Casefile Archives 7: Nicky Fleming

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“Our episodes deal with serious and often distressing incidents.”

If you feel at any time you need support, please contact your local crisis centre. For suggested phone numbers for confidential support and for a more detailed list of content warnings, please see the show notes for this episode on your app or on our website. On the night of Thursday April 8, 1998, Luke Nolan and his partner Angela were driving along the Hume Highway, one of Australia's major interstate roadways.

The Hume stretches for 840 kilometers between the capital cities of Melbourne and Sydney, with the dozens of exits and interchanges dotted throughout. Luke and Angela were heading to the New South Wales border city of Aubrey for the Easter Break. As they travelled north and acquired into remote stretch of the highway between the Victorian towns of Urawa and Benalla, the couple encountered something that made them

markedly uneasy. A large red freight truck with a white semi trailer was weaving in a snake-like way across the northbound roads double lanes. Luke and Angela suspected the truck's driver was either drowsy or on something. Wanting to get a safe distance away, Luke moved into the right lane to overtake the truck. Just as he drew near, the truck appeared over into his lane. Luke hit the brakes and pulled back. When the truck was back in the left lane,

Luke tried once more to overtake, but it swurved again. It took Luke three more attempts before he was finally able to overtake the dangerous truck, and a gradually became a distant spec in his review mirror. A short-time later, at 1215 a.m. on Friday, April 9, Victoria Police's major collision investigation unit were alerted to an incident on the Hume Highway near Violet Town, the half-way

point between Urawa and Benalla. The request for the major collision squad's presence highlighted the seriousness of the matter, as they were only ever summoned to vehicular incidents that resulted in life threatening injury. The team immediately left their office in Melbourne and headed up the Hume Highway, where the densely populated city-scape soon gave way to long stretches of agricultural fields, rolling hillsides, and thickets of trees. The highway consisted of four lanes,

and sirens blaring, it took the major collision team two hours to reach the remote location where

“the incident had occurred. They could easily tell when they were drawing close to the site,”

as an uncharacteristically long traffic jam had formed, despite the early hour. The Hume was particularly busy that night, as travellers drove two or from regional Victoria for the Easter Break. Police further ahead were directing cars to turn off the highway at an exit before Violet Town, but the detour was slow moving. The major collision team veered onto the gravel that boarded the road and slowly drove past the bumper to bumper traffic,

until they spotted the incident site artificially lit up in the distance.

They parked well clear of the debris and walked the rest of the way. By now, it was 3am and icy cold. The surrounding countryside was still blanketed in pitch black

“darkness. As the major collision team approached the scene, they realized the incident involved”

a Mazda Bravo four-wheel drive that had been telling a caravan. The two vehicles had separated and rolled in different directions. The caravan had come to rest upright on the median strip in the middle of the highway. A rectangular section had been torn cleanly from the back right-hand

panel, leaving a gaping hole that exposed the Titan mattress within.

The Mazda had landed upside down on the other side of the highway. Several items had tumbled out of the vehicle as it rolled, including a coloring book, pencils, children's slippers, various toys, and empty-fast food cups. Protruding from a shattered window was a small pair of blood-street feet.

“They belonged to a young boy who was laying face down on the roof inside, clearly deceased.”

One of his hands still grasped an Easter egg wrapped in gold foil that he had been holding at the time of the collision. The child was identified as 12-year-old Nikki Fleming. He had sustained severe head injuries as well as fractured ribs and a broken leg and collarbone. Nikki had been traveling with his father who was behind the wheel as well as his brother and sister. They had been rushed to hospital by the time the major collision team had arrived.

Their injuries varied in severity, though all miraculously survived. Ian Fleming, Nikki's 45-year-old father, had a broken arm, elacerated forehead, and a deep cut across his nose. He's oldest 13-year-old son, suffered a fractured skull. Ian's eight-year-old daughter was being traded for minor cuts and grazes. While recovering in hospital, Ian Fleming was able to recall the lead-up to the collision.

He had left his home on the seaside morning-to-mpaninchula-shire, southeast of Melbourne at 5.30 pm on Thursday, April 9. Ian's children were going on their annual Easter camping trip in the Northeastern Victorian town of Bright, more than four hours away. The children's mother had decided she wanted to do other things that weekend, so it was just Ian and their kids. After packing the caravan,

Ian drove north until he reached the human highway. Shortly before 11pm, Ian noticed his petrol tank was running low. Bright was still over an hour and a half away, so Ian had to stop somewhere to refuel. He saw a sign-up ahead for Violet Town and safely reduced his speed to take the turn off. Just before the exit, Ian was startled by a loud bang. Ian's body immediately jolted forward with such intensity that it left him feeling dazed. Within seconds, he's carvied out of control.

Ian's mind raised as he tried to understand what had happened. He thought he must have blown a tire or the car was malfunctioning in some other way. He desperately tried to regain control, but the car seemed to have a will of its own. It mounted the median strip and flipped before rolling over and over for what seemed like forever. When the car eventually came to a stop on its roof,

Ian removed his seatbelt and fell to the roof. His daughter did the same as did his older son.

“12-year-old Nicky didn't move. Ian managed to escape the rack. Broken glass coated the road.”

The roof inside the car was stained with blood. Ian dragged his children out one by one. The two older children were hurt but conscious. Nicky wasn't responding to his father at all. He had died on impact. Ian had no idea what had happened.

When first responders arrived, they initially thought the incident was a single vehicle collision,

as there were no other impacted vehicles or victims in the vicinity. It wasn't until they spoke with witnesses and hour after the crash that they learned a large red freight truck with a white semi trailer was responsible. It had been cited driving

“a radically along the hum drifting between lanes and almost hitting other motorists in the lead-up”

to the crash. There was no clear explanation for the truck's reckless driving. It had been a clear night with perfect conditions. The incident occurred on a straight stretch of

road in the middle of empty fields. Ian Fleming hadn't noticed the truck at all as it carelessly

burled up behind him. What happened next was described as every highway uses worst nightmare. The way would truck clips the rear of the Fleming's caravan, which caused the master in front to go wildly astray. There was little Ian Fleming could do to prevent what happened next. The caravan was hit on its right-hand side causing it to be violently to the left.

“This made the master jackknife to the right to ward the median strip.”

The caravan was wrenched free and slid across the road on its side before somehow writing itself and coming to rest on the median strip. It had a few minor dense and scratches, and the rear-right panel had been cleanly torn off by an eyeballed on the front of the truck. Otherwise, the caravan was in remarkably good condition. The same couldn't be said for the master. The truck driver had swerved to the right to avoid the

caravan as it swung violently. This caused the truck to collide with the driver's side of the Fleming's master, and hit it again when the car rotated. The car was sent into a higher velocity roll that left a perfect impression of its side in the bitumen. It rolled three times

before its crushed wreckage finally came to rest, 105 meters down the road.

A collision squad reconstruction expert calculated at the truck, which was carrying upwards of 40 tons, had been exceeding the speed limit at 106 kilometers per hour before the driver slammed the brakes 10 to 20 meters behind the caravan. It was too little, too late. The master had slowed down to 88 kilometers per hour in preparation for taking the exit to violet town. The truck driver had failed to react sooner, causing the fatal and a devastating crash.

It was speculated that the driver had been tailgating the master, following too closely, and not leaving a safe distance between them. In Fleming's field of vision was obscured by the caravan, so he wasn't aware of the danger of right behind him. The truck disappeared in a cloud of dust immediately after the collision. No one caught a glimpse of the driver, and none of the witnesses followed in pursuit,

as they had pulled over, and assumed the truck would do the same. This categorized the incident as a hit and run, a criminal offense. Police established a roadblock further north where the Hume Highway crossed over into New South Wales, hoping to intercept the fleeing truck there, but it didn't appear. The morning sun revealed the full scope of the crime scene.

Investigators likened it to a bomb site. An aerial view of the crash showed

how it had swerved around the debris and onto the gravel along the shoulder of the road,

“before regaining control and fleeing the scene.”

Double tracked tyre tracks arched across both northbound lanes of the highway and continued on to the median strip. This meant the truck travelled for some meters on the grass after the collision, perhaps giving the driver enough time to slow down and via left to take the violet to an exit. If not, they must have continued straight up the highway and taken another exit further ahead. By the time the major collision investigation unit were beginning their search for the truck,

it already had a near 4-hour head start. There were multiple routes it could have taken in every direction. By daybreak, it might have already been many hundreds of kilometers away. The section of road where the fatal crash occurred remained blocked over the busy Easter weekend.

“With such a large scale crime scene on a busy interstate highway,”

part of the challenge was sorting out which pieces of debris belonged to it and which didn't. All up, it took investigators more than 12 hours to collect evidence and to document the crime scene. Double the time it usually takes. All sorts of unrelated vehicle components were found amongst the wreckage, until a major collision team member stumbled upon an accident investigators' version of a jackpot.

Some small pieces of amber glass from a broken indicator light. Most significantly, one of the pieces had a serial number on it. Investigators contacted the makers of the glass, a company called Hela Restralia,

“and provided the serial number. Hela's records revealed they had fitted that same kind of”

lights, a various boats and cars, as well as many trucks over the years. Though they couldn't pinpoint which exact vehicle the glass from the crime scene had originated from. Looking closely at the back right-hand panel torn from the caravan, investigators noticed a rectangular indentation imprinted on the aluminium. It looked like an inverted V, or perhaps the top of an A.

Investigators thought it might be the impression of a number plate. At this early juncture, the police had few details to go on. All they knew was that they were looking for a red freight truck with a white semi trailer, a broken amber indicator light, and possibly a license plate that featured the letter V or A. Ian Fleming appealed to the hit run driver from his hospital bed.

He was in shock over losing Nikki, whom he described as a beautiful child and much loved son and brother, with a wide range of interests including softball, drama, and a jazz ballet.

When Ian first learnt that the person responsible for Nikki's death had fled the scene,

he was furious. Since then, he'd come to understand that the driver likely panicked and made a spur of the moment decision to leave. Ian remained hopeful they would do the right thing. He begged the unknown driver. I'd like him now to think about what he's done, and honor himself, and a step forward please. Case file will be back shortly. Thank you for supporting us by listening to this episode's

ad. By supporting our sponsors, you support Case file to continue to deliver quality content. Investigators were aware that it wasn't unusual for hit run offenders to give themselves up in the day's following crashes. Sometimes they needed to come to grips with what had happened,

or sober up from stimulants they had taken. Hit run offenders almost always told someone what

they'd done. If not, the damage to their vehicle raised questions and they'd be dubbed in. The police knew in this circumstance that there was no way the truck driver hadn't realized

he had been in a very serious collision, and he showed considerable skill to get back on the road.

“A 12-year-old boy deserves more than to be left by the side of the home highway for dead.”

Truckers shared news of Nicky Fleming's death over their vehicles CB radios, calling the person responsible and mungrel. They urged him to come forward and stop giving them all a bad rap. Rival truck drivers accused each other of being responsible. Crimestop has also received a deluge of tip-offs from individuals with personal vandedas against particular truckies, from former partners to neighbors who were sick of seeing rigs parked in their

street. Investigators followed up each lead and interviewed many drivers, ruling them out one by one.

As time wore on, it became clear that Ian Fleming's impassioned plea had fallen on deaf ears. With no one coming forward to claim responsibility, detectives were facing the worst case scenario.

“The driver seemingly hadn't told a soul, and the damage to their truck had either gone unnoticed”

or was discreetly repaired before it raised any questions. Investigators suspected they were looking for an owner driver rather than a company driver, as the collision damage would be easier to hide if the truckie wasn't answerable to anyone.

Back at their Melbourne office, the major collision investigation unit got back to work.

Not being trucking experts, they were about to take a steep learning curve. If the truck driver was heading north along the Hume Highway just before Easter, he had to be going home because most truck depots would be closed over the long weekend. It was unlikely he would sit outside a closed depot and wait four days for them to open again.

“In quarries at the state motor registration board revealed that there were 160,000 trucks”

registered on Australian roads. Finding the one responsible was going to be a massive undertaking. In the meantime, forensic analysts examined the evidence from the crime scene. The truck had left smear of red paint on the Mazda and Caravan. Under a microscope, the paint was shown to have an iron-based undercoat with an epoxy primer and a topcoat. The topcoat was made from an organic red pigment.

Most people see a red car or truck but can't differentiate between different shades and color bases. This was purpleish red. Paint samples were requested from companies that had red branded trucks, including Australia post and Mac trucks, as well as from the paint manufacturers themselves. None matched the paint from the collision. A gantry on the New South Wales border photographed all trucks that crossed from Victoria.

30 km further up the road, the trucks were photographed again and their speed was calculated from the time between the photos. Enfrenchment notices were issued to truckies who were found to be speeding. 50 blackened white photos of trucks were taken in the period between 1030 pm on April 9 and 6am on April 10. None of the vehicles featured damage consistent with the collision. When the Mazda Bravo handed the Caravan were forensically examined,

photographs of the damage were sent to the major collision investigation unit. They arranged to get a blown-up picture of the Caravan's rear-right-hand panel where the truck had made a initial contact. Upon studying the images closely, investigators deduced the ledger V or A impressions were the wrong size to be lettering from a license plate. The shapes had to have been made by something on the front of the trucks bullbar.

They could now see there was a rectangular shape with the inverted V, as well as some circles and a rectangular tear. Trucks had all sorts of signage on their fronts. Investigators knew if they could identify what imagery caused the strange impression they might be able to identify the truck. However, by the 8th week of the investigation, the case had stalled.

By now, Nikki Fleming had been laid to rest in a moving service attended by 350 family members and

“friends. Despite the outpouring of love and grief, the culprit continued to show no remorse”

by refusing to come forward. No one was more invested in finding the person responsible than seeing you constable cast and shorts of the major collision investigation unit. The case preoccupied his mind at all times, and he agonized over the evidence, trying to uncover something they had missed. He even bought every trucking magazine he could

find in the hopes they featured an image of the truck they were desperately looking for.

Having a son of his own only amplified constable shorts is drive to find Nikki Fleming's killer. Constable shorts worked the case full time. After one shift, he drove to a local industrial

“estate where several trucking yards were located. He drove by each side before coming across a red”

truck parked up the road. What caught his eye were two small canvas covers on the left and right hand sides of the bullbar under the headlights. The insignia on the covers was a big white W with a red star in the middle. It was the logo for western star an international truck manufacturer. Shultz had examined pictures of the Fleming's caravan panel thousands of times and all of a sudden, it clicked. The inverted V was in fact the center of a W. The truck at the center of the collision

was a western star. However, Australia, the company that fitted the trucks and the glass

indicator light had a contract with western star. Finally the case was moving forward. Constable

“shorts got out of his car to take a closer look at the red truck. It showed no sign of damage or”

repair consistent with the violet town collision. The truck's driver was nevertheless tracked down and ruled out. Constable shorts had found the right type of truck just not the one he was looking for. The major collision team could now further narrow down their search by finding out which western star trucks were fitted with the model of hella light fragments found at the crime scene. Records indicated that 1,732 trucks built since 1993 had the hella rambo light.

As it turned out, the measurements of the indentations left by the trucks bullbar weren't standard. The vertical sections were 75mm wide, while most vertical uprights on bullbars were between 90 and 100mm wide. There were only a few manufacturers who made 75mm uprights. One of them was King Barr's in Queensland. Western star trucks were manufactured in Queensland, so it stood to reason that King Barr's might be their supplier of choice.

According to King Barr's manager, only one bullbar fit the measurements of the suspect to truck, a 4964F heavy-duty road train bar. A wooden mock-up made to the King Barr's specifications was placed against the Fleming's Caravan panel. It fit like a glove. Same with the Mazda panel. The King Barr's manager sent his receipt books to Melbourne. His records revealed that 679 Western star trucks had the heavy-duty road train bullbar.

Of these, 206 were fitted with the bullbar and the Western star canvas covers. For an investigation that had begun with 160,000 possible trucks, police were now down to 206. Each of these trucks had to be located and trapped. This proved difficult as the trucks travelled the entire country. A four-page questionnaire was distributed to police and was to be filled out each time a Western star truck was pulled over, listing make, model, color,

and most importantly any damage to its exterior. This man's the hit-run driver would have every traffic cop looking for him. The plan also compelled every innocent truck driver to be

Forensic officer Ted Kennedy Rippen had been assisting detectives with the case,

“but in mid-September, he temporarily stepped away to go on personal leave.”

During his break, Ted and his family holidayed with his in-laws in the northern Victorian town of Atuka. At around lunchtime on Saturday, September 12, Ted and his father-in-law went for a drive and pulled into a service station to get some petrol. When Ted exited the car, he noticed the red truck parked on the other side of the station. As his father-in-law filled the tank, Ted walked over to the truck for a better look.

With no sign of the truck's driver, Ted approached cautiously from the side.

The vehicle's big silver logo caught his eye. He'd red, Western star. Right sort of truck, Ted thought. After examining paint samples for months,

“he also knew it was exactly the right Percolish red color.”

Ted looked at the bullbar to see if there was any signs of damage. It was then that he spotted a crack in the bottom wrong on the right-hand side, consistent with the Violet Town collision. He also saw a damaged indicator light that someone had tried to repair. The truck had Western star camped as covers on the front, and the eye bolt was in the correct

position to have made the tear in the Caravan panel. With growing excitement, Ted realized he's stroke of luck. He walked around the truck to see if there was any damage to the paint work,

“and found a scrape the size of a 10-san coin close to the heller light.”

Everything was consistent with Violet Town. As Ted leaned in to inspect the scraped paint work, the truck driver stepped down from the trucks cabin. Ted hadn't noticed him there, and nearly jumped out of his skin. Case fire will be back shortly. Thank you for supporting us by listening to this episode Sponsors. Thank you for listening to this episode's ads. By supporting our sponsors, you support Case

Fire to continue to deliver quality content. When Ted Kennedy Rippen came face-to-face with the truck driver who could be the man they'd

been hunting for six months, the first thing he thought to say was, "How big's your engine?"

Playing it cool, Ted pretended he was a trucking enthusiast. The truck driver's initial suspicion relaxed as the two men started talking trucks. Do you own it, Ted asked, "The driver replied an enchilantly with a laugh. Nah, the bank owns it." This meant he was an owner driver, just the type investigators suspected was responsible for the hit and run.

Ted returned to his father-in-law and wrote down the truck's details. He then contacted the major collision investigation unit and provided a detailed description of the truck. What Ted didn't know was that an officer in Victoria had pulled over the same truck three days earlier and filled out the questionnaire provided by Case investigators. The driver's name was Brett Kilmore. He was from Queensland and was a 30-year-old father of

two. Two hits on Kilmore's truck in five days pushed it to the top of the investigation. Investigators worked to determine if they could place Brett Kilmore on the Hume Highway on the night of Thursday, April 8, 1998. They tracked Kilmore's mobile phone records and discovered that his device had been traveling north along the Hume Highway that very night. At 10 o'clock PM, he placed a call near the town of Nagambi.

Violet town was a further 60 km away. Travel timings aligned for him to have been involved in the collision.

two hours after the crash. Coltowers pinpointed his location around the regional city of

“Sheperton, less than an hour's drive north west of Violet town, indicating that Kilmore”

exited the Hume shortly after Violet town and continued along the new highway. This was not a typical route truck drivers used when traveling north and explained why Kilmore went unnoticed after the crash. This data also showed that Kilmore had stopped his truck for quite some time in the middle of the night before continuing on. It turned out Brett Kilmore was the focus of three other investigations pertaining to

car collisions that took place after Violet town. Two occurred in South Australia and another was in

New South Wales. In fact, at the time investigators were honing in on Kilmore, he's read Western Star Truck was in for repairs. If Damage on the truck was being repaired,

“then possible evidence from the Violet town collision could be lost. It was imperative”

that the truck be implanted and forensically examined without delay. Members of the Major Collision Investigation Unit travelled to Queensland and immediately swooped on Brett Kilmore's truck. Inside, investigators found a strange device wired to the engine and hidden in a compartment

in the sleeper cabin. Known as a wizard, this was used to override speed limiters on trucks.

Prior to the Violet town crash, the offending truck was traveling at 100 and 6 km per hour. Western Star trucks were speed limited to 100 km per hour. That meant the suspect to use the device to override the speed limiter and here it was. There were three huge round fuel tanks on the right-hand side of Kilmore's truck

“under the driver's door. One of the fuel tanks had a huge dent in it, but had been turned around”

so the dent faced inwards and couldn't be seen. This was definite evidence of Violet town. The cracked bullbar was also consistent with the crime scene. Furthermore, a tiny patch of canvas found embedded into a screw from the Caravan's rear-right panel was a perfect match for the hole in the Western Star Road train cover. On Tuesday, October 7, 1998, almost six months to the day since the Violet town collision,

a tall, lanky man walked into a Nala police station in Queensland. It was Brett Kilmore. He explained that a new South Wales police officer had asked him to report to the station in regards to a collision he'd been involved in. Victoria's major collision team was waiting at the back of the station. Kilmore's arrival had been a trap that had arranged with their interstate colleagues.

After being informed that Kilmore was present, they ushered him into an interview room. Kilmore didn't appear nervous until the officers introduced themselves. Where from the Victoria Police, and we would like to ask you some questions about a collision at Violet town on April 9 this year. Kilmore was immediately rattled and replied, "What Victorian collision?" I thought I was here about a new South Wales collision.

Then Kilmore began to shake. After a moment of anxious silence, he asked, "Should I ring a solicitor?" Investigators told Kilmore that it was up to him that cautioned that anything he said would be used as evidence. Kilmore stared at the floor before announcing. I've been waiting for you blogs to come around for six months.

With that, the flood gates opened. Kilmore denied driving a radically that night, but admitted to taking no dose, caffeine tablets that can restore mental alertness and wakefulness in moments of fatigue. Despite knowing that driving while fatigue to his dangerous, Kilmore blamed the pressures placed on truck drivers, especially owner operators.

Kilmore said that he hadn't seen the Fleming's Caravan until it was too late to avoid it.

“He tried to blame bright lights on a vehicle behind his truck for distracting him, but this didn't”

add up. Investigators had interviewed multiple witnesses and none reported seeing a car with bright lights or high beams behind the truck. Kilmore admitted that he had collided with the Fleming's Caravan and Car. He then veered off the Violet Town exit before stopping up the road. From there, he could see cars on the hum highway screeching to a halt in the aftermath of the collision. Kilmore claimed to have seen other cars navigate around the crash and keep driving,

which led him to believe it mustn't have been that serious.

A mix of fear and panic propelled him to drive on and to not go back. A week later, Kilmore paid a repairer in Queensland $100 to fix his damaged bullbar. Checking Kilmore's mobile phone records for the week after Violet Town, Investigators rang every number with the Queensland prefix 07. Eventually, they located the repairman.

The major collision detective introduced himself over the phone and said,

“"I'm making inquiries about a hit run in Victoria where a young child was killed. I believe”

you may have repaired a truck that was involved in the collision. There was a pause at the other

end of the phone before the man replied. You're not going to tell me that the bloke who came in here killed that kid at Violet Town. I had a feeling about that bloke. I even told my mate in the factory next door that it might be him. There were Paris' voice sure because he spoke. It was clear he was upset that he hadn't trusted his instincts and contacted authorities early Iran. There was nothing that could be done to prove or disprove where the Kilmore had taken any

illegal substances in the lead-up to the collision. Investigators suspected Kilmore had deliberately collided with the other vehicles in the six months after the event.

“This would give him a legitimate reason for claiming repairs to his truck while”

concealing the damage that occurred outside Violet Town. Brett Kilmore faced 10 charges, including culpable driving, failing to stop at an accident, failing to render assistance, and a string of other offenses relating to the injuries to the flaming family. He made no formal plea and faced trial in March 2000, nearly two years after the devastating collision. Kilmore maintained that it was a horrific accident and not gross negligence.

After two days of deliberation, the jury returned a guilty verdict on all counts. Brett Kilmore was impassive as the judge read out his sentence of five years in prison with a three-year minimum sentence. Nicky's mother was angry that the three-year suspension of Kilmore's driver's license would coincide with his prison sentence instead of being instituted following his release. Relatives and friends met to celebrate what would have been

Nicky Fleming's 14th birthday the same week Brett Kilmore was found guilty. In a victim impact statement, Nicky's brother told the court that he had lost his brother and his best friend in the collision. Nicky's mother said both of her surviving children were traumatized by what had happened. Outside the court, she told reporters of her pain. "Every day I don't have my son. Every day I have that loss."

When asked about Brett Kilmore, she simply said, "I hope that every day he's in jail, he thinks about driving carefully when he comes out." Following the closing of the case, Ted Kennedy Rippen, who had stumbled upon Brett Kilmore's truck, received commendations from the chief commissioner of police. For a long time thereafter, he was known as truckstoppeded.

Seeing a constable cast and shorts of Victoria Police's major collision investigation unit,

Fender. He said, "It's an affront that somebody could just not come forward.

“It goes against Donna and standing up for yourself and taking responsibility for what you did.”

You have to be hold accountable."

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