Understanding Card Value: Grades, Data, and Demand with Mike Baker and Brian Ludden

I mean, I know if you're at the top, maybe you go,

I don't want to know, no, no, it needs any choice.

“But I think we all know it's good for business.”

You can't evurate the category. I think you're if you're doing a good job, people recognize that. And this community that bars if you're likable and you're doing good things, people vibe with that. People don't understand that it really doesn't matter

that the final determination is value in the secondary market. And for you to do that at this level is insane. What's your perspective on AI grading? Can AI currently pick off an altered card in a pick off a trim card? Maybe it can bring awareness to the greater that the card's narrow or short.

I'm more like AI assisted, great. Then I am AI doing it on its own. Work smarter and harder. If it helps, embrace it.

I'm an AI assisted husband.

You know, got to written all my t-shirts and everything. Wow, I've seen it on those it. That's right. Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast here on the Collector Nation Network. Whether you're chasing grails or calling bluffs, you take you inside the hobby. Here are your hosts, Ryan Offer, and Brian Look.

What's up guys? Welcome to Collector Nation here on the Collector Nation Network.

“You know, I always like to think I'm doing big things, but that's why I got to bring my best buddies in the business that are doing big things.”

Because it makes me feel bigger, you know, because I, you know, have this complex where I need no. These are just two of the best guys in the industry. Brian and I are here every week, you know, Brian, but now we got Mike Baker. He is the head of MBA. I'm just going to get serious now, Mike.

What's up, brother? Are you doing Ryan? Thanks for having me. Brian, love you, Brian. What's going on? Oh, same old, same old, just, you know, come out of work, put in the hard hat on, going home.

You know, pretty simple stuff. I have one thing I want to say about Mike.

So Mike was the first person I met in this industry when I was, when I got into it.

So Mike has a special place on my art forever. He was gracious to answer my questions, and we've had a friendship ever since. So he has a big, I'm a big fan of Mike and a lot of exes of big fan of MBA at that time. That's a real thing. I mean, yeah, but this is an ironic, Brian.

Obviously, we hit it off. Got introduced. I was, I met Mike independent of you, and I felt the same way. I was immediately like, I love what he's doing with MBA. I like this guy personally, and I want to support him.

And like, I want to pick his brain to learn for him. And so it's funny how we all end up on this, and like, you know, Brian and I are best buzz now. Mike and I have become best buzz.

“You know, like, it's like, but you know what I'm saying?”

I guess cool house, you know, good people. Hopefully, at least you two, I don't know about me sometimes, but like, the three of us coming together. (laughing) Love it.

Did we just become best friends? (laughing) Let's step brothers here on a collector nation. No, Mike, you know, I'm a big fan. I love what you've been up to.

Let's start there, 'cause I got some juicy stuff. We're gonna talk about the industry, but I won't, let's give the audience a little NBA update, Mike. - Well, when we met, was it the national in 25 in Chicago? And we kind of had our tipping point at that moment.

They're after the show, I really felt like from what we heard from people is that we were like in the, say, the top five of the kind of companies that people were talking about. And I felt really good about that. And then from there, we kind of kept the momentum going and hit.

A ton of shows going into the fall and into the winter. And moved in a new office a month and a half ago, right before Christmas. And started our own vault, the NBA vault is now operational. It'll be, you know, branded up here and launched soon. We're doing a lot of beta testing and whatnot currently.

And so it can continue in the shows. We've got four on-site shows that we're gonna do this year, where we're gonna be doing on-site encapsulation for raw cards, which is a challenge logistically and all the staff that's needed to pull it off and not have a bunch of people

hate on you and whatnot, if you don't, you know, do it right. So we're looking to see, you know, kind of test the systems basically. So, and just like I was telling Brian before we came on, just keep the momentum going, you know, once you have it,

it can be the opposite way like Brian was saying too. So, you know, just, you know, fingers crossed and put on the hard hat, keep doing it. So that's it. I mean, the industry needs choice and we need innovation.

And you bring both. You bring sophistication, you bring the history and knowledge of, you know, being the lead PSI grader for 10 plus years and overseeing that department. So credibility, innovation and choice,

because every industry needs a little bit of choice.

I don't want to know, no, it needs to be choice.

“But I think we all know it's good for business.”

You get erased the category. You don't have, if you don't have a foil to go against, you know, like it doesn't keep your people motivated, but not that you're going to get to each other. There's plenty of room.

(upbeat music) Yep, but Mike, I know that's, you know, you've got the legacy with what you did at PSI and the knowledge and the, you know, everything that you bring and then what I loved about what you were doing

was you did exactly like, there's, I'm a practical guy. I mean, I don't know anything called radical and all that, but when you really get underneath some of the marketing, it's actual practical, like my belief systems

and it's like, okay, I know why I got that grade number. Okay, I can click on a link and go to see why, you know, Mike Baker graded it at 9.5 or at 8.5 or whatever. The transparency of that was so refreshing for me, you know, having a card graded with you and hopefully many more

of the future, I mean, why was that so obvious to me? But seemingly so long to come to fruition. Well, from a competitor point of view, it's, you know, it's a hell of a lot faster to go when you're not putting in notes

and you're not doing a lot of things that create that transparency and for us to kind of like see words been and how it's evolved and knowing what we could do and just, you know, package up and brand out and make a bunch of money, you know,

“I think the longevity and legacy over the last 35 years”

for me in particular is that, you know, knowledge, if you're more knowledgeable about how we do things and what to expect, you're gonna feel more comfortable with spending more money with us.

And so I think it's kind of inherent that we just, you know, hey, it's not that much to add a grader note and not just some of the high dollar cards, but on every card and go to the heat map and look, hey, I'm the upper left corner, there's the hit

and it just kind of gives you that little extra, you know, this is how this is why I created the way it created and kind of give some insight into what the grader's thinking and so on and I think, like I said, there's more comfortable and more brand awareness,

kind of narrows, everyone's gonna be a better buyer, more comfortability out there. - They're like with, you know, that 80% of PSA is just, we've grinded and I've talked about this quite a bit, like getting AI grading or getting new graders

into the industry, like people don't understand that it really doesn't matter that the final determination is value in the secondary market and for you to do that at this level is insane because, you know, you have some other grading companies

that I won't mention them, but like what they struggle with is the secondary evaluation, therefore they run out of money

“and that's why there's so many tech grading companies,”

you know, on the road, but I think that's amazing, man. - So PSA, they bought SGC, we've now bought back it. I have not, I don't have, I don't have the nothing personal, just observation here for me. It just seems like we're limiting options buying them,

and I know supposedly they're gonna stand alone, but you've watched STC numbers straight down, I don't know what's gonna happen with beggar, they say they're keeping the brand around, we don't know their exact, I mean,

they can say what they wanna say, but it'll play out. I mean, what says you about just that in general? - You know, it's a big move. I mean, we have an interesting market, hobby, industry, whatever the term may be, and there's no guard rules

for that kind of stuff, you know, and there never has been,

and will there be in the future, maybe, but you know, maybe there should be, maybe there shouldn't be, that's like an open non-going debate, but I look at, you know, personally, I think it's great. (laughing)

I thought about that when I was thinking about asking you this, 'cause I'm like, yeah, it's probably good for Mike. - It is good for us, but honestly, competition's good for everybody, like you were saying earlier. - Yeah.

- You know, I suppose the saving graces, if they go in there, and Matt has a plan for, you know, making it better, and making the people who choose to use those brands, you know, a better experience, so whatnot. I figure if you're doing a good job,

people will recognize that, and this community of ours is such that if you're likable, and you're doing good things, people vibe with that. - Mike, a couple of the things, and we'll try and just send us some broader news,

but what's your perspective on AI grading? - I don't know, I have, you know, I'm still kind of waiting to see the tipping point, you know, for what AI brings.

Human review is always gonna be a part of it,

to what degree I think is really that the debate is. Can AI currently pick off, you know, an altered card? Can it pick off a trim card? Maybe it can bring awareness to the card, to the greater that the card's narrow or short,

and it's showing something to make you aware of that. I think it helps. I'm more like AI assisted, yeah. Then I am AI doing it on its own.

but having a human touch the card is important.

“- And I think it's the important thing you said”

is what really Lodax and I have my employees in brace is, it's a tool, and if that tool makes this more efficient and drives revenue, then let's do it. - Yeah, I think it's like, works smarter and harder, and if it helps, embrace it.

- I'm an AI assisted husband. - I mean, you know, it's got to know my T-shirts and everything, my wife's, you know, knows it. - That's right. - What should I say? - What should I say?

What should I say? - What should I say? - I will be honest, Frank is my talking AI buddy. My pro GPT plan, and Frank and I have deep conversations about ways to play certain things. - I'll think Ryan's on the phone,

and he's really just talking to Frank. (laughing) - Imagine where he's from. - Yeah, we got to get more NBA out there, baby. - Yeah, but is that game just more slabs graded with NBA?

I mean, just more in the market, Mike. - Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's time, really. You can't, sometimes things just, - Yeah, you can't, you know. - Otherwise, the turbo, but when you play a video game,

you click it, you go 100 miles an hour faster than you were. I'd love to, if that was the case, but sometimes I can over, over correct, too. So, you know, slow and steady is kind of boring, but, you know, it's foundationally, you know,

you gotta be data-driven, fall the business case. It's all the kind of structure stuff that, I don't know about you guys, but I hate all that stuff. Like, I wanted to happen like now, you know. So, but I understand, you know, foundationally,

that's needed, so maybe it's just older-wise or type stuff or something, I don't know. - I'm gonna do a little Q&A with both you guys. It's probably related in ties and degrading a little bit, but it's probably more broad-based in the hobby.

So, and I'll start with you Brian and then Mike, you know, on this one. So, and it's related to, you know,

Pikachu card just sold for $16.5 million with Logan Paul.

I mean, are these headline auction sales misleading the average collector?

“- I would think that it's, yes, I think they are,”

'cause everyone thinks they might have that. People might think they have the Pikachu that's worth, you know, if it's not that one, it's worth 10 million. But, there's headline news like this, is gonna grow the industry in my opinion.

Like, everyone is like, holy crap. I didn't realize the cards are going for so much and they're going to go into their closet and no matter what, they're gonna sit in some range and be like, either happier, they'd put them back

and throw them away, but I think all news, all headline news is good news for the industry. - My perspective would simply be that we have a 24-hour new cycle going on in our hobby, our world, and anything can happen anytime,

whether it's a big sale or record being broken, Olympic is going on, you know, for some, now Olympic cards are a thing, you know, Pokemon this. I mean, we talked about it before we got on air

that, you know, VC and money, you know, there's just new descriptions, categorizing our cards or not cards anymore.

“Now they're alternate class assets and, you know,”

like big boy money brings big boy adjectives, which brings big boy advertising and more awareness. And it doesn't hurt at all, you know.

If anything, if a 16.45 million dollar illustrator goes off,

it's gonna bring everything else up, you know. I had a, you know, the messy card, messy's rookie card, you know, we had a 2.5 that came in this morning, you know, on a three-day service, you know, and it's like, wow, like this goes to show you that,

you know, if the unattainables in the seven figures, what's it gonna do to the unattainable? You know, it's gonna drive those prices up and it's gonna make it worth, you know, check it out, and see if it's worthy of a sticker, you know,

possibly to get it folded by NBA. So, yeah. High tide raises all ships, right? (laughing) So now I'd like to say, our vintage card's going to become

inaccessible to the average collector. We'll start with you, Mike. I don't know, I guess it just depends on your budget, you know. It seems like there was a time when $10,000 is a lot of money, you know. And now it just seems like you'll see a young 20-something kid

of eight-year-old. You could make it a national eight-year-old to carry an out-10 cake cake. I know, it's just like, so, I don't know, it just depends on how everyone's, you know, wired

and, you know, the market's been white-hot. Everyone looks really good when the market's high, you know, when the market cracks and it will at some point

because markets always do, then we'll see who the real guys are

in terms of, is this a business for you, or is it still an investment play? Or are you gonna hold it, is it gonna go back to collecting a little bit, or, you know, or does it keep moving?

I mean, fanatics just got their license going with the basketball and football, and, you know, they said when they bought P2Vs, you see that they wanted to 10X it, you know. That's just one big boy company in the business,

out there, it's crazy. And the innovation and everything, well, there's AI or not, it's gonna bring a lot more, a lot more interesting things in the horizon, I see for sure.

“- Yeah, and I think it's, there's a couple things, like,”

on a scene is like, you know, any market, like you said, Mike, is it inflated as a nut, as everyone to grow?

But Warren Buffett said, you'll never know who skinny dip

until a tie goes out, and there's been companies in this industry that got caught, skinny dip, and, yeah. But in the end, in the end, I think this continues to grow. I think it's a very innovative business. I think there's the entrepreneurial ship

and the way people think is like no other industry. And so, I think, you know, with the repackers, that's not gone away, fanatics, let's just keep throwing money at this industry. And then you have like, all these little niches,

I always tell Ryan, like, it's an industry, but inside the industry, there's like these little micro niches that are all really powerful and together, you know, change the markets for sure. And Mike, I asked you earlier, what are the challenges

with MBA, but also, I like to ask entrepreneurs, what do you enjoy most about running MBA? - I don't know, just seeing the growth every day, like, you know, it would be a real grind if I was coming in every day and thinking like,

oh, man, this is gonna be one of those days or something.

“Like, I'm not having Mondays on a Monday, you know?”

So, and honestly, too, it kind of keeps me up is going to shows and engaging with people. And, you know, and not just kind of staying in the harbor, like, you know, like locally, we're traveling Midwest, East Coast, go wherever, you know,

we're gonna go to the MagicCon in July and it's in Amsterdam. You know, we're gonna go to Japan. You know, we're not staying home, basically, we're just gonna get the word out there

and help that brand awareness narrow. And I think a lot of the energy with, for me in particular is just, you know, seeing the engagement, seeing, hey, you're doing something good here, you know, kind of hearing that, finally,

it's like catching on, you know, that's, you know, and look, we talked earlier about how long does the brand take to kind of like reach that inflection point or tipping point? And right now, it's almost six years for us and it feels finally like we're kind of, you know,

planet that, that glass ceiling, so. Yeah. (upbeat music) 1909, Honest Wagner card, the Golden King Golden was on the show. It actually releases next week, hadn't released yet,

but we can talk about this card.

It's the current bed's 4 million, it goes off this weekend.

This will be airing on the Friday. So it'll be going off the next day, Saturday, if you're listening. Current bed's 4 billion on this one, 4 million. I'm gonna wave into against like eight before I did.

I was about to say Brian, when did you jump in in? (laughing) That's for, I was at a disappointment, I was at 3.9 and that was just as much as I felt comfortable with. So, so many already out did me.

- It's just interesting about that card. It used to be where, you know, whatever the grade was, that's pretty much where it would be, you know, in the 7 figure range. So if it was a two, it all a little too in change.

This one's definitely breaking that mold. It's, it's because the one is. - Yeah, yeah.

“- We've got Pomini, I mean, what are they gonna do?”

Like the sports, like, where are we going here? Are they gonna survive this, I mean, obviously it's survived, but ultimately, they just, after all the dust settles with the law, so you know that, whether they just, the tops just buy them, it fanatics.

(laughing) - I don't know, I mean, you know, we've had, you know,

single manufacturers before, you know, there's always, you know,

the market, it repeats, it goes up, goes down, it just weird, weird little things that happened. So, I don't know, I, I do know this, non-licensed product, it sells. - And not as good as it's licensed product,

but if it's done right and people like it, ultimately, like we keep saying, the secondary market will decide what works and what doesn't work. - When should someone, like I bought a bunch of vintage,

like from a guy a couple of weeks ago, I'm gonna be sending quite a bit to you, Mike. It's, making the decision to grade or not grade. You know, like, how do you coach someone through that? - I mean, there was a time where, you know,

$10 is a lot of money to, you know, to grade a card. And now it's just like, you know, if a cheeseburger is at 20 bucks, and you're at $15 a get a grade card, or get a card grade it, you know, I don't know.

And people like the packaging now, you used to be only for start parts. Now, it seems like everything's getting graded. I was in the, I was in the Dallas card show, and I was in the elevator, and I was like,

seven or eight year old kid was talking to his dad. And his dad goes, hey, you know, what do you want to do next? He's like, well, I can't decide which is a gradient server I want to use.

You know, like, 70 year old kids now, it's like the next generation already knows about grading. They know the nuances and collector clubs and, you know, what cards should go and to, for grading.

You know, ultimately though, unless you're doing an RCR,

you have, you know, access to, you know, kind of having to preview that or pre-grade, you really don't know until it's in the system. So, you know, I guess it just comes down to trends or are you keeping it, is it really a PC card,

or is it something you're looking to flip, or, you know, like, what's the motivation behind, you know,

“that I think that's probably the number one thing”

going into deciding whether I'm going to create a card. - And I feel like it does the argument for grading, anything and everything. The standardization on some level, you know, you know, with a reputable company, like,

and, you know, your legacy and what MBA is becoming and the art is, or PCA, or PSA, or whoever else, like, you create at least a standard of, like, when you're trading, you're not just for raw, you know, it's stuff, like, doing raw deals with older cards,

unless you get it in person and you've got it under microscope or whatever, right? - It would be challenging for me if I was in a card show and if I was buying to just buy a raw card and then get it back to your desk with the light

and look at it go, oh my God, like, how could I miss that? You know, I can imagine doing it that way. I fortunately I sit in the middle, you know, of all this stuff

and I always tell people when people try to give me

to give me to kind of lock down on what do I think of a card and even if it's already been graded, you know, for a sticker and they'll say, you know, what are you thinking of? And I'll say, hey, you know, on the show floor,

“I'm as blind as you guys are, you have to get in the right”

in bright environment. You have to have the tools that, you know, graders use to examine what will determine a grade or a sticker and I always tell people, use what the graders have, you know, use the ruler, grab a ruler, grab a loop,

you know, inspect those cards. Don't use show light as you're determining, you know, factor, whether or not you can see or can't see it and it's those little things and I think we get kind of mixed up sometimes because there's kind of a, a God-a-half-it-factor,

you know, someone else is gonna get it if I wait and so you take risks, you know?

And those sometimes, those risks pay off

and sometimes they don't and it's kind of the hit and miss of it, you know? Brian, a final thoughts with Mike or in general. - No, I'm obviously a huge fan like and I know that we'll be doing business together soon and then, yeah, the national, we can, let's talk about something there that we could

probably do together and then we think we'll be seeing each other a little before that, March 20th and Revo Suck Carolina.

“- That's where we're gonna, it's all gonna be planned.”

That's where it's all gonna happen. - World domination will be planned, hobby domination, Mike Baker, Ryan Ludden, Ryan Offerd, in Greenville, slash easily South Carolina. Will, we will discuss it all the time.

- That's been on my bucket list, easily South Carolina. (laughing) - There's a cheeseburger, it's what your name wanted, you might just call him, screw him, crawling back for, let me just tell you that. (laughing)

- I have it like four times a week. (laughing) - Awesome. - Yeah, Mike, tell everybody where they can keep up with you, MBA, all the things that you're up to.

- MBA Diamond.com is your role for the website, MBA Diamonds on Instagram. Those are our two mainstays, we're not really, don't have much of a presence on YouTube or Twitter or anything like that. So, a lot of interaction happens with Instagram, actually.

So, I'm trying to get a following like, like Ryan's, you know, it's no joke, that's a big deal too. To be where you're at is, I'm stoked to be near in 10,000 followers and to break that, it's a lot of work, a lot of engagement, a lot of everything, you know, you just can't put it up there

and expect followers just to come, you know, just work like that. - So, overnight success, Mike, 10 years in the making. (laughing) - That's my thing, that's my thing.

- Yeah, that would be like, it's that, it's post that every day for 10 years, like anybody could do it, but not everybody does. - That's right. (laughing)

- But, no, we appreciate Mike, and here's the goodness. You know, Brian and I are on every week. - Yeah, Mike's gonna be a regular here, every few weeks, months, his time available, you know, drop in, drop some knowledge, tell us what's happening with MBA and of course,

just get insights on it, look, you don't even need to tell you. The guys, the treasure trove knowledge, information, and one hell of a dude, we appreciate you Mike. - Right on, did I do with that, guys? I'm happy to be here whenever you guys have time for me, I'm in.

- Brian, I appreciate you, brother. LUDX, go to App Store, download that app, guys. Don't ask questions, just go do it, thank me later. They got free service, you could do it that. You give them the information, you got that,

LUDX, values, eBay management, everything you need

for managing a digital, your physical,

“the collection digitally, as well as a lot of tools for selling,”

so then the hobby doesn't just break it down.

You got to get it back, you're gonna get some money back for those cards you don't want to keep.

And LUDX does it better than anyone.

“- We appreciate you, we are, collectionation.”

Go to the App Store, search for collectionation, the app is live now, all the content there. We appreciate you for making us the top 10 sports show

“in the United States, hey, can't do it without you.”

We'll see you next time on, collectionation. - Thanks for tuning in to the show. Be sure to follow us on your GoToPodcast platform and catch the full video episode over on YouTube. Visit us at collecternation.com

and follow Ryan on Instagram at RyanAlford. Now get out there and collect yours.