Director Clint Bentley on Adapting ‘Train Dreams’ for the Big Screen

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Subscribe now for a special offer on all of our games. The spirit of the book is, it's for me, it's hard to grab onto. Lots of feelings, lots of things that made me feel.

“But what would you say was the inherent spirit that you're able to transfer over to the film?”

Oh, I think I would kill it if I tried to put it into, it seemed like a sentence or two here. The life of men, something something exactly. I'm Gilbert Cruz. This is the book review from the New York Times and it's Oscar season. I love the Oscars. I've loved the mine tire life. This year I've already seen eight of the ten best picture nominees. On our last episode, I had the chance to speak with Guillermo D'Otoro about his adaptation of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.

And today we have another Oscar nominee on the show, Clint Bentley. Plint is the director and the co-writer of Train Dreams, which is a film that he adapted from the 2011 Dennis Johnson novella of the same name.

“Both tell the story of Robert Kernier. Robert is a logger. He's a rail worker. He lives in the Pacific Northwest in the early 20th century. And it's basically his life. He works. He falls in love. He has a child. He suffers a tragedy.”

He grieves that tragedy. Like any of us, he experiences things both grand and trivial. And I was moved greatly by both the book and the film, but in very different ways. And the film for its part is nominated for four Oscars, including the big one, best picture, and best adapted screenplay. So when I talk with Clint, we went right to the source. So let's start by talking about the man. Let's talk about Dennis Johnson when the New York Times pulled 500 authors and other literary figures to figure out what the great books of this century so far on.

Two of those 100 books were by Dennis Johnson, Tree of Smoke, which is this large sprawling 700 page book set during the Vietnam War. And then all the way in the other in the spectrum, you have Train Dreams, which is this short but extremely powerful book about this man's life, Robert Kernier. When did you first encounter Dennis Johnson?

I first encountered his writing actually through Train Dreams the year that it came out. I knew him by name, but I had never read anything and then Train Dreams came out.

Right around the time or right after I got out of college and I was like, I was bumming around and Train Dreams was one of the books to read that year and it was a very like good size to slip in a backpack. And so I picked it up somewhere on the road and just fell in love with the book. What was it in that book that connected you to it? I don't know, there was just something about the story of this little life and how Dennis rendered it in such a way that you felt, you felt the epicness and you felt the vastness of this small little life.

And I was raised by, I was raised in a ranging family in Florida and very working class and grnier and all the people in this book just reminded me of the of the people I'd been raised around. The book just like kind of lived inside me and I would find myself over the years like different scenes would pop up to the surface without really knowing why. At that point in your life, you're a young man, you read this book for the first time. Were you a writer? Yeah, I was I was making short films with my friends, but just for fun and didn't think of myself as somebody who would become a filmmaker.

I thought I would be a novelist and and tried very hard to be one and have a couple of like carcasses of novels on my computer.

That never that never saw the light of day and a ton of rejection letters from that time from from like every literary magazine in the in the country.

What were you writing about? I was making all the mistakes that that a young writer makes of writing about everything from incredibly like autobiographical things from my childhood or from some random party that happened all the way to you know some sort of like. I'm embarrassed to say it but like you know historical fiction, but it was good training in in terms of just like learning how to write.

Yeah, one was like the way that he talks about their first date and their first kiss where Grinier ends up proposing to Gladys. That would just always like bubble up in my mind for some reason there was just such a beauty to it. There's like a phrase that he used in there of like the nodding of the butter cups that that just was so heartbreaking.

And then there's another one that like always stuck with me as as being so strange yet very very emotional.

It was the one that like when I came back around and read it again thinking about like making it into a movie. It's one of the scenes I was like I have to make this just to put this scene in there.

“And it was also my co-writer Greg when he read it he was like oh you need to do this this reminds me of you.”

It's the one where the kid Grinier is a 15 year old kid comes across this man dying in the woods and gives him a drink of water from his own boot.

Those are the scenes that I don't know just got hold of me. You just mentioned your collaborator Greg Quidar. Train dreams is the fourth film that you've worked on. You've co-written all four with him. You've directed two of them. How did you get the opportunity to make this one in particular having read it you know 12 years ago 13 years ago? Yeah this one came in a way that I didn't think of a film project would come to me. I directed a film called Jockey that Greg and I had written together and Greg produced and that went to Sundance and a few of our producers on the film had had the rights to train dreams for several years and had been trying to find a filmmaker to make it.

“And they saw Jockey at Sundance and I think just really saw some like kinship of spirit or some kind of artistic kinship there and reached out and at first I was just so excited at the prospect.”

And then going back and reading the book again I was like I'll maybe this thing is on adaptable and I was very nervous about it. I went back and forth on it for a while knowing that I loved it but not wanting to do a bad job of it not wanting to let the book down or Dennis even though he was passed on at the time. And so it took me a minute to really like jump into it and a lot of friends talking to you on off ledges along the way. What at the time did you think was unadaptable like what was giving a pause?

Well it's just I think going back to the construction of the novella itself it's only a hundred and sixteen or seventeen pages and yet it is the entire life and entire time in the world. And that is a red flag for a movie because when you're trying to cover that much time a movie can start to feel like a Wikipedia entry just a bunch of like in this happened and that happened. And then on top of that the book has this really evocative style to it where it's very stream of consciousness and it just like slips all over the place you know and in one sentence he's a child and then the next scene he's dying and then that comes back and he's seeing Elvis on a train and and it all works so well.

“But I felt if if there were situation where we needed to pin that down to more of a traditional three-act structure with an inciting incident in blah blah blah you kill the magic of the book and I really didn't want to do that.”

So you get over your concerns your trepidation you decide to adapt this book walk me through I just ignore them. Hey I do it all the time walk me through how you start are you rereading and rereading luckily this is a fairly short book are ripping out pages underlining scenes like how do you start to sort of break this story for lack of a better phrase into one that you can translate to screen yeah I found pretty quickly that I had I did have like a sense of this what the structure could be.

And that being basically what it turned into which is like the first half of the film kind of watching him go back and forth between trying to reconcile

being away for work and coming back home and trying to spend time with the family and then the fire would come in the middle of the film it just break the narrative in half. And then the last part of the film would be more of a of a film with searching or or longing and trying to find his way back to something that he lost and wondering if he could ever do that. And so that that framework gave us enough confidence to go into it and then yeah Greg and I each on our own just read the book multiple times underlines you know anything that felt important.

It's just like random lines of dialogue that don't have a home or images or anything like that simultaneously there's a lot of research that we're both doing individually and together.

We're like reading anything I can get my hands on the image of the the boots nailed to the tree actually is is one that came from just reading some random history of logging book and learning that that was something that they had done for the guys who would ride the logs down the rivers and would break apart log jams.

“And when one of them died wherever they found his body they would nails boots to a tree there.”

So striking image. Very striking and and became something a bit larger than than the image itself which is what you hope for. But yeah there's a lot of research that we're doing and then we're just like in that document. We're starting with just like writing a sentence for every scene and that we that we know is going to be in the film and sometimes that's as simple as just like.

“Grinier comes home and it's awkward you know or the fire happens you know and then we build out each of those sentences into a paragraph.”

And each paragraph is about a scene then we start taking passes at scenes and then passing those scenes back and forth to just try and refine them along the way until we until we have a.

What we always hope is a better first draft than it is but a terrible first draft and then and then you can start refining a script from there.

So this is your first fiction adaptation and and as someone who's done it now and has seen I presume a lot of movies based on books. Do you have for lack of a less fancy word like a philosophy when it comes to adaptation what's allowed what's not allowed fidelity versus lack of fidelity. I do and it's it's funny it is one that I went into the process with and so whether it was confirmed or whether I just didn't look at it in the other evidence I don't know but I felt like whenever a book is adapted into film.

The film really has to become its own thing and the filmmaker slash screenwriter has to allow themselves to be free of the source material in terms of what happens. While being completely true to the spirit of that book there there are exceptions to that like no country for old men is an adaptation that like that book kind of already feels like a movie and was written as a screenplay or stage play before that. But that was the thing I felt very strongly and I still do with this one that like we had to be completely true to the spirit of the book and the spirit of the character and you can't all of a sudden make premiere this like striving guy who wants to like create a railroad empire something like that then you're then you're what's the point of making this book but at the same time you have to free yourself from the book itself in order to let the film become its own piece of work.

So you talked about a couple of scenes that stuck with you when you first read it what else did you want to spirit aside what else did you want to sort of transfer over in terms of tone character moments in terms of images because it's always fascinating to me to read a book watch a movie whatever order it's in to sort of say oh this yeah I remember this from the book but it feels different or looks different but it's still there. What what were you most excited about taking from one form and moving over.

The biggest thing was more a feeling like.

“The strangeness the inherent strangeness of the world that I think we.”

Living in like modern society in the city or in the suburbs or wherever life feels very safe and feels very predictable and you get. Outside of that and and you're reminded very quickly that it is not the case that was one thing I wanted to get across is like. How strange and wonderful and kind of magical.

The world itself is without embellishing anything and that's not always in like a sweet cute way sometimes that's in a very dangerous and dark way.

And the other thing is like this aspect of time and just the way that you can have a year that just drags by and you're like this is never going to end and then sometimes you look up and you know like where to the last five years go. We very rarely have an understanding of our lives in the moment we're actually living them we only start to understand them when it's too late. And yeah, so there was a lot of that I felt like there was something very special about Robert Cernier in terms of taking this person who's just an average everyday person who is just trying to lead a decent life and trying to make some money for his family and and build a little life for himself and his family.

After the break Clint talks about a few characters that he added to the film and the scenes for the book that he had to cut.

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“So often it's about what are we cutting out of this story in order to fit into a film but you added a couple characters or a couple moments a couple scenes into this.”

You added a puzzle frank. The very talkative. Logger played by Paul Schneider. You added the forest service employee played by Kerry Condon paying respect still to the novella and Dennis Johnson. How do you make the decision to layer your own storytelling on top of that? I'm putting new characters and then what were you trying to say through those characters. Yeah. With the puzzle frank, I felt like there were several sections of the book that we needed to build out that Dennis had written something about some section of time but then only writes three sentences about it, you know.

And with the puzzle frank, in particular, just about building out the characters of that world to show us why green ears. So connected to these people and to this to this world that he's living in and I've worked on a lot of crews.

Like in construction and farms where there's always somebody who talks more than he works and you're just like, please shut up man.

Well, you have him and you have the the character played by William H. Macy on people he's orange who is a little bit older, so maybe it's a more understanding. He's not working as much, but he's just he's just blabbing blabbing blabbing that he does his one job, blowing stuff up exactly exactly he had a particular set of skills. The character is larger than life on the page on peoples and I say like half of the stuff that he says in the film is just from book just lifted directly from the book and then we were really just trying to expand on that to fill out that character without ever pushing him in a direction that that's felt unnatural to him.

Terry Connets character that was one that like it took us a while to get there clear Thompson is a character in the novella but she's a widow that he's transporting. And there's not much that said between them, but it's a really important moment in green ears life that culminates in her telling him in the book that the the Lord needs a hermit in the woods as much as a preacher in the pulpit.

“And I think that's a very important measure of like understanding of his life a bit, even though he has the question back of like is that what I am a hermit even though we've watched him for like 70 pages be a hermit.”

Well, you don't always understand yourself.

Well, that's a no is understand their own life 100% and so there was like there was this amalgamation of things we were trying to do and fit in one was like keep that character in tax but expand her a bit. Another part that is a bit thematic and a bit historical which is just like we really wanted to show. These fire towers that had popped up across the Pacific Northwest there were a ton of really terrible fires and some around like 1921 and some like 10 years earlier that had gone through and just decimated the area and so then.

We have the four service that gets created and all these fire watch towers get put all over the area up there and a lot of them were operated and run by women.

You know a decade earlier his family might still be alive.

And then and then that character became a vehicle to talk about a lot of like some thematic things that I felt that I wanted to talk about in terms of. You know kind of the like the tragedy of life moving on without you and ecology and our place in the world and our place and time and all that ultimately building up to that line that's so powerful in the book itself of. The world needing a apartment the woods as much the preacher in the pulpit. I want to ask you about another line that occurs when he is talking to the the carry common character.

She says were you here for the fire he says I wasn't. My wife and child were they didn't make it.

And then he describes possibly for the first time at least in the film.

“It's a brief limmer but he describes what he's feeling as a viewer you have to largely up until that point just discern what he is feeling.”

Without relying on the character's dialogue but he says sometimes it feels like the sadness will eat me alive and sometimes it feels like it happened to someone else. I'm lucky enough where I have not had to experience that sort of grief. I know it's coming you know my parents are still out and all that stuff but how do you. I was just rewatching again that scene this morning and I almost started crying I will start crying it really is affecting how do you transfer. Transfer emotion from a page to the screen because I think you probably watched it scene 20 times and still feel that emotion.

I mean that came from a very real place that line I unfortunately have dealt with that loss that you're speaking of and lost both my folks in a very quick succession. And there was some tragedy to to it as time went on that you you do move on from something you don't feel like you can and. And sometimes that feels very distant and sometimes you wake up and it feels like they just passed on yesterday. I mean there's a bit of a cheat code with being a filmmaker that if you get a great actor. They can they do the heavy lifting for you in terms of imputing.

Something like that that could be a bit flat you know that that line could go a lot of different ways and it could be a bit straightforward but.

“I think that in particular it's just the magic of what Joel does as an actor is just a testament to his subtlety and nuance as an actor.”

Is that a scene is that a moment that you to your recollection you had to do a couple times. I know you're filming it outside trying to make sure you do it while the light is good but what was your recollection of filming that that moment. That was a really beautiful scene I think but that scene we started filming and we did a couple takes and and the sun was too high and it was just too harsh on them and they were both kind of squinting at each other. And so we all. Adolfo my cinematographer and I and Joel and Carrie we all kind of decided like let's take a break like let's give it an hour let the sun get softer.

And so we just stepped away and like took a moment had some tea and then when we got back into it it all that scene came together very quickly.

And that scene is kind of how our editor Parker Lairmy first cut it together on the assembly cut it's largely intact yeah.

And do you feel as a director is it part of your job to be. To be vulnerable with your actors as well like are you when you're talking in Joel are you referencing your own experiences with grief and stuff like that are you sort of trying to convey. What's inside of you as a director and the writer to him through that personal connection like you're taking him off to the side and telling him stuff as much as it's helpful. You know we do it we specifically with Joel and I we did a lot of that before we ever got on set and a lot of our prep would just be like these long phone conversations in the middle of the night talking about.

“And you know, you know I think like it's such a strange thing where you have to as a director I want to be as open with them as possible.”

At all times without making it about me you know what I mean so it's so it's about so they can ground their selves in their character and what that character is going through emotionally versus thinking about like what was clint thinking at there. When he very does mother and so there's a lot of that that just like it's kind of the tragedy of it where as a director I found like I'm not as emotionally wrapped up in. The scenes as they're unfolding and being as emotionally affected by them because I'm having to pay attention to so many technical elements in order to give everybody notes between takes so that we're actually using our time.

I.

I want to ask you about will patent. Oh, yeah.

The audio book for train dreams came out you know 15 or so years ago will patent narrated that he is the narrator of your film. I'm sure you know narration can be pretty dicey in films you can have Morgan Freeman. The Shawshaker definition you could have Harrison Ford and Blade Runner where they're like this is so bad we're actually going to make a new cut of this movie at which there's no narration. What would you say are the pitfalls when it comes to film narration and how did you make sure to try to avoid that?

Yeah, I mean you never want to do the thing where like somebody walks through a door and then the narrator says and then he walked through a door.

“That's what you want to avoid and it's funny Blade Runner from what I've read Harrison Ford did not want to do that.”

Why see why? Yeah, and so that's part of his performance is just like I got to get through this.

But I love the idea of a narrator like a narrator as a storyteller and in this particular sense a narrator like if you would found yourself in some like little bar in a logging town.

And you were there late at night and this guy comes up to use had too many beers and it's like hey let me tell you about this guy Robert Knier and and somebody really like tells you a story. And I always love the narrators from like Jules and Jim and he to Mama Tambien who kind of take take a sides and tell you things that don't have anything to do with the plot but have everything to do with the story. And then the other side of it was just like one of the integral pieces of why that book works so well is Dennis Johnson's voice his his narrative voice.

And so I really felt strongly that that was something that we had to pull into the to the movie itself. The story while received the only criticisms I've seen have to do with a change in tone which is like smoothing a couple things out making Grinier a little less slightly less unlikable. There's the character that you talk about first time you read the guy played by lifting Collins in the film in the book not a nice guy as you cut the learn you know he's sort of sexually abused a family member. You see that those things are something that changed on purpose because you wanted to achieve a kind of different feel in your movie those those the idea that Robert Knier is someone who.

Maybe was a little tune enthusiastic about throwing his Chinese colleague off a real bridge and the idea that the lifting Collins character is someone who is not just suffering in the woods but also as a bad person. What what were you like I don't think I need this I mean there's it's funny with clifton's character there's a whole ten minute or eight minute version of that scene really.

“We filmed the whole thing and it just like it's like 90 seconds if that yeah it's very short which I felt terrible about because again there's something about that that scene and what I think Dennis did in his writing in general was.”

to try and look at some people who had done incredibly depraved things and things that are in no world okay and try and find some little glimmer of humanity and them and try and find what's what's human about them so that we all maybe. I could each other that way right that that's my take as as a reader of his of his work and I think that scene with clifton is an example of that. From my perspective but the thing is I get just didn't work in the movie like nowhere we put even just structurally like there was nowhere we put it where it where it worked without feeling.

I think it was suddenly coming from a different movie and so yet it was an image and something that was like so potent that I felt like we couldn't lose it and so just what remains is him giving this guy a drink of water from his boot and then.

“I think it's a very interesting that he says that he didn't like to think about that moment from his life to you know it's not going to mean anything to anybody who hasn't read the book but hopefully to pay homage to to that.”

It swept up in his violence of helping carry this guy up towards the bridge yeah grab grabs his legs to help take him up gets kicked off that scene is not as built out as it is in the book partly just because of again a different medium and I've read the criticism I don't really have any any response to other than like there's things I think that like. My view points on this might evolve as I evolve as an artist but I think there are things that can work and that you can do in literature.

And and how she dies and and the kid like how they swept up in the fire that's a very in early edits that was a much longer sequence.

“But it was a cal had to be a calibration like okay how much how much are we putting people through and what are we giving them in return.”

Yeah, I mean that part is pretty sad without those images already. I've one more question you have called the ending of Dennis Johnson's novella one of the great endings in literature. It's not hyperbly I do mean that. I I sort of want to read the ending and then ask you why you think it's great but it's quite long. Do you disagree that it's that it's great.

I listened to the audiobook version and it was coming to the end it's well patent and it my heart stopped when when the book stopped I thought it was incredible.

“You know what I am going to read it you should read I'm going to read and you can cut it out if you want I'll listen to it.”

And then you're going to tell me why you why it's so great so bear with me. This is the ending of Dennis Johnson's train dreams the main character Robert Keneer is in a theater watching a performance on stage by by someone that is referred to as a wolf boy. But they hushed all at once and quite abruptly when he stood still at center stage his arms straight out from his shoulders and went rigid and began to tremble with a massive inner dynamism. Nobody present had ever seen anyone stand so still and yet so strangely mobile.

He laid his head back until his scalp contacted his spine that far back and open his throat and a sound rose in the auditorium like a wind coming from all four directions low and terrifying. From the ground beneath the floor and it gathered into a roar that sucked at the hearing itself and coalesced into a voice that penetrated into the sinuses and finally into the very minds of those hearing it taking itself higher and higher. More and more awful and beautiful the originating ideal of all such sounds ever made of the fog horn and the ships horn the locomotives loan some whistle of opera singing and the music of flutes and the continuous moon music of bagpipes and suddenly it all went black and that time was gone forever.

He was pretty good. He was okay. He knew what he was doing. Why is that so great I mean as soon as you like I came to that and I was like that's the end of the movie that's perfect that's going to be fantastic to what it would an ending and then we shot that and then two things happened one you realize very quickly at least for where for my abilities now as a filmmaker I could not translate the magic that how do you do. The originating ideal of all such sounds ever made right what is that sound like and we tried some versions and sound designed to make something like that and couldn't do it and then simultaneously like we had a very early version of the plain sequence it's in the book as well and that was going to lead up to this ending and we were watching the film down and it was just so clear that after that plain sequence.

That plain sequence the film was over like that's it and and then the rest of it's just kind of trailing off and as an artist or a filmmaker you either listen to that or you don't that your own peril. And so I listen to it and we started restructuring the ending around the the by plain sequence and letting that be the natural ending of the film. I mean it's a very moving ending you have this movie that is so earthbound for so long and then in its final moments almost as if he's ascending to heaven the final moments of his life it's that you go up into the air and then and then it's over was great. Thank you. Thank you very much.

“Coming up Clint has a few recommendations about what you should read next.”

So, Clint for more than a decade every week the New York Times book review is asked authors of recurring set of questions about their reading and their reading lives.

It's it's part of a series that we called by the book so Clint Bentley I have some extremely specific book questions for you first what is your favorite book that no one else has heard of.

It's called the collected works ability the kid it's by Michael and Don Che it's it's so much more than what it sounds like it's this very strange book that is a collection of short stories photographs poetry it's just like it's hard to categorize what exactly it is it's a very magical book where you like you don't know what you're going to encounter as you flip each page.

“I've never heard of this it's fantastic he's got another one that he did a similar thing with that I've got like coming from the library so I can read it but.”

I I love that your library.

Always are there any classic novels that you only just recently read for the first time.

Well yeah yeah that is an ongoing thing I feel like I'm forever catching up one that I've got here that I just picked up that I sadly have never read to the lighthouse. Oh wow I've read like you know I've read Virginia wolf's prose but I've never read a full book by her and so so I just picked it you have a copy there. Oh yeah yeah which genres do you especially enjoy reading and are there any that you avoid just are not to your liking. There are no genres that I avoid there are ones that I read less like I don't read that much sci-fi but not out of not liking it just just out of like I don't know that I'm as drawn to it.

But the books that I love the most and the things that I'm drawn to the most are books that like aren't of a specific genre and break apart. The conventions of whatever genre they're working in like that don't don't say book or I've just gotten into John Berger recently and and start reading some of his not some of his fiction which is lovely. Is there a specific title that you would recommend.

I would and it's a bit out of order he did this trilogy that I just like stumbled upon the second one is the one that I started with and that I read called once in Europa.

“But it's a collection of it's like a short story cycle and I think it for fans of train dreams might be fans of that as well because there's very similar themes about.”

Life kind of moving on and leaving people behind and some wonderful things coming from from modernization and some really tragic things coming from it. Your filmmaker who obviously loves books and loves reading is there a book about filmmaking that you would recommend that people read. Oh yes, I'll give you a couple depending on your flavor I find there's there's there's been a few that have been written by or about filmmakers that are really I think special. So Tarkovsky has one, Andre Tarkovsky has one called sculpting in time that is a really phenomenal book and he was at the end of his life towards the end of his life when he wrote it and it's very much like.

Not only him reflecting on his life, but him reflecting on the form and so it's got both him speaking biographically about how he became who he is as an artist while also talking about what he feels like a special about the form and unique about the form.

There's another one about David Lean it's just called David Lean of biography and it's just it's like graphic but it goes film by film.

Of course the biography of David Lean is going to be epic and it's really it's got to be really good and I think really like gives a glimpse not only of that artist but also of like film developing over the like like film as a medium developing over the 20th century. And last one I'll say is not film related but I love it and I recommend it to everybody. It's called Coltrane on Coltrane as a collection of interviews with with John Coltrane. That I I have learned so much as an artist and and about life like it's such a it's such a special book.

“I think that's it. I think I ran out of time.”

I feel like we can talk for another hour. So do I play it. Thank you so much for joining the book review podcast. This has been a real delight. It's been a joy. Thank you for having me. This show is produced by Amy Pearl in Sarah Diamond. It's edited by Larissa Anderson and Paula Schuman and mixed by Pedro Rosato. Our theme was composed by Alicia by E2. I'm Gilbert Cruz. Thanks for listening.

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