Rebecca Engle: neurodiversity in the classroom and stories of advocacy

Miathor.

“But casting from the heart of music city, USA National Tennessee.”

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We're igniting a global movement to empower everyone to make a lasting difference by fostering deep awareness, unwavering acceptance and profound understanding of autism and mental health. So now, be inspired and join us in transforming the world one story at a time. Hi, I'm Tony Miathor, welcome to Why Not Me Embracing Autism and Mental Health worldwide. Joining us today is Rebecca Engel, an autistic educator, author, and powerful advocate for

neurodiversity in education. Rebecca brings both lived experience and professional insight to her work as a teacher, helping students feel seen, understood, and supported in systems that weren't always built with them in mind. Through her writing and her classroom work, she challenges outdated narratives around autism

and replaces them with honesty, compassion, and practical understanding. Her story is not just about teaching, it's about learning, unlearning, and creating spaces where neurodivergent voices are valued rather than accommodated as an afterthought. This is a conversation about identity, resilience, and what happens when autistic educators step in and help reshape the future of education from the inside out.

We'll talk about how she became an author and uses that to help people as well. So before we dive into our episode, we'll be back with an uninterrupted show right after a word from our sponsors. Thanks for joining us today. Yeah, thank you for having me.

Oh, it's my pleasure. I understand, in your early years, you were non-verbal. Yeah. Can you share some of the early moments in your life and what challenges helped you create what you have become today?

Yeah.

“So, I think having to navigate the struggles, you know, I always had to fight for something.”

I always had to fight for what I wanted to achieve in life and my mom will tell you that

she always jokes around that I'm one of her most successful children, because I've always had to fight to get everywhere, communication, gotten to stay conferred intelligence, adults as to my silence, met lack of understanding, and I was clocking everything. I was clocking the toe, and I was clocking the room, I was clocking the roles. So I learned how to clock that as an adult, and a lot of my needs when I met, so I feel

like I overdo my needs now. You know, the hunger, pain, the fear, the overwhelm, the sensory overload, a lot of it, you know, just was ignored. So I feel like I overdo self-care now, and I'm very aware of when I need things, because I overlooked it as a child.

Okay. So when you say you overdo, can you give us a few examples of what you mean on overdoing some things in your life? Like, things that I overdo now? Yeah, that works.

Yeah. So, there's days where I just knock out all day long, like, I don't want to do anything. I sometimes overdo with skin care, right, so like, I'll buy way too many products to take care of myself. I'll overdo getting supplements, I'll overdo routines.

I'm very, very picky with my calendar and my timing and my schedule. I am very careful about, you know, regulating my whole body, I go to the chiropractor every week, which is, you know, something that most people do, rarely, if at all. I work out twice a week, and I'm very particular about when that happens.

“So, I think that's kind of what I mean by the overdoing.”

Okay. You said that you felt unsupported, and you felt kind of secluded in school. What did that do to you, ultimately you thrive academically, because you did get your bachelor's degree, then you got your master's in educational policy and leadership at Texas Tech, I believe.

Can you tell us the steps you took to achieve all this? I'm trying to think of how to best take this question.

I think, you know, planning my day, scheduling, being always on top of it, was what got

me there, but I think, again, I think challenges that I was constantly facing and conflicted with kind of pushed me to keep going, like, you know, during my bachelor's, I was told I was too autistic to teach, and I had to graduate, but I wanted to insurance. So, you know, I, like, graduated early, but then I forced myself to immediately start my

Sure. Sure. That makes sense. Why in the world would someone tell you that you're too autistic to teach?

“You're learning all the things that you need to learn, you're doing your studies, you're”

figuring it all out. This just does not make sense. Yeah, it didn't make sense. The director of education at my university pretty much said that I didn't communicate correctly with kids due to my autism, despite having all five star rankings across all of my evaluations,

and was just always saying that my communication was off or not there, which actually set

me to set a communication goal as my goal when I got to my first year teaching, because I was so self-conscious about meeting these requirements that I was scared that I was scared that my communication was going to get me fired and make me lose my job or make me not applicable enough and funny enough. My last two years teaching communication has been my highest area on my record.

So I still, to this day, have no clue what this woman meant. Yes, that's very strange and unprofessional. In my opinion, how did it start off for you? You said you was nervous, which is totally understandable. You were going in and working with those kids, so did you start off kind of tentative?

Or did you go in there with confidence and say, hey, this is what it's going to be. This is what we're going to do and let's see where the chips fall. I was very much, you know, believed in myself and was very much relatable with the children.

“I teach special education, so I think that help calm my nerves.”

I feel like if I were around neuro-typical children all the time, I feel like I would pass

to mask or hide my stemming or my communication style and things like that, but I'm very open with my students, like, I'm overwhelmed right now, please stop, right, or, you know, we're allowed to have those conversations and it goes both ways and I tell them that at the beginning of the year, like, hey, like, you know, you have sensory needs, but so do I.

And this is my background. And a lot of the time, you'd be surprised how shockingly open they are to those things. That's really good to hear. Now, some kids tend to question others that say their autistic, did you have that issue or did you find that connection you was hoping for right from the start?

I automatically connect. I feel like I teach the younger grades, so I don't think they think of, they don't like question it. And, you know, I don't go up to my kids and straight up, say, I'm autistic and ADHD, right, because some of them don't even know what those terms are yet.

And some of them aren't autistic or ADHD themselves.

“They have other neuro-tylvers traits like dyslexia or dysgraphia, dyscathia, right?”

And so I'm very, just, like, up front about my sensory needs and things that trigger me or set me off rather than the disability itself. And I feel like they connect with that. Like, oh, you know, that noise sets me off too. For that texture feels weird to me too, right?

Or things that are palatable really to any human, but more offsetting for neuro-tylvergent individuals. That makes total sense. How long did you teach before you decided to move on to other things? I'm still teaching.

Oh, you are. That's great. Are you teaching the same age groups as you were before? Better, yeah. What are some of the challenges you've seen now that you've been in teaching for a few years?

Yeah. So I've been teaching for two years now if you count my student teaching and stuff a little over three. And I would say that funny enough, I've actually been in a self-contained unit. I've been in a resource classroom, which is like a pull-out setting, and I've been a dyslexia

therapist. So I've kind of seen all three sites, resource you're pulling out your kids who are out used to get ADHD, but not enough for that self-contained setting. And of course, I've done fifth and sixth grade self-contained, I've done three through five resource and toe-teach, which is like, included in minutes.

So I'm going into the classroom and helping kids one-on-one in their genite setting. And then I've done dyslexia pull-out for Kinder all the way to sixth grade. So I've seen all the grades pretty much from your early primary to the sixth. So yeah. What were some of the challenges that you felt were, or could be bigger than what

you thought they might be, or how am I going to handle this? So what are some of the challenges that you overcame, either personally, or you helped a student, overcome some of those challenges? Yeah. Some of my challenges as an educator really are handling noise overwhelm, especially in

those co-teach settings. I had to find the correct environment, right, because I knew that the 25 to 30 kids at a time, even if I was only working with one, was too much for me. And then, of course, in the self-contained setting, I had a lot of kids with autism, and they had severe needs that need to be met, but not only were they autistic, a lot of them

were deaf or blind as well.

So I was dealing with the non-verbal communication and that, and I had never gone through

being deaf or blind, right? So despite being autistic, I had to almost connect, like, okay, back a little now, you know, take the fact that you were non-verbal, and imagine if your eyes, you know, didn't

my gosh, like, I kind of had to step into their shoes even more so. And I guess one of the things I thought about was, like, I don't know how neurotypical teacher who doesn't have the background of being neurodivergent, also doesn't have the background of being, you know, deaf or blind, steps into these shoes and has to, you know, imagine this classroom or the structure for this child, not understanding 100% of

them, you know? And so I had to reshape this polling from my personal experience and really dig into, like, how do you teach kids like this? And so I had to take something that I didn't have to in the past, and then for the dyslexia, again, I'm not dyslexic.

“So I think that that opened a whole another door, right?”

I had to be more open-minded than I was with that resource setting because I was the resource kid, and so it was a lot easier for me to navigate that than it was the other two settings because I hadn't lived those settings. I was self-contained and pre-cap, but after that I was Gen Ed so. Okay, being autistic yourself, autistic people are known to have their meltdowns.

Have you had situations where you were in the middle of a class, you felt a meltdown coming on? How did you handle that? Well, that's a good question. I have a color-coded card next to me at my kidding table, so if I have a moment like that,

I can show to my students and they tend to know. Sometimes I'll do this, and my kids immediately know, like, I'll put my hands up for those maybe listening auditory only, and I'll close my eyes, and they'll be like, "Uh-oh, they know, like, oh, oh, Ms. Ingolzomer stimulated," and so they'll kind of reset, or one of my other kids will be like, "Hey, look, she's overwhelmed."

“I'd like point at me, or I'd say, "Take a minute and read this real fast.”

I'm going to take a second."

And they know, I mean, that's one of the best parts about teaching your editing kids is because I can do the same thing with them, or if I stim like this, or, you know, rub my hands together, or whatever, they're well aware of why I would be doing that. And sometimes they join in, like, "Oh, we can unmask right now," which is awesome. "Okay, we've covered your meltdowns. Now, what about the kids? Because they're not adults,

they are going to handle their meltdowns completely differently than you might." So, how do you help them through their meltdowns so that everything's okay, and you can move forward with your class? Yeah, I have a regulation system, which is available on my teachers' pay teachers, but it's pretty much at the rezoned system, so it starts with regulating their nervous system.

The one area is full of weighted tools and activities. The other one is full of, like, sensory supports with calming, so like, maybe we're running in a circle or repeated motion of the body, while the other one is noisyking, and then

the third area is, like, journaling, releasing my emotions, drawing, and the whole goal is

that they're more comfortable than your desk seat. So a lot of my students know to follow that system, and I slowly teach them that system, and I actually model it when I'm overwhelmed, and so they're like, "Oh, okay, my single is doing it, let's join her if they need it." And some of my kids, I'm just like, "Are you not ready right now to learn?"

When they're going through a hard time, kids stop processing when they're not ready to learn. I can get them to sit still and comply, but they're not going to actually pick up anything I'm teaching them at a certain point. And so I'll just say, like, go relax, go calm your body, go make sure that you're okay.

They know their areas that they're allowed to be in, I don't really have strict rules on that. You know, don't be a distraction and we're doing it. And then, you know, I call them in the next day, and I remind them of, you know, like, "Hey, this is what we did yesterday. Are you ready?

Don't learn it today." And most of the time, if you just say, "Okay, I'm not even going to force you." Within five or ten minutes, they're like, "Oh, I'm ready now." And I didn't even have to fight them to try, but they watch their peers, and they're like, "Well, they're having fun.

Oh, wow. They're joining themselves, and they end up joining into the lesson." So, sometimes it doesn't even take the full class. Okay. Now, what about some of the neuro-typical teachers?

Have you had any of them that questioned what you were doing? Or they just do not understand what you're doing? How have you handled that? Yeah. So, funny enough, the reason I've been in three classroom settings in two educational

years is because my second job, they actually forced me to resign.

“I was following that three space model, and they told me you need to have one calm down”

corner. It's like, but I don't believe in one calm down corner. I have three calm down corners because not everybody calms down the same way. And so, I was in an autism unit, and I got all six autistic children that were self-contained to actually attend gen-ed classes all day long.

With support, but the fact that I was able to do that by October was considered oppressive. They would come back and regulate and then go back to class. I mean, they had their moments, and they knew that they were allowed to come back whenever

And the neuro-typical teachers said you need one calm down corner, and the neuro-typical

“district leaders said you need one calm down corner, and you need to use tokens.”

You need tokens to control the kids. So every time they come back, but you tell them to know that they have to stay in class, you take a token away. And pretty much they wanted me to train them, like a dog, like here's a treat every time you do what I say, every day of the week.

And I refused. I know this is my system, all of my kids get a treat at the end of the day regardless of how it's today when. I thank you for being here in the morning, and I thank you for being here at the end of the day.

And it has nothing to do with their behavior, and my district was very much against it. So I ended up having to leave. The school I was at, they called me into a meeting with HR, and they said you can either grow on a growth plan to learn how we do things, or we can have you resigned. And I was like, okay, I'll peacefully leave.

So I did leave. So I've had neuro-typicals misunderstand. I've also had neuro-typical teachers tell me that they will not provide accommodations

“to a student with autism or ADHD unless they are medicated.”

Wow. Now, what about their parents? Because your autistic, they should see that you understand them better than the other teachers. And that should have made a difference. Did you get the support from them right away?

Yeah, so I've mostly talked with children that are homeless or in poverty. So I've had a mix of parental involvement, however, when my parents are involved or talking to me.

I'd never had a parent who's upset with me, and that's rare as a special ed teacher.

I feel like I've never had an advocate sitting in a meeting. I've always had supportive parents and parents who, you know, thank me. I've had parents thank me for being young, like, who are just happy that their teachers under a certain age. I've had parents just meet with me and asked me about my autism, and I'm very open

with them. I love it. I love that I have that connection with my students, and, you know, I feel like a celebrity when I walk through with parents and teachers or students because it's parents and students are always like screaming my name.

And so it's like feeling like a celebrity while I walk down the hallway, especially like during student awards and things like that. Yeah. I think that's really cool. That's awesome.

At what point did you start to write about your experiences when did you start doing that? Yeah. My college year's really inspired that I was actually a volunteer with a refugee group in San Antonio.

It was required for my history degree under my bachelor's degree, because I had bachelor's degree in history and one in education. And one of the requirements for this degree was that I had to do like 300 hours or refugees in order to do those 300 hours. I went to a tutoring room at an elementary school and worked with these refugee students.

One of my college professors was like, we need you to write a book on books good to teach kids with autism or kids about autism. And every book I found was written by someone who was not autistic. Every children's book I found was written by the mom or the dad or the sibling of, but because of, and I was just like, why?

Like how does this genuinely teach kids about autism? Like, it teaches the parents perspective, but it doesn't teach how the kid feels. And so I was like, Prof, I can't do this, like, this doesn't exist. And so I was like, I'm making my own book. And so one of my college professors, Dr. David Kompos, he handed me a book that he was

inspired by, that was written by someone who was deaf and it was like a children's graphic novel.

“He was like, you need to read this and inspire your book.”

So I've inspired my own writing from that and wrote it and published it. And then people were like, you know, you speak out against these token economies and these behavior charts, but why? And so I was like, well, that's book number two.

Then I just never stopped.

I had people come to me who were like, I want to share my disability story, but I don't know how so that I made an anthology. And then people started asking me about stimming. And I was like, oh, I should make a book out of that. So that's my most recent release.

Okay. So let's talk about that a little bit more. Your recent release. When you give us a little insight on what it is, what it's about, and a little bit on what people can expect about what's in it.

Yeah. My most recent release is the way I move. And it's literally about stimming on the body movements of stimming and talks about like, why we stem, how we stem, but I have some neurological definitions in the front so that you can understand the neurology behind this stimming in the movement.

Also, it's very child friendly for kids to read.

But ultimately it's this little girl who's based on me named Riley and Riley goes through

the day and she's stimming a different thing. She's feeling different textures in the grocery store. She's going to different, you know, different things at our house and then ultimately they cause her to stem. And so it's very just talks about the ways we stem, how we stem, what causes us to stem.

And I'm very clear about everybody stemming differently.

I think that's awesome. Now how many pages do your books have? Yeah. So both my children's books are around 30 to 35 pages and my adult books are anywhere from 150 to 180.

Oh, that's perfect. How many books do you have total? I have four books I've written in 15 that I've co-authored. Okay. Now, let's dig a little bit into your books that you have co-authored.

Are they the same topics? Can you give us a little background on them? Yeah. So a lot of my books that are co-authored are poetry. I was a part of a group called The Unsealed and I literally entered these competitions

to win money for college and they came and they were like, hey, we're going to actually publish you. And then Carrie Margro, a popular voice, I entered his scholarship and he was like, hey, I'm publishing your voice too. So he put my story in a book of his and then the Unsealed put my story in their books.

And then I was invited by Dr. Shiley Dang out of San Diego, California to publish a book called Woman of Purpose.

And it was her first ever one.

And this book is very successful when I was invited by her to publish. I still had only published one book of my own. And then I had co-authored nine poetry books at that point through The Unsealed. And it was just contest I entered then publishing them. And Shiley invited me to collaborate on her second book because one of her authors dropped

out. And so she was like, oh, you can be on my second one. So that's mostly how that came about. And then I've been quoted in other works and stuff just accidentally. I think that's awesome.

“Now you have one that's called Stepping in My Shoes, right?”

Yes. Can you give us a little background on that? I'm sure it sounds like something that means walking my shoes for a while and maybe you'll understand. Yes.

Yeah.

So that's my first ever children's book.

We've sold 15,000 copies of that book. Wow, nice. And that came out in October of 2024. And that book is very centered on literally walking into the shoes of what it's like to go to school as an artist and so that's the one that college inspired me to write.

Nice. Now are you self publishing or do you have a publisher? I have a hybrid publisher now when I first started publishing, it was me, just me. Yeah, that's great. So you have someone that's helping you now.

Yeah. Do you have illustration in your books or is it mostly just words? Both of my children's books are fully illustrated and then the other two books are no illustrations because they're adult books except for the cover.

“Now which does better your books for the children or the ones for the adults?”

Um, my children's books do better than my adult books. What do you think the reasoning is that the adults don't dig a little deeper and read your books so they can understand more? Is it because you think they might not understand or what do you think the reasoning is behind this?

I think there's a fear of change. I think that a lot of people fear changing the system, right? We know something is the way it is and it's going to stay that way. And a lot of my books threaten the system, you know, the school to prison pipelines are threatened.

The behavior system is threatened. PBIS which started in 1990 is threatened. ABA is threatened and I feel like we fear those changes and my children's books don't have anything controversial, right? This is what it's like to be autistic in school and how I talk and then the other one is

how I move. So you know, stimming is something everyone knows about and so is being autistic, right? Like communicating a device or communicating with, you know, your hands like we are well aware of those two things exist. They're not controversial.

While my adult books are very much controversial. What is it that you dig into the so controversial? You say you're challenging the system.

“How are you addressing the system that is so controversial?”

Yeah, so my whole entire like life line of work is challenging positive behavior intervention supports. Then actually my short speaks to it. I'm not a behavior chart. I'm not a point system.

I'm not a principal award. I'm not a classroom token. And schools rely on these systems heavily. You'll see that, you know, like you have perfect attendance awards and ABA on a role and I speak and say that all of those are abusive and are in long-term development and a lot

of people are like, well, but you know, there's this and this and this and people attack me. I mean, both of my children's books are rate five stars and my other two books are three point five and four point two and there's a reason for that. Well, I think that you're not wrong.

I think the system does need to be challenged at times. I've been doing this podcast for about two and a half years now.

When I first started, I knew nothing about autism at all.

Now I've heard and seen so many people take so many different paths to get where they wanted to get for their children and themselves. There really is no right or wrong path. It really comes down to what works for you. Sometimes people want to do it a certain way and it's almost like trying to put a round

peg in a square hole. It just doesn't work. What do you see in the future for what you are doing?

bit of pushback.

So how do you see this going and what do you see happening for your future?

Yeah, I expect certain points to be canceled or attacked. I already have been multiple times. I definitely expect to see the change though. I think that the louder my voice is out there, that the more people will open their eyes. I've had hundreds of people, even people who practice PBIS, say, "Hey, you gave me a

solvable solution to get rid of the system and so now I'm going to use the system that is created by you." when I think that that was the biggest problem in this fight is that, you know, so many people are like, "I hate PBIS, don't use it, but what are we using instead?"

“And I feel like that's what I bring to this fight.”

And so my hope is that the instead that I brought and what I've designed is used instead

of this PBIS system. And I think that over time I'll see that adaptation. Yeah, that's great. Now, how do you see this expanding? Do you see this expanding past your local area and then hopefully to a national stage?

Or do you see it maybe even going worldwide? Yeah, so I've spoken internationally. I've spoken in all the way virtually through Zoom. I've spoken in New Zealand. There's people in Canada who have my voice that have been published with me.

I have following different parts of Asia. I have a platform, pretty widespread.

“This year I'll be in California, I'll be in Minnesota, virtually, kind of see virtually.”

I just heard back from a conference in Rhode Island. So yeah. That's awesome. I love it. How can people contact you and most importantly, how can they follow you to see what

you're doing? Yeah. So my Facebook is Stitches and Stances. My Instagram is Stitches, Stances, and I'll have a website which is coming soon. It's StitchesStances.com.

Perfect. Now, how do they find your books and where can they get them?

So if you just look up Rebecca Engel on Google, my Amazon link is the first link you'll

see and you can find all four of my writings. Awesome. Now, in closing, what is important that you think our listeners need to hear, not only about your writings, but what you are trying to do moving forward. Yeah, I think that ultimately what I want people to understand is you can't solve every

child through compliance.

“You can't solve every nervous system through compliance. You have to allow for student”

choice. You have to allow for neurodivergent choice, but you also have to move away from compliance based systems in order to do that. Yeah. Well, this has been great.

Great conversation, great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's been my pleasure.

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