Love Trapped with Mishelle and Chalice

- True story media.

“- Hello, it's Andrea and I have such a treat for you today.”

Two of my favorite past guests, Michelle Roberts from season six

and Chalice Howard from season five, are here with me today, together with some updates on their lives and a special report from our group chat, which we have nicknamed the Unhinged Memoir Book Club. Because we started this chat with a discussion

about Lindy West recent memoir adult braces. If you would like to hear that conversation, you can join our Patreon or subscribe on Apple Podcast, but in today's episode, we are discussing the podcast LoveTrap, which all three of us listen together

and I just thought this group chat needs to go on the main feed. So here we are, for those who have not tuned in yet, LoveTrap is a new series from Glass Media, for the folks who make betrayal. All about the saga of Laura Owens,

who became notorious for claiming she become pregnant by Bachelor Star, Clayton Eckhart. The series is excellent, and if you are a fan of this show, I know you will love it.

“We actually have a double episode for you this week.”

As tomorrow, I will be airing my conversation with Stephanie Young, the host of LoveTrap. So stay tuned for that, and again, if you want more of my conversation with Michelle and Chalice, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts

or Patreon to listen to part two of this chat. You get two bonus episodes every month on that feed, as well as ad-free listening, and our very popular, binge drops whenever a new season releases. Nobody should believe me is a 100% listener-supported show,

so we are so grateful to our subscribers and to all of you who tune in each week. We will be right back with Michelle and Chalice. - Insurance isn't one size fits all. And shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing

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- I am here with, I would say, easily two of the all-time favorite guests from Nebraska believe me. We've got Chalice Howard. Chalice can you say hi? Low and Michelle Roberts.

- Hi Michelle. - Hi. - And you may be wondering, what are the three of you doing? (laughs) - You're in an episode together.

And this came about because we have a group job together. And I thought that we should bring some of those unhinged conversations that really usually have less to do with serious issues like child abuse and more to do with just other things.

So here we are. Thank you guys for doing this with me. Totally. - Thanks for inviting us. - I'm so excited to see your faces. This is very fun.

So this is the first time we have been on call together.

I wish we were doing it in person. But let's just start with before we dive into all the many things that we're gonna talk about today. This is really gonna be an arts and culture hour. And to bring our group chat to life,

but before we get into that, I know people who do not get to be at a group chat with the two of you will be very anxious for a little life update. So let's start with you, Chalice.

You are our season five surprise heroine. So can you explain for those who may not know or need a refresher? Exactly how you came to be a member of the nobody should believe me extended universe?

- Yeah, on season five was in production. I got a wind of that and found out that season five would be about my former friend. It's weird to think this life. For our friend Sophie Hartman.

And so yeah, I was really compelled by the podcast. I bingeed it all very quickly and got in touch with Andrea. But yeah, I was someone who was shocked to find out that a friend of mine ended up being a perpetrator and now I'm on the other side of it

and just doing whatever I can in my little corner of the world to raise awareness.

That was really fun, that was really special. But I will say like one of my favorite things about making this show is that sometimes you just meet really cool people and you had to stay in touch with those cool people.

And Tallahes, we have had so many amazing conversations

over the last couple of years since you first got in touch. Now it's been almost years. Just about all of these sort of related things

“and would you call yourself a recovering evangelical?”

What's your preferred terminology with that? - It's my expangile. - The expangile, all right. And so we've had so many amazing conversations about it was like religion and how that plays into some

of these things, especially with Sophie's case. And I just feel like those have really helped me understand so much context around not just that case, but like around what these sort of religious things that frequently get invoked in these cases.

And so I'm just so grateful for to be able to have had those conversations and to just have been able to have you as a friend, as unlikely as us meeting. - What? - Oh, you went from someone I was like,

I should probably touch base with this person and give my two cents to like, wait, we have so many shared values and we laugh at the same thing. So, indeed. And then Michelle, so everyone on the show obviously knows you

from season six and the queen. - Oh no. - Yeah, the unequivocal hero of season six, no question. For those who may not know your story, which I don't know if that would be anybody,

who's gonna be listening to this, but just in case, if you wanna tell us briefly, how you came to be on the show, and then we'd love an update on how you're doing, 'cause you've had also a lot of changes

in your life since you were lost on the feet. - Yeah, that's true. So, if you don't know me, I'm just a normal gal from a normal down just kidding. My life I think is anything but normal.

(laughing)

“I first met Andrea in, I think the first ever,”

much housing support group, and that was really just really eye-opening, and we connected from there, and just kind of developed, you know, a friendship. And, you know, we started talking, I think,

even back then, several years ago now, about how it, I feel about going on your podcast. Before there was a podcast. (laughing) Really, like before the podcast really existed,

and especially in this form, and just kind of something that we just kind of taught back and forth about for a while, before it kind of came to fruition. Yeah, just talking about what I went through as a child,

what my siblings went through as children. Yeah, so here I am, it's been a wild ride, these past few years, but I'm glad to be where I'm at now. - Yeah, and what has it been like for you, I know you have been presenting at conferences,

you're presenting at one coming up here in a couple of weeks, and what has that been like for you, especially after the show aired,

“have you been meeting some folks that have listened to your season?”

- Yeah, you know, it's crazy, because I think since the show aired, really, I started, like, right as we were recording, I think when I went to that first conference last year, and just kind of did a little, little five minute,

like, you asked me questions, sort of panel vibe, and then that's kind of like, yeah, just branched out, and I've met some incredible people. I got the opportunity to go to New Orleans, because then it ran around down there,

which was amazing. I'm going to apps that again, just a couple weeks, presented last year at the same conference, and then spoilers, especially going to an international conference in August.

Super pumped about that, it's really incredible. I don't know when this will come out, but I'm assuming that when it does, I will have also accepted, or I have accepted, haven't started yet,

a new job with Casa,

and that's something that I really never dreamed of even doing.

- And can you tell people what the Casa program is for anybody who doesn't know? - Yeah, of course. So that's court-appointed, special advocate. It's mainly made up of a bunch of volunteers, or like the core of that, and they go in,

and are appointed to go help children and advocate for children. Does it always have to be in abusive households? There are a lot of different things, you know, from sometimes really nasty.

Custody cases where the children just need somebody to show up for them, and kind of be the person in between two parents that are arguing about them, and just showing up for kids, and so. I'll be kind of over some of the volunteers

giving support to the volunteers that I'll have, you know, a case or two of my own. It's wild that all of this has happened over the course. I mean, I guess looking back on it, it's been several years now

that I've been kind of doing this work,

like it started, I think, even pre that first support group,

like it started with me reaching out to be, and has slowly built from there. But it feels like it's only been like, gosh, a year and a half or so.

and helping other people in advocating for children, has become something I realized I can do in so many different forms and so many different ways. I'm really excited about it. I'm really grateful, really thankful to you guys,

especially for you Andrea, for kind of opening this door for me, and I bust and threw it. So you shared it. And I'm equally grateful to you

for being on this whole journey with me, because like we said, this was the conversations that we had about your story, and those were right around the beginning of my child's support,

and that was while I was working

on the first season of the podcast.

So it was like, you know, it was my passion project that I was just making and had no idea that this was gonna be heading for this kind of career pivot. And so it's been really so wonderful for me

to have your support and friendship throughout all of this, because there's been a lot of wild twists and turns. And on that note, it was funny because I was trying to think of like, I was like, well, I know Michelle and Chalice

must have met through me. I was like, but I don't,

“I just remember that one day you guys were friends already,”

and you were talking to each other so I know. I know actually totally sure how that happened. So the way I remember it, I remember listening to, and of course like, I knew behind the scenes 'cause Andrea and I were friends and so I kind of knew

behind the scenes like, who Chalice was,

but had no idea who she was. So if that makes sense, like I knew about, and I knew there was like a background source is pretty much all I knew. And so I remember listening to Chalice,

that episode that you did with Andrea. And I was writing in my car, and I just boohooed the whole entire time, of course I did, but it was just so impactful for me because at that point where I was in processing everything

when my mom, it was really like hard for me to hear people talk about her and not have any empathy for her and that's just where I was. And so to hear Chalice explain, like to hear you explain all these things

and still hold such empathy for Sophie and to still have this like softness to you and not be like bitter and like hateful, like you weren't saying hateful things about her. Like that was your friend.

Man, it just gripped me in a lot of like deep ways that I really needed at the time. And I remember texting Andrea and being like, so do you think you could like connect me in Chalice

“or like, I think I passed the message along first.”

I think I like sent Andrea texts and I was just like, just like, listen to her episode, like, can you please just let her know how impactful this was? Yeah, Chalice, what was that?

Like, what was your memory of that on your end? And like, caring, also similarly like hearing Michelle's

season for the first time.

Well, it's so funny, because still I just, I feel like these stories of families who have been so deeply impacted by this kind of abuse, it has the power to just like disrupt and tangle a family in such terrifying and sad ways. And so I've been hearing these stories,

but I feel very much like on the outside. And so I was really close with Sophie, but I think it like surprised me that people were impacted by like, I'm just like a friend on the outside. And so you had said, like, hey Michelle,

sent me a voice note and I have a mission to forward it to you. And I was like, what Michelle wants to talk to me? Just be my friend. And yeah, I think at that point, I was just so it's such a disorienting experience

to come to terms with having been deceived. And so most people in your circle can't relate to that, it sounds like something they hear on a podcast and they're like, oh, what sounds crazy? And also it's like, unless you've been in it,

“it's hard to be like, wait, how did you go for that for so long?”

For me, it was such like a comforting experience to be like in my friendship with Michelle to be so listened to and cared for and to have like even in art, like this is the daughter of a perpetrator, this is a friend of a perpetrator,

to still find so much coming ground just around our passion for both exposing, but also caring about the deeper nuances of what it looks like to move forward after you find something out like this. So yeah, that was really fun to be able to connect with you.

And then surprisingly, like with Andrea, I was like, wait, we don't have similar stories, you're cool. I like, you're funny, it's a real vibe. And I think even though your stories and your vantage points are different, I think they resonated with people

for similar reasons. And I think like one of the things that I saw so much listener response to the two of you was just both your compassion for the offenders, right, for the people involved and also just your courage

and your clear eyedness in seeing what was happening to the children and really prioritizing that. And again, you're like, not out of anger, not out of revenge. And I think that's just something that has really, I know it's something that really resonated with me.

And I know that's something that really resonated with everyone. And I genuinely have in the last year met so many people was I've been like presenting to that medical conferences

and really talk about how it really helps them deal with the difficult parts of their job. And that means so much to me.

“And I think it is hearing from people like, you guys”

and just remembering that it is such an isolating experience when you're going through it. And then I think to just be able to reach out and connect with other people. And it's also a very, very strange life experience stuff going.

And it's like very helpful in healing to like talk to other people that have the show that we can't already where you don't have to be like, well, here's this weird thing that happened. And it's gonna make you really upset

and like you're gonna fall into your chair and like then I'm gonna have to deal with your emotional reaction and then I'm not really like feeling up for that. You know, it's just good to be like, and even to be able to make jokes about it.

I mean, I think like, like gauze the gala's here, it's so needed. - I listen to a lot of different true crime podcasts, but I especially like stories of like, I'm interested in stories around cults

and how people get out, how do you get out from under something that's so pervasive and so heavy? And so in a way, it feels like we were part of the same cult 'cause it's like, yeah.

“How did you get on the other side of that?”

There's so much you don't have to explain and it's so weird to like be able to reference something and Michelle knows exactly what I'm talking about and same thing with you. It's like, I, you know, recently met someone

who was going through a very similar experience to Chalice and she was beginning that experience while I was talking to her and saying, oh, I know someone who's falsely accused of this and I was like, oh, and you know, maybe, right?

And like, what I always tell people is like,

listen, if you find a false accusation of Michelle's and my proxy that is legitimately a false allegation of Michelle's and my proxy, tell me. Like, I want to know what that actually looks like because of course it's happened, right?

Of course it's happened and there's like, one case in a literature and then there's one case I know of anecdotally, but it's like, I'm like, if somebody actually has that story, come and tell me because we will be the first to like,

unpack it. But I'm obviously skeptical of that, Clay, when I just could see this person in real time just being like, oh my God, oh my God. And I was so happy when I met you Chalice

because I was like, oh, this is what I want the show to do is just help people like in their own time on their own terms, be able to put this together and not just have to be like, you know, that there's other ways to realize this

besides being confronted like in a context of a criminal investigation or something where it's very, very hard to, you know, where you're just like, 'cause that's just so shocking and we've all been through that and it's like,

that's a very jarring way to learn something horrible about someone that you love. And so that's like, I hope the show can be a gentle way to do that. - Summer is the perfect time to change up your routine,

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Insurance isn't one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit.

“That's why drivers have enjoyed progressive”

name your price tool for years. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they show you options that fit your budget. Enough hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates

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which is the name of our group chat, because we discussed memoirs, because we discussed unhinged memoirs, and sometimes just because we're being unhinged in the chat, all free, all free, all free, but we also

listened together to a podcast, excellent show. This one gets in terms of just recommending just as a listen, like that's gets a two thumbs up for me. I think, especially for our audience,

“I think we already did a few drop with them.”

When the show first came out, so this is from our friends at Glass Media, they also make betrayal and betrayal weekly. So I know this team, I really like them. They are very lovely ethical podcasters in the true crime space.

They really take a lot of care with the people around their show.

So I always feel much better about listening to something

where people are recounting their traumas when I know that the people behind the scenes are taking good care of them. So you can listen to love trapped and look at about supporting, love trapped.

This for those that don't know, and it's a longer series. It's like 12 episodes and jam packed. I'm like, this is they did not waste any of that time. I feel like, so this is the story of Lauren Laura Owens,

who people may be somewhat familiar with the story. I kind of thought I knew the story. I had no idea how extensive the story was. So this is the woman who said after a hookup that did not involve full penetrative sex.

Sorry, I do not. No, another way to say it. Did not, did not involve baby-making activities that she was pregnant by Bachelor Clayton Eckhart. And I am not a Bachelor Nation person.

“I have watched it occasionally episodes here and there”

over the years. There was maybe one season that I followed like 20 years ago. And then claims she was pregnant and then it sort of kicks off from there into this whole insane story about her.

So first of all, just like coming to this story, Michelle, did you know the story and are you at all, batch a Bachelor Bachelor? I don't watch the Bachelor, I don't watch the Bachelor. I, when I tell you when you bring pop culture things

to me, I feel like I'm living under a rock. Like I feel like I know nothing. And I get on TikTok all the time. How do I know nothing? You have a very narrow nose.

It's just like Taylor Swift, yeah, and dancing. Right, psychotic, pickle videos. Pretty much, that's just, that's it. That's Michelle's whole girl. That's, you know, yeah.

No, and up scared like vine and references. Over here in the left field, just in this weird, weird world, you know, and I don't get any of it.

And so I was, I had never did not hear anything about a story.

I had win in completely lawn. Like when you said, we have to listen to this. I'm like, okay, Andrew's recommended a podcast. Guess this is our new book club moment. And like, win in blonde.

I didn't look anything up about it. I was like, is this, are you? I hear some resentment from you that we did not read your Taylor Swift book. That's all I'm hearing.

And as we have to listen to this, I was like, guess what we're doing it. So I did not realize what I was forcing it on me. (laughs) - I, Andrew's in charge.

- And she was in charge. - She was in charge. (laughs)

“Honestly, the resentment is, I did not realize”

how much of a just like mom that doesn't get anybody's references at I am anymore. I don't consider myself old. But I feel so old when I'm just like, I don't get any of the references.

I don't watch the bachelor. I don't know what's going on in the real world. I still say six, seven in my kids, which apparently was a thing like last year and they, you know, I don't know.

I don't know what's going on. - It's very old. - Yeah, so, I mean, what keeps me young is, I have, well, obviously young children, but I also have my nanny as Gemsy.

And then I have Nola. So I feel like they keep me like, I'm like, they keep me hip. The truly, the oldest old person thing that could ever be said. But also my husband is several years old.

He's 47, and he has been an old man. The entire time I've known him. And I think, like, since he was born. Like, he was just born an old man. And he's just like, there was no good music

made after 1995. And I'm gonna be snob about everything. And I'm just like, he would pretend he didn't know who Taylor Swift was. Or that he only knows about her because football.

- Right. - Because she has a football team in my understanding. - Yeah, yeah. - Her boyfriend's like, yeah, yeah. - I get tell you, I do keep up with that,

pop cool thing. - I feel like this is really, this conversation is very representative of what our group chie is. And just like, suddenly we're talking about Taylor Swift.

Suddenly we're talking about, we're talking about some serious. And then we're talking about something decidedly on serious. So jealous.

What was your relationship if any with the bachelor, bachelor at bachelor nation, anything bachelor Jason, did you know anything about Laura Owens and Clayton Eckhardt before the story?

- No, not at all. We've, the bachelor was broadcasted adultery.

My mom used to say, amazing.

It was banned from a young age. And then I just like used to try to watch it with friends and I'm like, I'm bored.

- That I feel like is what the series needs to do.

“Like I think, I know I watched like a full season”

because I had a roommate in New York who's into it. And like we watch a full season together. And it's one of those things where I feel like if you're watching a reality show together, it's just fun because you sort of get in

like the harsherace of it all, you know? It's also very fun whenever I can convince my husband to watch any reality television with me because his commentary is reliably just so funny. So you also went in totally cold.

- Yeah, for sure. - So to sort of set the scene, and I think we can do minimum spoilers for people who haven't watched, but I think there's there's almost no way to spoil this

because you can sort of know the framework of what happened and it's the details and the ups and downs and the in the moment reporting that really like get you where you're just like, oh, I did not expect that to be the turn. And if anybody would be able to see the twists

in terms of the story coming, let's be honest, it is the three of us because we know from ladies who'd be making up pregnancies. We know them, we know. And so Michelle, like, I feel like we are

about as unshakable of an audience as you could find. And I was like, yeah, yeah, fake pregnancies. Been there, done that, covered many of them. Come back to me when it's twins. Come back to me when it's quadruplets.

Like, my multiples and it happened, you know, like in a helicopter, I mean, like, yeah. And yeah, I will say, like there was some pretty jaw dropping moments in this. So Michelle, like, what was your experience of listening

to this story?

- So when I first started, I'm not gonna lie.

I was like, and this is gonna be like, okay, like, I'm gonna listen to have something to talk about with the girls. I don't know, 'cause I didn't know anything about the bachelor.

I didn't really know the story at all. The first couple episodes, I was even like, I don't, again, I don't like men. It's a bias of mine. I'm aware of it.

Do I plan on changing it? Not really. But, no, I started it off wanting to hate him because that's just who I am as a person. And I started off kind of deeply hoping on some level

that maybe this was gonna be like an over-hyped thing. I was gonna be able to poke holes in.

“I think it's because I'm always looking for a way,”

like, I don't know, for like one of these stories to come out where a woman's not psychotically on hinge. Like, I, I need that. I need that. After what I have lived through, I need one of these stories

where a woman is not like just the worst, just the worst of the worst. And so the first couple episodes, I was like, no, we're gonna give her the benefit of the doubt. Now that I say that, I feel absolutely crazy.

I think that's, I have an amazing capacity to give people the benefit of the tell. But you really do that. You are like so often the most of recent and like, well, we'll wait it out and see.

I'm like, really looking for it. It's gotten me jealous. (laughing) You're like, is that maturity, is it true? No, whatever.

So I'm never going through, you know?

But no, I just, I, it was just these moments of knowing what was coming and like, screaming into the universe, like, please somebody stop this train ride. Because you know, like, you know what's coming.

“I honestly, the multiple men that this had happened to.”

Like, of course, of course she's done this before. The fake pregnancies, of course. Of course it was twins. Like, of course it was, oh, to get there.

And I, I do still somehow, maybe I'm just a little silly, but some, I do have moments still where I hear, oh, like, I heard the twins thing and I was like, oh my god, like, I was surprised. And then I'm just like, oh, no, actually,

that's not surprising at all. But like, in the moment, I think I am able to suspend belief long enough to be slightly surprised. Okay, so, Chalice, I have many follow-up questions,

but Chalice, what was your experience of? Were you like, maybe she's not lying. Like, for Chalice, okay, Lynn, you're like, this is totally normal to not have sex with someone and then say, okay, well, I was like,

maybe he's like, exaggerate. Like, maybe she's like, so to be fair, to be fair. He is, he's at up. So she sets him up in this sort of, like, lesson. Like, this guy has made some mistakes.

And he was like, like, apparently he was not, he was like hated on the vatular because he wouldn't make up his mind. And then he ends up proposing to someone and then she says, no, but then they get back together

and then say, the whole thing. And like, I was like, by the end,

But like, you just kinda like, clock him, you know,

and you're kinda like, okay, like,

“that's somebody you really wanna be on his side, right?”

You're kinda just like, oh, I just, I don't even have a reason, but I just feel like this guy kinda sucks, you know? So I do feel like they kinda set that up. So Chalice, take us there.

What was your experience listening to this? - I think all so bizarre about this listening journey is like, you know, way, it feels like her lies seems so much dumber, like, the thing. So I'm used to a bunch of who are like,

so calculated, you know, in a way. And in some ways, it's like, once you find out, once you read their playbook, you know, exactly what you're working with. But I couldn't believe how many things she was willing

to lie about that were so easily disprovable. It was jarring.

I don't know, somehow I feel like she took

the audacity of munchers and like took it to the next level. Like, yeah, I'm still kinda speaking about it, I'm just like, what? - And that was for me also the surprising part, I think, because again, yes,

“and like, I think especially the three in our lives, right?”

We're all very smart, very calculated, very, like, methodical, they're not all like that. You know, there are offenders that are much sloppier and come up with much like, stupider ruses. But I think when you are used to someone who's really smart

and has sort of put all these whole pieces together. And with Laura, it was like, I think what was so shocking about it was, yeah, the audacity and the coccacity of it, you know, is just like, that she really was someone

who leveraged her privilege to like, sort of the end-th degree of like, I'm just going to weaponize the entire legal system for just like my weird thing that I'm doing and like, from the jump, the audacity

of claiming your pregnant when you did not have an encounter that would leave you one pregnant by Laura, excuse me. (laughs) And I think that almost is like the, the truce psychotic genius of it,

is that like, she's so wrong-footed by that, where he's like, how could you be pregnant? We did not have sex. And then he's kind of like, wait, did we? And like, I took a gummy and maybe that was it.

And maybe she did this and maybe she went in the butt, you know, sort of like, and they do a good job excavating that with, with Clayton. When he was going through that, I was like, oh God, like, I just, I felt that of that thing

that you do when you're just trying to reconstruct and you're like, wait, wait, that doesn't make sense. And then you're like, but maybe, but why would they be doing it if they weren't, and why would someone ever do this?

And you could just watch him go through that. And it was like, that I found him much more sympathetic. I would say by the end. Because you just watch him really grapple with this. And like, and then I think also the other guys

that she done it to, it was such a portrait of like the sort of psychological torment that they put people through. And it actually like, there were a couple of things, I will say, that like, there was a question

that was answered by this podcast that I had not known for years about my own story, which is that in my sister's case, right? She had this twin pregnancy that we knew didn't end the way she said it was of long suspected it was completely fake.

And when I had talked to her ex about this at Link, he had recounted this story where they had a big fight. He told her she was leaving her. And then she produced pregnancy test. And she worked at an OBGYN clinic at the time.

So he was like, uh, questions. And then he told me a story that she had come to visit him and he had her take a test and that it was positive. So then that completely was just like, he was like, well, maybe she really is pregnant

and then of course she then had this story where she lost

and he was like, okay, she probably never was pregnant

or maybe she was a little bit pregnant. You know, he could never like sort of put it together. And that detail to me too was like, totally through me, right? You're just like, one of those things were like, well, the first one, yeah, she could have just like gotten it

from somewhere, but if he was there and sort of like, you're trying to put the whole thing together. And then they reveal the specifics of one of the ways she faked a pregnancy test, which came out, which the she had ordered, HCG hormone.

Like, if you take this like supplement or whatever that it can make, you can cause a fall

“'cause that's what the pregnancy test is measuring.”

And so I was like, oh my God. And I'm like, so that, you know, again, I have no, I have no proof of documentation that that's what my sister did, whatever the, you know. But you know, we've heard, right?

Like, this is not like fake pregnancies and fake pregnancy tests are very common in montage and stories. And so I was like, oh, it's just very interesting to like, no, because they ended up going through

her medical records and found this order for this thing and you're like, that's how she pulled it off. And there was periods, especially when he's laying out his experience that were like, actually pretty intense for me to listen to, just reliving kind of like,

you think someone's pregnant, you're questioning it

And it's just like, that thing of using a pregnancy

to manipulate the people in your lives. I think this show did a really good job of like articulating how damaging that is to the other people involved. And I really appreciate that that turned out to be not by far

“the worst thing that my sister had ever done”

and I think like with all of the folks that we've been in our lives, like, what they escalated to was so much worse that it's sort of easy to like almost minimize those things that they did early with like,

the other lies they told about us all, or whatever, you know, whatever, they'll say sort of happen that like all of that crazy behavior that preceded the actual child to be situations. It's very easy to sort of look at that as,

oh, that's like real level one.

But I think this show did a really good job of articulating like how that psychological torment can really affect. - And I was compelled by, you know, you see once again, it's like these people are targeting the empaths because as much as Clay Necker just got in a bad rap

when he believes at some point that she is pregnant by him, he's like, okay, like, I mean, what do I need to do? You know, he's not like exiting the scene. He's giving her every benefit of the doubt. Like this seems crazy.

I don't know how this is possible. But okay, if it's real like I'm here and she just takes that for a ride because he does care on some level and he wants to be above reproach, you know?

He wants to.

“- Yeah, he wasn't like, I think at least”

from the guys we hear from and certainly from him. And I think one of the things that shows handled Michelle, this is maybe what you're responding to with this idea of like, oh, like, it just be crazy.

You know, like we never wanted to say.

- She goes into that in the last episode, which I really really appreciate it and it does kind of like tie it in because I think, you know, as women and as much discourse as there is sometimes around being just a woman,

it is nice to know that like these things can both end, you know, it's a both end situation, like these people exist. These women exist, but it's not the majority of us. But so I do appreciate the way she kind of talked that back in and it did, again, I went in with like,

the way he's described is pretty not great, you know? Looking for a way out of here, but I think it really does help I think bring people back to the humanity of it and how truly devastating it is and how I think a lot of like the noise around it,

not that I really knew much, but like the noise around it is like in the way that it's described, like the tab was talking about it and like all the internet drama time, it gets very sensationalized. Again, like how many times have we heard about this, right?

Like even tied it back to the show, like everything here about my childhood is so overdone and overdramatized and all this and I think they do a great job of like really, really getting to like the feelings behind what people go through when you're having to interact with these people and questioning

everything and man, I gotta say the voice actor, they get to read her emails was so good, like yeah, she sounds exactly like her and like just the tone of us. Like entitled kind of like hap dare you, like yeah, it was really good, it was very well done, very well produced.

- Chalice, yeah, like for you were there parts of this that just kind of having again being like an adjacent person who was pulled in, you know, like not a direct family member, but like somebody who really was like sort of pulled into the whole world of it for a long time,

like what about this kind of resonated, like how did this land for you?

“- Yeah, I think it's funny, I remember there was a point”

where I just was, I had this one thought, I mean, like counteracted by another thought where I'm just like, how is he going for this? Like this is so obvious, why is he giving her so much grace? Why is he giving her the benefit of the doubt?

Like I'm like, dude, and then I'm like pathway into that thought, I'm like, that was me, despite all the evidence, despite all the red flags, despite all the contradictions, I wanted to believe that the person was telling me the truth. And so it was so interesting, it was like a reprocessing

in a totally different context and story of like, like, I just kept thinking this whole podcast, thank God, this woman doesn't have children, because this is the very formula, like, she, this is what she is.

- But yeah, it was wild to just, again, in kind of a different, like, a not quite much house-in situation to watch how these kind of offenders bring people along and just twist you up. Because that was it, it's just like,

let me start a fire here and here and here and let me weave this chaos into this chaos, into this chaos, and that felt so familiar. And it just, like, listening to him override all of his rationality.

I'm like, yep, and then--

was that they kept, as they, you know, as the story expands

and they come in with these, like, you know, this two other men that she's done it to, and they talked to, like, one of them and they talked to his partner and the thing that sort of felt, like, the, like, oh, no, like, watching horror movie,

was that they kept expecting her to be rational. - Yeah. - And they kept expecting her to, like, well, surely she's not gonna, and you're like, oh, like, and I think, like, that's where, you know,

our lived experience, right, gives you a certain lens where you're like, oh, this person's not operating, right? The same playbook as you. She has all the time in the world, she hasn't cared, 'cause most people would hate to be in a lawsuit

and be dragging stuff out and be going, but like, no, this person is getting enjoyment out of this, she's getting fulfillment out of this. She wants to be here, torturing you. And, like, that's what she's doing.

“Like, that's, that's why she's doing it, right?”

I get that it makes no sense from a normal human context,

but like, that's not what you're dealing with. Like, that's not the story you're watching here. Like, yes, she will keep this going forever. Yes, she will keep extending the protective order that she has against the one guy,

which that part was so heartbreaking because, like, I think they handled this while, in the show, so one of the men, she has a domestic violence restraining order against, and there's no evidence that he ever did anything

or assaulted her, and they were in a relationship for a while. And having just come off this season seven where there was two of the cases we talked about, where the men had extensive histories of domestic violence, and seeing that the police and the court,

like, they did nothing in those situations. Like, it's just seeing how, like, the majority of the time, like, we do nothing to protect women who are actually in those situations, and then seeing this person,

because she has wealthy parents,

and she's white, and she can present herself a certain way, as a victim, and whatever else, like, and it's just so manipulative that she is able to use these systems in a malicious way. And I think, again, in a way that women are accused

of using the system, but don't, right? I mean, John Stewart said the same thing about his actions, like, she would use the police just to get back to me or whatever, and I was like, there is no evidence that this woman did this.

There is evidence that you were hurting this person, and that the police were called, and then the police didn't do anything.

“I was like, that's what the police reports show.”

And then, sort of, see someone actually doing that. And I think, like, I wonder what you guys kind of, what your reaction to, like, and I get, I think they handled this well, but I think there was, like, there's almost sort of this,

like, heavy question when you're presenting a story like this. And I think I feel this a lot with the show. Of, like, we all feel this very, like, unfair burden to be like, how are we gonna represent women? Like, women are this monolith,

but, like, needs good PR all the time. You know, at least people just decide that we're a manipulative harpies, who, you know, whatever. It's like, there's so many stereotypes that it's like, we feel like we all have to be like,

you know, no, we don't hate women. It's just these ones, you know, that are doing the bad thing. And like, I think they handled that well, but they were sort of addressing the, like, believe women of it all, right?

And that's like a very well-meaning catch phrase. I don't think believe women actually works as a rule because women are human. I understand the images behind it, obviously. And it's a good well-intentioned,

but I think it's like, is it tough phrase? When you've had the life experiences that we've had, 'cause you're like, and sometimes. It's not as nifty of a catch phrase, but I think we, I think it's sort of like,

well, Weber, if you're listening, he'll say, it's believe the evidence, right? Like, and also, like, if someone is, and I think, like, believing people who are victimized, 'cause I think you could tell that one of the things

that men were struggling with is this idea that they were the victims in the story in a way that they were not expecting to be victimized in this way. And, like, did not, I appreciated Clayton Eckhart.

I mean, Clayton Eckhart, honestly, he comes off pretty well, by the end. And, like, he, like, he says something along lines of, like, I don't want this story to be taken as, look at these crazy bitches that are just out here

to trap a man, like, I don't want it to be that. But, yeah, what did you guys think about, kind of, how they handled that question? - Yeah, I mean, again, I kind of said it. I went in with, like, that was the presentation.

And, I think I personally struggle with that, clearly, if this episode has taught you nothing else. You know, I do struggle a lot as a woman who hasn't been believed in a lot of scenarios, a lot of really awful scenarios, right?

Like, as somebody who's been told that she's crazy and as somebody who has kind of to be kind of transparent, vulnerable here who has been through a court system and been told I was crazy and been told I was the problem and been told I was making stuff up.

Like, that is really harsh and that's really heavy. And, it does kind of make you wanna, and Andrea, I didn't really, like, I think realize how much that, like, ingerings in the back of your head.

And, until you set it up, like,

“you do feel like you have to kind of pioneered”

for all, like, you can't say anything bad

even if it's not, like, talking about,

“is literally follow the evidence, right?”

Like, the evidence is here. I'm not calling this woman a name because of my personal biases or feelings. I'm calling this because, look at the evidence, like, look at what she's done.

And so, I really did, like, appreciate that moment at the end where she kind of goes through that and, like, Clayton kind of goes through that. And so, like, you know, I don't want this to be that. Like, I don't want this to affect my relationships

moving forward. I want to be able to move forward. I understand this is not. And every person I run into on the street sort of thing. So, I don't know, it did, has kind of like questioned,

or made me kind of question, how harsh I can be. And 90% of it is, like, joking, ingest, you know, that sort of thing. But, of course, I think I hold some also personal biases there, of course.

And I always appreciate any sort of media

that can make me question my own biases. I think that's a healthy part of being an adult. So, yeah, I think they just did a great job. And I really appreciate Clayton's personal life on that. I really appreciate, like, that angle, you know,

'cause he could have not. He could have just kind of let it be. And that would have not been, you know, like, he could have done that. And that would still have been okay.

He didn't have to sort of think so. - Yeah, I thought it was handled really beautifully.

“I think the podcast is such an important podcast.”

It feels a little less niche and probably more accessible to people, but it's revealing a pattern of behavior that I think people just think is too far-fetched. And I'm really thankful for the way that the story was told.

You know, they're not positioning, nobody's like the hero. It's just like, this is just like a regularuss man who happens to have a bad rap from acting kind of shitty in the media.

And so, we're not like hailing him. It's just like, this is his real story about how he got swept up into nobody ever sees this coming. - Yeah, no, and you don't, right? I mean, that's the, and that is why people get pulled in,

I think, and get stuck in there, I'm just belief, and sort of, I get the sense that he and the other guys, who, the other, and the other, they sound like they're also nice guys. They have, you know, they're very, they have kids.

Like, they're sort of following the script of what they think it's okay, you get someone pregnant. You show up, even if you're like, I don't recall having sex with that person, but like, she says it's okay.

It's like, you know, you just sort of follow him, like,

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So one of the things that sort of struck me listening to it, which was honestly like a little bit tough, even though I do not blame any of this on the team. This is like, not a criticism of the show, but I think it was emotionally difficult

with sort of like the people who've been harmed by this woman rightfully want justice. And like Clayton specifically says, "He wants her to like go to jail." And I was kind of like, "Oh, sweetie."

Even when they hurt real children, they don't go to jail. And like, I mean, sometimes they do,

but it's just like, it kind of felt like,

"Oh, that's like, that's a fantasy." Like, that they would come down. That's hard, especially someone in that position, right, who can afford really good lawyers, and has family support and everything else,

“and I just like, "Oh, I think you should like find a new dream."”

Because I don't think that's how this story is gonna end. But I think I also felt a little bit some kind of way about the tremendous public support that these men got as this went to trial and went to the courts and they got all these,

and that's totally understandable because of course this is a big story that happened because he was the bachelor. And like, the same thing has happened to other men, that did not ever get this kind of support

and see justice and all that. And I think Michelle, maybe I'm just looking at you and I'm wondering if this hit you the same way. Because here we are, we can't even get authorities to look into Collin's death.

And the dissonance there, it's not because I don't want there to be some recourse in this woman, I think there should. Even what's happened so far, even her being taken to court and being held accountable at all is more than happened in a lot of cases

and then you're a simpler particular.

“- And I mean, to be so clear and fair about it,”

are they deserving of support? Yeah, absolutely.

My mother never probably ever walking into a courtroom

to be held accountable for my brother at all, never gonna happen, right? Like I kinda understand that, that's where we're at, like that's the reality of it sucks, but like, but that's not to say that like these men don't also

deserve support, absolutely. It doesn't deserve, oh, and it's not gonna be held accountable, absolutely. But it does kinda like, almost staying a little bit and not in like a, I blame society or I blame Clayton or anybody out any other like victim going through it.

I don't, I don't hold like, blame towards anybody for it. It just does staying a little bit that that's kind of the society we live in, right? Like people are so drawn to like drama and television and the celebrity status of it all

that they will go to bat for these strangers and not for like kids. I mean, that just kinda, it just kinda sucks. It stings a little bit. Yeah, and there was, so there's a moment

when I'm listening to the show that I was just like, I almost had to turn it off and then I was like, "No, I'm gonna get through it "because I've been doing listening to this "and wanting to hear what happens."

So Megan Fox is a YouTube journalist and she in the context of this story was very into report. She was like, did a lot of reporting.

“I think she covers a little bit of pop culture stuff”

in addition to the true crime type stuff that she does on her channel. I'm not gonna pretend I'm extremely familiar with all of her content, but I know she could does kind of a mix of those two things.

So not surprising, but she was like the interview to a bunch of times and she was very behind like, yes, justice needs to be served and let's hold or oh, and accountable and she did these terrible things. And I was like, Megan, that is so great.

Can you hang on to that lens a little bit harder because Megan Fox is in a vowed, much hasn't by proxy denialist. She had Gregory Anderson on a ton of times during the Kalski case.

She made a nasty video about me in particular. She has made nasty videos about child abuse pediatrician. She has one called the monkey bunch. So she is like a hardcore abuse denialist. So I was like, you can accept that people will do this,

but then with like the sort of next level of this behavior and it's just about broke my brain. I yet don't know how to deal with those feelings. And I'm not like upset that they interviewed her or whatever, it's not even about that.

I'm just like, this is a strange experience for me personally knowing this person's reaction to like my reporting on the Kalski case. And like apparently there's like, and I did not watch the video because I don't,

I don't engage with stuff about me in the snicket, but other people think of me including me.

but people did bring it to my attention

and they're like, oh, she's just kind of, she's like, she's like, said she's gonna fight you or something. I was like, I don't know if that's right enough. I checked that, but like or like offered to I don't know.

She's made some video about me and like paywall that or whatever. So that just like put a really fine point on my sort of like, yeah, like people will rally behind these men and they should.

But then when you explain that someone else is using the same pattern of behavior to harm a child, then they will ride or die for the person who's harming the children. It just doesn't.

And like this specific person making folks has actively done that on the context of her platform. And it's just like, I just, my brain was like, the amount of triggers you were able to push through to get through the streets and still enjoy it.

I don't know. I mean, again, it's kind of like Bill is the Gilbert. Like I was like, I had a time, like I was compelled. There was, I mean, I would say like overall, I mean, it's so compelling.

“And I think they did such a good job with it.”

And I think knowing how solid that team is was making it. I was like, yeah, I just like sort of trusted them to not take it totally sideways. Yeah, I did, I did find myself like dealing with some triggers. But I think it was like kind of helpful to reprocess

and kind of helpful to even the Megan Fox of it all. I was kind of like, it's a little bit know your enemy. I think it's just another measure of like how what we are up against in that like, people can put the dots together in a certain situation.

But then if you confront them with something that is more awful than they just go, they're just going to go. - The Megan Fox thing specifically, that feels such a convenient narrative for her. I don't know her, but it's just like,

that feels very convenient for her to be able to be such a denier, but then also rally, rally for this cause, because how do you not see it? Like, that feels very intentional. I don't feel like that's a, you are so close to a situation,

type of thing where you like can't see it, because you're being gaslit so much and you can't record brainer on it, because you're close to this person. That type of behavior feels very intentional

that she is like intentionally looking beyond it on purpose for one reason or the other, and it also is probably like a little for her favor to be on that VanWagon. - From my general understanding of her,

and I refuse to do more research on her, unless it's absolutely necessary.

“So, I mean, I think she had Gregory Anderson on a ton”

during the trial, so I think she's a medical kidnapping person. I think she's like, I don't know. She might be a Q and on girly who knows. Who knows it again? I refuse to find out.

I will not be learning more against Megan Fox, or more about Megan Fox. Well, anyway, any final thoughts about the podcast? I think they're making more seasons, so I'm very curious to see what this show does next,

but I thought it was really well done. And I think these stories of like helping people understand, like how people can weaponize victimhood, weaponize systems of justice, weaponize femininity, even.

I mean, I think there's like some really interesting stuff in there that is important to talk about, because I think it's like if you just let things exist out, there is a stereotype, then it's almost like,

I'm always curious to know if I want to hear a story

about a false allegation of much husbandry proxy because then what does that look like? And so it's like, there's the trope of the woman who lies about a pregnancy to trap a man,

“and you're like, that's what this looks like.”

So if a person's not doing this kind of stuff, if they're not like this level of unhinged, then they're probably not lying about a pregnancy to trap a man because they would be doing other weird things. It's like, the whole idea of like,

my judgment by proxy that perpetrators put out there that it's like, oh, they just have this one diagnosis that the person doesn't understand. It's like, no, it's like that. And eight thousand other things that you're doing.

So I think it's helpful to talk about the eight thousand other things. I also just think it's interesting, there's an interesting other conversation about like, oh, well, this like single desperate woman, like, well, that makes sense.

But then again, we like put mothers on a pedestal.

It's like, they would never have.

Yeah. Well, and it's like, no, this person, I'm glad this is being publicized now because for God for bed, future children, I feel like we'll be protected in a different way because of all of this stuff.

You know, imagine if Lisa and Megan, it's like prior to all of this stuff was exposed. And then Megan Fox really will be in a pickle because we like, we hope that that just doesn't happen. I just hope she does not have kids.

I mean, she's in her how will this she? She's like 40, is she? I mean, not that you can't have kids of 40. I had my second baby of 40, but I mean, one hopes, one hopes that this person just does not have

children. I do not feel bad saying that. I think this person does not need to have children. Even if she doesn't perpetrate this abuse on him, this person is a deceptive chaotic, manipulative person.

And I don't think, I just don't, I just don't think everyone needs to be apparent.

I mean, I don't know why he would draw that conclusion.

What has she done?

“Oh, the other thing I wanted to ask you guys about,”

what did you think about her parents? I feel like this whole entire episode has been made just trying to find humor in every single thing because I guess that's just what I need and where I'm at in my life today.

Ask me tomorrow I'll be in a emotional wreck, but like today. Today we're laughing, so I'm sorry. If I had that level of support from my parents growing up, I would have been unstoppable.

I mean, I still am. Don't get me wrong. Correct. Yeah. Honestly, that's further thoughts for later.

Maybe the reason I am as hot as because of the lack of support. But anyway, I'm just saying like, imagine giving that level of support to your kid and they're like a good human, though. I mean, beyond all of the, of course,

beyond all of them, just like, cannot ever do anything wrong.

Always forever making excuses.

But oh, my god, or they're not some problematic issues with her dad, too, like, I need a whole podcast with somebody deep diving in their her parents.

“That's what I need because there is tea there.”

Andrea, if you ever get enough of telling MBPA stories, maybe you can take a left turn into whatever is wrong with that woman's parents. But that's the reason. But then what's the through line between these parents

and those husbands? It's just like, at some point, you're so committed to there's in so deep. Yeah, it's a really good point. Yeah, it's like, I think in the beginning,

you're defending and then before you know it, you're just like fully on board. Like you're seeing it, you're watching it, and now you're co-signing it. You're in the delusion at some point.

Yeah, it's just not our though 'cause it's like, this is the child, like, I cannot wrap my mind around. I feel like I have follow-up questions about her dad's illness because for obvious reason now, I don't know anything about that.

So I'm not insinuating, but of course you hear about that. It's like, you hear about a secularly parent. And you're like, oh, yeah. And then also her mom just seems, I was like, oh, this might be an apple

to fall far from the tree situation. I mean, there's like this police tape of her where she's just like 10 toes down for her daughter shanigans. And you're just like, oh, you are part of the problem here. Like, you know, you called it support.

I think this is like enabling of that. I'm like, your daughter is a grown woman. I mean, and it's like the other way this is very much. She is like, oh, she does not like to have a job. They don't like to work.

Arguably scamming is a full-time job, but it's like, you cannot get these ladies to just go over my girl job.

Well, I thought in the first many episodes,

I was like, they're not really talking about her parents, and I'm like, oh, probably couldn't get a comment. Maybe your parents have distance themselves. I don't even know, I was just like, surely they don't know. And then you start diving into that and you're like,

not only do they know, but they are like rallying in every possible way. I mean, it was like, we've all seen it, right? I mean, like with, you know, Michelle, you're dead. It was some of these parents and with my sister's husband and her in-laws.

I've just like, it does not matter how much evidence you put in front of these people, it will not change their minds. That was part one of my conversation with Michelle and Chalice, two of my all-time favorite people.

“If you want to hear us talking about Lindy West memoir,”

adult braces, you can find that right now on our subscriber feed, and be sure to tune into the main feed tomorrow for my conversation with Stephanie Young. Nobody should believe me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Zambo. Our editor is Greta Stromquist and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett,

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