The Man That Hacked NASA and Found UFOs [Interview w/ Gary McKinnon]

"I will need to pull back, less."

“"The biggest military computer hack in all time."”

"We talked about the case of computer hack, Gary McKinnon, on which the Prime Minister is expressed very clear views." "Oh, Mr. McKinnon, we have proceeded through all the processes required under our extradition agreements." "I'll just to go, normal guy, interested in your face,

happen to have some IT skills, nothing genius level." "All you hacked into the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Department of Defense, and NASA." "They wanted to put you in prison for 60 years, so..." "17." "For 70 years, and I bought potassium chloride,

I was just going to swallow it and have all the attacking done." "Oh my god." "Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes." "The reason that you are here today on this show is because what you found." "He found," he says, "photo-graphic proof of alien spacecraft,

“and the names and ranks of something he called non-terrestrial officers."”

"I was in my dressing gown, up to like for the morning, smoking weed, thinking beer, right of my life, really."

"The first one I looked was the one right saw the picture, and so I double-clicked this.

But it was very, very slow. I was on a 56-k, dial-up. And I just think, "My God, this is my eureka moment." "Then there's like slowly, I have this fear started appearing, and I'm thinking, fuck, that's a planet." "What the hell?"

"And then suddenly there's a big, straight, kind of silvery line." "The cigar-shaped object." "I see the mouseman who's in someone else's out of the computer themselves." "They've right-clinks, disconnect, and boom." "That was it."

"I was cut out." "What do you think?" "Fotographed." "Very good question."

“"This spreadsheet was titled non-terrestrial officers."”

"So, not on the earth, and that was incredible." "I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. I was suddenly working up by a really sharp pain that immediately I just went, and my left heel, there were two perfectly circular holes." "Wow, weird."

"Splame what's going on quickly?" "I can't turn my phone off. You can see my finger is on the power button, and both, this is like a hard reset."

"That's never happened before." "Absolutely, it's never happened before."

"But you'll with Gary McKinnon." "How is this possible?" "The existence cannot longer be denied." [MUSIC] Before we dive into the incredible story of Gary McKinnon,

I want to shine a light on one thing his story reminds you of instantly, online privacy. Gary is a brilliant self-taught hacker who pulled off what the Pentagon called, the biggest military computer hack of all time, all from a bedroom in London. In this interview, Gary goes into extreme detail about what he found in some of the world's

most sensitive files, and I still can't wrap my head around what you're about to hear. After hearing what he found, you might think he hit the ultimate UFO disclosure jackpot. However, the moment he went online, a digital trail started forming. Think about the moments most of us could get exposed. It won't look like Gary's story where he broke into sensitive government systems,

saw something truly unbelievable floating in space, and then had his access cutoff mid-session. For most of us, our risk exposure is usually much simpler, like joining hotel Wi-Fi, airport Wi-Fi, or even your office network. Going incognito doesn't hide your browser from the Wi-Fi owner,

and your internet service provider can just log what you do online. That's why I use ExpressVPN. It encrypts and rerouts my traffic through secure servers and masks my IP. I literally turned it on before doing sensitive research for the show. Like looking into weather mid-century scientists, Thomas Townsend Brown,

Cracked Anti-Rabby in the 1950s, that's exactly when I want my browsing to stay private. So if you're like me, and you like going down crazy rabbit holes, make sure your research isn't exposed on whatever Wi-Fi you're on. Thanks to our sponsor ExpressVPN, you can now get up to four extra months of your ExpressVPN service by clicking the link in the description below at ExpressVPN.com/AmericanAlchemy.

That's ExpressVPN.com/AmericanAlchemy. To get the privacy you deserve, thanks again to ExpressVPN for sponsoring today's historic episode, because if Gary's story teaches us anything, it's that you're online privacy matters.

Experiment, and it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication, and you know who is leading the whole project, my favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor, Thomas Townsend Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor

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to QUO.com/jesse. That's QUO.com/jesse. QUO. No mist calls, no mist customers. Now back to the show. This is such an honor. I am here with, uh, he's been at the top of my list of people I've wanted to interview for years now, and I'm so lucky to have this opportunity through James Fox, the great documentary, and Gary McKinnon. Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be here. I love your channel. I've had a long time subscriber. So yeah, I really like a lot of the interviews you do. I'm

glad to be here too. Let's just go back to the early 2000s, tell me the year and the day, and tell me about your life at the time, and then I want to get into the actual, you know, event. Okay.

“I can't remember the day, but the year was 2000s, early 2000s, and my life pre to that, I”

always had a deep interest in UFOs, mainly from my stepdad. He's still a little folk cook, which is

near Bonnie Bridge, which is in Scotland, just like a Scottish UFO hotspot, many, many sightings, almost like a tourist attraction, the people go there to see UFOs. And I have one sighting myself when I was about 12, and I was looking out of my bedroom window, and I saw this kind of ready Sharon's glowing light, and it was moving an arc from there to the horizon. And it was, um, but it was like brown in motion. It wasn't a straight line. It was like wiggling around, and just a

what an earth is that. And I was also a member of beforeah of the time, the British UFO research association. Yeah, I was hooked from an early age. And so I guess it only made sense that eventually

“I try and do something to further my own interest and find out more. Unfortunately, it involves”

break you a little. Sorry mom. So, so you already have an interest in UFOs. How do you see an UFO or like, you know, just one sighting? Just that one sighting. Okay, but I have my stepdad stories, hate seeing them, his brother, my step uncle would see them. Yeah, and so you have this personal interest. And then do you have like the hacking background or like, do you have any sort of like cyber background, or are you really good with computers? Um, no hacking background. I used

I was good with computers. I started off with Atari games console in like 78, 79. And then

eventually got the Atari computer learnt program in basic at first, and then machine code assembled

language moved up from that. And then eventually got jobs in computing. Very low level jobs to start off with, let work installation windows, configuration. Then did computer science degree, which I eventually failed because I spent too much time in the student bar. But yes, so eventually ended up contracting with a bank, it's quite high level stuff. But doing very basic, sort of networking stuff. So I had a good background in networking, especially windows,

knew how they communicated, and some line-ups, stroke you next to Laura, stuff like that. So when I mean, the internet came to Britain in '95, I think I first have the internet. And the first thing

and fast forward about five or six years. I read the disclosure project book,

“it's been great on his team. And they told you installations, locations,”

and I thought I've got to have a look at this. I wanted it from the horse's mouth. I didn't want to just believe, and I wanted to know. And so I thought I could use my basic networking skills. Just to do a scan, you know, a light scan on American military networks, which is mad now. But bad there, it was just kind of like a playful idea. And I wrote a pulse script, Pearl is a programming extraction reporting language, it's just a scripting language. And I could

run that across thousands of machines and minutes and find a blank passwords or passwords that were either blank or password, admin, a basic list. And when you do like wide-scale fishing like that, you do, you know, some fish bite. And that was my basic method to get the entrance to these places.

“And so some of these extremely sensitive American military sites had blank passwords.”

That's crazy. I mean, it echoed. Although that seems beyond belief, it also makes sense. Like the government's way more incompetent than often especially people in UFO world given them credit for it because we assume they have workable reverse engineered crafts that they know how to use at well or way. So like, you would, of course, would have password set up. But 2000 is early internet. We're still worried about why to K, you know. So like we didn't really

understand how a lot of this stuff worked. It was this big experiment. And so wow. So that sort of fishing thing came up with some fish. And as you said, the government really hasn't taken it for this, especially the military. They don't, well, they didn't let an employee specialise IT workers. They trade up existing military employees in the, you know, basic techniques to run a network. So the one involves security or where a guy is running government networks and literally networks.

“And are you, so while you're doing this, are you just like sitting in a apartment or something?”

It's a bit embarrassing. My girlfriend and I at the time, we were living in her auntie's house and the ground floor. And I was in my dressing gown up to like four in the morning smoking weed, thinking beer, just right of my life, wait, for a young-ish guy. I think I was 36 at the time. So I, you know, I don't think that's embarrassing for you. I think it's embarrassing for the sites you hacked into. Okay. So you're, you're getting a little late night buzz and you're,

you know, you're at your, your girlfriend's aunt's house. And you're just like, I want to find, I want to know from myself what's going on in UFO world. You do this blank password search. You actually come up with some results as far as sites that you can get into. What do you look at

first? Well, the first thing I had to do was test my method and so I did that on British sites,

and we're currently in Cambridge, home of the famous university. I had Cambridge's FTP server, file transfer, protocol server, and Oxford as well, and a couple of polytechnics at the time which had out universities. And I realized the technique, well, if you, if you cast far enough a wide net, you know, something's going to come in. And then I thought, okay, let's go for the locations. And my list of locations all came from the disclosure project book. And also,

there was, I forget the title of it. There was like a hacker's network document going around of a list of potential UFO secrecy sites. And I took some of the names from there. But all that told you was the network names, all the particular department of defense like sub-department that the own don't network. So I used a site at the time, which was called Nehe's IP index. And this guy done some work. He used like domain search tools and built a huge list of who owns what sub-nets.

So I could just grab a block, plug it into my script and scan like a quarter of a million computers

and eight minutes, typically 5% would respond. And then from that 5% a further 5% would have blank passwords. Okay, okay, got it. So you do this like narrowing process and you end up with what is it like 97 sites that you can get into or something like that? Yeah, that was the end result. Which is a lot of sites. And what do the sites include as far as acronyms that people would be familiar with, or program names, people would be familiar with. Okay, so NSA, I got into Fort

USF, USF Networks. Okay, wow. Yeah, there's some pretty intense organizations that at the

very least, we know, hold the keys to all sorts of military technology secrets that confer tactical advantage to the US. If not some of these deeper, you know, more interesting mysteries that, you know, you and I share an interest in. So what do you do next as far as your search and what do you find? Yeah, okay, so I'm one guy of got potentially thousands of IPs to search, the individual computers. I want you find a blank password and these are windows

“networks. You need to become the administrator, which is like, you know, the highest local account.”

And eventually, the domain administrator, which controls the entire network.

So once I was on one PC or a network, I'd then attack the domain server and get that password,

and that's through dictionary attacks, password cracking. I actually used a tool called loft crack. I don't know if that's in a round. And once I've done that, it's a huge job for one person, huge job. So I found a program called land search. This is all commercially off the shelf available software. And what land search enabled me to do was to type in search term and it would search every file and folder on all the local PCs that I had control of, which could be. I think the

largest I did was 5,000 at one time, which took hours, you know, the whole light. So yeah, that's how I, that was my system for making it doable for one person and literature. And also, it depends on your search terms. These files aren't going to be called UFO secrets. So I had to look for things

“like, you know, secret, top secret, just anything, just an PDF PDF documents, where particularly”

half of a lot of stuff was in PDF, and the redacting they did and PDFs back then was not fully adapted to get on reductum once you downloaded the file to your own PC. So it was a huge network wide document search and just grabbing what I could spending hours getting it, then spending hours reading it and throwing through. Are you, when you're spending hours reading it, is this like you backed this stuff up on a hard drive or is it just on your PC? Yeah, download this my PC.

Okay, so it's just on your PC. Wow. And so they're going through all this stuff. Were there any other things you saw that were interesting outside of, you know, we'll get to the crazy kind of UFO related stuff that you found. Was there anything else that you that you saw while

while searching through these documents? I was looking for free energy as well. I never found

anything to do with that. One thing I have to say, I never found anything to do with solar ward and solar warden is a huge rumor that was started by an anonymous poster on the above top secret forum. So there's no evidence for solar warden. And I have nothing to do with it, that never had a path from rumors pretending to myself. Yeah, for the audience, solar warden is has become associated with the sort of secret space program, Gaia, you know, people like

Corey Goode, you know, let's say that we have like a terrestrial, you know, we have like humans, like in like deep space right now and they engage in these like 20 years and back missions or whatever. And there's like a documentary on it. And it's like the it's the worst documentary I

“think I've ever seen. Oh, but it is. I believe in a secret space program, but I don't believe”

Corey Goode. Yeah, well, that's the thing. It's like pizza gate and Epstein. It's the best way to debunk the true or it at pre immunize the population from ever actually looking into the truth is to kind of you know, enoculate them, send out stuff that is directly adjacent to the truth, and then ensure that that gets debunk because it's so pre-emphasia ridiculous. Yeah, it's done that in so suddenly. Yeah, so yeah, so the fact that there's some sort of,

yeah, standard Intel techniques. So the fact that, you know, a blog and anonymous blog post, and then you have all these people kind of flooding the zone with secret space program stuff makes me think that there might actually be something next to that that might be the might be true. Yeah, that dovetails with what you did find. Anything else that you found that was interesting before the crazy stuff? Nothing to do with ET or anything like that, but it's very interesting.

What a one site, a found the jail as file. Every military base has a jailer and it's just crazy. You've got guys taking LSD, the work on submarines. Really? So lots of interesting human stories. Where they're taking LSD that work on submarines? Yeah, but yeah, because the soldiers,

the dead in drugs, they've got Los Angeles gangs bringing the drugs. And so that was interesting for human story. It's nothing to do with what we're here to discuss today,

but it's okay. Okay, that's fascinating. Okay, that's fascinating. I thought for a second,

you were talking about like, MKL, trip, mind control, like taking LSD at the bottom of submarines, and testing consciousness, okay, so just, you know, recreational, spice it up down there. Interesting. They're the nine to five, that's boring. Yeah. And so you're systematically, you're looking for UFOs, you're looking for free energy, any other like, you know, kind of terms that are on your mind in going into the search? No, that was my main focus.

And with UFOs, it was particularly the propulsion. What was interesting? It was the energy. The propulsion aliens didn't excite me so much, because I'm sure they exist, because it's a huge universe. But I want to something that could, the wicked use, you know, and I was convinced that it was secret technology, but it knew something about the populist at large,

“wasn't allowed to have access to. Yeah, well, I think you were, you were on to something, maybe,”

but in Britain at the time, we had old age pensioners can pay their fuel bills, and energy was a really sad story for a lot of people. So to have something that was free, yeah, and yeah, it was just too juicy, not to have a good finding. Yeah, I mean, it would be hugely disruptive to establishment institutions. You know, if, you know, our energy prices dropped from, you know, 50 bucks per kilowatt hour to like, 50 cents per kilowatt hour, that would be hugely

disruptive, it just would. I think, um, it's a control mechanism, isn't it? And as well, just like water is starting to be food has been for a while. Yeah, anything that scares and can be accrued at the top, I think, is totally a control mechanism. And yeah, anybody who doesn't

think that, you know, having access to a critical threshold of oil has not determined American foreign

policy over the last 70 years is nuts. Like, you know, I mean, you see it with Maduro, in Venezuela, and then, you know, worries about what's going on in Iran, visa V, that, you know, and so, and like it's all, you know, very, you know, obviously interconnected. It means desert storm in the early 90s was basically pulled off because Saddam Hussein and overtaking Kuwait, controlled the fifth of the world's oil supply, and that was just unacceptable. Yeah, one thing about

Venezuela was it wasn't just, um, America's domestic supply, it was more foreign power skicker.

“China was about to do a deal with Venezuela. That's right. I think we don't need a mountain,”

I want a 2% of China's impulse, but it's still something. From Biberba Flaute, they showed an anti-gum anti-gum anti-gum. That's Nerf, and it's still a lot to Toyota. Stop, ask that they're recruiting spirals. With Stepstone all jobs, they've become all anti-gum for a year, in a package to a fixed price. So far, they're about 75% cost-probeverbal, and they're every time flexible.

Now, let's start with Stepstone, the A/All jobs. Stepstone, actually, the real talent is for all jobs. Yeah, still something. They're sitting on a lot of oil there, and you see this, like, these crazy sort of game theory dynamics, we see, we try to take in place with Greenland and other places. So it all cuts to these. And if you look at, like, why do US had to back down off this recent,

you know, trade agreement deal with with China and kind of concede some things. It was due to a rare earth refinement being basically monopoly in China. And so, you know, these things are like very real things geopolitically.

“And so if I agree with you, I think it's very interesting if there's any sort of novel”

exotic physics that's stuck in a compartment in the government, you know, that I'd like to know as well. And I even think they're probably interesting ways to use it geopolitically. If you have it, where it's like, it's some sort of carrot for like, okay, maybe you don't give it to like, you know, gross dictators or whatever, but it's like a way to like incentivize reform or I don't know. But like, just keeping it to yourself. That seems

wrong, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. For your wife, it's a real hard lot to walk, isn't it? How do you have that public for you, but not public for other countries, because you have spies and? Totally. And there there are dual use implications for a lot of things. So like a good example would be, you know, controlled fusion or whatever would, you know, is the really positive, you know, use of nuclear fusion, which would allow for, you know, sort of free energy if you have

over unity. But then, you know, fusion also creates a hydrogen bomb, right? And so, so like, you never

know, like, if you had some free energy device that you were putting in a compartment or something, if that also allowed a kid in his bedroom to blow up the world, like you do have to like do

But yeah, play. Talks about, yeah, MH370, they're like, these like orbs wrapping around the plane, and then it's absolute. And he's like sure that there's like free energy, like, you know, being held by. The most fascinating thing about that was where's the provenance for that video?

Yeah, I love it being shown. It's never been. Yeah, we don't know. Yeah, yeah. But um, okay, so what

do you find next? So there was a special witness first in Greece disclosure project called Donaheir and she said that when she worked, she was pretty hard. She was a, a nasa launch photographic

“specialist. I think she had secret clearance because she'd get, you know, very close up photos of”

all the mechanics and engineering and stuff and launches and the launch platform under the launch platform. And she said that she worked in building eight of Johnson Space Center, JSC and the her colleague who worked across the corridor and this is all something he shouldn't have done. Because they chatted, you know, had lunch together or whatever. And he one day he just back into across the corridor and said, come and take a look at this. And this is the days of

Adelog photography. And so he's got, you know, big, like contact sheets and slides and you to be developed under red light and silver nitri. And he says, what do you think this is? And there's a huge white disc of this satellite photo of the earth. And she being a photographic expert as tell us. And oh, it's just a blob in the emulsion, you know, the old capital of the the sheets. And then he's grinning and he says, dots on the emulsion, don't leave round shadows on

the ground. And there was a round shadow at the right angle at the correct angle, the sun shining on the trees, I saw pine trees. I didn't see a coastline. I don't know where this was. But I looked at him and I was pretty startled because I'd worked out there several years

“and never seen anything like this, never heard of anything like this. And I said, is this a UFO?”

And he's smiling at me and he says, I can't tell you that. So I said, what are you going to do

with this information? And he said, well, we always have to airbrush him out before we sell him to

the public. Because they sell on the imagery to like colleges, universities, you know, earth shots and magnificent scenes from space. So yeah, his job was to block this stuff out and make sure I'm guessing. And they didn't have Photoshop there. And so I'm not sure. I think, you know, the airbrush term literally comes from a physical airbrush on the emulsion, whether just blur things. And you see lots of examples on this of like lunar photography from Clementine Mission,

the lunar orbiter, L.A. Rose, the recorder's an orbiter. So I read this story, absolutely fascinated. He was just hardly qualified. We'll learn. She'd worked for a long time,

“NASA. And I think the air force previously to that. And indeed, she said this, she said it flying”

saucer. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She and she said so that shape, the circular shape. Yeah, and the shadow. Okay. Wow. And I was already in just a Johnson Space Centre at the time. So I thought building eight. Okay. I wonder if that's still running. Because she worked there and I think the late eighties or the early nineties. So you're in the Johnson Space Centre files on your PC. Yeah, I was really loud when I read that. Okay. Yeah. So I thought, I've got to have a look. Yeah. I've got to have a look.

I thought, how the hell do I find building eight? But luckily Windows has you can do network commands in a console rather than a GUI or the mouse. And you can type it like NetStat, network status tells all the people connected to the machine. And there's other commands whereby NASA are great auditors of their system. So they have these special commands for auditing. Where you see the machine, the PC, the number, the serial number, the date when it was

last maintained, all stuff like that. And the building itself. So I ran those commands that produced a list. And I stripped out, I think it was about 1500 machines or maybe 150 machines. But once I stripped out the building eight machines, there was only like a dozen, maybe. And I ran the black

password script on them and I think about half of them, real accessible. And the first one I looked

out was the one where I saw the picture. And the strange it was, um, I did a lot of network support before that as well. And most users, desktops are coughing in stuff, shortcard, CMLs, like, and electronic post-it notes. And these were very bare desktops. All the hands like her two folders roar and process, maybe a couple other shortcards. Um, so I thought, I've got to look at this.

process. And I double clicked into the folders. And it's a proprietary nasa image format that I

can't run. Am I dust, not a JPEG, not a PNG. Um, so what I had to do was basically,

there was a, one was a code. There was, uh, there was a, there was a, I basically had to run nasa software. I had to double click on the desktop because my hacking method, although I'd get in over the blank password, which was CLI, command line. Um, once I was in there, I was using

“remotely anywhere, I think it's still exists. It's like PC anywhere. It's like you're sitting”

on the desktop. You can see the screen on your screen. And, um, so I double clicked this, but it was very, very slow. I was on a 56K dial-up, which was, um, to give some idea of the speed. It was, if he download an MP3 reading file now, you've got it in a few seconds. Then it was five minutes per megabyte. And a song might be three megabytes. And 50 minutes for one song. No one would even accept that now. So I double clicked this. It was taken ages. I canceled it. I turned

down my remote graphical remote control thing into like eight big color, then four big color,

eventually I thought, yeah, I think four big color or two big color. It was basically four or five

different colors. That was a shitty image. And, um, but it came on the screen. Like, you know, almost live. Well, I think a few lines at a time. So it was coming in blocks. And I'm looking

“and there's like blackness. Then there's like slowly, I have this fear started appearing.”

And I'm thinking, fuck, that's a planet. But there. This could be what she said. And the atmosphere comes into view. It's very blocky, but it's kind of blue white. Some thinking it must be. Uh, and then suddenly there's a big, straight kind of so heavy line. Let's come in down. Then that's, I guess what they now call a TikTok. But if what we use to call cigar shaped object. And this thing was, admittedly, it's low resolution. It's coming down slowly.

But this thing looked very kind of smooth on the outside. There was low lines, whether we'd be like plates, fixed or screws and bolts and stuff. And I just think, my God, this might you reek a moment, you know, confirmed, don't have a story. No, that don't have a story needs confirming. Um, yeah, and it got to, I got the whole ship, you know, in view. And then it's started to go below that where I'm soon arrested. The, um, the sphere of the earth, I see him as

the earth. And, um, it was just amazing. The only man made, possibly man made things that was there.

It was like geodesic domes like radar stations, uh, one on top below and both sides, not the worst stage is kind of man made looking, but not man made looking. And then, I've got graphical mode control. I see the mouse me, someone else, the person, someone else is out the computer themselves. And they're moving the mouse. They've right clicked on the local area network. I got, you know, right next to your clock and the bottom right of your windows

to us. But disconnect, boom. That was it. Come. I was cut out. And I was sitting there like waiting. I'm all my god. But you went for my re-commode. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Oh my god. Anything else on the cigar? So smooth, no, but doesn't seem like rivets or seams. It's hovering above the earth. Do you notice anything else? No, just like a very smooth cylinder. The geodesic domes. And so the little dome, dome on top, dome on bottom. Yeah,

and other end. No. And on either end. Yeah. So that could just be the kind of cigar. Sure. Do you like the closure of the cylinder? Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. So interesting. And did you ever speak with, you know, yourself or through intermediaries

“with Donna here? Oh, yeah. And did she say that's the disk that I saw. And I just, because I think”

of disk with her and then cigar, tick-tack with you. Yeah. She's still that one photo of disk. But she also spoke to um, okay. So these are probably different images. You're just confirming that the same building probably has a whole lot of images that they're sitting on. Yeah. Even though when we tell her 20 years later, apparently this is still the place where those images. Yeah. Yeah. UFOs are exalted crawl for the big, almost enough. It is proof that at least it, I mean, it's really interesting

that you have a whistleblower come out with nobody has any evidence for her claims at this point. And she says, you know, this is where we processed the images. I was showing this image, building eight, Johnson Space Center. You independently, you know, halfway across the world, hack into Johnson Space Center. Look at building eight. And then one of the first things that pops up on your screen is an image of a UFO, hovering above the earth, which is clearly not the

It wasn't ISS. It was like a space lab. Well, it doesn't sound like a satellite to me. It's cigar,

like rotating around here. There's no antennae either. There's nothing, no like telemetry, sensor looking stuff. It doesn't. Yeah. That is wildly. I mean, and then also now we have the lucky hindsight, you know, in in in 2026 of Commander David Fraver's experience of 2004, just a few years later off the coast of San Diego, where he sees a tech tech object. Yeah. And they have, you know, apparently radar. We've seen the flea imaging, the thermal imaging of this thing.

It's for everyone to see the Pentagon has verified that that's real. All four of us, because we were in F18F, so we had pilots in Wizzow in the back seat, looked down a small saw white tech tech object with a longitudinal access pointing north south and moving very abruptly over the water, like a ping pong ball. It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingman roughly 8,000 feet above us, lost contact also. And then you have a lot of other witnesses.

You have his co-bilot. You have another plane and two pilots in that plane. You have, you know,

a whole lot of you have the obviously radar. Some guys on the ship exactly. So are you the first

“like other? I mean, I believe there's some other tech tech in cigar. Like there's, you know,”

I think flying, they're, they're air force documents from the late 40s that describe a flying between tanks. I don't know if you know about this. Yeah. David Gresh, you famous UFO whistleblower has talked about this. And then in Robert Hastings, great book, UFOs and Nucs, which talks about UFOs showing up at nuclear installations all over the world, including in the UK, actually at Randall-Shem Forest in 1980, really famous case. He talks about take tax or cigar-shaped

objects, often being sort of like a mothership, and saucers flying out of the take tax. Yeah, I think that was it mail, mail strum, I have been America as well, similar thing happened. Yeah, like they're definitely a mothership kind of configuration. Yeah, no, Tutt's Hon is happened at Malmstrom, actually. So it's definitely likely that in certain cases, some sort of ticked. Because the tick-tacker cigar is one of the most common descriptions,

people out. There's a case we were just talking earlier, you know, thank you James Vox, great documentarian for the intro to Gary. It's a great guy. And we were saying that he sort of single-handedly resuscitated this obscure Brazilian UFO crash in 1996, the Varginia case, and there's a guy, Carlos DeSosa, who's an ultra-light pilot, geography teacher, who literally saw the crash, and he felt the material, just like in Roswell, a Jesse Marcel, it feels the material, and it

feels like, you know, a memory metal. I can see quite a few pieces of debris on the ground, and I picked them up, and it was kind of curved. And then I was surprised to see how light it was. So I said, "I'll keep it." And so I crunched it up. And so I made this kind of movement, you know,

“to put it in my pocket. And what happened was this foil or this sheet regained its shape?”

So I thought, "What is this?" I was completely floored. Yeah, it's wrong back into its original shape, and guess what the shape of the craft was that he saw that crash. Right, so... cigar, tic-tac, yeah. So, yeah, lots of us, the qualities there.

What was your first instinct when you saw it? How did you feel? And what did you think?

You know, often I think, like, if you're taking like a multiple choice test, it's like your first instinct's often right, you know, and then you second guess yourself. So, did you have like an on the spot interpretation? I'm not an aeronautic expert or a space vehicle expert, but to me, you know, I watched space stuff with interest and so on as a kid. And it wasn't, you know, more space stuff. So I knew that. But there wasn't, you know, I didn't know if it was extra

trust, you know, yeah, still don't, obviously. You know, it could be something man-made. But it was definitely something secret, because it was nothing like like we already have of that. Dendi, did you have any sort of like instinct of, I mean, that obvious question is like, is it ours or is it theirs? Yeah, you know, a big distinction. Well, I think because of Don

“has story, my instinct was that, yeah, it was alien, because that's what she described. She described”

unknown things in high-res, as a satellite imagery, that they had to airbrush out because I'd know maybe the thought it would panic the public or their no explanation for it. And what is she said, as far as why they airbrushed it out and didn't just admit, you know, yeah, we're surrounded by these cool exotic objects. Yeah, we shared a few emails. She's passed now, unfortunately, got into the cell. We had one, I think it was like two and a

that a lot has been hidden. It's been hidden from reasons of control. But it's where when you

try and extrapolate from this, you think, well, when you use technology like that in a war, if you had what you use it openly to your advantage or to me, that tells me that it's still unknown,

“even to the people of the highest authority on that subject. I think that's right. If it's not”

well known, and it's flying with impunity over our nuclear sites and insensitive airspace and in space, next to, you know, our recon satellites and stuff, you would be extremely embarrassed to, you wouldn't be able to admit, you know, but if you did know what was going on, you would just tell the public, yeah, we're not only doing what's going on, but then you try to signal that you know what's

going on and you've like reverse engineered it because you'd want to, you know, kind of soften,

you know, the enemy sort of thing. And so I actually think some of modern disclosure might be, you know, Intel tactics to try to, like, say that we know more than we do, but also recruit on the topic because like, actually, they don't really know what's going on. Yeah, you're absolutely right, embarrassment is a huge factor. Yeah, even just my hacking wasn't embarrassment. So if they're embarrassed about something like that, can you imagine? Yeah, I mean, it's just indeterminable, is it's hugely different.

I know it's so fair because we're white, you know, are they here? Yeah, what they do and why they're interested in nuclear missiles? Is it for protection of ours? Is it that we destabilise

some kind of interdimensional thing? Oh, yeah, you know, we're fucking with atoms. Did you get the

session, right? We are. We're doing a lot. Genetics, atoms, bio warfare. So when you saw this thing, did you get the sense that it was moving in a predictable orbit? I mean, it's a static image. So you have no way of knowing, but did you get the sense that it was like moving in an orbit or that it was like just kind of maneuvering around? Well, I'll see photos of the O level of orbit stuff. And this looked to be maybe, I mean, I have no idea of the scale of this thing.

But with the hemisphere, it was way beyond lower for that. Okay, I don't know, I mean, you know, there's actually a weeky leaks email with John Podesta on it that's been deleted from the internet,

“but still if you go on the way back machine, I think there's some like reddit forms that”

discuss this. It definitely a really email. And he is talking with kind of a contractor from some aerospace corporation, I think in California. And he mentions that the contractor, I think the guy's name is Bob Fish, said they're having lunch together. And this is him recalling it in the email. And Fish says, yeah, we spotted some fast walkers today. And they were, I think this was in specific reference to the DSP, the Defense Support Program, which I think is this very deep geostationary

kind of recon thing that the Air Force does. This was the Air Force at the time because now Space Force would do it, you know, post 2019. But I wonder if you saw a fast walker. Because also if you tried to FOIA, fast walkers, which John Greenwall did, the Space Force gets back and says, we, you know, clearly there are some records, but we can't, we can't talk about them. Yeah. Yeah, we'll see a FOIA to do it fast walkers as well. Maybe, maybe, yeah, it might be the CIA, actually, might not even be

Space Force, I might be getting that wrong. But yeah, interesting. But I guess one question would be like,

“was it lateral to the, like, was it moving, yeah, lateral to the air? Because I think it wouldn't”

make sense to me if it was like vertical to the earth, like if the, if the, if the butt was facing the earth, I'd be like, that doesn't feel like an orbit, like it's in a predictable orbit, you know what I mean? Yeah, it was definitely, it was lateral. It was at 90. Yeah. So that, yeah, it's, it's horizontal the horizontal, exactly. I wasn't seeing it, and don't see why it wasn't a physician to be rotating around possibly an orbit, or just traveling past. Yeah, or yeah, okay. Yeah, so it wouldn't be,

it wasn't like going directly at the earth. It was like moving laterally. Someone, okay. So interesting. Any other detail? I guess you could, you don't, you don't know color, right? Because it's silvery white. I mean, it was very, that was in, like, I think, two-bit color. Okay. But, or maybe four, then, but yeah, it was very kind of block-inned. But it's definitely white. It's still very white. Mm-hmm. And did you see any sort of, I guess, I don't know how you'd see a shadow, but, like,

What do you think photographed it? Very good question. Yeah. Now, yeah, so this takes me to,

I referenced the disclosure project a lot, because that was the root of a lot of my locations and research. Yeah. And, um, one of their witnesses, I forget his name, he was DIA, and he got a lot of the information to do with the satellites. And he, he was the one that said, most of these satellites, so actually pointed out, but it's, and they're not, like, lower thought about communication satellites. So I assume, if you've got very far out of satellites,

“looking out, but you can also rotate them. Yeah, and look inwards. So that's the only thing I could”

think of. Okay. So that is fascinating. You see that. How are you feeling when you see that? Oh, man. I was ready to inform the press. Tell the world, oh my god, like it's true, and doesn't know who's and doesn't have no for ages and don't know how it was right. And for them, pump disconnected. As it's loading. Yeah. So it hasn't even fully loaded. I saw, like, just under the bottom of half of the ship. Yeah. And, um, yeah, then disconnect. And you have no reason to lie about this.

You've never made any money off of this, right? And if anything, you were kind of, you put on a

witch trial. Like, there's sort of this witch hunt for, like, 20 years where this, like, you know, blanket extradition was attempted to be applied to you, where they wanted to put you in present for 60 years. So 70, for 70 years. Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes. On his visit to the

“Hoi Test, David Cameron spoke to President Obama about the case, and also agreed that he could”

find out appropriate solution. We talked about the case of Computer Hacker, Gary McKinnon, which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. You said you would work together to find a solution. So have you found one? Well, on Mr. McKinnon, we have proceeded through all the, uh, the processes required under our extradition agreements. It is now in the hands of the British legal system. We have confidence in the British legal system coming to a just conclusion. And so

we await resolution and we'll be respectful of that process. Well, we had talks and they said, look, if we just come along, don't fight it. You do between 1820. Well, like, that's a good deal. Thank you, I'll fight it. Um, and yeah, that was actually horrible. It is very depressing. I found out my own government because governments have made up of individuals and individuals have ties to other individuals in the DOJ and the CBS. Some of them wanted me gone too. Just as a favor to the

US, not because of anything to do with right or wrong or truth or justice. Just as a favor, political port. Um, so that was awful, not just for me, my family, you know, your mom and dad and it's like, uh, where there's some allegations of a meeting that was had at the American embassy out here where it was like, we want his head or something like it was very extreme language years. Yeah, Ed Gibson, who was attached to the US Embassy in London at the time met with my lawyer and he said,

"We want to see him fry electric chair reference." Jesus Christ. When she told me that, Karen,

amazing lawyer. I stubborn as all three of those and four and four and four. Yeah, I was just,

I mean, we already knew they played dirt. Because I mean, people have to realize, you know, politics isn't about people being safe from well-of-targeters, about the state, the further it's of the state and it's objective and the protectors, the protection of your state to phone state. So yeah, no, that is definitely the lay of the land as his national security. And, uh, you know, I just find it, I find it interesting that, okay, you have guys like Snowden and

a Sun, where wherever you lie with them, which, like, whether you think they're courageous and ideological in a way that really, you know, exposed all sorts of, you know, uh, issues within to Intel world and master valence and stuff, or whether you think they put, like, you know,

“Americans abroad and danger or whatever, which I think there are, like, there is some nuance there,”

like, I do think some people in the Intel world who talk about this say, well, there are some real, like, bad effects around around the stuff. And as long as it's defense, he had lots of phone calls before release information. So he actually agreed it with people in the state department. I didn't know that. That's, yeah, well, there you go. Yeah. But, but, but, oh, it's just getting to the point of whatever you think of those cases, like maybe there's some, you know, like, a more gray area or

debate to be had or whatever. In your case, you're just, you're smoking weed in your girlfriend's ants, little flat. And it's like 4 a.m. and you're just like a dude who's interested in UFOs since

like, get your shit together. It should, it should be, you know, it's almost like they might have

lashed out so much at you because they were impaired. I mean, it's on you. It's not on this, like, or English citizen who has no clear, like, I don't, I don't think you're, like, particularly ideologically set and, like, destroying America. You know, it's nothing though. I love it. Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, well, we'll get to that kind of more meta conversation, but you also found some other pretty crazy things while you were, while you were

searching in your girlfriend's ants flat. And so, yeah, what else did you, what else did you find besides

“this TikTok? I think, I was on a Navy system at the time. I can't remember. Cloud and weed.”

It's actually, but, um, there was a spreadsheet, excels spreadsheet. And it was cool, because I was saying earlier about my search terms. It was UFO, ZT, terrestrial, and anything spacecraft, anything I could think of, which probably wouldn't be in the title of the document. But, um, this spreadsheet was titled non terrestrial officers. So, not on the earth, which isn't necessarily alien. It could just mean space-based marines or, yeah, sequence-based force. Um, and that was

incredible. It had ship names. It had, um, material, the military, the military, spotting,

not material. Um, and it was transfers of weird chemicals like believed in them and other weird things that are to pronounce, uh, ship to ship transfers and fleet to fleet transfers. And at the time, I looked up the ship names thinking U.S. Navy must be boats, nothing, and I'm saying nothing.

“What do you remember that names are the people? No, I don't remember any of the names of the people,”

but there were a long list, you know. I think it was just a initial surname. I don't think it was the first names. Um, and the ship names, I was expecting like USS Lincoln, or, you know,

Navy ships, but there was none of that. Everything I, it wasn't Google at the time, I think it was

old to vista when the biggest search engine at the time. Um, not none of it was sea going vessels. So you see a list of non-terrestrial officers, and then you also see chemicals, be, what are the names of these chemicals? Uh, believed in them, um, barium, something was in there. Hmm, they were very exotic. So, um, what does that imply? Do you remember the exact, so, what is, what is, have you looked up what the uses are of this? Yeah, I remember,

I mean, I can't say now. I'm a lead to them. Um, they're very exotic. The used in like, uh, magnetics, um, lots of very kind of exotic industrial processes. A lot, a lot to do with metal hardening for a memory like metallurgy. Um, like you make an alloy and it makes it stronger than the original to components. So again, that time, now years later, with the resource, you do other people you've interviewed. It's all making more sense, especially when we come to the biofield,

brown stuff and die metrics. Hmm. Yeah, we'll get to that. And like nano-deposition of thin layer materials. Yes, yeah, thinly layered thinner than a, uh, you know, a human hair or whatever, micron layered. Yeah, this one sample is engineered in layers thinner than microns through a process unknown on earth. And for a purpose, we can only guess multi-layered business and magnesium sample, business layers less than a human hair, supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced

aerospace vehicle, nowhere could be fine any evidence that anybody ever made one of these. Okay, this is fascinating though. So you see a list of how many non-terrestrial officers? Oh, man.

“So my screen at the time was the old, like 800 by 600 monitors. I think I might have a 1024”

by 768 resolution at the time. So your typical Excel spreadsheet without zooming in when you just loaded up was probably 24 lines. And I think of as about one and a half or two pages. So maybe like 30, 40 names. You know, I remember any of the last names. Sorry. You're killing me. Yeah, yeah, you had to give us a little breadcrum. Yeah. Yeah, this is one of the main, like criticisms of me. Why didn't you take a bloody screenshot? Just a whole print screen, but I did actually

downloaded the Excel spreadsheet. Uh-huh. I what I got arrested. All my data was taken to ONI, Office of Naval Intelligence. So they still have my own drives. I've tried to get them back for years.

Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S. I think it's 1882. And it's often

“deeply implicated in UFOs. 1882. So the National Security Act, which created the CIA,”

was 1947. And, um, you know, and then you had the OSS before that, which was kind of this wartime foreign intelligence effort. Yeah. But, you know, Office of Naval Intelligence well predates all of that. And you had Thomas Townsend Brown doing a lot of spooky science work for the Navy. Uh-huh. And, uh, yeah. And then you have this guy Harold Malmgren who kind of ended up giving me kind of a turned into kind of a deathbed confession at the end of his life. And it, uh, was wild. I mean,

he was like the Office of Naval Intelligence knows the most about this issue. And once you go in that door, the door shuts. And he can't get let out. Well, is that one of the naval intelligence are going to be around asking your questions about your study? They're going to get curious. And if they talk to you for any legs of time, those they hardly shouldn't. You really know a lot.

“They're going to offer you a special access. It's how they operate. I said, what does that mean?”

You'll open the doors. You'll have full entry. The doors will shut and you'll be no exit the rush to your life. That is a closed system. And he kind of implied that they approached him in certain cases. And because of the fact that it was this closed system, he didn't want to engage. Wow. So, very interesting. So, so they end up with your stuff. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, they were one of the British police at the time was the NHTC U National Highside Crime Unit in the UK.

At first they said, oh, you'll get six months. It's a computer machine sack 1995 in Britain.

Six months, a community service, no time. And then they went to America and visited O and I and other top brass. And when they came back, the tone and totally changed. That was really serious. Which of course, eventually turned into facing 70 years in prison. So, it was a huge use of hammer to crack a nut. It was, you know, David Goliath, the whole thing. So wild. Yeah, it was huge. Like he said, oh, I was just a guy, normal guy, interesting UFOs. Happened to have some IT skills,

little bit of hacking, black parts was nothing genius level. And then texting it, oh, we're just blows up. Try to make an example of you. So, so, so when you think about those chemicals, and, you know, we're we'll get into our mutual interest in Thomas Townsend Brown and Antigravity Experiments. So, you think that they could have been used to create special alloys or what you might call metameterials in UFO world, which allow for greater thrust in these Antigravity experiments.

Like one thing that is true about the biofield brown effect in this Antigravity experiment is that if you use an insulator in the middle that is considered a high K-direlectric, which means it stores and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism, a lot of electricity, it stores electric fields in it, specifically. The thrust you see in the experiment is much greater from the negative electrode to the positive electrode. So, do you think that, you know, I guess barium is actually

in Townsend Brown's documents. Like he talks about it all the time. He talks about it all the time. Tonight he's talking to the time tonight. Exactly. Yeah. So, and then what was the other

I can never been out of? Believe, didn't it? Believe, didn't it? And you looked into that and that's

for creating alloys. Yeah, I think it's a strength thing. I've always been a long time since I

“looked into it, but I think that's what it was. It was like a strength thing alloys. Any other”

chemicals? It might even have a shielding. Not gravitational shielding, but like radiation shielding or something. I think maybe similar to that, but I'm not a physicist, so don't quote me. But it's super interesting if it's used on like current space vehicles, like people should go out and look that up because if it is, you know, that might be an interesting way to do some pipes and such. Yeah. Yeah. Any other chemicals? Believe, demand, barium. Strontium. Strontium. Yes.

Strontium. And Strontium is also mentioned in Brown's stuff, I believe, for coming over on the others. Okay. But it's in Strontium. I believe it's one of Gary Nolan's pieces that he has at the, you know, Stanford lab that he thinks might be, you know, UFO meta materials that come from crashes. I believe that's Strontium in it. Yeah, it's a good dialectic. I forget it's K constant, but I know it's high. So it's also a high-k dialectic.

Yeah. This is crazy. See, you have a list of non-terrestrial officers. Yeah. Yeah. So

a, it was one special, but it had taps. Mm. So that was the officer's names. Mm. There was

“ship names and there was material, a material transfer. Do you remember the ship names? No.”

Okay. But what, okay, what, when you're looking at this, what is your instinct as to like, because there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have, you know, people make up the secret space program, solar warden stuff. What was your, your in the moment? What are you thinking when you see this? Well, that's exactly why I was. Imagine you were me, UFO guy, you know,

quite an active interest. And then finding this. And so obviously that's where my first thoughts

go. So I'm thinking non-terrestrial officers. That's a baseline for the whole document. So the non- Earth, but I was thinking, well, they could be, they're probably, it's probably people. They're not non-terrestrial because they're not human, they're non-terrestrial because it's non- Earth based, so it's out of space. So space force was my first thought. It's going to be a space force, uh, obviously secret. Um, and then with the chemicals and stuff and the ship

claims, then and fleet to fleet transfers, and there's more than one ship, and then exotic materials. And so, you know, it's kind of two plus two equals four. Yeah, obviously it's to do with my mindset.

“That's what I was looking for, so that's how I interpreted it. Well, you know what I would do. If I was”

officer of Naval Intelligence and I hated Gary McKinnon, you know what I would do. I'd make up some BS secret space program called Solar Warden, send people down the wrong trail. When actually I do have real, you know, deep space fleets and transfers. So there's the, so but I'm sure the warden did come off to me. So yeah, it is. So it's a bit, but like I'm still trying to get to the, so the trend, what do you think that fleet to fleet transfer of what of people? I think of the materials.

Because first you have the people, then you have the ships, then you have the chemicals. Okay, metal elements. Okay. And do we think that the material is being transferred between human? Do we don't think that the materials being transferred between extra terrestrial and humans? Do we or do we think the materials being transferred between humans? I think, yeah, ship to ship.

“So I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics train. Like a supply chain and space or something?”

Yeah, yeah, just to base it, because you're the always all about more delay via whatever,

it's all about logistics. Right. And a lot of these materials, if they are layered extremely thinly, and you have kind of a tomaclayered deposition style stuff, we know that manufacturing and space and in zero g environments allows you. So a lot of these materials that go, it looks like it was built in zero g, like this is so crazy. No, so like maybe they built it in zero g, and then they're like conflating it with the UFO stuff, which actually just shows up around nukes and in other contexts,

or whatever, but like they might have built it in zero g. Yeah. Yeah, that's the old Kevin's ways of explanation is not the simplest. Okay. So there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't make physically impossible enough. It on earth. Yes. That's fascinating. I don't think has anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this, like we're doing now, or this is fascinating. I love this. This is fascinating

because I mean that makes sense. That makes sense. Like the other stuff doesn't make sense. Maybe it's sending people 20 in back into through the sun and do a portal, or maybe that's possible. I don't know. Yeah. But super souls is almost no. Yeah, super soldiers aren't. I just we need more evidence if I have all entertained, you know, whatever, but you need evidence. You know, you can't, you can't just, yeah. All of my patrol stories. Yeah. But this is fascinating. Okay.

So you either it's like a space supply chain, logistics, it's like a space factory, essentially, where they're creating these meta materials that you can't make on earth and you need deep space to create them. Yeah. And then so the non-terrestrial officers would just be humans overseeing

this supply chain, the space supply chain. It cooks, I've never even saw it in that way before.

Oh, this is fascinating. And what's ironic is that they're probably making space travel that much easier by creating these hydroelectrics, which involve greater thrust in the bio-filled brown effect. Yeah. Because they're like baking like, you know, their own program more powerful with the fit. Oh, this is fascinating. Mmm. Wow. All right. I like that. I like discovery as we go. Yeah. I mean, who knows? But like that makes sense. It is speculation, but it

the idea that we have people in deep space or we have like literal alien like men in black style,

They were like, you're a non-terrestrial officer or whatever. That makes less sense. Both of those make less sense. Just don't look at his huge, almost shaped eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He'll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally. But like, you know, it's like that we're stuck between those two options. Like that. Or, you know, it's like aliens in like, you know, military guard, or, you know, you know, literally humans that we've spent that we've sent into like super deep space

or whatever. Oh, I've never believed any of the stories of any in contact with governments.

“Well, I think it's just out of love this. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I think a lot of that stuff is”

pretty ridiculous. It feels like passage material that like is meant to send people down the wrong trail or something. Yeah. Oh, Ellie said it doesn't feel like there's a ton of good evidence. I do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people experience things, you know, and, and, you know, have you ever had anything like that, or? I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. It was back in 2006. Mm-hmm. My girlfriend and I were in what

we call it Betsy and the UK tiny flat on the first floor, not the middle floor. And we got

to bed, we got to sleep, and I was suddenly working up by a really sharp pain in my left heel.

Mm-hmm. And it felt like two or three A.M. felt like I've been, I was in deep sleep, but it'd been a few hours. Well, the house, the house, the kind of lean forward to check it out, like something had been made, that immediately I just went, oh, it was a sleep again. In the morning, I woke up and wheeled, I don't know why I'd gone to bed with my socks on, or at least one sock on. And then I remembered what had happened during the night,

and I pulled the sock off, and in my left heel there were two perfectly circular holes, both about five millimeters in diameter. And one still had a flap of skin, hang of it, like a whole punch used for paper, but about these front, this front part. Why? I know. Not for what they had with the first floor. I've tried to think of every possible confession explanation, was it a rat with perfectly symmetrical five millimeter teeth that

come to my bed and bit me in the night, but I'm in the first floor. You know, not the ground floor where like rodents could be. No explanation whatsoever. I can't say much more than that, because, but I did later, I was going to go more into Aleuk Tornex, much of magnetic, so I did like scans and stuff. And then come up, couldn't find anything wrong, but a few years later, I found out, because this is something

I'm always researching, and looking for an answer, because I still haven't got one. There's a company,

I don't know if it was very signed, there's some chipping, like Aleuk Tornex chipping company, and their process was exactly like that. No way. Yeah, double injection. And then years later, I've got two bumps, the formed where those holes were, and then moved around, and I still have those bumps. What? Oh my hell, today. Do you think a human did that? Do you think an alien did it? I'm thinking some kind of government

tracking government tracking, which I feel ridiculous saying yeah. Well, do you feel ridiculous saying? Because you had a 20 year, you know, prime ministers were negotiating with American presidents on your behalf, because the American government had it out for you. So I don't think,

“you know, I think for a normal person being like, you know, they want to chip me or whatever,”

like that might be a little paranoid, but I think in your case, I'm not too sure, man. Yeah, but even so I wasn't one of your ways, you know, I was a bailer, I don't think was safe, I was contained as they would put it. But yeah, I just can't explain that. It's just weird as hell. Interesting. And do you still have that in your foot? Stop the bumps. Can I see him? Yeah. I hope no one's going to need foot fetishes or all the opposite. Maybe you can start

not only fans after this. All right. Stricties time, but you've not done this before. This is wild. Everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So this company veritas. No, I think it was very sign or something. Various sign. Definitely began with the V, I can't remember. And they do these little chip in plants. Yeah. So when I work up with the holes, they're kind of around here in the corner, but now they've moved slightly. So one's there is a lesser. Wow.

And the other one's there. The other one's big. Yeah. Like that's like very easy to spot. Yeah,

“unless the other one. Okay. I think that's one cover. It's so much. Yeah. It feels smaller. Wow.”

Weird. The company Gary is talking about here isn't called verisign. It's called vera chip.

microchip about the size of a grain of rice that implants under the skin transmits a unique ID when scanned and links to a database with personal or medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool to think something so small can connect you to everything that matters. When your life and all you love are on the line. The chip was introduced to the market in 2002, just a few years before Gary's experience in 2005. And according to Gary, the company's

double injection method would cause something that looks exactly like the two bumps on his foot. I'll let you decide if that's a coincidence or not. If you look a little deeper, vera chip's corporate lineage runs through applied digital solutions and perspectives

filings show that the implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary

of veraethian. What we do saves lives. It protects peace and democracy throughout the world. Yes, that's veraethian. One of the largest defense contractors in the world, deeply embedded in military systems, missile guidance, radar, and classified electronics. By the end of the 2000s, vera chip themselves had secured the rights to technology that would allow the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1. The proposal described in implant

that could determine whether a virus was present. What kind it was, and how serious the threat might be. At that point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person. It would be monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data. Completely dystopian to say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology was likely used in retaliation on an ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnett. So if that were surgically removed, what do you think

you would find? I don't know, maybe two lumps of unallusable material. I don't know. I didn't have so much good equipment back then, but now I have very good stuff about electromagnetic

analysis, radio frequency analysis, and I'll draw the do that first before having it removed.

“You should do all that. Yeah. She do it like tomorrow. Okay. I'll ask my local doctor.”

I'm just saying, you know, you don't want the names to go missing, like in the non-trestrial officers like you want to get like do it now, you know. Yeah. Figure it out. So we're in between your implant experience and then this possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials. And I don't know where to go. My head's exploding. But yeah, I mean, is there anything just going back to the materials thing and the fleet to fleet transfer? It's just so fascinating. And it's

fascinating that you're into towns and brown too. It's like you have this like hermedic connection to this whole stuff. Like you were meant to like see that or something like, like, anything else as far as takeaways from that document, you know, and interpreting it. Because it was it,

“James Fox came out with the program and he, you know, did this great piece on you, but I think”

a lot of people do take what you found and run with it as far as just the people out there, like their interpretations of it when they see, you know, people discuss it. Yeah. So this is your interpretation that it's some sort of supply chain in space or something. Well, we, we stumbled on that together. Together, I guess. Yeah. I really connected it in that way that it wasn't supply chain. It just came to my mind while we were speaking. And in light of what we both know now, it does make sense

in terms of potential propulsion, the materials that might be necessary for that as a

dialectic curve. So it's pretty amazing. No, it makes total sense. There was a company called

Made in Space that tried to do this for a while. There's now probably more promising company called Vardis Space, which does this, like factories in space. At the end of the day, you can think of the value proposition as this is we can do special chemistry because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing engineer. And then often commercial companies are doing things that have already been done in classified settings. And so the stuff that was done in classified

“settings might have been this. You know, who knows? I mean, right now, I think it's like we have”

that are known like six people in space, like six astronauts, like on, you know, the ISS and on various space state. I think the, you know, Chinese space station they have an astronaut or two. So the idea that how many officers were on this list? At least 40ish. So maybe they're in space

non-terrestrial, you know, kind of atomic layer deposition process or, you know, materials manufacturing

or something. Yeah, I've always thought of one aliens. I thought this is bound to be because it says

non-terrestrial. This is not extraterrestrial. So in other words, they're on a fleet. There isn't space in space in or off. But what I want to do is not to be a chemical student, the master of the lab, Tobiya Soft, the internet, so master is really great. I'm saying, you can say that you're a hero. You're a hero, right? But you don't believe it. Egal, it's a super worth of success. Make the whole thing like this. And when they then work,

he says, "Catchin!" "Taskit?" "Safe!" "Viso Stoia!" "Holy dang it, Tsuruk!" "Yets costs no else for being."

“When we talk about a speculative secret space program, we should establish something clearly.”

There really was an uncontested, very real and now declassified secret space program. The US Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA's more public facing ones. In the 1960s, while the world watched Saturn V rock its rise under the banner of Apollo, the Air Force was developing the manned orbiting laboratory. A military space station designed for reconnaissance of America's enemies and other orbital operations.

Seventeen military astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built. Titan-3 rockets were assigned. Launches into polar orbit were planned from Vandenberg. And then,

in June of 1969, exactly one month before the Apollo mission reached the moon for the first time,

the manned orbiting laboratory was canceled. Advances in automated spy satellites made human observers redundant. Vietnam was draining resources. The Apollo program was imminent. So the classified space program was folded. But in defense culture, cancellation does not necessarily mean disappearance. Programs are restructured. Personnel are reassigned. Infrastructure is absorbed into deeper

compartments. So what happened to the military astronaut program? Where did the classified orbital

“expertise go? And what was really going on with the classified space program?”

In 1993, former Lockheed Skunkworks Director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA Alumni event.

Rich had overseen programs like the U2, the SR-71, and the F-1117. Stealth aircrafts that had lived in total secrecy before becoming public knowledge. At the end of his presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich's final slide showed a black, disc-shaped craft flying into space. He closed with the famous words, "We now have the technology to take ET home."

Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just two years later, but towards the end of his life, he would privately say things that sounded very similar

“to this UCLA speech. Things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could barely”

dream up. Just before Ben Rich passed away, when I was talking to him, he told me, at the end of a 45-minute conversation. He said, "Jim, we have things out in the desert, and he was in the journey area 51. We have things out in the desert that is 50 years beyond what you can comprehend." I can't train the hell of a lot. And he said, "If you see a movie makes a guy track a guy worse, we've been there done that, like to say it wasn't what it's the other."

Ben Rich's son, Michael Rich, was the president and CEO of Rand Corporation for decades. Rand was the Santa Monica based federally funded research and development center, evaluating the prospects of project Orion. Nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets, and enable long-duration missions. Not coincidentally, Rand has also conducted comprehensive research on the non-engineering side

of deep space travel, cruise psychology and isolation, life support logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities. Rand Corporation also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity manipulating, deep space propulsion work of towns and brown. His work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967. President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities and his diary entry

is the last frontier, and some of the developments there in astronomy, etc. are like science fiction,

except they are real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such we could orbit 300 people. You read that right, not one shuttle crew, not a single mission, 300 people in Earth's orbit, in space. If you ask your favorite AI conversation agent, it'll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today. But we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s? In 2020, high-meshid, former head of Israel's defense ministry space directorate, essentially the

father of the Israeli space program, publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien representatives were operating on underground bases on Mars. These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades,

“and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a secret space force,”

Stargate. With visible cooperation from the U.S. Air Force, the production of the show Stargate leaned on real-world military structures and culture. In fact, two sitting air force chiefs of staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper appeared on the show as themselves. These guys literally ran the air force, and were showing up for cameos on this show. The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an honorary Brigadier General, in recognition of what the Air Force described

as the program's positive portrayal of the service. The show's central premise? A classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility. Show him. Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff. Or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret. Strange stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think.

Like this stunning revelation, shared with Ross Colthart on Chris Ramsey's Area 52. There was a conversation I had with someone who I trust, who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon. Wow. And I, what do you make of that? I didn't know what to

“make of it. It's important to remember that the public didn't even know the NRRO or National”

Reconnaissance Office existed for decades. The parallel classified Air Force astronaut program wasn't fully declassified until 2015. So is it so crazy to think we might have experimented with covert human space flight and exotic material supply chains since then? The benefits of building materials in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of its lower gravity

environment, behaves in ways that are basically impossible on Earth. Without gravity, there's no convection,

no settling, no buoyancy, tearing materials apart as they form, liquids stay perfectly mixed, crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws, potentially outperforming anything made on the ground. So it's also not that crazy to assume that we've experimented with this technology for extremely high value meta materials used at the highest levels of aerospace. Now where would such a program be headquartered? NASA's Johnson

Space Center in Houston is not only where McKinnan found UFO-related images and spreadsheets. It's the NASA complex that specifically focuses on human space flight. The notorious line, Houston, we have a problem, refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So if you were operating a manned space flight operation involving a material supply chain, that's exactly where you'd put it. I should be clear too, like both of us aren't trying to

“fully pour cold water on UFO crashes, like I think I think like I think, I think”

Roswell happened. I think that's Virginia happened in 1996. So it's always yes and in the UFO world.

Like it's all, but I think intentional conflations also are systematically done by the intelligence world and it's important to be able to parse through all of these things. Yeah. And of course, it's human nature to super-associate stuff with something you want to be true. So we could all fall down the whole as well. Yeah. No, of course. Well, I'm officially shocked. This is crazy. I mean,

surface work for a crane that does this. But Patel Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic

“material stuff as well. And so yeah, I really do wonder if, you know, yeah, some of this is human”

made. And then if you say it's of alien provenance, then it's this like perfect, you know, kind of black box where like people can interpret it however they want. And yeah, it's a great shield. It's a good umbrella. It is. And then the fact and what's wild is that like you're now experimenting with materials, like you literally have materials in mind that make the buyfield brown effect. Like you're interested in these anti-gravity experiments that involve some of these

chemicals that in materials that you saw. Yeah, which is wild. Yeah. Well, the, yeah, it's um,

yes, it's 2007. This is the first write about buyfield brown. How do you read about it? How do you

come across it? I don't remember precisely, but it was because that's early. Yeah, it was undoubtedly researching UFO stuff. Yeah, anti-gravity stuff specifically, what's important to that. But yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can, you can do this and you know, you know, I'm garage

“or shared or whatever, you know, you don't have to be a scientist. You have to be a scientist to”

understand the mechanism, which no one has yet does. But you don't have to be a scientist to do it on the bench and try some experiments, because all it, a capacitor, two conductive plates in between them sandwiched an insulator, a die-latering, the stores of entry chart. So,

you know, what was complicated about that? Um, and if you read all the, the so-called research

into the BB effect, none of it's exhaustive, none of it. It saw, oh, I did five kilovolted DC, I did 10 kilovolted AC, obviously, but they were very far. There are a few people the way far. I'll be research laboratory, but no one's done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of die-led tricks, a multitude of different plates, the mass of the plates, not just the material. Is it AC? Is it DC? D's a side wave? D's are a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sort of

wave or how long your pulse was your delay is that there's so many, well, there's quite a few parameters compared to a lot of stuff, but for a whole experimenter, it's doable within a few hundred

“hours, I think. And I've probably done about 60 hours, I've done thousands of hours of reading,”

but probably 60 hours of experimentation. Wow, wild. Oh, so you've done 60 hours of running the actual experiment. Oh, no, no, no, like like research into the materials, try, yeah, I did try. I mean, I started off with lifters. Okay, yeah, so I'm going to make a fall and that was, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, but it's pulse would and bake a fall, although there was there used to be a website called Blaze Lamps and there's some really well-eformed guys, they're X-era space, they're new all the

like um aerodynamic mass and stuff. And they said, just like Army Research Laboratory, they said, there's no way that this battered, you know, metal foil sheet, which isn't even perfectly smooth, like an airplane. There's no way that aerodynamically, that can be pushed just by oil flow. Mm, just a way. Air rail said it was like at least 10, 20% above, what could be achieved by oil flow. Mm, which is exactly what Brown said. And so for the audience, Townsend Brown is this

mid-century, very mysterious inventor who started with the Navy, then joined Martin Vega, which was, you know, pre-locky, Martin Merger, you know, the year that Skunk works formed, and then kind of popped up in all sorts of, you know, three letter agency contexts and was, you know, shoulder to shoulder with elite American military brass people like Curtis Lamey, you know, just a very mysterious figure who consistently claimed that he would get these positive results in these anti-gravity experiments,

what he called electric rivetics. There's even a video of him popping champagne from the Bonson Lab at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost studying anti-gravity and literally convening all the best theoretical physicists on the question of gravity in 1957, and it was all sponsored by right airfield, which is where all the UFO rumors come from. They were literally paying for this, you know, for a lot of this research. Yeah, weird

connections. And so if you take what he claimed about his own experiments at face value, you'd have this crazy update against, you know, SpaceX in like chemical combustion, it would be this like total paradigm shifting thing. It's not, it's not a small deal. It's a really

number one radar guys in the Navy. There's an FBI file from 1942 or three that basically says he

knows more about radar than anybody in the Navy. And that's that's number one. Number two, electro hydrodynamics, which is not electrogividics. It's the manipulation of air flow with electric fields, which is how that the tin foil, you know, balsa wood, you know, DIY foilers work in fly. But it's also what made it into the B2 stealth bomber. And I'm pretty, I kind of have the receipts on that, too. So like that's, so you have these two things where he's like the best,

like EHD, you know, electro hydrodynamics and radar. And then he's claiming that he could also merge electromagnetism and gravity, which is the holy grail of physics. And so it's like, okay, so like he's right on two out of the three things, but he's a total quack on the third thing. And there's so much smoke around it. And then now you have the lead electric static scientist at NASA, who could, is the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is

only attributable to conventional electrostatics. And he's saying that no, this is, it works, it works in a vacuum, so you can't do it with ionized air, physics in its, in its current form, cannot explain this. And his own experiments, Charles Mueller, who you mentioned, are derivative of

“Townsend Brown's work. And so like, I think there is so much smoke. There's a Japanese experiment”

that you mentioned, the Mousha paper, Mousha Takeda. And they'll be, I forgot his name well. They say that they get, you know, a successful result. In that case, I think they submerge the whole thing in, in transmission oil, which also, you can't ionize transmission oil, like, you know, that's not going to work. So yeah, are they coordinating with these people in the U.S. for like, you know, they, like, some deep state thing in Japan. Like, I don't think so, you know,

it's like this global thing. So yeah, this is wild. So I, and when we were setting this up, and, you know, I was talking to you on the phone and you were like, yeah, I'm super into Townsend Brown. I was like, what does this going to be the best interview ever? Oh, yeah, that makes nobody enjoy your, I call it your Bifu Brown special. I don't know if that's what you think. I'll take it. Yeah, it's called the Bifu Brown special. Yeah, well, thank you.

Well, well, Kudos to you for being Indib Townsend Brown in 2007, because the Maniumaster gravity

“by Paul Schatzkin was this great biography. That only came out and like, I think around the pandemic,”

and he, he had this other version of it that wasn't really edited super neatly or concisely. I think that might have come out in like 2009 or something. And he kind of stepped away from the project. But 2007, like, you're talking about Townsend Brown being on the dark corners of the web. Like they're like, you gotta like, you know, I used to live. It sounds like it. Yeah, man.

Wasn't Paul Leviolet who first introduced the idea of the B2 using that.

Yeah, so here's where I think Paul Leviolet got wrong, because he wrote this great history of Antigravity. And he talks about microwave beam propulsion alongside Townsend Brown's Bifu Brown effect, and you know, he's a really brilliant guy. He had his own theory called sub-quantum kinetics. Oh, yeah, he's whole. Yeah. Which is fascinating. And he seems like just a brilliant, really I would have loved to have interviewed him. He died a few years ago, sadly.

He's dead. Yeah, sucks. Yeah. No, I was an email contact with him. I fell off until the T. He's a guy, but I'll probably call that right. And we were gonna have a, I was gonna start a podcast.

“Oh, and he was gonna be my first interview. Oh, dude, that would have been the best thing.”

Yeah, hip problems. He was on the knowing hip surgery or something. So, I'm a, okay.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's a real bummer. And, but I think where he, and it's an amazing book and

everybody should read it. But I do think he says that the B2 had like an Antigravity drive. And I don't think that's correct. I think I thought he just said the leading edge. It was like a capacitor. Yeah. So, the leading edge was one plate and the trailer edge was another plate. Yeah, so, and I think he's, I think he's right about that. But I think that just manipulates the airflow, like that just makes the airflow. Yeah, it's like, we're just the, you know,

lift to drag ratio. Yeah, it wasn't a full line. Or increase the lift to drag ratio. All right. Yeah, so it might just let me fast. Yeah, it makes it more aerodynamic and faster. I mean, maybe there's some real electromagnetic thing happening. But there's no, there'd be no way to, like, fully say because it's happening, not in a vacuum. So, like, maybe there is something, you know, actually happening there that is, you know, and it's super, yeah, it's top secret. But

I also don't know why they would necessarily declassify the B2 if it was using electric revittics

in the UK, or was. And, you know, it was part of like the Royal Air Society and has all these

“awards and stuff. And for, I think it was like air international magazine. He did like a history”

of, you know, arrow and jintex since World War II. And then he gets to town's in Brown and he goes, with towns in Brown, like, you know, I will refrain from talking about, you know, leading edges charged to millions of volts positive followed by trailing edges, charged to millions of volts negative because I don't want to end up in the tower of London. And then he coviats it a little bit more. So, like, I don't know if that caveatting is genuine, you know, unsheridness of what he's saying

in the tower of London, which for the audience was a place of torture. It was a place of torture. Does it mean professionally, or like, as a whole, like, giving away sea? Or if he's literally saying these are state secrets. Yeah. And then I don't know if the caveats are like, I don't want, you know, I really don't want to be implicated for having said this. So I'm going to sprinkle in some doubt or whatever. I don't know. But it's interesting. Yeah. But, um, so, so you, you, you are,

do you want to pull off one of these experiments? Sure. Oh, hell yeah. I'm planning it by April the latest. I've been, um, distracted for a while and had to do other things. I'm only doing these experiments in a ten by ten foot shared. And, um, they're not expensive, but they

could seem a lot of time. Yeah. And I have, I'm basically doing industrial processes in the garden

“shared. So it's, it's a bit, it's, I've got, but I, the first thing I bought because you have to”

eat this stuff to a thousand degrees. The calcium copper titulate to a thousand degrees. And then compared to by a ten ton hydraulic press, uh, a border gas furnace. And then because of the geometry and stuff, that wasn't unusable. So then a border electric furnace, which is my spawner and, you know, I could, it's an easy to manipulate this tiny disc. The so-called, it's only 40 millimeters across. I'm starting off very small. Um, so I've got to make that into what they call a green body.

Make that solid aborts really high quality silver paste as the plates. Uh, but then after that, you have to think of, when you've got these two placed at 30 kilo volts or more, you get alkene currents, you get sparks, basically. Um, so I have to find a way to stop that. And my first thought is to have very small discs on top of the 40 millimeter diameter calcium copper titulate, cc tier. Um, but there's, there's other ways to do as well. So I've got to, I've got to figure

out a pile from then completely because I really want to see it float. I want to stand there in my shed

to the on switch on and see this thing rise. That would be amazing. If you made something

“levitate, you would kind of, the haters would have nothing to say. Yeah. Good. What do you say?”

That's a good point. You say it's eye and eye. There's not real these days. It could be eye. Yeah. Sure. That's a good point. Would you do this in a vacuum chamber? Uh, yeah. Eventually. I do have one vacuum chamber that's for my resin and it only goes down to like minus 99 MPA or something. Um, but I mean graphic tech has done it and if I can change it, they used to come try for another series of graphic tech. Graphic tech is under a different name now,

but they've got a percentage of the videos. What's his name? No, Henry Henry something. I've had a few emails with him as well. Yeah. They've done it in a vacuum. A proper vacuum like, you know,

minus hundreds of tall shout out to grab a tech. I want to check that out. I've never heard of that.

He's got a different company now, but I've got his email. I'll send you a. Oh, please. Yeah, get him one man. He'd be he'd be glad to. I'd love to. And he now just stuff for satellites. I think, like private satellites. Whoa, not using this. I sure I don't even know enough to come in. But yeah, he's done it in a vacuum. Interesting. It is less. Why wouldn't he pursue it, like, you know, more substantively after that? Sounds like you just want straight to sound like. I think, yeah,

I think he wants to be commercial, make money to well from self. Um, and probably maybe that's as far as he wants it to go. It works. And if I can, but also you have like Jean Louis, No, Dan, French, um, kind of YouTube scientist. I want to call them. I don't know. It's credentials for real. He's done it in vacuum chips. Um, he's isolated the electrode. Mm-hmm, chips. So, but I don't know what the pressure was. So, this is, I mean, yeah. So,

you're right. There is this whole global community of DIY independent creators, aerospace professionals who in their private life just want to pursue this or UFO, not so whatever outside of, you know, whatever they're doing. And most of them say that there's a there there. There are very few people that say there aren't there there. The ones that do,

for a sky. And I think he consistently uses this very low voltage and tries to explain it away.

And I even, I spoke to this one Navy scientist. And he was like Tally's just a bad actor. Like he's like brought on the scene. Like he's, he's like this guy in UFO world named Sean Kirkpatrick, who's the former air director, who's like brought on to like, you know, dismissed. Yeah. Yeah. So, we know, uh, to Ventura. Oh, propulsion. Yeah, do you guys get, yeah. Yeah, he had that guy on that

“did, um, had similar effects with very low voltage, like 5KV life kind of old. I think it was”

bealer now, or because bealer, thanks to the electric ones. Yes. So, this is the NASA, like you're statically, because there was a previous bealer in my old documentation for like

pretty 2000s. Whoa. Unless that was his dad, or maybe it was because he, maybe,

let's see, like, mid 50s now. Maybe it was him. Uh, we're in, in your old documentation. Yeah. Yeah. I've got documents with a bealer. And I didn't think it was him, but maybe it is. Well, we'll have to, we didn't do that dock spot. We said, but do a dock spot. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah. I'd love to. Um, yeah. Do you have like a lot of compiled information about this story? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Cool. Yeah. Interesting. It was zip file. Uh, and in terms of free

“energy, there's one thing, um, I found, not I found, but I found the guy that discovered it. Um,”

so Lindsay's law stops the motor rotating, because of, you know, the counter to magnetic force. If you look at the formula for that, um, the, the strong element of that is the inductance of the coil, and this guy found that if you increase the induct, his name is Thane Hines. If you increase the inductance of the coil, then the rise time of the opposing magnetic field that slow is the turning of the motor down when you're applying power to a load. It's delayed, just like delay in timing,

and I can't imagine. And he found that not only could it delay enough to stop the counter, you see C, C, E, M, F, counter, motor force, dragging, creating electromagnetic drag. When it's part of certain point, phase angle, it assisted the rotation. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So your standards, electric generators are disc with magnets and underneath their coils. And he found that when, um, so the magnet is spinning around, he gets to what they call T, D, C, top dead center

above the coil with his method because it delays that opposing, because when the magnets are, let's say it's a north pole facing down. And it cuts into the coil that creates a south pole in the coil that opposes the incoming movement of the magnet. And then when the magnet's moving out of the coil, it creates a north pole, uh, north pole, which accelerates it out. And he found that when you do this stupidly simple, but incredibly effective time delay, um, the C, M, F rises in such

a way it's late on the income. So the magnet gets pulled in. And it's early on the outgoing, so the magnet gets pushed out, so it accelerates the incoming and the outgoing. And he took it to such an extent that eventually there's no opposition at all. And you could actually reverse, you're not reversing lenses, law, because that's an inaccurate physics statement. But you're reversing the effect, in effect of your, yeah. And I did a small experiment, I'll send you the video.

I did the most simple magnetic emoji cannon. I, um, a cylinder shaped magnet, which is diametrically magnetized. It's not north on top south of the bottom. Each curved half is an north and south pole. I had that in a vertical shaft rotating, and I show it with a normal generator coil, which when you attach it to a load, the power input needed increases to support the load. And, um, the rotation slows down. Well, when I put his coil on, which has higher inductance,

when you tell that coil to power our load, the rotation speed increases. And the input current goes down, the complete opposite of motor theory, motor generated theory. Whoa, that's the one and only thing I've seen, I've been able to replicate the works in terms of free energy. And this guy is now, he's got contracts for Siemens, Phillips with him. He's talking to China. It's about to blow

up. Whoa, and I'll be following him since about 2017 on overunity.com, the first forum.

I saw him fast. What's his name? Thane Heinz. Where's your base? He's Canadian, physicist.

“Hmm, no. Do you're deep down the rabbit hole of alternative propulsion and energy?”

You've got an interview this guy. I would love to. He's, he's like your general kind of crazy

It's typical of somebody who makes like real breakthroughs like that, you know, for them to be

“not always like, I think he's got a lot in his mind. Thank you. He's got a lot in his mind as well.”

Fascinating. What do you think this chip in your foot? Like, does it, does it ever like burn or buzz?

Or, no. It sometimes goes. No. So there's nothing. You basically, you've got no incremental

information on it outside of just a couple of lumps that have moved over time towards the inside of the arch of the foot. Strange. Have you ever had a sort of like any sort of men in black experience or experience with, you know, strange men and suits showing up at your place or no, but my lawyer had to office in her car robbed. Really, which is obviously not men in black as more earthly powers. No, nothing, men in black. Did, uh, did, okay. So when, when you

hacked into all of these sensitive American military sites, how did you get caught in what happened next? Oh, man. Yeah, I got, uh, got lazy, got egotistical, um, and for arching, going to where I like, look at anything. And, uh, I started making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses. So I was making direct connections to, you know, the target. And I was using like free AOL sewn up CDs. So I wasn't being at all like a professional hacker. I was just, yeah, I thought I could just do it

for, oh, these guys don't even know, don't even have passwords. They would even have been here. But yeah, eventually, um, obviously, when like guy right-click the land icon and disconnected me, that was Naza. And they reported to BT, British telecom, which is way into that service provider of the time, and said, who's this IP and this time? And they said, oh, it's, uh,

in fact, they didn't have my name at first. I don't know if my internet account was in my girlfriend's name,

or if we were using their aunts, internet or something, but the horrible thing was when they came, when the national high-tech crime that they came to a recipe, the warrant was for the whole house. And they came early in the morning, arrested me, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's aunt's daughter, who was only like 12 or something at the time. It was quite a horrible experience. She's an extended family, and my fault. And are they arrested 12-year-old? What just a question? Sure. Not a

rest on the... Not a rest on the... Not to judge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's some, uh, it must have been traumatic for it. Yeah, because they didn't know who the person was. They sure, someone in that address. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, and unfortunately, my ex-girlfriend's cousin, he was quite, um,

“and to theory, a theory, and quite alternatively, I think they thought it was him. Oh,”

it must be him, he's got a purple hair. Yeah, he has to be the guy. Oh, so yeah, I'm laughing now, it's horrible because it affected so many other people. You know, Mike's cheaper curiosity, but James mentioned something about guys looking over you at your bed, or something like, like, at night, or something? Oh, no, that's probably when I was arrested, because I was arrested to my sleep. Wait, so, so, you were arrested in your sleep? Yeah, the national high-tech crime unit,

I'd been up all night playing galactic civilizations for what's of them big space game, and, um, and probably smoking, still as well. And gone to bed late, so I was asleep at eight in the morning. My girlfriend was getting ready to go to work, knock, knock, knock. She's in the dressing gown, they're patting her down, and pushing her into a room. They're coming to my room. I'm in bed, and I've got, let's go. Go ahead and get it. I've Jeff Donston for the national high-tech

crime unit. You're under arrest for computer misuse, I acted a little bit. So, yeah. And then from, from that point onwards, the UK was, like, okay, with more of kind of a slap on the wrist sort of thing, and then it was the US that was like, no, we need to extradite him now. And then, well, you mentioned, they, they changed the extradition laws to make it this sort of

blanket thing that applied to you. Yeah, definitely. So, well, when I was first arrested,

the national high-tech crime unit, who were the arrested bodies, sent me, you'll do six months since side, maybe community service, maybe low jail time, because under UK law, all I did was on all-thrised access. You know, I didn't break anything or steal anything or make money or anything like that. And, but then these offices went to America at the O&I, and I must say, "Office of Naval Intelligence" because there's another O&I, there's an intelligence system.

“I think investigation or something, but I don't know. Yeah. And, when they came back, they're”

very heavy-tone, a completely different tone about them. They were very impressed by me with the top brass in Washington. And, um, yeah, oh, this guy caused $5,000 of damage on every PC,

sort of software hack that we're calling a hack, but you're using, like, off the shelf stuff.

Yeah, sure. It's like PC anywhere. Yeah. But I think what the cool damage is the time I took them to take them offline, so the machines are unusable for a while, investigate them, so it's, you know, you know what? It's, it feels like kind of white hack hacking to me, because you didn't actually end up using any of the files in a way to hurt the US or their, like, again, you can say what you will about Snowden or the Sondra, any of these guys, like, there's nothing

you did to, like, knock the US down a leg as far as the tool. They're tactical ability to, like, you know, do things, so it's almost like a white hack because the costs they incurred to take the

stuff down and reset them, they would have needed to do anyways. That would have been what if,

“like, a malicious person had, like, you know, kind of traded all these servers. That's what I'm saying.”

No, no, no. So they're actually extremely lucky that you did $5,000. Why are you buying a PC scroll? No, they should, I mean, you literally white hackers get paid. So, like, I think they should pay it. All right. I'm just, please tell the email. You know, I'm serious. It's like, you literally, you didn't do anything showing malintent once you got the info, they got the info back. And then they reset ideally their computer networking and architecture in a way that, you know,

these sort of fishing attacks couldn't be done. These are basic things that you're using. Yeah. So, I just, like, I think it's like insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in, in, like, middle-ing bureaucracy who's trying to cover their ass. Like, this took us all this cut. Well, you should have done it before. Yeah. Yeah. What are you doing? You're not doing your job. Yeah. If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had figured out

in 2000, that would be one thing. That would be okay. And then you used it in this sort of detrimental way to American National Security. Crifty did it, is it? Yeah. But otherwise, I mean, I don't know,

“man. That feels like a kind of great. Okay. So then what happens to the extra-dition laws?”

Oh, man. So, yeah, the original extra-dition law, which I think was 1989, was a good basic law. We accused this British citizen of having committed to crime in or against America. We have this evidence, and it's a crime over here, and it's a crime over there. So, we should have in America to stand strong. It's actually fair. It's actually reasonable. But then, I mean, this is the way a thing. In law, computer crimes are weird. It's a great area,

because it's not physical. Where's your bum at the seat? What do you keep at the crime? There's lots of, like, questions that are legally intransigent, you know, like, how do you place this? So, what happened was I was arrested in 2002, and in March, and then I was re-questioned by the the NXTC, you went to visit the DOJ in August, then they came back, then they re-interviewed me in November 2002, and that's when their tone of change is very serious. You're accused of

harming, but it actually systems that luck could be isn't present. And that's when, you know, things really got serious for me. I thought, my god, this is just blown out of all proportion. But we were protected by the extra-distant law, because they had to be evidence of malintent, et cetera. And what I did, my police interview, I completely admitted to why I'd done, because it was all in the hard drive. I said, yeah, it's all in the hard drive. I went there,

and I got this document, went to another place, got other documents. So, I was open about it, figured out six months like the time I'd be fine, and they said community service, so I can do both. I'll be fine. Although I wouldn't have lied six months in prison. But when it came to November, and then they threatened extra-distant, then on paper, it was 70 years, and child, 70 years, it was like 10, 7 counts, 10 years per count. And I just went crazy, I thought, this is absolutely

mad. What am I going to do? And there was a lot of, like the UFO community in America, wanted me to stand for, in America. There was like a matter of race. Yes, it would be great. He'll come over, he'll, the open all the secrets, and he'll make it out. But what America actually said, the DOJ said, that I'd be tried under military order number one, which is Guantanamo status, totally secret, no media, no media cover, no family visits, you know, me, and I'm on suit with my red hair.

So yeah, it went really scary, like really scary, like over the top, like, well, you know,

“Kafka, Kafka-esque. Yes, many people said. Damn, you must have been, you must felt horrible.”

You must have been like the world out to get me, or the most powerful nation in the world,

in late 2002, and by 2008, because we lost so many core cases and hearings, I've given up all hope,

and I thought there's no way I'm going to give my fucking life to a foreign jail. And I bought potassium chloride, one of the three chemicals in the lethal injection. And I thought, if I get that decision, I'm just going to go, we're not inject it. I'll load up how many grams per kilogram of body weight, and I was just going to swallow it and have our attacking die. Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required to make a decision is where the Mr McKinnan's

extradition to the United States would breach his human rights. After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr McKinnan's extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life. The decision to extradite would be incompatible with Mr McKinnan's human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition, extradition, order,

against Mr McKinnan. That was incredible. Theresa May.

So yes, heavy. That's heavy, man. That's really intense, and I'm sorry, got to that place, because that's ridiculous. If you look at the fact pattern, it's just insane. And again, I'm saying that some of these other whistleblower cases, there are nuances to them. I'm saying,

“yours, I think it's an absolute witch. That's crazy. Yeah, I agree. It's just crazy.”

Yeah, I don't even know what to say. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm behalf of my country. Well, you're not the government, Jessica. That's true. I don't have to forgive you. Okay. Well, yeah, it's just not a good representation. But yeah. Well, America's a great country. The people are great. It's just there's been some very bad governance since World War II in my own opinion. Yeah. No, I don't list out in the pond as well. The virtues as well. Sure. Yeah.

No, and it's crazy that you were, I mean, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Theresa May, all these UK prime ministers, we're thinking about you. You were this really important case because the, you said that the extradition law was changed literally like right after you did what you did. Yeah, this is one thing I didn't mention. Yeah. We saw a draw off of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers. And it was written a British extradition treaty with

America. It was written an American English, which is kind of a clue as to who's calling this taxed. And, you know, American spelling in English, the document. And also a lot of the phrases

“were almost verbatim taken from some of my charges. So I think it's still that there's anything”

special about me, but it was what I did. And at that time, the American DOD systems were getting like 250,000 attacks, hacking attacks. So if you read the general accounting office documents at the time and still to this day, so I think they needed to do something and then need to increase the punishment and they needed a poster boy. So timing is everything, isn't it? Yeah, because there had been big hackers before you, right? Like, what's the name of the guy who hacked into the DOE,

Department of Energy in like atomic lab? Matthew Bevin. Matthew Bevin. Yeah. And so this was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional hacker. Is that safe to say? Or also kind of like a vigilante? Yeah, I think he was more skilled than I was. He didn't just do blank post when he found, you know, weaknesses in protocols. Okay. He was more advanced. But

yeah, he was early. He was in the 90s. And then what happened to him? He was basically

slap on the rest. It did go through some shit. Don't get me wrong, Matthew, if you're listening. But yeah, he didn't face a long term. There are a few of these cases before you where, I think, you know, a certain case, it was like a hundred thousand computers ended up with malware, you know,

“who said, yeah, well, I mean, yeah, if you want to know who's the most successful hacker,”

it's not a person that's virus. Yeah. Like the love love, what's that I can't remember. But I'm talking about specifically, there's precedent for UK-based hackers hacking into US systems, which neither of us are suggesting anyone do. You know, it's not, you don't hack into, you know, national security stuff, you know, this is a little less. But in, in those cases, they did worst stuff than you. Yeah. And, and they just got slaps on the wrist. And then you're this like,

UFO interested, you know, you want to know if there's like free energy or whatever, like for your,

terrorist thing or like undermine, you know, American supremacy in any way or whatever. And like,

they just come after you. Yeah. And so they changed the energy. Yeah. What's important to them, is it someone like cleverly stealing money in a cyber-forward way, which a lot of people have done. Oh, is it some as a UFO truth, is that? Yeah. Well, no, it, it might show that that actually, you know, hit a trigger point. Like that the, like, cigar-shaped tick-tack object, you know, flying in deep space, you know, that might be this really sensitive thing that they just

really don't want to talk about. And then the non-true, the space supply chain thing. I could see that, you know, they don't want to talk about that either. That's a counterpoint to that. That information was already out, don't know. This shirt was out, so it's kind of, if it's already out, why go so heavy on this gun. As a counterpoint to that, like, there's proof that you got into these sites. Donnie here,

it's always going to be this kind of like single sample size. And if one story told and you can always

be like, that person was crazy. Yeah. But like when you're case, like, they have like a, you know, there's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? You can't go to the US now. I will be into pull reckless. You're on the interpole, reckless. That's crazy. I don't even think I need that.

“Hopefully I'm good. But yeah, like, like, you know, with, with, I think, in your case,”

there's no arguing with the fact that you got into these sensitive sites. So the fact that you're saying, you saw a tick tack, you know, in deep space, but above earth. And then you saw these non-trust real, maybe 40, some odd officers. Like, you know, that's, that's like pretty, that's like a little deeper, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But like, to the point that, like, you shouldn't be blamed, it's like, you didn't sign something. You didn't, you didn't, like, sign up to, like, you didn't work, like,

working at one of these, but you were like, lie in your, I mean, you've heard a thing, how, friends, I didn't manage that. If I was in tell, I was like, how many manage this guy? I mean, I think that we're probably quite happy when I got diagnosed with espochis in 2008, hmm. Well, okay. He's mentally ill. He's fine with that. Right. Right. Right. Like a putaway. Oh, put him in the mentally ill draw. Hmm. Do you ever think, like, the the chip is somehow

either monitoring you, you A or B, it's like feeding you ideas or anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You start glitching right now. Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever think it has some sort of, you know,

now? No, my mind feels the same as it always has. Okay. But I do want to do some further

“scanning with, well, modern, nothing. You should. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. I always talk to,”

what was his name, the guy that used to scan implants. He's dead now. Roger Lear. Roger Lear. Yeah. I was she was around. And what could come to the UK? Yeah. He'd be the perfect guy. Yeah. I might know if somebody else. You can help. Yeah. So later. Yeah. Exactly. Explain what's going on quickly. I can't turn my phone off. Look. Look. Yeah. Let's document all of this. You can see my finger is on the power button and both. This is like a hard reset.

But my finger is on the power button. And volume up and volume down at the same time. And nothing. Nothing. That's never happened before. Absolutely. It's never happened before. It's insane. But you're with Darren McKinnon. And with Gary McKinnon, who is a lifer. I didn't do it. This was the, you know, everything I'd hoped it would be.

“This conversation is so fun. And I really hope you pull off this Bifel Brown effect. I think it”

would be this beautiful kind of, I don't know, vindication. You know, I'm not saying what you did was fine. But I think you were completely persecuted in this horrible way. And I love the fact that by the way that UK rally behind you and you ended up, you know, singing with a, you know, David Gilmore, you know, the singing of the Pink Floyd, you know, and like you have all these people, like kind of this people's champion. For us, we still was nuts about one of my favorite

hippie patterns when I was young. Wait. What did, what crossed me so's a Nash? Yeah. They were like rallying behind you as well. Yeah. They did, um, they just like mentioned, maybe one song at one of their gigs. But you know, thousands of people. I didn't know that. Yeah. So cool. You've seen all these bands. I love when I was little. I was like, God, it was crazy because you really need to press, but you're seeing all your musical heroes. Yeah, vouching for your life. But you're also,

didn't you, you sang with David Gilmore? Yeah. And, uh, Chrissy Hines and Bob Gildov. But I didn't actually only sang in the same studio at the same time with Chrissy Hines. I didn't get to meet David Gilmore or Bob Gildov. Okay. Fortunately. Well, wild. Thank you Theresa May for making the right decision. And, uh, you know, letting you go and, uh, I think the U.S. should drop their rest warrant.

go on a nice vacation. And, uh, yeah, hopefully next time I see you, it's in the states.

And, uh, not be fantastic. It would be great. Thanks for great interview. Absolutely, Gary.

“No, it was an honor. It was a lot of fun. And, uh, yeah, hopefully, you know, I think we made a little”

bit progress here too. And through piecing some things together. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, logistics

supply too. Exactly. Uh, sweet. All right.

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