The Seven Teams Without a Playoff Series Win in the 2020s!

It's a lot to do.

Do you still have this little thing?

Do I look like all of a sudden? No, you're too old. All of a sudden? All of a sudden. It's just like a dream.

With a post-farmic chain. A lot of words. You're too old to do it. Okay, that's a dream. More comfort, craft and dynamic.

All of the steps. All of a sudden, that's an easy task. All of a sudden, stay out there. Come on up on this act low show. It's September.

Very little is going on. Most of it is clippers related.

“And that's why law Murray from the athletic is here.”

He covers the clippers. What's going on? What the clippers? Why can't they stay out of the news even for silly things? Like Bradley Beal having Chris Paul's number.

All of a sudden. Is anyone answering the phones with the clippers? Do the landlines still work? They have landlines. What's shook the condor up to?

We get it all of that briefly. And then the meat of it is we take the 17's. They're only seven that have not won a playoff series in the NBA in the 2020s. Arbiture, a deadline, sure. But it's fun.

And we draft them. And we do two drafts. Draft number one. Who's most likely to break that streak this year? Draft number two, even more fun.

Which one we most like to run is GM for the next five years? There are 17's. I'm going to tell you which they are. You should try to guess them.

“And that's all coming up a lot more in the special guest.”

Luke Eppelin is here. I'm not sure you've heard of Luke Eppelin. You should. He just wrote a great book. Moses and the doctor.

About the 1983 Philadelphia 76ers. But more broadly about Moses and alone. Julie is serving the ABA. They're journey to that title in 1983 for a team that is loaded up to try to win.

It's first title since 1983.

That's all coming up on this act. [MUSIC] Welcome to this act. Low show. Law Marie.

From the athletic is here. He covers the clippers between. She's been extremely busy. But he also covers the whole league. He knows every team's rotation inside and out.

Which is going to come in handy for a fun little draft gimmick. I have for today during the Dolgrums of September. Law. You're doing how are you dealing with the 100 degree heat both metaphorically and literally the heat on the clippers and the heat in Los Angeles. Man, I'm trying to limit my movements as much as possible.

I'm just trying to survive and subsist. You know that September supposed to be the quiet part of the year for us. Chill out as much as possible so that you can actually prepare to cover this leading for nine months. And between this year and last year, that's been a myth. Something that you can actually put in practice.

And yeah, we've had some crazy weather out here. You know what, man, I'm about as ready for pumpkin spices that, you know, the girls the coffee shop right now. So, you know, I don't need that fall when they're becoming real quick.

I've never, I've never dabbled in any pumpkin spice anything.

Coffee wise. Should I ask you to? I assume it's bad. Which is why I haven't, I haven't done. I've tried the pumpkin beer before, which was like, I don't understand why we have to do this.

Anyway, look, clippers. Clippers have dominated my last three podcasts. I'm going to take a little break from them. Obviously, I've done all the verdict. I've read the report five times.

I just want to ask you this.

“Have you talked to anyone in any kind of position of power with the clippers since the verdict came down?”

I've placed a few calls. Didn't think anyone would pick up. Nobody picked up. Not really even sure who's running the team right now. I assume it's Trent Redden, but it's not like I've confirmed that with anybody because no one will pick up a call.

Are they just like, no one's answering any calls or is it, is there any business going on? I mean, everything is kind of real silent right now. Even from a communication standpoint. Like, Wednesday was a loud day last week. And they released one statement immediately, and then the letter from one of the many David Kelly's in our lives now came afterwards.

And it's been nothing, even on social media, it's been nothing. And to your point, they promised litigation. That's the only option they have. There's the Board of Governors meeting next week. I wonder who's supposed to sit in for that.

Even that to the people who would normally be in that spot have been suspended. You know, you know who they should have to send. Chuck the Condor Chuck the Condor should have to come to the Board of Governors meeting. It is stupid fat shoes with a stupid beak and sitting the Board of Governors meeting. And give a press conference afterwards where you just answers no questions because that's the most of that.

They might as well just have a mascot no commenting because no one's going to comment anyway.

Just just so you know that. No, Chuck. Chuck.

“You started writing about mascots and that's when they're like, you know what?”

Don't blame me for Chuck the Condor. Okay, you can blame me for a lot of things but not for Chuck the Condor. Okay, but the one thing that they did make news today was Bradley Peel's taking Chris Paul's number. It's like of all the days to do this. First Chris Paul goes on a podcast.

I can't remember which one's saying he's never been more disrespected and just career the one.

The clippers waived him in the middle of the night. Bam one night last last year in Miami, I think. And now Bradley Peel. Bradley does a great play or take his number. Whatever.

I mean, I don't know. Can they just like retire Blake Griffin's number out of nowhere for just some dose of good will. You know, I just say this because I don't really make this point publicly. I've made a proud to be plenty of times because a lot of people have asked me about. This scene that I cover.

This is most a historical franchise in league certainly and I don't.

“You have to involve some other sports leagues.”

I think they'd be up right up there too. When I say a historical. Obviously it's a bad history. Specifically in the 80s when this franchise moved to Los Angeles. But under the current ownership and lead of the president of business president specifically.

I mean, they have not just this isn't an intentional choice to not really honor any part of their franchises past. But the way that they have handled things with the recent and successful pillars of their past. I mean, you don't get quiet here without loves. See that truly we that they have. They they have shown that they're not very interested in it.

They have not even right now. They are not showing that they are interested in even addressing their fans in any way possible. You know, everything has been. Defensive about what has come out and. I mean, I don't even put this on Brad because Brad gave up his number last year.

He was here before Chris and they have a great relationship. And, you know, Brad was zero. So Chris could have his number. This isn't about Brad. This is about who makes these decisions to say we're keeping this number out of circulation.

Which they did when Chris wasn't here for seven years.

And now the first all season Chris is done playing.

They give. They give this number. So Brad's taking the heat, but let's apply the heat where it absolutely should be.

“And that's what a clippers team that has been increasingly toned out for over the last couple of years.”

I was just going out to see what number Chuck the condor wears. If there's anything embarrassing about it, he wears two one three. There you go. So there you go. Yeah, look, I mean, I don't want to talk about the clippers anymore.

Here's the here's the gimmick for. By the way, by the time this comes out, who knows maybe bombers who delete. I will be at board of governors next week eagerly awaiting all the fallout all the comments. I've talked to a bunch of owners about this. They are all kind of like, wow, okay, the report said a lot of stuff that, you know,

really solidified everything and like he's getting what he deserves. But anyway, okay, on to the today's gimmick. In thinking of like fun things to do in September, I just started kind of tooling around and I came up with this. Seven teams out of 30 have not won a playoff series in the NBA in the 2020s.

So in just the last six seasons, seven seasons, I guess. 23 of the 30 NBA franchises have won at least one playoff series. There's a couple that are just squeak it in in 2020. The rockets and the raptors that's the last time they won are arbitrary cutoff dates and round numbers. Stupid or human caveman brains, stupid and we like round numbers.

Yeah, but we got to do something. Seven teams have not won a playoff series in the 2020s. Here they are in no particular order. The Charlotte Hornets 2002, I think, is their last playoff series win. That's a long time.

Well, you were like, you were like barely born in 2002.

The Washington Wizards, the Sacramento Kings who have the second longest drought,

2004, the Chicago Bulls, the New Orleans Pelicans, the Portland Trail Blazers, in the Orlando Magic. Those are the seven teams that have not won a single playoff series in 2020. We're going to draft them, rank draft them in two ways. First, we're going to pick, and I'm going to give you the, you can choose if you want the first pick or not.

Who is most likely to break that streak this coming season? And then more fun, which team of these seven, again, redrap, would we most like to run for the next five years? And run, I guess, is GM. So we've got to work for Tom Dundin if we want to run the Blazers.

Okay, you can have the first pick if you want.

Let's start again Orlando, Charlotte, Washington, Portland, Pelicans, Bulls,

“Kings, who has the, we're going to start? Who has the best chance to break their no series win streak this year?”

Do you want to draft first in this round or the long-term round? Oh, give me the first pick in this round. Okay. Yeah, first pick, I'm going to go with the team that damn near knocked off of one seed. And that's the Orlando Magic. They are.

They, they have the strength of continuity of the strength of being a good team that's been in the mix.

We are waiting for a frontspotner in Palabin, Caron Jalen Sugs to play a respectable amount of games together in the same season.

They have a foundation of defense. They have the things that I think they are well suited for playoff basketball. They've lost what two games seven is over the last three years.

“I think it makes sense for them to, we'll see how Sean Sweeney approaches that roster.”

But I think they have as good a chance of the 17's to not just make the playoffs, but to get to the semi finals at least. Yeah, they were number one with the bullet on my list. It's an easy call. I'm a little worried about their depth. And particularly since their starters all had histories of missing games, other than Desmond Bain, who's kind of an ironman for them. But we'll see maybe De Silva makes a little bit of a leap. Maybe the Jamal can thing at the end of last year when he had the dunk of the year.

It's like semi real. We'll see. So I'm a little worried about their depth, but I think their top end talent, their defense is just so good. Actually kind of getting slept on as a candidate for like the fifth or sixth seed in the east. It's going to require some things to go wrong on the true juggernauts in the conference. But I think a couple of those juggernauts, Boston and Philly in particular, maybe even the calves, have a little bit of volatility and some downside volatility to them.

So I think Orlando's just like rock solid. And if they get in, they're going to have a chance. So they were my, they were my number one pick two. This is also an easy one for me.

“Well, not that easy, but here's what you have to think about.”

Like the east is harder to get into the playoffs, even into the play and then the west. But we're talking about franchises that are, you know, on the bottom or the upswing. They're going to be seven and eight if they get in most likely, which means in the west, you're facing San Antonio or Oklahoma City. And so as much as you might want to pick a Western conference team, hi, I don't really think you can.

I will pick the Charlotte Hornets with the second pick in the draft.

They have a chance to be a pretty dynamic offensive team with Nau's read at the fore. They're super deep. Like they're, they're going to have guys who played last year both for Charlotte and other teams who are just not even in their rotation. This year like Cyan James might have to fight for a rotation spot. Great Williams may have to fight for a rotation spot, although I think base on his play last year, he should get one. T John Salon, probably like the number six pick whose team option going forward is kind of a big deal for them.

Like an interesting decision. I don't know if it's a no-brainer. He may not be in the rotation. They have Royce so Neil Grayson Allen that they added in the Miles Bridges trade. Kobe White for Lamello probably a little bit of a step back offensively, but I don't know how much of a step back. It's really going to be when you add the added spacing of Nau's read. They're kind of penciled in as 11 in the East. I think that's probably appropriate.

Defensively it's going to be a bit of a challenge for them. But I think on some nights they're going to pour in like 130 points. They're going to be like, wow, the Hornets just like shot 53 or 63's and made 24 of them. So just pure upside if they get in someone on the tabs or the pistons is injured like who knows. So they were my number two pick. I think that's an interesting number two pick because I feel like they're going to miss Lamello a lot this season coming up.

I just I want to see how they play basketball pretty much like because when you have Lamello you have a guy who naturally draws. You know, double teams absorbs that and and then you have I feel like that may be game pretty easy for the rest of those guys. Especially January one they were they weren't just beating teams that they were demolishing them and it was good teams that they were beating. I mean, they put it on some of the best teams in the league westward east and I want to see how Charles the reestablish is how he's going to facilitate.

Facility at creating advantages. I can see if they figure it out with the group of guys they have I think they're going to be relevant in the east but I can see the floor.

So like I said, I think 11th is appropriate for them.

“I am like a Lamello top one percent like media supporter so to speak I guess I think he's very good I'd play us will challenge him if he ever gets there physically defensively all that stuff regular season.”

When he's healthy another big question no question he was like he was their best player last year. He was their offensive full groom and I think part of part of their bet is con and Brandon Miller have can both level up a little bit Kobe white can be 80% of the mellow will see if that's true or not I like the Steinbach kid they drafted by the way okay make. You get the third pick.

“Yeah, so Charlie would have been about 30.”

So I'm going to have Portland up here Portland had a very weird year last year which is appropriate because it's Portland anyone who's been in Portland can understand that.

They got better as the year went on and they have a core there where I feel like over the last quarter of the year they are the best defensive in the league. Dom and clinging is a real presence there Drew holiday when he played they were really good when he didn't play they look like a team that was going to be like most of the players teams that we saw in the 2020s they have way too many guards who in one aspect or another need to need the ball.

“I really want to see how my minority figures add out but there's something to work with there even when she didn't sharp being out until February there's there's something to work with there.”

I don't think again you already have one injured guard we don't expect jaw Drew Dame Lillard those guys have all been in your from scoot missed a bunch of last year but they're going to have a bunch of guards who neither of them need to do more than necessary because your best own ball player is then you have the you know like. we have to treat Dame Lillard like a Achilles tendon patient not like the franchise legend who was doing things the last time Portland went up series that's why we're in this conversation now so if they can retain the kind of defense that they played last year if they can just organize or offense I think the biggest issue with their offense last year is it was the early disorganized.

Maybe that's the thing that happens when your head coach gets arrested and banished one game and could be also no one can shoot that's but they are a bad shooting team from all over the floor maybe that gets better this year with Dame.

Back in with some of the young guys developing and without chain and sharps long to look like quality wise they would be that if the if the league were a conference list play off structure.

They would be the number two pick in this draft I had them actually fourth just because of the Oklahoma City say into a new even if things break right in their six they're going to face Denver or somebody like that now you put them against a team like Houston who's got some. I'm not sure if they're going to get a little bit more of the quality to work in it as well that could be different but I like this team defensively they're going to be really hard to play despite well I don't know if that's true anymore with the guards that they're going to start but there's something here I had them fourth though which means I get to pick now with the fourth pick the team I had third I can't believe I have them third.

The Washington wizards now that I will take in this draft and look it's the east it's the east and the if you draw the right team in the one eight to seven matchup and you have Anthony Davis healthy if he saw on the team and you have triung healthy if he saw on the team and you get some development from your young guys like who the hell knows I don't know I don't think the wizards are going to be very good. I'm not sure how long Anthony Davis is going to be on the team I know the defensive limitations of triung I have absolutely no earthly idea why they signed him to a max contract with the freaking player option at the end of it or a borderline max contract whatever it was.

But there's there's like some quotient of actual NBA talent here super excited for a defense will Riley year two trade Johnson year two Kishan George year three I just look if everything went right and they draw on a opponent who's got a guy and a half injured who the hell knows so there might pick and I'm sticking with it and I think we've hit the right top four I don't know where did you have Washington. Yeah, I have Washington and that for it's forced by as well, I mean fit is a complete theory and we just you know but.

Improvement is one thing like we're not talking about hey will you for it they'll be better they're trying to win games they have better ends. They I don't think they won 20 games in the last three years like they're going to clear those very low bars like.

Being at this isn't Cooper flag you know Cooper flag had a come in there and Jason kid was like hey I made yana support guard we're just going to do that because we have a complete. There's the any other place or her absence like AJ doesn't have to do that and then defensively they aren't their roster is trying this year because besides.

They have Alex are me I forgot to mention Alex are who have always been pretty pretty probably higher on.

Consensus Koolabali is solid defensively I think you probably comes off the bench this year but to your point on defense everything you showed on the ball in summer league was like whoa.

“Now he's not going to be on the ball as much because try young is going to be on the ball a lot because that's what trade does.”

Can he can he do the off boss is going to make enough jump shots is you can do do the off but now we can do some screening and we'll see how that fits with AD and so are who are also screeners.

It's kind of like we talked about Portland if any doesn't have the ball.

How much is he diminishes a player and if he does have the ball what is John Moran doing off the ball can he still be so these are all the equal these these are why these these questions are why these teams are in this conversation but I think we've hit the right top top what are we for in. Yeah, we're for and so you get to pick fifth now we're now we're down to the pelicans the bulls and the kings and again the question is most likely to snap their streak of not winning a playoff series this season I think number five is pretty clear and it's depressing the bottom three but who you got to fifth.

“I got the pelicans at five got to be the pelicans I got the pelicans at five it's another team that didn't really do much with their roster at all.”

We're waiting on the official.

That's obviously just a formality at this point but I mean that team they expected to be better last year they weren't we'll see what you're almost as he has to do you're almost in here it's a lot of the same issues in New Orleans right down to a. No more one overall pick out a Duke at power forward you know trying to figure and offense around that ball heavy player and go from there so. We are not saying to you folks that these teams will want to make the playoffs or to win a place here we're just ranking a set of teams and New Orleans is a team I feel better about with that specific endeavor than the other two teams we have to choose from.

New Orleans just sheer talent has to be the pick here it's actually it's I would probably even place them higher again there's just a conference saying where we're talking about winning a playoff series they're just not going to beat the best teams in the west. But you know you put to Jonathan Murray who looked pretty good in his brief appearances last year train Murphy herb Jones Zion you've got something there those players that barely played together that's something to starting center thing you would assume they would like to start their queen he and Jeremiah fears are the two most important young players on the team like both of them a lot.

Queen and Zion together looked pretty unplayable defensively last year and force Zion to kind of figure out and you throw Murray in and this is doubly so like how do I exist without the ball as much as without having the ball as much as I used to have it and you know there was like more of Zion and the dunkers spot more if I'm just trying to figure it out maybe that's healthy maybe it's not. But even coming off the bench you know you've got fears, mather and maybe queen maybe he needs me see today who started a bunch of last year.

So the bay was just bullying dudes one on one all year making mid range jumpers. There's just a there's just enough talent here where they should out point the bulls and the kings and we don't need to spend a lot of time on the last two teams.

“I think in all the excite I will take the bulls six by the way over the kings and neither of these teams has any shot in hell of winning a playoff series so who cares I just think I will keep it brief.”

I think in all the excitement of over Caleb Wilson just if I can't wait Caleb Wilson's awesome. Norman Powell's here on the two-year deal Bouselis made a big leap last year kind of fringy most improved player conversation guy could be in that conversation again Nick Claxton is on the team for some reason. Giddy is just kind of what he is which is a 188 and eight but how much is he actually helping you win at the highest level the bench is going to be pretty inexperienced I would say if they play the guys that I hope they would play.

I think they're going to be pretty bad this year and that's completely fine I just think there's no world in which I can take the kings anywhere other than last year so you get the honor of taking the kings last and we will revisit them later but anything you want to say about these these two teams.

I feel like they're going to fire so.

And in midseason I'm glad you brought that up because part of this discussion should have been and I should have mentioned it with Charlotte in particular early is. They do the hornets if like they're way better than expected or even a little better than expected like oh we could be seventh or eighth in these.

They have everything they need to go out and get a big time player if any big time player that fits them become of it becomes available more so than any of these teams.

“I think that's what Linda's right there with them to but not quite as much we'll talk about all that stuff in the second draft but yet like the fire sale so who do you see is the fire sale guys in Chicago.”

And Norman Powell first ball. Okay, yeah it does feel like norm is going to get buckets I think he's done a great job in the first half of season is the last two years and some team is going to be interested in him. But who's the bulls to to see what they can get for him then I think that his values you that team decreases significantly after the trade that line so I don't you know not saying he's definitely going to get traded I can just see him being involved in team saying hey can we get Norman Powell around January February.

And then you mentioned trade Jones like trade Jones is a real good best.

“He's solid like he's just not exciting because he don't jump high and he doesn't really like shooting trees like at all you know but this is a dude who as a as a non explosive point guard makes 55% of his field goals and you know that”

You know that you know that assistant turnover ratio is in his genes we saw Tias for years not turn the ball over and facilitate good offense like what does that look like for a team you know and If something takes on trade trade has got a team option for for 2027 as well so again 8 million bucks like really good money for like a backup a top top level backup one card who can fill in as a starter anytime. A lot of different dudes he played next to Gady last year as a starter to non shooting guys but trade trade makes it work so what does that look like come February we'll have to see the kings I think I'm just giving the kings just a little bit I mean credit that they don't really deserve but I'm just intrigued by Sacramento from the standpoint of they had a bunch of dudes who just didn't play well.

“Last year the Monta space they had the year off Zach basically had the year off.”

Deandre hunter gets there gets scratching the eye he's done after two games. Keegan they said the year off those are four starters. So that's fair you know what the seven people in the draft. Again we're not saying things will be good in the playoffs or competitive in the playoffs if they find a way in there but I do want to see. What that team looks like is Jack I don't know about you I did not see a 60 loss Kings team this time last year that I think they'd be a playoff team no but they had been in the mid 40s not mid 40s they had been around the 40 win range the previous year.

Everything that could have went wrong last year with wrong are they a 60 loss team or are they closer to a 50 loss team are I'm intrigued to see. What it looks like with a maybe a more cohesive roster it's a great that's a great slogan for the 2026 2027 Sacramento Kings maybe we're just a 50 loss team come out and see the kings at the golden one center like the bulls by the way the kings are a bad team that controls their own draft. In a new lottery world where it be who's them to maybe try not to be one of the three worst teams in the NBA and go into the relegations on where you get one less one fewer ping pong ball so they're incentivize as are the bulls to try to win on the flip side they have a guy who has all but put a trade me t-shirt on in demand to sub on us who fired his agent hired a new agent at CAA and you know I think it's an open secret that would like to not be on the kings.

You've got to kind of played through him on offense and and mitigate him on defense he's a hell of a player he's an all star he's a florizer both for the kings and we will get into this in part two for maybe a team that starts off slower than expected. Get scared off by the new lot of rules and he's like hey this guy's got only got one more year left on his contract yay might we might have to pay him his next deal it might be a little too much but he's going to help us win 38 games or 35 games and now that's a bigger deal does we don't want to actively suck but you're right you know.

You put in Levine I don't know how much he wants to be there. I don't know how much if any trade value he has. Boy did they need Keegan Murray to have a bounce back year. I like me Clifford as a bench guy I like Maxine Reno as a bench guy and I am proud to say you brought him up first I am proud to say the Zach low show leads. This is an official statistic leads all MBA podcasts that are not kings podcast in mentioning Dylan card wells name I am like a Dylan card well super fan I'd like to be friends with Dylan card well I feel like if you followed me around everything good that I did even something simple is like picking my daughter up from school driving the car pool without any sort of beeping or incident.

He'd be pumping me up and shearing for me and raising the roof and I'd be like I like having Dylan card well around he gets rebounds and he makes everyone happy so thank you for mentioning him all right that's our draft so in order of breaking the play off streak this year to review Orlando Charlotte you took Portland three Washington New Orleans Chicago Sacramento let's take a quick break and we'll do the more interesting discussion of like which of these teams we want to run for the next five years.

This episode is brought to you by state farm every player brings something different to the field some at speed some at power some have their own podcasts true that being said no two players are exactly alike and the same is true off the field.

“That's why state farm takes time to get to know you so you can help personalize coverage for your life and budget like a good neighbor state farm is there.”

All right, new draft we're taking the same 17's the wind listen the playoff's teams in the 2020's and now instead of just focusing on this year.

We're zooming out next five years which of these teams from best to worst most want to run to least want to run. Would you want to be the GM of I get the first pick in this draft and to me this is a pretty easy pick and it's the Charlotte Hornets I have Brandon Miller I have con cannipple I have a whole ton of extra draft picks. So we're starting with the maves top two protected pick this year. I have a heat lottery protected pick this year that becomes unprotected. If it doesn't convey this year and I have these 233 picks unprotected from Phoenix via the Miles Bridges trade and from I believe Minnesota via the little mobile trade.

So rich with assets I'm pretty lean cap wise like I could get room if I need to get room particularly.

In like the summer of 2028 before con cannipple's new deal comes back I got to figure out Brandon Miller I can get a decent amount of room that year I can always maneuver.

“So to get more room if I want to not bring back T john salon if I want to not resign we should be about to who I think they should resign. If for some reason I don't want C on James down the line.”

I can cut finish Smith and all that stuff like I got just a ton of flexibility. I've got a pretty good team that's pretty exciting right now the Lamello trade you and I kind of both agree where we like Lamello more than most it's going to be a step back but like long term. I didn't think that that hard about who I would pick first in this draft I really would like to run the Charlotte or it's there to good spot. I would have picked Charlotte number one as well I mean the Lamello ball tree it hit me hit me in the hit me right in the star in the man just because I really wanted to see that team take a step but you know what they did sermon that they were selling high.

“They got a great year at a Lamello because they've managed him right you said hey health is a thing for him we'll see how he handles his calorie if he makes playoffs which he better that Minnesota team better make playoffs next year.”

But I mean they sold high maybe it's a short you know set back this year but they are setting themselves up to be the team that they want to be for years to come.

And even now they look they look deep I'm worried about the ceiling of that team in the short term long term I mean they they have a lot of flexibility and to pick a team number two I find is really difficult here.

I actually think six is pretty clear to but to let's just be generous a two to six you could really order any way you want depending on what kind of GM situation you want to walk into what kind of moves you'd like to make right off the bat.

“You're interested in I I switched teams around multiple times I'm very interested to see how we do this I had a number two pick I like the lot will let's see if it's the same team.”

Yeah, and I don't feel great about this but I'm actually going with Washington here.

Oh, I did not have them number two but I had them I had well I won't spoil where I had them. I don't spoil it on I think the reason it's difficult is obvious like the the page right the might pay anything to this and if even if they don't to give up.

They even draft capital to get him and the fit is like okay what does it look like so that's not that's not as great but.

“I think that's what we're looking for a team in a pretty good market they just got the number one pick they've had draft picks that they've been developing for the past few years so they have a core of.”

I think that's what we're looking for and we're looking for the players ready to go that they have decisions to make on and I don't yeah I want to I want to see how. A blue chip die a difference making guy like we talked about this draft for a long time we saw that teams tent aggressively in a way that made the NBA changed their role for this draft and the Washington wizard's got the number one guy in that draft. I think that even what trades contract the lack of success in recent years what you gave up to get 80 what you might get to keep him what happens if you don't keep him I think those are massive questions but their number two because I like their number one guy more than their the other guys here.

“It's interesting I had the wizards three which means I had them above teams that are like objectively way better than them and in the case of Portland I don't want to spoil it.”

I think it's interesting that it's interesting that they really have better draft equity coming from other teams than the wizard the wizards have some stuff they have an extra pick in 28 a couple of swaps here and there that could be good they could be not good we'll see. In a great draft has a chance to be a franchise player we'll see like Orlando has a couple of really elite borderline all NBA if everything's going right and they're healthy guys in Palo bone caro and Franz Wagner maybe age of bandsa never even gets his good as Palo being caro is right now and Palo being caro is still young I just would bet on the upside and I've got like I'm even factoring in.

Like I'm even holding the following things against the wizards a they may not have any cap room at all until December of twenty twenty nine because the triums giant contract and all the other deals they have to negotiate or renegotiate.

In God forbid they pay entity Davis and dip further into their cap room I even just like I'm in trying to be pessimistic and realistic in my assessment of them like let's assume.

Deal that's like you know fair for him around the mid level. Maybe they don't maybe he's not part of their core. Let's assume Bob Carrington who I don't really love and hasn't quite figured out his role in the NBA although shot the three well pretty well last year very well. Let's assume he doesn't make it. Let's assume. One of will Riley and Tray Johnson both of whom I really like end up kind of being empty calories you know gunners that don't quite fit. I actually don't think that's true. I like that both of them on my team. I like to bandsa I like star I like George I like the extra picks.

And I just think the bandsa is is that enticing. I actually had the wizards third as I said which means I had a team ahead of them which I will now take with a third pick for the exact same reason and it's the Chicago bulls. I have Caleb Wilson on my team. Noah Sengay will see what he becomes. Dale and Swain will see what he becomes but I have Caleb Wilson and I have Mata Spusellis and I have all the cap flexibility I can need going forward now again kind of feather and Washington's cap is that cap room is not like the the years of cap room getting you like superstar free agents and being used in that way kind of over and so Washington not having cap flexibility not a big deal.

They've got decisions to make like I don't I don't think Rob Dillingham is really slated to be part of this core long term will see could prove me wrong I think his his team option is sort of like another interesting.

Up for grabs decision they've got some they've got a potential you know long term hold at center I like jail and Smith I might be interested in extending him if I were the bulls but I'm not sure he's.

I'm starting starting center on a good team. Clarkson's alright is a placeholder, but just to me look it's Kayla Wilson, Mattis Pouselis at the three in the four figure out the rest and the rest.

“By the way, giddy is still very young if you get he's a good player and if he's if you want to throw him part of this core to that's fine.”

But figure out the rest I've got all my picks I got cap flexibility and I'm and at some at some level law I would just like to save the Chicago bulls they're a cool brand they mean something to me as an old 49 year old old basketball fan. The the Allen Parsons project team song from North Carolina like that'll still get to be pumped up I would just like to be around that so I'm taking the bulls and that's it so we're three and what do you think was I too high on the bulls. Well the bulls for your the reasons you outlined were seeing that I was like this will make it difficult with the Washington decision the reason why I basically when with Washington or Chicago besides AJ the bulls are so owned by someone who just doesn't take full advantage of the fact that they're in Chicago.

Literally the biggest market in the lead outside of New York in Los Angeles and now now.

All right, but so by alternative like that's a challenge, but my alternatives are well if you so so I had them over watching it and you get totally honest with your owner my alternatives for for the rest of the draft are Tom Dundin. To the boss family. Gayle Benson and or whatever it becomes of the pelicans and the that market which is struggle to really sort of develop a big following and the background of the way so I feel good I feel good taking the bulls in the third in the third spot they'll for even despite the Ryan store of concerns.

“Right, so we go on to number four then yeah you got the real hard pick now number four I am very curious to see what you did here and whose fans are going to be insulted by this pick.”

Yeah, I'm I'm just going with the Orlando magic.

I think they should be they should they should feel like they should be hired. So when you'd fit the Atlanta magic here behind some of the teams that we've had. We are obviously saying that we don't love their future situation, but that's up to the players and it's up to what happens this season. I think. You know the question have in Orlando is are they stuck or are they in a good spot.

“They I think it's a little I think it's it might be a little bit of both which is why they say but go ahead that's why they're here like France has a long term contract power has a long term contract with a player option.”

Desmond has a in I think the way you have to talk about the NBA these days he has a long term contract and you gave up pretty much your last assets to get him. Desmond's very good player who absolutely fits not just a need, but you know just in general good player. You know I like I like to fight the risk I like them kind of going for it on that trade last year. I like it a little less a year later, but that's that's life. Yeah, like that's they are 18 that is suppose to do their best work while these while these players are on the contracts that they have now.

That's even window Carter as a team option in 2028. You know like I'm interested see what's going to happen when Anthony black the decision that is going to be made there does he get paid. Do they play the restrictive for agency game with him. You know I can I can already for either. They don't have a lot of ways to improve what they have right now unless they break the team up they change the coach.

So they made it clear that this is going to be on these players. And it's not it's going to be on the players now more than the coach like you have like bullets you can you buttons you can push right you can push the change the coach button.

Then someone among those core players has to be removed somehow especially since you trade it so much to get doesn't.

“I'm I'm intrigued see how it works I don't need to be overly optimistic about it.”

You picked them forth. I actually will insult the magic fans even more I picked them fifth and I'll tell you who I picked ahead of them in a second and again it's no insult we all just drafted them number one in the who's most likely. In the who's most likely to win a playoff series this year it would seem in Congress to now knock them down to four in your case five in mind for the next five years rankings especially since they're two best players are 25 and 24 years old respectively.

“No one in the rotation is over 28 years old unless Javan Carter really cracks the rotation or which of which does or somebody like that.”

It would seem in Congress right and if they are not like totally out of picks because of the band trade they can treat their pick obligation stop in 2030 they have their own picks and like the intervening years although some of them are swapped so they're going to be the worst of whatever it's not great it's not great but starting in 2032 I can trade picks I can trade that pick moving forward.

I just like we both picked them to win a playoff series it's hard for me to see this core.

Given what we've seen of them both health wise and chemistry wise winning two or three playoff series and that's why I have them fifth and I could be dead wrong about that because defensively they're going to be rock solid they're going to be well coach I just don't know. I guess I would have to see the Wagner band Carol pairing amount to a little bit more than it has it is to to for them to amplify each other a little more than they have.

“And I understand that if you look at their numbers with Jalen Sugs is he the skeleton key that unlocks the whole group the whole lineup and maybe he is he just doesn't he doesn't play that much and so.”

I the the out they have though is if they conclude it doesn't look they're going to have to make a trade at some point they can't pay black.

But they're going to have to make a trade at some point they're going to have to make a trade at some point they're going to have to make a trade at some point they're going to have to make a trade at some point they can't pay black. Like the new lottery rules teams are going to look at those players like they're young their floor razors they might be flawed but they can really help us and then I get a team that may still be a decent team to a good team with my picks replenished but you know that's a hard road to host so I had them fifth and I had the Portland Trailblazers fourth.

I flipped flopped Portland in Orlando a bunch of times and what ultimately really swayed me is for three straight years 28 29 and 30 the blazers essentially have the rights if the thing if it breaks that way to Milwaukee's pick they're shorting the box three straight years and right now that looks like a really good place to be. They've also got some other you know swaps and things like that I don't know what's going to become a scoot I don't know if this Moran thing is going to work I'm kind of pessimistic.

I'm really intrigued by clinging I love Camara I love obvious still only 25 years old Samus Bancaro don't love the market don't love what I you know I don't really care that I have cap room in the summer of 28 when obvious deal expires but it's it's such a low deal that is cap hold is really low and then clinging comes in on top of that but I just like like three bites at the box apple. I I feel like it like maybe I get my version of what we're talking about with Debansa and Caleb Wilson and I kind of would just again I'm happily run both these teams with the magic I get I get I get to enjoy my team now because we're going to be a good team I get to enjoy winning I get to walk around town bill yeah the magic or 50 and 32 we're gone in for the 60 whatever it is that's cool.

I just I I also like the blazers jerseys and their stuff like that that'd be fun to wear around I just like I like this sort of like lottery ball upside I get with with some with some good talent already in the door so I took Portland to Portland it for. I I can't I can't get there or Portland um like that ownership situation upsets me greatly it's it's not look it's upsetting it's you know he should really be upset is Mike Annore who's like already coaching for his job in the season at training camp as he would start he did that thing that that contract isn't embarrassment and the blazers should be embarrassed and they probably aren't but some people there are and and and that's the thing that we're talking about here over the long term.

I don't know how much will that impact that team and the people who's job it is to be the stewards of the organization and that means Joe Crone and had to make statements because his two way contract players didn't travel in the playoffs that is a unnecessary distraction.

Imagine checking into a hotel in some random Western conference city you get there earlier flight lands early no traffic.

The hotel is noon let's see if my room's ready you know I might have to hang out in the lobby for a bit and you just see a bunch of tall dudes hanging out in the lobby waiting for a bus that's not going to leave for four hours to go to the game or like. What what's going on here is an NBA team sitting in the lobby instead of getting late checkout so you can be in the room.

“It's like when the Denver Broncos were on Homer Simpson's front yard when he got gifted the Denver Broncos by Hank Scorpio like what is this team doing here that's what we're dealing with you could be a random person all the trailblazers are.”

They just kill in time. Maybe we got the Simpsons and mascot's the most unbrand. Zach pod. And doing card well.

Dylan car well to Mike come up again who knows.

So you're just you're like is it is it what else besides the owner which I agree is shameful and it's going to constrain me and it's going to be super annoying and he's going to yell at me a lot about whatever. What about the talent.

“Yeah, what's your take on the sort of state of the team who's going to be here long term what questions do you have et cetera.”

They have a lot to figure out and I mean the dude who's got the biggest long term number on that team is shade and sharp. Sharks injured I don't think he's happy and I don't think he's in a position to really do a whole lot. By even when he comes back like what does that team look like you got Denny I mean that renegotiation is going to be fascinating. You have just a lot to sort out. Scoot is a guy you drafted high and again I don't think he's getting extended he's I don't think he's happy.

But you have a lot of those things going on the culture of your team is at stake in a lot of ways in this next year. You can be a free agent in twenty twenty seven. I forgot that before I started looking at their contracts again that he has a plan option for twenty seven twenty eight and he's thirty six years old man he has a no trade clause because. Yeah man like I there's just there's there's a lot of variables and there's not a lot of things I make you feel good that's that's that's my thing and the variables are in the court as well.

I mentioned that they play really good basketball especially in the last quarter the season they earn their play all spot they very much earned it they knock the clippers into a spot they took over the sun spot they even found a way to win a playoff game. In in in in saying in Tony like how much can you think they're fell on his head but sure. Yeah I mean they also at double digit leads and game three and four before you know going on the gentleman's web so. How much does that carry over how much. How do you assess these roles and again I don't know if the coach is going to be there long term and you might be the coach well you might be the coach of the blazers next year.

Are you ready? I don't want to work with who Jenner I will say that who Jenner's awesome yet to get to great. But you know that they lost they lost my guy Mike Smith's you know we work with Mike Smith's for good while you know.

“That's what you're talking about we're talking about long term and everything that has to do with what makes you feel good about a team in terms of you know the stability parts of things.”

I need to see any reason to think that anything blazers related will be stable head coach front office star player and the supporting players the market itself. I don't feel great about it and yet we found two teams at least we did to break the love them. So so my part of my blazers optimism like I get all the questions about the roster we've done it to death the job fit and all that. I'm not even I'm not even factoring John Moran in to my long term prognosis about the blazers great if it works out. I'm not I can't sit here and expect it to.

I'm not even like I'm not even factoring school in I have hope for school I think school's pretty good.

He's just been so snake bitten by injuries and like he just can't nail down the starting spot and then there's a million guards or something there.

But I do think we have enough information even as as a school optimist. I don't think there's something there is ever going to be commensurate with where you took him in the draft and at number three.

I'm a believer in clinging I think clinging is legit good and the increased range and sort of dexterity on offensive showed last year was super intriguing.

Commir is good obviously obviously is good and then I just like to pick I'll tell you this though like when you start projecting things long term. Young Hansen's 7.5 million dollar team option and 2829 is going to be an interesting little piece of business if you doesn't show some development in the intervening period but anyway so we have two teams left. You get the 6th trick and you get to pick between the pelicans and the kings as the team you would most like to run for the next five years. Is this tough one yeah I know you don't think it is but New Orleans is the team I'm going to go with and so we have the same we might as a strapped in both right now because I had New Orleans six Sacramento seven and I didn't really think that hard about it.

So yeah yeah like long term and I'm not going to get into the team business as part of things as above my.

Yeah that's I'm out of my depth there where to be honest with you I'm just want to look at the basketball team obviously what happened in the drafts in 2025 was not encouraging. And in terms of your trust in the Joe do Mars Troy weaver front office, but you know what man like.

“I think you got two people there who are going to let their coach work.”

I think they know that they are probably at the end of the life stage as far as I am willing since 10 year there it's either going to work really well this year or it's you know probably but it's it's wild to think that he's going to be in his eighth season there and.

He's got one year left on his deal after this one I think that it's you know this is I'm intrigued to see what happens this year and then long term.

I don't think they have a lot of messy contracts I think that that kind of helps. I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm a dad they do have that they have Jordan pool and Jordan is not in my rotation right now but the good thing with Jordan is that he's an expiring so.

“I can see that going a number different ways the point being it doesn't really impact you long term I think there are avenues to this team to clean things up long term they need to maybe not be so.”

I think that's what they're with their you know pick situations but I think they might have learned the lesson in 2025 so that's the that's the kind of hope for New Orleans they're not committed to a whole heck of a lot like the guys at the are are worth it like herb tray like those guys have value for the team that you're playing for as well as if you ever want to decide to move on like everyone in the lead would want. I'm a player like those guys especially for the numbers that they're making on their team so.

They're very strong like I mean like the tray Murphy thing that's that's been talked about a lot does he want to be there does he not want to be there where would you be how wide would his market be very wide same with her Jones.

“And I think he does things just a little bit differently in terms of his rhythm and his cadence and I just love his fearlessness.”

I think Queen is going to be a really good offensive player that's like. Even if you sell off both Murphy and herb Jones and I'm not sure they will or should do that I've still got those two guys. If this one draft this this coming draft I get the best of my pick or the bucks pick just in case that flip said land against the other one the bucks get neither somehow. You cannot let those two guys walk without getting any assets in return. I'm not sure what assets you could get for either of them especially given Zion's health record should note he was his durable more durable that he's ever been last year played a ton of games and ton of consecutive games.

I can't let them walk for nothing but if I bring them back at big money my risk is I'm now paying them into parts of their career at salary amounts that maybe I didn't want to.

Interesting guys to have around I just don't know I don't even know what you do was Zion and at this point like I just I don't I didn't know how to project him at all I don't know what their plan is they've kind of stiff armed any trade discussion but I'm not sure.

“I think teams probably need another year of him playing to be like oh yeah we'll give you a lot of real stuff for Zion but maybe I'm wrong I don't know.”

And to have the kind of season where. You know like. We talked about Luca and his fitness Zion made a commitment to fitness last year that actually mattered it actually stopped I mean he got I think one hamstring injury or whatever but I've been in that like you said like he stayed on the floor that team and I know we're not talking about just you know this is another discussion but I think that's so many miles of feet.

You know like who will they start a center they were certain or Jones a center last year um you know like if you start clean if you start Zion.

The John says you're pointing to our tray actually is way better when he doesn't have to durable. Well I don't care where there were there was a small stretch to the end of the season where they were like let's try Zion at the three with me see and queen together because we need some room protection like that doesn't seem sustainable. Like that's that's there's a lot there just to just suggest what will happen with Zion if he plays on another team because there's the expectations for New Orleans is cap somewhere I think their queen was picked honestly it we're just we're just going to be blown about it.

“But those who are duplicative in ways that suggest that you see what you can get for Zion and move forward with with with queen and figure out how to form how to get guys who can defend because you know queen is not anchoring and defense.”

All all of these moves you were talking about Zion selling one of tray or herb Jones offered it to the eyes bitter on the trade market to John this future.

Underneath that is the reality that tanking is not a fail safe for me anymore the way used to be so where am I going in that sense what is my market in my ownership going to tolerate is it where is it going to go the other way are they suddenly beginning to become buyers somehow to sort of stay afloat I don't know but I know that. I don't know but I know that like this team going 15 and 67 and two years because they've traded or whatever it is they're not going to be that bad because queens and fear queen and fierce queens and fear queen and fears are are are very good rising on players but you get what I'm saying yes and the same applies to the Sacramento Kings who came in last in our rankings only have one extra first round pick.

I'm saying into them in the next six or seven years and it's a good take it's a Minnesota unprotected twenty thirty one pick and they have all their own picks.

And swaps and stuff like that but they also you know again this is the world of the the relegation zone and.

You know I like Mexican right now a lot I had him first female rookie is he a long term starter I don't know neat Clifford is a clever clever player just herky jerky a rhythmic staccato kind of game I like his feel I like his roundedness see a starter is he is seven guy I don't know a cuff obviously is going to be handed to keys he's going to put up numbers. I like him I don't know if I love him. I just don't it's it's a tough they have as much caproom as they want for whatever that's worth it historically not much historically meant overpaying.

Guys who you know didn't have his deep of a market as they wanted. I just it's it's been since 2004 that they've won a playoff series and it's it's a long long road ahead.

“And and with that I think a guy likes bonus is.”

Just as interesting to me as as Zion is in the warlands that that contract is. Prohibitive think if you're a good team like a really good we're going to do something into the play off type of team. I think your concern is what kind of players bonus in that setting do you give up assets. To have that player take up the space on your cap. Even for a year or two.

And that I feel like is limiting on you know he's he's a very good player he's going to reestablish himself this year but what does that mean and what is the value of that.

Was what if you swaps a bonus in time. Oh that's interesting that that that that's the one I've got I'm not the biggest you know we we're ready to just me and we did these we did these things. Me being an editor mind you so very very behind the scenes but. The whole trade you'd like to see and I'm like I don't want to see these trades. Kevin Pell would Kevin Pelton would come out with like this 14 months stress you really man that is like.

It's a piece of art I didn't know I didn't be roped in this team because they have cap room and you're giving them a second like God damn KP.

“And that's why KP is doing what he's doing now.”

And we're sitting out there I got Kevin Pelton. That's that's what I'm that's the one that I kicked around right because they're very similar in some ways. They're bigs they're left handed you have to adjust them over the course of a game. They'd like to play bully ball off the Zion's brand of bully ball is. Is a whole lot more considering his two hundred and eighty five pounds with that kind of handle.

What's the bonus is a big skill player right. Who is not as much of a liability outside the pink he's a reluctant you're not necessarily a poor one. Like like with those two teams be interested in flipping things we know Sacramento who has not just vaccine may not but. Bill and Carter well they do not have.

A third of center options right so.

You know you could Zion there and let things for themselves out thinking Murray could be a three. He's a three or four right now he's a four him and beyond our pretty much interchangeable. I have right Pelicans. Yeah. Pelicans would just have you know they already know like I said.

What does it look like between Zion and and and they're playing together they can be do clickative.

You'd have similar issues but at least they're different it's a different kind of fit.

And so that's my own I'm not the best trade ideas that I think that's your wheelhouse more to mind. Well I'm pretty good I'm not great but I'm pretty good.

“I have 10 teams as on my subonus fake trade list and they're all incredibly unlikely and I think first of all you said one thing that's important a year ago right now.”

Part of the issue with trading subonus was. If I'm the kings I need somebody to play center so I need to get a center back in this trade and that limited the market right away. I'm not such a believer in magazine right now that like that question's been answered for me but I'm also like a little bit less concerned about it than I used to be. But look 45 million this year 49 million next year is going to want an extension or to get paid as soon as he's on a new team doesn't you know you mentioned New Orleans they weren't really on my list because the queen subonus thing is like kind of funky and interesting is a double center look for a team that in a previous universe.

I think I'm going to have two centers and no room protection I just don't want two centers then if like I have my double center look offers no defensive upside and like limited perimeter shooting I don't like it. So here are my teams that I listen are you ready. Phoenix. I don't I don't think so right now they've got the mid sized contracts they can couple together their center position is like mark Williams model watch a Gadoro.

“I think they're kind of want to see what model watches and they just resigned mark Williams I don't see it right now Chicago.”

We talked about them as a place that has sort of a whole long term at center that's too soon too much too soon for the bulls particularly like again another. Shakey perimeter shooter with giddy and boozella's who's going to be a good shooter I think and Caleb Wilson who was an amazing shooter out of nowhere in summer league we'll see if that's real I don't I don't see it Charlotte we know they talked right and I don't think the price was ever close to what Charlotte will be willing to pay. D about a plus call printer plus a little bit of Steinbach and Nas Reed is that all along term answer it's center obviously we should be about they guessed on this podcast last year was a revelation.

Doesn't seem likely or Lando or Lando's on here is like if this season doesn't go well for a Lando is the major shake up swap one of their core players I'm not even going to say who I don't know for subonus and window card or junior goes to Sacramento is just like. I forgot to shake things up Portland was my favorite subonus team a year to 18 months ago. I've heard he feels good about that market I know he had fans in that front office. I just think clinging got good enough soon enough that that's out.

Atlanta has to be considered a wild card for pretty much anything I think they're sitting biting their time with assets with a good team hoping the rest of the Eastern conference in their frenzy.

And I don't love this subonus jail and johnson fit Dallas.

“Yeah, they you know they've got some center options they need to sort out first golden state kind of fits the curry hand off moving motion read and react.”

I just don't know like the salary is so high on my trading Jimmy Butler and my trading like jayman plus for Zingus and am I using any of my picks that I'm hoarding I don't know. And then lastly law. Dear hometown LA clippers do they want to just win more games and need her houses injured and Brook Lopez is hanging around and what do they have I say a Jackson like.

I don't know how many picks they're going to have if any once all this comes comes once the quiet deal is finished in the penalty becomes in force.

I don't think that's it I just don't know contractually it's hard to get there but you know you can do anything in groom for subonus I mean is there anything there. That's the biggest thing he makes so much. And it's so much money for that kind of a player so it's like.

“You know you have to match salaries to make these trades were and the groom is the same length about seven six million dollars cheaper this year seven million next year.”

It's an interesting idea.

But assuming print any remains up member of the LA clippers yeah there's that part to like I just there's just not enough there and. You know previously I could say things like yeah I don't think the bonus bonus is that kind of player for the team but. I mean the people who were running the team and having opinions on certain players are currently not in position to do anything right now so. Yeah there that has to be a factor to like the clippers loved playing against the bonus for years you know that's typically not the kind of player that.

You try and bring in to your team you know the kind of player that you took advantage of for years like the clippers yeah this is about love play against the bonus bonus like. I don't yeah I don't see them treating everything they got to get. No that contract I don't think it would be everything they've got and that's the reality that the kings are going to work with here is like I just don't think there's going to be a deal that knocks their socks off and I think they need to realize that they probably do.

“I think so bonus in his people need to realize that because it's going to make it harder for him to get out of Sacramento.”

Lot Murray are you still doing your epitome games have you been doing that and I've missed it it's one of my favorite little things that you did. Yeah that is done that is I got to go back and watch him. Yeah I did the whole 20 26 years across August. I'm repopulating just 30 days in September and starting to put my rotation charts out every day today is a 10th day of September so I don't know this is why I have you on because you don't just cover the clippers like you literally do a YouTube video on.

Here is the most representative game from how this team played last year plus I'm going to project them this year it's like all 30 teams are up here rattling around your brain. Yeah so that that's a part of the season where it's like I know that there's dead space there's 1000 to 130 games in the regular season okay. It it it it it's exciting for like a week or two and then things can kind of get a little blurry in there but when we have no games this is when I look back and it's like okay. I want to take a picture of what this used to look like because it's going to change when we get preseason games early regular season games we're going to get a new season.

So I'm glad that you noticed that and yeah it's a nice little passion project for me in the dead of the all season. There you go. We all need passion projects like drafting the 17s who haven't won a playoff series in the 2020s read all his coverage in the athletic especially since he's covering the team that's at the center of shit storm right now in the NBA that doesn't seem to end any time soon. Lamary thank you so much for your time and now we're going to bring in Luke Applin special guest you just wrote a great book about Moses and the doctor about the 80s the ABA the 76 just talked to Luke Lamary you're the best thank you bud.

I'm going to take a picture of this thing I'm going to put all the shoes on and you're going to take a picture of it. All the time. All the time. All the time. They're just like a fish with a fish with a fish with a 10 box. A lot of animals. The next day they're going to take a look at the scene. Okay, that's great. More comfort, craft and dynamic. All is through the past form. I'll try to understand that. Alright, let's bring on a special guest another in the series of Zach Reds some books this summer over vacation.

This book right here on the 76ers of the 1980s Moses and the doctor two men one championship and the birth of modern basketball about the 1983 full full full full Philadelphia 76ers.

But more broadly about I think a team that often gets overlooked sandwich between the Lakers championships and the Celtics championships and pre Jordan championships in the 80s and two players with very unusual journeys. You're writing on that team and I just the book is really good. It's if you don't know a lot about Moses Malone or Dr. Jay or the sixers or the ABA. It's like all a great history book full of phonetic notes all in one. What made you what made you choose this subject matter for a book which by the way.

“You must have been delighted that LeBron games and jail and Brown are now on the 76ers the year you publish this book because it's been 43 years since this championship and boy is this city starving for something.”

It's a real great coincidence. I only wish my book would have come out like in November now because it's it's even more relevant than ever.

I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you. I love that book was this idea of two leagues that were sort of running parallel to each other and they were developing different styles of plays would have been the major leagues and the Negro leagues and different ways of sort of approaching game different ideologies all that sort of stuff. I was born as fastball and I wanted to see if there was any sort of equivalent of course there's no there's no real equivalent to the Negro leagues but what I hit upon was the NBA and the American basketball association the ABA and how they developed about 10 years in parallel to each other they had different styles of play different ways of approaching things and what I really was interested in was what happens when the streams cross.

How does it change you know the league how does it change basketball how does it change the way people look at it. I approach things through character based instead of plot based and so I needed somebody to front the story and I mean who better to front at the Julia serving he and his very look in the way he played he was the ABA and so that's where I started with him.

“Did you talk to him did he sit down with you for the book or no.”

Yeah, he was pretty nice about it. He's I mean one of the main sort of points of the book is that he is sort of the foremost ambassador of basketball at that time he's really sort of booing a league that is mild and drug and image problems and he's going out of his way to talk to as many people as possible and it still seems like that holds for him. He was not that difficult to get hold of.

Moses Malone obviously passed away before did you have did you get to interview him just like separately when he was younger or is it all posthumous.

No and I was nervous of taking Moses Malone on is let's say this sort of co-protagonist of the story because the only thing that I really knew about Moses he was he was a little bit before my time when I started watching was that he never said anything and that he didn't talk very much and I was like how is he going to come to the forefront. What I learned about Moses is that when he did talk he made it count he didn't waste a lot of words with platitudes that authors generally talk about he was to the point he said things of substance and he was really funny.

I hope that this book is across his humor because he could be he could sort of say a slide line in there that would just have me cracking up while I was reading the newspaper archives. And certainly the greatest offensive rebounder in the history of the NBA and Darrell Dawkins as a quote about him where he says it's like trying to box out an octopus. I really like that one. They talk in the book about how he shoots balls on the way up which people do still now like on the way up in their jumps to try to fool shop blockers, but he did it not only to fool shop blockers, but because he knew his best chance of scoring was just going for rebound jumping for you on before his defender could jump for rebound. Yeah, he's he's one of the great like when he passed away.

There was so much sort of remembrance of hate like this guy is one of the great forgotten soup not forgotten but overlooked like three time MVP iconic figure about the NBA briefly in NBA and multiple cities like played for nine teams Charles Barkley speaks so lovingly about him as a mentor during his years in Philadelphia.

“And I think it's just great to put a kind of a shine on what he meant to leave. But what was cool about this is like the framing of the book is and I didn't really think of it. I hadn't conceived of the 83 sixers in this way.”

It's sort of like validation for Dr. Jay who has multiple ABA titles, but comes to Philly and they right away lose the 1977 finals to the Blazers, which is viewed kind of in your telling as a referendum on the NBA versus the ABA and also in a dialogue that has some pretty blatant racial overtones to and in people celebrating this sixers losing that series.

Then like a central ABA draft fake right at a high school in Moses Malone, a seminal moment and the ABA's like franchise player Dr. Jay win in the NBA in the year of the Lakers.

And so I had never really thought of the sixers as like an ABA redemption project, but they are.

It's really interesting. So when the league's merge, Julia serving holds up for more money, he doesn't get it from the nets, they have to immediately send him to the sixers who are fronted by a guy in the name of George McGinnis who had been an MVP in the ABA, he'd been a champion in the ABA and because of that sort of pairing together and the way that like it was almost like a mercenary play on Julia servings part. The sixers gained this reputation of being a sort of renegade team full of rebels and things like that. And eventually if you sort of read the coverage carefully, it is very much the way that NBA showman is thought of the ABA that this was a league that was a little bit outside of the bounds of fundamentalist basketball.

And whenever Irving plays the Wellham's Blazers, it's almost like a morality play between these sort of ABA playground inspired style of basketball versus this sort of top-down coach oriented. Everybody sharing the ball style that Dr. Jack, you know, fundamentally sound brilliant. Yeah, and so Irving himself never quite shakes off that odor of the ABA as he's going through the next seven years. The sixers at that time win more games from 1976 to 1983 than any other franchise both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

They are the elite team, but they just can't get over that hump. And it's becomes almost a point where it's not only about Irving's legacy, it is about the ABA that Irving stands for.

And he never goes without being on a team without at least two other ABA superstars, whenever McGinna leaves, you have Bobby Jones coming on, you have called well Jones there.

And then, of course, called well Jones leads and Moses Malone comes on. And so really through that whole period, he is the stand in for the ABA.

“And I think it's fitting that when he plays the Lakers in 1983, there is nobody on that Lakers roster who played even a minute in the ABA.”

And so it really is the last stand in 1983 of the ABA versus the NBA. And it's a narrative that we kind of lose track of because now we just think of it as the Irving Malone team. But if you look at it back then, the way people are talking about it, the sixers really are standing in for that league. Well, it's um, I had even forgotten like Bobby Jones becomes a defensive stopper for the sixers, a glue guy, six man a year, the year they win the title. I had forgotten that he and Dr. J played against each other when Bobby Jones was a nugget in the last ABA finals.

I thought that was that I could cool a cool little nugget and speaking of the Lakers Lakers sixers, they played each other in the finals. What three times in this in this fan of this book.

“And boys at fun to go back and reread how much Korean absolutely hated playing against Moses Malone, who I believe in the 83 finals had more offensive rebounds by himself than the entire Lakers team.”

His entire Lakers team has in the series or some crazy stat like that. And everyone knows the story. This is why books like this are so great because your brain can't hold all this information. You can only absorb so much. So like everyone knows the story about Paul Westhead and the Lakers and magic being unhappy with the way they were running their offense through Korean and playing slow.

You have an anecdote in this book that either I had never heard or I had forgotten that players on the Lakers had match books on which

I guess they wrote trade Korean and they would pass them around the locker room maybe in just maybe half and just maybe seriously in some cases. I had never heard that before is that in newspaper articles or did someone tell you that I can't remember how you got that. It wasn't a newspaper articles. It was it was told me by Steve Springer and and confirmed by Scott Osler. They were both writers and Los Angeles at that time.

“And I think that it was meant in just but it was also kind of almost like a club that younger Lakers players would form.”

Like magic Johnson and Michael Cooper and while they were like at airports they would flash these things at each other and it would say trade Korean on them as as in. Like yeah, this is this is our ideology that we're going to try to to implement here. It's funny you mentioned George McGinnis who's an ABA legend Indiana Pacers. They'd be a legend among other things.

It's too bald dominant guys with shaky jumpers and just like it would be today like the offense gets a little bogged down. There's an ego struggle. But the quotes in the book are just a reminder that man it used to just be a free for all in the media. Like players would just say whatever the hell they wanted and it was unbelievable. So I'm just going to read some of my favorite ones from the books.

Dr. George McGinnis said of Dr. Jay when their teammates in Philly.

I always felt I never got my due in the ABA.

“I was always Julia's league. So does this become Julia's esteem?”

Imagine if Dwayne Wade had said that about LeBron or something. When LeBron came to the Sixers. Then there's all this stuff about how everyone on the Sixers teams in the late 70s is so unhappy that the team actually has to find people for publicly demanding trades in the newspaper. And Dr. Jay's wife gets involved and says to what the New York Times I think.

Oh, one here respects Gene Xu, the Sixers Coach. How many guys want to win one for Xu? Not one. And sometimes not even for themselves. Imagine if a player's spouse came out and said that today. There's more. And I'm sure that I can.

Yeah, go there. Yeah, turquoise Irving who is Irving's wife. Not all she didn't say that. She wrote that. She wrote an article that she published in the New York Times. And it was ghost written.

I believe by the writer that Julia serving eventually sire as a child. Samantha Stevenson. And so it's just the sort of level of dysfunction on that Sixers team is off the charts. By the way, I had forgotten that Alexander Stevenson, the tennis players mom was also a sports reporter. Like that's like we don't need to get to do it.

But that's like Rucini, one Rucini variable 1.0 is called in your book. And you don't shy away by the way from the various marital issues and foibles of both Moses Malone and Dr. Jay. In fact, Wilts, 20,000 women thing is wildly famous. You have a line in the book that Irving openly talked about. I don't know exactly where that for a brief.

A some period of his career on the nets in New York. He experimented. That's the word to use with sweeping with a different woman every night. Where did that come from? And it comes from Dr. Jay himself.

He mentioned that as much in a biography. Um, okay, I'm going to read some more.

They would never say this now kind of stuff.

19, I think it's the 19. It's the 1977 Eastern Conference Finals when the rockets were in the Eastern Conference in the NBA. Between the 70's, 60's and the rocket. So they actually face each other. Moses Malone's on the rockets after being shoved like tossed around the league as if he were no good.

Several different use on five teams in a two-year span. Uh, and, um, Steve Mix, who's a Philadelphia forward, says this, of Moses Malone. Well, one doesn't play anybody. He only concentrates on rebounds. We've gone at him a lot and we've been successful.

He's such a bad defensive player. We were moving everything through him. He's terrible. Now, you can versions of that. Like people have talked about certain NBA players is like we're targeting him on defense.

And then Moses Malone, I've responds out for a good game. Steve Mix, you don't know what he's talking about. Mix probably had something to drink when he said that. How does he know the defense? He beyond the bench.

That's like what these guys would say way back when was was. Can I mention that I, of course, talk to Steve Mix for this book and read him.

“I read him that quote and, and I said, what were you thinking whenever you said that?”

And he says exactly what I meant. Moses wasn't that good at the defensive player. So I think you'd say it again. What if given the chance? And you, and you have in the 81 finals when the Celtics are playing Moses Malone.

Rocket's 881. Rocket's the one of the only, maybe the only sub 500 team ever to make the NBA finals. They were 40 and 42. He says he could beat the Celtics. The mighty Boston Celtics with Larry Bird.

Me and four guys off the street and say in in Peter'sburg, Virginia, where he's from could beat the Celtics. Then the Celtics get incensed when they read the quote in the paper. It's in the paper and beat the rockets. And he says after the game, they're still chumps.

Like Moses was at all a time quote guy. Oh, yeah, he was. And I mean, that's the thing. Everybody says, oh, he's the silent guy.

“But I think that one of the sort of things that I show in that book is that,”

even though Irving probably talked more than any superstar at that time, just because of all the interviews he gave. Moses is known as better known for things he said than Irving is. Like if you look at the faux faux quote or the I could beat the Celtics on my own with four guys from my home town, Moses actually had better quotes than Irving did. It was it was easy to find quotes from Irving talking.

It was harder to find quotes from Irving actually saying anything.

Well, and go into either again, had forgotten this or never knew.

The origin of his nickname, the doctor is is kind of from that. Can you tell readers if I don't want to spoil that part of the book, but it's at the beginning. About how he got his nickname.

You know, kind of even spoken person that they he would call him the doctor and not necessarily in a in a positive way, but in a way that it was like he was cerebral or intellectual or or something like that.

An Irving nickname that guy, the professor and so yeah, it wasn't that he was like operating on the court, it was more about his demeanor.

Is there anyone you didn't anyone alive who you tried to get for this book that you were not able to get to your like damn I wish I got I'm sure there's several like I'm Brett Larry bird is really hard to get. Like is there anyone like that. And obviously obviously you know bird magic they they there are people just laugh at you whenever you whenever you try to talk to them, but I would say Maurice cheeks I tried so many different ways to get Maurice cheeks to talk. I went through the Chicago bowls where he was working and I went through the mail I went through the phone I went through email I tried everything and every time he was very nice about it I even talk to him he just said I don't do this.

And of course that as you know Andrew Tony has not given an interview since he retired at least not one on the record and so you know he wasn't about to start with this book.

“Well his body I'm glad you mentioned him because you tell his story in this book how much he changed the six or I believe he's a rookie and 81 and then made the conference final is right away against Boston.”

Obviously people know the nickname the Boston Schrangler one of the great nicknames in NBA history. His body falls apart pretty fast there's some arguments as to why and how and how severe it actually was and he kind of peeders out but to hear.

The opposing players Robert parish in particular talk about Andrew Tony it's like they're talking about Michael Jordan like he wasn't that good there's only one Michael Jordan.

But Robert parish has a quote on paraphrasing and you probably know it by harbors like you know there are some guys you can guard and then there's like Andrew Tony whatever we game plan for it's out the window immediately like did we just have no answer for this guy. Yeah yeah he you know it's interesting I came to realize two things when I was doing this book because I did talk to a lot of teammates and opposing players and I would ask them two different questions. One give me your best Andrew Tony story in everybody had one and generally it wasn't about his personality because I think that he was pretty serious and quiet behind the scenes it was about him on the core just like sadly and up to Michael Cooper the greatest defense of player of his generation and just being like say aren't you supposed to be the best defense of player and like just absolutely refusing to.

You back down to anyone and then I would say give me your best girl dog in story and that was something that happened off the court and most of those could not be printed.

“And so yeah those two were sort of the characters of the book I will say they're getting to Tony like it's it's tough it's I think I think a lot of people have maybe because of the potential that went on fulfilled have maybe exaggerated.”

What he was actually like so it wasn't a little bit tough to get to the heart of him I'd say the best interview I did with him was his college coach right I don't think a lot of people talk to his name is Bobby Peschel and it was just. He didn't have a lot to say beyond just the fact that Andrew Tony was at the gym at six in the morning and left at 11 o'clock at night is just he he shot shot shot shot shot shot the guy you couldn't get him out of the gym he that's just what he was doing. Speaking of your documents I mean I just you know.

Love him and hate him lament his loss potential or unfulfilled potential he is one of the all time great characters in the history of professional basketball and I've just to give people a taste that people don't know they know about his broken backwards and all that stuff. They might not remember a planet love tron which is a planet that he claimed to be from. I had forgotten about his van do you want to talk about what was the name of his van written on it I believe.

“What was it love I can't remember now I think it was like get getting it or something like that that's right that's right again a van yeah.”

Then each he moved planets to from love tron to chocolate paradise and he was the chocolate thunder with a queen called juicy lucy this is a whole universe that they're all darkens made up that didn't exist and then he named his dunks. face disgrace turbo saxophone delight. And then one of his backward breaking ones is over a guy named Bill Rose Robesene I think the chocolate fund thunder fly and Robesene crying teeth shaking glass breaking rump roasting. Wambam glads breaker I am jam this was written in a newspaper by a column that's that like girl Dawkins kind of ghost road columns with friend lineberry back like this is the thing that happened.

So to give some context of this there used to be there used to be a Philadelphia weekly that decided that they wanted.

Each of the major sports hockey basketball baseball football they wanted a super star right at a weekly column for for them and they chose like you know Mike Schmidt and Bobby Clark and all these other big names Julia certainly turned it down and so they chose Darrell Dawkins and if you read the other columnness from like Mike Schmidt or something like that they're very.

“Anodine like we played the cardinal today was tough boys is Aussie Smith amazing.”

Do you read Darrell Dawkins he sat down with the ghost writer named friend lineberry and they would huddled together and the practice core and Dawkins would just go off on some science fiction.

Like tangent about being from the planet named love tron and having these sort of women by his side and like ruling this universe and coming down to earth to play basketball.

It's just wild stuff and it is unlike anything that that you can imagine a player doing today and Dawkins is just kind of wonderful at creating a persona for himself. You know, attracts enough attention that he can get a weedies advertisement.

“It all kind of comes to an end whenever a guy named Harold cat spies the 76ers and recognizes that Dawkins has never been an all star never been in the top.”

10 in rebounding and is actually better known for his off court antics than his on court. You know feet and it really is necessary to offload him for the six years to take that final step. Well, you compare with at the start you can you use have it sort of been your head a general idea that Moses to the sixers in the some off season of 1982 going at 82 83 might end up being similar to LeBron to the sixers 43 years later. I kind of get what you mean now that I've read the book and kind of refresh my memory but spell that out for people.

“So basically the sixers are at this point where they've they've gone through let's say it call it a process where they they they start out with the team with a bunch of superstars and a bunch of of sort of parts that don't go together.”

It doesn't work. They shed all those parts they bring in new people like Tony Bobby Jones and yet Maurice cheeks and they're trying to win with that sort of thing. It doesn't work either and it looks like you're at the end of the line Julia serving one of the one of the I would say the best scene that that I came across in the book and it's only really a small paragraph in the archives is that after the 1982 NBA finals. When the sixers lose the lakers Julia serving breaks down and cries in the locker room and he is so cool and collected that it shocked the sixers so much that they closed down the locker room. They didn't want anybody to see it.

They didn't want any sort of photographs going on about that and erving kind of recognized that that was it that was the end this whole sort of process that they've been going through it's going to end in heartbreak.

And it isn't until this very unexpected signing of Moses Malone teaming together the last two MVPs on this team that erving gets a second life.

And if you look at the sixers now they've gone through this long process which you'll well and be they had been Simmons they get sort of heartbroken by the Toronto Raptors. They, you know, add some new people like Tyrese Maxine V. J. Edge. Come, it still doesn't look like it's going to be enough and then wham this off season they get jail and brown and the brown James. It is an equivalent of if they are to pull this off I guess you'd have to put, you know, and be it in the same chair as Julia serving but it could be this unexpected resurgence of the of the sixers just when it seems like they're dead.

And one of the reasons why Moses Malone is just again, there's like a very it's less than 10 guys who have won three MVPs and Anna finals MVP as well in 83 he is the finals MVP. I think one of the reasons why he's just not remembered in that group as much as he should be is a his game was kind of workmen like like it wasn't glamorous it wasn't pretty he would have told you that right away and he one of the great things about him in this book is he just he comes off he says over and over again I'm just here to work.

And I work and I work and I work and people who want to come see me play they should know that I'm going to play super hard every single night. But also in in less than two years he goes from the Utah stars of the ABA who fold he goes to the St. Louis spirits of the ABA in the dispersal draft because another team, the Hawks are the Atlanta team stupidly trades their dispersal draft. No, he goes to I'm sorry you go to the St. Louis spirits then he goes with the ABA folds he goes to Portland because Atlanta stupidly trades their draft pick to Portland Portland.

Early part of his prime then he goes on and wins what to MVP's with the Rockets takes him to the finals and then he's then the Rockets decide they don't want to resign in either.

“Yeah it's it's almost confusing and he's just.”

There's this sort of idea of Moses Malone on the rockets that he is a little bit limited in what he can do he's an amazing rebounder but maybe he he doesn't run very well maybe he doesn't make his teammates better. It's very mistaken I think that he's just kind of like surrounded by by players that that he almost has to drag into the playoffs year after year after year after year and even though whenever he gets traded to the sisters he's only 27 he feels like he's a lot older than that and I think it is just the travel and the the sort of like you know bouncing around that he's had to do and then dragging a sub 500 rockets team to the finals.

He sort of recognizes that if his career continues on that way it's he's going to get worn out by the time he's he's 30 and of course he goes to the six years and gets a new life but even then.

“He bounces around at the end of his career too it's almost like he doesn't really have a home.”

Even though if you really sort of think about the Moses Malone is he's a very sort of homebody person who is very comfortable around a very limited number of people and so you'd think that he would just want to root himself in one place and stay there but instead. Out of all the people that have went 3 MVP's he's the one that gets shuffle around the most does he have this statue anywhere I know that the sisters and their at their practice facility have like a line of statues like smaller statues leading up I don't know if he's one of them.

I don't know if he's in the smaller one he's certainly not in the bigger one and you know the book I don't want to give away the end of the book but I guess they will.

He you know the the six has come to him right before he passes and asked if he if he wants to have his his number retired and Philadelphia and he says no and they say why and he says well if you're going to retire my number then everybody should be up there and so he won't let them go through with it until.

“They've stitched the names of every single person he played with in Philadelphia on to oh not just the 83 team.”

Yeah, every single every same person 84 85 86 and so it's all up there on the rafters and that kind of you know I thought that person if I really what he he was the teammate. Yeah, I don't want to give away the rest of the book people just isn't by NBA fans you need to have this book it's it's awesome it's fun to read it's full of anecdotes just to what your appetite your three things just pop into my head is like stuff in the book. A what if with Dr. Jay and pistol Pete Maravich potentially on the same team. I had also forgotten like the last ABA all star game is famous for the dunk contest between Dr. Jay and David Thompson what you get into.

Champions versus all stars from the rest of the teams in the ABA Denver against or was it team with the best record I came up with the best record and the NBA all started happened to be in Denver it's the only time in all start game was also a home game. I a gimmick that like is the NBA is trying every single possible gimmick to save the all star game and they may have landed on one that works now with the world stuff that that's a fun one and just. You're going to know that there's wild Moses Malone college recruitment stories there's even more wild Moses Malone college recruitment stories and I had even remembered or read about before in this book which is feel how many people junior view for this thing.

I don't I mean 100 or so I don't and actually a lot of them did pass away lefty dry sell who is the coach of Maryland passes away Moses is agent Lee a Ventress is as Alzheimer's Harold Katz passes away Pat Williams passes away it was it was the right time to write this book. It's just chalk full of good stuff. Luke Applin it's been awesome talking to you I really enjoyed the book and I can't recommend to highly enough it's it's a great it's a team there's certain teams that I've been yearning for like a deeper book that looks at them this is one of them I can talk about like late 70s early 80s spurs I think they need a book the hawks of like the mid 70s they need a book this is an essential book for any sports library Luke Applin thank you sir.

All right that's it for today's episode thank you to law Murray thank you to Luke Applin by his book thanks is always to Mike Billy and Jonathan on production thanks you all for listening to and or watching this act low show will be back early next week we're back to two episodes a week the NBA is right around the corner who knows what will happen over the weekend see all next week.

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