Rev. Billy Cerveny: Satan’s Attacks, Transgenderism, Seeing the Supernatural &Hearing God’s Voice

That makes too, man. About a month ago, your God, fathered one of my children, you performed the wedding ceremony for the child.

“One of the great moments of my life, how did you get here? Like, I don't really know anybody if he's had more jobs, vision.”

I thought you were going to be a philosopher or a country music star.

Well, brother, if you had told me when we met and we first started hanging out that I'd end up doing what I'm doing now.

I'd have told you, you got hit in the head. Oh, I'm aware of that. But, you know, God is a sense of humor and a profound sense of irony. And, you know, over the years I'd spent science fires. It's true, though, it's true.

And it's a picture of his grace. I spent a lot of my years as a journalist and most of my professional life in the music business.

But I was living in Atlanta years ago when I just started playing music. You remember those years and I was living in this sort of converted greenhouse of 400 square foot apartment that the floor was still slanted to where they'd water the plants and the water would still run out. And I remember I had just gone into the music business. I'd given up a lot to do it and I was not in a good place. And really asking a lot of questions like, "God, what is this, who am I, what is it supposed to be?"

“And I remember that room became a monastery in my life. And God sort of grabbed me by the throat as I like to say.”

And just kind of peel back the curtain and just just began to reveal things to me that about who he was and who Jesus was that I'd heard my whole life.

But this has never made sense. I mean, I grew up in the church. My father was a priest. I was a bishop. He was a bishop of Florida.

And you know, it's like walking around your parents' house and you see fine pieces of furniture that you just walk by so many times. You don't notice them anymore. That's kind of what faith became to me. It's a young person. At least the language of faith. And words like grace and forgiveness. And I had just heard it so much. I just couldn't understand the implications of them. Until I went off to college. And you know, that's where we met. And those were the prodigal years, man, you know. And they're very fair. The prodigal was a went. We really went for it.

“But we really did. But God was faithful in all that time. But through the journalism and back up to Atlanta, I remember living in that apartment.”

And following on my knees and just saying, Lord, either you are who you say you are, or this is the biggest lie perpetrated on humanity. And I'm going to go with the you are who you say you are. And he began to teach me the truth of forgiveness and the truth of grace and what it meant to walk in Jesus and that would it meant to be saved and what it meant to have a relationship with him. And to have a soul that was worth far more than trying to satisfy it with success and music or, you know, success and whatever field it was. And I remember sitting there thinking to myself,

God, you're this good. Like, are you this good? Are you this good? And just feeling him in my heart, just nodding silently with me. And I knew in that moment, my life was different. I didn't know what was going to look like. And then when I moved to Nashville, I played music for a bunch of years after that. But during that time, the Lord just kept taking me deeper and deeper and I started getting involved using the music to go into ministry and I did a lot of work with a ministry called young life and I did a lot of, a lot of summers were, you know, talking to kids about the gospel and.

During that time, I met my wife out in Colorado and it was obviously a life-changing experience and she's wonderful and we began to ask asking a question like, hey, what is, what is God have for us? Where is he taking us and the concept, the idea of seminary for me. I mean, it's like I said, you knew me and, you know, that was completely not in the, and the cards. No, and in the context is even bigger and from an outsider's point of view, like you are the son of a great man of a well known man, a big figure.

And I was at his funeral, this winter and it was packed, packed, cathedrals, a big big, big, big, you look exactly like your dad, which is also kind of weird. I hear that. And now you are dressed exactly like your dad. So it's true.

Yeah, no, he was a great man, but that is part of it, you know, to grow up in that and just to watch my dad, you know, he was a bishop. So I'd watch my dad process wearing a miter and all that kind of, you know, but he was just my dad, you know.

“So people said, what was it like growing up under that? I don't know. I didn't know any different. And but I do know that, you know, spiritually, is I grew and, you know, my father, you know, like any son that would cobbler son as no shoes, right?”

Exactly. You think, you know, I'll figure it out on my own and you, you believe. And, but as I do what I do now and I look back, I'm humbled by the life he lived and the wisdom he had. I love my dad and, you know, as you mentioned he died, you know, a number of months ago and I have such tremendous respect for what he went through now that I'm in ministry. Yeah, look back and I'm like, how did you do it? How did you pull this off? How did you hold a family together? How did you, you know, sit in the, the chair that you sat in and lead a church in the way that you let a church with all the things pulling on you and, you know, when you have an adult perspective it brings a lot of you.

You know, retroactively assessed your childhood and said, oh, I wish I'd been more grateful. Well, you know, the thing about, you know, so my father was in a fiscal bishop and the fiscal church is very eclectic, right? And so my house was this revolving door of different people. So like one weekend we'd have, you know, a monk comes stay on our house. And the other week we'd have some high church bells and smells, Anglican, another week we'd have some, you know, charismatic, you know, praying and tongues on our floor.

And I remember, you know, sort of getting older and becoming a little self aware and ask you the question, like, what are we, what is this? You know, but it was this beautiful pictures and hindsight of the family of God and just how diverse it was and how many expressions that was that was an invaluable experience. And my dad, he loved people very well. And that way he led people very well.

And I, I, I, I tell you this, there's very few times in my life for many times in my life, I should say that I would be somewhere and I would introduce myself to someone.

It was not uncommon. Some, some of them, they go, you're the last name, sir, ready? And they pull me and say, you're dad, you know, telling me something that he did for me. And I'd be in some random state or my mother who was, you know, partner and ministry with him who's an exceptional, one of the rare people in the world. This is true. And, uh, but that really really impacted me, just thinking, one of the moments that we want to live lives that are impactful, not just things that we, we don't want to just accumulate.

We don't want to just, you know, try to attain whatever mental picture of success is, but what does it mean to leave an impact that where you leave a place or you leave a person or you that you say, hey, man, these people are impacted with a gospel and my dad did that.

For sure. How would you ever wake up and put on your collar and think, wow, I, I've like, I guess all middle-aged men realize I've become my dad, but I mean, you literally have.

There's a lot of times where I will, it's, again, it's surreal, you know, I think being a priest or doing this, I think he probably had the same experience is you're never, just never a moment where you're not just, I hope not, you struck by the irony of it. Or you, you know what I mean, you put your collar on and, and you think to yourself, like, Lord, you really are calling me to do this because I know me, you know, I know, I know the way I am. I know the internal realities for me, I know where I've been, but that's, you know, much like my dad.

“And I think that was very much in front of him, most of his life, too. He would always say, you know, what he did and where he was was just a, was a poster of God's grace. You know, he was a poster child for God's grace.”

And I never fully understood that until, as now that I'm as an adult as a minister, I'm thinking myself, absolutely, it's a picture of grace.

I want to inflate greatest blessings to really come to understand your own father. That's something that most men never get. It's true. It's, uh, that's something all men carry is, you know, it's been a lifetime wrestling is the relationships with their dads and who was this man who was the center of my world.

“Yeah, who is this reference point. And I think they, you know, we all of our lives, especially as little kids, you grow up looking at your dads is these superheroes and these guys that were kind of a red cape.”

And then there's this moment that you catch up with them and then you realize them and you, and then you see your parents, you know, our humanity. Yeah. And you look at your dad and you see that, oh, you're, you know, you're, you're this paradox of of greatness and brokenness.

This is where it was hard. And this is where God met me and this is where he just owned his humanity in open ways and directly to you.

Yeah. That's pretty wonderful. It is wonderful. And I think that's a really freeing experience for a son. So rare experience. Very rare experience. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. I think that, you know, it's far, you know, as you have children as well. And especially when you have a son, you know, looking at your son, it's like staring at a mirror. And then there's moments where they look at you and you realize, oh, they're looking at me asking me what it means to be a man. And you have those moments these sort of moments of existential horror where you're like, I'm not sure I know myself.

Yeah. Right. And so most of us do our best imitation of what we think manhood looks like.

And then we come to this place where, you know, I believe that, you know, to be a true blessing is, you know, we're our job as parents is not to create this picture where our children have to draw this perfect representation or duplicate what your version of manhood is.

“But the best thing that we can show them is, hey, this is what this is, this is what I, this is my version of manhood. And this is where I've screwed it up.”

And this is where I've erased it. And this is a picture of God's grace. My job as a dad is not to show my son what it means to be a perfect man. It is to be to show him what it means to be an imperfect man in relationship with a God of grace. And to walk in ways that are that are, I think, hopefully, no believe and honorably and that reflect the goodness of God. But also the reflect the humility of someone that knows what it means to need a Savior and to say, look, we're not perfect. And let me show you, like, this is where God has stepped in and moved in my life. This is where I've blown it. This is where I've done okay. But at the end of the day, you know, we all fall on the on the mercy of God.

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Oh, I don't think anything comes close.

We always talk about Rai, we talk about how difficult it is for men and women to understand each other because they think so differently and they express themselves so differently.

And it's the great joy and frustration of marriage trying to figure out what the other person is saying, but I don't think it compares to the father and son relationship. And that is hard and poignant, the communication there. I think it's, you know, as men, we have these sort of core longings that God hardwired into our hearts. You know, one of them is, you know, be part of something that's a story that's bigger than me here. To be in relationship with other men or to, you know, feel known or seen and love.

But one of them is, I think, foundationally is this idea that we were created to receive the blessing of a father. Yep. Period. You read the story of Jacob, like Jacob and he saw, or Jacob steals, steal the blessing. Yes, brother.

“And the whole picture of his life is him going on this journey trying to, to satisfy a heart that has been denied this blessing of his father that with, you know, who showed preference to his older brother.”

And he had stolen the blessing, which, you know, that was meant for his brother. And it ended up poisoning his life and he goes and he masses wealth and he gets wives and he comes back and there's that famous scene.

And he begins to wrestle the angel of the Lord and they go and, you know, Jacob pins him and the angel reaches out and dislocates his hip with just the touch of the thigh. And then that moment he realizes that I'm not, I'm not wrestling a person here. And, but he's also realized that this is, this is a picture of unrestrained power and rather than him giving up. He says, I'm not going to let you go until you bless me. I would rather a paraphrase, I would rather be torn limb from limb than to go from this moment without the blessing of a father and he, you know, that's where he changes his name to Israel.

“But I think it's a picture of our hearts that like we have, we, we need that in a way that is foundational, totally agree, you know.”

And the problem is the rub is the problem for my children and yours and all of our children is that, you know, I'm an imperfect man.

I can't, I can't provide that blessing in the full way, you know, I can't provide the fullness of it, but like I was saying earlier. That's part of the, part of the way we do bless them is that we, we let that we encounter them as adults and as they get older, we begin to show them the realities of our humanity and we point them towards Jesus and we do that together and that becomes a profound gift to our kids, is encounter the blessing of God the father. I know that it proves just part of a blessing, but it's, it's the part that people understand immediately.

It's a proof of your dad, like, good job, son. Oh, yeah, that's like everything. Hey, true. Well done, good and faithful servant. Amen. Amen. So, speaking of wrestling, there's a phrase that you hear a lot, you never used to hear until about maybe six or seven years ago and now it's on the lips of every podcast, and that's the spiritual war. You know, the famous Ephesians quote, "We fight against none, you know, flesh blood, but against principalities and you're the preacher." You know the quote. Yeah.

“What is that? And what are its manifestations? The spiritual war.”

Yeah. That's a small question. I like to start narrow. Yeah, thanks, yeah. You know, we live, you know, on this side of a curtain, you know, we live in this temporal world, you and me and in the rooms we're in,

but, you know, we all think of ourselves as spiritual beings that's a real common thing that people say, but, you know, we were fashioned by God as spiritual beings to be in relationship with him. And there really is this curtain that behind which there is an entire unseen realm that is God and the host of angels and all that. And the much like here, it's a world that is in rebellion as well.

And, you know, the irony is that the world we experienced now was never meant to be separated from that.

When God created all things, He created heaven and earth overlapped. He wanted to walk with Adam during the cool of the day. He wanted to take man and, you know, as his image bearers were to be in relationship with God in a very tangible way. But because of the way that again, because of sin and the brokenness of the world, there's this separation that occurred. But I think now there really is a spiritual battle, as you quote it, that you said, you said, behind the veil, behind the curtain, the things we can see, the unseen realm is God and angels.

But it's not a civil war. I mean, there's turmoil there. It's war, right?

“It is, that's what the way Scripture describes it. And so who is the war between? I think it's between God and, you know, the Father's Son on the Holy Spirit and the Creator God.”

I think it's just in the way that God spoke all things into this world and to being, he also created a heavenly host. And you read that story in the book of Genesis with the serpent in the garden, right?

You know, Genesis was where heaven and earth overlaps and man walked with God as we said his second ago.

But you see this, you see the beginning of a divine rebellion there. You see this sort of mysterious serpent figure, which is, you know, we later learned is this, this Satan figure. And he rebels against God because he is, he's, he's, he's pridefully want to be equal with God. And if he's going to attack God, if he wants to unravel God, what's, what's the first thing he's going to do? He's going to attack his plan, but he's going to attack his image bears. Right? And that plan that you get people and that plan that you see that he hatched in Genesis 3 is still a plan that's happening now.

There's a, you know, we, our war is not against flesh and blood, but it's against these principalities and these powers and these things that come and they, they weigh heavy on us, you know, he's a deceiver and, and Satan, Satan, and his, and his henchmen, his demons and the demonic forces. And it's, it's very real.

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So we're the same age, of course, we're in the same college class. I didn't grow up in a world where that was considered real at all. And most people, I mean, you probably did because you were a son of a bishop, but I'm not a son of a bishop, and I just never even imagined any of that was real. I thought God was real, but I didn't think there were actually evil forces floating around unseen, impelling people toward self-destruction. I just didn't believe that. Now it's like the most obvious thing ever.

“So obvious to you, I think it's obvious to like everyone I talked to, but self-selected group, of course, but sure.”

I mean, what is the old quote, the greatest trick the devil played is to convince humanity that he doesn't exist? Yes. And I think that's part of, especially in America, you know, we don't live in a very, you know, we live in such a binary, you know, culture, we don't, we don't think in terms of that, generally speaking, we do more recently.

But materialist culture. Yeah, materialist culture, well said. And but how does that play out? You know, what are the manifestations of it?

I mean, you can see it on a large scale, you see it in the destruction of marriages, you see it in the, you know, pornography, you see it in, you know, addictions, you see the things like that. I find that I see those kind of attacks happen in the areas most egregiously, and those areas that God values most. So you want to know what God loves the most, watch what Satan attacks the most aggressively. And what does God love the most? You look at the creation story and all those things that God said in motion in the beginning, marriage and ideas of masculinity and gender and, you know, the role of humanity in the world, us being, you know,

God's image bearers to, to create a kingdom that reflected his glory. Wait, I'm going to ask you to pause. So let's just, let's just go kind of through the list, friends of course. So you said marriage number one. I mean, not these aren't in certain order, but I'm just kind of riffing about marriage. Yeah, the ones that come to mind. Yeah, marriage. And then that's explained as part of God's creation in genocide. Yeah, it's part of his creation mandate, you know, be fruitful and multiply. He created, you know, when you read the story of God creating man, he creates Adam out of the earth and, you know, it's, and he, you know, he empowers him and he brings all the animals in front of him.

And, you know, after each creation day, you hear God says, what he says, it is good. It is good. Yeah, it is good.

“And the only thing that you read about in the creation story that God says wasn't good was man's aloneness.”

He says, it's not good that man be, be alone. And so what does he do, you know, he brings all these animals and there's, there was not a helper that was suitable for him to know. So he, the dogs came close, I think. I don't know, maybe close. If he puts him to sleep and he pulls the rib and he makes, and he makes woman, he makes Eve. And there's the, you know, he's here. This is the first song ever ever written in creation. He's time to read the Old Testament and you see, you read the text and all this and you see everything's indented.

You know, it's something that, you know, was honored cross culture Christian or not people, you know, it's something that's played out, but it's, it's something that's been written in the Bible. I was in a human dimension. It was God's idea. And it's something that, you know, honored cross culture Christian or not people, you know, it's something that's played out, but it's, it's the, it's the seed from which, you know, so much goodness flows children and family and, you know, you know, relationship into the world where you love others and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was God's idea. He loves the idea. He loves it so much that, you know, the marriage image is used throughout Scripture, even though the, the second, you know, when the new heavens and the earth come together and we, we finally, you know, the God rolls up the script and, you know, the end is consummated. He describes it as a wedding banquet, you know, and it's a beautiful picture.

that's something God values would be one of the vast understatements of the decade and that is why I think Satan attacks it so viciously. So you see it constantly because you're obviously a priest you give sermons.

“Do the Eucharist, but you also are a pastor to your congregants people in your church. Yeah, and you talk to them a lot. So in general terms, how is marriage under assault?”

I think marriage is marriage is, well, to begin with marriage is hard because you have two fallen people that come together and you know, make all kinds of demands on each other, but I think it's under assault and the idea that just the idea of marriage is under assault. I mean, just the notion that if you look at Europe or I don't even know what the percentages are, but people aren't even getting married over there. Yeah, the divorce rates are off the chain, you know, and then just the idea of what marriage is, I don't think people see it in light of the larger story that we were just discussing, but that's sort of on a macro level, but

but when you talk to people, you talk to people, you desperately want their marriages to work to be happy to continue, but they're struggling with it. What are the things that you hear? Where are the moments where you feel like this is a spiritual attack on husband and wife?

“Yeah, I think spiritual attack, it takes, you know, I would say this is, you know, Satan attacks us in all sorts of ways, but the most nefarious ways is when he, he seeks to deceive us, right?”

Most of the various ways that he whispers in our ear is most of the time he whispers in our own voice, right? And he whispers to us and we, it's the self-talk that we engage in, and you know, again, I don't understand the mystery of how this function of works. But it, and it, it stokes the, the, the embers of selfishness of our pride, you know, is, you know, is still a quote, does Tim Keller so famously said it, you know, if you want to know what your biggest problem in your marriages is selfishness, and it's always going to be that, and it's this journey of two self-oriented people, right?

And learning what it means to die to self, and what spiritual attack looks like in that it's, it's through selfishness, and it's through our own pride, and that can bubble up in a lot of ways, it can bubble up through adultery, or it can bubble up through people having, you know, secret lives, or pornography addictions, or just people lose inside of each other, you know, and it's so easy, I mean, you know, you have kids, you've lived a life, you know, how, how difficult it is, and marriage to stay connected, and how people can, you can stop talking, or people, and that's part of the, just part of the discipline and part of it.

How people do it, I mean, people with kids at home, once, once kids leave, you're like, I don't know how we manage to stay married, no matter how much you love the person, you don't have time to talk.

Yeah, and it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a challenge, man, it is a discipline, one of the more common things when people come in, I do a lot of marriage counseling. People will come in and, you know, and, you know, inevitably, one of the things they'll say is, you know, we just have a hard marriage, and I'll sit and I'll listen, and I'll say, did you just got a marriage, like, marriage is hard. Yeah, again, it's, it's two fallen people learning to come together and find out, you know, what does it mean to love you and to pursue you and to lay down my life for you and love, love you more than I love myself.

It's said in Ephesians five, you know, what does it mean for, you know, husbands love your wives like Christ love the church.

“Well, how did Christ love the church? It wasn't, you know, clinging to his, you know, his authority and, you know, hammering hammering his points home, though, you know, there were moments, right?”

But it was really laying his life down and it's a great picture that we think of like, what does love and marriage? What's a lot of things, but one thing is not, it's not fair.

All right, if you want fairness, go get a business partner.

But if you want to love someone and marriage, the question is, hey, how do I, when I feel wrong or I feel hurt or I feel in a place where I feel unseen, like what the world would tell me is, I have every right to not love you anymore until I get what's mine. But what the Christian would call the marriage, especially for husbands is no.

And that's, that's the call and it's a, it's a call that it's a, again, to lay your life down and it's, it's ironic talking about. Marriage and speaking about it in an authoritative way, because it's topics like marriage or topics like prayer.

They're topics that you riff on, but you never really feel like you have a handle on it.

“Right, right, let me tell you what my wisdom on marriage, but it's, because I'm like, you know, you're always daily because, and that's how you, I think you keep a humble posture, but.”

I've never had any problem with humility having three daughters, but it's just kind of as baked in, you know. It's true, but you know, but you never feel like you have, you can wrap your arms around it fully and because it is a mystery and, and it constantly requires a humility, which, you know, you know, you know, me a lot a lot of years and that's not something I come by naturally and most people don't, but. But it's also God's, I would say. The profound gift of marriage is it is the crucible with which you, God transforms your lives if you let it.

You know, and ironically, it is those, those moments of, of brokenness and restoration, where those transformations come from a, happened to happen the most. Of course, it's the crappy things you're grateful for, and it's those places to that, you know, I've seen marriages. I've seen marriages shattered by adultery that have because of the willingness and humility of the two people to invite God in the middle of it and to listen and to walk. I have seen those people emerge with marriages that they'd only dream they could have actually 100%.

Like full blown cheating. Yeah. No question.

“And they would boast sincerely say under Polygraph, I'm happy with my marriage and I've ever been. No question. Really?”

Yeah. God works all things together for the good of those who love them. And if you let them, if you're willing to do it, I don't, don't, don't let me sugarcoat it.

It's a brutal, and I would never suggest that as a journey. No one wants to go there. No one wants to go there.

But for those that I've seen marriages heal in ways that you couldn't imagine for such, such egregious pains and so many Greece and I've seen marriages disintegrate for far less because people aren't willing to walk in and with humility and look at themselves and they're just too busy pointing at the other person. Everybody knows that bleach is powerful and you know that by the smell and the warnings and the gloves and it makes sense if something can clean a surface may not want to be in the room while it's being cleaned.

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Boy, that is just the story of all of our relationships with other people. It's like it's always someone else's fault. That's like the default setting and most instantly in me.

Yeah, like I'm just, you know, all that, you know, I can't believe they did that. It's just the idolatry of our hearts. And then part of that idolatry is my own self image. And the thing about idols is that you can never see your idols until they're smashed. There's no better place to smash the idolatry of self than in a marriage. Because, you know, where you're like, well, I think, you know, no. I mean, your wife knows your wife is the most dangerous person in your world. That's for sure. Because she knows you. And you're the most dangerous person in her world. Because you know her, you know her wounded place. As you know where she's strong, you know where she's weak.

You know, it might hurt my feelings. And I mean, we're really close friends. So it might, you know, it would kind of run.

“I think it wouldn't you pretty. But if my wife said the same thing.”

I would do it on with you. I would be, I wouldn't, you know, it would be better. Yeah, get out of bed, right? You know, you become it anyway. You know, so, um, but it just shows the power you have over. No, she's got a loaded gun. But you also such a tremendous power to bless one another.

And the raise one other way, I was like, you see the glory self and the other. Like, what does it mean to see who God is trying to call forward and to draw them forth?

And that's hard, man. Especially hard in conflict where you're sitting there and you're, you're at odds and you, you know, you're angry or something like that. And of course, when you're angry, you feel justified or otherwise you wouldn't feel angry, right? That's the, that's kind of the foundation of anger is our self justification. But the discipline in the mixed spiritual maturity and that is how do I still reach in there and see that a glory self of that person and and and draw them forward and to see them as a child of God is someone that I actually love as someone as precious and it's very hard to remember how to picture my wife.

I'll picture my wife of her she five three years old, cute kid, beautiful, and it's stuck in my Bible and Psalm 139, which is the song about, you know, you're fearfully and wonderfully made.

“But I will have you knit you together and your mother's womb and as you talked about the glory of creation and I do that on purpose because that's what I need to remember and the marriage.”

It's the thing that at any moment because I love her deeply and I want to love her and I want to and it's really important in order to to that well.

You need to consistently see the value and the glory of this person that you're inextricably tied to at this point. I mentioned pornography as a threat to marriage. It's like one of those things I think we're just like maybe ten years to old to really under or speak for myself to really understand the magnitude of it. How often does pornography arise in marriage counseling as a huge problem. Oh, man. I think it's hard to overstate how pervasive it is now. If I meet with a man like take marriage counseling out of it, just just men and general, I assume that's in the mix until proven otherwise.

Actually, yeah, I'm that's not an indictment, but I just it's so pervasive. I'm safer to assume that's the case that that's somehow part of the narrative than. Then it's not because it's you know, when we walk around with these little, you know, apple porn boxes, the people out of their hands, you know, and they and you know, can you imagine being a teenager. Now, a teenage boy growing up where, you know, the the greatest, you know, temptation in your life is literally free button clicks away at any moment.

And what that's doing to the hearts and minds of young men and what is doing to their concept of marriage and what that's doing to their concept of sexuality, you know, Gen X, you know, we're something like you and I came along. You want to do somebody get to work for it, you know, that's not like that. It is literally force fed to these young men. But you're only telling one half the story. The other half is Tim Cook's a billionaire. So there has been a big upside to those. Yeah, if you're Tim Cook. No, it's crazy. I've had a revolution.

“I pray it's coming, but I don't think that will ever happen apart from revival. I think that's right because it's got it and it's it's it's a it's again, not the belabor of the point, but I think”

What that does, I think we going back to what is spiritual warfare, you know, what is how does it play out on practical levels. I think that's a profound evil is trying to You know, anything, you know, the earlier you can damage someone sexually, just think about what that does. So real. It's so real. Totally. Just the way that plays out. You get stuck in patterns that are men do anyway. I don't know. In human sexuality, it's malleable. It's what it's a, yeah, it's not a sign to birth. Yeah, well, it is and it isn't. And the sense that it is is that that what I mean is our sex, you know, our sex, while he as we live and out.

You know, our sex is a sign of birth, our genders a sign of birth, and that's obviously a God breathed, you know, holy call. And, you know, when we talk about things like pornography and the abuse is a pornography and things like that,

But, you know, you got to flip it over and first see like, you know, the glory of what God designed when he designed human sexuality when he called people

and created man and woman to be sexual beings together, right? It's a, it's a glorious, the beautiful thing. It's a, it's this, in fact, you know, people often criticize Christians and saying, you know, you have such a low view of sexuality. I'm like, you, you, you've got to be kidding. We have it. We have such a higher view of sexuality than the world. Like, this is, it's, it's, it's a fire that, but it just needs to be kept into the fire pray. It's not a consumer product. It's not a consumer product. It's not a, it's not an adult playground that we just go and make it into cook rich, but it has profound spiritual impacts for us.

If we cut against the grain of how God designed us for that. So when we talk about what you said, you know, what we're, you're asking about, like, how does that. It's spiritual warfare play out in those, those, these contests, or in our world, in our life, from practical boots on the ground level. That's a, that's an imperfect example. It's, it's, it's, it's the assault on what God values the, you know, the marriage and the, and human sexuality, because it, it knows it. A, if you can twist that, it will, it will turn us fully inward.

It turns us, we become full blown consumers. We become a slave to appetites and we become,

“and I think the, again, going back to, the, the beautiful thing that you see is that when the Lord heals in that place, you see so much, you see just the power of redemption and watching men and women be restored and,”

you know, feel like they're washed clean that they're not shameful or objects of shame, and it's a beautiful thing that God has blessed me to be a part of as I've walked through. So what is it? Um, so pornography was sold internet pornography, and I kind of remember this. I was married by the time the internet arrived, but I remember the world, but your old, but I, I feel fairly young. Yeah. Spray. I think it's my consumption of Alp nicotine products product, blah. Um, no, we are old.

And, but there is some advantage in that, and that you sort of remember how things were sold when they first arrived in market.

And I remember people saying, well, this is going to be the end of rape and sexual assault, because there's a healthy outlet for sexuality in the, in the, the form of pornography. People said that. I mean, I remember when they said that.

“That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I don't, I don't remember that, but I just, but that is,”

Well, you know, it would make us free and inform us when actually people like don't even read anymore, and like we're surveilled constantly. Let's, we're going to put this far out by, by porn gasoline. No, I totally agree. For the last 50 years or so, oil has been priced pretty much exclusively in US dollars.

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So you're a married man who's got a porn habit. Why is that bad? Like in practical terms, how does that divide you from your wife and family? Oh, we expand the next three hours talking to this. I mean, simple terms. Simple terms. One, it twists your view of sexuality and it twists your view of your spouse. And what I mean by that is, you know, people say, oh, see objectification when people say that all day.

But it truly does do that. And you know, women, you might not know this. Women's sexuality is very different than a man's. Yeah, it's right. And, you know, there's get drunken horny in the hookup of random people. They're not big dumb animals, right? There they're there. And it doesn't mean it's less important for them. I agree. And God fashioned it.

That's another cliche that people say, you know, sex just means more for man than it does for him.

Men just go about it differently. And for a man to understand the value of it for a woman or requires us to slow down. And to have that conversation understand it and to listen in a way that we aren't naturally wired to do or we don't feel like we can do in our right. Yes, you hear that. So I agree that more than almost anything I've ever heard requires us to slow down.

That's the number one. Absolutely.

And my father always said that slow down.

Your dad was a wise man. But on that topic, he was wise. Yeah. I am. So.

But yeah. So the first thing that it does is it twists that. It you begin it presents this this women as these caricatures of male sexuality. And I think that's not fair.

“And I think it does a tremendous amount of of damage.”

That's one. Two. And I'm again. This is not a exhaustive list. But two, it's it pushes men into isolation.

And you know, porn pornography addictions were hidden sexuality. These are things that men, you know, they don't do out in the open. They, they, they, you know, they do in, in secret. They do it in. And they do it in private.

And they don't tell anybody about it. All right. And the number one tool that Satan will do use is isolation. Yes. He will push men into the shadows.

Because what happens here. That's where shame can grow. Yes. Unfettered. And that's where, you know, people feel broken.

More, you know, more perverse.

“And where they become more broken and become more perverse.”

Which makes you feel more. And it's this vicious feedback loop that it begins to occur.

So men, you know, they think they're, you know, it always, you know, it's interesting that always starts with all I can handle this.

And it becomes a sort of, you know, I'll smoke with cigarette a day. But the, you know, pornographic version of it. But before they know it, it becomes a consuming, a consuming thing in their lives. And so it, that's, it drives them into the shadows, which creates isolation, which creates shame, which creates you know, a, you know, a, you know, a false sense of self as you walk into marriage.

And what is marriage? Marriage is, as it was designed, you read, you know, Genesis chapter two. What does it say? He made right after the passage of, you know, bone on my bone, flesh of my flesh. It says they were naked and unashamed.

They stood before each other. That's about sex. But that's also about a spiritual heart posture that men and women have in front of each other that is all that I am. All that I, you know, seen and unseen. I am, I am here before you.

That's right. And pornography goes to war with that and pushes men into the shadows. And women, too, by the way, it says, this is not, I mean, it is certainly more dominated by men. But what we've seen over the years is that this is something that women continue with as well. Um, easier for me to talk about because I'm a man and, you know, probably holds more credence, but it's, uh, but it's very real.

So, you know, creates caricatures of what sexuality is, creates caricatures of women. It scares up your sex life, doesn't it? Yes. And then the other thing is, is what we said again, you know, our human sexuality, our, you know, our sex drives. They're malleable, right?

And you feed that into those sort of, those, you know, proversions or those, you marinate in that kind of stuff. It will take you places you don't want to go. My father when I was little said to, this is so over the top, but I was going to say it was my favorite line ever.

I never say it because it's so over the top, but I'm not for driving the car with him.

When you were like, eight in ten or something and something on pornography came up and goes, yeah, it's a really bad idea. It makes you perverse. And he said your sexuality is like a grain of, of wood. So if you take your fingernail and run it along a kitchen, it wouldn't fit that table. It gets deeper with every pass.

And he said, if you get into that, my father's very pro sex, like, very pro sex. But he goes, it's a dark road. You keep getting, it gets weirder and weirder and weirder. And the next thing you know, you can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume. That's what it is.

I have no idea what that means. But it stayed with me for 45 years, like a chicken costume. You're dead at a chicken costume? I don't know. No, he did not have a chicken costume.

He was very proud of not having a chicken costume. I understand. That's hilarious.

“I think he may have phrased it that way.”

It was just so evocative that it, like, now I wish my brother was here. He would confirm this. Like, I never stopped thinking about it. I knew your dad. I believe that.

A hundred percent. I know your dad was awesome. Your dad was awesome. You can't get it up unless you wear your chicken costume. Anyway.

So, but that's the kind of what you're talking about. I do. I think it takes you, again, it takes you places. It's the law of diminishing returns.

So, you know, what it's, it's like, okay, you need a, this amount of heroin to begin with.

“And before you know, that's right quadruple dedos.”

And it's, it's all about the dopamine hit. You know, you, it's the same, there's sexuality is no different. That it, when it's taken out of context, when it's taken into those places, when it's used in a way that God did not intend it. Like, God, God's design for it is not to be predation to keep you from having a good

time. Like, of course. Right. I mean, and it's the idea of, like, how can this flourish and become something that doesn't,

life producing and literally, but also that breeds intimacy between a man and a woman.

The breeds connection between a man and a woman. The breeds is sense of just wonder and, and awe and just beauty. Right. And that was his design for it. And when you step out of that boat, man, like, it does everything I just described.

It does the opposite of that. You know, if there's anything I could tell young people, it's, it's, it's protect that with all that you are because the world is lying to you. It's lying to you about about, you know, the frivolous, oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big deal.

And it's profound spiritual implications for you. It has, it has, it can take you places that one day you wake up and you say, I don't want to be here and I don't know how to get back. Right. There is, the good news.

I'll say this if you have, they have been there and I've seen this over and over again. You know, oh, you know, it's, I'm damaged. Goods now. No, you're not. Like, this is, God uses the broken things of this world. And he is, I mean, I, the places I've been, the places you've been, the things we've done in our lives. Like, we're, the God, God is all about the prodigals.

And there's no, there's no one that is beyond redemption and healing. And God loves to restore that because God loves that. Right. And ain't fun. Right. It's not a place you want to go.

“But if that's where you are and that's what you've done, it's okay.”

Because God agrees that the reason, you know, Jesus doesn't see that. And that's why Jesus steps back from the table. Actually, that's the reason Jesus came because we misuse sexuality. Because we, you know, we are, we are bad in our own shame because we, we make bad decisions. Because we're so committed to our own self-destructure.

That's why he calls himself destructions. That's why he calls himself a savior and not a, you know, a self-help guru. Because, because I need a savior. I need someone to reach out and pull me up and save me from me. Yeah, right. It's not just, yes, there's a, on a theological level. He saves me from sin. And he washes me clean and my, you know, my standing before God and all of the things which is deep and profound and eternal. And, you know, worthy of reflection for, you know, thousands of years.

But at the, when you boil it down, you really came to save me from me. You know, you know, from my own devices and where I would go. I mean, you think of the number of things that God has saved you from that you're not aware of. All right, that way, he's the one list of things I am aware of. Right, right. But so think about how dramatic the thing, how dramatic the list is that he saved you from the,

you didn't even get to see, all right. And it's, and, you know, even the way he's restrained your own appetites in those places that you didn't even know, you know. And so, yeah, going back to your question, I do think pornography's evil and it's done so much damage.

“And, you know, as you said, I think there's going to be a, well, I know the word you use like a revolution against it.”

But I don't think that's ever going to happen until we have an actual revival again, which, man, do we need that? But we have to, we've lost the plot. And you lose the plot and sexuality. You're talking about that. You lose the plot of the, the gospel story, the creation story view. And your story just kind of becomes about your narrative of my sex life.

Then, you know, it becomes a very dangerous thing. But when you read it in light of like what we're talking about, you took, you know, we've just kind of touched on it. You read the Genesis story and God's creative intention for that stuff. All of a sudden, you become invited into, into this larger epic tale that becomes about something so much more. And what you're, again, your soul is so much more of men's value than you ever imagined it was.

And it's, to be, to be a part of something that's so much more incredible than anything that you could ever cobble together on your own.

Why wouldn't you want that, right? You, you're the person who put the, the gender stuff in context for me. When this first happened, people questioning whether gender is real, you know, sex distinctions are real. Yeah, it's been going on for 70 years, of course. It's the core premise of a second-way feminism that really, there's no difference between the sex.

This strike you, but even in every context that, you know, be a secular or in church context when people argue, you know, there are no gender distinctions. You know, you can make theological arguments, you know, biblical arguments, whatever. But just simply saying that like, hey, before 70 years ago, literally no one agreed with us. Like, you can't really find a place in it because it worked.

“So in all human history, I'm not going to even argue, I'm right or wrong, but doesn't that make you want to pump the brakes a little bit?”

No, because we have atomic weapons now. And I'm, this, let me just indulge my theory, which I can't control myself from talking about run, baby. I've heard it before, but I just think, I think nuclear weapons, which I don't think were created by people, sorry. I don't care how many movies they make about it. Don't believe that.

You can see up in armor? Yeah, okay. Wouldn't watch that crap.

Wouldn't let that into my head for one second.

But anyway, sorry, now I'm getting really crazy, but it's all true, what I'm saying is true. I think once man possessed the power or believed he possessed the power to destroy everything that's alive, I think that he rejected God. Like, that is kind of like, that's rejection. God, and like everything changed after that.

People became convinced they were God's. And that's when the true crazyness started. It's not the '60s, the '60s, or the, you know, Obamig years, or whatever you want. Era, it's like post-nuclear weapons. That's what I believe.

So anyway, but the gender thing kind of exploded maybe 10 years ago with this, like, really, we're going to assign the child a gender, let him choose the gender, whatever. And I was confused, but I thought it was so crazy that I just didn't take it seriously at all.

“And you're the one who made me take it seriously and you said, I'll never forget it.”

You said this is a direct attack on God's design as described in Genesis. So can you flesh it out a little bit? This is not like an accident.

Like this was always going to happen, is basically what you said.

Yeah, well, when you read the Genesis narrative, right? You know, again, God, you know, in the beginning God creates the heaven of the earth. And you have this picture of this sort of chaos that happens. And it's God's spirit hovers over the water. You know, the Hebrew, it's the hovering is almost like a mother bird's wings hovering over the chaos.

And he begins to speak things into order. You know, you got day one and he creates light. He's, you know, as it grows, he separates the land from the, from the waters and he throws the stars in the sky. He shoots this fish and the sea and the animals come. And then each time you see each created order or each created day, what you're watching, it grows in glory.

It grows in complexity, it grows in glory. And each time God is it's good, it's good. And then you get to day six where God creates humanity. And it's this sort of crowning explosion of creation. The largest expression of his glory actually the crown jewel of creation was the last thing which was created.

And that was those were women. That is the final most glorious creation. And it's certainly how I feel. Yeah. And that's the way the story needs to be read.

All right.

So if people just saw, notice, you know, women always, it's, and I have, I have sympathy for it.

For there's much the church needs to apologize for it for the ways that they've hurt women over in the past. But I can tell you from, as a, as a Bible nerd, I can tell you that that is the fault of man and not of God. Because the, the biblical story elevates women in a way that, that, that the world never would, that they would. Anyway, it's a back to our point. So in this crown jewel of creation with humanity, he could have expressed it in any way.

And he, any, any created man, he created man and he created woman. You know, they are, they, he created masculinity and he created femininity. This is not a human construct. It is not a social construct. Of course, there are things that, that, you know, cultures and, you know, cultural moments can shape the way those are expressed.

But generally speaking, masculinity is, we understand, it's, it's not just, oh, you're a dude. It's a holy calling. It's a holy calling. And as God says, you are his image bearer in this world. And women are his image bearers that come together to create this fuller image of what God is to be expressed and rolled out into the world.

As their image are, we, it would be who we must understand.

“What is this thing called masculinity that I've been saddled with?”

Or I've been, I have been called to. What is femininity that I have been called to? And is, is men, I think, well, to your point, I think that's a, that you cannot, there's many people that make theological arguments against what I just said.

You just can't read the, the scripture in any, just intellectually honest way and just not see that that's just the way it is.

“And also experientially. Well, I know it's true experientially because God also doles out punishments for eating the fruit.”

And he says to Adam, you're going to live by the sweat of your brow. It's going to be hard for you to make living, go to work. Go in and test little futility. Yeah. And he says to eat two things. One child birth is going to be hard for you.

And two, your desire is going to be for your husband. And he's going to rule over you. And those are the things that men and women resent. I've noticed, you know, men need to work. They drive satisfaction and self respect for work, but they also hate to work because it's hard.

Women, of course, most women love children, but they fear child birth and that is suffering. And there is a sense in which women resent men hate work.

And women might resent that stuff and we can, we can do that.

But when we lose the plot, but when we step back into the story. All right. When we encounter God in a real way through the gate of Jesus, we go through and begin to see the redemptive story. But when we see the creation story and the creation purpose, like we just described and you realize, wait, this is a holy calling.

I'm actually what was going to God called Adam. Work didn't happen after the fall. God's purpose was work for Adam. He said, I want you, again, where we said it again, God created Eden, which was this holy place.

But the rest of the world wasn't like Eden. And he says to Adam, I want you to exercise dominion. What he's saying is not just I'm putting you in charge.

What he was saying is I'm giving you a job.

And I want you to take what is in Eden. And I want you to take it all around the rest of the world. I want you to turn the world into into this. I want you to drag the realities of this out and create. You ruthlessly human in relationship with God.

You create cities in art and cuisine. And all these things become build out the kingdom of God. And when you see that, when Jesus came talking about the kingdom of God, it wasn't plan B. He's grabbing plan A and just saying that we're reinstated. It's all about that.

And so when you see in Revelation chapter 21, which is the end of the story, where it says, behold, I see the new heavens and the earth are coming down. And behold, I'm making all things new. And it says glorious picture of the consummation of all things. That holy city that's coming down.

That was the city that Adam was supposed to have built. And all of a sudden, we're Adam failed. Jesus is the second. He succeeded and he came and made this happen. Why does that matter?

“How does that's going to, to our this question about man being working?”

You know, and all the sense of futility. Not only is masculinity a holy calling, but the work that we're with that we're to put our hands to. When we have now of a gospel lens, when Jesus says that the kingdom of God is the hand, we get to be participants now in the original mandate. To how do we bring and build the kingdom of God here and now?

And all of a sudden, animates, I don't care if you're a plumber or you're a lawyer or a, you know, baker or candlestick maker, that all of a sudden we're now participants in something that God is doing, that we get to bring the realities to bear in our world. And that that sense of futility, I think when we can maintain that perspective, I don't think our sense of futility can stand.

Or it goes to war with our sense of futility. Does that make sense? It does make sense. Can I add one liner note, please? Eden was what physically it was a land of rivers and trees?

Great question. I'm a Genesis nerd, so I'm going to go here. Rivers and trees though, correct? Rivers and trees. Okay, so Eden was also, I believe it says in Ezekiel,

a describes it as Anna Mountain, which we just kind of a lost fact. So rivers, trees and mountains and a place where God had the divine and the human, and the human over Latin and well together. So maybe there's a reason that when people are in office buildings, they feel differently from the way they feel when they're next to rivers,

hanging out in the trees. Yeah. And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and trees is on the wrong side. The Lorax might have a point. I really believe that, I believe that.

“I believe that trees are really important.”

They're all over the Bible. I think Cedar has a special place, but you look at it. It's true, but you, but when you read again, going back to the creation story, each creation's day after God made the trees, and what do you say? He says it's good.

And not just for its utility, not to, but it's also,

and we're not just for its utility. Not just for its utility. It's for, and so when Adam was to exercise dominion, it wasn't like, what are you going to kill and cut down? It was how are you going to nurture?

Is that how are you going to take with this and bring it everywhere?

“When that's why when people get in that kind of relationship with nature,”

they feel a deep satisfaction and a peace. Oh man. Nearly from God. 100%. So when you deny people that, that is when you deny them beauty,

when you destroy beauty, God's created beauty. That is not good. I just wish on this the other night, but the idea of redemption, and the idea of re-creation. When you, Genesis, think it's 317 where it says,

talking about, you know, thorns and this holes, and we'll push back.

One of the lines is it says, "Cursed is the ground because of you."

That's God's being it. And what he's saying there is, because of your sin, you Adam who I've put, and charged with the created order is my vice-regent. Because of your sin, now it is paid for it,

and it is corrupted the creation. So the earth quakes and the, the fallenness of this world is a product of the fallenness of man. So when you read in Romans 8, it talks about the creation groans,

and the way the creation groans, because you know, it's scripture tends to personify, you know, the birds and the mountains and all that. And this is the creation groans. Right, yeah, of course.

It's all my team. You know, all the creation sings of God's glory. But the creation groans, but in the same way it is,

the redemption of creation is going to be tied

to the redemption of man, and the redemption of humanity. So as we are, have been recreated and are living out that recreation, and one day will stand in the full realities

of our recreation so will the world. It is tied to, when Jesus came to redeem all things, he wasn't just talking about people, all things. The seeders, as you just said, the trees and the rivers, and I can't wait for that day.

I agree with that.

“But on the way to that day, we, I think I know,”

because I experienced this this morning, so watch the sun come up. You can get flashes of it. That's right, all around us. And it's, and we can participate in that.

That's, again, behold, the kingdom of God is his hand. What is, what is Jesus doing in those moments in the New Testament, when he, we talked about this last night, when Jesus is, every time he sees Jesus doing a miracle, like what is Jesus doing in that moment?

Is he just doing a trick? Is he trying to sort of flex his, like, God muscle and show him, like, this is what I'm capable of. Is this a proof? I mean, there's some of that where he's, like,

pulling back the curtain and revealing his divinity and who he is and where people sit back and he stills the wind in the waves and people aren't just, it's quit asking, like, who are you? They're now asking, like, what are you?

Yeah, right. But when Jesus, one of the things that he's doing in those moments

“where he is, you know, he heals the, you know,”

the hemorrhaging woman or he, raises jyruses daughter from the dead. He calls Lazarus out of the tomb. What he's doing is he's reaching forward and he's grabbing the realities of the new heavens and the newer

earth that we will one day live in the full experience and he's planting them in the moment. And he's giving people a foretaste of, like, this is what the kingdom of God is. This is what the kingdom, so, you know,

the journey of redemption and recreation for is not about how do we get man out of earth and the heaven, the journey, the ultimate consummation is how do we get heaven and earth back together? And those miracles that we begin to see

as the miracles we were just talking about are Jesus doing that very thing and to your point where you say, I stand out there and I see pops of this. We now get to participate in that.

So we get to bring the realities of the new heavens and the new earth. How does that look? Well, here's the new one. When we bring, when we bring comfort to someone who is lost in grief.

When I sit with a couple who is shattered by adultery or their marriages and or someone is on their deathbed. And they are scared and they feel alone and you sit and you pray with them and you're bringing those realities to bear

when you feed the hungry. When you love the very difficult to love. You know, that's our call. When you plan a garden, right? I know these are kind of, oh, come on.

No, really. When you plan a garden, like, what are you doing? That's an ancient call. I mean, that's what Adam did.

You know, he was a, you know, he was a farmer. He grew grapes. You know, this is, but we are participating in the, and anyone who doubts that. Anyone who would mock the idea of garden planting

“as a profound act is just not, has it lived long enough?”

Yeah, I'm not very good at that. I want to start a garden the other night. She had to go and she's like, we water my garden. Took me like 40 minutes, by the way.

But by the end, I was like, man, that was like amazing.

That was amazing. All I did was war the garden. I'm exercising my dominion with the hose. I'm away, man. That's it.

So the, the question of whether God created male and female. Hmm. This is not some minor question. No. And liberating people from the constraints of gender.

It's probably not actually liberation. So what you're saying?

“No, it's, I think it's, it's a, it's a confusion.”

It's sad.

You know, and in fairness, let me, let me take it from a non-political kind of lens of it.

Because it's like, I know that's a cultural movement. Just take it down to a, you know, there are people that, and I'm a deep heart for that. People that have profound confusion in that place. For sure.

And, and broken this in that place and that feel very lost in that place and feel very. And the way Christians talk about it in a sort of argumentative way. Right. You know, like, oh, you're right. We're wrong.

I'm like, dude, that's, that, you know, we can fight a sort of air war. A theological war and have these kind of debates. But at the end of the day, you got to remember, like, we're talking about people here. Right. Right.

And there are legit people that are hurting and are asking real questions in this place. And a lot of them. Yeah. Not a small number. Right.

“And, and I think one of the disservices in the church that we can do is because we get so consumed in the theological debate.”

That, you know, we, we lose the trees and see the forest. Right. And when you look at the trees, is it people? And then come up there. Right.

What would you say to someone who was in your care? Just another human being, your neighbor, as defined by the New Testament, who was questioning his or her gender? What would you say to that person? Presumably, you don't want that person to have to question and you don't want the person to, you know, take the next steps. But you love that person's opponent screaming at the person.

So what do you say?

Well, I'd say the first thing I would say is, well, the first thing I would walk with a profound humility.

Because I know that I'm stepping into a story that has that involves a tremendous amount of shame and a sense of isolation. Because this is something this person undoubtedly had been containing with far longer to far younger age than in solitude. In solitude, which is heartbreaking to think of a child asking theological questions for which they shouldn't be after contend with. Right. Am I going to hell?

Am I, you know, that's, that's like, I, I could, I weep thinking about that. So my heart posture in that is one of deep and profound compassion. Because they didn't, they didn't ask for that. Yeah. And it is, and for those that sit on an opposite side of a theological fence to just comment this with hammer and tongs.

Like, you might win an argument, but bro, you are shattering people and you're winning no hearts in that place. That's right. It is the, it is the God's, it is God's kindness that leads to repentance. And we were scheming. We would be wise to remember his kindness to us before we ever step into a conversation like that.

So what would I say? And by his kindness to us, you mean, they're no better than me. I'm no better than them. That's exactly right. What, what lottery do I know what you're saying?

We were talking last night. Why do we single this issue off, dude? And it's like, okay, but I will like somehow wink at greed or somebody's hurt or my own, you know, or bloodlust or bloodlust or whatever it is. And we can wink at all these things, but like, you know, all those things keep me out of it. Like, I deserve, I deserve hell for all those things.

Right. No, I got it. But for the grace of God, period. And we talked about the things that God saved us from, that we don't like. Like, and the maliability, like, why aren't you dealing with that?

Like, I don't know. I'm not. And I'm thankful. I'm not. But it's agree.

So how do you, what, how do you walk into it? What do you say?

You don't say anything first.

You listen, man. But and you earn the right to be hurt. You earn the right to be hurt. You, you, you so seeds, dude. Listen, and the way you so seeds is you, non-judgmentally listen and you've invite forward.

Who are you? Because that doesn't define you. And you, and you become a safe place and a trustworthy place, not with an agenda. So you can eventually pull this judo move to show them how they're wrong. Because this is not your job.

Right. It's God's job to, to move someone's heart. It's God's job. Like when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he do? Do you think he sat around?

And he, because he just sat around and he ate with the task collectors and the drunkards

and the prostitutes that he sit there and the conversation was him going around the room, telling

him where they were wrong. And he was right. Like, no, that would be a very short hang. Right? That's not a good party.

But no, it's because they liked him. Yeah. And why did they like him? Because he probably listened really well. And he probably sat with him.

And he earned the right to be hurt. And as a prophet, that is a a a wonderful philosophy of ministries. You step in the places like this with the broken and the bruised and the bruised reads and the smoldering wicks as scripture says. And you listen and you end.

And hopefully they come out of the shadows and begin to talk about the struggle.

And you, and you honor it and you love them.

You let, you know, you let the Lord steer it. Like, I would be doing a disservice. So what do you say? Like, I don't know. It depends how who I'm talking to and whatever.

But I know what I wouldn't say. And I know what I wouldn't do. And it wouldn't lead off with a moral lecture on what. Because they, they know. They've contended with those arguments.

They could probably shape those arguments better than I ever could. Because they've dealt with them far longer than far more personal ways. So, yeah, I'd love them well.

“And then, you know, I think, again, what does it mean to do the work of God and places like that?”

It's the same thing in anywhere else. Much of years ago, someone asked me this question. I was working with a, to some chaplaincy work with the soccer team. And he was joking about, what does it like to do the Lord's work? I kind of like, I thought it was a kind of weird question.

And I thought to myself for a minute, I was like, you know what, man? And I was like, you know what, man? I'm not doing the Lord's work. The Lord is doing the Lord's work. My job as a priest, as a pastor, as a Christian, as a man, is to, is to cultivate a heart that knows what it means to listen to the Holy Spirit.

And to see where the Holy Spirit is moving. And just agree with it. And just agree with it. Right? How do we learn that? How do we cultivate that we learn it through the word? We learn it through prayer, we learn it through worship.

We learn it through doing these conversations. We learn it through our relationships with our men, our women, and our marriages. But we tune our hearts as the, as the, as the hymn says, we, Lord, tune my heart to your grace. So I know, I can see it when you're doing it.

And I can just agree with it. And the doors you open cannot be shut. The doors you closed can be open. It just helped me not beat my head against those doors that weren't open. And when I'm dealing with a human heart, it's the same question. How do I, what doors you opening there?

“And how do I talk to them in a way that they need to hear this?”

Not the way that I can be right. Yeah, people have an overwhelming need to be right or desire to be right. I do. It's hard, man. But I know you, too.

I, I look at you with any concern. Yeah, I understand. You imagine the aim to be right. Need to prove your point. Oh, that was a beautiful.

Description of how to actually love somebody rather than, I mean, because I know where you're coming from, which is you want to see people genuinely liberated and not led into their destruction by any, any of these things, you know, and, but you're, we're all fighting against our desire to be right,

really. That's what it comes down to. Oh, yeah. 100%. Can I say one thing though that I can't resist?

So Jesus, there's this moment where he says,

“you know, won't anyone who leads the, the children astray?”

And you do feel like when you're looking at people who are beset by any of these agonies with compassion, I mean, if you're, you know, you look at them with compassion.

And I feel less compassion for that person.

I'm just going to say that. There's a lot of voices, man. And I would, there's a lot of people that will, vehemently disagree with me. And that's okay.

But I would just say that as people ask those questions about their own life and they're going through, you can easily find someone to affirm the path that you're going down to. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's so many different flavors and denominations and expressions of that. Like, you want someone to prop up your lifestyle and give you the illogical and biblical justification,

like, you don't want to scratch, scratch very deep to find someone to do that.

“But that's why I think it's so important that we, that's why I'm, like I said, I'm a Bible nerd.”

And I think it's so important that that it's, it's scripture alone, man.

We have to, we have to go, you know, we have to go to scripture and test it. Everything against measure, everything against what we're hearing in the world. What you're hearing from me, what you hear from, you know, the church and leadership. Like, I'm not, I'm not scripture, right? I'm not like, what's right, what's wrong?

Who gets to answer that question? Who gets to be the one to answer that question? Do I get to answer that question? No, it is, God gets to answer that question. Okay.

So that's, we can all agree. Most people will stack hands, God's.

And one to get to answer that question.

Okay. How does God answer that question? Does the answer it through me? He answers it through his word. Right?

“He answers it through, that, that's how God has taken a knee.”

And he has written this redemptive historical sort of incredibly rich dynamic gift to us that's called the Bible. And if, if we are people that want to understand what it means to, to ask these questions to move in these directions and to do it with any, any truth and integrity. We have to measure what we're hearing against this, you know, it's, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind through the scriptures.

It says Romans. And so we can test and, God's good and perfect will. We can test it. Is this God speaking to me? Or is this some, you know, new, fangled cultural moment that's just trying to, like, you know,

vie for air dominance right now or whatever. You know, you know what I'm saying? Of course they have. So, addiction. This has been a feature of humans describing the Bible.

So it's, you know, it's been around since people have been around.

“I think, but it does seem like a bigger factor in the lives with Americans than 40 years ago.”

I mean, I know that it is because there's just a lot more ways to get addicted. And there's less cultural resistance to addiction than there's ever been. And so, like, entire generations are getting destroyed by it. More things that are more obvious things to be addicted to that aren't just substances, exactly. So, how big a presence is addiction in your experience, counseling.

I mean, it's, it's just part of it, you know, and it's a, you know, doing what I do. Obviously, you encounter, you know, when people come into my office and then knock on my door, very rarely it is like, "Hey, I have a question. Why in the book of numbers did someone say, "You know, why don't molasses hold up a golden, you know, it's serpent or whatever." It's rarely questions like that. It's more like, "Are you psyched when it is, though?"

Yeah, actually, that's a lot easier, right? It's a lot easier because, but it's, people are coming in with it. You know, they can't keep their cheese on their cracker, man. And they're saying, "Hey, I'm addicted to this or my marriage is coming apart." So, addiction is, it's a, you know, again, you've got substance abuse, you've got alcohol,

you've got people that, you know, opioids now, which is insane, you've got these things, you know, the list is endless. Gambling, pornography. Gambling. The pornography gambling is huge. That is, God, that scares me because of just the online stuff. You see that? I haven't, I have seen it.

It's not something that I have faced, but I know a lot about it. I know a lot of people that have gone that journey and that is one of the most in the various and hard to beat addictions of this gambling. But I'll let to say, but to those that, that contend with addiction, you know, the one thing that I can say, and then I can say this on equivocally, is there is so much hope for people.

It's not a path that you ever want to walk down, but my, my favorite people that I deal with are my friends in AA, or my friends in, you know, they're in NA, or that have gone through recovery. That have had, you know, all their self-righteous pretenses stripped down. That have been brought down to the studs who have, you know, blown up their lives.

And they've been on this redemptive journey. I always talk to you.

“Obviously, would you please come and join my church? Would you please come?”

Oh, do we be a part of Michael, do we need this? Like the church needs to be a hospital, not a showcase? I've never been to a church as Christian as some AA meetings I've been to. I agree with you. And it's, you know, church needs to be a place where we can get blood on the walls. And you know what I mean, but that way we can, we can tell the truth. You know, church is not designed to be an AA meeting, and AA meetings are not designed to be church.

But there are aspects of it where the humility and the honesty, the honesty, the where people can come in and walk through the doors of a church and say, This is populated by people that I could sit in a room full of men or a room full of women, a room full of couples. And I could have a human yard sale of what I've done and who I've been in my life. And I would be met with love and grace and people looking at me and saying,

I want to hear more of that. When I show you the most wretched parts of me, it doesn't push you away, but it draws you closer because you're able to look me in the eye and say, Yeah, I get it, man, me too. You know, and that's, that is, you know, that's, because what that does is does a lot of, you know, our biggest, most, you know, with a ditch in a specially and, you know,

be at pornography gambling, alcohol, whatever it is, you know, I don't think it's fair to put sweets. It might, it might be a little too much. But it, it is, it breeds so much shame. Yeah, I know, right?

“It breeds so much shame. And that's what's sin does.”

It breeds shame. He read the story in the garden when Adam eats of the tree,

the knowledge of good nievel. He runs. What's the first thing Adam does?

Is he run and he hides in the bushes? Yeah, he hides. And the God comes in and he asks the question, and he asks the question, is Adam, where are you? What do you, why are you hiding? He'll pro tip. Anytime God asks the question in scripture, he already knows the answers.

He does. But he, what he needed, Adam disease, he need Adam to see the answer. And Adam comes out and he says, what, he says to him, he says, why were you hiding? And it hurt, Adam's in the garden. There's one rule in the garden. Don't need it. This tree, the knowledge of good news.

And Adam's broken that rule, sin enters in the eyes. And when God asks, why are you hiding? The logical answer is, I just broke the one rule. That's not what he says though. He says, I was naked and I was ashamed.

And a paraphrase that he was saying,

“I wasn't hiding because I have done something wrong.”

I'm hiding because I am something wrong. And I could not bear for you to see me. And if you saw me, you would reject me and I would be alone. And that is the most foundational cry of the human heart, which it was the cry of Jesus from the cross when he became sin.

When he truly became like us and he absorbed the sin of humanity. And he quotes the Psalms and he says, my God, my God, the cry of dereliction, why have you forsaken me? Could have said anything in that moment. But it was this cry of our deepest, long ago.

Leave me like this shameful thing that I am. So going back to the A.A. The biggest poison that leads to addiction and it's this shame engine that drives us. And I don't want to feel it.

So I drink and I feel more shame. And I drink more and it just becomes a cycle. But when you get into these rooms and you're able to have, like I just said, like you have a yard sale. And you're able to say, this is one of them.

I'm Billy, I'm an alcoholic. Or I'm Tucker and I'm of this or whatever it is. And you can lay that out in front of a group of people. And they sit there and they don't run away. And they don't give you the rejection that you think

that you deserve that pushed Adam into the bushes. It just sweeps the knee of your shame. And all of a sudden the thing that Satan meant for evil, God means for good. And the place of your greatest destruction,

your greatest fears, your greatest self-sabotized, becomes the place where life grows. Like tell me there's not a living God. Tell me there's not a God that is using the tools of the enemy against him.

It makes us more than conquerors. That's a beautiful. And so do I encounter addiction? Yeah. And when I find guys that have been through the river, I love them.

Me too. I want more of them. I feel exactly the same way. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. So you made, I think, the most of, profound thing you said was the core human fear is don't leave us alone.

And that the first thing that God saw that was wrong with creation

was Adam's solitude. It's not good for men to be allowed. It does feel like people are more alone. Oh. Where isolated,

why as men?

Because we are scared to be found out.

You know, men we live in the same way. You know, that description I just said of Adam. He's like, you know, there's something that's, you know, I'm not something right.

It's said, Adam, on this course that I have to become, it's on me. I've got to become this ruthless quest for validation. And that's the sort of spiritual genetic heritage

that we've all received.

“I think it's all men we are born with this idea of that,”

this, I'm incomplete. And it's on me to, to be enough. And I'm terrified, isn't that, you know,

I won is, but, you know, as a man, I spent much of my life. Too much of my early life. Terrified that people would see that I don't have it all together. Like we, we all like have,

two things to comment. One none of us have it all together.

And the second is we all want everyone around us to think we do.

Of course not. And the idea and the fear that is if I, that you see that, the same fear that Adam had, that you would see something that you found undesirable

and you would abandon me. And I would be left alone. So as men, we've become so artfully skilled at working side by side. And you're doing acts of, you know,

you know, working side by side. And, you know, playing golf together and doing all these things. But just know nothing about each other's lives. I think that's right. But if I could just be the liberal for a moment and blame society also,

“I think the structures have completely changed in the world around us.”

And I think it is more and more difficult for men to find the chance to be with other men. Yeah. Just men. I mean, that is total.

Well, by the way, it's measurable.

Well, it's an ancient problem. I think one of the great unspoken miracles in Scripture is that Jesus as a man in his mid-30s had 12 best friends. (laughs) All right. Like how many men in their thirds, like the last most men.

I spent a lot of time ministering with men. I love it. It's one of my favorite things is that one of the, one of the last times that men remember having real relationships was back in college.

I know. There's last time. And then they step into the workforce. They get married, which is wonderful. They have children, which is wonderful.

But they lose sight of the importance of male relationship. They lose sight of, they lose sight of the value of why you need men around you. And this is something that Jesus demonstrably demonstrated that and his 12 disciples.

That was, you know, he illustrated a lot of things with that. But almost basic level, it was just, hey, we need that. You read Mark chapter two. What is the story of Jesus in Copernan? He's there and he's teaching in the house.

And it's packed. And there's people banging in the windows. And no one could get in there out. And there's, there's a man who's been paralyzed. And they can't, there won't Jesus to heal him.

And they can't get to him. So his friends, his four friends, there are however many friends it was. They pick up the mat and they, they grab the corners of the mat. And they carry their friend. And they go to the roof of where Jesus is teaching in this house.

And they begin digging. And they tear the roof off. You can imagine Jesus just feeling the chunks coming down. And he's like, what's going on? And they're like, our friend is hurt.

And my friend needs you. And they lower this man down.

“If I were to go down the street, how many men do you think?”

And I pulled randomly. How many men do you think would have mat carriers? I do. I do too. Thank you for being one of those mat carriers.

Yeah. Well, we saw this coming 40 years ago. You saw it coming. No, I just knew that men in there. Because I saw it among men I knew and respected and loved.

They would get, you know, to middle age. And then old age. And they had no real male friends. And so we decided. A five of us in college, which is not not not going to happen.

And we set up a pretty complex structure to maintain that friendship. And we did. We sure did. And for, you know, 40 over 40 years now. And so that really went on profound things in my life.

But I just know, I really feel like I'm one of very few 57 year old men. I know who has like four best friends for real, though. Not at, but not kind of academically my best friends. But like people I see regularly, who are the Godfathers of my children. Who we, you know, travel somewhere in the world every single year.

Or if I needed it money or whatever I need. And I will say, you know, it's a brag, but it's not bragging. It's just the nature of it of those four men of five men. All five are still happily married. That's true.

All five have children who respect them. All five are just basically happy. Yeah.

“And I think it's the in part the results of those friendships.”

Oh, that's been one of the the single most profound gifts of my life. Partly, any was funny about that group of our group of five guys is you couldn't find five more different people. Yeah. Great. And the beauty of it was the commitment and the covenant where we pushed this exactly.

But we were 20 years old. We didn't know what we were saying. And we pushed in and we said, all right, we will not break this. This this this covenant is vowed with one another until we die until we die. And we have not and we will not.

But the thing about it is you think about all the seasons of life where we've been through and all the incarnations of. Birth and births and deaths and you know, all the transitions and. You know, all the tears that have been cried and all those things that, you know, we've won and we've lost and. And then and the how the world has tried it can aspire to pull our relationships apart just by proximity. But we've really held it at and for me, I know personally, I just say knowing.

In those dark places that I could always just reach out.

Oh, yeah. And just knowing that you're there and knowing that the other guys are there. It's been such a gospel expression. The number of time I talked about earlier, you remember saying about how. You know, Jesus comes. He saves us from our sins. He saves us from, you know, breaks the back of sin and death. But, you know, foundation, he's saving me from myself.

And the reason one of the reasons I love our friendship is the number of times you guys have stepped in and kind of saved me from my own decisions. And they're right. Yeah. Just being able to speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that or, you know, just loving each other through hard times. And I mean, you know, losing my number of my dad died.

“I will never forget it. It was just in the last January and walking into that church was packed and turning around and seeing you guys all sitting on the row.”

It just shattered my heart, man. And it was beautiful way. It was a huge gift to me, man. Yeah, it used to be. Yeah. No, it's been absolutely incredible.

Yep. I can go on a credit book about it. Never well. Never talked about it in public before.

But the only reason I'm saying that is not to brag, but just to say, because it's not anything. You know, I've just been the beneficiary of it. But I think it's worth saying it out loud. That like in some sense, it's different. Obviously, totally different from marriage.

But it's the same in the sense that it's the product of a covenant of a promise to other people that you're just going to abide by. And like when you have like a six month old and your buddies are like, you know, this year we're meeting in Barbados or wherever we're meeting. Hard for Connecticut. And your wife is like, what? Yeah.

You know, come on now. You've got three kids in the class. They cost you something to be there. Big time. Yeah.

And you save them something for a lot. A lot. They think they've paid up many times. All five of them support it because they see it's fruits. But to say to your wife, I'm sorry, this is a commitment that I made.

And she's like, and you never want to make your wife manage, especially when she just bore your child.

And then you do it. And like that. So it does take some sacrifice, not small sacrifice. No, a tremendous. And it's so essential.

But the dividends are are so exponentially more. I mean, at going back to we're saying like the importance of. You know, it's a male relationship in that is the promise. You know, in the same way we talked about pornography or addiction. One of the things is it pushes you in isolation.

Like isolation's a bad thing. Yes. And for us as men as masculine beings. You lose perspective on your own masculinity and your essence of self and your own role as a husband and your own role as a father. And it's essential that you have good.

And so the man that can serve as mirrors and reflect and just kind of play catch with you. A little bit on these ideas. And it's actually or you you get in your own one man echo chamber. And you start feeling crazy. Then you start feeling the shame.

I'm not doing this ride or I don't know.

“And then you start living out of caricature of what you think you should be versus what you kind of really are.”

And the next thing you know, you want to talk about like we're out of marriage problem start.

And for I think having those healthy relationships for men certainly for me has done a tremendous amount and give helping me have a healthy marriage because it's helped me regulate my sense of self and like and also just like my sense of my veins sense of self. I got famous in my 20s. I didn't expect to be famous. I got famous. It's been I would not have handled that well.

Well, I don't think I don't think I did.

“But if it hadn't been for you guys, I think I would have been totally off the deep end, completely off the deep end.”

And and I was for sure married good women yeah for sure, but you know, I know a lot of married men who.

Your buddies are a little different from your wife because your wife is never thankfully.

No, I think it's harder for your wife to like stop it. But you go see your buddies and you're like, who's to cable television shows like cable. I don't care at all. It's just so good. Yeah.

So important. And I think what I, you know, I think this was kind of baked into the cake with us because I mean, we met when we were 17 or whatever. Right. And met, you know, we were very unimpressive at the time. Not that we're very impressive now.

But what happens is it's is that and I think one of the values of this friendship and everything is values of any male. If I could just elevate this one aspect. Yes. Is that we love each other and we respect each other, but we're not overly impressed. Right.

This might be hard for people to understand, but like when we get together, we will rag on it. We will bust each other's chops in a way that only people that have that kind of relationship. That's dude, right? Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you know, lovingly humiliate one another. And continuously. Continuously.

Yes. And so, but I think there's, there's a huge value to that. And it's, and so for male relationship where I'm talking about, I'm not, it doesn't have to be some giant therapy session. It just has to be men that see you that are, there have the ability and willingness to speak that truth into you and say, you know, no, dude, you're not all that. Or, dude, about 10 years ago, I was, you know, I decide one of my children's like, you're going to get off the nicotine.

And I was like, I knew that was, it was obviously it's wrong to get off nicotine. But I could take it. So I get bullied by the nicotine.

I did, I really did. I always have.

But anyway, this one child's like, you know, it's bad for you. Okay. Which it's not. But anyway, I get off nicotine and immediately go crazy and get fat. And I kind of knew that I was crazy, but I didn't quite realize how fat I was.

Because no one in my world said one word to me about it.

“And I was like, man, I think my pant shrunk.”

Whatever. We go skiing and I'll never forget it. We're on the tree get off the tram in Jackson. Wyoming. And you know, the five of us, whatever skiing.

One of us lives out there. And so, anyway, get off. And I'd really think one of them. One of them turns me goes, dude, you're fat. And I was like, I don't think I'm fat.

What? Because look at your fat. It's disgusting. And I was like, I'm not fat. You've got to throw your leather system, man.

Fuck. I'm on TV every day. I don't think that someone tell me if I was fat. Dude, you're fat. Someone in the telling you.

And I remember this. I went and bought a tent of coping at that night. And immediately, you know, lost some of the weight. But the point is, it was the only person who would tell me that. And such is so gently too.

I think everybody else noticed. I mean, obviously everyone else noticed. But now, one person said, one word. Yeah. But she said, but you know, do you know why he did that?

Let me go back to the use of that phrase. So great to learn the right. Oh, yes. He was a say, because you knew he loves you. Right.

And he knew he cared. And you got father to my son. Yes. No, I know. No, you're talking about.

Right. Yeah, you're mad. Yeah, he's got a fat dude. I agree. Anyway, yeah, what an incredible blessing.

And I hope this, this conversation doesn't make other people feel. Well, I don't know. It's just true. And so I'm glad we did. It is true.

I say that. I think I hope we have a people here. They hear this as an invitation. Right. They, whether you're young or especially young people, like lock in man, find your, find your,

find your, you know, your, your, your mat carriers. Yes. Find your mat carriers, man. And because you're going to need them. Because you're going to, because one day you're going to be carrying that,

the mat for that guy, but I promise you, your day is coming. Or you're going to be on the bat. And you're not going to be able to get up.

“And they're going to need to carry you to where you need to be.”

And it is true. It is true. It is true. It is true. It's sure as I'm sitting here.

And for people that are older. I don't care how old that there are men that are in, if you don't go to a church or you don't have a place where people can, can do that, but didn't, you don't have a community. Then either look deeper in your church or find another one.

Because it is so essential.

And it's so available.

And it just is. And it just, it just takes the risk of of being able to step in. And a willingness to just tell the truth. And also to be a willingness to be the kind of person that can step in. And here's someone else's, as they tell you the truth about their life.

And you love them anyway. Whether it's said graciously or they, you know, are telling you you're fat and a very unceremonious. But it's done with love. And I just think it's, I hear it. I just, I, I say that as an invitation man.

I think it's good.

Why I hope it is because it's one of the most important things I've ever done.

After my marriage, the most important thing.

“So last question and I think it's something I think about a lot.”

But your answer when I asked you, what would you say to someone, to anyone who was thinking, well, maybe I'm trans. I thought your answer was, was wonderful because you approached the person with love. So I want to ask a related question about something that's a kind of trend now. Among people who are really hurting some of whom I, I think are wonderful people, veterans.

And it's the use of like very, very heavy duty hallucinations. Famously, ayahuasca, but there are a bunch of eye to gain, there are a bunch of them. Yeah. To heal them. And the reason that I've never really talked about it is because I want to approach it with that same spirit.

Because these are like some of the best people I know. And also some of the most hurting people and they've done what they were asked to do. In some cases, they've been killing other people and they've been deeply damaged. That's my read.

We spend a lot of time talking about how bad it is to be killed.

I think we spend almost no time talking about how bad it is for someone to kill. But it is bad. And I know a lot of people who've done it and has hurt every one of them. So in that pain or out of that pain, many of them go to hallucinations. It's very heavy duty hallucinations.

And I should be totally honest. I've used hallucinations as a child. And I was totally convinced. That's not for me. That's bad.

I was afraid of it. I did it a lot. And I was really afraid of it. I'm very opposed to it. But I want to be open-minded and loving because I know that they are suffering so much.

So that's the preamble. And my question is, what's your view of that? Um, taking that in pieces, I would say, first of all, you know, medically speaking. Like, I, you know, I don't know. Like the, I know, I've got people that I know that had medication,

resistant depression that had done experimental, but medically directed use of certain things that really help them and with their depressions and things like that. But I don't know enough to speak about that. Um, I would say to someone who's suffering from a PTSD to that level,

or what you're talking about, first of all in the same way. What would I say?

“I wouldn't say much in the beginning because I think it's just so,”

the trauma of that is something they never asked for.

If I could just still have done, you know, the, the care is the great tragedy of it is I would say, it's, it's not your fault. I guess not your fault, in the sense that, you know, you may have done things, but to have those experiences and to be thrust into a context where it's unwindable,

where you're being, you know, you're in war or whatever the context may be, and I know they're nuanced and varied, but like, it's not your fault that you have you bear the sort of intellectual or, or not, or the psychiatric wounds. And those are real. Like those are neuropath ways that are like lit legitimately carved, right?

Like it's a real thing. PTSD is a real medical reality. It's not your fault, calm a butt, sadly. And this is the tearing of it. It's now your responsibility.

So now what are you going to do? How do you choose to step in these directions? And then so far is, you know, the range of treatments. I'm not an expert on that. So I'm not going to speak to that.

But as far as like hallucinogens and you say, "Hi, Oscar, DMT." We're all of a sudden you're meeting figures. Yeah.

“That's what I'm specifically talking about.”

Okay, this is where I have strong opinions. And my strong opinion is that much like I talked about earlier, you know, we live on, you know, we live on a side of a curtain. There's a, there's a, and there are thin places as, you know, like we talk about when I've minister to someone by their bedside.

It's a thin place. You can almost feel that they're crossing over. And that's what the healthics would call a thin place. It's like heaven and earth or the divine or the supernage. The unseen realm and the seen realm or beginning to touch, right?

And that's real. Yeah. And what Jesus says in John 10, he says that, you know, there is that. And there is that. But I'm the gate.

that you want to go through the unseen realm where produces this life and got it, there's a way to do this. And it's through me.

“And if you try to climb over the walls and you try to get in in any other way,”

hmm, you're doing that. Guess what you're a robber and you're a thief. And you're trying to gain the things of God without God. And you're trying to gain access to the divine and the unseen and all the, all, you want the cookies and the cookie jar, but you don't,

but you're not going through the gate. And what I would say is you read stories about DMT and you read people.

And I, you know, I've never done that.

And I, but I know people that have doubled in that quite a bit. And I know that when you hear encounters that I've crossed over. And I've had this encounter with all these beings. And there was this. A purple woman that I talked to and I developed this race.

It was like I was there for years, but I was almost there for 10 minutes. And then somebody else goes and has the same. Trip and goes in and he comes back and says, hey, I met a purple woman who knew your name and was asking about you. What's that?

That's document. Real, I know people that many people. Right. So what I'm telling you is there. This isn't just some psychiatric mind-bending.

Access as you're actually crossing. You're, you're not going through the gate. You're crawling over the fence. But in your real path into a real, into a real place. That is demonic.

And those are your, you're encountering. I think it's a demonic experience. And I think it's a dangerous one because what's so dangerous. What's so dangerous about it. And this is, it's not your imagination.

“That's what you're not your imagination.”

That's what you're not your imagination. That's what you're not your imagination. That's what you're not your imagination. So when Jesus, so you read and, you know, the book of Deuteronomy or another place that was says, you don't practice necromancy, don't do magic.

Don't get involved in, you know, terror cards or all that kind of stuff. What he's not saying is there's no power there. What he's saying is actually the reason it's a warning is there's a lot of, there's a lot going on over there. And it's, but it's really dangerous.

And it's not of God. It's not of Jesus. And it's dangerous. And it will, and the, what's so dangerous about it is that it, the people that encounter this,

generally speaking, and people, this isn't, you know, first many people that are different experiences.

But when people step into those places and they have these encounters. They have these, this profound sense of enlightenment. They feel special. They feel seen. They feel good.

They feel, oh, and it's just like, it's like a taste they get. It's like the crack dealer given the taste on the playground. And then the kid just gets deeper and deeper.

“And what they think is giving them life is really hollowing them out from the inside.”

And I think what's happening in those experiences is that the deeper you go. And you, you will, one day wake up and discover that you have been dabbling in, in a demonic realm that, that promised you life, but is act and inside and progression and enlightenment. But it has really been hollowing you out from the inside, taking you away from the source of light,

taking you away from the source of forgiveness of redemption that is only in Jesus. And, you know, distorting the image in which you were created. And I think it's a dangerous place. And I would, I, that scares me for people to do that. Especially those, like I have a lot of compassion for people like Abergyne or people that are in PTSD.

And again, if there's a medical shallow into that pool that has some that's not, you know, running through the, you know, the unseen realm. And so, I mean, I don't know. But if there's, but people that are do that regulation that go, they're on the some spiritual safari to go into that place.

I'm like, man, I would, I would caution you against that. There, there, that's one place you don't need to go to know you don't want to be there. I'm in. Reverend Billy Serveny.

A phrase I never get tired of using.

It's one that still feels ironic to me. God bless you. God bless you, man. Love you, good to see you.