Wife’s Ex Is My Child’s Godfather

>> My wife told me that she wasn't comfortable with me talking to this coworker anymore. She made, you know, a threat that she was going to leave me that you would try to keep me from seeing my daughter. >> Hold on, are you, did you date this person or are you sleeping with this person? >> No, why are these threats so cost it? >> Hey, what's up, what's up, this is John with Dr. John Deloni's show talking to real people going through real challenges in their lives.

In the lives of their spouses, their kids, their mental and emotional health, but every got going on in your life. Pull up a seat, and we're going to figure out what's the next right move.

“Click the link in the show notes if you want to be on the show, you can fill out the form and if you don't know how to go to show notes like me.”

Then ask a young person in your life, because they know what show notes actually are. It's got to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and talk to Dawson, dude, he has a creek, what's up Dawson? >> Hey, John, how are you doing? >> I'm a good brother, how are you, man? >> I've been better.

>> What you got going on, brother? >> So I guess my question that I have for you is, how do I deal with my wife controlling the behavior and double standard? >> Oh, man, what's going on?

>> My wife and I have had several arguments over the past several years that kind of always revolve around this female coworker of mine.

I knew her before my wife, while I should probably also add that my wife and I both work for the same company, so we see each other every day. And then so after we started dating, my wife told me that she wasn't comfortable with me talking to this coworker anymore. She made, you know, threats that she was going to leave me, that you would try to keep me from seeing my daughter if I kept talking to her. >> Hold on, are you, did you date this person or are you sleeping with this person? >> No, why are these threats so caustic?

“>> That's what I've been trying to figure out.”

I've only had a professional relationship with this coworker.

We've never hung out. You've only texted briefly, handful of times.

She's in a committed relationship. It's just always just been just professional. >> Okay, so let me jump in here, so I'm trying to get context and I know there's another side to this with your, with, I'm assuming you're saying double standard. I'm assuming your wife is involved in something else. There's been people over the years that my wife is mad and she said, watch out for this one.

>> Right. And I've always, always taking that to heart, actually, that's not true. The times I haven't taken that to heart, it's not been good. And so, if your wife said, "Hey, I know this person. I've worked with this person to not a safe person to be around for any number of reasons." Has it been hard for you to go, "Okay, cool, got you.

My relationship with you, my wife is more important than this. Or is it felt out of the field?" Or you're like, "No, are you digging your heels in? Tell me how this dynamic is going." Because it sounds strange to me that your wife would just meet somebody, see the all work together, like we all do. And then be like, "If you don't stop talking to her, I'm taking away your kid. I'm divorcing you. I'm leaving. That seems like, whoa, whoa, whoa."

“>> Yeah, that's what just really blindsided me. I just, I don't understand, because it's never really talked to her.”

>> Talk directly into the phone for me, buddy.

>> Sorry, you never really talked to any conversations with her.

She's just always from the start to say to me that she doesn't really like her. But she's never had any real reason that she's given me to say it, why she doesn't like her. >> So what's the other side of this coin? >> So after she told me, you know, you got to stop talking to her. I, you know, respected, you know, relationship is said, "Okay, I'll stop talking to her."

So a year and a half goes by, so working with this coworker, we see each other, but we're not talking anymore. So it's just very awkward. And during this time, my wife has started talking to other men. And at work, she has one coworker, who's in his 50s, she's married as kids, you know, they're grown up kids, you know, in college.

I knew her. So she's just saying they're, you know, really good friends, and he helps her deal with any type of question she has about, you know, I don't know, day-to-day life, first things.

“And it just kind of frustrated me, because I was like, "Why are you going to him instead of me for one?"”

But then she just would always go back to, he's just a good friend. There's nothing, you know, there, you know, romantically.

And I was like, "Okay, fine, whatever. I'm not really a jealous type." So I kind of just left it at that. And then our daughter was getting baptized, and she was insistent on having, having this guy that she knew from high school. They're good friends. I met him. He's, you know, seems like an okay guy. She just kept saying, "I want this guy to be a daughter's Godfather." And I said, "Okay, fine." And then later on, I kind of discovered that she and the Godfather had dated in high school. She never bothered to tell me this.

And she actually cheated on him, they broke up, and then ended up getting back together later on. And then obviously they slept together, and what she didn't want to tell me any of this. So meanwhile, I'm not talking to my coworker for over a year and a half, and she's doing contact with an old ex-boyfriend, and talking to other guys that work.

“Where else, so this situation feels huge. Where else in your marriage? How long have you been married, by the way?”

I guess technically, not even six months. We met four years ago. She was pregnant after only four months of dating, and then we just recently got married. Okay. Where else do you all are you experiencing what you're calling double standards? And I'm thinking of things like, "Her yelling at you for being mad at you, for leaving your clothes around your new house that you share together,

but her clothes are all over the place." Where else is there double standards in small ways like that? If any.

I don't know if there's really any small ones, it's always mainly about her having a lot of guy friends,

and then her not allowing me to have even really one female friend.

“I guess that's what's then the biggest issue here, I don't really...”

The bigger issue to me is, you all don't have a way to communicate together. Yes. You don't have a roadmap for conflict, you don't have a roadmap for connected communication together. There is a caustic, it's going to be my way, and you'll just do it, I say. That's how it's been since pretty much my daughter or daughter was born, is she just...

Why did you really... I wanted things to work out, I thought things would get better. And they just progressively have gotten worse. Yeah. It appears to me your wife does not like the life she signed up for.

And she's holding you responsible for the choices that she has co-created together with you. And she tells me that she does resent me, and she doesn't respect me, and that she's embarrassed to be my wife. Well, bro, lead with that next time. Yeah. You know what I mean?

I just feel like there's no winning because any time I bring up something that bothers me,

and she takes it as, like, I'm leaving you on divorceing, you know, that's always been the big threat.

Y'all still may share a house, Y'all will forever share a daughter, she's left you. The question is, "A, can y'all get together and rebuild something awesome?"

The problem with that analogy that I'm always using, you got to rebuild your marriage, is it does take both of you?

And there are a lot of times when one person is like, "We got off to a bad foot, a bad start, we've been doing this for a decade, and the tower is falling over, that was our marriage, and we'll rebuild a new one." One person's like, "I will, I'm willing to do the work to rebuild the other person's like, "No, it's your fault it fell over, I'm not doing anything."

“And that's what it sounds like where you are.”

Yeah. And so, here's what I want to challenge you to do, okay? I want you to challenge you to make a list of what must be true. Like, I need a wife that I can have honest, hard conversations with. I want a wife that will spend the rest of her life learning how to see and know and celebrate me.

And yes, challenge me too. I will make that same commitment. And then I want you, and this is a strange one, I want you to become not through manifestation nonsense or not through, like, chanting to yourself in the mirror, but through stone-cold action. I want you to become a man that you respect.

I want you to become a man that your daughter respects. Okay? And that means treating everybody your wife included, and your wife has said some pretty awful things to you. I'm embarrassed to be your wife. You'd gross me out.

I don't respect you. Like, all that's pretty gnarly things to come back from when someone looks she and I tells you that. Someone who's like, "Dragon around her ex-boyfriend and lying to you about it." And not only dragon around her ex-boyfriend and lying to you about it, but integrating that person that other man into the forever life of your daughter. Someone who's holding herself to a different standard than you in the workplace.

Like, all that man, like, I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect.

While I tell you, here's what must be true for this marriage to continue.

This sounds brochee is looking for any reason to solidify this marriage as over. And it sounds like she's of the type of coward that wants to force your hand so that she can walk around the office and say this guy left his daughter. Look, I left me. And I can become a martyr in this thing, too.

“That's what I've kind of got the feeling of because she'll always just be bringing this up and saying that they were getting into voice.”

But then she'll tell me if she wants me to go and file. Have you looked on the eye and said, "I will not file for divorce." If you want to get divorced, I'll honor it. But you go follow the paper. Yes.

What did she say? She won't do anything, so just get quiet. And that's the definition of cowardice right there. And I'm sorry that you're having to deal with it. You have a choice to make brother.

Do you want to go ahead and dig your heels in and say, "I'm not doing this." I'm not going to be the person who dissolves this marriage. I want to continue to know that for me, the guy I look in the mirror, becoming a man that I respect is. I've fought for this thing to the very last day. Or as looking yourself in the mirror and respecting yourself saying, "My daughter is living through my wife's firestorm right now."

And the greatest gift I can give this entire house, myself included, is I will... You don't have the courage to do it. You just have the courage to set fire to everything. You don't have the courage to come tell the people to get out of the building. I'll do that. But that sounds like your choice, man.

Your wife is done with the marriage. Yeah. And now it's just a matter of who's going to sign the papers.

“And it might be that you have to deal with the blowback of her going around the office saying,”

"Oh my gosh, my husband left me. He left his daughter. What a scumbag. What a... Maybe. My guess is... Well, she's already texting family members saying that, you know,

that I'm basically cheating or, you know, just because I'd say, you know, "Hey, hi to this coworker."

I miss you'll call me toxic and say, you know, I'm crazy for bringing up things that I see.

I see a coworker texting you at 9 o'clock at night. And then she'll just be like, "Well, I'm going to block him." And I'll be miserable. I work just like you are. She'll just face stuff like that. Well, cool. Let her know that in court, all of her text messages become part of the record.

Yeah. And all of her Facebook exchanges and her WhatsApps, and they can go get all of that stuff now. It's all going to be part of the record.

“As will your text messages with this mysterious coworker of yours or whatever?”

Yeah.

But what you'll had, what you wanted to have never happened.

Correct. And you get to decide what happens next, man. But I would frame everything from as the man of this amazing young daughter. Can I look myself in the eyes and respect what I'm doing next? I just want what's best for my daughter and right now I just feel like this is just going down the path.

It's not going to fit her at all anymore. It's already down that path. Yeah. And you're getting divorced and your wife getting half custody of her and having this hurt your daughter Bay then this I mean, you made a child with this person.

So this is in half of your child is this person. Like what you can do moving forward has become a stable sturdy presence for her for the next 20 or 30 years. But you're playing a really long game right now. Because you made a human with somebody who treats you like crap and does not want to live in reality. And so I want to be a person.

I remember telling some guy that I was sitting with behind closed doors like who just got decimated.

“I think grossly and unfairly in a divorce proceeding.”

And I said, all right, then you have the choice to make. Go up every week for every month for the next one year to your five years ten years so that one day when the light comes on for your in this case is son when the light comes on. Will you be able to be somebody that you were you respected and that's going to be tiring and exhausting and heartbreaking all those things will be true. Those feelings will be real. But can I be emotionally mature?

Can I be strong? Can I be respectable enough to go do the next right thing even despite all these big heavy feelings? And that's what adults do. Yeah, I just, I don't feel like myself anymore. Yeah, you know, just then be down too much.

Okay, then let's then let's rise up. Or rise up sound dramatic. Let's, let's stand up.

And let's write down here's what must be true.

Here's what I'm worth. And I'm going to be respectable. I'm going to respect myself moving forward with my decisions and my actions. Because at the end of the day, brother, that's that's literally all you can control here. That's it.

What are you going to do next? And she can text your family and friends. My guess is this type of person your co-workers know. And if they don't, come bless him. But her co-workers know.

And you can't help her bombing text messages and trying to, when she goes to court and trying to, like sue you for, like, oh, man, you can't control any of that. You can just control I'm going to do the next best right thing for me and for my daughter. And what your daughter needs right now is some sort of steadiness in this crazy storm. She's been dropped in the middle of.

And for everybody out there who's in a really messy, gnarly twisted up relationship marriage won't just straighten out all out. It will just magnify and amplify what already exists. It's not the get out of jail card.

“And so dealing with the realities of your relationship right now is really important before you sign a legal document.”

It's really important before you make a human and you'll skip that step. So here we are, brother. So thanks for calling me. I don't have any good, like, great, like patch on the back advice other than start for you to stand up tall and say, I'm going to take decisive, respectful, dignified action starting now.

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Right here on this show with Helix better sleep starts right now. All right. I'm going to bring on James first in Newark, New Jersey, James you there. Hey, Dr. Don area.

“All right. Got you, brother. I'm doing good. All right. Let's bring on Laura. Hey, Laura, are you there?”

Yes, I am. All right. Awesome. So are you all in the same location right now or are you all at different places? Okay. All right. Cool. So I don't know much about what this call is about. So James, you're first. So go ahead and let it rip. All right. Laura and I have been married about six years, two small kids. And it's clearly the entire time I have just been a horrible person.

What does that mean? What does that mean? I've been horrible partner. Not present. I haven't shown up. I've only cared about myself. Like you said, we have two small kids. I've just been a horrible father. Okay. Hold on. You're using big words. Like be specific for me.

You haven't shown up. What does that mean?

“You've been out of the bar without the club. You just sit there on the couch and watch TV where your wife is trying to manage all these two. These both these kids. Like what does that mean?”

I do work quite a lot and sometimes, you know, I have to work long hours. And then when I'm not working, it could just be hanging out with my friends or, you know, the second part of this as far as changing to save our marriage does have to do with the fairs. It's where being a horrible partner that has been contingent.

It's something that I have dealt with way before I met my wife that I have always been unfaithful to whatever partner I was with.

I constantly seek external validation from other people, other than my significant other. It would be texting or face timing or face both messaging. It just, it's always happened and every relationship I was in. And unfortunately, in this relationship with my wife, I did physically cheat with a coworker. Just one.

Just one.

“Okay. Are you committed to that story? Is that the full truth?”

Okay. Okay. And I just, this all came to light. It's December when my wife found messages. I'm not a pet because it's just not like it was in the first time she found out moment.

She's called me several times throughout our relationship. Whether it was something stupid or inappropriate conversations. And we've had conversations about it.

And every time I was caught, I'd apologize and I would tell her how sorry I was and how it would never happen again.

I need to tell him it's just progressively go worse. I was just hiding better. I would sneak better.

We were at that point, I believe.

We are legally separated now. Okay. Did you pull the trigger or did she? She did for security for herself and for our family. Sure.

Because she's afraid that I can make good, conscious decisions. And I don't blame her. Yeah. Laura, tell me where you are. Yeah.

So to clarify some of the things that he was saying when he says he does his own thing. He does the stuff that he would still do as if he was a teenager. He would, you know, if you wanted a dirt bike, he would rebuild a dirt bike. He would, you know, hang out with his buddies or whatever he needed to do.

Just make sure that he's done first before he was ever able to help me pick up the kids or do anything with the kids.

This has been going on our entire relationship. I kind of made peace with that part of the relationship that I was going to take on a hundred percent of our life. And I kind of made peace with that. Not saying I wasn't resentful, but definitely made peace with that. Where I'm struggling is I feel that I have let him cross my boundaries so many times.

Like I said, that caught him multiple times doing this. Every time I tell him more, if I catch it again, he talks, talks me into manipulates me into saying, Oh, well, it's really not that bad and it's not really what you're seeing. But it's kind of come closer to home. It's now with my friend.

His, he was talking to one of his friend's wife inappropriately. Our neighbors accepting our children. So it's really just hitting home more. Yeah, man, that's what a mess. So how can I help?

What do you all aiming to do here? So he's telling me that he's changed. He's now going to church. He's going to therapy. He listens to your show now.

You know, he promises me this is never going to happen again.

And I just really don't believe it because we've just been down this road before. I feel like it's just a toxic cycle. And so I guess my question for you is, you know,

“can people actually change, you know, can cheaters actually stop cheating?”

Or is this just a toxic cycle, you know, in a relationship that we both have to recognize as, you know, the relationship is not a healthy one for both of us. I mean, at the 30,000 foot level, yes, I would not do this job, if I didn't believe that everyone, anyone's capable, not everyone, that most people are capable of change.

That this is a word that has religious overtones to it, but I mean it in a bigger way that there's not redemption for folks. I believe in that. In this particular situation, James, you've got some demons, brother, right? Here.

And the road ahead is good. It would be very challenging for both of you. Is it possible 100% is it going to happen overnight? Could you answer church a few times? I went to therapy a couple times and absolutely not.

“And it takes an overhaul of, I guess the best way I could say this is,”

it takes you guys both, both of you recognizing our marriage is over. It's in ash. It's over. Do we want to rebuild something completely new from the floor up or not? And the couples who make that turn and work together

to learn all new skills, all new relationships. We relate new connected communication tools, new connected conflict tools. Dude, you will build something that will stay on the test of time. It will change your family tree. But anything short of that becomes the same,

as you said, Laura, the same loop-delub cycle. What are the signs that somebody is changing? If I was your daughter, what would you tell me to do? This is happening to your daughter. Um.

My wisdom from my daughter will be, I hope I have raised you in a way where you know that no matter what decision you make, I will be right here with you. Okay.

“And I would tell her the road ahead if you want to make this thing work”

is very, very hard for both of you. Because my guess is James, tell me if I'm wrong. Um. And by the way, I'm happy to be wrong on this one.

"Hey, I'm going to go do something. I need to go speak at work a little bit longer." And your response to that is hard to hear. Because him having to work a little bit later, changes what your picture of the day looked like.

Correct. And he might have learned early on. I'm just not going to tell her. Right. And so it might mean that you've got to go through a period of

opening your hands up, opening your arms up a little bit more being softer to when things actually change because they do. And James, you're going to have to deal with the demons. You've been treating people as though they are disposable.

Sounds like your whole life, huh? Yeah. Where does that come from? What's the route of that, man?

“I think just talking to the phone for me.”

Thanks for always having a problem with the person I see in the mirror.

How come? Why don't you like James? Not exactly sure. I'm not working through with my therapist. So I'll have to get back to you on that one.

And so here's what I want you all to do, okay? I want you all to. It sounds like you all can be in the same room. Can you all share a meal together? Yeah.

Okay. And here's what I want to happen in the next 48 hours. And Laura, this is going to take some homework on your part. And this is going to take some homework on your part, James. I want you all to both map out an ideal, a true separation.

You'll aren't really separated right now. Right now, Laura is punishing James. And that can't, I mean, that's not going to get you all where you want to be. That's not going to get you the safety inside your chat that you want.

Laura and James is always going to be like dance monkey dance.

He's going to be trying to be performing for you. Right?

“So that he can get the carrot at the end of the stick.”

I can get to see the kids. I can get to see you. I can get a hug. I can write. I can tell you another sob story or whatever.

And so like coming up both of you draft one. And it could be a week. It could be a month. I want you all to draft a true. Growing up, we're going to act like adult separation.

Okay. For seven days, I'm going to go spend the night with these two guys. I'm going to go stay at my mom's house. I'm going to stay at my dad's house. I'm going to stay in a hotel.

Like what, whatever that looks like. Or we just simply do not have the money.

Here's what it's going to look like inside our house.

Separations were not going to talk about the relationship stuff. I don't want to hear your therapy. Like we're going to just simply. Co-manage this house for seven days. And at the end of the seventh and I want you all to negotiate when you come down with your

idea of James and your idea of Laura. I want you all to both negotiate that into sign it. Like spit shake on it. Like this is we're going to hold to this in James. By the way, you're feeling like a Broadway actor right now.

And this will give you some peace too. Because you haven't dropped your shoulders yet in a long time. You've dropped your head. But not your shoulders. Give what I'm saying.

Yeah. Okay. And then a key part of this seven day exercises. We will have on the calendar the date, the time and the location of where we're going to meet up, whatever cafe, whatever diner, whatever whatever.

We're going to meet up. And we're going to talk about how each other's doing. And that's you Laura. You're going to hand him.

“If you want to keep going seven days of here's what must be true this week to begin slowly”

rebuilding trust. If you want to still do that. And it might be Laura. You're like, I'm not ready even for that yet. Cool.

And James, you're going to go cool. I'm going to keep becoming the most respectable version of myself. I can possibly be. I can possibly create. Okay.

Do you want to say in? Yes. And at some point y'all will circle back up and probably end up in a, in a counter's office together to handle dynamics, to handle conflict, to handle that. I'm going to give you right now before before we go.

I want to give you a framework to either of y'all taking notes. Yes. Okay. I want you to write this down. Okay.

I want this to guide the conversation you'll have about a separation of seven days, a 30 day don't go beyond 30 days because any starts getting real wonky. But here is the framework I want you to use. Okay. Okay.

Here is what I see happening. Here's what happened. Number one. Number two. Here's the story I made up about what happened.

Number three. Here's how I feel.

Here's what must be.

Here's what I want to have happen next.

Okay. And both of you use that framework. So when she says James, I actually don't want you to leave. I want you here.

Cool.

“Or I want you to go stay somewhere for seven days.”

And you can say, all right. What just happened is you're kicking me out for seven days. The story I'm making up is this marriage is over. You'll never love me again. Whatever that makes me feel empty, hollow,

embarrassed, ashamed of all the things I've done, all that stuff. Here's what I want to have happen next. I want you to promise me you'll be at our lunch in seven days. Do you understand? Yeah.

And here's what that exercise does.

It lets us own our stories, our feelings, and our wishes for what happens next. And then we open our hands and hope to God, the other person will love us enough to follow through. And Laura, you have to decide.

I want to be a wife, not a mom. Great. And I know you've probably been forced in that role, like you said, and James, you have to decide. I'm going to stop being a little boy.

I'm going to be a grown man who honors my wife and loves my kids. And the best way I can love my kids is by triply honoring and loving my wife well. Yeah. And I'm telling you both, I made it real simple.

This will be a exercise in hell.

“And I think you're both worth it if you want to do it.”

Okay. Thank you. James, anything else? I want to thank you for your time. Thank you.

Do I think change can happen? Yes, it's changed in this kind of situation. Hard. Unimaginably hard. Has it been done?

Yep. With people all the time who have put in the work. Is it worth it? I think there is nothing else in the planet worth more than. Getting yourself right and getting your marriage whole.

So it's worth the work, but man, it's hard. Man, it's hard. Thanks for calling. Thanks for being honest and brave. This show is sponsored by Better Health.

Financial stress does not just damage our bank accounts. It can also take a toll on our mental health, our emotional health, and our relationships. Money worries cause anxiety and they're one of the leading sources of conflict for couples. I know this personally. My wife and I struggled for years because of financial stress.

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That's Better Help, HELP.com/deloney. Alright, let's go out to Dallas and talk to Mary. Hey, Mary, what's up? Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

“Of course, thanks for jumping on here last minute. What's going on?”

A little nervous, so, sorry, an advance in the flustered. Oh, you're all good, you're all good. I may have had to do that before too, so. Yeah, okay. So just to kind of keep my thoughts in order, I wrote my primary concern in some context.

If you don't mind if I just read that. Sure. Go for it. So primarily, I'm dealing with losing respect for my husband due to his lack of consistency and follow-through. When times get tough and we're in a season of conflict.

So for some context, you've been together 12 years. Most of the relationship, we've kind of just coasted through without any major conflict. Things have been good. And then four years of marriage and two kids later, we decided to become intentional about building a better relationship and getting to the root of the repeat fights that we get into.

But the problem is we never seem to make it past the discussion phase and into true resolution.

We seem to fight about the same things over and over and the fights follow the same pattern. And with him promising to change and wanting to change. And then things are good for a little bit and then they flip and we're back to square one. And then on top of that. During our conversations, things seem to get derailed because we have common communication issues.

And so I'm often less feeling unseen and is respected and I just feel like we're at an impasse and it's leading me to start losing respect for him the more we continue to have to fight about the same things.

So when it comes to conflict over the same things over and over, I have good news and bad news.

“The bad news is the Gothman's report that 69% of marital conflict is what they call pervasive.”

It will always be there. And there is an element to making peace with it. Now I'm going to caveat the heck out of this so hang on okay. You don't make peace with fights about abuse or showing up or like saying, hey, I want some help with this with our kids and it been met with. Well, I'm just too busy in my video games.

That's not what we're talking about.

So give me some examples of things that are constantly showing up.

So I think I used to be the person that would get mad that he folded the towels wrong. Okay. But I will say we are past that point. Like we can celebrate you know what the towels are folded. Yes exactly and I have let go a lot of control over little things like that.

But I think the place where I struggle is seeing him not.

“I'm trying to find the best way to put this but I feel like a lot of the times I don't see any effort or intention behind his actions.”

I feel like he just floats through life and is along for derived and an analogy that I really resonated with was. I am this ocean with all this chaos and things underneath the surface and he's just about on the top along for derived and oftentimes it's good because he is really agreeable and he's not an angry man and he's an amazing father and husband. But I am stuck with feeling like I'm in control all the time and. Do you ever over the four years you'll have been married in the years before that when you'll date it.

In times when he quote unquote took control. How did you meet that? You're not doing it right. Why don't you do it like this? I can't move you pick this place over that place.

Why do you fold the towels like that? In his early on the efforts that he put forth to control something or they met with relief and I'll think God you're driving.

“Or they met with you need to control better and differently.”

I would say in the very beginning probably the latter. But to be honest there hasn't been a lot of instances where I can remember him taking full ownership or control of things. What's the thing or two that you would love for him to take ownership of? I feel like I have done a lot of work to give him grace and to not nitpick every time he leaves something around or. Doesn't clean something thoroughly but at the same time.

It often feels like. His him not being aware of things and him not just looking around and doing something as more work to my play and it. Feels like him his mom. And it doesn't feel like a partnership. But I 100% understand what you're saying no question about it.

The challenge though is those patterns are often co-created not always sometimes you just have burnout through smoke weed.

Want to play video games and their poor lives are just holding everything together right doesn't sound like him right. No other times there are wives who just beat their husbands down and they're like you know what I'm out. I'll be here because I said I would be here I'm going to be a good a good dad to these kids best I can and you tell me to do some I will do it every time. Right and I don't want to say that we're there okay but you often in the middle. There is a.

Why aren't you stressing about this as much as I'm stressing about it and what you're trying to do there is make him care about a thing as much as you do. And he doesn't and so either the thing that you're worried about the piles the whatever just simply isn't that big of a deal or. It's your problem to solve or we need to have the deeper conversation which is when there are dishes in the sink and you see how tired I am.

Have you all had that depth of a conversation yet.

We have. And we have. One of the things that we've done is created a whole list of tasks that need to be done around the house and we've assigned them to each other and so on the surface level. And so, we're not really an issue anymore. It's more so like him.

Being able to. Shut down and not take care of something and then me feeling like I need to pick up the slack or him feeling or me feeling like he needs to turn to me to make every decision or turn to me to ask the question instead of just figuring things out on his own. Fair and two things to play here one my guess is and I may be wrong my guess is this is a learned behavior from him very Pavlovian. He has learned if I go do the towels if I go clean the bathroom I'm probably going to do it wrong. Yeah, it's so I'm just going to let her tell me when she wants me to do it and man when she says it I'll do everything on that list.

And let me put this way people generally not always but generally go where they are celebrated.

And so the man and let me say the second thing here is a lot of what you're saying you've you've prefaced almost everything you've told me about him with I feel that I feel that.

“And the challenge I want you to wait through is I feel this good that feeling is important to acknowledge and to metabolize and then we have to ask ourselves is this feeling true.”

I feel like he's doing all the tasks he's just not doing them with the right spirit well now I mean that's then we get into a moving finish line and what we're trying to do is I want him to be is concerned and anxious about this places I am. And what that means is that's a big alarm system that says oh I need to go deal with why I am overwhelmed why I am anxious about things in this house with our kids with our finances with the cleanliness with whatever you're wrestling with. And here's a guy next to me that's got peace.

And I don't want to I don't want to get mad at him for. Be Bob and through life if. He's done the things that we agreed make me feel seen and known. Because now we're getting into he's not doing him with the right attitude or the right spirit or the right heart or and it becomes more more amorphous and we're just trying to get someone to feel the same thing we're feeling.

Our feelings are our feelings when you when you all sat down and said okay here's the task list and you said here's what I here's what must be done around the house we just got to do these things.

And here's what I need to feel seen and known. Did you also ask him. How can I see and know you better. Yeah we've had that conversation what what does he say. He wants me to ask how his day has been and give him more hugs.

He's a very. I feel simple in that way and. I do do that I do make enough for to do that. But I think. It can be hard for me to.

I do those things when I'm feeling emotionally disconnected.

“So I think that's kind of where I struggle.”

So I think you hit the nail on the head I'm you know I have a lot of my own anxieties and things and. I feel oftentimes a lot. You know alone in my own head in my own craziness and then that causes me to feel disconnected from everything and from him and so then. It's hard for me to give him what he needs which makes him feel disconnected. I think.

I just create a weird dance. Yeah in Mary like as a guy who has struggled my whole life with anxiety. What you just said resonate with me so powerfully. What are some things that make you anxious. Oh my gosh everything.

Name me a couple. My kids.

“Okay they're health they're safety their education all of it.”

All the above. Okay. My family. Okay. Dynamics and my family.

But a political climate. Yeah.

Yeah. My relationship now. Yeah.

“As a guy who avoided it for years and almost burned his marriage to the ground.”

Can I just please implore you.

Just go head directly through the anxiety and go see somebody. So I do see it there. Okay. Yeah. But how long I.

I've seen her few for a few months now. And we're still I would say in the beginning stages of setting a relationship and that kind of thing. And I also am on some anti anxiety medications that have helped me through the postpartum phase. So I am confident that I'm heading in the right direction for my own personal healing. I've like picked up hobbies and I'm trying to do everything I can.

How's your sleep? It's okay. My husband does all the overnight. Okay. How is your.

Do you have any close friends? I do but not in person. I don't live close to people so it's a lot of. Okay. Let me say this.

Your body would be failing you. If it let you exhale inside your own skin knowing you don't have anybody you can call the middle night that will show up to be with your kids. And I could go on and on and on.

Here's what I want you to hear me say.

If you have a husband who will sit down and have these conversations with you.

“You will like look around and say I think things look good around here but give me the list and I will knock everything out on it.”

I'll take all the overnight shifts and then I'll get up and go to work the next day. Does it get up and go to work the next day? Yeah. Okay. Oh, I'm not saying this is 100% true but I want you to hold space for I may be experiencing the world not as it truly is.

And that could be both this disorienting and really empowering. Is that fair? Yeah, I think that's fair. And when you have a husband who says here's how you can love me. You can just say good morning.

You can give me a hug. You can put a note on my pillow. And those things feel hard. I want you to double down and walk through the heart because a lot of anxiety is teaching your body. I'm driving now. I can do hard scary things.

I'm worth being trusted and your body will over time turn down the anxiety alarms. Okay. That's like where I was asking about your therapist. I would love for you. And again, I trust your licensed therapist.

“But man, if you go in with pervasive, strong anxiety, you should be leaving after three or four or five sessions.”

You should be leaving with.

Here's the thing I want you to practice when you get home.

Because anxiety, healing from anxiety, like the therapeutic modality, it's pretty straightforward. And I want you to hear me say I'm on the other side of it. I got deep resounding peace in my life. My marriage has never, ever, ever been stronger. So I want you to know that on that side of it.

Okay. But it took me like being terrified when I realized I'm experiencing the world in a way that nobody else is. And what if I'm the problem? Instead of everybody else, do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, for sure.

If you've listened to my show, you know I always got your husbands. And so I'm not trying to pick sides here, but it sounds like he's doing what he can to help somebody who's really struggling. Is that sound right? No, he's the best.

And I have all the problems. You don't have that. No, you don't. I promise you he has his. But there's a season when we're going to talk up part of our conversations are.

I need you to carry 80% because I can only carry 20 right now because I'm doing all this work on getting well and whole. I had these things happen to me when I was a kid in my body still trying to solve for them all. Now that I've got two of my own kids staring at me, I got to go head straight through that tension with the help of a licensed professional.

He sounds like a guy who's like, hell yeah, I'm in. I got it.

“It's then deciding I'm not going to judge how he's picking up his 80% right?”

I'm going to be grateful for it. I'm going to exhale. I'm going to go do the work I need to do. I'm going to I'm going to send you this this I'm going to send you two things. What I'm going to send you building an on anxious life.

It's the number one best thing book I wrote okay on this. It very thing okay. Okay. I want you to read it and I want him to read it too.

Because I want to always tell folks is if you if you take away all like the.

The diagnostic criteria that that nerds use and you just look at symptomology. About half of people in the country are wrestling with anxiety right now. And the other half of the country are married to that half right. And so this book will give him an insight into what's going on in your body and to your mind. And it will give you a both of y'all roadmap for how can we build a world where.

The alarms naturally tone way down. Okay. That's number one. Number two. I'm also going to send you.

You and your husband together app. It's a daily practice. It's a micro habit. It's a thing you can do that just inches you back towards each other. Okay.

Not any big grand talks not any big grand. It is a action towards. Okay. Yeah.

And my wife is the hardest person like she's skeptical of all these kind of she loves this app.

She loves loves loves loves. It's my number one selling point is dude. My wife even uses it. She doesn't listen to the show. None of that.

She loves this app. Okay. Okay. And if you get an activity and exercise to do towards your spouse towards your husband. And you feel uncomfortable.

You feel like I don't like this is going to be hard. That in and of itself is good.

“It's an important day to bring that to your counselor and say this thing told me to hug my husband for 60 seconds to go for a walk with him.”

And I immediately my body started shutting down. Let's talk. Let's talk about that. Right. It gives you a direction point for healing.

Maybe over in that area. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You're pretty awesome, Mary. You got a lot of work.

And thank you for letting me ask a bunch of deep probing questions. What you've told me about your husband is that he's a pretty respectable person. He's a pretty respectable guy. And he's doing very respectable things. He just doesn't have that sense of panic and urgency that racks that is constantly in your chest.

And so instead of blaming him for not having that, we could be really grateful that he does. Has it? And it could be a lighthouse for us as we say. I want to get that to hang on the line. I'm going to hook you up with some free resources.

And man, you call me anytime, Mary. I feel like I've been where you are. Mine is a postpart of minus giving birth to any of that kind of stuff. That's an extra complexity. And I just got it.

God, I tell you. There's healing on the other side. My son and I love to be out on the water fishing. It's one of my favorite ways to spend our time. Just the two of us casting our lines and spending time together.

And if you fish, you know this. Glare on the water can be brutal. You're trying to see where the fish are and by the end of the day, your eyes are cooked.

“That's why both me and my son and actually my wife and daughter, too.”

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That shadyraise.com use code Deloni. All right, Kelly, I got to say something happened. So this is last week, because we're recording this show. Last week, I'm in the middle of writing this book. It takes up all my life in my brain, power, whatever.

I headlined a comedy club in Huntsville, Alabama. And I took a couple of awesome comics with me, Mike James and Alex Voluto. They came with me and place was completely packed out.

But when I took the stage, I said, hey, you'll know me from this.

You'll know me from this show.

“But I recently found out that Kelly edits out a lot of my,”

a crafts or rude or, um,

Johnisms to make a show that, quote unquote, everyone can listen to.

And so I told him tonight is going to be all the parts that Kelly edits.

“Anyway, I tell you that's tell you, every time I mention the name Kelly,”

the place went bananas. And so you're kind of a hero out there. Despite how mean you are, despite how many people you keep cycling through and firing on our team, or forcing to leave.

Like they love you out there. Doing the Lord's work here. Well, you're a hero. You're like a famous aim as hero.

We have amazing listeners.

We do. We do. And my God, they love you.

“But just see, despite what you say, despite what you edit out,”

I didn't know you're editing all these things out. Well, you say a lot of things that we can't say on the air. Hey, love you guys so much. Thank you for being with us. Stay in school, don't you drugs?

And we'll see you out on the road.