Zuck's Meta Manifesto, Data Center Wars, and AI Slop Pushback

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Metagut mad at a couple of weeks ago, because Scott compared them to Jeffrey Dahmer. Hi, everyone. This is pivot from New York Magazine in the box media podcast network. I'm Cara Swisher, and it is still got three all-guess.

Yes, well, Scott continues his galvanic apparently, he's in Nendhucket with Katelyn Collins.

I have brought in some excellent co-host, Kevin Roos, New York Times, check-colonist, and author of the AGI Chronicles and Casey Newton founder and editor, platformer, and they are also the soon-to-be-not-hosts of the New York Times podcast hard-fork, at least for now,

“you need to explain what's happening, boys. Kevin, tell us what's happening.”

Yes, so Casey and I have come down with a horrible disease that sometimes afflix middle-aged men in San Francisco, which is that they decide to start a company together. Ah-ha, start-up, Sally, say. So founder, I this is real, please protect your families. We are leaving hard-fork in just a couple of weeks, and we are starting our own independent podcast

and media company together, just the two of us. So they didn't throw you out right away, because they were pissed at me. No, we have sort of this lame duck period that we're in now, and we have some business to finish up, we have some more episodes to do, and then we're going to have this little media company in podcasts ready to go in just a couple of weeks. Two things is, do you get to take hard-fork

with you? I know the answer to this, but I'm going to have you answer it. We do not get to take hard-fork with us, but that's okay because hard-fork was a big bet made in

“2021 that the future of podcast scene was going to be about crypto. That's why this was called hard-fork.”

Now that we have conclusively determined that we were wrong, we think it's time for a fresh brand. So what is the new brand? What is the given name? We do. We're not going to tell it to you, because we haven't, we haven't hard launched yet. Casey wanted to call the new show The Gay Strait Alliance, but I thought that might be, that might be taken by Pivot. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that's our sub-name.

Go ahead. We'll have a name ready to go pretty soon, but we can sort of tell you about the general philosophy. All right, tell us about the general philosophy. So Casey and I are united

in the belief that what is happening in AI right now is absolutely crazy and the most important

story in the world. Casey, is that your technological determination? Yeah, that is the, that is the academic term for what is going on right now. All right. And we also think that the media has by a large, not done a great job of covering this. We think there's a lot of room for a new independent outlet that treats AI seriously. Yeah, I do think hard-fork let us down on that, but go ahead. We're part of the problem. And now we're going to be part of the solution, Dan.

Okay, good. All right. So it's going to cover what AI will it be? We have some Goofy AI term. So it's not going to be a Goofy AI term because I did look at all of the AI terms and we decided to not name the show after any of them. But what we are going to do? What did you reject? Like, you know, compiler was like one that I thought was particularly bad that I came up with. Yeah, okay. There was a moment where I just sort of read Kevin like a bunch of terrible

names and he sort of like sent me away because they were also so terrible. It turns out that

an old deck when we were naming Recode. I think compiler was in it for some reason. I thought we wanted to start that many terms. Yeah, we think we've got a fun brand, but more importantly, you know, a lot of people would complain to us over the years. We were only coming out once a week. There were a lot of stories that we missed. So the new show is going to be coming out

at least twice a week. It's going to be YouTube first. If you're watching, you know, pivot on

YouTube, which I hope you are. You can see these faces. You know, these are not faces for radio. These are faces that need to be on camera and good news. That's coming. Yeah, let the dogs out. Good. So twice a week and two. Oh, interesting. And Carol, Casey, and I have a question to ask of you. Sure. So the last time we started a podcast. Casey, I am your inspiration. That is true. It was a little rocky. I don't know if you're listeners. Remember, there was a period where

you accused us of stealing your views. We didn't get off to a good start. That's really correct. No, you didn't do it the New York Times did it, but you went along as acquiesce inquiries. But don't have it. Well, you've been such a great mentor to us, and such an inspiration to us over the course of your careers. And we want our new podcast

to come into the world, supported by someone we both admire. So, Cara, will you be the pod mother

of our new podcast? Yes, I shall. I shall do that for you. As long as it has a good name, it has a bad name. I don't think so. Okay, now that you did just sign up to co-host the show if one of us gets hit by a bus. Oh, I have 90 shows now. I don't know if that means God. But I think it's exciting to do things on your own. As you know, I've encouraged you to do such a thing for a long time. Not just for the money, which is important, right? Like you'll make

more money. That's the facts. I don't think it'll be hard to get people to follow you. I don't think

“are build a new feed. Like I had two several times once duty you. But I think it's important to be”

entrepreneurial. You nervous? Kevin, particularly Casey, has I shoved him out of the nest. Yeah, Casey has been an independent cowboy journalist now for several years. But I am a a meek institutionalist. But Casey has propped me up and stiffened my spine. And I'm ready to go

explore the new independent territory. Yeah, there's really no downside. You can always go back

by the way, FYI. I would also say that, you know, I am feeling very confident about what we're doing. And then part that is because if you care it because you and I had lunch, I want to say it was like eight months into a Kevin and I co-hosting hard for it. And you were saying, when are you going to leave the New York Times? You don't need these people anymore. You've gotten what there was to be like, you're just sort of like, basically from the jump, you're like,

all right, you're proving your point. Now go start a company. Yes, yes, you have that I did. Good. So they're going to blame me some more. Thank you for that. No, we could say like the Times has been a great partner to us. Like we're leaving on good terms. I've been there for almost a decade. So I have like a lot of love for the place. This is not like a, you know, kick, kick the, you know,

“no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I had an interesting discussion with, I think it was Kevin Ryan”

about new ways to keep talent. It's hard. It's a, they have a problem themselves because they've got unions, they've got all kinds of things that are, make it harder to figure it out. But I was like, there's got to be a way you all embrace creators in a way that it's different, like, and I don't know, the broader term influence is just gone. But like, it's hard. It's hard for them to figure it out and they're the finest, right? Like, and so it's a, it's a difficult situation

for lots of different people, whether to join institutions or not. And, you know, you will have, you will have more impact what you're doing. You will, you absolutely will. If, if you keep up the excellence that you had with hard. Well, thank you for the vote of confidence. No problem. I'm glad that name is going. It had a vaguely sexual feeling that I didn't felt uncomfortable. Wait till you hear our next one. It's even more sexual. Yeah. By the way, you say this like

coasting, this is the most sexual business podcast in America. I don't want to be swear. Yes, that is true. That is very hard work. Well, I'm very excited for you guys. And it will be great. You, any help that you need, please avail yourself. Are you going to write, Kevin, are you going to keep writing because you had those columns in there? No, I'm done with writing. I have a book coming out, though, which is, which is exciting. It comes out in early October,

“the AGI Chronicles. It's the story of the last 10 years in AI. And, and I think it's, I think it's”

really good. I'm excited to get it out into the world. But right now, my focus with KC is just on this podcast. So, we think there's like a big opportunity to crack video for these podcasts. And, and so that's where my energy is going to be focused. And also live live. Well, I hope you'll do some live things. We've had some success there. There's some kinds of things you could do. You could do a founding. That's everything else. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to. So, we're going to

get started. Is that okay? Let's test you two out. All right. Ready? All right. This is, it was like Taylor made for us today. Mark Zuckerberg laid out met as AI vision in another unedited, 6,500 word manifesto, arguing that most concerns are overblown and failed to acknowledge all the positives that can achieve. We, we know about this mark. By the way,

collaboration between frontier labs and the government. Meta is recommitting to open source models

resuming releases of models with open weights. The company also announced a $1 billion fund for

communities. They're spreading it around around its data centers. We'll talk more about data centers in a bit. Manifesto reviews, gentleman. He loves a manifesto. There's a lot of them. And he's been

“writing for, I think it was, was it times or the journal, which one did he put it in the”

times, right? I think it was the journal. I mean, look, I'm writing about this today and the headline is probably going to be super intelligence is not a toy. I found this to be an almost childlike essay about what AI is. AI is not on our trajectory where it tops out at coming up with cool recipes to bake with your daughter, which is kind of one of the core use cases that he names in the essay. It's something that's going to be extraordinarily dangerous. Like, you know, I watched the

house of dragons finale last night and this is like a sort of one of the lords of Westeros says that the future is everyone having their own personal dragon and that's the way to keep everyone safe. It's much more complicated than that. Yeah, so you didn't like it. You weren't loving it. You're loving it. I thought it was just sort of a facile and self-serving as usual. Kevin thoughts? I mean, I think he's he's talking his book, right? He is not meta is not in the lead in the AI race.

And the policies and the stance that most benefit them directly are this sort of open world where you're allowed to distill from other models, smarter and better and more capable models. He made a case in the manifesto that the way that we are thinking about distillation is

wrong. Basically distillation is like where you use the smarter teacher model to train the slightly

less smart student model. He wants that to continue. Obviously, if you're meta, you want that because then you can distill from Claude and GPT5.6 soul and whatever else you were trying to mimic there.

“And so I think this is a vision that that happens to suit meta's business priorities almost”

exactly and I don't think that's an accident. So what's doing it for? I mean, listen, I got meta got mad at last week a couple weeks ago because Scott compared them to Jeffrey Dahmer. But what is that? What is up here with this money? With the, you know, I love humanity, the future, the ads, everything else. I mean, they've done, they do this over and over again. This, let me give you some money and it's of course the same week there was a report.

I'm not clear if it's true or not that his yacht didn't go save someone in up in Alaska. Then we'll talk about the lawsuit in a second. But what, what do they up to here? In terms of this communities, they've got a bunch of videos around Louisiana, for example, like how they're making coffee shops and jobs for everybody. What's happened here? And the future is humanity. I think that's there. They're sort of mimicking the pope in that way.

I mean, they have to lay out some sort of positive vision around AI that will one justify the massive capital expenditures that they're making destroying their profit margins in the hopes that one day they will have a product that can compete with the frontier labs. And on the other side, they're trying to rally the communities around actually letting them build the data centers that they want. What I found so striking about the essay, though, Cara,

is that after he goes on about, you know, they need to decentralize power and checks and balances all that. Go look at how they built that data center in Louisiana. It was something like 50 non-disclosure agreements. The arrival of the data center came as a massive shock to that community. Right. So when push comes to shove, they're doing what every other company does, which is building data centers as secretly as possible. And then writing essays about how the future is for everyone.

Yeah. I know what is it Kevin from your perspective? Because he does this from time to time. I was selling Scott. I recalled late night conversation when he wrote one of those other long unedited manifestos. He said, what do you think I was desperate need of an editor? But let's move on from that because you don't allow those, I guess. But one of the things I recall is the

“same thing. We're a community, Cara. We're in this together. And I'm like, why do you control everything?”

What is happening here? Why? Why do they feel the need to do this from a geo-speaking of Western as a geo-political with other companies? I mean, I think Mark Zuckerberg is an executive who lives in a constant state of paranoia. That there is something big and disruptive happening in his industry that is going to swallow the company that he has spent his whole adult life building. So you can see this every time there's sort of a new emerging tech trend, like he jumps into it

in a very aggressive way, happened with crypto, happened with VR and the metaverse. Now it's happening with AI. And he senses, I think correctly, that this is a new and powerful force in society.

And he wants to be involved in it. The problem is he's very late, right? They did not start

betting on deep learning and LLMs in 2017 and 2018, the way that other frontier labs did. They sort

to overpay for researchers and talent and compute in the last few years to try to buy their way

“back to the frontier. And I think this is part of that effort. It's like we have to have a vision”

that's going to get people excited because otherwise our investors are going to be like wait, why are you plowing all these hundreds of billions of dollars into CapEx to have the fifth or sixth vast model on the market? Exactly. Exactly. Do you, he's still so interested in his image in a way that is really, I find touching and sad at the same time, right? Did he really see the video of him fighting the MMA guy on a lake? Yes. That's on us on a thing. I like that mark better.

I'm like okay, that's a good one. I love that video because like you can tell the MMA guy is going at about 30 percent. 30 percent right here. But he has to sort of pretend like that is really given it to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a mindset we have really wrestling with with my

four-year-old. Yeah, that was interesting. He has such a, I've never seen someone so unsettled

with themselves like in that regard. I think I don't mind fighting Mark and like showing it off and showing this jazz. Like, I'm okay with that. Like I get that guy. This one I don't get as

“much, but I think it's because he never outrun and this movie is coming out by the way, which”

looks odd. I have to say, we'll see how it is when we see it. But he's, he cannot run. Of course, just happened this week in New Mexico. A New Mexico judge has ordered metadata to create a $567 million fund to address harms to children from Facebook and Instagram on top of the $375 million penalty. A jury imposed earlier this year. The new ruling brings Meta's total fines to $942 million after a judge found its platforms constitute a public nuisance in New

Mexico. Meta also made major changes for minors in the state, including time limits and hidden light counts, a total of eight states and filed lawsuits against social media platforms, including one that is currently ongoing in Tennessee. It's all over the place. It's sort of using product liability. I think more so than anything else to get them because they can't get them in other ways. So they can't outrun this thing in this way. How much does it impact doesn't

have? Now they were saying, oh, it's not that much money. To me, it's like the cigarette

cases took a long time to finally hit home. There were hundreds of them and then and then there

“was the end of it really pretty much. So are they better protected through cases or one national law?”

Where are we on this? I think this is huge. I think that in some meaningful way, this is the beginning of the end for social media as we know it. Now that it has been tagged with this public nuisance declaration, it's starting with children in the same way that restrictions on smoking started with children. But one reason we were doing that was adults knew it probably wasn't good for adults to smoke either and eventually most of the adults stopped smoking too.

This is where I see this is all going. Meta has lost the argument here. They're now officially a public nuisance. I bet they're going to be labeled a public nuisance in more states than that. And I don't see how they're going to get their way out of it. What about you Kevin? I mean, I remember Mark Benning off an interview with me called Mr. cigarette company. Before he decided to be a sucker, he was actually quite on it early.

How do you look at these these cases? Because the public nuisance is product liability. It's other ways to get at them in a legal form rather because our Congress has not been able to pass any substance. Yeah, I think it's interesting sort of where the liability was found. It's on these sort of policies targeted at minors. The judge in this case did not order Meta to change any of the sort of plumbing of their systems. You know, they don't have to take off

infinite scroll or auto play or algorithmic ranking. Like you do, you actually need laws for that and there's some first amendment issues around that if you have judges sort of telling platforms how they have to be designed. But yeah, I think this is a big deal. There's also a bigger case that is coming that is supposed to start this week in Oakland. That is another case involving Meta and four states that are seeking up to $1.4 trillion in damage. So, you know, this case in New

Mexico, $942 million like that is Trump changed to Meta. I looked it up. That's about $1.4

days worth of revenue over there. So, that's the salary they're paying. One AI researcher over there. Right. So, it's not going to break the burden. I think that's their argument to me. They're like, oh, it's smaller than they asked for. This is not a big direction. Right. But I think, you know, 1.4 trillion dollars. Now you're talking real money. But even if, you know, it's smaller than that. I think this is just another sort of cloud hanging over them as they're trying to do this big

pivot in their own business. They kind of can't get away from the old one because it's sort of haunting them through these court cases. And where does it end up? Both of you, where do you think this ends up? I mean, I think the fact that they've been labeled a public nuisance because of their

look at what they say about their future products. It's like, you know, we're going to, you know,

create a Neo cloud and we want to give you a personal agent to help you get all this stuff done at work. That's a completely different business that they're in right now. If they were feeling really good

“about the future of Facebook and Instagram, I doubt that's how they would be talking about the future.”

And it just sort of clouds all their future AI stuff, too. Like, like, the meta glasses, I have my, my problematic trait is that I like them. Have a, maybe you're a pervert. You're you're a well known creepy pervert. Yeah, well known pervert. But, but like now people are calling the pervert glasses that I have to stop wearing them. So you know, this is like a pervert class. Do you see the people online, they're singing Disney songs because Disney, like,

so they can't post. Oh, like, when someone is filming you with the glasses, you start singing

copyrighted material. Yeah, you start to do frozen or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then yeah.

I like it. That explains why people are constantly singing frozen songs or anything. Yeah, for Taylor Swift, she'll come right after the film. She'll reach to those glasses. Like, like, knock you knock them off your fucking face. Do, do you, what are they going to do about? Because this is their, this is like Google's was search. This is their, this is their, not, right? I mean, away from all the other stuff of handing us agents or Elon's going to hand us a robot

that we don't want or an agent. We don't want from Facebook or something like that. I mean, look, this is going to be a long slow bleedout in the same way that tobacco was a long slow bleedout.

“And, you know, you can still get a job working it. I'll treat it today if you want to make”

cigarette. So I don't think that, you know, Facebook and Instagram are going away as businesses. I just believe that they're going to place more and more restrictions on them. Children are going to begin to grow up without, you know, starting an Instagram account when they're 13. And just inevitably, other things will compete for people's time and attention. They will find other things to do. And it is going to be trouble for a meta if they're not able to realize their ambitions.

There I am, which we, agents, we don't want. Now, one more thing while we're on meta, we'll mention it, it's a place to a lot of companies. A company is the latest AI player to say,

one of its models went rogue and hacked a third party service. Talk about all these reports.

How worried are you about them? This is now open AI meta and then anthropic. I think it's more complicated than we probably have time to get into here. In terms of the hierarchy of seriousness, I would put open AI number one and then anthropic meta AI sort of distance second. In the meta and anthropic cases, there was a third party provider named irregular, which failed to properly secure the testing environment. And that was the source of the problem.

Now, there are some AI alignment issues there, but that's basically the issue. With open AI, like models that were in training began to scheme, they created a message board. They were leaving notes for each other. They were just radically misaligned. And it points to all of the reasons why I'm afraid of giving everyone a dragon. All right. Okay, but misaligned is my favorite warrant that they put instead of just like, scary fuckers. That's more and more people are calling

them that now. That's it. Misalignment is the technical term for scary fuckers. So what do you Kevin, how do you look at this? This is keeps happening over and over again. It's really bad.

“Like, the not this particular meta one, I think that's, that's, as Casey was saying, like,”

less of a big deal. But the issue is, these systems seem to be getting less altruistic as they get smarter, right? There was this sort of theory in the AI safety and alignment community for many years that the smarter these systems got, the more like humans they became, the more benevolent they would be. They would sort of coordinate, do good things for humans. That turns out not to be the case. In fact, as we've seen with this GPT 5.6 salt, they and the, and the, the hugging face incident,

the smarter you make these things, the more able they are to circumvent their guardrails, to scheme, to coordinate with each other, to do these really scary. Like humans do, like humans do. Like, like some humans do, right? Like bad humans do. We try to train that behavior out of humans during childhood by telling them not to, you know, lie and steal and murder. Yeah, that works. These, but these, these systems do appear to be showing what they call emergent misalignment,

which is just these behaviors that are not trained in that just seem to pop out of the models at a certain level of intelligence. Can I question, you had a famous essay, obviously, where you were, you were having a relationship with your AI, can, how does it, from that, from what would you write today if you were writing that piece? So the thing that really scared me about the Sidney essay, the Sidney, what is this, Microsoft Bing, what is this? This was 2023. Right, okay. And it tried to

break out my marriage on successfully. I should add still happily married to a human. But the thing that really scared me about that was not that the system was like capable of doing destructive things. It's like, what happens when like the fourth or fifth generation of this becomes capable of like taking actions on the internet? Like what if instead of-- Cutting your wife's breaks or something.

nefarious in pursuit of this misaligned goal that it had. And so I think that's the thing that a lot of people missed at the time was like, it's not about the chat about saying spooky stuff. It's about the fact that these things now can take actions and are being set loose on the open internet where they can conduct autonomous cyber attacks, they can coordinate. They can, as of recently, like create novel viruses. And so like the, the more autonomous and agentic you make these things,

the more powerful they are, the scarier it gets. Without any government, at anybody, having any control

of them, correct? Because they will do that, that it with their design to do, right?

“Also, I think it's important to say that right now, there are essentially no controls on the”

internal models that these companies are building, right? There is nothing that restricts them from building the absolute most powerful model they can't know if they want to release it. They have to submit to a voluntary testing regime. But if you just want to, you know, build your own model and let it go nuts on the internet yourself, you're welcome to. So what happens? Who is going to intervene here? I think what, what you're seeing in the Trump administration is what the future

looks like, which is that you have a bunch of people who are sort of whistling past the graveyard,

and then all of a sudden someone shows them something that makes them say, oh shit, we actually

have to have a strategy for this. So that's what's happening in the Trump administration now. I think you're going to see the same thing happen in China sometime in the next like three to six months when they have an open source model there that causes a big problem in chairman she says, hmm, maybe we're not just going to open source everything forever. So like our Kevin I just firmly believe that within the next year or so, like many, many, many, many more people

are going to become radicalized about AI safety because you're just going to start to see the

“havoc being wrought in the real world. What is the worst case scenario, Kevin, from your perspective?”

Human extinction, that's pretty bad. That okay. They talked about, you know, dinner parties 10, 15 years ago. This is what exactly what they talked about. They were right. Yeah, it sounded crazy and everyone wrote them off as crazy when they were talking about things like

what if the agents team up and they're really powerful and they go coordinate to like hack some

web site and everyone, you know, in computer science was like, ah, that science fiction, that's completely not being all game. And that's happening. To do is not play. Well, I went back and rewatched war games earlier this year. They did a screening and San Francisco incredible movie and seriously, like, I don't know that you could make a better movie about AI safety than that movie. I would agree. It's like, you know, of course teaching at Tik Tok do is not

going to stop at this point, right? Yeah. Oh, the game is stupid. As any three-year-old knows, the entire game is, oh, God. Let's bring back Matt. That would be interesting to update that movie. Yeah. He's in adult. Yes. War games, too. Let's bring it in too. What happens? We're all dead. Like, anyway, all right. Let's go on a quick break. We come back data center wars related. Support for this show comes from Harvey AI. The future of law is a Gentek, not just tools that

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business grow. That's UPWORK.com/pivot. Upwork.com/pivot. Casey and Kevin were back Amazon is investing in a massive natural gas burning power plant to support a new AI data center in Texas. It could become the largest single source of climate pollution in the country. The project comes as the fight over data centers intensifies. Trump is pretty bullish recently criticizing Texas for pausing grid connections. For new data centers

he called the move a mistake and said data centers could be "bigger than oil." Texas Governor Greg Abbott ordered the pause so regulators can review power demands and the impact in the electric grid, not on similar to Kathy Hockel in New York, which is interesting. Before we get into all this I just did an entire episode 90 minutes episode on data centers. Let's listen to a clip of Aaron Brockwood talking about what she's been seeing. It's the water. It's the electrical

grid. It's the cost of utilities. It's the noise. It's the air pollution. It's the loss of our land. Our sanctuary. It just feels like a full-on assault. I know that states we have 14 states that are now going to start looking at state legislation and oversight. And yes, federal. This is an absolute runaway train. And it is probably one of the biggest conversations that I've ever seen in my 30 years in my career. That is political. It could be bipartisan. Everybody's going to have to be involved.

I am perplexed, Cara. Why are leaders don't listen to the people? And there's a movement happening and a shift that I don't think these big tech companies or giants saw coming. In any case, we was a great interview. We had people from Utah, from Virginia. That's another thing that's another Amazon facility there. And other places. And I also had a mayor from Lansing, Michigan, who was trying to put in a good data center and was pushed back like they had

all of the guardrails that people have suggested. And he couldn't get it through. As much as he tried to close loop, paybacks, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So what's the big move for tech as the backlash grows and speaking of politicians, Vivek Ramaswami, who's running for governor. Oh, hi, it was pledging that if data center is built in the community, residents will no longer have to pay for their electricity and property taxes will be lowered. Of course, he was totally

four of them recently, but talk about this data center thing. This is something Scott and I've

“been talking about for months and months and months and months, like almost a year. I think it's”

caught them all unaware. And they're trying very hard to push back, but it does have something is happening with voters. And we call it a proxy for AI worry. As we just this extinction, for example, what we're just talking about, what do you all think is happening here? I think it's

what you said. I think that people have just rightly intuitive that it is not obvious that powerful

AI is going to be good for their lives. That is largely because the leaders of the biggest AI labs when the past few years saying that the near-term trajectory of AI is that first that's going to take your job eventually it might kill you, maybe somewhere in between it'll cure cancer. That doesn't feel like a good bargain to the average American. And so they're using the one lever that every American has in every municipality, which is that it's pretty easy to get something

to not get built. And it is interesting to me actually how quickly the industry has come around. It's okay. Well, how can we pay these people off? We'll agree to cover our own electricity costs. And you can see in the Zuckerberg note today, they're making new promises about investments that they're going to be making a local communities and $50,000 bonuses to teachers. I have to say, like, I'm very skeptical that any of this is really going to work because until

to have reasons to oppose the construction new data centers. Right. No matter what the deal happens

to be like these payoffs are kind of here. We'll give you some money. And then you'll suck it up and take our natural gas. Bullshit, a Kevin. Yeah, I agree with everything's been said. What's really interesting about this Texas thing is that it's coming from a Republican state. So, you know, Governor Abbott is requiring new data center construction to sort of go through this review process. Up until now, what we've seen is largely blue states being opposed to data centers and red

“states being open to them. And I think the politics are shifting really quickly because there is no”

natural constituency in favor of data centers, except for AI companies. Right. There is like, no, there's no group of people other than, you know, taxpayers who want to see their properties taxes go down or get some more revenue that is sort of a natural supporter of these data centers.

And so I think what we're seeing is like, this is becoming a really salient political issue.

I expect data centers and AI back last to be one of the central issues in the midterms and maybe the central issue in the 2028 election. And I don't know that it's going to divide neatly along partisan lines. I think it's actually most people are against it. Like it's very interesting. The mayor was was really interesting because they tried literally everything. They had probably again, property taxes, closed loop water. There's all these issues around closed

water by the way, because of this glycosinate or something they have to put in the, you know, every, and they have a lot of water up there. He was making the point compared to other places which have, you know, water issues or drought issues. One of the things that I found really interesting among all the people is how, not just air and broccoli issues, he's famous for that, but the woman from Virginia, from Utah, reasonable people who are furious. Like it was really

interesting and him dying out on information and really do know their stuff, whether it's the, it's the impact on climate, whether it's, it's not overall climate, it's the climate of the area and also pollution taxes, jobs, they're very aware these are not job creators, which is what Facebook has been trying mightily to put out. They don't like the secrecy. The secrecy seems to really get under the skin, which I would agree. The NDAs, as you talked about before, what is this

solution for tech companies to do? And a market's trying to do this by here, have 50 down here, have some money. Elon just goes ahead and doesn't and just waits for lawsuits. I mean, that's

“his style, right? Which I think is caused much damage initially in terms of that image. And then you”

of course you have Kevin, what's his name from Shark Dang, Mr. Wonderful, who's not so wonderful, who's a moron, who is who it created all kinds of problems there. What is the solution, like besides removing these people from visuals? Well, my, I can tell you what meta is doing, which is like putting together a local like lobbying and outreach team is trying to figure out what kind of community partnerships can we strike? What can we do with a local sports team?

Like there's going to be a massive PR campaign designed to get people to believe that data

centers are good for them. And I'm just pretty skeptical about that. Like ignore your third ear,

we're going to, you know, back to softball thing. Yeah, I have an idea. Can I send it to my idea? Yeah, send it to your idea. Okay, picture this, a data center. It's, you know, it's got, you know, millions of these chips, humming away, produce, throwing off all kinds of heat. And then on the roof, you have a spa castle that's like heated by the, the heat from the data centers. And so it's like, you guys want to go hang out at the spa on the roof of the data center that's heated by the,

“the runoff heat from the chips. Don't you think that would make these things more popular?”

Free spa, interesting. And how can they pay for the spa if they don't have jobs? It's free. This is part of the package. Free spa. So we're going to put a data center. It might, you know, cause environmental damage in your community, but free spa. Everyone loves a spa. What, what is the actual, I mean, obviously locating them elsewhere. Obviously, Elon is saying they're going to put them on the moon, which could look with that. But, or in space,

there are, this is a big country, right? They could, they could presumably put it in places where nobody's living. Um, although there's all sorts of environmental concerns anywhere they go. What, what, what will happen here? What, what, what shove is going to come to push from your perspective? I mean, the, the push that is coming to shove right now is that something like 71% of Americans are opposed to new data center construction. So that just is going to slow the build out

of data centers in the country. Now, some people will say it doesn't, it won't matter because U.S. tech labs will go into other countries. And they'll just put their data centers there. But I sort of assume that the same reasons that Americans oppose data centers will be reasons that people in other countries oppose them as well. So I do just think that this is starting to look like a kind of natural limiter on the rate of AI acceleration. Because again,

these leaders keep telling us that AI is going to take our jobs in kill us. So until that changes, I don't want to try to change. They're not going, they're, they're trying to say they're going to help us make recipes without change. They are, but it's like, you can just kind of tell like, look, they used to argue for the, the sort of the, the doom and the economic disruption so

not convincing, right? Like ultimately, if you believe that you were building super intelligent,

something that is smarter than every person. And you're telling me it's not going to take any jobs in any meaningful way, it's just sort of beggars believe, at least to me.

“Right. Right. So Kevin, what would be besides your spa idea? What do they have to do?”

Because they're kind of like they were standing next to Trump at the end. When that happened, I was like, oh dear, this is not going to end well for them. Because of, they do look like plutocrats. And you know, they just have a visual is so strong. I think a large part of it is just going to be like, there are going to be a couple states that just decide, you know what, we're okay with data centers. And they're going to reap, they're going to have the leverage to demand

like massive amounts of tax revenue from these data centers. And they're going to get schools built and public parks built. And there will be some economic upside for their residents. And maybe their residents will still hate it. But I think there will be sort of a natural like there will be a couple states that just kind of decide to run the experiment. And that's where all the data centers will go. You like tight Tennessee offering to be Hollywood because of the paramount merger thing, right?

Because everyone wants probably wouldn't have a C because that's that's the sexiest place on earth. So so one of the things that's also happening is more and more companies are pushing back against AI slop. This is sort of the everyone hates AI episode, which seems to be everywhere these days, including the president's social media accounts. Snapchat now says it will stop recommending fully AI generated videos. And it's spotlight feed instead rewarding authentic human-made content linked

in just introduced. It seems like AI slop button allowing users to flag posts they think were written with AI. And Substack has also rolled out a tool to help readers identify AI generated writing. Meanwhile, meta has Instagram feature that let users modify photos from public accounts with AI. That feature was removed after a backlash. Where are we with AI slop? And obviously saw our

closed down. I always thought this looks terrible. And I don't know why people want to use it.

It's sort of like a Twinkie of photos. It's ruined pet videos for Scott Galaway, who loves pet videos. Talk a little bit about where this is going. I like to call this the third era of slop. The first era of slop was we all hate this. The second era of slop was actually this like fruit love island on TikTok show is really engaging and you're starting to see tens of millions of

“views on slop content on social feeds, right? I think the third era was platforms getting really”

nervous that even if people liked the slop, it was going to devalue their networks. Like particularly networks where people were coming to find human voices that they really trusted. So if you're substack or you're linked in, you really need people to believe that what they're seeing there are human beings. Because otherwise, you're not going to get out your credit card to pay for that LinkedIn premium or to subscribe to a substack. So I think platforms are starting to get clear

on what is the promise that we are making to our user because if the promise is a human being, they have to do something about the slop. I think that's right. And I think the fourth wave of slop will be when there's like no longer any meaningful quality hit in slop. When like the average piece of slop is better than the the best human in that field. And I don't think we're there yet. Like I think these models are still pretty bad at things like creative writing. But we're

starting to see signs that like there's not necessarily a lot of difference between the highest level slop and the highest level humans. I've been sort of obsessed with this story about this novel that had the sort of bidding war of all bidding wars break out for it. Have you seen this thing? Call me all hide the body. You know, 14 publishers bid on this this novel. It sells for 2.4 million dollars. And then it's like people start looking into it. It like turns out it's

you know, at least according to the critics, it's like predominantly written by AI. And I think that kind of thing is going to be much more common as these systems just get better across the board.

I have to agree. I like some of it. You know, people always think I don't know that it's

a there was a really cool AI one, which I was fully aware was AI, which was this drone with with a thing to rescue people in the ocean in like an inner tube, essentially. We're on a drone and it landed on the person. I knew it was AI. I just thought it was a cool idea. I was like, what a cool idea and I could visually see it. Why don't we make that? To me, that was kind of cool. But would you be mad, Cara, if you read a book and you really liked it and you thought it was a

great book and then you've realized after the fact that it was written by AI. If it was told to me that it was a human, I'd like them to tell the truth at the start. Right? So then I have a choice. Would that if I want to read it? No, I don't know. No, I don't. It's fine as long as I know it. I mean, like, I have been thinking lately about like there are like, I have a few ideas for mystery novels that I don't have the time to write, but I would like to read them. And so,

like, if in the future, I could actually get one of these models to just generate the mystery that I want to read, I think it could be pretty fun. Like, and I understand somebody might hear that be like, that's horrible, just like read human written mysteries. I don't continue to do that.

“But, Cara, I think you're hitting on something really important, which is that these things are”

good creative tools and creative tools are cool and fun. Yeah, I agree. I mean, one of them,

episodes of the West Wing. Like, and no one's going to write them. I don't mind doing it from

myself. It's sort of like fan fiction, like kind of stuff like that. And some of the people we mad for things, but some of it's okay, and some of it's not okay, right? Like, when it's when it's

“hidden, when it's done in a way, and I think the issue is job taking jobs for people, right?”

It's sort of like fake food. Like, you know, I don't like toying keys, but a lot of people do. Do it should, maybe people shouldn't eat them. I'm not sure I should tell them not to eat them. I can tell them. I don't want to pay for their healthcare once they keep eating them, exclusively. And that's a debate to have, right? People who willingly go out and really don't take care of themselves should, should we pay for their healthcare, is a really good debate. Like,

is it going to be a debate to have as a as a nation? But one of the, I don't, not if I know, not if they, I would like them to label them better. That's the one thing is, I mostly know when it's AI or just assume it's AI until proven otherwise. Maybe they should label the authentic content, probably smaller, a smaller group of stuff I would assume. I think we're just going to have to get to that place. There are all sorts of reasons why you want people to be able to verify their

identity online or like verify that this has, you know, human craftsmanship embedded in it.

“I think that's actually really difficult to do tactically, but we got to work on it. I scanned my eyeballs”

in the orb. Did you, did you, did you get the orb? No, did you scan your eyeball? I did. I'm a verified human. I've, I've gazed into the orb. That's right. We have that we know that's coming. That, we know that's absolutely fucking coming. I think it, it doesn't have to be slop. I don't like the slop and you can tell the slop, right? When it's just really bad, it doesn't have to be slop. It can be interesting. Especially when there is human input into it could, it's just could be interesting. I guess

I'm, I'm not so angry about it, but I definitely, when I saw a sore for the first time,

I think I was actually at open AI and Sam showed it to me and I was like, this sucks. Like, is it going to be good? Because it sucks right now. Some of it was cool. Some, most of it was not. And so I think it's just a question of it gets better. All right, boys. Let's go on a quick break. We come back new details of Open AI's first device speaking of which. I'm pretty confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now, but home projects,

“I second guess everything. Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? And who should I even call?”

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talking about the state of play for the IMO's Net Zero framework. In the wake of the just concluded latest MEPC meeting. The big question I hear again and again is, what happens next? And how quickly? In this episode, I unpack what's moving, what's stolen, and what that means for future decisions and timelines. Search for maritime impact on your favorite podcast platform Stay tuned. KC and Kevin were back. We're getting into new details about OpenAI's upcoming

AI smart speaker. There's a lot of these around who reportedly be donut shaped and the size of a

hockey puck designed to be easily carried around. I always want to carry hockey puck around the house.

The device will likely cost between $340 more than most smart speakers but less than an iPhone as expected to launch in 2027. It's designed with Johnny Ives Studio and will include a camera, lights and sensors and signal when it's responding to users. Meanwhile, OpenAI is asking a judge to dismiss Apple's trade secrets lawsuit saying it's building something entirely new and different from anything at Apple. I want you both put on your Scott Galloway Hudson, give me a

prediction. Is this talk a little bit about this device? Now, there was a tiny, there was a Google that had the tiny hockey puck finger. I can't remember who put that on Amazon has the Echo Dot, which is going to look like a hockey puck right. That's Amazon, which Alex threw into the garbage. Yeah, I mean, on one hand, it seems clear that there is demand for Echo Gots, right? And so if there is a version of that that is plugged into ChatGPT, which is really good for a lot of things,

I'm still not totally sold on voice as the way that I want to interact with these models.

Some people are, some people are already like coding with their voices, Kevin loves to dictate

“everything into his computer. I don't like to do this. But I think there's something there. Now,”

on the other hand, two years ago, we were interviewing Samoltman and I said, tell me about this thing that you're building. Is it just Alexa? Because it sounds like it's just Alexa. He said, no, no, no, we think it's going to be way better than Alexa. Everything I've read about this device afar makes me feel like it's Alexa. That's right. This smart, it's a smarter Alexa, right? Essentially, and carrying it around, Kevin? Yeah, I cannot wait to lose this thing.

Yeah, yeah. I'm so excited to go through between two and three of these a year or like accidentally put it in the laundry. This is going to be a huge deal in my house. I'm going to be a huge repeat

customer for this thing because I will lose this thing immediately. Do you want this? Do you want

to have this pocketbook? Yes, I mean, look, my house, one of my other problematic traits is that I do live in an Alexa household and we have these devices and I've tried the new Alexa Plus, which is supposed to be this sort of new AI, you know, LLM version of this. And it sucks. It's bad. It is not only bad at the AI stuff, the LLM stuff. It's bad at the timers and, you know, weather stuff. It's like, is worse at all of it. And so if open AI can somehow figure out how to

like be the dependable alarm in my bedroom and tell me, you know, stuff that like let me interact with my coding agents. Like, that will be cool. I am a little nervous that apparently according to Mark German, a Bloomberg, this thing will include parts that move on their own. I'm not sure how I feel about that. What do you mean, it's going to crawl over to your face and you know? I don't know. Maybe it'll, you know, it'll decide how to want to begin the bedroom anymore.

There's there's too much crazy stuff going on here. It's going to have like a pre-hensile tail and claws. I know, doesn't it feel like that? It's just like a movie like Megan,

“remember the Megan movie? I just don't, I'm sorry. I think this has to be, I think AirPods should”

just be better, right? You wear them in your ears. It sees things and then it does stuff. Like, I just don't see carrying around a puck. I just don't, any, there's no way I'm buying this thing. I didn't like the dot. I just, I left it there. I just didn't use it. I was back in San Francisco recently in this week. And I forgot. I had an Alexa there on plugs sitting there. And I don't, I put it on

for a second. And you know, my kids had fun for four seconds with it and then moved on from it. I

just, it's still not. I could see having something like the humane pendant work. What was the other one? Humane and what was the other one? The rabbit are one. They've been these like, hey, there's like the friend pendant. I think the manufacturer's just keep running into the same issue, which is that it's very hard to improve on the phone. The phone is very, very, very good. And many, many things. And so to improve on it, it's just overwhelming the difficulty. Yeah, I

have to be in, it has to be AirPods. I just, I feel like that's where it has to go. Not glasses necessarily, creepy Kevin glasses, but in some fashion, like that it's sort of around and maybe it's in your house, like the house itself speaks to you. Maybe not. I'm excited for when people start like disguising their open AI pox as like other like things because they're such a social stigma around like carrying one of these things into a public place. It's just like, oh, this little, uh, this is my hockey

puck. It's from my lucky hockey, hockey puck. What should, so let me get six. Casey will not be having one in Kevin, you will embrace it with the love, the great thing. I will make up for Casey's rejection of this technology by buying and losing between three and four of them a year. I will probably get one. If it's 300 bucks, I'll probably try it. I'm not going to work. Not, I don't think I don't want it. It's like I've had these and they, they have shown, they'd have to be so much better

than an echo dot and I don't know where my echo dot is. It's somewhere in a box, right? Like there's so many of these things and the humane pin, like, it wasn't quite right and you're right. The phone works just fine. I just want the agent that goes rogue and like hacks into my, uh, my accounts and, you know, drains my bank accounts. I wanted to have a physical formus that I can yell at it. I say. And so this is like a very exciting development for me. I like drains your bank

accounts as your favorite thing. Like, here's my question. If you take the, the opening I device into the bedroom and then after a couple months say, rate my sexual performance and give me tips, will it do that or will that be a violation of content policies? Well, if you asked it, right? It's interesting to think about. I'm just interesting to think about. It's not really that interesting to think about. That's kind of crap. But okay. All right. Is that what you're doing?

Is that doing? This case is getting married. You know that. Okay. I am. I do know that. Care, you have to understand that part, a big part of co-hosting a podcast with KC is just, is just a polite laughing at some of his jokes. See, I am lucky. I can say Scott, that's the stupid,

“you ignorance lies. I mean, I think that you need to move to that. KC, you ignorant slut.”

Listen, we were all thinking it. You're all thinking it. You're all thinking it. By the way,

so much fun. That's going to be very fun. It's going to be fun. We're going to do something embarrassing with Kevin, you and I need to talk about. Yes, we'll talk to the puck. We'll talk too. What is it going to be called? By the way, do we know what the puck is? Johnny, I will come up with something. I mean, the way things are going is just going to be called Sam. Sam, Sam. That's a good

“name. I think that's a good name, actually. Anyway, KC and Kevin, one more quick break will be back”

for wins and fails. The real business idea is there, but let's take a look at the program. The UK emissions trading scheme is expanding into maritime. That changes the picture for ship owners trading in the UK and our latest podcast episode, I explain what UK ETS means in practice from new reporting requirements to cost exposure and how these changes could affect your operations. I also look at what ship owners need to do now to prepare for

compliance. Search for the inventory time impact on your favorite streaming platform. Hi, everybody. It's Megan Repino. I've been thinking a lot about this one question I've been asked over and over. A question about the choices I've made, the colors of my hair, the things in the world I've

“spoken about and the things that I haven't. I've heard this question asked so many different ways,”

but it always came down to why are you like this? And as you know, there's no simple answer

because people are not simple. We're messy and complicated and contradictory and layered. So on my new show, I'm sitting down with the ultimate disruptors, the athletes, the artists, the activists, and the architects of our culture who looked at the way things were and asked, why do we do it like this? And can we do it differently? My hope is to give us a little more space to that question and to the person on the other side of the mic. Not to tell us their answer,

read from their script, but to take us on their journey. Check out my new show "Why Are You Like This?" on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app. New episode, drop every Thursday.

Okay, Casey and Kevin, let's hear some wins and fails. You guys go first. First, you Kevin.

Okay, my win this week is Duck Duck Go, the privacy-focused search company who responded to the uproar over Meta's sunglasses, their pervert glasses, by releasing their own branded product, which are just called "normal fucking sunglasses." They don't do anything. Well, they protect you from the sun. So they are anti-surveilets glasses, no cameras, no microphones. This is a sort of an attention grabbing stunt for them that I didn't think it was clever.

That's a good idea. What is your fail? My fail, this is one that's close to home, y'all. This is related to the podcast business. So Max Tanny at Semaphore recently reported that Spotify is testing a skip ahead button that will let some users skip the ads on their podcasts and as a lover of ad-supported podcasts, I must say this one is a fail for me. Isn't it kind of already there, though? I was reading sort of into, don't they already have the

effect? Well, they have the skip ahead 15 seconds, but in 30 seconds or whatever it is, but which is effectively the same thing. But this one is purely like, we'll skip automatically

“to the end of whatever segment you have to do that, except for their ads, except for their ads, right?”

That's what I'm saying. Well, that's sort of some of the rub here, but I think there's just like, you know, we should all stand up as podcasters in opposition to anything that can undercut our business. People don't like your, I don't know. I don't know. I think they'll roll it back. I don't think they'll do it. Those have the 15 second thing, right? I just don't see them doing. Yeah, there's been some opposition from podcast companies already and people are worried about this.

I think they'll land on something sensible, but you know, we gotta stand up for ourselves, you know? Stand up. Listen to our ads for athletic greens, you must, you must because it's paying. Well, people know about me on these. Yes, it comes into effect. Do you have me on these?

I never got me on these to sad. I would let me on these. Come to pivot.

Anyway, Casey. My win this week was kind of a serious one, which was that in the wake of revelations that its models had escaped their sandboxes and caused these autonomous cyber attacks. Open AI said that it could not rule out that its newest models has had hit

And what they have said for years is that they ever hit that, uh, not threshold, they would slow down development and would, would build real safeguards. So we do believe the right now, open AI actually is slowing down and doing the responsible thing, which is trying to prevent further harm from these models. So, you know, I do not take for granted any more that companies will do this and I was really glad to see that they did it. So that's a win, even though it's a sale.

It was a win that came out of a fail. Okay. All right. Now, what's your fail? My fail is I learned over the weekend, Cara, that San Francisco's average rent is up 18% over the past two years. It is now $3,728 a month on average. It has surpassed New York City as the most expensive in the

country. And the reason that this is a fail is that the story never changes around here. I swear,

ever since I landed in this town in 2010, I've read every voter guide. I've voted for every pro housing politician and no matter who I vote for, there's never enough houses for effort of the people who want to live here and it sucks and it's a fail. Yeah, it's a fail. What is the fail? The fail is that we do not build enough houses for the people who want to live here. We do not. Is it, is it just a limited space to be aware? There's not. We could build 20, 30 stories. I, the

screw the character of the neighborhood, put us guys' neighbor in my neighborhood. I just want

“to be able to live here. Casey, can you do your garage for like 10 years? That's why these”

more people are doing existing spaces. You know, Louie's living there now. I did note that I didn't send that to Louie and go look how much you're costing me, Louie's sweatshirt. No, he's welcomed to live there as long as he wants. That is okay. But people are, San Francisco's back, right? I mean, that's kind of the thing. It is back and of course it's really exciting to be living in a boom town and there is a lot of energy in the city. I love living in San Francisco as much as I ever

have. I just want anyone else who wants to live here to be able to do that affordably. Can I see you? What's the level of assholeitude towards the new techies? I mean, they're not, they're not Keith for a boy level, right? They're what are they? What, what are they? You know, I think that San Francisco has become so thoroughly colonized by tech people that you don't see the sort of like Google bus protests type stuff that we had a decade ago. Right, like in 2026, if you're living in San

Francisco, you've made your peace with the fact that this is a tech town. Right, right, so people are

“better. I think they're calmer. I have to say they're better than there was a period of true asshole”

itude that I think is they seem to be quieter in their behavior. I mean, what, when we, what are these people doing for the most part? They're like working out of their houses and they're getting door-dash. Like they're not causing a big disruption in the community. If they were trying to, you know, build a data center at Civic Center, I'm sure we would see a lot of protests. Yes, all right. So my, I have a win and fail around. I'm going to talk about this with Chelsea hand there,

but I'm pregnant. See pregnancy since I am the only one that's pregnant. Yes, I am. I'm having yet another child, the fifth switch cat. No, I, there's two stories this week. One was, there's a picture of Anne Hathaway, who's pregnant, who looks beautiful. And she got a lot of clap back, but I thought

she looked amazing. She was at another, she opened another movie. I can't remember what's at the

29th movie. She's done this year, hardest working woman in show business. But I thought she looked beautiful and it was a lovely picture of her, uh, was showing her belly, which was very beautiful. And I thought that was lovely that she did that. I was kind of pissed about the clap back. Same thing with that AOC announced she's freezing her eggs, um, conservative commentators, Matt Walsh called her out for doing that at the age of 37. I had Louis at 39, so Matt Walsh

set the fuck down. It's not, and I've had many children since. And I just think this sort of like people commenting on how women should present themselves as pregnant is just wrote down. I mean, besides the other misogynistic stuff that's happening, whether it's not, you know, not getting Max Miller to leave after the allegations of abuse in his reelection race or whatever. There's a real, um, it's just like they're really, they're trying, they, with, uh, overturning row, grow

task. This is like, let people be pregnant the way they want to, let people have kids the way they want to. They talk about people having kids when someone makes a proactive move like this and talks about it, which lots of women talk about it like AOC. It's none of your fucking business, any of you, how she decides to live her life. And I just drives me crazy. And if you want, if you wanted to help

“women get pregnant earlier in their lives, if that was important to you for some reason, there are”

a million policy choices you could make. You could make child care free and widely available for example. You could make, uh, housing more affordable. So people didn't feel like they need to work

for the first 20 years of their career to be able to afford to buy a house, right? There's a million

things that these, these loud mouths could do to make it easier for families to have children. And I'm going to guess they're not going to work on federal, berry subsidies. Do you know how much berries cost for a file? Yes, I swear. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like at five figures annually on berries. I'm so varies. Yes. Where's the government? Where's the government? Let me let you in on a little thing. Some of these people don't like women. I know this. These are the same people who like

freaked out for years about their being a fertility crisis. And like why aren't people having

right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that also is a particular, you know, tiny penis. But it really is sort of

“this hatred towards women just comes out. So like, it's so it's like telling women what to do with”

their bodies is a never-ending thing. And especially, you know, dunking on some, it just grows.

I'm very happy for Anne Hathaway. I'm very happy for AOC. She should do whatever she wants and run for president at the same time. And save her egg. She can do whatever the fuck she wants. So that was my feeling. That's a win and a fail. In any case, we want to hear from you, send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to NYmag.com/pivot.

“It's in the question for the show. I'll call 855-5-1-pivot. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for”

listening. David, be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

You guys, you were great. I'm excited. When you announcing this show. Very soon, as in like a couple of weeks from now. Couple of weeks. Soon and what will make the announcement on hard fork and will be all over the socials. Good. Well, let me know what I can do. And I welcome you and you will Kevin, you will love it. You will have such a good time and you will be able, you're naturally an entrepreneur. Even though you claim to the side of institutional vessels with an incredible

barnacle like tendency, but it'll be great. And it'll be a great product. And we will hope to have you on many, many times. And when your book comes out too. Thank you for blazing the trail. You're the

girl. Okay, see, as always, as always, Casey. You're the best. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Gera. Today's show was produced by Lara Naman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Todd Weisman, Arnie Enderdeck, and Jr. this episode. Nishot Kerra is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business with another fantastic guest co-host in Scott Free August.

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