Dave Chappelle on free speech and the purpose of comedy | NPR’s Newsmakers

Hello, this is Michelle Martin with a special episode of Up First.

A conversation from our sister's show, NPR's newsmakers, where we interview some of the most influential people of our time. You can watch the show on NPR's YouTube channel or search for newsmakers wherever you get your podcast. Our guest today is comedian Dave Chappelle. [MUSIC]

My favorite part of my evolution was when I quit. [NOISE] Do you feel like your job is to be provocative? No, I don't court it. I just don't fled from it.

But if you a person that's very angry or passionate about something,

“and you feel like you have to police comedy to get your point across,”

you should assess your point. [MUSIC] Dave Chappelle is one of the most influential stand-up comedians of our time.

He's known for pushing the boundaries of what it's OK to say in public.

He also uses his influence to advance the causes he believes in in his art and in his community. Now you probably know that, but what you may not know is that he lives here in Yellow Springs, Ohio. And that's what we begin our conversation. Thank you for having us. Oh man, what an honor.

What an honor. Tell us where we are. Well, this is my future offices from my production company, and what they call the old Union Schoolhouse in Yellow Springs, Ohio, which we have just completely renovated. Far local NPR, Philly WISO.

Is it too strong to say that you saved the station? Save the station, no. I think the station would have survived and hopefully thrive without me. But what I did achieve is I kept them here in Yellow Springs. So our NPR Philly, it has a very special relationship with the community.

It's like our lifeblood. It's a connective tissue for our community. So if they had left, we would still listen, but it would have been demoralizing for us if they were to have to do that. And they had reached an impasse where they got independence from the university.

They used to be a Philly with Antioch. And they wanted to stay in town. But there was nothing available. And this building was in disrepair. They were just staying in disrepair.

But when I was growing up, this building was vibrant. And it was like a municipal building. They would do people come here to pay their power bill and stuff like that. And then as the years went on, it had a few other purposes. But it just kind of got run down, like most of the Midwest.

It just kind of was looking for a new purpose. It was not an expensive building to buy. It was an expensive building to fix. No, yeah. But it was worth every penny.

Like... Remind us if you would, because some people know your story, but everybody doesn't.

“Why Yellow Springs is so important to you.”

And you live here now. I live here. I've been living here since like 2000. But maybe you live here. And this is like your summer place.

Like you live here. Yeah. My only homes are here. But I have many homes here. I'm from DC.

My both my parents are. But before I was born, my father worked at Antioch University. My mother worked at Willow for us. They came back to DC. I was born.

And then maybe two years into my life, they separated. And my father moved back here. So I don't have many memories of them married. But he was very present in my life. And I would spend holidays and vacations here with him.

So I guess I've always associated this place with relaxing.

And around 98 he passed. He was ailing for a while. So for a year, I would drive back and forth from New York to Ohio. And at that time, it wasn't a hotel here. There was no way to stay.

And so I ended up by the house. It was a small place. And so I could see my dad out. And then when he passed, I left New York and moved into the house. And kind of packed up show business.

And didn't go back to New York till I did Shappelle Show. But that's not just been here ever since. But you could live wherever you want. Is this like a heartplace for you? Yeah.

“Well, I think earlier that time in my career,”

I didn't know that I'd do as well as I did. And I figured I should build a lifestyle for myself that I can afford for a while. So I could be more adventurous with my career. And well, I've also heard you say that you think you can feel normal here. Without question.

What does that tell me what that means?

It's hard.

I don't know what that's like for them, but I'm just a local here.

In a small town, everyone knows everyone anyway. And they knew me poor. They knew me rich. And all these different incarnations myself. So there's just a baseline of normalcy.

You know, everyone kind of grew up together. You know, we watched our kids grow older together. And we all kind of segue in life together. I know that you hear me so-and-so pasted you. You know, you look after each other.

It's a real feeling of community here. And you can just go to the store and get to whatever without. I was grocery shopping before I came. It's alright. Yeah.

You didn't bring us anything.

What'd you bring us? Oh, I didn't bring that. I didn't bring groceries. I mean, really, you can just go to the store and get a milk. And don't have to worry about somebody putting a camera in your face.

No, people. No disrespect to cameras.

“But I'm just saying you can just go do your thing without feeling like you have to get dressed up.”

I'm saying it even further than that. I feel like locally, my privacy is something people feel they need to protect. I mean, if someone comes up, hey, where's Dave's pill? They're nothing. They're just, they just look out for me.

They look out for my kids. They look out for my wife. I know their families. If they need stuff they can call us. And they know when here is a complete stranger that happens very rarely.

And the town is a tourist town.

So there's always people around that I don't know.

But I like that as well. I love people on that. I'm not living a hermit's life out here. But the rest of my life is so chaotic, and so large, and dramatic, and power's intrigue, and whatever it is that happens to show business. I connect with this simplicity.

I do have time to think. I have time to read. I've time to hang out with my friends.

“It's a nice, nice, nice balance for my life is in total.”

We've all been there. Maybe somebody tells you too much about the twist ending of a movie, or they tell you who dies at the end. In other words, you've run into a spoiler. How should you handle spoilers and what even counts as a spoiler? We'll tell you how we handle spoilers as critics on NPR's pop culture happy hour.

Listen via the NPR app, or wherever you get your podcasts. In your recent Netflix special, the unstoppable what you were talking about. Yellow Springs, and you said, "I'm not a public servant. I'm a capitalist." But you're a capitalist, and you came in to give a major boost to a public radio station.

So is that an investment? Is it a service? Is it a philanthropy? Is it? Maybe all the above.

You think about what a comedian does for a living. People, I'm successful because people take care of me, because they believe me, because they buy tickets and get babysitters and go through trouble to come see me. And so I treat it like it's reciprocally special. I love being there as much as they love being there.

“And I think it's important for an artist like me.”

I'm putting this on all artists. But for an artist like me, that relationship is something I'm true to. In the sense that it's good that I demonstrate that I don't take it for granted. That people are protected for my privacy and my community. Or that we have a radio station that tells our stories.

And like my son in turn, it would be why I saw it. It ignited things in his mind and gave him aspirations that he didn't have before. I want to talk about what his dreams are. But I'm just saying, "Here, this station really does touch our lives. It's not just radio here."

But you know, there have been major figures major, okay, I'll just say. Rich people who have wrapped their arms around media organizations before. And it has gotten inconvenient for them or it's misaligned with their other business objectives. And they've changed what the organization is. So do you feel confident that if this place becomes inconvenient to you?

You're not going to, I don't know, cut the water off or. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's church and state. Look, in fact, the only reason I'm doing press around it is because I think the ethical community needs to be amplified. And I think that the importance of public broadcasting needs to be amplified. But other than that, I like talking.

I'm like, I'm a filthy nightclub comics and someone kid in my court. That's all I see myself as. And I don't want to say anything that gets them in trouble.

I don't believe everything they say.

They don't believe everything I say, but it's fine. But I like that NPR exists. Let's say, for the sake of argument, they cover a story involving some of your business interests in town

“and the way that you don't like. What you're going to do?”

Well, cross that bridge. I mean, it's happened before. I've heard them say things or criticisms of my work or on the station or on NPR. I mean, it's just, that's part of my job. But the relationship that this place has with our community, pre-exist my career. I mean, I can't really take that personally. In fact, the more separate we are,

I think the more comfortable we feel. But at the same time, you know, it's familiar. Do you see journalism and comedy being related in some way? Incredibly.

Well, first of all, journalists determine what the baseline reality is.

So, you guys, this has been times where I could write an act that's just a rebuttal to reporting. Right. Now, there's cable reporting which is a lot more editorializing. What I like about NPR's reporting is fact based, but you'll cut the meat. The journalists will ask the question, what does that mean? Tell us what that means. First of all, we'll explain something. In the last three, the last ten years, watching the news is like taking a civics class.

Because there's so many things that are happening in politics and whatever that are unprecedented.

“And you have to explain to a person, well, this is why this is unusual.”

And, you know, whatever the case may be, this contextualization is what comedians do. We're like the nation's kidney. We help everyone metabolize, not just facts, but feelings around facts or ideas. And in the last 15, 20 years, our culture and our media has been an avalanche of facts and ideas. It's very difficult to sift it. And at that time, you've seen comedy rise up at the top of all genres because it does help people contextualize.

It seems more about that, about comedy being like the nation's kidneys. I've heard you say this before, you used some language I can't use, but it involved, you know, as you put out, let's put it. How can we put it in ways that won't jeopardize my license? Oh, I'm like, yeah, what does that mean? We're helping people process all the...

Well, yeah, we... - And you really do? - Get it out here, but let's see more about that, because the implication then is that you're engaged with the... Dick Gregory wants to describe Richard Price work as brain surgery. Or if, you know, you know, I don't want to get on to the specifics of things I say on stage, but there's a lot of big ideas that people have feelings about. There's no real context to compensate or rebut them. And jokes are just a short hand for all of that.

And sometimes it could be as simple as just laughing at something or making light at something, just makes it feel less daunting. Do you feel like your job is to be provocative? I'm just thinking about being connected to provocative. Provocative controversial polarizing any of that? No, I don't court it. I just don't flinch from it, because it... The core, man, again, my core, I'm a filthy nightclub at first.

I started in smoky rooms in DC and black crowds and white crowds. And people had drinks and they just grew up and said what they said back then.

And it was never a big deal.

And then it's the time when all the cultures started trying to renegotiate itself. And it's a great time to be a comedian. When you say, I'm thinking about the role that a lot of black comics have played for particularly for black people. A lot of times it's a release.

“Because a lot of times I think a lot of black people feel the way they have to navigate the world is to keep things stuffed down, right?”

So I think that a lot of black comedians, their role has often been to give people a release. To let them say the things that they can't say when they're going to their job or whatever. But now you are international. I mean, people all over the world watch you, listen to you, certainly not just black audiences listen to you. And I wonder do you feel like your job is different now?

I'm an ambassador of American culture more than I was. If I put a show up in Berlin or Vienna, people come and see me. They're coming to see me as an American voice as much as a black one. Even in the States, they might not see it that way. You know, I got all that black for doing that festival in Saudi Arabia, but in Saudi.

You know, I don't think that festival would have been legitimate if I wasn't there. Same with about that. Same with about that. I'm not the biggest comedian, but my voice is sought after. In Saudi Arabia, for like the last 20 years, they've been doing really maybe 15 years. They've been trying to do comedy shows in Saudi Arabia, underground shows.

The jokes will like contraband. These shows would happen in people's homes. They would happen in embassies, you know, comedians like Mars, Gibrani, and guys like this. They've been going over there for years in doing these shows. Probably. Quite quietly.

Quite a close to being private. Whatever, I don't know what their laws are.

But for the elite, basically, people who, for necessarily the elites.

But yeah, for people who could have a house like that. I don't know what those shows like because they didn't do those shows. Okay, yeah.

“The first time I can remember doing a big show in the Middle East,”

my opening act was a guy named Mo Amber, who's Palestinian-American, you know, from Houston, but, you know, originally from Kuwait, but he's Palestinian. And Mo was probably on that circuit doing the secret shows in Saudi. And, man, the thing that was remarkable was the Crown reaction. Right, right before I went on stage, actually funny.

Right before I went on stage, they gave me a list of all the things I wasn't supposed to address. It was like right before I went on stage. So I took a list on stage, and that was the show. I just did the list. I talked about the real family, that's y'all, and I just made fun of them, man.

They were screaming. Scraping. Then after the show, I'm backstage at a meeting group. And there was all these young comedians from all over the Middle East. They were looking at me like, I wouldn't even know that they'd know who I am.

They couldn't believe I was there. They kept saying, "You just say that stuff?" Yeah, I mean, yeah.

I big dealed with my mind, but I never forgot that.

And that was in Dubai, man, in Rio. That crown, watching that kind of thing. The first time the government let them even see something like this. It was like a baby tasting sugar. If I had choked the tiger out, they couldn't have been more impressed.

They were screaming. You think you're creating space for them? That must have felt incredibly cathartic if you can't say everything you want to say. But you see somebody model that behavior. Oh, man, you're going to want it.

So if you think of all the violence and all the things we export to the Middle East, I think our culture's the best export we got. But I didn't feel wrong being up there. Yeah, I know we were talking about the comedy festival in 2020, but you did get a lot of fall.

You did get a lot of, I don't know what you'll push back or criticism. It's a great opportunity. It's a great opportunity. Okay. The intelligence US intelligence did make it clear that they believe that the Saudis killed Jamal Khashoggi

and the embassy in Turkey. You knew that when you went, right?

“Oh, absolutely not. You should tell you.”

You had no qualms. I want to say that they asked me to go years before that. And I said no for that very reason. Since that time, the United States government does business with the Saudis. Netflix does business with Saudis.

Everyone, they've Saudis financed tons of movies. All these, I know I see them financing boxing matches and all these things. And none of these things won't issue until I went there. And why is that? As soon as a black man can make money off the plantation,

they try to tell you that the money is dirty. Well, okay, I'll go home and spend the money with actual slave owners on it. Where is this clean money you talk? But you said you hesitated for years to go. The years you didn't go.

So what made the difference for you? Time, time and circumstance. Time and the wheels of commerce kept turning.

“You know, if you want to be that pure about money,”

then stop driving your car, stop eating. Don't use your cell phone. Everything is tethered to something that's just terrible.

And I can make a million excuses or reasons to deprive that crowd of that show.

I'll government's going to ruin everything for us.

We'll never get to know each other.

If we just do everything that they want to do or function on the terms that they want to function. And we don't even really know what's going on. Not for sure. Artists have always made these decisions. I mean, they were this decisions in South Africa under apartheid.

You know, there were decisions about whether artists should go there or not go.

“And then the question is, are you validating the system?”

Are you resisting it with your presence? I mean, look. In the middle of apartheid, if I went and played some city, that's not a bad person. But if I went and played so well, though, why would I not do that? You know, OK, I give you another example. Not a good example.

I'm doing a show. There's a police officer killed a black person. And the black community asked me to cancel the show. We don't want artists to come. We want a boycott. Is that an Ohio? Was that in Cincinnati? Yeah, was it Cincinnati? Yeah.

And I respect the deal with you. But that's like, all we could have got together and talked about. You know, and I like, I mean, I'm a sound like doing that. But I do that often. When many apples was gone through it.

And maybe when they, I was in Paris when they killed Alex Predi. And then I booked the show in Minneapolis right after they killed that guy. Man, they got to need talk about this.

And that was never written another situation or a top market in Buffalo.

And killed like 10 black people. I'm provoked in a grocery store. They'd have been right after I got tackled in LA at the Hollywood Bowl. But man, I went to Buffalo.

“You know, it's not that I think that jokes help.”

But you can console certain communities with your presence or just acknowledging that you see them and that you heard with them. You feel like you're lancing the boil in a way for people or just what? Giving them a place to feel their feelings or... Okay, but one is mutual.

The top market they'll be so upsetting and I want to be there. You know, like I have a friend from Buffalo who's... That's their local grocery store and mother shops there. And I think God, she was all right.

But it just hits close to home.

But what about people who feel like you're punching down? Like you're not a trans person. And there are people who feel like... It's different when you are part of the group that has been attacked, hurt, demeaned, etc. And then if you're outside of the group and you're having commentary about it, it causes feelings.

And what do you say to people who feel that in some occasions you're punching down? Well, okay, this is a conversation there. You're bored by the check-off. Yeah, I'm sick of it. I don't want to be dismissive to that sentiment, but I don't know.

There's a tough one for me because so much of that was a media phenomenon. What was happening in actual life? Versus how the media was reporting on my show. And I feel like the way they were put on that show was rage-bading to some degree. And there's so many different branches to talk about it.

But I would say that not everything is for everybody. I don't tell country artists to sing about it. I'm not going to go see a country show. If they bought tickets ever, maybe I'd listen. I don't know.

There's never that. I don't even know who's telling my say these things. Hmm. Do you feel like your jokes are misrepresented? I think they're misrepresented.

For a purpose, which is to. It's almost what I was reporting was as it. They almost reported on it as if I was doing something other than a comedy show. Hmm. You know, I could go on and on about this.

Well, I gotta be honest. Interesting. So like I'm like you're saying, look, I'm a comedian. Everybody knows that I'm a comedian. So if you don't like my humor, don't buy a ticket.

Reading a joke is a lot different than sitting in a room. Hmm. And hearing it. And part of the sitting in the room part, part of one of the reasons comedy work is because everyone there bought a ticket.

Clearly, they wanted to work. They want to have a good time. They want to have fun. Hmm. But if you a person that is very angry or passionate about something

and you're afraid that you're going to be a misrepresented

“or misconstrued and you feel like you have to police comedy”

to get your point across. You should assess your point. I heard you say, Edger, when you receive the Mark Twain award,

Thank you.

I mean, it's really the highest recognition that this country

really gives somebody in your field. And one of the things that you said that struck me was that if you go to a comedy club somewhere in America, your feelings and thoughts are represented. Every of being has a chance.

And say more about that though. Why do you think that matters?

“Because it's important because every of being that you”

think of is championed in a room. I don't silence your champions. In fact, I make space for your champions to have a voice. But I'm not your champion. And I am someone else's.

You can't silence the team that you don't like what they're saying.

But you do have the opportunity to go on after them. Say your piece. You know, this is happening to me so many times. My career will go on and say something. I'm feeling way about it.

I don't think that they should be silent. But I can't wait to go put me up next. I'm going to have what I have to say. I got you know, I got you. And then afterwards we go upstairs.

We might talk shit. We, you know, we have fairly cordial.

“There's people who say things that don't like on time.”

I go to the kids' birthdays. I go to their finals. Like these are the comedians I came up with. And if I see these same people throughout my life, then clearly they're part of my community.

And everyone's in it. There's, you know, transcendent comedians. There's every sexuality, every kind of identity. And we support one another. You know, it was interesting though.

You know, we are in a time when I know you talked about comedians as being like the nation's kidney who process like all the things that people feel like all of it. Right? The president of the United States says everything. I mean, we are in a moment where the president of the United States expresses things in a way. It expresses things that many people find deeply offensive. He expresses them in a way in a way that many people find deeply offensive and hurtful.

“And I'm just wondering, does that change your work?”

Because it's one thing to be a person who articulates the rawness when the rest of the world is buttoned up. But what about when the rest of the world isn't buttoned up? And I just wonder if that changes things for you. And he's a bad example because he has a dismissive shorthand about people. Like a comedian who flipped it on.

It's a much, it's a way different type of interface than say being president of the States because. Oh, it's a totally different job. I credit that. But I'm saying, I'm talking about, I just think about the actual interface. How we actually are communicating to people.

Well, the president sees the presidency. If you vote for the person or not, that's your president. This is an authority figure. This is the top law enforcement agency, the top. He's the executive of all of America's affairs. And I just have to move my crowd.

You can opt out of my crowd. But you shouldn't have to leave America because the president's making the block too hot for you. And I did resent that the Republican Party ran on transgender jokes. I felt like they were doing a weaponized version of what I was doing. I didn't stop what I was doing at it.

I gave an example, as before I learned the phrase, I respectfully declined. And I was on Capitol Hill and everybody ran up to take pictures with me from every congressional office. And I just take pictures with whoever has. I didn't ask how they voted what their voting reckoned it. And everyone at first was like CBC people.

And then here comes the bomb bolt. And she said, I get a picture. And I already taken 40 pictures. I was saying no one for everybody, but I didn't know the phrase I respectfully declined. So I just took the picture.

And then she posted a picture before I could even get from there to the show and say something to the effect of just two people that knew that it's just two generations. She instantly like weaponized or politicized. So I got to the arena. And I lit her ass up for doing that.

And she should never do that personally.

But now she knows. Yeah, you do whatever it is you do, but don't give me out of the splash of your vote.

I've had people say this to me.

“Like I've interviewed people who said, what do you like about him?”

He's funny. Do you think he's funny? Maybe if he wasn't president. I think that was funny. Or maybe at times.

I mean, I do think, you know, that's weren't then. There are funny things about him. If I were to talk about him, I could, it would be funny. But I think what he does is so consequential.

And so much of these things, you know, in my lifetime, I've never really seen anything.

And I'm not quite like him. I'm not trying to be political, but it's remarkable. I don't know. I don't know how funny it is. Do you feel given the platform that you now have?

“And the fact that people seek you out, does that change your sense of responsibility for the work?”

No. No. No. For my work, no. I mean, listen, I could personally say, I don't want to ask a tough question.

There is a thing that happens when an artist gets bigger, the platform gets bigger. There's an expectation that you behave a certain way. And that's kind of the box that I fell for in Shappelle Show. That wasn't, I don't fall for it. But I was overwhelmed by that idea.

It's a lot of responsibility. But I've come to the understanding that, you know, you got to be true to your work. That's to job. And if that makes you big, so it'll be it. But then you don't.

But what happens is you get big and then you start being true to being big. And that's a mistake. State should do your work. Say what you have to say. If being big informs me in such a way that I feel like I don't want to step on any answer.

Any blades of grass and want to hurt anybody, then so be it. That's what I decide. But I have yet to make those types of decisions. I don't feel like anything I do is malicious or even harmful.

“And I think if I did hurt somebody with my word, what it would've been laid at my feet.”

I was just not doing that. If you feel like your life has had chapters or your career has had chapters. I mean, there was the chapter when you were trying to make it. And then there's the Chappelle Show chapter when you blew up and became like this big cultural figure. And then you took this break and kind of did your own thing.

You became known as the guy who walked away from $50 million.

It's like you got some of it later, I understand. But you know, there was that chapter where you took a break and kind of recalibrated yourself. What do you think this chapter is? What would you say this chapter is? Well, it's a good question.

Man, it's a really good question. Okay, for context, like I started doing stand-up when I was 14. So, okay, you think about it a couple of ways, right? Your evolution artistically, right? Your evolution professionally.

But also just your evolution is like a man. As a 14, as a funny 14 road, it's so much different than when I become. So much of that was because of life experiences. So, the chapter where I'm trying to make it, right, that early chapter, I'm in high school.

And then the first big hurdle is the decision to defer going to college.

I'm going to go to New York and try to, you know, so then there's like the New York years, right? And there's all the profession milestones and television deals and high hopes and heartbreaks and all that. And then, you know, you meet a girl and a fall in love and then, you know, we have kids and that move back to Ohio. And I wouldn't expect them to be, you know, there's all these personal. So, my favorite part of my evolution was when I quit.

And it was the hardest part. I mean, the quitting was one part of heart, but then the years after it was another kind of heart. But, but artistically, and as a guy, there's certain things that I became in that time that I love about myself. And I didn't realize until COVID when I was just sitting in the house, trapped with all my choices. And I said, these were not bad choices.

I'm just like, you know, could've been better, but boy, it could've been worse. I like my kids. I like my wife. I like what I live. I like my friends. I like my community. And I have records. Thank God. That was the best. The 2020 was the first time that I realized that that time had molded me into something that I love.

I feel like I'm paying my bills for that time of my life.

“Well, before you let you go, I noticed that you've been doing shows around the country.”

I know I went to the one in DC and you closed by telling your audiences to keep your wits about you. And you stay together. We'll stay sane together and take care of each other. That's right. And tell me why.

You kind of end with a group hug.

Because I feel like, you know, a lot of Americans that don't travel overseas don't really know what it feels like to be in America.

“You know, you could think you feel so much about somebody.”

But man, when Americans see each other overseas, we give each other like this fine club look. Especially if you overseas or an expert or something like that. There's something we know about the broth that living in this place feels like that only we really know. And at that time and even more so since that time that I did that set. Information and the types of things we're hearing every day in the news and seeing around us, it's almost like a psychological torture.

What we're collectively going through, the amount of animosity we have for one another. And the anger stoke.

“So that show that night. I think I said that because it did feel so good to be together.”

And because at that time the national goal I was in DC and there was a lot of like local uncertainty which I came this like, you know, my hometown is going through it. And then the joy and being together may get a fight for that to just sit in the room and not be afraid to get murdered by Charlie Kirk or or get, you know, stamp either or trample. It takes so much courage sometimes just to come see a show and they come and we're together. And I feel like the exercise that doing that shows like people actively trying to stay sane together.

Like let's just stay ahead and remember how good it feels to be together. Take care one another. Even a smile if that's all you can muster is charity but man, as much good will as you can put out the, it's, it's priceless right now. And it will get us through this time. It's just just terrible terrible weather, but, but you don't want you resolved to get so weak that you accept this time as a normal way of being and being together and laughing through things and all of all of these are active steps to healing and getting past it. So I promote that.

Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you for talking to me. For more NPR's newsmakers search for the show wherever you get podcasts or watch it on NPR's YouTube channel.

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Join NPR plus today to support our work and get perks from the podcasts you trust go to plus.npr.org. I'm Michelle Martin. Thanks for listening to up first from NPR.