one place so he's not going anywhere Jimmy's going to rehab the knee you hope he comes back somewhere around maybe the middle of next year. You've got to figure the dream on's picking up that option worth a twenty seven twenty eight million dollars and with poor zingas if he can prove at all that he can stay on the floor absolutely he fits but he hasn't been able to prove that so I don't know why anybody would feel confident about that going into the summer where I still have at least some someone's of hope for them to be not just entertaining next season to cover but.

“I think they could still have a little bit of a push is they do have all those picks and I think they have one more move within them do I think they're going to win another title no.”

But I think if you put all the picks and you make the salaries where you can get one more player to put around Steph to try and make one more run the reality is their run as a top level title contender is done. And I'd say as I've said many times this was always the most likely scenario this is what happens to stars who stay with their teams their entire career and have great teams are what happens to great teams they get old and the young cavalry ain't ready in time for the old guys to really win.

And there is honor in being a good competitive team and I do think this team's still 500 if Jimmy at state healthy the schedule is easing up for them right like the pre January their schedule is holacious and it's gotten much more spaced out in easy since then they were really sort of looking forward to that is the time to write themselves. I'm going to trade coming for something that was going to help them this year and ended up being poor zingas who they really didn't think like great fit for our team will definitely help us this year obviously just hasn't played very much.

And I think there was a reasonable expectation that hey we can we can challenge Phoenix for the six spot we can get in we can be easily the best team and the plan if not for the seven spot rather maybe challenge for the six spot get in and and make some noise because their record with Jimmy and Steph was what it was last year. Which is awesome they want to play out series who knows what happens in the Minnesota series of stuff doesn't get hurt I picked the wolves before the series anyway for the record but still it would have been a competitive series.

“And I think there's a road map to them being a good team next year and that's completely fine.”

I'm glad you put the stuff stuff to bed because you know people are going to bring up the stuff this stuff that can we get stuff to win or stuff not going anywhere they're not trading stuff he's not going to be asked to be traded unless something crazy happens.

The dream on and cur ones are the interesting ones to me and I legitimately don't know what's going to happen with either one of those cases and then the trade.

Is it going to be it's Janus they can definitely be out bid for Janus we don't know what's going to happen with him over the summer like at this point I'm starting to think he's just never going to ask for a trade like every wolf of Wall Street mean they could suppose that I'm like dude what's happening like are you just are you like I don't know what's happening. And if not him then I just don't know really who it is that they would go all in for so I don't know man it it's kind of makes me sad and there's like this whole idea that they should just sort of tank their us the season I they can't tank out of the plan.

“So I'm assuming that when Steph is Steph is healthy and this runners new thing is run it's course I assume he's going to play and they're going to try to win is that correct or am I wrong about that.”

What's the play he just has been able to be out there now and a month and a half and everybody thought going into the breaks that he was going to be out there and then he came back and he couldn't really move and get up and down and you get really worried when you start dealing with a knee issue for any player at that age but it's stuff and he makes. The world go around within that organization as we all know so I think he still wants to play the next couple weeks are going to be really interesting there because you know he wants to be out there but they're going to sit there and say Steph if you are not.

100% we're not putting you anywhere near the floor because it's not worth it we all agree they're in the play and they're going to probably get absolutely drilled if they were to get out of the play and get into the first round and then what so as far as the curse stuff. I absolutely thank you's coming back next year okay really shocked me if he doesn't come back because he and stuff have the relationship that is like this there is a respect level between each of them. And whatever stuff wants with this team the staff is going to get if Steph wants Steve Kerr there and he said it repeatedly through time that he that's his guy then he should be there to finish this thing out and Kerr will get a ton of money to do it but I think he really is still enjoying this and the process and the day to day of.

“I'm going to get everything I can out of this group I think he really likes coaching the younger guys you mentioned geese and those he's taking a lead and opods.”

Get crushed within parts of the fan base but he's playing a little bit better lately.

I think I think the warriors did pods and deserve I mean didn't he also say something about being an all star sonny pod there's like isn't there an unfortunate pods quote out there it's not just the it's not just like the warriors like lake up saying. Stuff that is a little over their skis about pods he's a good player. I don't I never expected all star status or whatever I wouldn't be happy with what pods is right now I'd be happy to extend him into reasonable rate but the there is a bad pod not bad but there is a pod's quote it's not just other people right that we're talking him up.

“You know it well I think the thing that really worked a lot of people but I think it got taken out of context was pod said I want to be as good as Steph Curry.”

But in reality the context was that he was giving stuff a compliment before before that he got into that answer. He was saying a lot of people say they want to be Steph Curry but they don't want to put the work in to become Steph Curry and then a reporter goes well do you want to be Steph Curry is like well of course I want to be Steph Curry but. You know in hindsight he should have just said ah there's only one of those guys I'm going to work as hard as I can to be the best player I can and then that thing kind of took kind of life of its own and there were a few other quotes that.

Got out of people skin but I'm with you as far as pod's goes he can be a solid player in the league and you have these other guys like Moses moody he's taken a nice step here in the last couple months to great value contract by the way, Moses. Absolutely the problem though is the hope was for the warriors that pods and moody and kominga and I the kominga conversation never seems to go away with this team but that one or all of them were going to take a step this year they were going to go from wherever they were the last couple seasons up here and it never happened and so now you have this veteran team.

With these nice rotation pieces but you have this gap between the steps and jimmies and everybody else and it's wider I think than people were expecting and we haven't even gotten into really the fact that drain on just has not played that well this season.

Yeah he you know Dramon did say before the deadline like I'm prepared to be traded potentially.

“And then I saw him I was on Fred Bambleets podcast I guess this week saying about how.”

You know some warriors friends seem to want him to be traded and you know well you guys suck before I got here and.

I like to pride he takes in having built this because he did hell I mean Steph built it more than anyone else but Dramon was a critical part of it and.

He's still you know without him they don't win all these titles without his defenses versatility I mean he he not single handedly but he was the most important ingredient and making them an elite defensive team is passing with Steph and on and on and on. I hope he gets to see it out there I am I am interested to see what happens with him this summer and I'm a little.

“I think and more than you just I think the curve thing and I agree with you that he and Steph are like this that stuff would prefer he'd be the coach to it's more to me about what what Steve wants to do and I guess we'll see and and just.”

Negotiations with Joe lake up or not always fun I mean Bob Myers is just like I'm out like I want to do that.

And I do think so you mentioned the play in and getting maybe drilled out of the play and that's really they're tanking scenario is get in the lottery by losing in the play and. And then let's take our chances in the lottery and maybe we get lucky and that's I mean maybe that's the quote smart thing for them to do we've not really ever seen a team get into the play in and not give it's full best shot at getting out of the play in. It might just be their full best shot is a good enough against Phoenix and and you know whoever else they draw the clippers whatever it is.

We'll see and then next year. I think there there's an expectation around the league that the lottery rules are going to change by the 2027 draft in the 2027 lottery in a way that makes it more favorable and more palatable for a team like golden state a team that's kind of in the middle. To just say let's keep trying let's just keep be competitive it's not worth it for us to tank because the rules are a little bit more weighted towards. Being competitive or whatever I do think there's going to be pretty significant change and I think some of those teams in those those spots are already factoring that into their planning.

I agree with you I think the running joke I would tell everyone to go to is I've traveled with the Warriors last couple weeks is there people on other teams that are going off.

It's all set up for the Warriors to roll out of the play and then up we got the third pick how did that happen we got stuff one more piece to.

Now at the last couple years the however long he plays so certainly that is a narrative that's going to grow more steam I feel like in the next few weeks here but.

“If you're the Warriors and exact to me it ties right back to what a dream on has said repeatedly and I think this is an important.”

Wrinkle to this conversation there's a standard that's been set within this team for years and they want to live up to it still and I think for them the way they're looking at it when I when I say they I mean stuff. It's a dream on and Steve Carr there's honor in playing this thing out as hard as you can and seeing how far you can take it in this moment that's why again I don't think they're winning another title I do think they're going to try to make one more move though because they know that with the pieces they have and they're waiting for Jimmy off the knee injury and we'll see how he looks whenever he does return.

Don't have enough right now so absolutely I believe that you're on as quiet somebody that we're not thinking right now. Somebody's going to appear here to or the least they're going to try to make them appear where you look at next season and you go alright well I don't think the Warriors are getting there but they're going to be competitive as hell and for the same reason nobody wants to see him in a playing now. We have kids back all of a sudden nobody is going to want to look at a motivated Warriors team that already feels like the world has written them off and see them in any kind of games that matter the question of courses one how you're going to get whoever that player is.

On the roster and two can they stay healthy is that the problem for the Warriors as we've seen this year is the answer that has been a large no Jimmy got hurt that steps been off and on hurt he's been out for a while now and they just don't have the younger pieces that can fill in the gaps that they need but in an ideal world for the Warriors if all these different dominoes line up and that's a whole lot of ifs. If they did you could understand why they feel like they still have the talent to compete against anybody on any given night.

But yeah, you have to start thinking about what shakes loose from playoff team to disappoint what shakes loose if there is a megatrade whether it's on us or someone else for third and fourth teams.

Is there a distress asset like Zion that becomes available like all this kind of stuff but then you have the Warriors like the salary math is hard for them like how do they get if they want to keep dream on what's the money that's getting you up to thirty forty fifty million dollars. You can do poor zingas and as in a sign and trade but like like either some apron limitations for that if they if they come up against them and be like I don't know if anyone's really dying to get poor zingas on like a big money like a big enough money contract to.

“Make a deal work combined with lots of other contracts and then you got to coming up all coming up in ten days are you ready for that golden state at Atlanta look out I mean the Hawks fans are like Dominique Wilkins is taunting the Warriors.”

That that is pretty unbelievable you know you've got two games against the the tanking wizard to might as well wear helmets on the floor because they're just played.

But really not to not to win it all and you got to make a dominating then boom he's out with an injury I mean that for all the hype that was around those first community games in Atlanta.

And if everybody's out there on the floor that night it'll be interesting but I cannot stress this to you enough no matter what side you're on in Warriors lid coming is going to be an all star or man I've had it what to miss guy he's not consistent enough this was a divorce that had to happen. Had to it had reached way past the point of it working and everybody's coming together and all let's make up for the better that best part of the family. No coming ahead had it the Warriors while they had always supported him behind the scenes when he didn't play in that game I think it was right after the first of the year again so KC and they didn't have anybody else on the floor in an hour before he's got.

The back soreness that was it as far as the front office and everybody else was concerned so to me has the chance out to prove whatever he's going to do in Atlanta or maybe beyond wherever he goes after that and the Warriors have to figure out can they make it with work with Porzingus can he get them another piece although I'm with you who's looking to add Porzingus and the issues that he's at right now, but it was over with Kaminga and the Warriors there.

“Was no way it was going to work anymore and I think everybody on all sides of that deserves blame because it had gotten to a point where it just wasn't workable for anyone involved.”

First of all nobody knows back soreness like general soreness who is in the Warriors locker room the Jimmy Butler general general soreness as tips about it second of all I think everyone laughs at the coming of fascination right like seldom has a flawed role player. And it's a very good project of such drooling attention and every moving every tweet is scrutinized and that's partly because it's the Warriors and they have become a glamour franchise that has a gazillion fans and everybody cares about them but it's part of what we said about moody and pyjmski too that the only one that looked to have like.

This guy could pop into like an almost all star was coming because of the athleticism and the burst and the physicality and all that stuff and yeah the fuel for the game was lacking by Warriors standards and all that we don't need to revisit everything I agree with you that nobody in this is blameless like literally nobody everyone has blame on them.

“But for the comming thing but that's why and we'll see like you said it's been three games in Atlanta all against bad teams basically.”

But I think that was the reason why there was so much comming a fascination because you with with the wiseman pick you with on trading that pick you you're unable to trade it for anything impactful and that becomes your like well is our last best shot at a star and it didn't happen and here we are man it's. The twilight is often not as glamorous as you hope it's going to be I would like to see them get clay back I let's go full nostalgia Clay Clay can still go on some years they're pretty fun obviously low I feel like that's at the force that that probably had to happen and it's going to stay divorced I and I think the storyline would be great and it would be fun but you want to talk about some bad blood I think on both sides it was better than everybody moved on.

All that I would tell you though is being back around the Warriors every day on a much broader note to me they are by far in a way still the most interesting team in the league and the comming a thing.

“Is another reminder of the power of Steph because it's been said a hundred different times and you put coming on any other team and it's like all right you know here's the sky you can score 25 and dominate and here's the sky.”

The night who has six and just disappears and is employing the type of winning basketball the top level teams need but as I watched that whole thing unfold and I see all the different storylines that play out for this team on a day to day basis I'm reminded always this season how important the Warriors are to this league because they generate interest every single day and the die hards will say. I think the best of all what the interest is and always on the floor okay fine but they're still interested on the floor especially when steps there and they have so much intrigue on a regular basis that it kind of makes your head spin especially in a year where they're literally 500.

I mean it's not a team that is going to dominate the way they used to but to me it's not even close this is the most interesting team in basketball and it's why there's still so much interest in what they do. Not to pile intrigue a top intrigue but they are one of the only plausible LeBron alternatives for for next season and it'll be TBD what they have to offer it could be the mid level it could be the mini middle level it could there could be all sorts of sign and trade possibilities potentially.

You know Bill has touted them as a potential LeBron destination I the way this lake or thing is going right now I find it hard to believe he's going to go back to the lake or is again I don't know it's all speculation. I think the captain's on his appetite for taking a huge pay cut and what they do in the playoffs the next we'll see they've got a lot of other things and then the worse we know they tried to trade for him we know that they have shown interest in the past. You know that he and Steph have incredible chemistry from team USA like we know all those things are true and that the LeBron side kind of mixed it before it got started when they went owner owner and they owner genie bus said check with race ball remodish over and wrote about all this.

“I wouldn't close the book on that and if I'm the worst it's like why not it depending on what the prices if we're not going to cripple our cap sheet and forever like and we don't have to trade any picks for him like I think that's interesting.”

There are always so many teams to at this point that they could take on LeBron and the star wattage that he carries at least to me there the Warriors have done it before they know what it's like to live under that microscope.

I think where LeBron is at this stage of his career I don't know how much of a difference he's going to make as far as taking.

The Warriors or any other team from where they are to some completely next level because I don't know how you could expect that after all the wear and tear and the minutes he's played but. I think we're going to be fascinating to watch because if you put LeBron and stuff even if they're extended MBA ages together we know what it can do we seem the glimpses and the Olympics and I also say and I think this is why it might get a little more run in the playoffs. The LeBron and Drainman's relationship as well as established LeBron and Steph's relationship is going to like a lot of peaks and valleys through the years but I remember talking to Steph earlier this season and he said hey we're going to do a lot of business together in the future it's something that we've talked about and I think that.

“The relationship that was a little icy especially as Steph grew in his own prominence and he kind of developed as the the one a face to LeBron for the league I don't know whether it was jealousy from LeBron but there was something.”

There especially because the words kept beating LeBron in the biggest games that remember the Halloween party at the season after the I don't want that all the two stones for 73 wins and three one series and I was like that was cold now it was pretty good but I say that because I think it has thought and I think that relationship specific to those two guys. Is in a better place now what the whether that means that LeBron plays out is final year or however long he's going to go with the Warriors will see but it would be really really intriguing and one more time it would be fantastic for the league.

With all the talk about taking and all the drama around on a regular season it's just not very good anymore it doesn't feel right people are just tuning in the casual fans into the playoffs and they're kind of not following what's going on.

Jimmy and Jimmy but I how you know like you said and I think this is crucial to any Warriors conversation we can sit here and dream up all these different possibilities. How do you make it work cap wise you know how much money is LeBron willing to leave on the table in this scenario to make this kind of thing work.

“Well I one of the reasons why it's plausible of I mean this is baked into the chemistry that you have is that stuff is the rare superstar super duper star who does not dominate the ball.”

The way Luka does and even Reeves does and we've seen that that's proof sort of an awkward fit for the half two of those guys and LeBron and the calves like James Hardham plus down to the Mitchell plus LeBron I think would have would be a little weird in that sense less even even Jimmy like part of the frustration Warriors fans have had off and on with Jimmy is like dude can you take the ball and do stuff when stuff is off the floor like we need you to actually chase 25 30 points it's cool that you cut and screen do all these warriors things can you do the thing where the ball goes in the basket.

That's one of the reasons why it would be intriguing all right Nick Fridell look you've got to I got to let you go because you got to prepare for the commingible you need a full 10 days to get your notes ready to get ready for the intensity.

“It's always great to see you and I would also not want to see you around my favorite team please do not ever cover the meds okay no don't ever become a basal reporter and cover the meds okay that's all I ask of you.”

I love you too and I thought before the commingible we've got a bulls reunion bulls warriors on Tuesday night so.

That should be really fun see and what's going on with that team yeah it's going to be great you're going to have a blast.

“Yeah all right Nick Fridell you're the man see you boy that is for having me. All right that's it for today's episode of the zack low show will be back Thursday.”

From LA where I will be for a couple days doing some Amazon stuff thanks to Nick Fridell thanks to John Hollinger thanks to Mike and Oscar on production and thanks as always to all of you for listening to and or watching the zack low show. And I want to over and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 and over and present in DC can tuck your way home and gambling problem call 1 in 100 gambler or 1 800 my reset call 1 888 789 777 777 or visit ccpg.org/chat and Connecticut or is it md gambling help.org and Maryland hope is here visit gambling help line m8.org or call 800 327 50 50 for 24 7 support and Massachusetts.

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