The Internet Owes Denise Richards an Apology

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Go to chime.com/disclosures for details. Is this thing on? You guys welcome to another dumb one podcast. I am in studio with an absolute legend who I have been wanting to interview for so long

and we're here in LA and I'm finally sitting face-to-face with my girl Denise Richards.

How are you, baby? I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. No, the pleasure is mine.

Thank you so much for making time for me in your day to come out and do this interview. I'm just like, I'm so excited, I went down a wormhole about you last night and- Oh, well. Girl I got them too, so don't worry about it, but no, I literally went down a wormhole. And what I discovered was, is there's two Denise Richards.

There's one that the tabloids have painted and there's the woman that has actually Denise Richards who has the hugeest heart and is just so kind and so sweet and so loving. And I'm hoping that today at the end of this interview everybody gets to discover that one and not with the tabloids. Thank you.

Yeah. That's absolutely. But first off, we need to talk about what's really important here. We got to talk about the space lift. Yes.

This is because I'm seeing it in person now, it looks so good. So does yours. And I was so happy to see that you were open about yours too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first of all, and this is no shade to anybody in the industry, but if you're

going to get worked on just fucking be honest about it. Yeah, and I understand if there's some that don't want to say anything, but if you're asked

“about stuff, I think to say, I couldn't say nothing, you know?”

No, I feel like our job, quote unquote, as people that are online and pushing a narrative of our lives, I feel like we owe that to the public. That might just be me, but I just feel like we, especially as women, because there's such a false beauty standard, they're trying to uphold.

And I never want a little girl to look at me and be like, I want to look just like

her. It's like, girl, I don't even look like me. You know, it's like, yeah. So I always want to be honest. In the pressure of other women too, seeing other women, and I wanted to be honest with

that too, because I also want to know what's everyone using, what are they doing?

She has a completely different job than I do, and you know, I'll tell her certain things about other people that I know she'll keep a secret. And she said, I, it made her feel so much better to see that more and more women, and coming out and saying different things, because I had, I got my implants when I was 19 years old, and I was so private about it.

I never said anything to anyone, and I think the very first time it was even out was Howard

Stern asked me a question. And some people were saying, well, you know, I spoke about it, and like, well, no, I never flat out asked me, you know, because I didn't lie, right? I didn't offer the information, but then when somebody did, you were honest with you. And, you know, so I, I love that you did.

And I, you know, I, I think it's good to share, you know, what we're doing and different, you know, serums and peptides or whatever, you know, someone does. So, and yours looks so good. So does your, I'm like looking at your face, it's immaculate. What exactly did you have done, because I, I'll also tell you what I had done also.

So I told, so I went to Dr. Ben Talley, and originally I had been thinking about doing just my neck. And then it's the neck that always goes first. It's the neck. Yeah, it's always.

And then a friend of mine, she's very well known, and she's not public about hers.

“And she said to me, you have to do the whole thing.”

I'm like, I don't want to do the whole thing. I was scared. I've never done anything. I've done a little Botox, and then I did some fillers.

I felt like I looked like 300 pounds when I did though.

No, I need to. Yeah. I'll emphasize on that whenever you are done, telling me about your stories, fillers. I don't think people realize they fill up with water and they literally, like, expand your faith.

Yeah, I was, yeah, so I didn't do much, and then when I saw Dr. Ben, and he explained things to me, and I thought, you know what, it's the only analogy I could give as, like, if you remodel a house. Yeah. It's a pretty wonderful room, and it looks great, but it doesn't match the rest of the

house. And so I told him, you're the artist. His work was impeccable. I saw so many before and afters, and I just said, do it. You wanted to, I was terrified.

Did he did everything? He did the lower, the neck, the lower, face, the upper, the brow lift. The only thing he didn't do were my lower lids, he did my upper lid, but I mean, he did the whole thing. And I'm sorry, I don't know if you had the brow lift, but that is no frickin' gel.

Yeah. I did. Yeah. Okay.

Let's talk about the pain.

Because my recovery, I'm still numb. Are you still numb? Like right here. Like right here. I'm under my chin.

Oh, here. I'm good. When did you have yours? I had mine done in March. Oh, so yours still.

So I had mine done exactly a year ago. Oh, okay, okay. And so it gets better. Yeah. And that was the other thing when I was told, oh, it'll, it gets better as you heal.

And I'm like, how are we going to get better? And it does. It's like your face settles or something. It was the best thing I did for myself. No, it looks phenomenal.

And I don't think people realize how big of a surgery it is. Yeah. I thought that I was going to be up and walking around like a month. And no, I mean, I was down for the count. I had to like go into hiding for a little bit.

Like it was a lot. And so freaking painful. It's painful. So with your brow lift where your incisions have been here. Yes.

And then you had to pull those things out.

“Did you have to pull the stuff out of your head?”

No. I went somewhere that he makes his patients go to a recovery place at least a few days. And I stayed a week. And I'm so glad that I did. I don't know how anyone can take care of themselves.

I don't have to even have someone at scary. You look frightening. Yeah. No. It's Frankenstein.

I had my whole team had to take care of him. Every day they looked at me and they were like, I don't see me. There was a way to wake up. And they'd be like, it looks better. Oh, like, no, it does it.

I know. It's, uh, it's, uh, I trusted the process. And I, um, I feel like that was the most painful. I wasn't prepared for that pain. No.

It's a high tolerance of pain. Yes, ma'am. Um, but he explained that because some people that get the brow lift their incision is right here and you can see it. So I love that.

It's up and here about shit. Molls does that hurt. Yeah. I know. It's terrible.

Mine was the, um, the neck. I felt like I was choking. Did you get fat sensation? Or you felt? I think my head hurt so bad.

I didn't notice that. She's like, girl, I had other problems. Um, but it didn't. That pain, well, uh, I heard right before I went in. Oh, your head could hurt.

And I was like, oh, how bad can, you know, I was a little nervous about that. And then when I was told, I'll be all wrapped up.

“And I thought, what am I going to feel claustrophobic?”

But you're so out of it from that surgery. I, it's like, I didn't even know my head was wrapped really. Yeah, that's the day. And you took it up. Um, yeah, I was, it's a headache that you can't explain.

It's not like a migraine. Um, it's like you just had your face peeled back.

And unless you've had your face peeled back. You don't know what it feels like. I know. Um, but it does, you know, the first night was the roughest for me. Yeah.

I don't know for you. Mine was the first night because like the anesthesia just didn't agree with me. I was under for like about six hours. And it was, I was too. Yeah, it was brutal.

And then I think like around day six or seven. I was just like, I want off this ride. And my doctor was like, you're on it for the next year. I was like, back, pulling off this ride. Um, but certainly back to the, the filler situation.

Um, I just want to, for the girls at home that are listening that do get filler. Just be careful when you get in your face because it literally expands. It gets lumpy. It migrates to other places in your face. And then you end up having to get it melted and getting a face lift anyway.

Right. So fire you. I would just do minimal Botox. And then when the time comes get get that. I built back.

Yeah.

And you know, I always thought I wouldn't get a face lift.

And I'm one that says never stay never got. I was like, oh, I'm never getting excited. I don't want to not look like myself. Right. But I think you look amazing.

Like you look like you look like just refreshed and like you look young. Like it looks so good. I'm going back on the 8th because he didn't do under my eyes either. And so I'm going back on the 8th to get the skin pinch under the eyes and some more fat transfer. So I'm like, and then I'm done.

I swear. You look amazing. And that's the thing too. I feel when you go to someone good. Yeah.

And that's just because someone's a surgeon.

“This is the other thing that I think it's important for girls and young women.”

And women that aren't as young to know that it's. You have to go to someone really reputable and skilled just because they're a plastic surgeon. Doesn't mean they're good. Yes. You need to look at their work.

The before and months after. Yeah. Don't look right after. Like six months after a year after. Like you want somebody who's going to do natural work.

You don't want to look like cat lady or another. Come on. Definitely. And you look like you, but it's the same thing refreshed. Thank you.

I appreciate it.

I feel like it's never enough.

You know, like I feel like we're our worst critics because we're always looking at ourselves. Oh, I can't. Yeah. For sure. We're women.

We're never having a week. We don't like comments on it. Someone else will anyway. I don't like your flaw. You'll see.

Listen. I'm so tired of the fucking internet. I'm tired of it. All right. So let's circle back and let's talk about.

Before Hollywood. Got ahold of you. You're born in Illinois and your family moved to California and you were a cheerleader. Can we like go back to, you know, when Denise was just before Denise was known as Denise Richards. Yeah.

I grew up in Illinois. My dad worked for the phone company. We were, you know, my dad was just a hard working. We didn't have money. My mom was stay at home.

My mom, they got married. My dad was 21. My mom was, um, I think 16 or 16, 20. They had me at 17 and 21. So he was just out of Vietnam.

And, you know, they were young parents. Wow. He was a Vietnam vet. He's a Vietnam vet. You have right after he got out.

He and my mom got together and then got married. And we just grew up, we were, I just had, you know, I don't even know what normal is. But just a, well, we were part of the Nielsen family for people that don't know back then.

“That's how they saw which TV shows were popular.”

They put a little Nielsen box on our TV. We were your typical, all-American family before. Yeah. So they could see the ratings and things. So, you know, my mom had dinner at six o'clock every night.

We had to make sure we were there. We guns were a family time. We went to church every Sunday, I was raised Catholic. And then my dad saw a TV show, Battle of the Network Stars. It was this competition show for people that don't know.

And late 80s of celebrities that would compete. And it was in January. And my dad could not believe. Because he was climbing telephone poles in the winter in Illinois with blizzards and stuff. And he just got so tired of the weather and up and moved.

Our family after he saw people wearing shorts and California. Yeah. And literally moved us. I was, I just finished my freshman year in high school. It was such a hard move for me to make that transition.

And then in high school, my sister and I, we both all,

We always had the same job together.

We worked at Hognaz and basketball events. I had bad groceries. I had all of our things and did all that. And then my mom entered me into a model search. And I came in second in the, an agent from LA saw me and signed me.

And so I started driving up to LA and started modeling doing teen magazine and stuff like that. And then I went to New York to Pan right after I graduated high school. I can't even believe my parents let me go. Yeah.

“That's what if they knew really how that was.”

But how was it? How was it? You know, I was so naive. I was just, I was a very sheltered. My parents really sheltered my sister and I.

You know, his brother had a lot of drug addiction. And so they really sheltered my sister and I, my mom said my mom passed away years ago. But she said before that she did that, you know, I'm on hand. She felt that she sheltered my sister and I little too much because I was so, so I was so naive.

I was, I was always had a good, good gut instincts about people and how to good.

I had on my shoulders. I never got into any, you know, drugs or alcohol or the wrong people. I was just, I was too scared because my dad put the fear of God and us with that. And so I, when I started modeling in Japan, it was, what's interesting is I was, I was very flat back then.

“I couldn't even fit into a Victoria's secret bras.”

And yeah, I was really tiny. That was the model. Look back then. Also, that's what people wanted. Well, actually, maybe you know that, yeah, this was kind of like it was,

Kate Moss, before Kate Moss, but it was like Cindy Crawford. Yeah. The love show is body, the Cosmopolitan cover. The body she furned. Yeah.

And so in Japan it worked because they, well, they wanted me to do lingerie. And it's funny years later. I did playboy and all of that. Back then, I remember. But how old are you?

I was 18. But I looked 15. Yeah. I looked so young. And I told the agency, I'm not going to model brazen underwear.

And they almost dropped me. But I was making money with some of the other jobs that I did there. So they kept me. My dad was ready to fly out there and bring me home. Because he thought it was like something else.

Did you walk there by yourself? I did. With a modeling agency like they came and scouted girls in LA. Yeah. And then brought a bunch of us out there.

But I flew there by myself. Which I can't believe it. Like I didn't know anything. Yeah, this is just so nice. It's a town girl on a flight to Japan.

Yeah.

“They don't take care of us the way they, I think, told the parents that they do as far as security.”

Right. Like that we were rolling on her own. And then I went to New York after that.

But I always wanted to act.

And so I just moved back to LA, moved to LA. And then I lived in several different places. And just got an agency. I was signed with the Children's Division. And Harry Gold, Tracy Gold, the actress who was on growing.

Right. So yeah, her dad had an agency. And I played like 14, 15 years old. And because I was over 18, at that point, I was like 20. I was able to work long hours without having to worry about that.

And so I just did build my resume doing even one line here. What was the, saved by the bell was one of my first jobs. Yeah. I got my sad card between that and Dugi Houser. I got tapped partly with one and then the sad card with the other.

Your lore goes on forever. Like when I discovered like you did married with children, saved by the bell. I mean, like you get 90210. Like this was like the icon. This was like when Hollywood was like Hollywood.

Yeah. I agree with you. Not the same anymore. And I feel like you got to be a part of just history. I'm so grateful for that time.

“And I think a lot of other actresses and actors that I know.”

That, you know, we would. It's such an nostalgic time driving around with our Thomas guide. There was no, you know, ways back then. And yeah, I would just, we would just go, there was like a pilot season. Yeah.

You know, during that time of year, you would hope you'd book a pilot. And because I was able to build up my resume, I was able to, you know, audition for other jobs, but I was so green. And, but I was so focused, like I was so really loved doing it and had my acting classes. And then married with children, the producers cast a pilot.

And I auditioned for that and got it. Didn't, we thought, oh, married with children. It'll go to series. It didn't. And then Aaron Spelling did a pilot.

And this was around the, you know, Mauro's place. And nine out to one out. Got I loved Mauro's place. I was a huge Mauro's place fan. I was too.

And the nine out to one out. I did both of those shows as a guest star too. And I was so scared working with all the actors. Yeah. So intimidated.

And it was harder for me to do a line. I was terrified. Really? Yes. I was just so nervous.

Yeah. Because sometimes like a lot of those jobs. I only had a line or two, you know. And that to me was harder to do than a scene. Because you had to like really nail it.

Yeah. And it's like you don't want to overdue the one out to lines. Yeah. But yeah. And then I, so we booked the pilot with Aaron Spelling a bunch of us.

And it shot was called Pier 66. And it shot and Florida. And we thought this is going to be the next Mauro's place. And it didn't get picked up. What does that feel like?

Like when you pour your haul into like a roll. And then it doesn't get picked up. Is it like hard? Yeah.

First of all, getting the job.

Right. No one who I was.

“And so I'd have to audition several times to, you know, read with other actors.”

So then you get the part. And you're so excited. And then, especially at the level of Aaron Spelling who has, you know, everything, television. Yeah. And same with the producers of Mary with children at the time.

Mary with children was doing so well. You think, oh, this will get picked up and be a huge hit. Yeah. And then it didn't. It's just such a let down.

But I always felt to every job that I didn't get that one job that I did.

It was so worth, like, you know, busting my ass and just learning. Learning really hard and learning. Yeah. Even doing one line on set. Sometimes I'd wait around for 12 hours before they've got to me.

And I would really watch the other actors and try and learn. Because in acting class, I felt like they didn't teach us hitting your mark and doing the one that I went to. And those are the little things that were great for me to watch other actors and really try to learn. And then Starship Troopers came. We just hover over and actually I auditioned for.

I came close with showgirls and then. Oh, with them. Yeah, that movie I to this day is still one of my favorite movies because I'm a Vegas girl. I know. So like, you know, during my generation of growing up, I'm 46.

That was like, you know, maybe in a dancer and stuff like that. So that was like my withering height. You know, like that was like my iconic movie that you look up to whenever you think of like movies growing up. And where were you when that came out? Like I was in Vegas.

“Yeah, and I think what year did that come out?”

Do we know? I might have already been 90s. Okay, so I was like 95. Oh, so I think it came out in 1995. We had them look it up.

So I was 15, but I was on my way to being a stripper. You know, so growing up in Vegas back then dancing was so much more glamorous than it is now. Like, and it wasn't so oversaturated.

So I always say that if you grew up in Vegas in that era a lot, not everybody, but a lot of girls wanted to be either a show girl or a dancer.

And if you couldn't make it be in a show girl, you became a dancer. So that what role did you Elizabeth's role? Oh, wow. Okay. So when I auditioned for that, and then when Starship Tubers came around auditioned for that, obviously.

Because that was a long process over a few months. They went everywhere casting. And then it came down to like, I went in for five or six times. Casper and I, at the end, it was just us. Yeah, we did a screen test together.

And we were like, we found it was just us. And we were like, well, if we don't get it, we've really fucked up. You know what's so crazy is that initially the movie didn't do great. But then now it's like known as one of the greatest satricle sci-fi films ever made. Like it's a cult classic.

I know. It's so funny how I just started going to Comic-Con. It's about a year and a half ago with them, with the cast from Starship. And it's just so humbling, meeting the fans and how their kids watch it.

My kids haven't even seen them will be.

“I don't even, I think for a long time they didn't even know I was in it.”

I think it's because you're mom. Yeah. You know, so it's like, we see you every day. We don't need to say on the movie screen. It's like when I wrote my book, my family didn't even read it.

It was like, can you guys read the book, please? You know? Yeah. But I think it's because they just, they know the real us. So it's like they don't need to, you know, see our art.

I guess is what you could say. I agree. Yeah. It's funny because they don't even know how the stuff I've been in. Sammy saw a TikTok of me on friends.

And she was like, mom, you did friends. And I said, yeah, she was like, why didn't you tell me? And I said, well, what do I say? Well, by the way, I did friends. Let's pivot real quick.

You know, as before we get into your wild things era and talk about your girls. Because I follow, it's Sammy. Yeah. I follow Sammy on TikTok. I love her.

She's spicy. She's very spicy. But you know what? I feel like, and we can cut this out if you want me to. But I feel like she's kind of Charlie's karma.

In a way. You don't have to cut it. Yeah. I feel like she gives him a run person. You know, and he needs that.

He does because she out of all the kids I feel stands up to him. Yes. And, you know, and he does need it. You know, we all do. Yes.

And, but yeah, she's she's I love that she. I wish I had her confidence when I was her age. However, I do wish sometimes she filtered herself. Yeah. A little bit when she's saying stuff sometimes.

Like, can we not have another headline, please? Right. But I'd rather her. Be the way she is than, you know, have to. I love that she's not afraid to be who she is.

And that's something that I really admire in her. And she and Lola cannot be more opposite. So opposite. And that's what I was just about to say.

I said that. You know, we got Sammy over here. His OF model. I know. I know.

So yeah, I know it's funny. How did you raise such polar opposite children? I don't know. That's the thing. Well, in my dad reminded me, my sister and I are very opposite too.

But I don't know. They don't even look alike. My girls. No. Not at all.

It's like I was with the milk man or something. But it has they both look like both of you in different ways. It's really. Yeah. Crazy.

If you see like I watched an interview with the three of you guys. You and your girls yesterday. And you can see like the mannerisms, the eyes, the like facial structure. Like one of them, like you can see Charlie and both of them. You can see you and both of them.

So it's like, I don't know. It's like a perfect mixture and they're both beautiful. Oh, thank you. Yeah, of course.

And you're just such an amazing mom.

You really are. Like you were saying that. Raising children in the limelight is not easy. I haven't had to do it to the extent that you have. But considering everything that you've been through and had to bring those babies along with you.

Is a testament of the woman that you are because they're such good. They're good kids. You know, like Sam is not hurt anybody. She's just on TikTok. No, it should live in her life.

You know, I'm full of funny sometimes she'll say something. I'm like, you posted that. Yes, yeah. I'm like, all right. What is your relationship like with both of them?

I have a good great relationship with both of them. Right now they're living together. Oh, wow. They're staying together. I shouldn't say they're living together.

That's saying together. That's amazing. Because I did see a little they had like a little tip online a couple of months ago. She's like, oh, yeah, it's normal. I know they say they'll get into it whatever.

And then they'll call me from lunch. And I'm like, I'm so glad the sisters are getting along right now. Yeah, no, we it's funny because I have a. They're more open with me than I was with my mom when I was their age. And I had a great relationship with my mom.

“But I think I was always afraid of being judged.”

And I was always very, you know, carefully even when I did interviews and stuff like that.

I just was. Not a hundred percent myself a version like a part of me. There was things I held back and stuff because I was just such a people pleaser. And I love that the girls are just and I don't know if it's because of their generation that they're so exposed to so much on line and that sort of thing or if it's because they were raised in Hollywood.

And you know, and that's something too. They both have said to me that it's hard to be kids of famous parents. And I can't even relate to that because I grew up in Illinois and I didn't have to deal with, you know, from the time there were babies, the paparazzi were at the hospital. And so, you know, to them, it's normal, but it has effect had an effect on them.

Not necessarily, you know, negative. It's different from how some of their other friends and how I was raised. But, and I can't imagine, you know, being now for them to even even stuff going on in my life for them to hear about it. It's weird. Yeah.

And with my divorce with their dad, they were so little. I thought, okay, by the time they're older, they're not. Can't hear anything wrong. The internet has changed tremendously. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's like, you don't bring up shit from 20 years ago and it goes viral. And you're like, right. Right. It's happening.

Yeah. Yeah. You can't hide anything.

“But I think it has circle back to what you said about that they're more open with you.”

I think that shows that you've created such a safe space with them that they are, they feel safe enough with you to come to you and tell you everything. So that's amazing. Thank you. I tried to raise them in that.

And my mom did raise me.

My mom was never judgmental for me.

It was more of being a people pleaser, but I've tried to raise the girls to not, we don't judge. We may not agree with people's choices, but to not judge. And I may not agree with certain things they say or do, but I'm not making. It's hard. Like, I just, I'm not saying you can't do that or don't do that or don't be who you are.

I might not agree with certain ways. Just like they don't agree with certain ways. Things believe me. They don't believe me. Things that I do.

You're like, I did it for you. You know. So when it comes to their relationship with their father, which we'll get into Charlie in a little bit, can we touch base on both of their relationships with Charlie and like, how do you encourage them to have that relationship? Because to me, and this is me speaking freely, is that he seems like he's kind of hard to get along with.

So just from what I've gathered from Sammy's TikToks and stuff like that too.

“Well, I think so during our divorce, which was so public, I wanted the girls to have their relationship with him.”

Without, you know, any negativity around it, I wanted, I wanted them to know their dad as dad, not as Charlie Sheen.

And I didn't want the kids to only know about their father from what they were going to read about them. And so every any time he was in a good space where they could spend time with him, I encouraged it.

I never spoke badly about him in front of the kids.

I never would anyone that was hired in my house. The shit stays out the door. You don't, we don't talk negatively about him at all. And to the point where they've discovered things later, they're like, "Why didn't you tell me this about?" You know, and I'm sure there's things that they're saying to their dad, "Why didn't you tell me this about Mark?"

So it goes both ways and I know that. But I really wanted to protect the innocence of the father-daughter relationship as much as I could. And there's no handbook for it too, and I didn't know that was such a crazy and same time. I got more insane, actually, after we were divorced. Like during his marriage to the Tiger Plant phase.

Which we'll get into that vlog about. Jesus Christ. And then, you know, with his partner, he's like, "I was trying to live." I would get dragged into all of that.

But you know, I will say, even Charlie always knew to that no matter what I was there for him.

He could call me in two o'clock in the morning, and if you needed my help, I would be there.

“And I think that's the most amazing gift that you could ever give somebody as them knowing that you will always be there for them.”

Sometimes it's selfless on your part or our part or women who do that. But at the same time, I think undying loyalty is just so special and so priceless. Oh, thank you. It was, I wanted him to be the best version of himself that he could be. And I always supported him.

I always kept his secrets. I never extorted him. It made me sad seeing some of the people that were around in his life. That were doing things.

It was hard to watch actually.

But even if he would get mad at me about something or whatever, he knew he could count on me. And he knew he could tell me anything. And I wouldn't judge him. I wouldn't be there. And so we went through a really up and down time over the years to it.

Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to the girls, how is their relationship with him now? Right now it's, I think it's good. It has its moments because sometimes it's better than others. Which is normal, I think, for teenage girls too.

I do think that's normal.

“And that's how it is for teenage girls and their moms too.”

You guys, there's going to be some times you guys like each other and there's going to be some times you don't. Right, I do think that there should come a time where they should really talk to their dad. Because so much happened when they were growing up and ask them questions and why. And feel that, you know, because there were times where he wouldn't show up on Christmas. And I would, I would have to lie and make up stuff.

And I protected him. I would say, I wasn't going to tell them the truth. How do you tell this to little girls, what's really going on? And some people were with judge me and I got to tell them. I would have, like how I say that, you know, there are already so fragile and going through.

You know, even though I try to keep as much from them as possible, they're aware. They pick up on energy and also there was a time their brothers lived with us for about a year. So obviously they knew some shit was going on there. And, you know, I did the best I could. It wasn't perfect. And there's probably a lot of things I would have changed and done differently.

But, you know, I think that there's, in my opinion, I feel there's still, like, the elephant in the room that. Them, they're all not addressing. And I hope one day that they feel comfortable enough and safe enough where they could just be open and safe certain things. Charlie's very, we have a great relationship. He lives close to us actually and has boys lived with him right now. And, you know, I can give him shit and joke around with them.

And, you know, he respects me and I respect him too. And I want only the best for him and want him to do well. And he knows if he needs anything up here.

“And, and I think it's important for us always to maintain a relationship.”

We have that, we have our daughters and that would be something that I think along the way that was hard for him. I would say, no matter what's going on with you and I, let's put our shit aside. And they don't need to be dragged into anything. Yeah. You know, oftentimes that wouldn't happen and it is what it is.

But, at the end of the day, he knows that I only have their best interest in his too. Yeah. Is there a part of you that still feels like you might be in love with Charlie? No, and that's a thing. Like some people, I think, misunderstood. Like, and with, I did his documentary.

I love him as their dad. Yeah. You know, and it's not even a brother's sister relationship. It's best friends. You guys have been through some shit.

Yeah. I wouldn't say best friends. Yeah. We're friends.

“But I mean, do you know what I just talked about in the way it can talk to some other friends in mine?”

And I love him as they're, I will always have love for him being their dad.

But as far as like a romantic love. No. No. At all. I'm glad we cleared that up because I did watch the documentary.

And from the way they shot the documentary, it kind of made it. I don't want to say they made it seem like you still had feelings for him. But there's so much emotion there with you guys. I think there's a lot of emotion because there's things that he didn't even know. A lot that he did not know and how I had to like navigate so much shit.

Yeah. Oh, a lot. Let's talk about it. We'll we'll circle back to the wild things thing in a minute. But you and Charlie.

So take me back to when you and Charlie first met. You guys met on the filming of Good Advice. Yeah.

We met when we did that movie together.

And at the time, I was with my ex who he passed away a couple months ago. Patrick Moldinho. He was a friend of mine up thirty seven years and we were on and off for like five years. And at the time we were still together when I met Charlie and then Charlie was going off to do spin city. And then a year later, I...

Oh, and there's there's already 2013. We're on the right track right now. The biggest advantage of Shopify for me is that we don't have any technical forecasts. We can all go over the back end and the front end. And so it was like in Dubai. The online shop.

We're in Shopify Farad. Then we're in the platform that's actually Farad. They're just one of the reasons. And our whole business left over Shopify. Now there's a customer test of Shopify.com.

Patrick and I had just broken up. And then I did like an arc of four episodes on spin city. And it was during spin city that we started to date.

“And then and there was it was like over a period of I think two months that I was doing the show.”

Because it's a couple weeks on and we got whatever. And we thought we're not going to tell anyone. But it was quite obvious that we weren't in it. But like what a hot couple dude. Young Charlie seeing Charlie Sheen and then you.

I mean, come on dude. Like young Charlie was hot. He's very handsome. Yeah. Yeah.

No, he's still very handsome. Is he? Yeah. And he, you know, he's very shy. And when I met him, people think that, oh, she reformed the bad boy.

That's not the case. He was, I don't know the person that well, I got to know after. You know, right. During the Tiger Love Day. But at the time I didn't know the person.

The person I met was had been sober for four and a half years. Went to AA was very focused and just a very calm, nurturing person. And that's why I fell in love with. Do you think that's the real Charlie? I don't know because I went back and forth with that too.

Like I'm one hand. I do know that, you know, whatever went sideways with our marriage. The one thing I don't doubt is I don't doubt that he didn't love me.

“I really believe that he loves me, you know.”

But I feel I was also very ignorant and educated in addiction. And many people would ask me when I got to gather with him. Are you, aren't you afraid he's going to relapse? And I naively said no. And I think part of it, I didn't know that person.

Especially because you're dad dealt with addiction. So he's sheltered with his brother. Yeah, much from it. Right. Yeah, dad dealt with the addiction with his brother.

So he sheltered you from it so much.

And then you marry and add it, which is, you know, just, that just goes to show that generational trauma and curses are always that play.

Yeah. And even being growing up in young adult in Hollywood. And I know people are not going to believe this. But I had never seen cocaine because I people that I was close with new. I didn't do drugs.

It actually scared me. I was not, I didn't see it until during his tiger blood days. That was the first time I actually saw a cocaine person. Wow. Tell him about this story.

Well, there's many with that. She's like, there's not just one. No, there's several. Yeah, no, I was so naive. And then when things went sideways, they went sideways.

But during his tiger one days, I, I would, you know, his security would often call me to help him because they would get fired if they knocked on his bedroom door. They would, he was just so bad. It was just really bad. And he was like in the the deepest like Brock bottom. Yeah.

And it was actually a shame that people around him because he was on such a hit show made a boatload of money. And they didn't want, you know, they, almost in a weird way, enabled it.

For some reason, everybody around them starts becoming a yes man. Oh, yeah. And nobody tells them no that ego goes away out just crazy. And then they're literally spiraling hitting rock bottom. It's like a tail as old as that.

Yeah, because if they did say no, he'd fire that. Right. And if you wanted to work for him, you had to do it. He wanted. I don't think he would care that I'm sharing that.

But, you know, it was hard for me to watch that. Everyone turning their head to how bad he was. And almost propping him up to do his show at that point. I feel like during your guys' divorce back in that time. The table is really villainized to you.

How are you feeling during this? Like you're terribly, you're six months pregnant. Right? You filed for divorce.

What was that factor of, like everybody's always like,

"Oh, well, what made you leave?" And it's like, what was your decision to just start your life over as how I would... I've never publicly said there was an incident where I had no choice. I felt to, I had to get out. And that's when I filed.

And then we, uh, kind of reconciled a little bit right after that. And part, I knew it wasn't going to work. But I felt, you know, I came from my mom and dad were married until death to us part into my mom passed away. And so that was my role model.

And I didn't want to be divorced. So I wanted to know too that if my girls ever talked to me about it,

“that I could honestly tell them I did everything I could to try to keep the marriage together.”

Even though I knew it wasn't going to work. And so we reconciled shortly. And then after that, you know, it's a whole... It was a different time to... And I was tying the girls this.

So there wasn't an Instagram where instantly there would be stories out there. It was a weekly tabloid. And it would run all week. And then there would be another thing. And there was a time I think I was on the cover of all these tabloids for two and a half years.

No. I'm going to right now with my divorce. Everything we do is a freaking headline and it's just like I couldn't even imagine going on.

But so it was an awful time for me because I never gotten bad press before.

Right. And I felt that I'm just trying to protect my girls. And the hard thing with all that too is that it affected my career. Right. That's what I was saying.

Like what's the hardest thing? Is it like surviving that situation?

“Or just the people not believing you that are around you?”

The people that were closest to me knew the truth. Right. And but then there were people that there were people that works for me. That we're starting to believe the tabloids. And I was so shocked.

And I said and then the people that came out. Yeah. But how did you sit? Like how did you sit? So I don't just take it on the chin like that because that is that you are beauty.

You are grace because that's like I have the hardest time because I have the podcast. So anytime something comes up I'm like hey guys. You know like and but you didn't do that you sat just so hard. It was hard. Yeah.

Well first of all I didn't know would go on as long as it did.

And I think in hindsight if someone said you're going to have to deal with this for a few years. I think out of some will fuck that. I'm going to say something. Yeah. It was very very difficult because also he was on a network television show on by a studio.

And he was like loved by him. He's by every you know men wanted to be him and women wanted to be with him and I was just. It was a woman is so crazy too. I know but it happens and they just think oh she's the gold digging bitch that's trying to take him down. And I just true.

I really just wanted to protect the girls and later he thanked me. You know he knew. I didn't know it would be so public. I was surprised by that. And I really thought well this is my personal life.

Why can't we separate it? But I lost jobs. I couldn't work. That was so hard for me. And at one point I really had to form a bubble around myself because I thought and I have a really good family.

We're really close. And if it weren't for them who knows what would have happened or my close, you know, core friends who are my family too, I could have gone one way or the other. Like it was to where I was like I can't go into a depression and feeling like everyone hates me and this it was awful. And you know I just had to block everything out and I told everyone I don't I can't read anything.

I can't hear about it.

“At the end of the day what matters is my daughters and my family, my core group and you know when at the end of the end of the day what's there for you.”

Is them and do I really have I don't. I felt like the truth will eventually come out. I didn't want to be the one to say stuff.

Sometimes as years went on and interviews I would briefly say certain things but I always try to be respectful.

Because I need time if I did say anything would backfire anyway. Right. They twisted it. They twisted it. But then it was interesting then when stuff went down then it flips.

Yeah. And then even the studio when they things happened with him they would pull my documents from court and use that as third offense which I get but it was hard to have everyone shit. Oh man. So I'm going to get a job. It was really tough.

“Do you still hold anger for that or do you look back at it compassionately now?”

I kind of like you mean towards Charlie or towards everyone.

It's like PTSD. Yeah. I didn't have anger at it. I had hurt that. I was so misunderstood.

You know and that how could that be portrayed that way with you know I was just trying to protect my daughter. Yeah. So I wasn't you know trying to tear anyone him down. You know I wanted him to be the best he could but I also wasn't going to put my kids in a certain situation that I didn't feel was safe. Your mama bear.

Yeah. So that was just that that was a very difficult time and then I lost my mom during that time which was really awful. And I just felt like I couldn't let my life crumble. I had to babies you know Sammy and Lola were our year apart. Yeah.

They're 15 months apart. They're Irish twins. So you're going through all of this. You're in the you guys are having the most brutal divorce publicly and in the midst of his whole tiger blood era. You take in his two twins from his other marriage to broke.

Yeah.

“And I remember watching that as it was happening and I even thought to myself like this woman is a saint.”

Like you are literally getting drugged through the freaking media and just left and right. You can't do anything right. And in the midst of it all you're going to save these babies and you have them live with you. You said earlier for about a year or a year they were. What put that what what what's going to your mind as you're taking these babies and and in this situation.

They would a lot of people don't know is before that happened. I was watching them quite often and Brooke whenever she she would call me and ask me can you take the boys. And I would take them and sometimes it would be like for a few weeks and then they would go back to her. And so they're pretty school got to know me they got to know my dad you know we got them to school and and then she would take them back and it would just be pretty. I'd be accused of all kinds of stuff and I and then every time I'd be like next time she calls I can't do this it's too much drama but at the same time I wanted to be there for the boys and it's my daughters brothers.

And then when the stake got involved that they would ask like the people in the boys lives who would be the best person to take them and they had said me and. And so then the state you know where there's a whole thing with that too which is very difficult which I didn't know. That's a difficult process to go through and to be part of actually.

“So you know I had them for almost a year and and then they went I believe to Brooks brother after after me and then I didn't see them for quite a few years which was really hard.”

So but do you still have a relationship with them? Yeah, I do. Yeah, we reconnected a few years ago and I'm so glad and they remember they were little but I you know and a lot of people asked me about that too and it's. They're they're my daughters brothers too so whatever's going on with all of us adults it's it is what it is and you know that I would. I could imagine my brothers or sisters not you know being in the state system and having to go live with foster parents that no one even knows right so I wanted to be there and to help them even though it was very difficult being part of that whole system.

But I you know wanted to do what I could for them.

It's amazing what you did.

What's your relationship with Brooke that that these days? I haven't seen her in a long time unfortunately you know she's been dealing with her addiction. And it's it's sad and it's tough you know I know that we'll talk again. Yeah, and do you have an open door policy. Or call me you know whenever even when she's not better to call I'll still talk to her and stuff.

What do you think your compassion comes from because you have so much compassion for people and so much empathy even when it's not being respected. I think it's how I was raised by my parents my mom you know I Charlie would be like put to you.

I grew up you know my grandma owned a barn was constant and there would be these you know.

Customers that you know don't they have one leg or whatever and my my grandpa had a one leg. And you know and when I was explaining our relatives and he asked me that I'm like well shit.

“I'm gonna look at everyone that way but I think I just grew up with you know a lot of people in our in the family that had certain things going on.”

And my mom would always just we just didn't judge and we just love people and embrace them and I didn't grow up with money and so I anytime as I started making money to and see people that are less fortunate or need help with something I want to be there and help.

I think obviously I think obviously my mom and dad.

Yeah absolutely so let's go back to the wild things because we cannot have the a podcast without talking about wild things let me get to to it in my notes because do you feel like wild things was kind of like your break out that like kind of made you. A house hold name and I know it was because of the kiss but I mean I just think the whole movie in that whole era was you know freaking iconic so take me on this journey with wild things. So I had just shot starship troopers and audition for wild things completely oh and by the way in starship troopers Paul for hoping.

Before we started shooting we had a big. We got to do pre-production which doesn't happen on a lot of movies but this one it did where we had a couple months to prep and everything called me in his office and you said. So I wrote a scene and he showed it to me and you're going to be topless in it and this and that and I was scared to death like I was so hard to get this movie. Mind you I auditioned for show girls right and I said you to make it the whole time. And so I said to Paul I so Paul I don't I can't do that scene it's not.

He's like oh you we're going to be naked from me and show girls like oh yeah but that's a completely different heart it's a different. This is just yeah I said this makes no sense for the scene if I was in the shower scene with everyone else okay yeah you're naked in a shower but this is just so you could see my tips and I said.

“I just and I I left I drove away crying called my age and I said I think I just got fucking fired.”

And then he was like I mean I told I was so scared I was going to get fired so cut to I auditioned for. While things and John McNott and the director of wild things spoke to Paul and asked how I was to work with and saw some dailys because starship hadn't been out yet. And then I just I read with Ned when and I got the part and I was so nervous to do not only is it's not just topless. You're making out yeah back then I had a three sum with the teacher it was like so inappropriate the whole thing. I feel like it was a brilliant movie and that just because of that shock value moment it just literally like just took over the whole movie.

“Yeah and like so I think did you feel like it got lost in translation because of that same not really because I think a lot of people.”

I thought from the trailer oh we get to see two girls naked with each other you sing and then you know three sum with the shampings or certain things that ended up in the trailer but I think then once people saw the movie they saw there's a story here. Yeah some plot twist at the end and at the you know at the time you know never was off of a scream as part of a five and Matt Dylan was something about Mary and you know these I was the unknown in the movie and. I was terrified to shoot that movie and very scared can you take us to the day of filming that scene.

Yeah well the first scene we did. I believe it was never and I we did that one first the pool scene the pool scene was the first no not the first scene.

All right the first naked scene. I was like I threw you to the walls. Yeah no we we shot for three months down in south beach and it was great to film there and beyond location I was scared again I was like the nobody and all these big actors that I was working with and I'm so intimidated. We waited to shoot those scenes because the director he wanted us to be comfortable and I'm so glad that he did it right right like as you guys worked together and got to know it. So I think it was I felt comfortable with neve and we just talked to each other it was actually easier to shoot with her that way than with a guy because like with a girl you can say can we can share our insecurities or part of our part here.

Yeah point that out and especially I was so young and you know it was one of my first big jobs too so I wasn't going to necessarily.

What has Denise Richardson secure about in this moment well it's no I mean I was in every I mean I everything I was so naive so young and. Intimidate and buy that because they were just debate on yeah and Matt Dylan was fine back at yeah he versus era yeah so and also was and the content of the movie and back then it was very resched for the time and I think because they actually thought it was younger than I was they kept asking and you know you didn't have to hand over.

“I'm like no I'm really I think I was 25 25 26 but I was like a young 25 26 year old you still have a young essence to you like sitting across from you now you do you're young you appear to be younger than you are so that's just a.”

Beautiful blessing that you got in this life sister but I was also just naive and you know I didn't anyway there was a lot of shit that happened on that. What is your favorite scene that is in wild things that nobody ever asks you about because of the scene obviously that everybody wants to know about is there like another scene that you love. I mean I will tell you the people that I I always remember like off camera when I'm working like when people ask me what your favorite movie and stuff like that it's I always think of the moments that all of us actors off camera time in my life.

I really enjoyed working with Kevin Bacon and Theresa Russell who played my mom she was awesome and she was so good at giving me advice and then you know Bill Murray was down the hall. And he would run I would see him going to the gym and he'd run with his cup of coffee like a ceramic cup it was like to go up and going on the treadmill and I just thought he was so funny he was great with me by the way it's not him that was an appropriate. But it was I really it was great to work with Kevin and Theresa in particular they were very protective of me I felt and watched over me and gave me you know really good advice Kevin's an OG.

“He was just in something new that we were looking through movies the other night and I was like Kevin Bacon still acting like that's crazy.”

I love he had his wife and his kids there and he's a family man and just very professional and very he's a class at he seems like it.

I never never any weird shit has ever came out about him like he's just like a standard.

No he's a good person so that I I really enjoyed working with them and then but when wild things came out it was starship troopers came out and then like and we went on a huge press tour with all of that and then four months later wild things. And it was like the four of them was the first to call me and he was he was very complimentary like so you got naked. You wouldn't get naked like you got naked for this movie and I'm like, well Paul it's a three some scene. Yeah, you know, it does weren't I guess some clothing to come up.

He was very good. He was very. He was great though.

Yeah, but that was a very crazy time when all that hit at one.

Yeah, you hit like the jackpot and it just all of a sudden that's when you're just good. Yeah, shot off into start-up. Yeah, it's overwhelming to when I look back. I think wow that was a lot and I didn't even realize it. But it's like when it's like you're in fucking fight or flight you're like in survival mode when you're going through stuff like that and like your trajectory is just going up and up.

It's almost like it's so hard to live in the moment.

“Do you feel like you didn't get to live in the moment as much as you should have?”

No, I what was weird for me was to see if I did a lot of press and different magazine shoots and stuff and more people were saying I was a sex symbol like I didn't see that girl. I saw the girl like in sweats and like you know hanging out with my friends and so that's what was surreal for me. When I look back now at all of that and then after that I did drop dead gorgeous and then bond was like. The world why I had no idea how the magnitude of that movie. And so you know when they say like oh fam happens overnight it's like you work for 10 years and it takes that one job though that changes.

You go from no one knowing you to people knowing who you are and that part is I think what's overwhelming. As a young actress and actor when that hits. Did it ever get I don't know about the word annoying is probably the perfect word to use here but I did it ever get did ever put a bad taste in your mouth that everybody was so focused on your looks.

A girl with a little bit more substance and like you know I was looked at a certain way and I thought well I have issues I have shit that I'm insecure about I've had.

“Crap that's happened in life that you know just because someone looks a certain way doesn't mean that they don't have.”

You know it going on you know so that's when it would get hard for me is when I would want to play this role and they don't see you that way and like why I and even though they you know my agent knew me knew me very well.

And you know that that was always a you know a battle when I was trying to play other roles that were more girl next door or you know something a little different I wasn't seeing that way at all.

So when I got back then like the 90s and the 2000s was like the bomb shell era so they were just pushing that narrative of like you know hot beautiful women which. Can we bring it back because I kind of miss that you know like I understand that we all we all have brains and stuff like that too but I just feel like it was such an iconic time where there was so many beautiful women and like talented women and I don't know was just a really. And and going back to what you said. Did it annoy me I didn't realize that the level of being seen that way like I didn't know and to now I do looking back do you know what I mean I didn't know that people knew who I was I never thought of myself that way.

“You know what I mean now I'm like oh I didn't look so bad I wish I embraced that more do you know what I mean like it was to me that was a character and but I also it's not you know I certainly didn't help it by.”

But I think I was I shy away from it to I don't think I embraced my sexuality at that age and during that time I was very careful with interviews and being a people please right I want to you know that was the other thing when I did bond when we did this big press tour we had to do media training and that actually made it worse I felt like I thought like oh God I have to hear so much. You know what the silver lining with my divorce with Charlie and having so much bad shit said about me that is what freed me to be myself because I was like well crap I'm being careful and people are saying this then I'm just going to be myself and the cares if someone doesn't like me or they say something so that was the one good thing that came out of all that bad press I got to be my me and not just.

Being careful what I say and interviews you know I also feel like that's a growth because as women I feel like when we're in our 20s and even 30s were like so people please are like so unsure of ourselves we care about what everybody thinks and then you had your 40s and your late 40s and your 50s and you're just kind of like. I don't have a fuck or anybody thinks about me like I'm just going to be me and I think that that that that is the beauty of aging especially in this industry is because we develop so much wisdom and people get to see that you know more so with you but they get to see the growth through all the years.

“I agree I think as we get older we care less about that yeah and that's what I like about my daughter Sam is she has the confidence to just be herself yeah and I wish I had that back then to you know absolutely.”

So let's talk about Eloise a little bit you take me on this journey with her and adopting her bringing her into your life how did motherhood.

Change with you and the girls but then also raising Eloise so I've always wanted to adopt and after my divorce with Charlie I didn't want to.

I didn't want to not have another I knew I felt like there was another soul and that I wasn't done and I wanted to start the adoption process on my own and I thought well for another man comes into my life I don't know how long this is going to take then. It is what it is and then otherwise I'll do this by myself and she was there were quite a few different situations that it was a close to adoption I wanted to do a close private and she was number 13. Yeah and when she was born she's special needs and I did not know you know and in a win of change or anything I still would have you know become her mom.

But it was really hard to diagnose her and but when I first adopted her the girls the Sammy and lower were six and seven years old when she was born and right away they felt like.

I had her and they still they say it and they just such great big sisters they would feed her they loved.

I didn't give birth to her I you know we first thought okay she's just a late developer if I had given birth we would okay this isn't typically genetically with my other girls.

“But then it was really tough trying to figure out what was going on and all these tests and when the children's hospital and finally did like a genetics test on her was so expensive this test.”

And insurance was $15,000 yeah and then then they'd test her a couple times after they narrowed down the genes that they were testing so she was diagnosed with a chromosome disorder where she's got a deletion of chromosome eight and the genes that were they gave me this whole print out of all these genes that she doesn't have in chromosome eight.

And when the specialist told me and gave this to me so well can I talk to maybe some other parents because she said they didn't have a lot of information much information at all.

“She's like well she's the only one I thought wow children's hospital she's the only one because no she's the only one in the US database of this particular.”

There were other children that had a chromosome disorder in eight but not the specific genes that she had the deletion so I was like oh fuck. What do I do you know I like she's one of one yeah and so it's been challenging but such what comes with that I'm just part of my I don't know I'm not she didn't crawl until she was a year and a half okay.

“My other daughters were around six seven months old when they started crawling and then she didn't start walking until two and a half years old she was almost five when she was completely out of diapers.”

Like in the beginning before I was public about what was going on with her people would make comments oh she's still carrying her daughter in the parking lot the grocery store and I'm like if I put her down she will bolt yeah was just she just didn't know that there's a car right there and and so there's a lot of development delays with her muscle tone with that stuff and then also she's primarily nonverbal she can only say like a handful of words she can't. She can't do a sentence and when she says words except for no she says that clear yeah she can say ma not mom and the the other word she says is like a whisper and so she has had speech therapy it doesn't you know as a matter of fact it kind of shut her down I have a private teacher with her that works with her and it's kind of like.

She's oh at times it feels that she's 15 now and she's still I still have to. Helper with getting dressed like putting her shoes on to different feet putting her clothes on backwards so I still have to help her and she'll need care the rest of her life like I she's never she wants to you know she points that. Blue cars blues her favorite color and it's sad because she's never going to be able to drive you know because one minute she seems like she's her age and then and then she's like a toddler you know but she's so aware and she's very.

She's very caring and compassionate she loves animals for instance we were a family went out of town and I'd a feeder cats and I told Elis now you got to remind mom me to feed her because I wanted she likes having a job and so she hasn't cell phone and I face time her I can't call her without I have to see her face so she gives me a thumbs up thumbs up I understand her. I tried sign language she has her own yes I did not work for us and but you know she had in her phone an emoji cat next to Sammy's name she pointed I'm like oh good we have to go feeder cat so she understands so much and I also feel she.

Spirit's because I'll see her melding to someone or dancing Patrick will do my friend that past she had such a deep connection with him and she even felt oh God I'm going to start crying that you know he came to her and she could see him and stuff so.

She has this gift I feel that's on another level but she you know she's never going to be a normal kid and I worry like as she gets older you know and when I'm gone.

Yeah you know so I wish that but we don't know what show. You know this is kind of where she's at and it doesn't improve you know what do you think the biggest lesson is that she's taught you in this life.

Almost she's so aware like on another level not to sound wooey but you know what I mean like I feel that I want to present believe that yeah I've asked her and she she will if she doesn't know something or do something she's she's fine saying no and I asked her I might do see spirits or can feel spirits and she has not it that she does but.

“The girls and I tell them like look at Eloise is so happy just to like for Barbies the one dog always choose.”

She knows be like I want a new Barbie you know that kind of thing and she embraces the disabilities of these dolls from the dog. She's just simple and just takes in all her surroundings and that's like stepping smell the roses is what she's taught me and I think the older girls too. You know again it's a testament of who you are you know you're taking in these babies you adopted a special needs daughter like you just have so much love that you pour into people and I just hope that one day you find.

Your person that will be pouring love into you or you know at this point I'm not even going to say that's people anymore because I'm going through it too. I feel like we we're here to pour love into ourselves I agree yeah that I will do yeah I won't get married again.

No never never never never ever which we're about to start talking about that in a second but let's talk about your stint on housewives.

How was that because I remember following it a little bit but then it got a little crazy and I just I'm just so bad for you I was like I can't watch this you know it was.

“Do you and Brandy right Brandy yeah I think it so in the beginning when I did it I was again naive to it because I just wanted to be myself from the show.”

Because a lot of people know me as an actress they've seen me do interviews and I feel I'm like I'm not going to create a character right want to be me yeah. I feel that people would see through that and. They do and cameras cameras pick up the fakeness do you feel like the housewives are real like the ones that are on there or do you feel like some of them I feel that for the most part I feel those some are. Different on camera and off camera and so that's confusing actually when I met with the producers I wore guns and roses t-shirt and jeans I did my own hair make up and I told them I said.

They said I was the first that probably the only still gone and looking like that you know I said you guys can see.

On the red carpet you can pull up the picture of me all glam yeah this is how I really dress and real life unless I you know have somewhere that I've to get dressed up for and I asked them I said. If you want me to do that I can do that because I still am acting I'm still going to events and so that part I thought was still authentic and truthful that part of me but. At home if you want this and they want to meet they're like no stay who you are yeah so I think at first the housewives were shocked by that that which is crazy.

“That's what shocked them well I'm also the stupid idiot because when we went to the Bahamas which was a week in a me filming literally I packed like I think the night before morning of and I was just.”

I mean while I didn't know they were all like planning or outfits for Pride to fucking months and I was like okay we're going to the Bahamas and I didn't organize all my damn outfits.

That's what I would go if I was I would go if I was but that makes you real I know I thought I was such a dumb part I swear to God. I was shocked and I didn't even know where it was coming from and I didn't watch a few of the episodes because it was so out of nowhere and. I had done a movie with Patrick Molduin again he's like a friend of forever like we were more than even. We were in sister it's like we had such his family's my family and he's just I've known him we've known each other before anyone else knew who we were and I was 18 years old when I met him and so.

We were doing a movie together and she heard that he was in and she had a huge crush on him and she's like if I. If if I can interview you for my podcast can I interview him I've had such a crush on him and I said yeah I'm sure he'll do it and and I didn't know her well at all I had met her. Through an agent briefly and then I filmed one thing with her and then that was it and so we did. The podcast and that I did my interview with her and then she did with Pat but I'm like you got to like tone it down like and so Brandy was doing a podcast.

This is brought up on the show and but I remember Teddy saying something to me.

“Oh she said you guys had sex I thought she was talking about me and Pat because she would say to me like I know you're sleeping with him.”

I'm like I'm not sleeping with him. We've been broken up for years I said he's my best friend and Aaron's got to be like pissed off and whatever and I said he's not like he knows my relationship but actually was a deal breaker if you don't embrace him and forget it.

So that's so I thought she was talking about him at first when they and then when I was like oh my god for fuck sake really.

I feel like Brandy and I'm going to be very cheesy with my words here.

“I feel like Brandy um, leans into the villain character a lot and sometimes it might become her reality and that's why she drives it home so hard.”

I felt actually bad for her because no one was talking to her and I'm like the one person that was nice to you fucking do that to you know what I mean. And so yeah and it was really weird and out of nowhere and when I say the Bravo Bravo fucking Bravo it had nothing to do with that was something out where they were also for every time I go to dinner. They bring up some bullshit about three sons or this or that and I'm like they thought I was mad at them and I'm like I'm not mad like can we move on from it was like I don't know why they were wanting to make such an issue.

All I just said made one comment at a dinner we had saying I just didn't want them to talk about that with the kids right there. Yes, do I do stuff in the later it's on film I'm like yeah I hope my kids don't see it but if they do they do but while they're sitting right there I don't want to talk right. Right you know but um yeah I know it was a really weird thing. I was thinking jealous too you know because you were the new girl and it's like I almost feel like it's almost like a hazing that they put people through I I just thought I I thought you know this I isn't gonna land well right you know right like you know what I mean yeah and then I'm like.

Also I'm I'm open about a lot of shit like it would have been easier to say yeah and yeah, you know like should I have lied and said certain things or whatever but it was just such a weird thing I was but I was more so more than anything I've so hurt by Lisa Renner that was what happened with Lisa.

“Well she's the one that was I believe she just was pushing that and this and she knows me and so you guys were like homies like yeah like off camera.”

Okay I knew it for 20 years. So do you still not anymore. No no. So that ruined you guys's fortune. Oh I hate it. Yeah it was uh it was you know I we've talked a couple times since but I mean I if she reached out and apologize and like genuinely meant it.

Okay so twenty year friendship. Yeah well I think you find out about people I always say you find out about people when you work with them live with them or travel with them. I never worked with her.

So I found out I don't really want to be friends with that person so much but that's okay she doesn't want to be friends with me either so that's fine but it is what it is and I don't. I don't want to be friends with her and I don't want to be friends with her and I don't want to be friends with her and I don't want to be friends with her. I don't want to be friends with her and things and COVID happens. It was like a combination of stuff and hindsight I probably should have stayed on and but I was like everyone hated me and I didn't seem I didn't want it to not feel genuine either like we're supposed to be friends on this show and I was friends with some now I'm not and then Garcel think I was friends with her but it was so it was also weird time to what's going on with.

COVID and not knowing if we're filming and then everyone hated me and then things weren't so great with the person I was with so was a combination of things. Okay so moving on from the house by the staff I did hear you say in the middle of that that you were going through some stuff behind the scenes with the person that you were married. I was dealing with but I didn't know I was really dealing with it back then if that makes sense I just knew stuff wasn't right and when you say that can we have some examples I feel.

Obviously I was in an abusive marriage it didn't start out that way though physically physically and and emotionally financially all of it he was a completely different person than the person I married and.

I thought I would have been in this situation ever and now I get it like when you know it's easy to say why wouldn't some leave or.

“No you should have seen these things and a lot of people asked me that and it's I didn't I wouldn't marry the person right you know so I I've learned so much of who he is during the separation.”

We split a year ago for the July weekend we're still not divorced what was the okay so let's bring it back to the beginning so where did you guys meet and how did you how did he come into your life so that people who don't know the whole story can kind of get a picture and then we can paint the entire.

A situation that's happening for everybody Aaron had a business of what I would call kind of like a wellness.

A lot of stuff that people are just now I think seeing on you know Instagram and stuff like that like the bio hacking and I thought it was the most toxic man that the ones that pushed the healing and well.

“It seems to be a trend. He so I a friend a mutual friend wanted to set me up with him and I had met him in passing and I'm like he's not my type and no not really interested and then I started after my mom passed away she.”

I had renal cell carcinoma which is kidney cancer and seeing what she went through I really wanted to learn more about like preventative and health and wellness and all of that and so. I wanted to so I went to Aaron he had a like a place where I became a client and I was the perfect like. woman. Pray for him because you know I had had my divorce with Charlie I'm a single mom I have my youngest daughter I just found out her diagnosis and I felt like I've been single for quite a few years and I was ready to like.

You know meet so much he was the last person I ever thought and it's so true like when they say when you least expect it I've never had a situation like this either where I was became friendly and then turned into. A relationship it was always that instant chemistry and all of that and so I got to know him over four months while it was a client and when we knew some mutual people and then you know started to date and he just seemed like.

A really good man that he was very low key didn't come from money always this was also probably a big fucking right.

I don't care about your career that way or you know how much money on very low maintenance and and his actions even showed that too and you know he seemed like a manly man like he could help. But in a in a nice in a relationship way not where you know it's hard to explain it just seemed like a good.

“Good man to like a guy's guy a good man and just very seemed very nurturing and you know we had we were together I would I think around.”

I was two years before we got married and and no signs of anything that would be a red flag for me and then I was after we got married still good and looking back like really trying to see where I was trying to really. She where when did this really start and he's Canadian and he has a green card because being married to me and I when I think about it's like that's really after we got the green card was kind of when things started to shift. And then how so. Chipping away putting doubts in my head about certain things and then I'll never forget the one time when he first hit me I was so shocked I was like oh fuck there's no going back from this my dad always taught my sister and I always said if a man hits you wants to let you again and I told him I said.

Shocking and startling and I had a like he got so angry and just hit me and so.

And that's the thing that I think is hard because it's those types of relationships are normally like very passionate and that's what we get addicted to is the because I was in a severely abusive relationship also and what women get addicted to and those is the push and pull.

“You see who they were that you found love with and that they're so remorseful he was so remorseful and to the where I felt bad for right.”

After I got through the initial I don't know what to do my dad has always heard my dad's always said this and I can't I cannot be an abusive relationship I didn't know even the mental part of it.

I don't know if you've had this experience and if you haven't thank God you haven't but some of us in entertainment have had situations with business managers who have done certain things and that you're not you know not the greatest and so I was in between. But some of us in entertainment have had situations with business managers who have done certain things and that you're not you know not the greatest and so I was in between some things and I was also working a lot and he was like I'll help you I'll take care of.

I'll help you with your finances that was the biggest mistake I made and so I I stupidly put him on as a signing on my one account and.

“That was really bad but but going back you know I thought okay he's really he had my best interest he made me believe he was taking care of me and you know was kind of build a life with me that's what abusers do.”

Really felt like we were building a life together and was so close to Eloise. Sammy I think she was she knew from she did not like him from day one Lola she was sweet and she liked him she liked him for me she believed him to I believe. But I'm like you know like anyone right now I mean that's the one you keep close to nobody keep close to you.

“And she's the one I had to lie the most to with him with everything and it was just you know it's hard it was slow but it was a chip away at me to where I felt like a piece of shit and then.”

I was breaking it down yeah I mean abusers left it right now strong women yeah no and I was broken and he then he would slowly the physical started more and more. Then he moved his family down from Canada and told me they were just staying for a while and that I said it was his mom dad brother then it turned into another brother and a sister and law that neither one of us had married five people just during covid. It's 2021 like towards the end of it they made up some bullshit excuse came down two great days two pit bulls two cats and five people.

What yeah in your house in my house and house that by the way I was leasing with Aaron I had sold my house in his hills and then they got it did not buy a house with him right so we were leasing this week leased it and so I didn't own it we didn't own it some very respectful of you know. That was five years ago the brother with the wife left after four months and then the others are still here five years later wow. It was after they moved down I feel is when he really shifted right I was seeing a man that I didn't even know and I kept and then it would be like parts of that with the views and then he would back off and apologize I'm so sorry I just I'm feel pressure my family that this and.

He told me all these business deals that he was putting together and then the borrowing the money started with me and pulling money out when as soon as I would fly somewhere to work. He would take money out of my accounts that I didn't know and it was it was and I take responsibility that I wasn't watching that stuff but at the same time I loved him and I trusted him and I felt like he had my best interest and that we were building life together. I co-signs to believe before we got married his lease on his place in Malibu where he moved to center and because he wasn't he didn't have his green card at that point.

All my arms or something and then he gave me a black eye and that was where I was like oh fuck how am I going to what am I going to do now when it's how people was awful awful and it was something his cousin was there she worked for him.

“She was right there and saw it happen he started to he had these plants by a woman that gave she gave to him and I later learned some things about that woman so he was having a fair.”

I didn't know at the time but he made up some bullshit thing like saying there was like listening devices and these things and he got crazy like he would show him put a device up to it and it would I'm like all right let's just put them outside. You know, I think you know I think I mean I learned that part after he just was I think I was seeing the real person you know and he started to fight or argue and stuff and then the a cop showed up at his place and he went to the kitchen of his place and then his cousin and I had to answer the door.

And the cop said someone heard some arguing or screaming or something and played it down he laughed and then I sat down and Aaron came out and just looked at me goes your fucking bitch and he is this part of his hand and gave me a black eye and at that moment I was like oh my god I think I thought is my eye okay I was so scared so scared. So you know it's when people ask me to like the other times it happened and then it was just all the time you know doing stuff but they asked me how can you never call the police I didn't call the police and they showed up and that's what happened to me so he'd always told me you know I would.

“You know it's not easy when you're in an abusive relationship I people are always like why didn't you leave they it takes a woman they say seven times of leaving before they can actually really leave their abuser it's.”

It's not easy for a woman especially if they have money especially it doesn't matter it doesn't matter what walk of life you're in a abusive relationship you will never know what it's like unless you're in that and to ask somebody well why didn't you leave I feel like that is just kind of like I know yeah it's.

I know I feel and this is the opposite like I'm the one that made the money right and I was scared to leave because also he had his family here and you know and I'm afraid of them too.

I actually moved out of the house that that we were leasing and everything and but it was. became where I would be hit or pushed down on the ground or some threat of something. And that became almost my normal. And I knew it was wrong, but I was so beaten down. And that I, I didn't know how to leave. I really did not know how to leave. And it's not in your right mind in those situations. It's a kid survival. You know, because he's such a big guy. I've never laid a hand on him.

“I'm my guy. I would not be here right now. You're tiny. I couldn't even imagine you laying a hand on anyone. Yeah. He's a big guy and very, um,”

intimidating and, you know, he has guns and and would threaten me with that too. And so I was, I couldn't scared, um, to to leave. And, um, so he ended up filing. He filed. Um, but then he filed because you moved out of the house or

no, he moved in. I rented, like, ended up being three townhouses altogether. I first moved out with my daughters and he, because I, it got so bad.

His family knew what he was doing to me, too. And nobody stopped it. They didn't stop it. That's learned behavior, too. I told him completely. Yeah. It is. And so I moved in with the quarrel. I moved the quarrels.

And I had so much, like, all this usually would happen at his office, um, or, uh, when we were travel.

That's not my view. It got, if I'm like, I can't have you with me, you know. Um, and for someone who accused me of cheating, it was him. And, which is, whatever. But, um, you know, so then I, so I stayed in a townhouse with the girls.

I packed up all my stuff and needed, but I didn't want to just, they were destroying it and whatever.

“And so I kept hearing, they're leaving next month, next month, next month. Well, they still haven't left. They're still here.”

And I was having to pay the rent there. Plus, his office, plus the townhouses, plus everyone's pay. It was just out of control. And so, um, you know, so I hid that. And so, um, I had, my breast, I had to have them redone. And I had surgery. And then, like, three weeks later, I had my face lift. After I had the surgery on my breasts, he, uh, that night he was taking care of me at the four seasons. And I was, I had a seven and a half hour surgery.

Because it was a rough, it was a whole thing. And ended up hitting me while I'm on the toilet. And it got to the point that where he would, and I'm like, crying, and I'm like, I just got out of surgery. I was like this. It was awful. And he's a disgusting human. That's when that moment, like, I knew for, I was trying to convince myself once his family leaves.

He'll be back to, because I felt like they were, but they had never, he had no intentions of them ever leaping.

I thought he did. And, but when he did that to me, being that vulnerable. I knew this is, he's going to kill me, you know. And so, he hates you and he hates himself. And when men are like that, if there's no, I call it shark eyes when they get like that. It's almost like their eyes go black. And they did. And they become like a different human. And that's the scariest thing that you can ever experience as a woman is watching a man have zero emotion or soul behind his eyes. And then putting their hands on you.

You did do that to you after surgery. After surgery. It's terrible that he was doing it to you anyways, but especially after surgery too.

“Yeah. Like, that's insane. It was insane. And that, again, people like why didn't you call and do what?”

I'm sitting there like, I can't even pick a phone up. I couldn't even go to bathroom by myself. Yeah. And then I, my face lifts three weeks later. And I told him, I, it was so bad. I'm like, we've got to, I can't do this anymore.

He had found text messages and like a few months prior of me and a guy that I did a show with and I had never seen this guy again.

And they were inappropriate texts that I sent. And I, I never saw him though in person. And I, he even saw the text of me saying, I can't cross this line and see, I obviously things are not good in my marriage and Aaron saw those or the person I'm divorcing. And asked me and he said, did I lose you? Do you want, I, and I, I said, I cannot stay married like this. This is, I can't do it. I didn't want to get divorced and go through what I'm going through right now. Well, I mean, you also went through one of the most public freaking divorces. So you probably weren't scared to death. What was going to happen when the news hit.

Although I do not think this would go down the way it did, but I, I said, this is what needs to happen for us to stay married.

“You need to go to your management. You need to stop all your substance abuse and you need to get your family out of here because I cannot support everyone.”

This isn't sane. So when did you find out about the substance abuse? Um, well, I found out found out shit after we split it. Oh my God. Yeah. You would have thought I would have known more, but there was some other things that I had known ish. But I'm like, whatever you're doing, you need to stop. Yeah. You know, um, but then he got worse after that. And that's when, and then I had my surgeries.

And then I told him I said, I, I think I need to reschedule my face like I was like, I, I've never, this is a major thing.

I cannot have anything. And he said no matter what happens with us, I promise you, I'm going to take care of you and work get you through this. And it was horrendous. Thank God, Dr. Ben had me go to a place because at least I had nurses. And yeah, and I stayed there for a week and he was trying to put on, you know, his, whatever. And I get home. And then it was 10 days later for the July weekend. He was just still volatile. And he even had his dad come over who had never been there, showed pictures of me with this guy.

And it, uh, text message is on, you keep bringing up the same ones. Like, and you're showing your dad and they were threatening me. And it was just trying to create an article for months he was. I didn't even know it. Yeah. But meanwhile he's having an affair. Yeah, with the plan of people. And then, um, that was it. She was earlier, but they're several.

And then he was, it's always, it's okay when they do it. But when we, if you do it, it's a whole thing. And I, and I did, but you didn't even do anything. Yeah, I mean, I should not have texted another man. And I, I knew that our marriages over just the fact that I even did that because I've never cheated.

And, um, but I knew it was over when I did that, but I was trying to convince myself things will change. Well, he was trying to convince me. And they just didn't went from bad to worse. But, um, and that weekend, while I'm 10 days after my face lift for, for the July weekend, I told his mom, my text, I'm like, you've got to get your husband and your son out of here. I cannot do this. If not, I'm going to file a restraining order.

This is so abusive. I am trying to heal from two surgeries. So, eventually, they left. And then bad weekend. And then Aaron, um, the person I'm divorcing, uh, files that online, that weekend. And doesn't tell me. And it's text to me like on a Monday, like nothing. And I couldn't even, I didn't even want to see him or anything.

And my daughter Sammy called me. And she's like, are you okay? 'Cause I stayed the night at her house on a Saturday night. 'Cause I just was so scared to stay there. Um, I was afraid it was going to do something. And so I stayed at her place. And even at that, I still didn't tell her everything. Um, but she's like, well,

that mother fucker filed for divorce. I was like, what? Oh, why?

“Like, the worst thing you could have done while I'm healing from a face lift.”

'Cause that they just always wanted to live.

So I was like, yeah. And I talked to him, uh, I, uh, he called, actually. And I said, you filed for divorce. Well, yeah, you told my mom you were going to file. I said, I didn't mean Monday. Yeah. I said, I didn't say I was going to file.

I said, we have to get divorced. This is just crazy with your family and the abuse and everything else. I can't do this. And I was trying to beat you to the punch. Yeah. And I said, you don't realize the circus you just created.

And now with a face lift with my head fucking rat, I have to go find an attorney and deal with this. And he said, uh, he was, you don't need an attorney. I'm like, you want to over 100 grand a fucking month. What do you mean? I don't need an attorney.

Is that what he filed in the divorce papers? Wow. Mr. Oh, I don't want your money. Yeah. I said, you could go fuck yourself.

And that was the last time I spoke to him.

And then he same thing. Please take me back texting over there.

“I never talked to him again to this day.”

But you don't need to talk to him. No, he doesn't deserve any-- No, it's actually unterified of him. And then I, and I was so scared to file the restraining order. Shit balls.

I was terrified because I, I just, he's dangerous. Yeah. And he doesn't have anything to lose, you know? And same with his family. I was so scared.

Does he still reach out to you on try to-- No, he can't. No, he can't. Um, but it's been hell. I'll tell you that.

And, but the worst part is the betrayal of a-- For him, like, right away, you know, cell pictures of me to Daily Mail and put all these stories out there. All these lies about me and trying to destroy me. You know, even when I filed the restraining order,

I just wanted to protect my safety. I didn't put shit in there about on that just to be mean. Right? And that's the thing that was-- While it was at my most vulnerable to try to ruin me.

Right? After everything I've worked for, my whole life, to, you know, just be so brutal. And everything that I've discovered just in the last year, like, people come out of the woodwork.

Oh, his friends. Yes.

“These people tell me, I was like, how could I've been so naive?”

And, you know, finding out that I was paying the salary of at least one that I know in particular. And the other one, I was earlier, but in a play that he was having a fair with and are separate. And all this stuff, it's just--

Oh, my God. And right away, we moved in with a woman as soon as we separated, had her testify against me. She didn't know me.

Didn't see anything about me. And it was just-- it was brutal. It's been brutal. I can't-- he won't sign divorce papers. He's trying to come after me for spousal.

And I get it. I know that normal marriages whoever makes more money. You know, that's-- you pay-- That is what it is. And you guys didn't sign a pre-nup?

No, that was-- that was-- That was mistake number 50, I mean. That was-- Girl, you're just a lover girl. You're just a girl.

It's OK. I'm so stupid. You know what I mean? Well, it happened again. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I was a dumb-fuck.

I didn't do a pre-nup. But I do want to say that I am so proud of you for speaking up. Because if anybody looks at your track record, you have not spoke up ever. Mm-hmm.

So for you to finally speak up and say your truth

is amazing. And I'm so proud of you. Thank you. Because like I said, your track record shows that you literally have eaten shit and protected everybody.

And now you're finally saying, no, I'm choosing me. I'm going to tell the truth about this man. So he can't hurt another woman the way that he hurt me.

your chest and be able to say, look, this is my truth.

“Take it or leave it, it just speaks volume.”

So I am proud of you. Thank you. I also want to-- you know, because this has been-- you know, because this has been going on for a year and I feel-- it's been hell.

Like every turn I discover something new or something else is filed. And, you know, we have no custody to deal with. We don't have a home to sell. Oh, he's taking everything. He's not going to let you go.

And he's not going to let you go. And he's not going to let you go. And he won't let it go. And so-- and that's the part that's brutal. But I also, you know, I want to--

If I could even help one woman in my situation, if it could happen to me, who I'm the one that was the breadwinner, I'm, you know, and it's a slow burn. It was a slow burn and it's terrifying. You know, this happens so much and many women don't make it out alive.

And I think if I wasn't in the public, I wouldn't be here right now or if I did call the police on him, I would not be here. I really believe that. And, but to be put through hell with this, you know,

I had to go through a five-day trial to get-- I have a permanent restraining order. So after you file it, then you have a trial and see if you want to extend it. And I got the most you can get.

And it's not just because it's not because who I am. I had to go through this trial and he kept doing interviews and putting lies out there hoping I would break. And I almost did pull it because I didn't know I would have to-- it would be public where the media could be in there.

And I would have to sit there and--

“it was the hardest thing I think I've ever had to do.”

But I did it. And it was over a few months. It would be like three days. Then I'd have to wait a month and go again again. It was so devastating to also testify against this person

who I had thought I was building life with, who I loved.

And in a second, he showed no remorse, no love at all.

Like to turn on me the way he did publicly and do all that shit about me. It was such a-- that was more devastating. The betrayal that he had towards me than hitting me.

It was the-- that was the worst. And, you know, early on I also tried to, you know, private judge, a lot of celebrities have private judges just to keep things private. It's not necessarily your hiding anywhere.

You're saving yourself. You're saving yourself. Yeah. And it's almost single mom. And I don't want my youngest daughter.

It's like I need to protect myself too. And so he would not have a private judge in the beginning. He said that I would have to sign a one-sided NDA and have to pay him $250,000 per breach. And so I was like, all right.

And I was actually at the time he didn't know his cousin was testifying against him. And I was trying to also protect that side of things. I didn't want to destroy the person, but I wanted to protect myself.

And so he wanted it public. He wanted it well was an opportunity for him to to talk to the media the way he did after each time he would go in there. And, but it was hard. It's still hard.

He won't stop. And then we had to go to court for spousal. And I was quite shocked that this is a different judge that she awarded him temporary spousal and legal bills. He has felony charges against him for domestic violence,

regarding me and a permanent restraining order. And I was so surprised by and shocked, actually, that I would have to pay him after all of this.

“And that, you know, because I think it sets a bad precedent”

for other victims of fraud to leave because what if they can't afford it? And then this case could be an example for other cases coming well. She had to pay. You know, and I was really, you know,

I respect the court, but I was very disappointed in the decision that I went five days with this trial. All this stuff and then in, you know, a very short time. I don't even think it was an hour to make that decision. And now what I've been going through with it.

And I understand, like, if it was other circumstances, I would have say, okay, that's the law. I have to do this and pay spousal, I get it. But under these circumstances, I don't understand. And what I'm being put through to have to defend myself.

It has been brutal because we're not done. She won't stop. I had to need some of my heart breaks for you. It's like, how are you supposed to love after this? Or try to even look for love after this?

You know, it's like, I don't know. This one's a doozy.

I'll tell you, because like I said, I've always said,

never say never. I will never get married again. I can't do the divorce. The divorce. Yeah, I can't do it.

I can't. It'll kill me, I think. I just can't. I can't. I would have a partner.

Yeah, and you know, it's like Kurt Russell and that's holding on. I figured it out today. Yeah, I think I would do that.

I haven't dated.

And it's been a year, which is a long time.

Like I envy you. I wish I could be more like you. I mean, I haven't been with anyone. Yeah. This is hurt me so much that.

And because I really loved him. I thought it was building a life with him. And it's just, you know, I have to heal. Just, I feel like I can compartmentalize. And I am not one that's, what was me while a little bit with this.

I've discovered things in the year that's almost been worse than during the marriage. Well, the betrayal is, when I, when I had gone through a situation with an affair,

“I think it's not the act that hurts you.”

It's the lies. It's the lies. And you are just, it's like a whiplash. And the people who are involved in it. You know, like you feel, so it's slimy.

It's very slimy. And there's no way to feel good about that. Betrayal trauma is literally like it rewires your brain to not trust people, to just feel disgusting because you're the last to know. And it's like that one wants to ever be the fucking last to know.

And when you are, it's just, it's a different kind of hurt. And also I think this was, he didn't love me. There's no way. And so it feels like this was all at least as I feel kind, a hundred percent. And how I could have not seen it is what's hard.

But my closest friends and people in my life are like, he had us full too. But that's the part that's the heart. Actually, of anything, everything is at my daughter Eloise, because she loved him.

And for him to completely disappear from her life, the way he has. In the beginning, I would have, you know, set up a visitation with through my dad or something, but he does not care about her.

“And that's what's the most hurtful thing.”

He says to public. The only time he mentions her is publicly to try to get sympathy.

He never tried to adopt her.

Once I think he knew, I would marry him without a prenaught. That was like off the table. And, you know, his family started to go, found me page to try to get money from the public and say,

our poor granddaughter, no one has even tried to see her. And that is what's more than anything is so hurtful that he completely completely disappeared from her life. And it's like a whole family of scam artists.

It's yeah. No, they are. It's exactly. I mean, it's so deep and there's so much there and so much shit. But it's like, it's a lot.

But it's, but you didn't deserve any of it. Thank you. You didn't. Because you went into it with a genuine heart and good intentions. And like you just wanted to be loved.

And, you know, this guy took full advantage of a woman who's been through some shit and has a tattered heart. And, you know, maybe in the beginning he did love you. I don't know him, but then like, you know, people change as years go on.

“And it's just, I think I was, he didn't love me.”

Yeah, really, you know, set out to pray on he knew what he was doing. Especially, you know, finding so much stuff out. And it is what it is. But it's, I just wanted over, you know. How does it end?

Well, how can we get it? I don't fucking know. I know we have some court dates coming up. I know. It's like, he's just going to, it's like, you're going to pay so much money

and fucking lawyers fees more than what you're going to. He's going to end up getting in the end. You know, it's like just fucking. I don't understand because he was ordered also to return a laptop of mine that he took. And I don't, it's not the laptop so much.

It's the information that's on there. Ordered to return my late mom's things, refuses. Oh, I don't know. And that's like, oh, come on. You won't even give me my mom's things.

Yeah, like that's discussed. It's disgusting and so gross. I just have to hopefully, you know, whenever it'll be over soon. But, but I'm going through it, I'm like, okay. There's obviously a reason, even though it's so painful.

Um, I always say there's a blessing and a lesson.

Right. So I'm trying to find that, but I, so that's right. Think, okay, if I can, I want to be able to do what I can to help other victims. And then also, you know, there's some holds in our system too. That I think need to be fixed as well.

Not that I have the power to do that, but at least, you know, But we can start raising awareness about it. Exactly as I say, people can use your case as an example. You know, and that that's the first step towards change and being able to change things. This people seeing it actually play out in real life.

And then being able to be like, oh, you know what? That's not right. We need to look into this and fix it. So there's so many things. I mean, you know, with your, yeah.

Words to that people have an opinion or they think. They know everything. Yeah. Or he's put stuff out there. And there's, you know, there's nobody know.

The only people who know what's going on inside of a divorce or a relationship, No matter how public they are, is the two people that are in it. Mm-hmm. All these other narratives that are created are not real.

It's just not what it is, you know?

“And I think people have been conditioned so much to like read the news paper.”

And you know what's going on. But nowadays these headlines come from like TikTok or like, you know, It's not the journalism that it used to be. Right. People need to know that there's two people that are involved in this situation.

And that there's always two sides to every story.

I was really genuinely so touched that how much support I do have. Because I was scared to file that. The restraining order and then go through the trial and then have him put stuff out there. And it is, it's nice to, I'm so grateful for fans and people that I've really been really truly genuinely supportive and I'm so thankful.

Your track record shows the the woman that you are and I think people know that you're not just going to file a restraining order on somebody unless there's a reason. And you know, I, I'm thankful that people were able to see past all the bullshit and the lies that he was putting out and actually see you for the person you are. Thank you.

Yeah. Absolutely. Where we going on vacation Denise. X Y. That's the other thing.

Where we go. We need to go somewhere. Where we go. We both need a break. Let's do it.

Yeah, because you're single now too. I am, baby. So we need to do a single girls trip. Let's do it. I'm so down.

We'll have so much fun. And I want to do a struggle. That's all I want to do. I love traveling. Now that, and now that I'm here in LA, we got to go out to dinner and hang out and stuff like that, too.

I know. Me too. It's been a long time coming. I've been trying to get to LA for a while.

And so now it's finally happening.

And we close on our house next week. Congratulations. I'm just excited. We'll, we'll be here.

“But um, do, do you think that you have forgiven everyone besides the person that you were married to?”

Do you think that you've forgiven everyone in your life that has caused you any sort of hurt and pain? And where does the niece go from here? Um, cost me, yeah. I mean, I, yeah. I, I feel too like in relationships like even with Charlie.

I feel, that was our journey. I am so grateful for him because I wouldn't have our daughters. You know, so I don't think of, um, it is, it is what it is. And I'm so grateful that we're able to be in a place that we're in.

And of course, I forget the hurt there. You know, even with the media and stuff like that. You know, I mean, like, they were not kind to you. And that's got, you know, that's, that was a big part of your life. And I mean, look how traumatized you were to even file for divorce this time.

Even though you were in the most abusive relationship. And he actually filed. I wanted to work things out on the side. Yeah. But then when I had to do the restraining order, there was no, yeah, not nicely.

So, you know, it's, it's really hard. I, I am a very forgiving person. And, um, I, that person I would, I, I'm friends with all my access to.

That will never, ever, ever happen.

But I, um, I'm not, you know, I do want to find love again. I want to meet someone I want to have fun. So I don't feel bitter at all. Yeah. But I'm just going to be a little cautious.

Yeah.

“I mean, and, you know, I think this was an extreme per case.”

Yeah. But, and obviously, I had to go through it for whatever reason. You know, because painful as it is. But I think I just have to keep the, the, the glass is always half full. And stay that way and not become bitter or, you know,

change who I am in a negative way. And so I, I feel like I'm back to myself before I married him. But only, wiser and, you know, um, but I like to have fun. And I want to, I would like to have like a girl's vacation. Let's do it.

I love it. You said that your friends with all of your exes because that's such an Aquarius trait. I'm an Aquarius. You're a Aquarius. Yeah.

I'm genuinely excited. Yeah. So when you said that I was like, you know what, that has to be an Aquarius thing because I'm friends with all of my exes too. Except for the one of them that was abusive.

And it's okay. It's impossible to be friends with him because he just can't be normal. Yeah. Exactly. That's so funny.

I did not know you're Aquarius. Yes. Okay. So you have your head in the clouds too. Oh, yeah.

I was a number of girl at heart too, baby. So I get it. I understand you so much. You do. Denise.

Thank you so much for coming here today. And I hope this is not the last of our conversations. It was not. We're going to go on vacation. I'm going to hold you to it.

I will go. All right. We're putting that on the calendar. We're going on vacation. We have to think somewhere fun where we can go.

Um, thank you Denise. This interview. I have been wanting to do with you for so long. I just got to sit across from you and feel your energy. And you're just the most beautiful human.

And please do not. I know you won't because life has not torn you down, but please don't let anything tear you down because you're just such a beautiful soul. Thank you. I appreciate you.

Next time I'm going to interview you. Yeah. Let's do it. I'll be in this guest on podcast. Do it.

I'll do it. Thank you guys for tuning in to another episode. I've done blonde. I'll see you guys next week. Bye.

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